Joaquin Phoenix

29:56It was just amazing. And then you would take a fairy cross and you'd hope to catch the right fairy if the bus was late. You know, I missed that one. Somebody's up to say tonight. Sometimes you make it. Get across the other side, all dirt roads, bumps. There's an adventurous and anybody that was there was there because they, they were adventurous. It was just small little town and just great people. And a really eclectic group of people. Where were the people from that you'd make? Everywhere. All over the world. German, Swiss, Italian. Yeah, all over the world. It was this spot. Again, this is like before the internet.

30:36So how, this is all just like word of mouth. How do they even know? Yeah. One person goes down there and tells their friends. What do you think all the people who went there were looking for? What was the shared interest? I don't know. I think some of them were just wanted to escape. They were looking to get away. They always felt like they were like a few people that seemed like a little shady. Like those ex -bats that are like, but I think a simplicity, a return to like, to nature. We got there almost everybody rode horses. Like there weren't like cars. That's cool. It was like everybody. And there was just like the owner of this bar hotel had a car.

31:22And this one as well. Everyone else had horses? Horses were walked. That was it. He just walked. Did you learn to ride a horse there? I did. Yeah. Were your parents into theatrical stuff? Were they into performance? I think my dad, you know, harbored a desire, but it was so far removed from what his experience was growing up. He was a real, you know, working -class kid from Fontana. And again, just a real tough upbringing. I don't think he could even dream of something. I think he was like, he's also probably like, if he told his brothers that he wanted to do a school play, they'd probably call him a pussy.

32:12And you know, is that kind of culture, you know? So I don't think that my dad was probably the real like, I mean, I know he was a very sensitive person, you know, just like deeply sensitive. He came from a tough place, you know, and he spent most of his teenage years in June of home. He was a fighter. I mean, I remember he wasn't a fighter, but he had it in him. You know? He wanted a person to be a fighter. Yeah, but he would not fucking back down. And I saw him in some situations that just scared the fuck out of me. Wow. But also, you felt like, well, this, this wild animal has got my back. He can, you know, here's a really interesting guy.

33:03And he also, he played guitar. And I think, I think he probably did have like a desire to be a singer -songwriter. And again, I don't think he really knew how to do that. Yeah. What was his taste in music? What did he listen to? Well, you know, when I was older, he loved still pulse, was the band. Yeah. I was like, and you know, I'll say, there's some of those records that are fucking amazing. Did there be music playing in your house usually or no? There was a lot of Beatles. I have my parents that like Beatles, but I don't remember them. Again, we didn't really have things, you know, early on.

33:51I think it wasn't until I was like 11 years old that somehow we had a record player. But I don't think anyone even knew that one of the speakers wasn't working. It was like that.

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35:46Did you feel like you had a home base or did you feel like you moved around enough to where you felt like you just lived wherever you were? I felt like we had a home base even though we may not have. Yeah. Never felt like - Because you just - In the group you felt home base. Solid. No matter what it was. We had such - My parents had such faith and we in turn had that that there was never a moment like. And you know, I remember being aware that we were struggling financially. Yeah. But you know, I think some of that in some ways was a choice. I think there was this point. They just relinquished all materialistic items.

36:33You know, they were kind of like and lived by faith and trusted in that. Trusted that we were going to get - That sounds great. It's pretty magical to be honest. It was again, I don't know how what it was to be a non -year -old girl in that situation. Maybe my youngest sibling feels differently about it. But I think that - I mean, I know that we all felt safe. And provided for - And I think, you know, there were those moments that define you and - You know, giving our dog away, we had to - Because we were traveling across the states and we couldn't feed them. And my dad, you know, was in a parking lot of a grocery store.

37:24My dad literally was going in and trying to find somebody that would take this dog. And he did. He found somebody. He was a fucking genius with some stuff. I mean, my dad was very resourceful. He - Yeah, and he - He found this guy and we watched the guy come out with a big bag of dog food. You know, we were sad that, you know, we were parting ways of the dog and then so happy that we knew that he found this new home. So there were those kind of experiences that I think shaped us and, you know, whatever it was that we were going through, we went through it together. That - That simple, you know, and there's, uh, Yeah, I don't know what one of you'd ask for.

38:12That sounds great. Tell me the different places he lived. Which I was born in Puerto Rico. Uh, how long did you live in Puerto Rico? Probably a year or something. So no real memory is in Puerto Rico? No. How did your parents end up in Puerto Rico? My parents lived in Puerto Rico. They were with this group called the children of God. And there was a - Like a commune? Yeah, the commune, you know, I think it started - it felt like it was a commune. Yeah. A shared commune of ideas, ideals. And they had some friends that they met, I believe, in Texas, who were going there. And so they said, you know, you gotta come to this place.

39:04It's amazing. We're all living together. And I don't actually don't know the details. Yeah. What sparked it for them? But I know that they both had, you know, a kind of a, you know, I think what they would describe as a profound spiritual awakening. Of just a shared belief of like, well, we don't want to raise our kids in this system. So they went to Puerto Rico. You know, I always thought, I'm, you know, that everybody kind of lived, you know, in this place in Puerto Rico. But I think that the main group was somewhere, I don't even know where. Not, you know - So what's the first place you remember?

39:50So the first place I remember was Venezuela. How old were you in Venezuela? I was probably, let's see, I was, that was probably two and a half years old this time. I was the third born. My mom was pregnant with my sister Liberty, who was born in Codacus. And my first memory is being in a pool. My dad holding me, I terrified of the iguanas that were going along the - From big were they. I mean, to me, they were fucking dinosaurs, right? They really do look like dinosaurs. Yes. It's incredible. It's incredible. And so my dad basically was the caretaker for this elderly woman. And she allowed us to stay in this room that was off of her house.

40:39And as I recall, she was not a wealthy person. But I think she more took pity on my family. And my dad was like, if you let us stay here, I'll - I'll help you. I'll do whatever I can for you know, it's kind of that situation. So that wasn't a community based on the group that they found? No. And they had been friends with a - a local priest in Venezuela. And I believe they went to him. And they said, we have to get out of here. We have no means. Can you help us? And he had a friend that worked on a ship that was exporting talkatory trucks from Venezuela to the States. And it was going to Florida.

41:28And it happened that my - my grandparents, my mother's parents lived in Florida. And we were stowaways somehow this person got us on this ship. Do you remember - With being on the ship? I remember very clearly because - Because this I remember clearly because - I remember these - I remember - So I turned three years old on the boat. And I think I remembered this because I turned three years old. And okay, so first let me clear - So when I say stowaways, we couldn't have been like really proper stowaways. Because people knew that we were there. And it was my birthday and they baked me a cake. But I think they just - I think they just - We were there free.

42:06It was like - Yeah. Somehow - They were being cool. They were being cool. They were being cool. Because I don't think it - It wasn't a passenger ship. No. Right? You have your birthday on the boat? The birthday on the boat, they give me - They bring out a cake. Again, we were living very - How many of you were at this time? Sure. Four of us. At this point, my sister's been born. My sister Liberty's been born. And my mom was pregnant with my sister Summer. And that's everybody? Yes. There's four of us. Summer would be the last one. So everybody was there except Summer wasn't yet born. Summer, it wasn't yet born.

42:41They baked me a cake, a birthday cake, and they gave me some Tonka toy trucks. Never had toys. Awesome. Never - You don't remember any kind of cake, anything like that. So that was monumental feeling of a real sense of - Safety and love and care from strangers. Yeah. But then the other event, and I've talked about this and the great deals where we're not boring you, but - I don't know any of this. Tell me everything. Okay. I love this story. What a cool life. This is great. That's what I love. It's awesome. Yeah. And so with this love and support from these strangers, which obviously meant a lot, I think it's something that - I think that I was aware of how much we relied on people.

