Joe Sabia

33:20Composers back then. How they did everything themselves. In a world today where most output is a collaborative effort between other band members or writers on a track, notes that come in, these guys would just sit there with a piano. Sometimes without a piano. Burlios, the composer didn't even know how to play piano. He would just sit in the corner and just imagine orchestra. And Brahms himself said that the best rendition of one of his symphonies is the orchestra in his head. They would just read the sheet music and they would just go for it. And when you think about it, these guys, it was really the only way was for them to be the sole author of what they were doing.

33:59For a lot of people in an orchestra, for all those musicians to balance out the sound, to imagine the different melodies and harmonies coming from different positions in the orchestra. To make those choices, those decisions. Now top of it be four movements. And how are we along? How does that not captivate someone today to realize that that was the way back then? That was a creative, the only way to exist in making music.

34:28When a piece is written, how much room is there for interpretation and it still be playing what's written? Hmm, it's a great question. I think back to my time with the list biographer Alan Walker, who actually, you know, I think in an interview he quantified it, tongue and cheek a little bit, but it basically said 95 % what's the score in the 5 % to be the interpretation of the style and the person of who the interpreter is. So basically means like you better not break the rules. If it says, Largo, you better play slow. If it shows those notes, you better not. I want to say, but how do we know that you are slow and my slow means the same thing?

35:08That's the 5 % he's getting at. You know, sometimes they put the BPM beats per minute up on the score. Not in the history they didn't. Yeah, they did. Yeah, yeah, I mean, composers like Beethoven would put a BPM in the score. Really? That's absolutely. I never knew that. Moller is one of the most meticulous composers that put more notes about how to play the music than itself in the score. That's fascinating. Yeah, it's just kind of a look that this is how you play it. This is how I want you to play it is what they're saying to all people. But this is how I think it goes. Yes, but there's such fidelity over the score that there's a lot of people.

35:43It's kind of in the same way that people look at the Constitution and say, the original list interpretation of the Constitution is to imagine what it was like back then. The living interpretation is to imagine it may be more adapted in modern times. It's really no different with the interpreting music. Some people believe that there's a little bit more of a flexibility and freedom to bend what they see. Glenn Gold is notorious, like listen to his Mozart. He is not paying attention to half of what's written there. More than half of the people would be like, well, that's not exactly Mozart. All the other people would be electrified by the sense that he's just being himself.

36:17Yeah. And a lot of people would say, and some would say he's breathing new life into Mozart. Yes. But would he would say, I'm just breathing me into Mozart? And that is what Mozart means to me. But you're also dealing with it's almost like Picasso making weird art. He's making really abstract stuff. But if you look at his previous stuff, he did the thing. He showed he was competent at all the technical proficiency that all the other artists were doing. Glenn Gold is the same thing. Absolute genius. He could be at any one in his meticulousness over interpretations of scores. It's just that it got interesting as he got older because then he started doing things that revealed in nature to who he was.

36:54He was remixing. He was remixing. But doing it in the most authentic way. He had the most authentic reasons for why he was doing this. So there's actually an amazing video. You should watch my friend Ben Lotti created this amazing essay called why Glenn Gold broke classical music. And he gets into this. He gets into this like, who are you to change the music? Well, this is who I am. Yeah. I'm me. And it's this fascinating conversation because classical music is kind of stuffy. It has a reputation for being snobbish, for keeping to Lopez at bay. And yeah, I agree that there has to be some degree of possibly modifying this for, modifying this, but maybe not so much for modern times as long as people are just being individuals.

37:41I think that's the key distinction. Is that as long as there is a real reason, a calling to why you're doing this. You know, look at Vick Unger. Oh, if someone's like, he's taking Bach and he's changing it. That's who he is. That's who he is. He's not doing this because he feels like he needs to stand out. He's just doing it because that's him as an artist. That's how he hears it. Yeah, that's what's interesting to him. That's right. That's right. So I think we all need to maybe like chill if someone's, you know, alter. What's also fascinating, sorry, I'm getting really excited about this, is Leopold Gadovsky.

38:12I mean, one of the most under recognized, underappreciated technicians of the piano of the 20th century. This guy added a whole level of technical ability beyond Boussoni, who is beyond list. I mean, some people argue the last real technician for the piano. He was in love with Chopin's attudes, you know, two opuses, 12 -each, opus 10, opus 25. And he basically said, I can take this material, take Chopin, and turn it into my own studies. And attudes are studies. Attudes are there for the increasing of technical proficiency. That's what the spirit of an attude is. So in the same spirit, being a technician, he said, okay, well, I can take what's already there and use that as a foundation.

38:57Music, I love, music that I worship, and then create my own versions of it. So you have one attude, instead of two hands, he turns it into a left hand. He does another one where he takes two attudes and merges it into one. We're talking brutal. I mean, we are talking so difficult. It's so difficult that Vladimir Horowitz once said that, to play Gadovsky means you need to have six singers on a hand, and therefore I don't play it. But what's fascinating is that right after the turn of the century, a lot of people immediately saw that, this remixing of Chopin, who's one of the most worshiped composers of all time, to say, it is sacrilege what you are doing to modify or remix this material that we must all put on a pedestal when we're all worship, right?

39:41So he was kind of like, no, you're misunderstanding the spirit of what I'm doing. There's a reason for this. There's a reason for why I wanted out in the world and why I believe the world can gain from its existence. So there's interesting case studies all throughout history of not only remix, but people just kind of being their individual self against massive amounts of snooty criticism to say, look, I don't need to prove myself to anyone. Look who I am. Like, look at the artist I am. And I think it's really inspiring to see where people... It is. It also keeps the form alive. It's like if it was only the old version forever, we've heard it.

40:22Yep. And sometimes by hearing the remix, you can go back and hear the old version in a new way. And discover the differences. New insight. And you almost are able to A, B tests something and then learn from the difference and find to your point, find new revelations in the old. Yeah. You know, I mean, you showed me how you were a fan of Glenn Gold playing the Goldbergs at a young age and an old age, which... Yeah, I prefer the old. Yeah. Because... Most people prefer the young, actually. Well, you said because it was a little bit more slower, more measure reflective. That's why I like the later.

41:04Right. Most people like the energy of the earlier one. I'd be curious if you took most people and then divided it along age range, if younger people. No wonder. Like the younger more. My understanding is that in the later one, Glenn Gold, instead of treating each piece as its own piece, he treated it all as one. And I'm very rhythmically conscious as a listener and maybe treating it all as one is more satisfying to the way I listen to music. Or what speaks to me in music. And it's probably a preference. If you were to go back to a previous version of yourself, you may be craving something or identifying something different in the music that you're listening to.

41:49Just taste, taste the balls, right? Yeah. I'm kind of sure. Yeah. And I also think a lot too about, there's this amazing guy who became friends with right before he passed Joe Patrich, who's an amazing sound engineer, who my friend Ben Loddy introduced me to. He basically moonlit as pirating thousands of recordings at Carnegie Hall. And he would bring in briefcases in the 70s and he'd secretly record it. And then as technology evolved, the briefcases became tape decks. And then when videos introduced, he brought in like the mini, the DV tapes, the mini DV tapes. And he would basically do this with a cadre of other individuals secretly.

42:30And he was ready to tell a story about how he did this, it's thousands of different, different, different piratings. So what's so interesting about what he gets into is that he was doing pirating, of course, not for money, just for the preservation of art. And he believes it so much in the way that he speaks to it. But he really believes that the artist is more likely to create a conception of the music in a recording studio in a way in which the audience expects that music to be played. So they say, all right, it's a Chopin. Well, I must abide by the rules. I must sound like Chopin. I must say, it can't be too avant -garde.

