Jimmy Iovine

27:00And this guy, Elliot Shiner's there, and he's making the wreck. And I said, what is he, what is that? Because he's a recording engineer. He's got these big knobs, you know, and he's turned the buttons and hit the... And this point is it like four track or eight track? No, no, it's eight and sixteen. Eight and sixteen. It's nineteen seventy one. Okay. Ninety seventy two. Maybe you just eight track. Yeah, maybe eight track. Yeah, probably, probably eight. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, probably eight track. And I saw that he had a leather bag. And I'd never seen a leather bag before, especially on a guy.

27:32Yeah. He said, wow, look at that. And at the end of the session, a girl, this really pretty girl came in. And he said, oh, okay, I'm going to go, I forgot her name, whatever it was. And they left. I said, I don't know what this is, but I want that. Yeah, at that moment, I just said, I got it. Yeah, the whole life he's, you saw all in one. Yeah, the guy had a leather jacket, a leather bag, you know, clothes, right? I'm sorry. You're telling me, I'm superficial. I don't know what to say. You know, I'm going, I'm Italian. I'm going for the shit, you know what I mean? It's great. I'm about looking for substance.

28:08No, you know, I'm looking for a gig to get out of Brooklyn, get some money and buy clothes. Yes. All right, so that's it. So anyway, so Ellie Greenwich got me a job in that studio. Amazing. Right? So what happens is I get a 90, 90, I'll tell you a great story though. I get a 90 day trial in that 90 day trial. One day an assistant, I was below an assistant at A &R. An assistant couldn't make it in. So the assistant, no, the engineer couldn't make it. So the assistant did the job. I became the assistant. It was a Saturday. It was James Brown. Wow. Right? So I'm in there. I just terrified of everything.

28:52Not just James Brown. A object fear. I don't have to do anything. Of course. Right? So so we do the vocal. Every time he would come into the control room and sit in the directives chair, this guy would pick his hair because the headphones would dent his afro. Yes. Right? So we do that. Had towel around them. There was a guy that just just put towels around them and stuff. You know, even in the studio, because he had that on stage too. No, no, no, no. In the studio. Absolutely. Wow. Tap his forehead. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. First time I ever saw anything like that. I was like, wow, that's incredible.

29:24It's incredible. As he's leaving the studio, well, for tell me more about how James Brown unbelievable. Was it like, could you believe what you were seeing? No. The guy would in the vocal group dancing, singing, you know, and just being James Brown. Unbelievable. Right? It was unbelievable. Right? It was incredible. So at the end of the session, I'm cleaning up the guy walks over to me. I think the guy's name was George, but I could be wrong. The guy walks over to me, puts $50 in my hand and says, Mr. Brown wants you to have this. How cool is that? Right? He's 50 brown. So I go home and I run the next morning, Jerry DeCat, my drummer, comes over to my house, and I looked at him and I said, I'm going to be rich here.

30:12Okay? What do you mean you're going to be like, let me tell you something. I got $50. Let's talk about how much $50 was then. 1972. What would it be like today? What would it be? I don't know. I got to look it up. In your estimation, the feel based on the feel of it. I mean, probably, I guess let me talk it to it actually. Probably $250. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like money. Yeah. A lot of money. You know, like if somebody gives you a hundred bucks, somebody gives you a 200 bucks, 250, that's how it feels like real money. Absolutely. You could buy something in Gucci or something. What were you making in the studio just to...

30:46Oh, two dollars an hour. Okay. Okay. So to put in perspective. Yeah, four dollars an hour. So I got home and I said, okay, you know what I mean? I'm going to work every day. $50 a day, I got chalk in the street. $50 a day times 365. On top of my salary, I never got a tip again. Of course. But I had no idea. But you were inspired. Because when you come from that world, Rick and so do you, you don't know anything. There's no sophistication. I didn't go to school. I walked into this place because she told me to. And I'll tell you, even for the people who came from a more substantial background, no one tells teachers you had to be successful.

31:35Because nobody knows. Not close. Nobody knows. Especially in that world. Yeah. They were, I mean, you know, it was crazy, right? I mean, my mother and my sister before I went to work. Literally, because I was brought up as the prince in an Italian family with a bunch of women, right? My aunt, my cousins are downstairs. They told me how to sweep the night before the gig. They told me how to literally have a sweep. Because I knew I had to sweep. I said, I don't know how to sweep. You never made me sweep. No, of course. So they told me how to sweep. Amazing. It's pretty primitive. Right? So cool.

32:19Mr. Brown wants you to have this. Mr. Brown wants you to have this. How cool is that? Unbelievable. I wish I kept it, but I needed it. But um, so 89th day, I get fired. The guy says to me, his name was Don Hahn. Right? He said to me, he was a chief engineer. He was everybody's boss. He said, you know, I'm sorry. He said, this is not for you. So I said, look, my father said, because I had left college, I said, my father said, if this doesn't work out, I've got to go back to school before I come home. Yeah, what you don't want to do. He said, I don't know what to say. You know, because remember, I left school because of the draft.

33:04I got a high number in the in the lottery. I got like 265 and they didn't draft up until like 180. So the day that happened, I left school and went to work. So he said, sorry, you know, so I'm leaving. And this is where, this is where I got into the Rock and Roll of Fame recently. And I said on a speech, I said about mentors and helping kids just be a mentor to kids. Because this woman, Ellie, granite, I colder up on the way home. But think about this for yourself. I called from a pay for, I said, Ellie, I was really, I was just sort of crying. Yeah, of course. I got fired on the 89th day. She says, hang up, call me back in 10 minutes.

33:45She called a record plant. I called her back and she said, don't go home. I went, she says, go to 321 West 44th Street. Ask for Eddie Germano and Roy Cicalla. I walk in there and they hired me. Wow. Unbelievable. How long did you work director plan? Oh, then I, that was where my career started, you know, because it was 1973 at that point. And I worked on the record plant until I came to California. I was an inch. I was a studio. I was a staff engineer. Yeah, yeah. I was a staff engineer. And then I started producing at the record. How did you get trained as an engineer? Roy Cicalla. Roy Cicalla was the greatest engineer teacher ever.

34:31Very eccentric guy. So eccentric that he had like, we didn't know what it was. It was an OCD. I didn't know what OCD was, right? He wouldn't like touch things that other people touched, you know, stuff like that, right? When he wanted to train you, you became his assistant. And it was like literally like boot camp. It was hard, right? But he liked me. So now I'm in the studio. He's teaching me. But because he doesn't want to touch everything, he would make me do it. I see. So give me 2 dB at 10 ,000. Which worked out great for you because you have all the hands on experience. Right. Amazing. Right.

35:11I'm learning how to. So lucky. Bizzale. Series of events that are like these magic. Right. Bless. And you're the man that felt for me, you know, which was my sister used to call me and felt to Earth, rather. And so now I'm really learning because I've got to be I'm 24 seven with this guy. This guy was the busiest engineer in New York City. Yeah. And you know, he's doing John Lennon and he's doing anybody who came to the record plant wanted him, right? So well, this other guy, Shelley Akas, you know, Jack Douglas was an engineer there. The guy who produced John Lennon and Arrow Smith. Yeah. Guy who produced walked this way.

35:51Yeah. Jack Douglas, right? So I see him still. Great. And he put me on everything. And then one day he was going to California. No, first they brought me in because he had another assistant who something happened ended up taking him off the project. And he brought me in on mind games at the end. Wow. And that was September of 73. And this is after you basically the reason you're doing this is because you see the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. Yeah. And now you're in the studio with John Lennon. That's right. That's right. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. I didn't think they were the same person.

