John Sinclair

29:28Oh, man. So I didn't want nothing to do with that. Just I read all of the things about all my heroes. Like Charlie Parker, that were dope fans. And it was always a bad thing. It was never a case of me. I had some dope and went on. I created musical history and they never put it that way. They shoot some dope and then they go to the penitentiary. What do you believe now that you didn't believe when you were young? Well, you kind of told me you were going to be by young. Everything I believe now I learned non -peoity. I've stuck with everything I learned non -peoity since 63 years I've been the same way.

30:14Amazing. My beliefs are consistent. You're tasting reading the same. Would you read the same kind of books today that you read then? I read anything today. I'm semi crippled. My legs are fucked up. So I don't really go anywhere except to the doctor if I have a pain in the game. So I just sit and read to run my radio station and write something with someone. My radio station takes up quite a bit of time because I'd prepare 60 to 62 programs. I'm so reminiscence. It's amazing that from your youngest age of childhood, music on the radio is what carried you and it continues to carry you. It's like it's really done.

31:03Yeah, it was such a beautiful thing when I was a kid that never got away from it. You know? Yeah. It brought me away. There wasn't a hip person in my old town. If you want to flant ten miles away, you need to meet people, not that many. When I was in college and point, there was maybe 20 of us that were up. When you went to the University of Michigan those days, there were maybe 20 people out of 40 ,000 students. Wow. That's the most square. They made fun of us. They pointed at you. They pointed at the women for not having a buzzer. Nobody had long hair. Everybody shaved. Every day, you know, I read the papers every day.

31:52I've been doing that since I was seven. And every day you see these people that are running things. No, they all got beards. They're black. They're female. This is totally different from the way I came up when it was our white man. So it's all good. You know, we're in a transition period, I think. Is Michael Moore also from Flint? From Davidine, what's in school I did. My mom was his eighth grade English teacher. Incredible. Have you ever got to meet him? Oh, yeah, I know, my student. Good people.

32:27I read somewhere that the MC5 ended to show with a mock assassination. Is that true? Yeah. The first time the cream came to America in October of 1967. We opened for them at the Grand League. They humiliated us. They made a set up our equipment around the drums of Ginger Baker. We thought they were the most awful way with mother fuckers in all of history. So they came back in June and I begged to ask him to let us open for them again. So we got the gig. We spent two months rehearsing, trying to get ready to blow them away. We wanted to destroy the cream. We wanted to make it so they'd never come back to Detroit ever again.

33:15It was going to end with an assassination.

33:21But by the time that point came in the show, it was 105 degrees in the Grand League. It was packed to the wall through the cream when they were huge. We just went on and played the best set you could possibly imagine a band to play. And by the time we did Black to come, it was just in total pandemonium, which was just totally nuts. You know, the best possible way. And then the assassination was supposed to come on, but it was still an anti -climatic. Nobody even told me that. We had a plan now. Our voting was going to raise the stage with a flag and assassinate the lead singer. Amazing. How could you go on after that?

34:11Fuck you, dream. Come on after this. Now your mother fucker. Make a cell up around your drums. Kiss my ass. There were few more off -putting and ugly persons than English wroteies. If you'll remember. Yeah. There were horrible people. What was the White Panther Party? White Panther Party was strands of energy, morphing into an overly political movement. Based on the Black Panther Party, it meant to support the Black Panther Party, who were our heroes. We got the Black Panther Party with the Vanguard of the Revolution in the whole world. Not just US. Because there were a Black organization that was not racist.

35:03They dealt with you like human beings and stood it like some white devils. There were real Marxist slums. So we aspired to this. So we followed them. We read the paper every week. And one time, in 68, in the fall of 68, I'm commanding one of our people was in jail and Trevor City, Michigan, for a minute or so. You read an interview with you if you knew. I think it was in the Guardian. And then you have to do what white people should do. They want to support the Black Panther Party. And they said, well, you can't really join our organization because we got this covered. You had to form a white Panther Party and do something with these white people.

35:49They're the problem. And so part of the red doesn't tell you, yeah, that should be us. So when you got home, I took a couple of months to convince me, because I hated politics, except for Malcolm X and Philadelphia. And he said, no, I didn't. I said, for the Black Liberation, still going, one of those two king and all of that. But I didn't believe in any of that. I believed in Malcolm X. I thought he was the greatest American of all time. And Jimmy Newton was right behind him after he got killed. That's what I thought. Did you ever get to see Malcolm X live? Three times. Wow, tell me about that.

36:32I'm extremely excited. Of course, you're a Muslim event. So as a white person, you had to sit in a segregated area and see. I'll never forget that part of it. And there weren't very many of it. There either. Most like people hated black people at the time. The number ones that didn't hate could be summarizing the membership of FDS. They were racist Americans, but they were trying to be better. But those were on acid. We had driven races in the middle of our lives. Obviously, for... Did you guys actually know the Black Panthers and were friends with them? We idolized and worshiped them. I see. But from a distance, because they were based on the West Coast?

37:20Well, yeah, pretty much. We became close to the Panthers in Detroit. But they were not a very effective chapter. I was in jail with a couple of those guys. So until we became tight. I read that the White Panther Party became the Rainbow People Party. Well, right, right, right. Well, to be connected with the Black Panther Party, the first thing you had to do was accept arms struggle. And you had to arm yourself. And you had to learn how to shoot. We were happy. You know, we tried doing this. We adopted this. But it wasn't a posture that went very far with hippies. It was my little trouble. They wanted to get high and flunk and hear some good music.