43:08People are going to have this forever. They're going to listen back and then say, well, the choices I made back then are going to be a little bit too edgy. So I must conform. There's a conformity to this idea of perfection in the studio, which I'm sure you've seen here. If you're fair share of people really freaking out about that, knowing that I'm about to do something forever, that's never going to go away. I'm 22 years old right now and people are going to judge me when I'm 40 with the thing I made at 22. But playing live, you are unencumbered. And back then, no one even thought it was recorded.

43:41So you are free to deviate on a path that is more you as artist, and less as a projection of what the audience expects of you to be. And because of that, you end up getting better interpretations, better music playing. I love that. Those videos all exist. A few of the recordings were dumped on YouTube, but for the most part, his archive is not for public. What's amazing is that the artist would go to him and develop friendships. I would imagine. And say, hey, were you there for that concert? I play Luster. Is that, yep, got it right here. Thank God. The labels wouldn't let me do this. The hall wouldn't let me record it.

44:13Thank God you were there. And a lot of other artists were like, excuse me? I'm not here to play with recording of me playing. This is meant to be an ephemeral thing. Yeah. A sacred ephemeral thing. And I don't want my experimentation or my strange quirks that I would only do it from an audience to be there for posterity forever. So it's a deeply divisive issue. Interesting. Yeah. Take the grateful dead. You know, they believe in recording booths to illegally pirate. Neil Young, Carnegie Hall. That was all bootleg. So artists celebrate who they are on stage. I don't know if you, in your experiences of artists would tend to agree that live is just better for recording.

44:57I don't know if that's better for recording, but to have it documented seems like a good thing. Because it's the nature of every time you play anything, it's going to be different than another time. And it's most is why we do multiple takes in the studio. You know, you do multiple takes to either find the best take or to compile the best take. So if you happen to play it your best Carnegie Hall one night, it'd be nice if there was a recording. What about the opposite though? You don't get to have the good one unless you also can get the bad one. Yes. Yeah, that makes sense. But that's also human reality.

45:35Like they're not all the best one. In some ways, you need the not good one to show that the good one is the good one. It's like that's how you know. It's protective. And if you go down this rabbit hole, there's amazing examples of where artists were doing some edgy stuff. And so divisive that people didn't know what to do with it. You know, I think of Ivo Pogorelliich, the Chopin competition. You know, competitions are there. Bartok, I think one set of competitions are for horses. Like a lot of people hate the idea of competitions. But it's such a path towards not only preserving the tradition of the competition itself, but also a path for a career for so many artists.

46:15But to go back to then, if you watch on YouTube, you will see recordings of this interpreter who showed up wearing, you know, button -down shirts whenever one also says like, suits, fancy suits, and tuxedoes and whatnot. His hair is all shaggy, completely himself, unapologetically himself, playing some of the most unique interpretations of Chopin. And it stood out like a pink rock on a beach. If you listen, it is unbelievably jagged, different, and strange. Interesting. Yeah. I think a lot of it is because it's interesting because it's compared to so many different interpretations that are all much more identifiably homogenous.

47:00So Martha Argrich, you know, one of the best living pianists of all time was on the, it was one of the jurors, and she saw how the tendency to be unique, to stand out, to be heterogeneous, was contrary to what the convention was when you have a bunch of jurors that flatten and smooth all performances out and reward first place for things that are somewhat homogenous. So she basically just resigned to the protest. She's like, you're looking at a genius right here, and how dare you not recognize him for who he is in this competition. If you go down the rabbit hole, you'll see all these people who hate the competition for this and reason.

47:39But Joe is really special because he opened my eyes to the fact that it's not about an interpretation being bad or good for him. It's about it being distinct. And I think a lot about Arthur Rubinstein, the pianist, who said, it's not about art being bad, it's just different. But I wonder, like without all of this groundbreaking distinct music and different music and jagged music, music that you've spent your whole career right alongside with your hands in it. Where would art go without it? Just be stuck with a flat mess of same -sounding music. Yeah, what is an internet video artist? I guess it's just anyone who's willing to make something that no one else needs to give notes on.

48:29To me, that's the definition of an internet artist is, it's probably cheap, probably do it myself, maybe with some friends. And no one is going to tell us how we're going to do it.

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50:20Tell me your early memories of your online experiences. Before online it was all just making home movies and skits with friends. When the internet comes around. Eight millimeter or video? What was the format? Mini -dv. If you were a high school kid during my era you were stocking up on mini -dv's and shooting things. I didn't know how to edit back then. I mean like that was before i -movie. Should you edit live in the camera? Yeah there's a lot of that. Me and my friend Paul there was a life -changing moment there because we would take the movie Golden Eye and with Pierce Brosnan and the two of us would just dub our own voices over the characters to come up with a new plot.

51:03And it was the first remixing that I had ever done. And the amount of freedom, the amount of authorship over devising a completely an aim plot line over something that was meant to be a more, you know, somewhat serious dramatic action film to me was a revelation. Who would you show them to? I didn't know anyone else cared. Just me and him later so I was a love. You did this for years and years? No I just did. I did this for a couple years back in 1999. But this idea of I guess remix, this idea of something else, something is out in the world and we these two suburban kids, these nobody's are able to kind of put our own fingerprint over something that's that that means something differently in the world.

51:54That's hip hop though. That's the same thing. Yeah. It's sampling. Yeah. There's a real freedom in that. Absolutely. You're breaking the rules. Yeah it's fun. Yeah. I never even thought of it as a rule. It's just fun if there's something that you like and inspired by that you get to participate along with it. It feels good. I guess it feels like a rule because back then so many movies began with this big FBI notice. That's like $10 ,000 fine if you redistribute this but not apples to apples there but but I mean but but you were doing that too. You were doing something because it wasn't about anyone else seeing it except for you and your friends.

52:34Yeah. That was it. Yeah. It's always been that way. Yeah. Where did that start in remixing take you? What are later iterations of remixing that you've done? In college I created this web show where I took the TV show the OC and I remix that into something called the BC because I went to Boston college and I changed the entire plot line so that a Catholic priest was the star of the show. Father so the whole premise of this token that meant one thing turned into another that meant something for this university I went to and what started out as a joke had this serendipitous effect of turning into a for that time like a well -known national soap opera that connected alums that connected the community faculty students.

53:24That opened my eyes to wow this thing started as a joke completely changed your life. Yeah. South Park started as a joke. Absolutely. It started as like cards. Yeah. Of Christmas card. But the purity to that is that when it unfolds and gets bigger you love that it's big because it was so accidental. I think a lot about that type of art today but I got a job at HBO and here I am. How did you get a job at HBO? At that time YouTube was just around the corner. It existed halfway through my senior year of college when I'm spending all my time on this web show learning how to edit producing it directing it writing it.

54:06Was it shooting involved or only taking OC footage and using that footage and making new audio? Shooting it. Shooting it. Yeah. How would you shoot it? Well we weren't in film school so we just had to use like whatever camera we had I used my dad's camera at first and then we got upgraded. But were there scenes actually from the OC or you reenacted everything? No just the characters were inspired by the show and then we developed and wrote our own plot lines. So my partner would it would write a satire of the OC? Yeah. Yeah. It began as a satire of the OC but a satire of the college I went to for being a preppy school with kids in pop collars but a satire of Boston University the rival school because the whole premise was that the kid got in trouble with the law by trying to break into a car so a priest from Boston College took him in right?

54:56It was like it was a critique on Boston Boston University as well. It was silly and the whole thing was completely silly. So then how do you end up at HBO? At that time this woman Fran Shay who is now my mentor and one of the most important people in my career she basically was looking for a young talent to start a digital lab at HBO. Now HBO at that time is known for entourage and the wire and sex in the city, band of brothers and sopranos, right? What would a digital lab look like for HBO? Well they didn't use the name HBO. It was so under the radar it used a different name but I think Fran was able to commence HBO to to start a lab to just say okay this thing called YouTube is here list experiment on it extract insights and see if we can bring it to the to the mothership.