36:36It was just too much. It was too much. Yes, too much. So, you know, I'm just like, how do I not get thrown out of this room? Because I've been thrown out of a few rooms. I'm sweaty Rick. How do I not get thrown out of this room? Yes. How can I just over do it? How do I just serve? Yes. You know, how do I just be of service? Yes. Right? Tee, I learned how to make John Lennon's Tee. He wouldn't let anybody else make it. I timed it exactly. You know, like I was like the way I am about everything. I was about that fucking Tee. Yeah. You know, and so everything, the mics, the thing, you know, whatever Roy told me, you know, right in on the boxes doing it, you know.

37:23And then as time went on, Roy, like all of us, which I know you've done, I know we've all done it, starts to get old a little bit. And you just start handing off things to other people. So now, right after that, it's crazy thing happened with Lennon, is Morris Levy, Sue John, over I believe it's come together and Chuck Berry can't catch me. He said he ripped them off, right? So they made a settlement and Morris Levy said, I want you to do an album of my songs, because he had the Morris Levy, was he? Is that why he did those songs? I didn't know that. Yeah, nobody knows that. The Rock and Roll album.

38:09Yeah. Yeah. So now, he decides he wants to use Phil Spector. Phil Spector will come to New York. Roy says, I want you to come with me to California, because you'll set the studio up for me. I want it to sound exactly like the record plan. I see. I don't go there. I want you to turn it into the record plan. Yeah. And what was the studio in LA? And and M studio A. Wow. This is a full circle story where you get to the unbelievable. Yeah. So now I'm in there. And the first day, I've got to, I go to the studio, I get, I start tuning the speakers, right? Cause I learned how to do that. So, and so now I'm tuning the speakers to get in the sound.

38:51Like I know Roy likes him to sound. So I'm playing mind games. Yeah. I'm playing some other records that I assisted on with him. He got eight. Was that your first time in California? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, he put John put me at the Beverly Hills Hotel. Amazing. In a bungalow. Amazing. I had just turned 20. Amazing. Right. I didn't know. I'd never been on a plane. Never been on a plane. Never been to a hotel. I was once to the host motel in Philadelphia with my mother. But other than that, and you're still living at home with your mom at home. Oh yeah. This is amazing. Oh yeah. No, in Brooklyn, in that house.

39:32Amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So now I'm in the studio. Okay, now I got to go get the setup. So I got to go to Phil's house in Bennington Canyon. I think you've never met him before. I've never been to a big house. Yeah. I've never nothing. Nothing. So now there's a gate and there's a driveway. He lived on Bennington Canyon somewhere or somewhere around there. So I go there and I go in the foyer and I said, I'm here to see Phil's back there. Who's that? But he's talking. I don't see him. He's talking from the upstairs. I said, I'm here. I'm here. I'm behalf of John Leonard and Racer Culler.

40:10I need to set up for tomorrow. Okay, eight musicians guitar based, three guitar, I said eight musicians. I said, okay, anything else? No, I leave. I got a and M the next day and I'm setting up. I made it look like I'm telling you it was a painting. Every cable wired. You couldn't trip. If you wanted a trip, every microphone, every music stand, every echo tuned, every patch chord in, every piece of equipment, tape everywhere written down, I was nuts about getting this right, right? So now I'm the first one in the studio. Two guys walk in, four guys walk in, three more guys walk in, 36 guys walk in.

41:03Musicians. Yes. We have for the full spec the session. We have for the full spec the session. Wow. I'm like, what? Phil, which is how he records, went from when I left his house to the next morning, hired 36 musicians. Unbelievable. Eight guitar players, two drummers, how blame and Jim kelpman. Wow. Okay. Two bass players. Six horns, three pianos, Leon Russell and Barry Mann. Wow. Playing the piano. Okay. Three background singers, Sher Harry Nielsen, and I forgot who the other one was. Unbelievable. Right. So now, I'm like, oh, fuck, so I got a rearrange. I said, give me an hour. I'll rearrange.

41:52I get some help from the studio, the kid that worked from the studio, et cetera. That's a lot of setting up. That's a big session. Oh, man. That's a lot. That's a lot live. Yeah. Live. How about 36 headphones? Yeah. How about bouncing the headphones with only two headphone buses? Impossible. You know, it's like. It's very, very difficult task. It's not 36 strings. Yeah. It's 36 musicians. Yeah. Banging. Yes. Right. So. Wow. Now Phil comes in. And this one on every night. So he comes in. Now these guys, everybody knows this story. Is John there yet or no? Yeah. John's already there. Yeah. Now no one, it wasn't there when the 36 guys came in, but I was in my job, the telling me where my job was it's ready.

42:45But he really trusted me. So him and Roy were both really, really patient. It made really good with me. So they were always very kind to me. Roy was tough, but John was always really, really kind. So now Phil comes in. And first, he's got it on a white butcher's coat. Like a meat cutting butcher. Yeah. Okay. A coat. Yeah. Right. And when everyone that gets my, so now the band starts playing, they're doing like Boni Moroni or something like that, right? One of those songs. And there's four tape machines, two quarter inch tapes with slap, because Phil liked a lot of slap. And John liked a lot of slap, right?

43:25But when everyone that he gets up, now we're at the, we're at a stand -up console in Studio A. At the time, there was a stand -up console. We both had to run the console, because there's too much for one guy. Of course. You don't have that many hands. You don't have that many hands. There's like 36 pieces. I mean, no such thing as automation. We had four guitar players on one bus. We had no choice. So we had to bounce it from outside. We had to just move the mics in and out. Yeah. You know, it was real, real analog. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When everyone that are attention, he had a boat horn. The air horn, yeah.

44:02Yeah. Those are loud. Unbelievably loud. So now I'm like, now you're scared, right? You don't know what the... I need going deaf. I mean, if you're... It was horrible, right? So now we're making the album. And then eventually, about a week and a half in, they comes in with the butcher coat, but now he's got gun strap to him, right? They've got two guns strapped to the fucking chest. And again, I'm not scared because I'm too busy. Yeah, you're just working. I'm not giving this job. But how... What was... Did you talk to Phil at all? Yeah, I was too. What was he like? Like you see, there's a documentary out, which is exactly like he's like, there's a new documentary on Phil.

44:46He's like... His voice is high like mine. You know what I mean? It's like that kind of voice. And... You talk fast, he talks slow. Yeah, he's from Philly. You know what I mean? The Jewish guy. He seemed impatient. Yeah, me neither. Yeah. Morocco! My best friend. Shares out there. Hey, who are you? Why? Dreaming at her, you know what I mean? Yelling at this guy. Shut up. No. Hey. Put Barry Man on the ground. Put Leon on the... on the... on the... on the window rolls. Cause that'll fuck with Leon's head. Just chaos. Chaos. Chaos. Chaos. Complete chaos. Yelling at people. Coin sharing. And John got along good.

45:25I'm gonna add that element in too. Right now. Okay. There's the element. Yeah. Alcohol. Yeah. Galons of it. There was a schmurn off bottle. They's about this big. And they just drink it. Drinking the whole time. And this is not a secret. Both Phil and John. And everybody. Right. Everybody. This is an incredible story. No, it is. It's... It's an incredible... I can't believe I know you as long as I know you and I've never heard this story. Not a lot of people know this. This is an unbelievable story. So now he's yelling at everybody and it's crazy. And I'm just trying to get it on tape. Right. And my boss, boss, a very quiet, stoic kind of guy quiet.

46:05And he's like, what is tough sitting there saying, give me this, give me that. John's mic's not working. And I'm running. Like 100 miles an hour into the studio, changing the mic, fixing the mic. You know, you know, you know, number seven guitar play and mic's not working. Give me a new mic. Try a bit. Try something more directional. Right. And also the more people that are there, the more pressure there is, because there's a lot of people waiting around for everything always. Yeah. I'm like, there's a lot... I'm a water tea. I'm like, you know, it's a lot... I'm just picturing how stressful it is for people who don't know the situation.

46:45It's incredibly stressful. And everybody's talking at once. And they were all asking you for something. And the drum is fucking around, so you can't hear anything.