43:30You just kind of sense that. But then I remember they were catching fish on this boat. And I imagine it was for themselves. I imagine it was obviously wasn't a fishing vessel, right? It was probably just like for this journey. But they were catching fish in a net. So it was like, you know, what seemed to me, I remember a vast amount. Maybe it was 20. I don't know. But they do them on the side of the ship, the platform. We were there. This is outside. And the fish are flapping around. They would throw them against the side of the boat to stun them. And I think as children, this was so shocking to us.

44:18To see how vibrant a fool alive. And how desperate. You know, there's quite captures that - that desperation as like wanting oxygen and like what the body does almost without control. It is beyond a choice so that desperate, flailing movement is so shocking. And I remember we were all at, you know, the kids collectively were just floored by this. And we were crying and we were screaming. And I would want it to stop. And it's very hard for me to believe. But my mother says that I said, and I remember one of us saying, why didn't you tell us what this was? That this was meat. Like when we ate fish, I don't know, and it was eating fish.

45:13You understand that it wants us this thing. Now my mom says that I said that. I was three years old. But having a child that was just three years old. Yes, my fucking very aware. Things come out and I was okay. Maybe I did. But I know that all of my siblings, we all had that same feeling, that same realization. And from that moment, we said we're never eating meat again. Like we're not eating anything. And has that been the case? And that has been the case. Wow. And my parents to their credit honored that wish. This was the kids decision, not your parents decision. That's right. I mean, I think that years before, my parents had experimented with vegetarianism.

46:02And then they probably, you know, to be honest, there was a point where I think we were living however we could. But there was a decision. So I don't think it was a completely foreign concept to them. But I think it probably was, I imagine that it was difficult because they're just going like, I think I'm going to go like, do you know what it takes just to fucking feed? Six of us with another one on the way. We're just trying to figure this out. However we can. And now we got these restrictions put on us. I imagine. But I never felt that. So then from there, we arrived in Miami. And I remember seeing my grandparents from the boat and we were looking down at the dock seeing them being pointed out and waving.

46:50That your mom's parents. That's from all parents. And then shortly thereafter, my brother River, who I think you must have met. Right. Yeah. I don't know where this idea came from. Certainly wasn't popular at the time. But he just felt like how could we be, why are we taking anything from an animal? And not just led to our veganism. And so my sister's summer was born vegan. In 1977. And yeah, we've been vegan ever since. So that's why I remember that. You know, it was a really instrumental part of our life. And probably a story that was we experienced. And then we talked about. Tell me a whole lot.

47:34So it was like one of those memories that was like that period. It was a big transitional period for the family. How was Florida different than Venezuela? I don't know that. For you. Yeah. Well, what I remember is there was a a Fanzo San, I almost remember his name. Fanzo Sains or something like that, who I think might have been somehow involved in the music industry. Maybe a record producer. I don't know for some reason. I don't know how this happened. I don't know where, I don't know why we ended up in Winter Park, which is outside of Orlando. I don't know how we got there because I don't think my grandparents didn't live there.

48:16I think they lived in West Palm Beach. But my again, my dad was the groundskeeper for this guy. I don't know how. To your dad got a job. That makes sense. Yeah, but they got a job. Yeah, and that's why we lived on the property. Makes sense. I remember it being good. Tell me did you live in Florida? So I got there. Summer was born. It was probably, you know, it was probably between almost four, maybe a turn four, and then let's see. I don't really know. I guess some years? Well, maybe a couple years or something. A couple years. Maybe probably came out to California. And then California. And how did that happen?

49:01I don't know. The part of it is the things that I think maybe that I left out when I was born, he'd started playing guitar. So he was probably been as well. Rain and River started performing together. And they would go my dad, I think part of the missionary work would be to go into like jails. And they would perform for inmates. And then they kind of got better. And they had this. This was doing the missionary work for the group. But then you leave the group, but they continued performing? No, because I think when they left the group, that's when we got on the boat. Yeah. I think part of what it was with the group was like, your job is a good pass out pamphlets and like get people to join.

49:51I think for my parents, it was like spreading the word. Yeah. Right. Missionary work. Yes. And they believed in. Absolutely. And it was connected to the group. But how much they lived with the group or our lives. I don't have a lot of memories of the group, memories of the family. I don't think my siblings who were not performing was necessarily connected to the group. I don't think it was a requirement of the thing. I think it was something that my dad and them did because they believed. Yeah. I believed in like, if you believe in something, you want to spread the word, something good. I think so.

50:25And so I guess at some point, I don't know where this came from of my parents' suggestion. I don't know if somebody else suggested it, but they performed in talented. Yeah. Do you remember seeing them perform? I don't. I have memories, but I think it's from newspaper clippings that I saw when I was older or something. Yeah. I make sense. I'm not sure. And I think that I was young. I do know that there's a point where I wanted to be. You want to join the group? Part of it. Yeah. But that really didn't happen to later. So they would play. And I think they got a lot of notice. And you know, one of those things, I think it was probably, I find undeniable, that at that young age, they both had something.

51:14And it is whatever the fuck that is. Yeah. Well, whatever that means. Yeah. Right. I think, yeah, I have a memory of my brother being quite young and just owning the guitar. Wow. You know, not, you know, playing a lead kind of way. It's just like a rhythm. Like he's the kid who had a guitar that was bigger than him and he keep fucking owned it. Yeah. And so I think it was that kind of that kind of thing where you're like, well, that person, that's, they have found an instrument for expression. That is just whatever it is. That was his thing. And so I think, I parents, you know, recognize that.

51:55So my mom had gone to school maybe with Penny Marshall. At the time, of course, it was in a really successful show that Vernon Shirley wrote in a Chubotra letter. And you know, would you meet my kids? They, they seem to have something in this desire and, you know, they're doing this thing. And the story is that, you know, Penny wrote back and was like, congratulations. Don't come out, Talley. Yeah. Like, I'm sure that, uh, yeah, I can only imagine like, now if I get a letter like that, somebody was like a new and I was a kid, my kids really want to do something. Can we come out to LA when you meet them?

52:45You'd be like, you know, what would I do? What am I going to do? What am I going to do? You know, you know, I've perhaps we've been telling, anyways.

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54:34Your family moved to L .A. chasing a dream. Yeah. Great? Yeah, or he's chasing a dream or being pulled by something. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, they were right. Right? Like what? Yeah, it worked. There was nothing. Nothing was forced. We were fucking living by faith. We had nothing. We had no means. And it worked. And faith came through. I did. You know, so I guess maybe chasing a dream but part of the also feels like. I didn't mean it in a negative way. No, I know you do. I'm just, I'm having my own conversation with myself about it. And have, you know, throughout my life. Because it's in some ways it's insane and reckless.

55:23It's a wild story. I wouldn't use the word reckless. Because it's not like they were protecting anything before. Like maybe they were taking a chance. But I wouldn't use the word reckless. No, you're right. I mean, I, yeah, I guess it's really incredible. The faith they had and this belief because having kids down myself, the amount of work that I do to try to guarantee that things are going to be smooth with all the means that I have. Yeah. This part goes like, you were putting yourself into another situation which you did not know the outcome. And now you have even more kids right? You have a brand new baby.

56:04And we're just getting in the car driving in a car that, you know, shouldn't take local roads. And you're on the tent going, wow, you know. So you guys drove across the country? We drove across the country. Wow. Any memory of that being in the car? Yeah. Now that's where we give with a dog. The very strong memory is the, there was this old station wagon of these days. That one window that rolled up in the back. That window was, was broken, right? So I'm open all the time. Over all the time. Yeah. And at some point it got cold. Yeah. Would you guys sleep in the car? We sleep in the car. Wow. And I never questioned this story growing up.

56:43And I was an adult. I'm questioning how my father came to this conclusion. But it was cold and the only solution, I think available to him, I have to imagine available. And all you could think of was to take the pamper's diapers and to stick them together to cover up the back window. But I just, I could like, didn't we, isn't there a tarp? Wasn't there duct tape? How well can a, when a, when a, can a diaper stick, it has to come undone it. So I, such a vivid memory. So I know that it happened. Yeah. But it seems, it's like, but I have to believe that it must have been the middle of the fucking night.