55:43See if HBO can learn a lot of networks back then we're learning that way and they're like let's just do internet stuff and figure it out but I got there and I immediately realized I didn't like it. I didn't like being in a corporate structure. I didn't really like being told what to do. There was an arrogance to that. It was only 22 years old but I became so much more interested in going back to my bedroom, going on a computer and just taking clips I didn't own from the internet and just chopping them up and creating different types of videos to go out on YouTube. And you were doing that simultaneously as a HBO job.

56:18Yeah I was like moon lighting as this remix guy spending hundreds of hours on all sorts of crazy things that I put out in the world and they would kind of like get attention and they would get they would go viral and like for example like Good Well Hunting was one of my favorite movies. I took the trailer and recut oh I recut the entire movie and put out a new trailer to make it seem like it was a horror thriller where Robin Williams was a murderer going after trying to kill Matt Damon. Does it still exist online? Yeah can you can you pull it up? Yeah if you look up Good Will Hunting. Will Hunting was a man who had it all.

56:57A beautiful girlfriend. I'm Will. Skylar. A big loving family. I have 12 big brothers. A promising new job with the government. Why do you think I should work for the national security? My question is why shouldn't you? His life was off to a clean start. But things were about to get dirty. You have to consider it. It's right. It would be very murderous. It's right. When Will uncovers a conspiracy that can topple the government. I came across this old math thing and from the simple text he was able to extrapolate theorists. A government agent puts out a 12 million dollar reward for his murder. Now the person to do so will not only be in my good grazes but also go on to fame and fortune.

57:45The gauntlet has been thrown down. But he knows there's only one assassin for the job. All I see is that we've seen a challenge. Before an answer died it was nice. I think I've got something interesting for him. I need someone who can get through. Like me. Yeah like you. Sean, please. As the same goes, a will that hides. What's the jackpot? 12 million. He comes a will to survive. That's not a threat. That's a fact. I'll fucking kill you. This summer, two very different worlds will collide. What can happen because I wanted you to help him before. I know what I'm doing. What do you say? It's terrible.

58:23This is too important. Take care. In the ultimate battle for survival. Get out of my way. Get out of my way. Fucking mother fucker stabbed me. I want to tell me what you really think. What is your obsession with this money? All right. Time's up. Damn, I'm not what I'm trying to do. I didn't fuck up. I'm a sh**. I'm a sh**. I love you. Don't bullshit me. Don't you have your fucking wall sh** me. Why is he hiding you arrogant fucking prick? What do you want to know? What? What about you 12 brothers? You think they're all dead. You don't want to hear that sh**, Skyler. I know who I am. And I'm proud of what I do.

58:59It was a conscious choice. Oh sh**. He's dead. Don't fuck with me, all right? I've end you. I'm a fucking man. Oh my god. How do you write it? I guess it begins with just watching it a lot. So you're taking, you're taking actual dialogue from the movie. And you're changing the context of what's already being said. Secret? Yeah, and a hired professional voice actor to kind of make it all make sense by him coming in and explaining some of the premise. But then filling the gaps with dialogue that's misplaced in a way that re -contextualizes its meaning. So the narrator is telling the story. But the clips you're using from the movie are actual clips from the movie.

59:48But it means something different based on what the narrator's telling you. Yeah, and I was really inspired by this remix called Shining, where they remix the movie The Shining. Into a comedy. And you watch this trailer. It's hilarious. It's a wholesome, feel good family movie. Where Jack Nicholson's like this off -beat dad is struggling with his work and his kids is a cute little kid. And I watched that. I said, that is magic. That is the most amazing thing I've ever seen. I want to do that myself. So I just ran into a computer and I said, what movie do I love? Oh my god, go on. And there's a pile -on effect back then on the internet.

1:00:25Like, I almost so inspired to just like riff and join the conversation. It was really pure. It was really special. So how many remixes did you make in those years? That was like the first real one where I just I just took a movie and just remixed it myself because I was getting better and better at editing. And the better I got the faster it was. But I mean, the thing that really had a deep impact on me was I took every episode of The Sopranos and reduced it to a seven minute recap. The final season was coming out in April 2007. And even though I worked at HBO, I didn't tell anyone at HBO that I was secretly working on a recap that would basically spoil everything that happened.

1:01:07With me narrating really fast and showing over 2 ,000 different shots in chronological order from seasons 1 to 6. My roommate was the most obsessed soprano's fan. Paul, the same guy who I did the goldenized stuff with eight years before. And I said, write everything that ever happened and I'll narrate and edit all the clips to it. And I didn't tell anyone at HBO I was doing this. It was just just like, just like, not knows 22 year old who's like checked out at work going home from HBO to basically spoil everything that happened in the full show of The Sopranos. So I got through like force 4 of the 6 seasons and I had a 4 minute edit where I've never seen anything like this before.

1:01:49And I don't know where going to my boss, Fran and I said to her, hey, check this out. I think the world needs to see this. This needs to go on YouTube. Now back at that time, like, are you crazy? TV shows just spoiling everything in the show, unheard of. They did not market their shows that way. That was like piracy, copyright infringement. So Grand looks at this and says, wow, okay, we need to show the head of marketing. So the head of marketing is like, who is this 22 year old? What does this 22 year old do with our content? Looks at this clip where I'm just spoiling everything in a really fast paced narration and goes, this is amazing.

1:02:28Too bad we can't do anything with it. And then Fran's like, let's take you to the head of HBO, Los Angeles, biggest office I've ever seen. The nicest suit that this guy was wearing, right? And he looks at it and he's like, yeah, I mean, this is one of the most creative things I've ever seen. Too bad, too bad we can't do anything with this. And I'll never forget my boss, Fran said, she says, I'm not going to tell you not to upload it. But if you do put your roommate's name on it and you leave your name off and then put it out that way. And to me, that was just, I finished the video seven minutes and I'm like, yes, this thing can see the light of day.

1:03:08I was so excited to share this with the world. And it went out, it got like a million views in a day. And we intentionally put Paul's email at the end of it just to see what would happen. And he basically got an email from Matthew Winer who created Mad Men, was the lead writer of those pranos. And he wrote Paul's email address that said, thank you for this amazing recap. It brought back a lot of memories. Amazing. And we're like, what? With the lead writer. So cool. He just basically saw this strange thing that we put out to the world. But then almost that and the lawyers found out about this video.

1:03:44And friends like Joe, this is creating some heat. A lot of people are wondering, you know, what this is all about. You got to kind of lay low. Like don't tell me when that, that you just kind of make sure it's Paul you roommate. So then Paul gets an email from the New York Times. And New York Times wants to do a story on it. Like check out this viral video of the recap. That spoils everything in the pranos. That's there to promote the last season of the pranos. So Paul gets on the phone. And Paul intentionally reduces me to the role of I'm just an editor supporting Paul because I couldn't reveal my involvement with HBO.

1:04:24And this article comes out. And the article says that David chased the creator of the show loved it. And I went to 7 -Eleven to buy a print of the New York Times because that's what everyone wants to do when it's like in the New York Times is to have a printed version of it. And you see this half -page article that's there. And what do you see right before it? You see a two -page ad for the final season of the pranos that that HBO probably paid like $100 ,000 for. But then after that you get this like free attention. There's something that people would actually read. Yeah. And be super engaged.