47:00So we record, I don't know, three weeks like that or something like that. Did it settle in at any point? No. No. Stay different. I had to grow out and get the alcohol as well. So I had to borrow the identification because I was only 20 of the guy at the front desk to go buy the alcohol. There was an alcohol. There was a liquor store on the corner. So I had a guy helping me from A &M, but as far as Roy was concerned, and John, it was on me. Remember, I'm only there six months at the record plant. You know, so now... Now Phil, this is even crazier. So Phil, one night, and this is in a book that just came out, the Tony King book.

47:43I don't know if you know Tony King. I don't know if Tony King is. He was the president of Apple. And so now, everybody's really drunk. So it's very... Everybody knows that during this period of time, it was called the last weekend for John that he got you know, John and stuff. And how... Just to like have an idea, how long are the sessions every day? I don't really remember, but you know, we started. I get there at noon, and they'd go to like 11 or 12, you know? So you have a 12 -hour hard day. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so now, Phil goes crazy. I used to drive John home, and then this one night, Phil wanted to drive him home with his bodyguard.

48:24And a book just came out, and you can read about this. John was drunk and he tied him up, right? So now, the album falls apart, right? And... John did not take kindly to being tied up. No, yeah. Did it, neither did anybody around them, you know? And... And it was a nightmare. But up until that time, what was the relationship between Phil and John like? Produced the artist. Yeah. But did, did, was John was going along with all of Phil's craziness, just cool? Yeah. As John was experienced, he was already a beetle. John was into the... Everybody was in that moment, and in that mindset. Yeah. It was out there.

49:06Yeah, yeah. It was really out there, right? So, John was amazing. I gotta tell you, man, there was one day, he wasn't splendid to me. Not one, I did a lot of shit with him. I did the salute to salute grade. You know, I did, I did that TV show with him. I did three albums with him. Wow. You know, so, you know, three albums. There's people on the stand, even people that are listening to this. To live with them. You're sitting next to the guy for three albums, you know, 200 days or whatever it is. You know, no more than that. It was two years. You know, so, you know, he was drinking at the time, you know, and it's no secret.

49:41It's in every book in the world. So now... And this is when he's not with Yoko, is that correct? Right. Because he... Before that, before that, I forgot this. Before that, Phil went to the bathroom and shot the place up, right? During the session, right? Wild. Yeah. Oh, another thing that you would be interested in. During the session, now, David Geffen is going out with Shere, right? Yeah. So, David walks in. Now, I know this is David Geffen, right? Yeah. And A &M, David's leaning against the wall, Phil's behind me. I'm at the headphone console, which is right near the door, right? So, where people understand, I'm in a recording studio right now.

50:25This is not a big room. You know what I mean? But the room was not that much bigger than this. So, David comes in and he starts... He starts yelling, you, that, that, that, David. So, David says something very Davidish. This is Phil is yelling at David. Yeah. And David, very David, says something sarcastic to him, like, I don't know about you, but right now I have number three, four, five, and seven, and eight. Something, something like that. He just pisses him off. And, and, and... And at this point in time, is David have asylum? Is this asylum days? Yeah. No, no, 73? Yeah. Whatever it was, maybe...

51:03Yeah, asylum is, is, is, Big label. Whatever 73 was. He was very successful. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So, Phil goes after him. And then all of a sudden Phil... Physically. Yeah, then Phil goes into a karate stance.

51:24I'm like, holy shit. These people do this too. You know what I mean? Like, I've seen fights of weird shit growing up. You know what I mean? But I didn't know. And people that everybody's crazy. Turns out everybody's crazy. That's exactly right. So now we get thrown out of the studio. Phil, uh, oh, I left one thing out. So it was 73, not, you know, I don't know by you, when you're, this is 50 years ago. So some of the stuff blends together. Of course. Of course. But, uh, so Phil calls me up one day and says, we're canceling the studio. I said, why are we canceling the studio, Phil? I said, every, every older musician is coming.

52:08Do you hear this? I don't hear anything. He goes, this helicopter's over my house. They think I've got the watergate tapes.

52:20I don't even know what the world tapes are. You know what I mean? I'm like, I'm in... But he's completely paranoid. I'm in his zone, right? So it was like stuff like that going on all the time. But anyway, so all the things run together. But all I can say is that John was magnificent to me every day. Every day was the greatest guy. Wanted to teach me. He and Roy taught me together. Like during walls and bridges, Roy's wife had a baby. So he took off six weeks and left me alone with John. And I did all the overdubs on the album. Incredible. Right? So now, you know, I was 21 at this point. No, 21 at this point.

53:08And I'm just like, what a way to learn is to really... Because it's set... I didn't know. I didn't have great taste in music when I was a kid. You know, like, I wasn't the first guy to have the stones record. I wasn't the first guy to hear cream. Like my friend Ali played me cream. You know, I was always a little behind. But I really learned... Ever since those sessions, it's how I made records until I quit making records with the live vocals. So I had to feel the vocal. So John sang live all the time. So I would just wait. We would wait till he got the vocal. And not to be a hundred percent finished vocal.

53:52But the feel was based on the vocal. So everybody's playing off of the vocal. That's right. And you don't get a take until it's right. Right? So I recorded like that my entire life. But those six weeks with... Those six weeks with John, I got really lucky, but I was a little terrified. During those sessions, we would have a getcha through the night. Which is a really fun song. It was a single from the album. And Elton at the time was bigger than you were still. You know what I mean? He was... It was 1974. So he had... I remember, yeah, like, three number one hour. That year, some crazy stuff. And Tony King, again, brought him to the session.

54:31And Elton was going to sing on the session. So... So he sings on the... He comes in and I'm terrified. And John says to me, I said, John... Elton John's coming to the studio. Okay. I said, I'm really nervous. He said, trust me. He's more nervous than you. I'm a beetle. Yeah. And then he told me the story about... And I hope I have the song, the song, right? He said I was recording with Eric or somebody, right? Yeah. I... Did Eric play on Colt Turkey? I don't know. I don't know. But one of those songs... And the guy throws up. Eric throws up. One of the great classic... Jeff Bet, one of those guys throws up.

55:16And John said, I told them, play you bastard! Because he was nervous because he's in the room with me. Because he got to understand. In 1973. Yes. Again, remember the... I told you it's hard to explain the... the Big Bang, of 64. Of the beetles. Being around the beetles in 1970 to 1974. There was nothing like it. I don't know. I've never met a celebrity since. Never... There's nothing like that. There's never been anything like that. No. Those four guys... Right after the beetles broke, even during... I didn't know them during the beetles. But people froze. Fro... musicians froze. Of course. So now we recording the vocals I'm saying to myself.

56:03I never really recorded in a piano without Roy. My boss. I hope he doesn't want to play the fucking piano. Yeah. So I'm the same to myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting though. Interesting. Interesting problem. Right. So now they're... They're facing each other with these two really dynamic microphones. Singing. And if they're wrecking you here, they didn't high pitch the other. They're on a really hot dynamic mic. And I hear Elton say, let me try piano. I'm like, oh fuck. Under the sun of a bitch. So I had to remember how I set it up for Roy. And I just did that. And show you a kind of guy John was.

56:43So Elton walks in and he says, hey, great piano sound. John says, that's why we use them. He's fucking around. You know, because he knew I was nervous, you know. Amazing. But he would just give me a shot on anything and everything. I don't understand it. I don't understand until today. It isn't because I was talented. It's because he liked me. Yeah. And he felt he could trust me. Because he told me that once. He said, you know, working with me, people are going to ask you to get to me. And I can tell you the kind of kid that won't. Yeah. And I learned. Yeah, I was protective of him. Of course.