57:27And some of the weather's wrong. And there's no, you know, there's no version of like, we can stop it. And all we have are some diapers. Maybe there's a trash bag and some diapers together, you know, in my mind, it's diapers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe there was something else as well. Maybe the window could only go up, you know, halfway or three quarters away and the rest was done with diapers. I don't know. It's funny how those stories that you tell them you go, I should be clarified. I should, for myself, yeah, that you never really wonder about. Just part of your, part of your life. But there were those kind of, those kind of moments again, my dad always being a really ingenious with surviving, right?

58:17Just making it work. The power of faith is unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah, completely. And my parents had that. I mean, they, they, you say you have it? I don't know that I do. Yeah. I ever have it. Yes, and I think that I, in some ways, I do, I don't have it the way that they did. Yeah. I don't think that I could, I don't think I could, I mean, my parents, there's a picture of them with four kids hitchhiking, literally hitchhiking. I don't know how to do that. Yeah. You also don't know because you never had to have that. That's the other thing. It's like they rose to the occasion. And it sounds like in a pretty positive way.

59:11Like it wasn't bad vibes in your house. That wasn't like pity and crying all the time. It was like, let's go. No, this is, no problem. I mean, I, I think that I've always felt purpose, Yeah. Connected to something. Maybe I'm just not as comfortable with that language or maybe it feels like wanting a more, I don't know, a different understanding of it. But, but I think there, I do have a feeling of knowing a certain comfort and a knowing or that the things are moving in a direction and I'm a part of it. Yeah. And I'm okay with that. Yeah. And that was your role in the family too. So what you're describing, that also makes sense.

59:59Yeah, I mean, I think that my personality is such, my nature is such, I was very comfortable being the third born and not having any real responsibility. I think that's how I expected my life to go. Yeah. And I was good with it. I knew that I was going to be an actor from being young at a point when I had already acted and moved away from it. But I didn't think that it would be, it would be a value to the family anyway that I thought that it would strictly just be for my own benefit. And my brother was very much, I say, the driving force of the family and in some ways, even, you know, my dad at this point when he got older, he'd been so hobbled from his life.

1:00:52I mean, literally just backbroken and legs and just how accidents from a very young age. So physically, he was somebody that was in pain. My whole life, my dad was in pain. And he dealt with it in a way that his life experience happened to deal with it, which is usually to to numb it with alcohol. Right? So it's really the only way that I think he could cope with it. He didn't, but I'm with him. It's not too dramatic. And I don't know that it was that dramatic, but I think that's something I would say now. I don't think that he would have said that. I don't know other people would have. I don't know, but I would say that.

1:01:32He was drinking the self -medicate because for sure, he was in pain. And who knows what a man's expectations of themselves may be and where he got to. And maybe there was a point where he took the family as far as he could take it. Yeah. His ingenuity. Yeah. It's, I imagine it's like the dream that your child is going to take over in some ways. And also probably very difficult to face your mortality. Yeah. Right? Unless you're preparing yourself for that or you're comfortable doing that. I don't know that my impression of my father at some point was somebody that was hurt. Yeah. And I don't know what level of hurt that that is.

1:02:18I don't know how much of it was physical, how much of it was spiritual or emotional. Obviously, somebody definitely had many unresolved things within his own family and life experience. So my brother, I think, was the kind of driving force the family and certainly was the, you know, probably the singular force that took us out of relying on the kind gestures of others to where, you know, we suddenly, we bought a house, not really. And so I was very comfortable with that. I think my brother died. I think I just turned 18. And I imagine, I mean, I know that I felt a certain push to take on some responsibilities for the family in some ways.

1:03:12I can't remember what led me to this. I feel like you asked him that prompted this. I came to that. Yeah. I guess, I guess faith, we were talking about faith. I had faith. I think at some point, maybe that was shook a little bit. Yeah. And maybe I felt like, I'm going to grab these motherfucking rains and, wow, you know, do something. Yeah, I don't, give back when you're really questions. I don't know if I was, I don't know if I was leading that or if I was being pulled. It's, I don't know. You know, what that was. Did you feel it as a sense of responsibility? What would be the word for the feeling?

1:03:56Part of it, honestly, pardon me once to say that, but then I think like, the prior to my brother's death, he was like, listen, you're, you're going to start out again. Okay, you're going to, you're going to be really good. You're going to do it. You're going to go for it. You're going to fucking do it. You're going to be more of an actor than I am. And so he was like, listen, I'm doing this movie. You're auditioning for the brother in it. And kind of got me back into this. This is after I lived in Costa Rica for a few years. I stepped away from acting, because I reacted as a kid. And I, you know, I came back.

1:04:35I started, you know, actively going to New York and auditioning. And, you know, it was a dissing to play as part. I think that probably just because he was like, as my brother and I want to play my brother, I saw audition for it. And we were going to do this movie. So I think in some ways, it was already moving in that direction. And then this, this seismic event happened in my life, which then was like, you know, now what? Yeah. So it's really interesting looking back on it, you know, it's hard for me to know, which, what thing was coming in. It's said that you knew you wanted to be an actor from young.

1:05:18You never wanted to do anything else. No, no, no, but I started acting so young. I mean, again, before acting, you know, we were seeing on the streets. And I definitely felt probably alive. And I think in some ways, if you were going to psychoanalyze the family dynamics and being the third born, there was a certain, even though there was faith in the family, there was a time as chaos. You know, I mean, I just, the fucking nature of how you have those, of course, five kids and a dog and, you know, not have the needs. And I seem to remember, you know, going out and seeing these songs and dancing on the streets and just feeling like, fucking like, you know, invincible.

1:06:08Yeah. It's like, did it have to do with the reaction or not necessarily? I'm sure because I wasn't going to get the same thing just being with my dad. Yeah. I'm doing it song to the front of him. But, you know, it's that unique thing that happens in a situation where you're performing in front of a crowd. It's who's giving, who the energy, who who starts it. Yeah, yeah. You know, and at some point it becomes this reciprocal experience, right? So I think that was the first kind of feeling. And then we, you know, like, river started acting and me and my sister guest started in a show that he did.

1:06:49And what did it feel like? It, I don't know how I articulate it, it just felt. I think it was like both, you know, totally powerful and totally vulnerable, you know, simultaneously. Yeah. You know, it's like, you're out there. Yeah. And it was just fucking fun. Yeah. And it was eight years old. Yeah. It was cool running around. I said, and everyone is so cool. You know, eight years old. I mean, like the grips of the coolest motherfuckers there. And you got to do is roll on belts. And they got all this gear on. You know what I mean? And it's a weird little circus. That's a cool life. Yes. You know, it's interesting.

1:07:30And I would say in their own way, every single person on the set is creative. They are all doing something. And so there is a very powerful energy on a set, even on like a mediocre TV show. It's still really amazing. Like the forces that come together. It's a group effort for sure. It is. And when you're a kid, you're real sensitive to that shit. You really feel like, well, hold on. There's something happening here. Yeah. That is like fucking buzzing. You know, like I remember, you walk on the, you smell the lights. It all still smells the same. And there's the sounds of the trucks under there and moving in the honey wagons.

1:08:16And it's such an eclectic group of people that normally their lives might not intersect. Right. And yet here they are. In this kind of like unified effort. So there's something that's very attractive and fun about it. I think it's as a kid, it's part of it. You've gotten to work with probably the greatest living directors. How different is it from director to director? Are their styles different? Are they similar? Shining, of course, the styles are different. But I, you know, at some point, there's one like connective tissue, which is like, just like a powerful like perceptive quality that allows them to like seek out truth in a moment.

1:09:08And you know, there are times where you're from a 3D group. That's right. And 90 % of the directors are like, good. Sometimes they're like, wow. And the other 10 % of those special ones. Yeah. You know, if you ever do some of you think, okay, and you actually feel okay and somebody's like, yeah, you know, it's just heartbreaking and crushing and also so exciting. And you're like, thank you. Thank you. And yeah, what can, you know, what can that be? It's particularly just if you start off from a place of like, okay, okay, well, here's something. And then do you have a partner saying, no, not really.