1:04:59And also to kind of revisit everything they may have forgotten so that they're ready for the final season which I knew what is going to be a thing. And when this article came out, the fact that the creator of the show said that he loved it, all of a sudden, HBO was like, okay, we're completely okay with this. We're completely cool with this. Yep, this is great. This is great for the show. But it took all of that to happen to kind of do a paradigm shift for HBO to realize, wait, this stuff is not dangerous. This can actually help promote. It's like having your song on the radio. Yes. And just because some kids ended up putting it on his gritty place called YouTube doesn't mean that it cheapens your prestigious brand.

1:05:39It cannot really support it. Add value to your IP. What were some of the things that you were doing at HBO at your day job at HBO at that time? We would go to comedy festivals and we would be like cameraman for people like Daniel Tosh who would go around and we'd do red carpets with people like back then, like Louis CK and Bill Burr. But basically, you have all of these amazing comedians in 2006 who had not yet blown up in this era where they have, and here I am as a cameraman like filming all these different comedians. That was actually really cool. I actually really enjoyed that. But it all felt like I was just doing tasks that other people were asking me to do.

1:06:21And there was something about that that. It wasn't that I rebelled against that out of spite. It was more that I was just so much more interested to create things on my own terms. And I felt validated making videos that a lot of people watch because it made me say, I'm quite angry, I'm just going to be a real answer. I'm just going to go on my own.

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1:08:02After the sopranos did well, what was the next thing that really moved the needle? I drove from England in Mongolia in a tiny car, 10 ,000 miles. And I said, when I go to Kazakhstan, I'm going to try to get everyone to sing one line from two poxia course changes. And did you pick the song? It was really, it's an aspiring song. If you really listen to the lyrics, there's something really beautiful about the message. So, I think I also just saw the juxtaposition of, okay, you have these people in Kazakhstan who are so far away singing a song that's so popular in America that there's something just so offbeat about it.

1:08:44So I think I captured like 45 people. It also brings the world together. It shows where all one. Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah. And I put that video out in the inner scope records. It's like, hey, like, what if you do that for a weaser in Japan for one of their songs? And I went to Japan. It was another example. Just create art for fun. Let's see what happens. Yeah. How did you end up at Kondynast? I was spending a few years just developing somewhat of a very niche reputation for just kind of doing these remixes. And I had been in a music group too. I got one of the early YouTube grants to create this channel where I had all these musicians doing musical experiments.

1:09:24And that was really great. I was really honing my sense of live action using cameras because before that it was all ripped stuff from the internet and chopped it up. And now I'm in a studio with filming musicians with amazing sound recording, with amazing talent and filming it and then putting it out to the world. So was musical waste an important part of it for you? Yeah, very much so. Because I got to spend all my time with Virtua. Classical musicians and then having them do crazy pop culture medley's. All in one take. Yeah. So 2013 comes around and I got an email from a guy at a company, Scott Dan Rosen at a company called Fullscreen.

1:10:05And they said, Hey, we're aware of the work that you do. Would you want to put your hat in the ring to be one of 10 featured directors in this MX -sponsored Vanity Fair series called The Decade series where to celebrate 100 years of Vanity Fair. They have 10 directors representing 10 decades where they could do whatever they want. Any short film that depicts the decade. And people like Judd Abitau, Don Chiddle, Brett Ragnar, it's amazingly documentarians. So I said, yeah, of course. And they said, Well, we like you because you're a digital creator because you're not like all these other guys. And we told Vanity Fair it's really important maybe to have one of the 10 directors be so digitally native, not from the Hollywood scene.

1:10:52So I said, cool, I can I pick the decade? And he goes, now the only one left is the 1950s. Everyone else picked their decades. So I said, okay, cool. Yeah, let's do it. So I ended up creating this one take music video that depicts all of the events that happened in the 1950s through this one take song and visual theatrics. You'll notice a theme like this obsessive yes. What got into one takes? One takes the magnetism of being able to shoot something in one take. This sense of an audience looking at a one take video saying, where does it go? I need to keep watching. I need to see what's going to unfold because there's no cuts.

1:11:37It's not a lucery. It's all what you see is what you get. And the plot line is super linear in one direction. And okay, go is doing music videos back in 2006. That kind of really inspired me because you see the effort. You see the preparation. It goes back to your love of classical music. It's like it's it's virtuoso when you're doing it all in one take. I've never thought about that. And on interrupted too, you don't have multiple cuts in a live stage performance. I understand everything has to be perfect. Yeah. Well, I didn't really make that connection before. Tell me the story of the 73 questions.

1:12:13Well, that decade series is connected to 73 questions because when that video that I made, this music video that recaps everything in the 1950s went out, it was alongside a lot of other films that were not as offbeat as that. That were not as I guess conceptually out there. It's to me it was just the internet. It's like all the internet audience is going to like this. This is going to be strange and different. But because of that, six months later, I got a phone call from Condina saying, we remembered you from that thing that you did with Vanity Fair. And for Vogue, we wanted to see what you would do with Sarah Jessica Parker, who is just so vulgar and an amateur.

1:12:57The editor of Vogue loves her. We wanted to see what you would do with her if there was four hours. I think she was promoting a shoe line back then. And the opportunity was there to say, okay, like let's take someone like Joe and say, what would you do with her? And basically, my immediate reaction to this was I really have never had the opportunity to know what Condina asked was, which is the parent company in Vogue. Be I never really read Vogue. I knew Sarah Jessica Parker was the woman from Sex and the City, but I've never seen that before. So for me, if I had the opportunity to be with someone who's only known as being Carrie Bradshaw from Sex and the City, the show I've never seen before, then I just want to do something that's about her.

1:13:42I want to do something where I'm unabashedly going and not knowing a lot about her, just like and learn about her. And of course, everything has to be that perfection that you said. Everything needs to be this one take that I'm currently obsessed with. So I said, what if I just go in and one take this kind of theatrical quasi -state quasi -real rendition where I'm just barrage in her with one question after another and she's just seamlessly answering it, like slaying every question effortlessly. And it was just so weird. It's just a weird idea. I was with my friend Vince Pion at the time who would DP so much of the project.

1:14:25He'd DP the vanity fair project and he said, you know what'd be cool? What if she looked at the camera while you were doing it? So you hear my voice, but she's looking at the camera, so it feels like the camera is the audience. The camera is the interviewer and therefore the audience. So I said, that's amazing. Let's try that. So she read the pitch. She said, okay, cool. Come by. We'll have it in my house. No one's ever been in my house before. You can see between Federer and Sarah Tuscac Parker. There's a theme of just going people's homes for the first time with cameras. But yeah, she said, okay, let's do it.

1:14:58So we show up with a crew and we kind of just try to implement how to do something like asking 73 questions all rapid fire uninterrupted. It's really hard. Absolutely. You need a team of people. It's not just the camera. It's me reading the questions. It's a sound guy with per sound. There's an AC doing focus. There's a small herd of people all having to do a pre -rehearsed choreography mapped to a room knowing that you're trying to stagger it all out so the audience doesn't lose attention. So it feels like it's moving. It's moving and you can't make any edits. Sarah Tuscac Parker needs to be on.

1:15:37She needs to be remembering her answers and we need to be on because if you step into the shot, you're ruined the shot. Right? So what I realized quickly is you need to rehearse. You need to do this once. Okay, great. You need to do this twice. Okay, great. The production guy forgot to move the ottoman and we almost tripped. All right, great. Fix that. We'll iron that out. Great. Third take happens. Okay, that feels a little bit smoother. What people don't realize is that Sarah Tuscac Parker, in that first time ever doing this, refused to give her real answers as I was asking every question. She would just say, but after every question because she wanted to keep it real, she wanted to keep it authentic, which says so much to her abilities as an actor, to want to give herself in a real nature, but to perform it in a way that feels like it's elevated, tightened.