57:21Well, I didn't know that. But I got it. Yeah. I learned. And you know, what I'm trying to say is that whatever kids are out there trying to do stuff, don't be embarrassed of what you don't know. Because it's charming. And it's open and it's honest. Absolutely. And the people around you would rather hear, you don't know. Or say you do know, I'm blowing something up. Absolutely. You know, so I've always been like that. I always tell everybody we're getting to this. Like I said, man, 1991, I had no idea what fucking hip hop was. I wasn't Russell Simmons. I wasn't Rick Rubin. I landed on it. I didn't.

58:05I said, but the only thing that I saw in hip hop was the whole world should hear this. And I have a record company. And I'm going to spend the fucking money to let everybody hear this. Because when I went to sign a death row, Doug called me and said, look, my entire black music department here says, you're paying so much money. This stuff doesn't, first of all, it doesn't sell more than what the easy album said. It's impossible. And it doesn't travel outside of America. And you're going to get killed. I said, I got to tell you, Doug, I don't believe any of these three things. I said, as a producer, I had nothing, but I had massive hits in Europe and outside of America as a producer.

58:50Matter of fact, you're paying groups like Dio Strach and Simple Mind just to hire me. Because they, I understood for some reason. There's not, well, I don't know what the fuck it is. You know what I mean? But it worked. Right. I was good with those groups. So I said, I don't agree with any. I said, they're going to be dancing to this in China. No, I had no idea. I'm telling you, man, I said this before. It reminded me of Rolling Stones. It was like Mick and Keith. I said, I know these guys are. They scared a fuck outta you. You go in here, but the music, you love the music so much. Are you going closer?

59:21And it was dangerous music. There's always been popular. Right. But when you add black to it, it does another thing. That's what's wrong with the world. It's just the America. But at that, that didn't, I wasn't one of those guys. So I didn't get, you know. So I remember with Drain, when Drain Shug first came in. It was, but anyway, we'll go back to it. We're doing chronological shit, but they anyway. It doesn't have to be. We could jump around and have real life. But I remember when they came in, they had an album finished. Well, Stray and Out of Compton already out as an independent record. Oh, yeah.

59:57No, they were on ruthless. This is when Shug got that quote, got Drain off of ruthless records. I see. Got him off of ruthless records. And they were being sued by, when I made that deal for them, they were being sued by Sony, ruthless, Brian Turner, and a guy named Michael Harris, who attempted murder on his cousin or something. I don't know if I have it wrong, but he was in jail for life. Trump pardoned him recently. Right. I'm just saying that there's a guy. I hear he's a good guy. He's nobody. He was suing that throw as well. So I had a settle all four of those cases with the people. Yeah.

1:00:45So I said, man, fuck that. I believe in these guys. John McClain brought him in. Tell me this was it. I'm good at listening to people. How long did you know John McClain? I know him from A &M. Cool. We did a mix together on YouTube. Nice. The Hollywood remix of Desire. Nice. Wonderful. I mean, just incredible. You make many records for A &M? No. I was just at the studio. Never worked out. Oh, so you made them at the studio. I understand. Built the studio with this guy, Shelley. Yes, yes. Yeah. So now we go and settle out those lawsuits. And let's talk more about what you saw. So you saw the easy re -e record came out first.

1:01:25Then straight out of Compton came out. Those records were blowing up. And they were. I know my my interest in hip hop at that time was at a low point until I heard those. That was like. Oh, well, I didn't I didn't get that either. The first time I understood anything about hip hop is Bonobro at Lear Cohen and Chuck D to A &M studios because they were going to open up for you too. Yes. So I invited them to my house in Malibu. Nice. Right. And I still listen to them talk and I was understanding it but I still didn't get it. Yeah. I'll be honest with you. I didn't. I was producing you too. I want to start a label.

1:02:04Of course. I wasn't I wasn't paying attention, right? And I wanted to get out of producing. And you're all so busy that you your plate was full somewhere else. Yeah. And I was producing. I was doing stuff. The stuff, right? And I was doing the Christmas album. It's very special Christmas. So now it's 1990 or 91. Let's talk about starting the label because that's a big story. Well, what happened to me was I was producing and I was burnt on it. I knew it. I was 18 years and I was burnt. And I just said I had a kid. It was 1988. I had my son, Jamie. And even though they didn't ask me to do it, they told me they were going to Germany to Berlin to do that next album.

1:02:51And Berlin, the wall had just come down. I know it's freezing there. You know, I'm like, oh man, I gotta, I gotta go to Berlin. This guy, because remember, they just almost killed me on the last album, on Rattlenum. I was like, these fucking, it's like four on one. And it's a maddening process. Maddening, right? So we're doing two albums, a live album, a studio album, and a movie. So I just was fried. I said, I'm not doing this. I got an N, something else happened. Because I don't want to sound futuristic and I don't want to sound old phony. Geffin saw this company. Oh yeah. So I was like, wait a minute.

1:03:35I think he does what I do. Yes. He just made all this fucking money, right? And then I said, I'm also not getting, I'm not going to be getting the young groups. You know, when you get to a certain level, the labels don't give you the, they think you're going to be too expensive. And you know, in those days, that's what it was like. The label was to try to avoid you. Get you there a group on the third album, right? When they knew a little bit more. So I said, David, hey, I want to start a record company. You should do it. There are a lot of record people a lot dumber than you. That's inspiring.

1:04:15Right? I said, I believe that, right? And you got to, you also dealt with a lot of record people over the years, even as a producer. Yeah, but when he said it, I'm always a fan of David. And he was always been great to me. So when he said it, I said, first time you met him was when he was in the room with Phil. I didn't meet him. You just saw him. Yeah, you just get you. That's the first time you're in his presence. Yeah, the first time I met him was 1980. John Landau set up lunch for me at La Don. At your request. No, John's request. John said, you should meet this guy. So they, they were starting Gaffin Records.

1:04:50You should meet this guy. He's a great producer. I see. That's what John said. So I met David and we had a very nice, let's say we became friends. Yeah. Right. And he just constantly stayed in my life and it helped me. You know, so when he sold his company, I'm like, man, I introduced me to Ted Field. Right. David introduced you to Ted Field? David talked to Ted first and Ted said, I want somebody to run a record company. Him, Eric, and Eddie Rosenblast that I think Jimmy could do this field. I hear he wants to start a record company. Because I was going to start a record company and he goes through David.

1:05:25Yeah. Originally though you were going to do with Irving. And then Irving. Yes. I remember. That's right. Yeah. That's right. And then I think Motin want me on the, in the, in the game, on that, on Irving's deal. Yeah. I think Mot just felt, I mean, see it, you know, whatever. Right. So I went to Dave and he said, well, it's guy Ted Field. He said, Jimmy's looking to start a label, right? And I meet Ted, Paul McGinnis. You know, things come together. Paul McGinnis also met Ted. I mentioned it, right? So this guy told me to meet Triadis. Everybody kind of supported. But David was the guy that, like he does, focused.

1:06:04Yeah. And I went to him and then I said, David, you know, Doug wants to put up half the money. And David said, do what's right for you? I just saw my company. I don't give a shit. Do what's right for you. Yes. And I took the money from Doug. Yeah. Of course, then it made it easier for Ted. I didn't want to be reliant on one person for the money. You know, that's never safe. Of course. Right. So we did it. You know, remember you calling me and he said, and I can't remember it was a million or a billion, but he said, it must have been billion. I just signed, I just signed a billionaire. Right. Right.

1:06:39Well, Fala, he wasn't, but anyway, but that's what it was. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe he was. Who knows? He had a lot of, but I remember, I would definitely say that. You did. I'm telling you, I was there. I'm absolutely. It was fun. It was, I remember because it was so funny. Yeah. I would definitely say. Yeah. But, um, and I got my first deal. It's not a record company. And then we started in a scope. And John McClaim was with Ted in Tom Wally. And John McClaim walked in and he said, this is the guy. Who's the first bandie sign? Or what were the first group of artists? The first thing we signed, the first thing was Gerardo Rico Swavi.