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1:11:15If there's going to be another take, would it more likely be you saying let me try it again, or would it be the director saying let's do it again? Oh, no, it's them. Do you ever say let's do it again? I want to try one more time. Very rarely. Very rarely. I'm always struggling with this feeling of like, yes, there's something for me to do. I'm being guided by something and just like crushing insecurity and fear. She's so stupid. But part of me is like, what it would take for me to say, like, I want another one. Yeah. Because then it'd be like, you know, whoa, okay, whoa, what are you, what are you going to do?

1:11:58Whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you going to do? So I'm always setting yourself up for asking for another one. A little bit. That's interesting. Yeah, I think that, well, I'll tell you again to the last take. I mean, we are locked and usually the filmmaker of like what we're after. It's more earlier on as we're talking about things where it's like, and sometimes all I can do is just say, there's something missing. Do you ever change the lines? Oh, yeah, I mean, of course, I mean, you know, this is when you go, wow, I just made up some great shit. You're like, and you look at the script and you did exactly what was that.

1:12:41That's the best feeling. Does the person you're playing against impact your performance? Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. Because you're reacting to them. Yeah, I mean, for every reason that's, you know, I mean, there's so many different reasons, right? Just, yeah, of course. You two actors doing the China, you're the exact same thing. You're still going to have a different reaction to just who that person is. And, you know, sometimes you're looking at a piece of tape next to the camera, and you're talking to that, and you can't even see the other actor, you know. Can you play any character, or do you need to feel a connection to that character to do it?

1:13:22I don't think that I could play any kind of character in it. There's something that you're just, you know, more right -for, I do think like, you got to be cast, you know, maybe there are some actors that can do anything. I don't trust them. You have to believe your character. You have to agree with their position. No. No, you just have to, you just have to know that they do. Yeah, at some point, yes, you have to believe it in that moment. Yeah. Right? You have to, but, you know, yeah, I guess it's always the trick right to try to go from observing from a distance to experiencing and presenting as if it's your own, because if you remain at a distance, if you, if you're laughing at the character, or you're going like, like, I don't, that's not how I feel, but, you know, I don't think so.

1:14:24I think you can sense that sometimes in performances, and I'm sure, you know, I've done it. I think the hope is that you are as connected as possible. Could you ever imagine not doing it? Yes. I don't know, maybe not.

1:14:47I've been working the last few years, and I think, subconsciously having a kid probably has a lot to do with that, although, and I'm feeling like I was making those decisions in the moment, but I knew what I was sacrificing, what I was moving away from in order to do them, and I felt a need to do it. And part of me has been really struggling with several things recently that I think, you know, I never regret anything just because they have the life where I'm sitting in right now. It's hard to ever regret anything. But I don't want to make too much of a thing of what I do, but I feel like in some ways, I'd always had a reverence for the kind of like the purest possible form of this entertainment thing that I do.

1:15:40And I always steered clear of being motivated by money, or prestige, or anything, and it really was pure not because I'm fucking virtuous or anything, but just, I don't know why. It ended up that way. I was fortunate, and I benefited from this. I, because I had no choice, I just instinct, I can't take credit for it. No, it was a good instinct to do what you felt was worth doing, and you weren't corrupted by any other forces. Yeah. And I think I knew what it took. And so it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's so much. And then I think, in some ways, I've been in this place of like, well, maybe I would like to try this.

1:16:23And that might be interesting to, you know, making a choice from a different place versus, I think, traditionally, it always been, her historically been, oh, I must do this versus like, oh, that might be interesting. I wonder if I could manage to get this to work. And so I think I ended up in a situation recently with a few different projects where I wasn't completely in it, and I had to be in it. And I was away from my, my family and kids, and I, and a way that has made me now, during like, well, I'm, I'm not leaving, unless I, I have to, to do it. Tell me about the documentary where you sort of flayed yourself.

1:17:05Oh, right. I'm still here. I finished walk the line. Yeah. Did I did, tell me about that a little bit first, like, how did you prepare for that? Right. So strangely enough, before I was even doing that, my friend James Gray, as a director, was doing it like a documentary shooting some footage on John and June. And gladiator to come out. And for some reason, James called me one day, said, do you want to meet Johnny Cash? And I said, sure. You know, and he said, well, he's in towns, staying at a relative's house or a friend or something, and they want to come by. So I went over to the, to have dinner with James and Johnny and June and his friend or family member.

1:17:55And I remember that he was very shaky. And he told me how much he liked gladiator and, and he seemed to, the impression was that he seemed to really like my character versus the character, I think, most people, you know, liked it, which was Russell Crowe's character. And, you know, who they wanted to emulate. He seemed to really appreciate my character. And we have dinner and he seemed almost, almost shy in some ways. And yeah, he's just, um, and he has a big, strong guy, right? But he seemed shy and he was very shaky. He was really shaky. And, um, and he said it's something we finished dinner and he said, you know, you know, I played some songs and I was like, I was like, I was like, no, you know, you know, you know, I have to, I felt like he felt like, I thought that maybe he felt like he had to do that.

1:18:52But I don't think he did feel that way. I think that it's something that he, you know, really loved and really loved doing it with June. Yeah. And, uh, we went into this other room, we're seeing there and he's, you know, quite shaky and I thought, I'm so uncomfortable for him. I just was like, I'm so painful. And then he picked up the guitar and like, like literally just, it's, it's, his body, his body was perfect. Like literally, the shaking stopped and he's just strumming. And then, and he's kind of looking down and then June comes over and sits, sits down, he's just strumming and he just looks up at her.

1:19:31And it was like one of those fucking moments that you just, you can't deny there was a incredibly powerful energy in the room. Something came in there and changed everybody in that moment and he looked at her and they started singing on the banks of the River Jordan. Is that the song? It's like a beautiful spiritual and it was jaw dropping. The impact of that and again, to his so rich in feeling and history and his own creativity, his purpose and his shared creativity with June was just fucking unbelievable. And I remember just being shocked by that. I'd never witnessed anything like that. And it was a really powerful moment.

1:20:23And at the time, I did not know that I would be playing him or there was even going to be a movie about him. And I don't think it was that long after. I mean, I think it was maybe a year later or something that James Mangold, the writer, director of the semi -descript called Cash at the time. And I think it was just like offering to me, right? Have you ever played an actual person before? I mean, you know, gladiators based on actual verse, but no one... No, when you met. No, no, anybody could verify whether or not you were doing it or not felt accurate. Did you have any question about doing it?

1:21:04I think that I had this feeling of like, okay, that's it. Like of a knowing of that's what the next thing was. Like, I'm just knowing it. But of course, you do two different sides yourself. But there's the human part of you that you're terrified. I'm gonna be humiliated. I'm gonna ruin somebody's thing. This is their life, whom I defucking do this. All of that seems intimidating. Very. I like that you felt the feeling right from the beginning. This is the thing. This is not like, not like, this is gonna be great. No, no, no, no, no. But you instinct was, you were gonna find a way in to do it. I just knew that that's what I was doing.

1:21:47Yeah, I just knew that it was happening. Yeah, yeah. And it wasn't again, nothing to it like, it's gonna work. It just was like, this was the next evolutionary step for me. It was like, here is your next opportunity. And you're either gonna keep going until these things stop and then thank you. Yeah, I had a bunch of cool experiences. Thank you. And you're done. Or it keeps going. I don't know what I just know that this is that opportunity. Thank you so much. Now I'm fucked. What am I gonna do? The first things I did was work with T -bone. I said to fly out to LA. He's great. Got a guitar. Never played a guitar.

1:22:33And it's got some lessons to learn, learned E to A, got B7. Thought I was the fucking shit. It was like, look out. And so started strumming. I just, I listened to a bunch of recordings that I had of John and just talking. And how did a couple of vocal lessons? Was it obvious that you were gonna sing as opposed to lip sync? Well not to me. Yeah. But, you know, James Mangold felt pretty certain of it. And this was probably like 2004 or 2005. And so, you know, pro tools was a full effect by then, right? So there was I think probably the possibility of blending stems and note correction and, you know, enough tools I think where that became more possible than probably it would have been 10 years ago, right?