1:16:29So eventually by the seven takes, she says, I'm ready to get my real answers. We were all smoothed up with the choreography and boom, if I have in half minutes, we had our final take, we had all of our answers and it worked. Remember looking at playback on the monitor, I'm like, oh my god, I've never seen anything like this before. This is really funny.

1:16:47It's a really little received, was that first one? It was big. It was big. Yeah, I think a lot of people in first and foremost in fashion saw it. This goes up under the Vogue banner. What a weird video this is. This isn't some glossy photo shoot, or they're having like wind in the hair, has B -roll and like talking about like what fashion means to them. This is Sarah Tuscac Parker talking about what she wants on her pizza. How many of you done this far of the 73s? It's been 10 years over 90 episodes, 90 won or something. Can you remember which one took the most amount of takes to get it? Sarah Tuscac Parker's up there with seven.

1:17:29I forgot who. There were some people with 10. I think for that person with 10, I think they just really wanted to nail it and maybe there's a little bit of they were within reach of a version of the stuff felt even more seamless. I was actually really inspired by that level of dedication. These people are really busy. Why is this person asking for it? Eighth, ninth and tenth take? I was pretty inspired. I like it whenever anybody wants to better their performance. I think it's a good sign. It is. Even if it's great, if they think they could do it better, I really want to see that. Yeah. Yeah. And they're also the opposite.

1:18:08Where one time there was just one take and that was with Liam Gallagher. One take only. The rehearsal is the one take. There's no walkthrough, nothing. Can we watch that one? Of course. Let's watch that.

1:18:27Take it easy, play cool. It's just rock star, I don't know what we're doing. Liam Gallagher, I'm so happy to be asking you 73 questions. Waited for this for a long time. Let's get into this. So how are you these days? I'm good, very good. All right. What's currently on your mind? Ooh, man's just a city. Yeah, your city supporter. I'm glad we're doing this in Hemstead Heath. It's a change of scenery for the series. You run here a lot, right? Yeah, I'm running there for a bit. I'll be in Sony. Yeah, I like to run on there when I can't. Do you run for distance or for speed? A distance. If you couldn't be Liam Gallagher, who would you want to be?

1:19:07John Lennon. Out of every film that you've ever seen in your entire life, what's your favorite? Quarture Fainier. Do you have any irrational fears like snakes, airplanes, clowns? That type of thing? Mice. What's the best present anyone ever gave you? My brother fought me at John Lennon Necklace that he wore when he met them at Harishi. That was the last nicest thing you ever done for me. Give any kind of motto or mantra that you live by. Living there now. Forget it, don't worry about some motto. Okay, what's the topic you could spend hours upon hours talking to me about? Ooh, the Beatles. I found you at a pub.

1:19:47What would you be drinking? All of them. I like Commar Lag or Guinness. And how do you prepare your tea? I like it with milk and no sugar. What would you say is your spirit animal? Dolphin. Now you weren't always in the music, but how did it bloom for you? I got in the music when I was about 18 and all those people I get in it when they're chewing that, but I was in a football and so was about 18 so that's I was a lake. I was a lake for more. Now what are your favorite lyrics of any song ever? I need to be myself. I can't be no one else. Feeling supersonic. Give me gin and sonic. Can you rank your favorite Beatles records from least the most favorite?

1:20:27No, I can't. I love them all. What are your top five favorite Oasis songs? The forever supersonic cast no shadow. Go one so far. Why don't you just leave one more? Don't ask one more. Wonder wall. All right, there you go. Now a couple years back you said you own 2010 Marines. Do you still have that? Did I say that? Yeah you did. No, no, no. No, I don't own 2000 time Marines. It's not anymore because I sent a give them away and that's the beautiful people. Where did that rumor come from? I don't know. All right. Now if you could form a super group with anybody from the history of music and you're the singer, who else is in the band?

1:21:11Right. He's born on drums. Jimmy Hendrix honky Tsar. And... I want to count on bass. What audience do you want to play? I don't. What audience would you play? What audience would you play? Yeah, what venue? A main road. They're not main roads because it's not right there. Anywhere, anywhere that allows us. Liam, what would you say is the single hardest part of the rock and roll lifestyle? The hardest part is staying true to yourself and keeping it real. Right. Is there anyone today you say is a true living rock star? Me. Was expecting anything less? Exactly. And of these living rock stars, who got old and stayed cool?

1:21:56Neil Jung. How do you think you've changed rock and roll? I think I've changed rock and roll. I just do exactly what it says on the scene. Yeah, but would you say that rock and roll still exists? Yeah, it does well. I'm still there. What do you like and dislike about music today? Um, I like dislike. No, I like music, man. I don't dislike it. What's your favorite part of performing on stage? Favorite part, performing on stage, you're seeing the people I'm making them bounce. And when you're standing on stage, you have such an iconic stance. How did that come about? Well, I never wanted to be Mick Jagger and I'm not in the dance scene.

1:22:42It's not my scene and that's so uh, I just think, you know, you just stand like that and you get a bit more power behind the, behind the vocals. What's the most underrated band of the 90s?

1:22:56Oh, Aces. How about the most overrated band? Blur. What was your favorite thing about the 90s? Oh, the favorite thing about a night is there was no camera phones of people just living in the moment. Do you miss that? Yeah. What was your least favorite thing about the 90s? The least favorite thing about a night is I don't have a, I don't have a least favorite thing about a night. The nighties were beautiful. All right, you can't have this interview without asking. What's the best party you've ever been to in your life? Best party of the event. Oh, you've seen some parties. I can't really think of the best one.

1:23:35Really, there's been quite a few in that. Well, there's got to be one, right? There's a guest but I can't think of one of the sorts of them. That's okay. But do you have any hangover remedies? They are straight back to the pub. They're messing about lag. Yeah, here are the dogs. Don't sit and dwell about on Angle, it's just go straight back again and it'll work itself out. It's been a few years since the 90s. Things are different. What's a wild night out for you these days? Oh, I don't have wild nights out these days. I have wild nights in. If you were forced to sing one song for the rest of your life, what song would it be?

1:24:10Live forever. What would you say is the best lesson that your mother taught you? To be myself and not give a f*** what people think. What's the biggest lesson that you've learned from being a father? Being a father. Um... I'm talking off, I'm not, I don't know. Yeah? Sure, yeah. Can you tell me something that your kids do better than you? Digest their food better than me. Now there's been a resurgence in Oasis fans over the past few years. What's it been like to see a new generation discovering your music? Yeah, now it's amazing. We're very lucky to be alive and still witnessing the youth at our gigs.

1:24:50Right? There's a lot of people that pass away and you never get to experience that. In the 18 years at Oasis were together, what specific moment makes you the most emotional? Um, I just think getting a record deal, you know, I was born as that kind of concern and I would done like Ned Wiff and main role and all that. I think getting a record deal and going into the studio and developing the songs and that was, that was, um, that was the most important thing for me. Yeah, no, for sure. What's your guilty pleasure? Ooh. Your guilty pleasure. Hello. Has anyone ever left you feeling completely star -struck?

1:25:32Yeah, Ringo star. Ringo. I can see that. She looks like a pretty good guy to hang out with, right? Yeah, he's a dude. He's my favorite. When you're getting ready for a show, what's your pre -stage ritual? He stays rich, you're old. Uh, I drink a lot of, um, one of the element and, uh, apple cider vinegar. It actually sounds pleasant. Yeah, he heads up. Obvious fan placement. Aw, a pet. What a wonderful display of popour. Nice. Uh, who's the most rock and roll player at Manchester City and why? Uh, well, it used to be Mike Somerpeh. In the 60s and 70s, because he used to, he never wore shimp heads and that.