1:07:14Yeah. And you ever hit out of the box? I wanted to hit. Yeah. I didn't give a fuck if it was the cha cha cha. Yeah. I wanted my promotion team to have a hit. Yes. And it worked. Yes. Then Tom Wally brought in Primus and Helmut. Great. Who were great. Yeah. Then we got two Pock and then we got no doubt. How did two Pock come in? Uh, through Tom. Wow. Tom was a great A &H artist. Yeah, yeah. So was John. Yeah. So I wasn't in the record business. So I didn't know anybody, but they would bring me in. Yeah. And I would get them out of their deals and I would figure it all out. Like this guy that used to do PA for loan was Manning, Manning's loaned justice with me brought Gwen in.

1:07:56I hired him at Innesco. And I went down to No Dows for Horseson. I said, these guys are great. I saw her and they were huge. Yeah. Yeah. But you're saying, you know, you remember those days, right? Yeah. Absolutely. So Dre, you know, Dre and Shud just came to my office and John said, play it and he played me the chronic. And I remember the time because they were friends of yours. I remember I tried to listen to Hank Shockley records. And you know, if you're an engineer and music and rock and roll and you're trying to get everything to be really present and really powerful and the songs are good.

1:08:33You know, the whole subwoof that the whole they didn't have the 808 on the control. I said. And then all of a sudden Dre walks in and it sounds like Pink Floyd. So in the greatest recordings, I'd ever heard any kind of music. Yes. So now I feel like I know something about this. Yeah. Cause Dre's music is not sloppy in any way. It's not like anybody else's. And then and also I don't understand samples. And he everybody's playing live. Got a few things in there. But the bass and drums are players, right? So I'm like, who produced this? He said me. I said, but who engineered it? He said me. I'll never forget it.

1:09:17I said, this guy will be fine in his coat. And that was it that day. As soon as I heard that on my Tanois that I mixed all the albums on that was in my office. I brought them in London. I'm more in Oxfordshire. I bought the I remember I was doing an album with the motors in England. You know, and I heard these speakers. I went to the factory or something I bought them and I knew those speakers. And I just I said, I got to get this. And I set the sugar and Dre. Give me three weeks. Now if you guys fuck around and go to a lot of different labels, I'm going to hear about it and I'm going to bounce.

1:09:51I'll tell you what they kept their word. And I did. And we settled with Michael Harris, Jerry Hela, Sony. I mean, there was a Rico case on these guys. And Brian Turner, priority. I settled with everybody. They were all very happy. I wrote checks, right? And that was it. And then we put the record down. Then the rest is, you know, tell me about Doug. Your relationship with Doug. When do you first meet Doug? CB Nix. Because she was on Atlantic. She was on Atlantic. Doug was already running Atlantic. Or Ahmed was still there. No, he was the head of at go. Doug was the head of at go. And Ahmed was still running Atlantic.

1:10:34At goes associated labels. So they brought in modern records. Danny Goldberg and Paul Fishkin. And they went to Doug. I see. And Danny and Paul and Doug. They asked me to go meet Doug. Because they wanted me to produce TV's out. And they said he wanted me to meet the guy that I was going to produce the out. And I had just done Damotor Appetus. And Stevie loved Damotor Appetus. She loved Tom Petty. So. And you'd never worked with Stevie before this? No. No. Fleetwood Mac was like this giant supersonic. Absolutely. I didn't even know they were English. You know what I mean? Just. I just knew it as out of my range.

1:11:13Yes. You know, background harmonies. You know what I mean? Huge. It was like. Huge. What is that? Right? So. I go to meet her and I get the gig. Right. We're going to finishing up Tom. And I was going to start her. Well, then we ended up doing hard promises first. And it's funny because we share Tom, you and I, you know. And you got him first. What? You had him first. Unfortunately, I'm 10 years older than you. Yeah. I'm going to do a lot of things first. You know, everything. Everything we're talking about. You did first. I'll tell you. You know, I'll birthdays are a day of part. Ten years apart, right?

1:11:51You know, so I meet Stevie. And you know, again, I'm that guy from Brooklyn. I'm working in New York. I just got out the California. Let me tell you about recording studios. I remember that Elliott Shiner. I remember they throw back that story where he had the girl. You know, meet girls in a recording studio. You know what I mean? You just don't. It's like, it's not studio 54. Yeah. It's record plan studio. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So everybody's there to work. And it's your focus. So girls are like some other thing. Yeah. That maybe I could figure that out someday. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't going to happen where you were working.

1:12:31It wasn't going to happen. Anyway, I was 26 years old. You know, I had a, I remember girlfriends growing up and stuff. But yeah, a few girlfriends here and there. But it was. I was just trying to learn how to make records, right? And you're very driven. It sounds like you were very, very driven. I was very driven till the day I retired. Yeah. And that's why I retired. I didn't want to be driven anymore. It was a conscious thing. Nice. So now, I start going out with Stevie. How does that happen? I don't know. I'd have to ask her. Now, Stevie moves into my house. And I'm producing Tom. And you know, Tom, he don't want to hear that your attention is someplace else ever about anything, anything, ever, ever.

1:13:21So I'm like, I had a house in Sherman, oh, because he was coming over one day. I said, look, Stevie, and it was an upside down. I see you got a high in the basement. I say, look, just stay down there. You know, you have T and toast and, you know, and Tom came over and she was hiding in the basement. And she's here. So let's play and you know, she always talks about I should have ear to the door. And you know, and so, but, you know, I, I was very clumsy. You know, and I didn't, I didn't know how to do anything socially, anything so incompetent outside of recording studio. I only felt safe in a recording studio.

1:14:05I don't know if you know that feeling. You must. I only felt like I was in water as a fish in the control room. Outside of that, I was flopping around. You know, so, you know, that one I did, Bella Donna, which was turned out to be an incredible album. That was the first album. You know, Patty Smith had a band. We're going to that, but Patty Smith, you know, how do we did Easter, right? But she had a band. So, you know, we haven't banned a lot of the arrangements come built in. New work on stuff, but the arrangements are pretty much how they play how they play, right? Stevie was a particular challenge.

1:14:48I think you'll be interested in this. It was a real challenge. And the reason why it was a challenge is she's coming out of Fleetwood Mac. That's like coming out of the Beatles or the Rolling Stones. And they have three incredible singers. And three incredible writers. I had friends of mine say to me, I think you make a mistake. I'm not sure she can sing a whole album. Yeah, because she never did before. Right. Well, you know, she said on the whole album, but was never the focus. And that was the first time I realized that conventional wisdom leads to conceptual blindness. Yes. Okay. So the conventional wisdom where she sang three songs.

1:15:32Yes. Now, she doesn't have a band. She has these two girls singers that were her best friends. And I got to go create a sound for her. Because she's very simple writer on the piano.

1:15:48But that voice and the melodies and the words are just unbelievable. But I still feel responsible to help put a sound together. But I came from bands. I didn't want to put a sound together like Linda Ronstadt. You know what I mean? Or those LA records that were great records. But they weren't the stones. It wasn't Tom Petty. It wasn't Patty Smith a band. It sounded like a backtrack. They had to get to play it. It only sounds like the guy a Campbell. Or only sounds like Keith. Or only say, you know, Bruce's band. It sounds like the wrecking crew. Right. Roy Bitton. Right. They're not on every record.

1:16:29So you wanted the band to have personality too. Right. So what I did was I felt was a giant leap for me intellectually. I went out and I got guys from every band. So I got Roy Bitton from the East Riebann. I got Ben Montenegg from the Hot Breakers. I got Don Felder and Davey Johnston from the Eagles in Elton John. And I brought in Linda's drum crew, Keltner and Bob Gron. Incredible. Right. And what do you want to tell? Incredible. Right. So I had three guitar players, two keyboard players, Davey Johnston. I only wanted to play that 12 string guitar. If you ever heard him play that, if he's ever around, I think he's still around.