1:23:36At least where you would go, we didn't even know if this guy can do it. But what we're gonna do anyways because worse comes to we'll figure it out. Yeah. Right. So I think everybody was moving forward of just like this kind of like, let's go and see where it takes us. And yeah. We just went, okay, the documentary. Yeah. I think it's just a point in my life. You know, it's all this work. I think in some ways I'd kind of like hit that first benchmark in some ways. I think walk the line was kind of like a thing. And then it seemed maybe the opportunities be all that was coming in of like, well, now that you really made it, here's what you got.

1:24:19And that was disappointing to me because I felt like to make it meant like then they're like, now we're gonna offer you the shitty movies for a lot of money. That was kind of like the next step up. And I think I was so shocked by that because I think I had this fantasy of like, yeah, it just means that the quality is going to improve. And it wasn't the quality of the quantity. improved, right? Of like what came your way. And then it became even more difficult to make choices. And in some ways, I, you know, kind of antiquated notion of rebellion kicked in of like, I'll just get into a smaller one.

1:24:57Fuck you, I'm gonna do a smaller movie. And that's also like its own kind of ego trip in some ways. And so I think I felt like a little bit like, oh, what are my moving towards? What is I don't know? It was the first time that I think I was feeling unsure. And a little bit like, um, for some reason, this image of this movie district nine on Verisaw, like the South African, like Alien movie, but it's just one point where the aliens on Earth, it's kind of, oh my god, the aliens have come, but they're like, it's not like I never seen any other movies. It's just like ones like just sitting just pissing like right, like out in the open, right?

1:25:40And I kind of like think it was like thinking of myself as like, you know, it's that weird thing where you become self -aware in a new way. And you reject that idea, yet you also realize that you've had a hand in creating in that idea and that persona. And so it's like this thing where you're like, am I a part of creating this thing or was it created for me? Am I just what the fuck is happening? I don't, I'm not feeling good about this. It's isn't where things have been leading me. And you work hard for a long time to get to that place, to then feel like, is this it? Yeah. And it's, I'm not going to grow at all doing any of these options.

1:26:26Yeah. And it's not usually the thing like, is it looking for growth, looking for something, maybe looking for, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Do you feel like your work is therapeutic for you at all? Of course. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And it's also just fun. You know, it's everything, right? Yeah. There are points where it feels more vital than out, you know, there's time in your life where you're like, this is fucking turning point. Either I restriction to put on me, I create my own restrictions or liberations or whatever may be to go to that next experience. I don't know what it's going to require, but something has to give and some way here.

1:27:06You know, I think part of it was Casey who directed, Casey Affleck who directed the movie would joke about, you know, we're going to retire kind of thing, you know, of course, I'm like 32 years old and I can retire. But in that joke was also this, this threat to yourself, I think in looking at it now going, I'm going like, I'm going to put myself out of my misery, put the world out of my misery. Yeah. If something doesn't change because what's the point? Yeah. And maybe that's just a story we tell ourselves to change. Maybe we do grow from them and we don't, I don't know, but that's the story you're telling yourself.

1:27:48I'm not moving. And if I don't fucking move and fuck it. Yeah. I'm not sure what stage these things came in these ideas, but I remember thinking a lot about like being so jealous that, you know, Seinfeld, Ellen, all of these two, these TV shows, they play some version of themselves. And like why they could do it as a sitcom. I was like, what if you did it, but you made it like it was like, what's on the joke? Like, you made it like serious. Yeah. And there's something that just like, I don't know, was tantrumizing about that idea. It's like excited me. It's really exciting. And I thought it was dangerous.

1:28:24Right. And then I, with my friend, I did a fake interview where I was being interviewed saying that I, you know, I told my agent, I fired my agent. And there's something about just saying that like doing this fake interview that I was, it's just like super exciting. Yeah. But I made like, I made the mistake of like sometimes in a new idea and the in the liberation, you fall in love with the idea yourself a little bit and you become cute. And somehow there was some part of me that was still there that was like, you can't do this. You're not, you're not good enough to do this. And you need some outside support.

1:29:08And I, and we're telling Casey about it. You know, always one of the smartest guys I know, just most people that just understands every genre of film and, you know, to my friend and you seem like a fun thing to do. And I don't think at that point, I don't know that it was like, this is going to be feature length or what it's, what it's going to be. Just the concept. Concept. Yeah. Yeah. It excited, it excited me and I told about it. And I think that he was not convinced. And I think he saw like that there wasn't enough there. Luckily, I wasn't thinking that I just had this belief in this, this feeling, right?

1:29:50And, you know, he reluctantly would come over to my house and do some interviews and film. And I just always was like a little bit disappointed and I thought it wasn't something there. But one night he'd invited Gus Van Sant over under the pretence of listening to some songs, some rap songs that I had done. And Gus came over and I think what happened, I think this was what was genius, whether Casey was aware of it or not. And getting Gus to come over, Gus was somebody I had a long history with. He directed my brother in films.

1:30:28He was old. There was a lot of history there. And suddenly, when I'm to play him these songs, I'm genuinely scared and embarrassed like, is Gus going to make him fucking crazy? Like, these were my feelings were emerging. Yeah. And so it suddenly, successfully took this outlandish crazy idea and then rooted it in like real feeling and like in my own insecurity and fear. And we played these songs and then in that fear, I then had to answer him as if I had a belief in this that I was doing and these songs were fucking ridiculous. I'm playing him. Yeah. He's very poorly written rap songs. But I have to say to him, yeah, this is what I'm doing.

1:31:19I'm quitting acting to do this with sincerity. And that was that was more able to do it. Well, I think there were brief moments. And there are enough moments where Casey was like, okay, there's something here. Yeah. And I think part of it is just in seeing me struggle to keep a straight face to convince myself that this thing that I'm doing was worth doing when I knew that it wasn't. Yes. And I think that's what the character of Joaquin would be experiencing, right? Where the character Joaquin is going, hey, look, this thing that I've done, I've built, I've created this thing. I don't want this anymore.

1:32:04I'm doing this other thing. And am I doing this? Is there anything here? And there was enough to constantly be on that edge. And really, what we found was, and the reason why we kept it a secret and really presented it as a legit documentary was really just because any time that I would do a scene with somebody that knew that it wasn't real, with our friends or something. Yeah. For the first four months, six months that we filmed, I would just turn into a joke because I was too embarrassed to actually commit to it. And at some point, I think really through Casey's encouragement, it was like, well, not telling people, you're not telling him that.

1:32:51That's what makes it so great. Yeah. That's the magic of it. Yeah, absolutely. For sure. And it's what made otherwise, it would be spinal tap, which it's not. That's something. That's right. It's some new thing, but also rooted in maybe Andy Kaufman, who would do kind of performance art. Yeah. I was I wasn't familiar with Andy and you wouldn't know where the line was. Yeah. I mean, years later, when I learned about Andy, yes, I think there were some summaries, but maybe I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not like pro wrestling for the same reason. Like you don't know, you're told it's fake, but there are guys killing each other.

1:33:29Right. And sometimes they really hate each other. Yeah. But you don't know. No, I mean, there were times where it was fun. Yeah. I'm mostly, I remember it being uncomfortable. And I don't like lying to you. I just don't. And there was a there was a moment when it got outside of our little world that we created and we went public. And I had never invited attention into my life in an active way. I'd been a part of publicity. Yeah. Yeah. For the movie, you're probably person, but this was I put myself out there as myself doing some outlandish shit, a really people that I genuinely admire. And that all I want is for them to think like I'm a decent person.