1:26:10He rolled his socks down, he got stuck in. But these days, he's over the centuries now. But I may be surged your aguero. All right. Who'd you like to see relegated from the Premier League? United. Manchester United. Okay. Who'd you rather be stuck on a desert island with, Muhammad Salah or Alexis Sanchez? Who? Muhammad Salah or Alexis Sanchez? Uh, oh, god. Alexis Sanchez. Now I heard that Danny Boyle just found someone to play you in a movie. Who's someone that you would have not minded to play you? Who are they not my own playmen? Yep. And, um, I'm easy, man. You know, I only got the air cut right and the, you know, the chat and that.

1:26:47I'm down. I'm curled with anyone. Bigger question. Who do you think should play Null in the movie? Oh, the little fella, I've had an deck. The deck. Yeah, that's deck. Is there a topic you wish people would stop asking you about? Uh, yeah. Yeah, are you hiding that parkour? I am hiding it. Shit's off. Oh, we got some dogs. Liam, would you consider yourself a dog person? I am, yeah. What rules? Do you try to follow the best you can to keep everything in check? Just, just, my voice, like, when it tells me I got a bed, it's very, it's loud in that, like, years ago. It used to be very quiet. I know when I got a bed these days.

1:27:25Right. How'd you describe your personal style? Um, big and baggy and authentic. How do you think it's evolved over the past two decades? Yeah, I wasn't evolved. It's still the same keeping it real. Who was or is your style icon? Uh, George Anderson was cool, Paul Weller's cool, Stone always always dressed cool, and he had to mundeys. What's a wardrobe staple every man should own? A parkour without a doubt. He had a lot of experiences in your life. What would you say is the most incredible thing that you've ever seen? Man, just a city winning the league. What's the last show that you binge watched?

1:28:04The last what? Last show that you binge watched. Ah, things what? I watch some, I don't know the name of it. I watched it on Netflix the other day I think about this. Some lady who had an affair with two inmates. Can't remember the name. Find out for you. Get back to none that one. What's your most overused phrase? Ooh, old -used phrase. Marseille. You go resurrect one person from history, put them in the world today. Who would it be? John Lennon. Why? Because he's the main man. Liam, can I ask you what makes you happy? Makes me out here. Early mornings make me out here my children and being alive.

1:28:45What was the last time that you cried? Oh, the other day. Well, maybe you cried. I stopped me to sew on a coffee table. Hmm. Looking back on your life is there anything that you would have done differently? No, never. Everything happens for a reason. Is there anything you regret saying? Hmm. Mad for it probably about nine million times. How do you handle regret in general? Hmm, I don't regret, I don't regret much. What would you say is your greatest talent? Singing. And where do you see yourself precisely ten years from now? Oh, that's a tough one. No? I don't know. Liam, that's question number 72 and now for the final question, question number 73.

1:29:32How do you feel about ending this interview with some word associations? Yeah, why not? Here we go. Number one. Kiana Reeves. Ooh. It's all dark and it's... SpongeBob. Legend. Farmers markets. Good for the soul. Skinny jeans. It's edible. And this interview. After you said... That's a wrap. Yeah. Dude, we did it. We did it. Incredible. How did you not laugh? It's hard because I'm so focused with getting this done and not ruining it, that it was really hard for me to pay attention to the answers as it's happening. There's a lot going on with this. It's been so many years of doing this series that I'm more and more aware of how...

1:30:27Kind of insane my character is. To just show up, just asking all these questions, completely unconcerned with any follow -ups, just one after another. It's an insane premise. Yeah. But with Liam got me to do this with Liam Gallagher. How was he chosen to do this? Sally Singer when she was at Vogue really believed that Liam was so Vogue and so... It's a great idea. And she really has great taste. And it was an offbeat choice, but he really... He is a fashion icon without a doubt. So we flew out to London and a small crew, you know, seven people. He said, okay, let's pitch the premise of going to Hemsted Heath.

1:31:09It just happened to be 99 degrees that day. Really hot. And he hadn't shown up yet. So before the celebrity shows up, we always try to do a tech walkthrough. And the path for this was very much go down this dirt path. We'll have them stop under the tree because they're shade. Then we'll go around and then there's like a dog walk. And we'll end over there. It's about like maybe half a mile walk. So when it's 99 degrees, it's like this is not going to be pleasant for anyone. Liam's maybe not going to like this. So we do the tech run with a stamp in there doing the whole thing, which is really helpful.

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1:33:09Tetra -grammatine .com Do you always do a tech run through with a stand -in? Yeah, mostly. One or several until you get it. Just one? Just one? One's enough to kind of know the flow where we're going, especially for camera, you know, just on that. It's really helpful for him to kind of have a sense, because he's walking with a big camera, right? So we come back and we hear that Liam's there. And I see him. And the manager's like, all right, go up to him and just kind of explain what you need to do. And he's wearing a parka, like a black parka with sunglasses. And I'm like, this guy's got to be hot right now.

1:33:58It's like 99 degrees. How is he wearing this parka? So I go up to him and you know, at that point and still today, I'm not really nervous when I go up to people, especially like Liam Gallagher. I'm just like, look, my job is here just to communicate what we need to do and let's get it done. So I say, all right, so I'm going to ask you 73 questions. And why don't we start with a rehearsal? Like walk through. So you have a sense of where we need to go, where we need to land. Because then this thing's going to be multiple takes. I just want to make sure, you know, you're comfortable, but I want to make sure the crew's comfortable.

1:34:29So we have something that seems like it seems less because we always do more than one. So he goes, no, not man, I'm cool. Let's just do this. And I'm like, are you sure you don't want to rehearsal? Sure you don't want to just like walk through and see where you're going. And he's like, no, let's just press record and do it now. So I held up the crew. And I'm like, guys, I think I think there's no second try at this. I really think we only have one peg. And there's a moment where we're just like, no one's grew up. It's a team effort. Like Liam may be able to pull it off. But like, can we? Am I going to screw up?

1:35:06Is that we're going to trip? And the camera falls? Like we mainly have one shot at this, right? So we just get going. We just do it. I'm just throwing questions at him. What do you have a fear of? My's. The spirit animal question. Such a stupid question. I ask people all the back then. That's stupid. But for him to say dolphin to that. And as we're walking, it's a surreal experience. Because I'm basically standing behind the camera. Just waving and saying, go this way, go this way. Now this series, I always do ADR myself to kind of clean myself up. So if I give stage directions, I know I can always go and post and just clean it up.

1:35:42So I had this surreal experience where I'm with Liam Gallagher. Asking him a question like, hey, you know, rank all of your, your favorite ways up, sell them. And right after I'm just like, get under the tree. Get under the tree. They're shade. So you're talking in between the questions? I'm just like basically just like this surreal experience of having to order. And I have to yell it. Because I'm 15 feet away. I have to like vocalize because I'm behind the camera. I see. So I just want him to go where the camera looks good. So the sun's not on him and he's in the shade. I'm like, take a left.

1:36:20Take a left. I'm like, it's crazy. And he has to, and he's doing it. He's a real cool guy because he's listening. He's in instructions. I'm throwing at him. It's a surreal experience. Then at the end, we stack the questions so they get a little bit serious, you know, like regrets. And like, where do you see yourself in 10 years? And you can tell these like visibly uncomfortable at the end. He's just kind of like, you can tell these over this thing. So we cut celebratory moment. We actually pulled it off. And I go, Liam, that was great. But let's let's go back and do it again. Like I know that we can do a better job capturing you.

1:36:53You know, if you want a safety take, let's do it. And he goes, oh man, we gotta do this again. It's fucking hot. It's fucking hot right now. So then he kind of walks back half mile to the starting point. And after a couple minutes, my producer, Marina, whose my now wife, she comes up and goes, Joe, I can hear his audio in my headphones. Like, it's not good. I got what he's saying. And Marina's like, he's saying over and over again, the same for me. The same for me. The same for me. So I'm like, oh my god, everyone get back to the starting line. Everyone go back. The whole crew, we started like running.