1:17:17And you got to do a record. Nothing sounds like Davey Johnston on a 12 string guitar. Nothing. Cool. So you put Roy Bitton, Ben Montenegg and Davey Johnston. Now you've got an orchestra. Yeah. Those three guys sound like nothing else together. Yeah. That anyone's ever heard. Yeah. And every one of them is as unique sounding as any of the great rock and roll band musicians in the world. Yeah. So that gelled like crazy. And then we were able to make that record. So if you listen to a song like Edges 17, now Stevie wrote that over a police song. Doesn't begining of loops. So she made a 16 -bar loop of a police song.

1:18:04Bring on the night or something like that. And she sang. The white winged up section was the 16 minutes in. So we had to spend three days playing it and piecing it together. And if you listen to it, the bass drum and the verse, because the police played like reggae kind of feel. So there was a, the bass drum was on the end. And the way I used to record, I would stand in the middle of the room, not the control room in the studio. In the live room. Yeah, it had phones on. Because I wanted to work with the band. So I don't know. That was the first album that I actually was a gigantic part of the arrangement.

1:18:47You know, because I had to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it wasn't a self -contained thing. Right. You had to build it. But I didn't want to make a studio album with her. Understood. It was so clear in my mind not to do that. Yeah. So cool. It was just a good idea, right? Absolutely. I know. That's what always comes down to. It's like it's, it's a good idea. You don't even know where it comes from. It's just an inclination. And you don't know how to do it. No. So I just figured I'm going to go to the horses that got me here. Roy Bitten. Yeah. Ben Monde. Yeah. I love David Johnson and Rita play with Elton.

1:19:22Rita's Ben Monde. Forget it. It's unbelievable. He's pure soul. He's pure soul. He lives in two of my dammit torpedoes. Because that's an interesting thing. I'll tell you because you produced that, Ben. So when I was making Born and Run and I'm mixing it. Remember, none of us knew how to make a record. Me, John Landau, or Bruce. But I had to mix it. I never mixed an album before. So now I thought when you mix an album that you have to hear every instrument. So if you get a chance, listen to Born and Run. And you realize how complex those arrangements are. Those chord changes. Those bands playing a million different parts.

1:20:05Yeah. So I just sat there until you could hear every instrument. But whenever I got, I get bored really quick. I think most record producers and DJs. Like a DJ gets bored. Because he's looking at the audience and he's bored before their boards, which we change as a song. Everybody goes, oh, I'm so glad he changed the song. It's just that he was bored five seconds before you. And that's the way I am mixing. If I'm mixing a record, I got to do something. But again, I quit producing when digital came out. Because I liked analog mixing. I only could do it if I'm pushing everything up around myself.

1:20:38So whenever I got in trouble, I'm born and run. I go to Roy Benton and I had no sh every time you go to him. You push the goddamn thing up and he's doing something. Something good happens. Something great. He's never not playing something great. So when I went to the hot break, I pushed Ben Monov. If you listen to that album, that organ is loud. I'm going to listen to the album with this in mind. Yeah. I've listened to music. No, it's loud. It's loud. That's a great way to listen to it. Yeah. No, it's loud. And you know what else is loud? Because I used to argue with Stan, the drummer a lot. Yeah.

1:21:13But to me, he places on the back end of the beat. Yeah. And it would always drive me crazy. Because I was hearing Tom's album. I was trying to make walls and bridges. So I was thinking of drums like Max and Keltner. And this drum was like a loping kind of thing. And he used to drive me crazy. And the guy who saved the day to me. Probably didn't save the day for the world or Tom Petty. But say we're mixing the album. And Jim Keltner is working next door. We're mixing the album at Cherokee. Stix is here and he goes, you know, you know, me from John Lennon, right? Yeah. Hey, Jim, how you doing? I said, I said, Jim, I'm doing great.

1:21:52He goes, he has a film can in his hand. A little film can. And he goes, listen, this is what this, and it's refugee. He says, this is what this song needs.

1:22:05I said, would you go play it now? And he went out and played it. And I said, put all the other songs up. We put the fucking shaker on everything. It just glued everything together. When you hear the album, the fucking shaker is so loud. Yeah. It's like, it made Stan work to me. So great. Stan is incredible. The sound of the drums is unbelievable. But so now we're doing an album. And, you know, I always tell this story because, you know, it's important to show things you got wrong. Yeah, as well as things you got right. Of course. So we're doing Bella Donna. And I feel even though we had Edgy 17, but I didn't know what Edgy 17 was.

1:22:52I realized now 40 years later that it's everybody's favorite, one of those TV's favorite songs that people done. I don't know how you feel about that, but it's really, it's incredible. Like Trent Resner loves that song. You know, people that I never knew likes the, yeah. So Tom had a song, which is stopped dragging my heart around, that we weren't going to use because it was like a blues song. And remember, my mind with Tom was making hits. Yeah. That's what I thought we did. Because I consider music, you could have a credible song, a moody credible song, you could have a hit song. But when you put them together, that's what you really want.

1:23:34It's my life by the animals satisfaction by the rolling stones, like my fire by the doors. You know, we got to get out of this place. The animals, you know, Foxy lady. I want those records that come together and are mass appeal, but also give me the real deal. The sympathy for the devil. Absolutely. Right. So Tom's singing stopped drag and wasn't a hit. So I said, let's give it a CV because I just done this with Bruce, with Patty Smith and because the night. Yeah. And what a great song because the night is. Yeah. That's a great. Just didn't want to use it. It's a great song. The record is spectacular.

1:24:18It's the first record I ever produced. That's incredible. Yeah. Beautiful one. Yeah. The drums on that were something that Shelley and I, Yakis and I, we just started working together. And that was the first thing we did. And because he was an engineer at the studio and so was I, but I became a producer, but I wanted to have an engineer. Yeah. Because like, could you? Yes, you could be free. Yeah. And that was the first and we started mixing it at midnight till 10 in the morning. It's incredible. And she sings it great. I know. She owns the song. You know, and I don't know why, but I just heard her on that song.

1:24:54Yeah. You know, and obviously. No, no, what job risk was and was wasn't using it. It was thrown away. I said to me, you're throwing the song away. He says, absolutely. But this grows away a lot of songs. Yeah. He writes all that and fire the same time and gave them both the way. He went to Robert Johnson. Incredible. You know, but although, you know, something that would talk about him because. Yeah. That's where I learned a real work ethic with Springsteen. I learned that you don't stop. Yeah. Until you get it, you know, Bruce said something brilliant. Said many things brilliantly, but he said, I didn't want to be rich.

1:25:34I didn't want to be famous. I didn't even want to be happy. I wanted to be great. Yeah. And that's what he's like. Yeah. And in those two years at that time, he was broke. Yeah. And we were all struggling. And he just kept us all there. You know, I remember one night we're mixing and she's the one. And you know what happens. My ears clogged up. But we only had nine days to mix eight songs. So I couldn't stop because yeah, remember, he was getting dropped from Sony. I didn't know that. Yeah. I didn't know any of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But let's say we'll talk about Bruce B. Okay. That's unbelievable.

1:26:14Yeah. Anyway, so Tom, so I gave, we got a song. He sang on it. And then I didn't know how it worked. And it landed, dropped the record right on top of his record. So basically the waiting, Stevie's record steps on the waiting. That's right. That's unbelievable. That's bad luck. I think it was just it just the way that's the way the cards went. I think the label got hungry. Wanted to have a hit. And those days nobody gave a fuck. They hated the other labels. You know what I mean? Tom gave a fuck. Yeah. Big time. And I felt responsible. Yeah. You know what I mean? And you know, I always felt because we were related.