1:34:21And that was so difficult. And it was really important. Yeah. It was really important to go like, yeah. Yeah. So people hate you. And like, okay, how do I live with that? You know. And it taught me a lot about acting. It was really, it was really my first experience where I was doing something that it was probably as close to live as I might ever get, right? Because there were, you know, some things. I mean, I did a, I did a show in Vegas. I did a show on my Emmy. And we did the show on my Emmy. And we've set up this guy to tackle me that I should fight with. And it's one of Casey's friends. I, I just meet him for a second before we go out there.

1:35:07He's like, here's a news. You know, he's going to be staged right. And he's thinking. And so I get up on black and stage, you know, it's like a club, but it's fucking huge. Yeah. And start doing this I cannot remember the words. I don't know what is happening. And I'm looking at I go, where is this dude? It's all dark. You know, it's dark. The lights are flashing. And I just know that there's people in at this point, and it's public enough to where people are actively openly mocking me. They're, they're wearing disguises like me. I think even when people dress to you. Yeah. That's like me. It was like, it was like a fake, fake beard sunglasses.

1:35:53Yeah. And I was like, I'm private. I'm insecure. I'm scared. I would rather not be thought of. Yeah. And it was shocking. He put out there. And then I, I just knew the time in the song when I was supposed to be heckled that I couldn't fucking hear shit. Yeah. So I just start talking back, you know, starts talking to this couch. Scoomy this person. I can't even see them. And then I just fucking decide. I'm gonna fucking jump into audience. And as I'm like running to the stage, I see the guy luckily, because he was. He was just stage right where he's supposed to be. And I jumped in the crowd and fucking grabbing him.

1:36:33And we are pulled apart and fucking the balcars are there and they yank us up. They pull me in. And I was so fucking jacked up just with the adrenaline that I just started vomiting. And I really was sick. And it was like, well, this is just about the coolest experience I've ever had in my life. Yeah. Like that's that's next level. Like that's next level. Like that is. Wow. That extreme version, right? Because you want to have. Yeah. It's pro wrestling. You want to have that extreme feeling. I've had powerful feelings in a more subtle different way. And I'll never have that again. I don't think because it was an idea.

1:37:21It was a time. It was just when kind of online entertainment was accessible. And there was like a need for content. I think it happened five years before. It wouldn't have made much noise. Yeah. It just was like it was the first time that in that period where things were going as viral as they could get you know, it's where it goes viral for you. The whole world isn't aware of it. But there's enough where it can spin around its own circle. And so at some point we're like again, created this thing, had this idea. And then we're being pulled by the gravitation of it. And we quickly, I certainly quickly became a passenger in this thing.

1:38:12And I think it's in some ways. It is something that I have repeated in some, for the beginning of my life there is that you asked me a question earlier. Are you driving? Are you being pulled? And I think that you started by driving, but then very quickly got swept up in this thing. And that has been there's been the goal ever since that movie really taught me the value of that.

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1:40:07Tell me about the letterman appearance. I remember seeing it and just being stunned. In a way that made me more curious, wanting to know more. Yeah, well, it just so happened again. We didn't intend for the filming of this project to go on so long. We didn't know when we started putting it. It just so happened that, like, it took me a few months before I really gave myself into it. Or I just really found the character that, like, what he, I was going to be, right? And then what happened that I had a film coming out and I had it promoted. And I was just, I didn't know what to do because at this point, it had been public that I was retiring, that I was doing a record, that I was going to get my record produced.

1:40:58And so I couldn't break character. It's amazing. And so that wasn't a pre -plan thing, but it turned into a great opportunity. Exactly. And, you know, in case she was like gone on lettermaning, you're going to have to do it because what choice do we have? I was like, right. And so I go and I'm first doing a junket for a film. And I feel honest, it's one of James's films. It was a two lovers, it's called and it was a small film. And I love James, it's worth them forever. And I couldn't talk about the film in a real way, in a quote, unquote normal way because I was maintaining most it might have been better.

1:41:42Like it feels like I don't know if it was better for James's film. But whatever you did created enough interest where you want to know what this person is doing. For sure. I don't know, but it was something where again, suddenly I'm a other passenger here. And so, you know, you do a pre -interview with, you know, the producer of Letterman show and, and I maintain character, right? In the pre -interview of the interview. Yeah, this is what I'm doing. Yeah, I'm putting this record in a camera room, you know, what it was. And I hung up and I was like, I just, I admire Dave too much. Like that guy was like the guy from the right.

1:42:23And I just sure I weigh too much respect. And I think it'd be foolish to think that I couldn't pull the walk. I don't think I could, like maybe the body also was like, I'm never convinced him. Yeah. But I'm more than I said, case, I know that we have this fucking agreement to never let anybody know. I have a letter now. I just can't come back and do it to them. Yeah. So I called the producer back. And I said, hey, listen, this is a project I'm doing. No, this is real. But I hope it's okay. I'm not trying to make you guys look stupid. I want Dave to lacerate me. It's said, just you, you can do what everyone please because I didn't want them to think like I was coming out to try to make them look stupid right because there were enough people that were saying, is this real?

1:43:12Is he trying to take the piss out of us? And they said, well, I'm not telling Dave because it's a legal thing. If I did something outlandish and somebody got hurt, they couldn't say they knew it. I see. There's no way they didn't tell him something, right? Because if you ever found out, you'd never talk to him about it after. No, no, just with that now. So I went on the show and I, I didn't know what, I didn't know what I was going to do. I know what was going to happen. Yeah. It was one of the simple things I've ever done in my life because I think there were like a couple moments where I probably, again, this is where my experience and the characters experience line up, which is I don't think I want to do this anymore.

1:44:07Like I think I might have made a mistake. Yeah. And I don't think I want to do this. And that's what the character would be experiencing at the time. And so like the project that I created, that I was doing, the character that created this project that they were doing and we both are going I think we might have taken this too far. Yeah. And so it had a real energy to it there. It wasn't me sitting back on like, I don't know, fuck all these people. I'm doing this thing, right? And it wasn't. No, it was palpable. Yeah, it was like, it's so funny. Yeah, yeah, because it's just, it's so uncomfortable.

1:44:48It's so uncomfortable. It's unbelievable. And that's, you know, that's the chewing the gum. And that all was at it. None of that was no plan. No, and it wasn't. It's so funny. It's like, I look back and I'm like, yeah, we need to go out the chewing gum. I didn't even, I just, I think the fact that he called you out for chewing gum is so funny. And then your reaction was incredible. And I mean, he was just on fire. He was really funny. Oh my god. He was funny. Yeah. I mean, it was like, it's a very weird mixture of emotion because our sick and like, we're fucking dead. We're going on a live event.

1:45:35And he's fucking last year anyway. We've been dreaming about public humiliation for the character. Like that, that was our ghost peak. And it was like, it's happening. Yeah. It was like, but I don't want it. I don't like it. I don't want it. Yeah. But also, oh, I can't believe we're fucking doing it. Yes, we did it. Yeah. There must be some aspect of freedom about it. Well, yeah, it was that it was certainly the death of the public, you know, it's always the real me and a thing that I had again back to like, you know, I think some some of this happens inadvertently, but that we create this persona that were a part of it.

1:46:21And the only thing that was authentic was that there was like a person that was like, I'm trying to do something. And I'm also just really fucking scared. And I don't want it to happen anymore. Yeah. And there was something pure in that moment that revealed like a true nature. And yeah, that was, you know, an epiphany. I mean, that that was an incredibly powerful feeling. And it was like, well, yeah, that's really the only thing worth going for. The kind of like, I've created a character I've developed it. I'm staying in my character. I'm doing it. I'm affecting you. I hit my mark. I say my line.

1:46:59People cry here. I get an award. All of that was just fucking meaningless. Yeah. It was like all of that thing that I thought was my goal from when I started out young, it became crystal clear that that just was meaningless compared to this moment in which a true nature was revealed that the experience of this person was revealed. And through character, that was revealed. And it was like, well, of course, that's the, that's the fun goal. And everything else is just noise and, and, and important. And, you know, there's a speech you've given in the beginning of the movie where you're standing outside, you're going to put it on.