1:37:29We get back. And he's completely gone. He just disappeared. Not even a car. He just left. He's almost on the other side of the film. And I look back at it. It's like, what is more Liam Gallagher than a one take, just go with an interview where he ends up hating the experience? Yeah. And leaving. And just leaving. Walking out without saying goodbye. Yeah, perfect. How beautiful is that? Yeah. How authentic is that? You got the full Liam Gallagher. That's it. Yeah. If we did a second, it wouldn't be him. Yeah. It's flashing back so many memories to having done this for so many years. And I think, I think it's strong such a comparison to this film with Roger Federer for me because I'm noticing just how how different it all is.

1:38:22And I spent many years of my life in this kind of mode of just having to make and make and create. And there's always one person right around the corner that you just have to pump out a video with. And I've been thinking a lot these days about this difference between have and want. And what I mean by that is that 72 questions and all the other videos that I made during my time at Kandahnast is that so much of it is under the conditions of a very famous person coming in and having to do this video because other people told them that it's one stop along the tour of something that they're promoting.

1:39:05Liam wasn't promoting something. Roger wasn't. These are specific asks from the editors. But for the most part, there's an album, TV show, movie coming out. And I think that when you get in the mindset of that you're doing something for someone else, it can be something that, first and foremost, you want it to be good. For many of these people, it is for themselves. But it's also there to please other people to say, look, I'm doing it. I'm doing it because I was asked. And it can be more of a performance than a moment. Yeah. Yeah, like it's not like we're, it's not like I'm probing beyond the surface to really capture a deeper sense of what they feel about things.

1:39:43It's very much intentionally kept to be light. Now there are times the cold Kevin's going to say she's feeling raw because someone died or Taylor Swift is going to say, yeah, like, like a hip -hoping slut -shaped. And there's glimpses of those moments. But by all means, it doesn't really go much deeper than that. But the experience that I had making a movie with Roger around one of the most intimate moments of his life was vulnerable moments around his life. Revealed for me the dichotomy of people wanting to do something because it means something to them and not having to do it for anyone else but themselves.

1:40:22And creating in that mode where you're capturing someone because they truly want to be there because the weight of the circumstances are so personal. The level of trust in that mode is a very different thing. And I'm at this point where it's like, yeah, I want more of that. That's great. Yeah. So I feel really grateful to have had it with Roger, but now I'm kind of hooked on it. What's next? You'll find it. We'll find it. Yeah. Tell me about some of the other formats besides 73 questions that you've done multiple. Some of the things that are really popular are getting celebrities to answer questions that are most searched about them.

1:41:09So we took Google AutoComplete and then turned it into an interview series. That's kind of this really trippy and amazing way for someone to kind of see how their name and brand is reflected through the eyes of an audience. I've never seen that. Tell me about the format. So if you did this... You mean the example. Well, if you did this interview and you typed in, what does Rick Rubin? And you just type it. Even before pressing search, you're going to get a list of popular predictive searches that the world has been making about you. Like maybe it's think about philosophy, think about meditation.

1:41:45Make what does Rick Rubin make? And we realized that if you take a screenshot of the top five predictive searches that come after a query like what does or how does or where can with the celebrity's name, you can end up having those behavioral interview questions that the celebrity can answer. That's really interesting. Yeah. And it's surprising. Like what is Jennifer Lawrence's and then we see the predictive searches. High, age, star sign, favorite role. This is what the world is searching about her so then she answers it. And that's become the most popular series we've ever made. It's like like over a billion, a billion views on that.

1:42:29With 200... And such a simple idea, but it really makes sense. Yeah. I mean, I give that credit to my friend Ian Edgar. It's an amazing remix DJ himself. And then we do other things too. Other things with experts is not just celebrities. If anything, I would hope that the world sees our output, our creative output of different shows under all of these brands like Vogue EQ, wire, New Yorker, Vanity Fair. And sees what we did with experts in some of the things that I'm most proud of there, formats like five levels where we get an expert who's amazing at maybe a new brain technology or someone who's study string theory for a living and their job is to explain the premise of what they do.

1:43:11In five levels of increasing difficulty with five people of increasing age. So level one is a five -year -old. Can you explain your strength theory to a five -year -old? And that begins the video. Level two, a 13 -year -old. Explain strength theory to a 13 -year -old. And then you have a college kid and then you have a post -grad who's study string theory and then the last level is up here. Someone who spends their whole life studying it. Great idea. Yeah. Yeah. That's an example of something where it's like you're getting real education. In a way that's sticky, it's memorable and it just feeds it in a very relatable internet, friendly way.

1:43:47Is it a series? Yeah, it's a series. There's tons of episodes of it. What do you call it? Five levels. Five levels. Yeah. There's also this series where I have been interviewing Billy Ailesh every year since she was 15 years old before fame. How did you know to start before if she was famous? You know, it's just, it's this way to say, all right, well, if we film something and hold on to the footage, then let's see what happens with their career. And maybe we can bring it back to them when they become a different, someone with a very different version of them, self -when fame reaches them. Have you done it with anyone else or just her?

1:44:23I mean, we've banked a few first episodes of people, but we never released it. Because the goal is to wait a long amount of time until you see enough transformation so that when they see the footage, they look at it and they go, I can't believe I'm that person. But with Billy one year later, there was already enough transformation. She went from 200 ,000 followers on Instagram to 6 million. She went from sweet bubbly and innocent to goth and dispassionate goth. Like completely. And then, you know, we did it, like, 50 million views. It resonated for people who didn't even know who Billy Ailesh was.

1:44:57It resonated with all of us to imagine previous versions of ourselves and how much growth and development we've all taken on. But it just became a really surprising thing when she has to do that every single year afterwards. Do you make any things that are not series -based? They just one -offs? That was very much the model working in a company like Kandai is. When any one thing is a hit, figure out how to force a series behind it. I see. Yeah. How do you say the work has changed since leaving Kandai? I'm no longer in a company that expects a certain amount of volume of videos to go out the door attached to a certain budget.

1:45:38With expectations of just keep on going, keep on going, keep pumping them out. We did our best with our resources to try to create things that had the highest quality we can under those constraints. And it's almost like, I think so much about music, about how someone can spend 20 years on their first album. And then they have one year for their self -moral. I mean, you spend your whole career seeing how this works for people. Yeah. Do you read the comments on the videos that you post? Yeah. Yeah. Tell me what they like. I think a lot of people are there because they chose to click on it. And I think that's the one thing we all need to realize about algorithms, especially on YouTube is that there's a choice to click with TikTok and Instagram is in the feed.

1:46:22Like, you have no choice to click. It's just like right in front of you. So what I think about a lot with YouTube is that if you're there, you got enticed enough to kind of click on a thumbnail on an image, but comments do tend to be very polarized. It's like a 10 star rating on a restaurant. You either get a bunch of ones or a bunch of tens and not much in the middle. So I think with comments like people either love it or they hate it. And I tend to look at the ones that love it just because they're probably offering a reason about why they love it. I'm not interested in a reason why someone hates something.

1:46:52You know, if I'm an admirer of the work that I've made and I love the thing that I put in, I'm going to identify more with people who also loved it. I'm going to identify less with people who didn't like it. How do you think the internet has changed since you first started engaging with it? That was a lot more fun back then. Just a bunch of hobbyists. Why do you think because it was all rooted in hobbyists? Just a bunch of people not doing it for a career. They're doing it because they loved it. Someone had a bunch of Legos sitting around their house. So we'll just make something with that. When I get back for my full -time job, I'm going to go back and set up stop -motion animation on a bunch of Legos.