1:27:00We were related. And you know, as years went on, I always thought, you know, I should have protected him somehow. Yeah. But I didn't even know you could do that. No. And but yet, you know, it's like saying somebody's ahead of the time. I never want to hear that. I said, Jimmy, you were ahead of your time. No, I wasn't. I just didn't get it right. I don't care that I had the idea before anybody else. I get that I didn't do it. You know, so I felt that I should have done something different to make the result come out different. Although when I go back, it wasn't in your control. That's a part of it too.

1:27:35But I did, you know, something Rick, there was something I was when I was younger. That I got on the control. And I really have it on control as I get older. I was too hungry. And you make those kind of mistakes when you're too hungry. You just, you push it. Yeah. And you short -sighted. Yeah. And you really, yeah, I felt I, I felt I made a great record. But, um, but although the waiting is one of Tom's best songs. Absolutely. But there was something about it that wasn't as commercial as refugee. Do I know why? No. No. You never know. No. Oh, I knew as I played it for somebody I really respected before it came out.

1:28:25I played it for Richard Perry. Yeah. And he said, this is not as big as the last album. I was devastated. Because I wore the same jeans as the last album. I fucking knew. You were, you were into stuff like that. To a point of psychosis. Wow. I just did every studio, same assistant and do everything. Had to be exactly the same because I wanted it. The same results. Yeah. And you don't know what it is. Maybe it's the lucky pants. It could be, right? Could be. Could be anything. Could be anything. And that was something that you could control. The pants. That's exactly right. That's the beauty of it.

1:29:01It's like if you know if I do everything that I could possibly do. That's right. It's certainly not going to hurt my ass. That's right. And I felt he wrote the songs which he did. Yes. But there's something about, I don't know, maybe you've done albums with somebody where the follow up just didn't match up or something. And you felt you had it, but the world thought you didn't. Yeah. Also, sometimes it's the, the, where the artist is at. I had the experience with Tom. You know, I made great albums with Tom and I made less great albums with Tom too. Based on where he was at. And yeah. Do you know, it's like, I know.

1:29:34Not everyone is great all the time forever. Yeah. And you don't stop. But the magic of a record is so fucking complex that no one gets it. People who use music as like chewing gum, especially now. They have no idea where it comes from. How come you know, if you made, if you make classic movie, people dissect it, they don't dissect records. They just take, okay, next. You know, and I don't know. I always thought that kind of always felt like, I learned a lesson there. And I became out of, it was not in your control. I mean, you feel bad and you wish there was something you could have done. Of course, hot promises were so important to me.

1:30:15Yeah. Did Tom call you or talk about it? What Tom said one day, which really got to me. So I'm on the road. And three months in, he says, they're asking me to sign Damage of Appetus. I mean, so millions of albums in there. Of course. But it didn't matter. The waiting and woman in love weren't big hit records. I remember going to the record store that I remember, the childhood record store that I went to, called TSS Times Square Store, which was a big box store that sold everything, but there was a record department. And that's the record, that was my record department growing up on Long Island, where I went to buy records.

1:30:53And I remember seeing the cover of Dam the Torpedoes. Every time I went to the record store, it was always, there was this back wall where they put like the important records. There were stacks of records everywhere. But on the back wall where you could see the covers, then the port torpedoes was always. Now we're getting to close again. I bought them that sport jacket. Wow. Wow. Good look. It was the great one, right? Yeah, worked out. It was a great look. I think hard promises had a cool cover too. Yeah, yeah, it was in a record store. You want to listen to a great Tom Petty record. I think I told you this was before.

1:31:27Play Rebels. It is an incredible, incredible record. Do you ever listen to Rebels? I'm sure of this because it has Southern accent on it. Yeah, of course. You hear the Johnny Cash version of Southern accent? Of course. John the Rick Rubin. I listen to every song you do with Johnny Cash over the last two weeks. I just pulled up fucking Danny Boy. Yeah. Okay, every fucking song. I mean, my wife wants to kill me. It's all she loves Johnny Cash. Yeah, yeah. But she just, you know, enough enough. Yeah, I just play it constantly. And there's some of them are really sad. It's heavy. Those albums can make me cry.

1:32:07I think they have to go back. And they should go back on the Grammys and give albums we missed. Wow. That's a good idea. I feel like the Grammys are obsolete. I know that, but how what's his name? Harvey. He's trying to do better. They are obsolete. You know what I mean? Every album I just mentioned. Didn't win Grammy. Didn't win a Grammy. You know what I mean? And all bought a run. You know, the albums are paid. Oh, none of them got belt down. And none of them got. It's always a disconnect between what's popular and then what's critically, you know, like two, they're almost like two different.

1:32:41What's conventional wisdom? They want to go with what they know. And if you're doing something a little ahead of the time, and the best ones is no point of reference. It's revolutionary. Right. And they don't understand it. That's exactly right. I mean, it lads up when Ford didn't get out of the year. Yeah, amazing. It's amazing, right? It's amazing. Yeah, I don't like, you know, anything else. You can stop right there. You think it's possible for people to care about music in the same way, considering the fact that it's going by the way it's going by. Do you know what I'm saying? Like since the streaming revolution our relationship to music has changed, where even the things we love, there's still things on this conveyor belt that are going by all the time.

1:33:24Well, there's the problem, one of the big problems. I've done a lot of thinking about this because I had a streaming service, I had a regular company, right? And I studied popular culture. That's what I do. I try to impact popular culture whenever I count it will be part of something that's impacting popular culture. So what's happening now is kids have so much video games, like there's so much shit including themselves. So not only do they have their schoolwork, but they're trying to get likes and looking at their friends like, you can't do that while listening to music. So if you said that...

1:34:02No, while really listening to music the way we listen to music. So take it, kid. And you say, you know what? You miss your homework. I'm taking you're only allowed two apps. One of them's not a streaming music service. You two, Tiktok. Music is fifth. It's not the thing. And now what happens is that fame is replaced great as a currency. When you were growing up, great was the currency. Even if you were a pop band, you were trying to be better than the other pop band. Now it's you want to be more famous and you want to... Because that, you don't have to repeat great. Instagram is going to keep you around and keep you making money with you make a great album for your second album or not.

1:34:58You see it all the time. There are artists out there that have just average albums after they come out and they're bigger. They get television shows. They get on these, you know, the voice or this or that. Doesn't matter anymore. Because fame has replaced great. Am I... Am I a pain? No, it's interesting. It's a famous currency. It's currency. That's the currency. It used to be, you had to be great to be famous or have a hit or something. You don't have to have to be famous. Not even a little bit. Not even... You don't have to do anything. So that's when you ask me, the people go, so listen, I think the answer to that is unless someone figures out a hurricane way of reintroducing music which somebody will to make it, you know, hip -hop's 50 years old.

1:35:49Yeah. Unbelievable. You know what I mean? Hip -hop is 50 years old. Right. So you need another... something. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Hip -hop was the last big movement. Yeah. I guess so. Yeah. It was after punk. Yeah. It was after disco. Yeah. EDM. Never quite got as big as hip -hop. No. It didn't change the way people dress EDM. You know, punk changed that, you know, rock and roll and disco. EDM. No one... That means popular. Amazing the impact disco had because it was a short window. It was only a couple of years at disco. Because it burned. It was great. It burned. It burnt. Because it was got too big too fast.

1:36:33It just got burnt. And it's that same style. It became everything. It was burnt. Maybe that could have happened to hip -hop too, but hip -hop keeps reinventing itself. Yeah. I don't know. Disco didn't. But you know, guys like us go back and listen to Saturday and I feed with that fucking album. That, the Bee Gees, they were... For unbelievable. For unbelievable. What record makers? Unbelievable. And they were scorned. Yeah. They were scorned. I interviewed Barry Gibber. It was great. He was so interesting. I bet. So cool. So smart. I bet. You know, the other guy is really good. You know him well.