1:47:44And it's everything you say is true. You know, you're saying all true things about what you don't like about your job. It's really smart in that it walks that line of, yes, it's a character, yes, it's fake. And everything he's saying is true. Yeah. I mean, because, you know, these are things that I know that I've said pieces of in interviews or my friends had. We were aware of ourselves and each other. It was that, it was that moment where you, you've done it long enough where you no longer are just like doing Prask or like, what's happening? You're like, oh, I've said these things. I've repeated these stories.

1:48:32My friends says this. I see them desperately wanting that, but saying that you just become, it was like the age that I was at, like, you'd see also the part of me that is both. And so I could take those things and use them and know that I've said it or I've seen my friends say it in a way and that I just was just basically repeating that and copying that. But yeah, you know, that was a key moment that scene. I remember filming that where it was like, oh, now we're getting into a strange area and I don't, I can't fully articulate what this is. But again, there's something that feels, you know, it's revealing and giving myself over, but, you know, honestly, if it wasn't for Casey and that partnership, I wouldn't have gotten there on my own.

1:49:36I wouldn't have. I wasn't willing to take it public. I was too scared. And he saw the value. He was like, you have the idea, but you don't have the fucking guts or whatever it may be. To really, you want to crush your ego, but you're, you're fucking too scared to really do it. Yeah. And I don't know if you would have articulated it like that. But in some ways, that's what it was. I created this thing that was saying, all of this is fucking bullshit. And everything that I've done and the only value is to just like decimate it. But I wasn't really really willing to, I can't let you that in like a winking, laughing way.

1:50:22You guys see that I'm making fun of myself, right? Not like you guys see that I am actually, I am bullshit. This is all fucking. Yeah. So how has that impacted everything since? First of all, I had succeeded in the way that I didn't want to, which was I had actually destroyed my career. Yeah. It was a fear and to feel the effects of it for real, reprising because I wasn't up in coming actor that I think. So it really did change in real life? Oh God, yeah. I had no idea. Yeah. Yeah, because we'd so successfully played with reality. Yeah. Where nobody knew anymore. Right. My agent who I told a year and a half prior and didn't interview with him was like by the end was like, is this really?

1:51:18We'd gone so deep. But I think when it got so public, I think the feeling was even if this started out as a joke, even if he's playing crazy, he's actually crazy because he's doing it. And so no matter what, he's got fucking problems. Like, no matter what, there's some some stink on his fucking name right now that is not. So perception became reality. Yeah, completely. I mean, it was for a year. I was this fucking joke. How would you expect me to be? What movie am I going to be in? Where you're going to take me? You know, what are you going to do? So we were, this is embarrassing to me. I think that we were convinced that we had a real shot at making some money on it.

1:52:11And it turns out that it basically bankrupted us. I mean, you know, we pay for it all of ourself. And it wasn't very expensive. But, you know, I wasn't wealthy at the time. I'm wealthy, you know, compared, comparatively. But I hadn't paid off my house. And I was, you know, trying to get that the mortgage. And so there was a point where I was like, oh man, you know, I'm beginning to get the process of trying to work again. And also the first time going like, I got to rebuild this thing. The thing I wanted to do, you got to build something. Thank God. But I also feel like a slight desperation that I'd never felt before because as much as I was always building something, I always had like the support and good graces of people around me.

1:53:13It would be burned. It's too clean. It's completely. And so it was like, oh, shit. So the first time I was really going to the rooms like back to when I was like a kid being like, hey, please, can you, hey, can I, can I? And I remember that one of the only, one of the only offices I had was just, I won't say the movie, but just an terrible movie. And I was like, I've got a, you got to do it. I mean, I just like, but, but all that, all that. That's all. And I was just like, no, I don't know what I thought. I didn't, I didn't think it was going to be like that. And I, I have to say, I have to give credit because I think a lot of times, you know, agents will get, you know, get a bad rap, right?

1:54:05And probably for good reason and shit. But I could recently, you know, sure working with this guy, Boomer Malkin, he's a W .M. agent, he was my, Patrick White's old assistant who I'd always kind of dismissed as like the assistant and you're going to try and, you know, pawn him off me, whatever. And in this, this moment of real desperation, I was offered like real money, more money than like I should have been offered considering. And I, I'd never felt like I'd relied on anybody about decisions, you know, but I was, I was broken. It's fucking scared. And I remember talking Boomer and I was like, dude, I literally don't, I, I've never been to this.

1:54:44I don't know what to do. And he's like, do you have to do the, the movie? I said, what do you mean? It's like, it's like, it doesn't matter. I was like, no, he's like, nothing you should. And for somebody who's, you know, job is to collect 10 % off of you, looking at a real paycheck after you've destroyed your fucking career. I think if is, you know, the higher ups knew that he gave me that advice. He would have been fucking candy. I was pretty, pretty bold. And I really needed that at the time. And I was like, thank you. And I, I'm just fucking locked in again. It's like in that moment, I was like, okay, boom, done.

1:55:19I'm not after anything. This is where we are. We know it's going to find us. And not long after Amanda, Demi, reached out to me saying, hey, Paul Thomas Anderson's wants you number. And I, and I, and I, I, of course, and, you know, Paul sent me the script, which was this movie, The Master. And so that was the first. So the Master was the first movie after that. Yeah. Wow. And that was a grease. Yeah. That was like, why don't deserve that? Wow. After what I've done. Wow. Yeah. Well, it turns out you did. I mean, you know, I certainly went through the lows of, you know, everything is fucked. And then I was, yeah, I was, uh, that's a happy ending to that story.

1:56:05Yeah. That's amazing. Cheers. And then since then, what happened? The Master then became like a total immersion, but in a more classical form, I guess I wouldn't know how to, this is not my language. But like the proper filmmaking, uh, and not to say that, what, yeah, what we did was a, it was a wild experimental thing with video cameras running around, right? And this was 70 millimeter. And, you know, it was like this scale in some ways. And the, the scale of the emotion and the, the experience between Paul and Philip, Stuart Hoffman and myself that I experienced, you know, those two films and the experiences of my, yeah, you know, head back to back.

1:56:58Yeah. And, you know, in some ways, Paul is such a, uh, such a high level that to be honest, working on that movie felt like I was making I was looking here in that I was just, you know, navigating this world in this character. And I was at some point was a passenger, you know, these things, this thing started to emerge. And he encouraged and allowed and sculpted. And what happened in, in that film, the experience is that it made me go like, okay, well, with the directually Paul, you go all in because there's like, I don't, I haven't seen a movie. I don't, I don't really know what, I haven't seen it in years.

1:57:45And I don't know what it is. But I do know that there are many scenes in there that are some of the most poorly acted scenes have ever committed to film, bad over the top character stuff. And Paul, I don't remember him ever directly saying no, I think he just went around. He just avoided your shit and found those moments, you know, that where you are connected with another person, right? And there was something with I had such a deep, like, instant love and trust in both Paul and Philip. Do you think you're the same actor you were before the documentary? Or did that actually change how you do what you do?

1:58:35Yeah, of course it changed. And then the master, I think some of what I experienced during I'm still here, the idea of like a real experience in the moment. So I've, I've had previously in other films, I think I still hear a loud me to like, look, I could probably humiliated myself. It couldn't be any worse. And so in that was a liberation. And I then accepted that that was going to be a part of my process. And I welcomed it, but I knew that that was going to be going to be a part of it. And I was going to do things that if I stepped out of it, we're going to be so embarrassing to think about that it would do rail, whatever was happening that I had to just stay in it and stay in the fucking pain or the discomfort or the ugliness.

1:59:27And yes, the joy of moments. Do you take the characters home with you at night? Consciously know, I did find on on the master. There was some of the physicality was so extreme that again, there were moments where it fell apart for whatever reason you, maybe you're five weeks in and you're feeling a bit more comfortable than you. Talk with somebody on set and then the next moment it's gone. And all it is is that you're looking at yourself like you're away. And it's so scary and painful. And so it was like, I have to stay here just because I'll laugh at myself. You know, just be fucking stupid. What am I doing?