1:47:28It's like that was the culture back then. Can it still be though? Yeah. I think it still exists. Of course, it still exists. Back then, humans would curate that. So the main page would show a bunch of that art because humans curated it. And, you know, I do think algorithms today can serve a bunch of videos to you. If it's about Legos, it's just that your all the time around it on screens is filled with a different incentive structure for people who are there. And it's there for money, there for audience, there for hate. A lot of hate. So I feel that the context of a session on the internet, when you watch one thing that's beautiful, it's just surrounded by so many other things that kind of make you disappointed.

1:48:18It makes you feel not happy or healthy. And maybe I'm projecting my own experience, but that is the major reason why I'm trying to. I think most people feel that way. You think? Yeah. Yeah. Would you say there's a theme that runs through your work? Well, I think that there's work that has people in front of the camera and work that doesn't. And I look back at a previous era where it was less about people on camera. And it was more about what clips I can take. And I feel kind of lucky to have desired to poor countless hours of fixated attention into my project until it's the thing that I wanted to be.

1:48:58Maybe there's a little bit of ADHD in that. You know, if you Google too much, you realize that people with ADHD get super fixated on one thing and they have a hard time focusing on other things. I think that's what it takes to make something great though. Yeah. More of them in, I don't know, it's a rule, but it seems to be often the case. What person's not fixated on the thing they're obsessed with or things that they find joy in? Yeah, if you don't care, it'll show. Right. But my friend Paul Trillo gave me a compliment. I'll never, he's an amazing digital artist who's doing the most groundbreaking work in AI.

1:49:31You have to see his work. It's just unbelievable. But he said something along the lines of for the project's idea with people on camera, Joe, you're really good at getting people to do things they don't normally do. Yeah, I really think about that a lot. Because to me, I'm just, I'm so curious to just try to get to the truth of something or to try to get someone to feel safe to maybe do something that's out of their comfort zone. For me, it's just curiosity, but then it also becomes a challenge. It's like, well, can this happen? And then when it does, I think it's just, I think we've both gone somewhere to place me in the golfy floor.

1:50:10I think it's just an interesting creative challenge. Since the federal movie came about sort of accidentally, will it be different if the next movie is started intentionally? Of course it's going to be different. And can it be? Maybe the next one also will just happen in the course of things that you're making and you realize, oh, this actually might be a film. Yeah. What do you think? Possibly. I think it just depends on the entry point. If a streamer identifies me as a potential candidate to do this thing that's already that they're already working on, of course, it's never going to be like the Roger Duck.

1:50:50If I have a passion project that starts really pure and it grows to be this great thing, and then maybe there's some financing after that can help with the marketing and the distribution ends up in a film festival. And that's a little bit more in the vein of Roger. But to go from home videos, biggest streamer, one of the biggest streamers on the planet, biggest dock of the year is the all odds are against that happening twice. I'm not seeing that ever again, probably. And that's fine. It is fine. It wasn't your intention in the first place. It wasn't. No. It was absolutely helpful to remember why we make the things we make.

1:51:26We're not making them with this idea that they're going to perform in this way. We're making a thing that we like. We're excited to show to people. That's it. That's right. Whenever happens after that is some bonus. That's right. It's kind of like this need. It's not different than eating. Like when you're drawn to an idea and you dedicate yourself so much to it, needing to be created and shared with the world. It's life or death, it really is. Like you are living to get this thing done. And until it is done, you haven't fully lived. It sounds maybe high -falutin, but it really is. In an urge, you have to get done.

1:52:07You have to complete. And I think about a lot of artists too. Maybe afraid of what this art means in the world. Therefore, they're afraid of art. Is this thing going to be good? Is this going to be bad? I think about that a lot because all you're doing is just nothing's being made. If you're thinking about all that, nothing's going to be done. You're just not being yourself if you're afraid. It's also not unusual to put something out. Thinking little of it. And it connecting in a way that you would never believe. And sometimes the thing that you're most precious about might not. We don't know.

1:52:39We don't know. But if you've seen so many artists, that probably all started like that. But they get to a point where the expectations wait out on them. Where people expect a certain type of output. I mean, my entire career is based on things that start small and go big. What was CDCA? CDCA was this music group. That I had for two years. I received a music grant to create. This was just over 100 conservatory train musicians that I had access to to be able to try really crazy experiments. For years, I had this idea what if we took every song that had lyrics that aren't lyrics. Think about that.

1:53:22Du -wa -didi -didi -dum -didi -didi -doo. Shan -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na -na. So I took 45 of those bits and I imagine musicians doing that in a one -take, medley, with instruments and a singer. So John Batis, who I just met on that cruise, he plays the piano, Mike Thurber, who became a partner in the venture, was playing bass, Jane Louis, this girl I found on the internet, saying it, Matt McCorkle is there doing the audio engineering, he became a partner. And we just had this thing where we're all just messing around in the studio. And just like sopranos and just like 73 questions, the video just gets a million views.

1:53:59Wow. I think for these musicians who spent their whole lives in practice rooms, gigging, they look at that, they're like, what Blackmagic is this? What is this idea? We thought this was goofy. But for me, it's like, oh yeah, this is another concept that tends to carry itself on the internet, in a way that a lot of people share. So we created a whole channel on types of one -take music video experiments like that, where these musicians could demonstrate their skills. A lot of it was classical at Jason, but we weren't shoving classical down people's throats. If they didn't like classical, they were at least exposed to elements that were very classical and form.

1:54:31And yeah, it's just probably one of the most fruitful creative endeavors of my life is making 35 videos, getting an audience of 300 ,000 subscribers and being Google's house band, playing YouTube music awards, right after Arcade Fire, right before Lady Gaga, CDZA has its own set. I got to work with Spike Jones, my hero. I look back and it's just like, how did that happen? How did that unfold? In a way that it did and I'm really grateful for it. Who are the video artists that inspired you to make things besides the ones you mentioned who remix the trailers? I mean, I mentioned Spike Jones. He's probably the biggest creative influence on me for sure.

1:55:08What he did with certain one -take videos and what he did with this kind of like levity, this playfulness, this whole existence, this playfulness and conceptual ideas, concepts that feel like they really haven't been done before. That was imbued inside of me at a very young age where I strove to say, this idea needs to be something I've never seen before. And Spike is probably the number one influence for me on that. How do you see YouTube's place in the world? Not going away. It's the second biggest search engine in the world. People put up their entire lives there. People put up their entire agendas there.

1:55:46Every war's long video, so it's a lot of minutes of watching. It's not like TikTok and Instagram. People sit back and they just let it go for hours and hours. So people debate whether it's good or bad. It's probably both, but it's not going anywhere. How do you think of YouTube versus Netflix or HBO or Apple TV? Unfiltered without notes. It just makes something put it out there. You know, the rest has this filtration. You could fill the notes. You could fill the development executives. You can feel the rules of engagement. Your voice has been in many of your videos. Have you physically been in many of the videos?

1:56:32Not really. Don't have much of an interest in that. Don't have much of an interest in my own channel or my own audience. I know now that the Roger Doc is there. I was talking to an agency and I remember these agents got on and they're like, all right, so we're talking about getting a rep to your arm. This is what we can do for you. Get you a podcast, get an audience. Get a bigger following around you. I'm like, I could not be any less interested in that. If anything, me going to my next career is more about being connected to other artists. You know, being connected to you was such a great thing for my creativity.

1:57:11If anything, I want more of that. I'm not looking to get my own audience out of this. I'm very much behind the scenes. You know, I just want good conversations that can maybe turn into collaborative pursuits. That's really where I'm at right now.