1:37:08He's Jeff Lin. Yeah, unbelievable talent. Unbelievable. I thought when I heard him put those backing vocals on Free Fallen, it was one of those... Why didn't I think of that moment? You know, I said, Fuck, he put EO's vocals on Tom Petty. And it worked. And the songs were so good. I mixed EO's. Every song. Every song in that album was great. But I'm with Free Fallen. It's funny. Tom did his three best albums with three different producers. Rockflowers. Full, there's a full movie. Yeah. And Damnit's torpedoes. And in each case, it was the first album. I always felt like when I worked with Tom the first time, he really wanted to show me how good he was.

1:37:53Yeah. And after that, I don't think he cared. He cared about making the best stuff. You know, cared about making it as good as he could and doing what he wanted. But he didn't have that feeling like, I want to impress this guy. Yeah. No, we were... It was magic when we first got together. But then like anything, I did three albums. But I also did half of Southern accents. Wow. Great. It gave Tom his comeback. Don't come around here no more because he was kind of cold. But it also messed up Southern accents because Southern accents was a theme album. But without don't come around here no more on it, it's not...

1:38:30He doesn't get on MTV. Yeah, that was like the step into the future. Yeah. It was programmed. It was different. It was Dave. Yeah, it was embracing. Because I got that song for Stevie. Wow. I went and got... I heard the rhythmics. I said, oh, fuck this. I went down to Dave's concert, the first play in the play in LA. I brought him to Stevie's house. And he played me that drumbeat. And he just was singing himself. Don't come around here no more. I said, holy shit. Stevie Nick singing don't come around here no more. Great. That has to win. So as Dave would say, she was starting to sing Shakespeare over the verses.

1:39:12Right? So Dave says it's not working. I said, let me tell you something. Tom will write the shit out of this. He's got Tom back. Tom got it back like that. So you got it. Amazing. But no one ever mentions that, including Tom. That's amazing. Right. So it's funny. No one knows this story. So Tom comes in and he's writing it. And he goes, you know what I mean? I'm going to take this one. I said, great. And Stevie didn't care one way or the other. And Tom got don't come around here no more. And it completely re -energized Tom's career. That's Steve is singing background on it. Incredible. Right? Those are great stories.

1:39:55Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. And all stuff you can't plan. And you can't, you know, it's like, no, because she got to be, you know, spontan, record producers have to be spontaneous. You know, how do you feel about producing records these days? You still enjoy it? It's fun. It's fun because it goes from something that either you don't know what it is or it's not so good. And you watch, I feel like I have no control over the situation. I'm not doing anything. But we're like playing and trying things. Let's try like this. Let's try like this. Let's try like this. And then all of a sudden something happens.

1:40:29And you can't believe it. How like that transformation of holy smokes. I think I'm addicted to that experience of I can't believe this is as good as it is. I think about producing is I have to go, I can never go in again. But I would have to do it with somebody that's making their best work. Yeah. It's hard to do that with somebody who's older, you know, the only, the part you did it, Daniel and Watt would Bob Dylan. Yeah. That record man, that record is awesome. Just awesome. There's one even after that, a couple after that, that I think Bob made himself called modern times. That's not the one that.

1:41:22No, that's not that's post Daniel Dunwoah. Oh, a couple post. And I remember going to Petty's house. So I heard it and it blew my mind. And I was at a point where I wasn't necessarily thinking the new Dylan Alms going to be the greatest thing because they weren't there, you know, they're hitting miss. And I went to Tom's house and I said, you got to hear this. What's the last time you saw Tom?

1:41:45Some on the beach in Malibu, probably a year before he passed. And I was invited and planned. I'm going to see him at the Hollywood Bowl, which is one of his last shows. Maybe it's last show. I got a story about that show. And I just felt like I don't really want to drive in. Rick, you're freaking me out. Same. This is so weird for me. I had the tickets. I had the people meeting me backstage. I had everything. And it was six o 'clock on a Sunday in Malibu. And I said, I got to drive to the fucking Hollywood Bowl. And till today, I feel so shitty about not going. Yeah. I have a different opinion.

1:42:37I like it at your opinion. I feel like we weren't supposed to see him that night. That's what it is. We were not supposed to see him that night. And it worked out exactly the way it was supposed to. Because otherwise, we'd have been there. It really, then Stevie called me on the day it happened and just said, come over here right away. I said, I heard he died. He said, how could it be? It just seemed so out of the like far fetched. Well, I mean, you knew him better in the later years than I did. I didn't see him that much. Although he did do the fight ones for me, which is really sweet. And he was great.

1:43:20But I went to see him. When he was on the life support. And it was weird. Because I walk in there. I walk into, I think it was St. John's or UCLA in Santa Monica. And I steve he's there and I walk up and I go and I look in this room and Tom hooked up to the machine. And you know, you know, the way that the machine breeds for you, he was gone. They just had unplugged him. Yeah. So I whispered something and it is here. You know, and I walked outside and I saw Elliott Roberts and Tony D 'Ami Triatus and the band. And for the first time in my life, I said, so this is what it's going to look like. You know what I mean?

1:44:07You say, I know, just my friends will be here. Yeah, this is what happens to everybody. This is how it goes. Yeah, I mean, but that's the night Tom Petty. That's what I was. I mean, tell you, it's very possible, but there was a hospital in Malibu. He would have been able to go rather than getting those drugs, Robert a fucky got the fentanyl from him. He may have been able to just go there to an emergency room and say my hip hurts. Maybe a life today. What are you going to do, right? I mean, we got so much to talk about. I love talking to you. Pleasure hearing you share the wisdom of the life. You know, it's like no one else could tell the story, but you.

1:44:46You know, Rick, this is where I am now. Five years ago, I retired. Yeah. Right? I retired because I couldn't work the way I worked and live the life I wanted to live. I wasn't able to do what you were doing. Yeah. I'm going to work, but I'm going to go to Italy for three weeks. If I was in Italy for three weeks, I was thinking about the fucking guitar part. Whatever today's guitar part was, the headphones, the Apple music. We're going to win, lose, draw. Of course. So I had to quit. I wonder if I ever have the, if I could ever bring myself to that. It's interesting. It's inspirational. I did it at 65 to hear it.

1:45:26Yeah. And I'll tell you why. I think you could feel it in me. I'm a different. Carcadian rhythm. I'm a different. I'm in a different space. I feel it. This is the most relaxed conversation I've ever had in you. I just feel I just feel great and I do things. Of course. I helped my wife with a rose skating rinks. Of course. I helped Jamie with network. I helped my kids. I'm building high schools with Dre. And I do a lot of. You do it interesting, but you don't feel like you're on the hook. The hook, the word, the hook isn't in my mouth. Great. That's the feeling. I understand. No, I know the feeling.

1:46:03And there's always somebody on the, and you know what? I don't want to have to convince people of anything anymore. Yeah. I don't want to have to convince people on giant deals or making the tambourine a little louder. I don't want to convince anybody of anything. If you want to play, we could play. Ever since I retired, my medical numbers have gone through the roof. I feel relaxed. Me and my wife are doing great. And my kids, I just look, I'm going to be 70. I'm retired five years. Fantastic. I don't miss one foot. By the way, I told Bruce asked me when I retire. I said, I can be retired. I said, look, man, I just left Italy with you.

1:46:45I went to Milan, 80 ,000 people yelling Bruce. If they were yelling Jimmy, I wouldn't retire either. Yeah, it's different. I talked to scumbags all day. Yeah. And I don't want to do that. Yeah, I understand that. I don't want to do it. I understand that. That's a big subject for our next talk about the people you have to deal with. Yeah. I love this, right? I love sitting in your corner. Right? Oh my god. It's fun. I think it's how it's like, it's posterity. Well, first of all, this is lost information. No one knows. Well, you know, you're correcting that. You're like that.