2:00:14In the documentary, would you say that was the most committed you've ever been to a character? No, it's just it was like the longest. It just went on. It was like four fucking years. It was beyond the shooting. You did it everywhere you went for a period of time. You lived it that sort of thing. Yeah, I mean, I mostly just we weren't shooting. I just didn't go out because it was like, I don't want to have to have to see anybody. I want to explain this. I just didn't talk to my friend because it was too uncomfortable. I didn't want to line. So there were like a couple times when it was like, you know, uncomfortable.

2:00:53From the time you start shooting to the characters continue to change or do you have the picture from the beginning? Oh no, I mean, it's my experience is like it's three weeks before there's anything really worthwhile here. But oftentimes you don't have that luxury. So it depends. I mean, there are things that you just, you just know some parts of it. I just I knew on the master. I knew that there was something with his mouth on the right side. I knew he couldn't open his mouth. I didn't totally understand what it was. I knew it enough to where I went to my dentist and he glued these brackets on my teeth.

2:01:39And I wrapped rubber bands on them so I couldn't open my mouth. Because I knew that. But at some point I was so locked into it that I took the rubber bands off because it didn't that's it. My jaw was locked. I didn't know why. I could have easily two weeks in, but like, I can't know this is wrong. It just was a, it is. How long was it after the film before you got back use of your jaw? Us probably pretty quick. Really? Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, it's like, it's like, you know, if you just were like, I'm holding my hands like this. And you just, you know, did that. You just do it, but pretty quickly you, I think you'd come back, you know, a lot of that character was just, just tensing muscle.

2:02:24It literally was just a physical state of making things tense so that it just was coiled. And it just held that and then you stop, you know, tensing. Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes through habit, when you, when you do things for a while, your body gets used to doing it that way and then it's hard to stop. I mean, few hours, I don't really, I don't really remember. I mean, the thing that I remember is we read that fucking movie. I had just bags of chips and fucking cookies and shit that I fucking ordered in advance waiting for me at my house because I wasn't eating for months and I went home and I fucking laid in bed.

2:03:09I don't think I left my bed for weeks and I think I just sat there just fucking eating. I literally just fucking ate cookies and watched TV and I didn't see anybody. And I think that I was just like, what is my fucking life? I just reduced to an organism that was just trying to like, eat like consume energy. And that's, that's really all I'm following that movie. So I don't know what, you know, the process was, but I don't think it was anything that dramatic. When you got offered the Joker, was it obvious that you wanted to do it? No. First, I like Todd, the director, Todd Phillips. Had you worked with him before?

2:03:53No. I hadn't. And I'm in the script very well written, you know, so it was a great script. I had this like unbelievable ending. It's like last act that was really shocking. You know, to me, it was a big movie. It was like 55 million, which I think Todd was like a small movie. But to me, it was a big movie. And it was a, you know, what they call IP, right? It's like this thing and I never, I never, I never done that. I kind of felt like, ah, but it was a one off. It was, you know, was not going to be a, wasn't, no, any contract for a sequel. And Todd seemed so like curious. And he just kept telling me that like we were going to be able to do what we wanted.

2:04:43That there was no expectation.

2:04:53There was going to allow us to play, like to try things. And I was like, well, that is just like, all I want to do is try things. And I never really have the resources. Yeah. And it's really hard for that down. But I still was very unsure. And I struggled with it for months and months. My wife, Rooney, was, you know, it's a point she was like, you're doing this. Not like I'm telling you, but like, she had a knowing. Yeah. This is going to be what you do next, but go through your process. Todd says as a joke, but it's kind of true that I never agreed to it. And I was already shooting. And I still had, I said that I was doing it.

2:05:36Like it was still a possibility. And did he ever tell you why he wanted you to do it? No. And, and actually, I remember it talked to Chris Nolan about the dark night. And that didn't wasn't going to happen for the reason I think that I was, I wasn't ready then. And that's one of those things, right? Sometimes where you go, why, why, am I not doing this problem? Well, what is it me? It's not doing it. And Swizz goes, it's because the thought about me, there's something else. There's another person is going to do something that is like, I can't imagine what it would be if, if we didn't have Heath Ledger's performance in that film.

2:06:20Right? And I don't know whether Chris Fernol was calling me saying, you are definitely the person. I can't remember the context of how we met, but I know that we met. And my feeling was, I shouldn't do this, but maybe he also was like, you're not the guy. I couldn't, I couldn't say. But it went the way it was supposed to go. Absolutely. I'm in this case too. You know, I guess so. And it, Trude was word, Todd really allowed us to play. I mean, the first two weeks, maybe it was even three weeks, three weeks sounds insane. That's why I'm questioning it. But it really might have been, there's very little the first three weeks in the movie.

2:07:01And I was doing a character that was an idea that I had with this certain physicality that Todd and I talked about. And we were doing it. And there's a part of me that was like, I know, I'm not sure about this. Now I've had that feeling with almost everything I've done. Right? And one weekend, Todd and I went into the editing suite and watched footage of three weeks. And actually to her credit, I asked me to come in also. Yeah. Because I was like, am I crazy? But Todd and I, and certainly with Rue's encouragement, I think we, you know, we looked each other. We both, it's that kind of thing where you know, it's a hard to admit to each other.

2:07:53But we both have been pursuing this thing going down a road that isn't, isn't right. And it's contrived. Yeah. And that was probably the most painful version I've ever had of that in my life. Like holy fucking shit. I've had the embarrassment of a couple scenes. But this is weeks of work. Yeah. In some ways, we had the time, and I think that in some ways, Todd and I knew just from talking that there was something more between us, even though we couldn't say specifically right then. Yeah. And there was some things that were, that were good or interesting about it, or at least we felt like different.

2:08:36Yeah. But it wasn't real. And we changed the way that I, the way that I wore the costumes, the changed hair and makeup, and changed the acting, like radically. And that was a wild experience. It was wild because it was like, I was like my first studio movie long fucking time. Yeah. So I was making, you know, these $20 million movies. And so I felt this pressure. It's like, oh shit, the studio thing. And they've paid me some. And this is this beloved fucking like character in the world. And I just lost. And I'm just terrible. And Todd was just like, bro, I love you, dude. You're fine. We're gonna do this.

2:09:30We're gonna be okay. I was like, how the fuck are you? Does he not see how bad this is? And he saw there was something more going on. You know, he kind of was like, somehow was able to just bat that to the side. I was going like, dude, this is the fucking end. Like sometimes you got to look up and you're like, blindfolds on. There's gonna be a fucking rifle shot going off. And that's it. All right. So just fucking take it like a man. This is that moment. Right? I fucked up. You fucked up. You got the wrong person. Yeah. We're going down. Yeah. And he was like, no, no way. It's like, no, you're good.

2:10:09Let's go. Just go out. Let's go out. We got the time. It doesn't matter. Let's change it. Let's work it. It's okay. So we did. And if not process again, again, was was a kind of a death of the ego. Yeah. And a death of your ideas, the death of your fantasies of like, god damn, I'm fucking good. I'm fucking good. That's a good idea. You know, I admit it's I'm ashamed, but I have had no matter how much I was I go through it. I still have those moments where I go like, it's a good fucking idea. That's going to be good. And I went in there with a fixed fucking idea. And I stopped having reverence for the thing.

2:10:52And I stopped having gratitude and I stopped saying, thank you. And I stopped saying like, along for the ride, I kind of was like, here's the thing. I started like this and do this, you know, a little bit back to the fucking release story from gladiator. It's just all that same thing that I have to kind of keep going through. Again, I can't allow myself to be in the business of the outcome. What what happens? But I know the difference between the first three weeks and the following several weeks where it's not supposed to say what's good or not, but of like, I'm in an experience. Like, I'm no longer controlling things.

2:11:34I'm reacting. And then to have that on that scale, and to be able to have the resources to reshoot things to alter moments to go back, that was special. That was super valuable. Then never had that before.