38:12And not go on the war. If you wanted to say four things about hippies, there they are, not chill.

38:22So, the one farther away went, and of course I was in prison. So part of it was trying to get me out of prison. And our other people were under attack. So we just CIA conspiracy, what have you? So we thought, this really isn't doing us a world of good. To be grandishing a bunch of guns. And plus if they came after us, they would annihilate us. There's nothing that 20 of us could do with guns against the fucking system, you know? So we thought it would be best to change our focus from the self -defense Black Panther Party thing to something that reflected what we thought and believed. And we're fighting for which was a world of rainbowism, which need I explain.

39:08All the different kinds of people getting together without changing their color or their cultures, you know? And again, I went there to bring to that. I wanted to call the Woodstock People's Party because everybody knew what Woodstock stood for. That was the turning point in our culture, really. I read somewhere that the White Panther Party was never bothered by the authorities. But once the rainbow people came, that was dangerous to the powers that be because it promoted unity instead of hitting people against each other. I don't know if that's true. They didn't like you, they didn't want. They just didn't like us.

39:53We didn't fit. And we were leading their people astray, their young people. So they ate in the parts of the world. Not so much we were defying them and they're all culture. But they were leading their young people. There are sums and daughters away from the straight and narrow. Soon their daughter didn't have a brazilian influence walking everything inside. We didn't like that. Do you remember what the original ten -point program was? Pretty much, I couldn't recite it. We adapted it from the White Panther Party towing in our own little changes. They grabbed into all the dope and fucking in the streets.

40:35That was so slogan. It later became bolderized to sex drugs and rock and roll. But when it started, it was rock and roll. Dope and fucking in the streets. Catchy. Rick, I know you like that one. Did the MC5 all live together? Did you guys live in a big house? Was there a commune? Yeah, that was our time set. You'd be in vlog 24 hours a day with each other. You would never have to wonder about where somebody was coming from. You knew where everybody was, what they were doing. And also, of course, the economic factor. If you had eight people that rented a house, there was a company, bill and eight parts.

41:20You could do it, you could look and do your things, which were without reward. Rock and roll was without reward at that time. Understood. There was no way you were going to get any money for this because it was outside the main street. It's not what they were looking for. Like they were bewildered and be followed by this. Was your guys commune the only one like that in the Ann Arbor area or were there other groups of young people living together like minded? Other groups, yeah. Everyone had their own distinct identity, depending on who the people were. But basically, as an economic unit, it was unbeatable, very happy to live in a commune.

42:06And now we took it to another level when we got more political and we revolutionized the commune way of life so that everyone was equal, so that everyone shared in cooking, cleaning, and childcare. This was mandated by the Central Committee. You had a schedule for every member of the hours that you had to spend on the front desk, answering the phone, taking care of kids, cooking in certain days a week, you know. It was very sophisticated when you think about it. When you look at that period of the main thing you think of is the oppression of the women. What do you think of that movement? That's what the women all say.

42:53I will press that work. Well, I haven't even got the boss, because they could have done whatever they wanted. But in our group, the women were encouraged to take leadership roles. My wife and I, before any of this we had to detroit our workshop, we published little Mimigrap books. And I typed the stencils she ran the machine. So that was a reversal at the basic level. That was what we were looking for. We used to make our beliefs into reality. The commune was a basic manifestation of our beliefs, ground level. If you lived in a commune, you were on the right path. Did you learn about it from anyone?

43:42Or did you guys just make it up? Well, you had down the road, you know. Everything comes from on the road, bro. Jack Kerrowack, the greatest American. One of the greatest to the 20th century, Alan Ginsburg, Charlie Parker, Campbell, trained. They were the pinnacles. So their ideas influenced and illuminated our lives. Not just their art, but their ideas. That's when we got weed from Kerrowack. The idea we won't just want to weed. You just couldn't find any white people. And no. Only jazz musicians and poets. Regular white people never knew where to be. It was in our attic to them. It was dope.

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46:12You said earlier that when bands would play at the grandi, it wouldn't be covered in the newspapers. If that was the case where everything in the underground was hard to come by, being where you guys were, how would you get information from what was going on in New York or what was going on in San Francisco? We had just in the club the underground press. They completely wiped out everything about our period. They wiped out hippies, they wiped out the underground press. The black man to party as a cartoon movie would go to Africa. They wiped it all out because they don't want it to happen again so they don't teach about it.

46:56When I was growing up they didn't say anything about the labor movement. I grew up in Flint, Michigan where they started the labor, where they had to sit in against the billet. Generally, they didn't ever tell you anything. I didn't know anything about the union. My dad worked for billet in the office. So he was in the union man. So that's what they did with us. They wiped us out. One of my great influences was the guy named Rox Scully. He was the manager of the Great Pull Dead. I got to know the Great Pull Dead from going out there and then they came from Detroit from 67. We on our everyday for a week.

47:39That's what influenced me to become manager of the MC5 because I saw the Rox Scully and Danny Rifkin the manager of the Great Pull Dead. They were more far out than me. They were total dope fans. And yet they were managers, bandwriters, and Warner Brothers. They were doing an national tour. You know what the MC5 knew and what some agent took their business for. I knew how to take care of business. And so I just kind of outsmost into their management. But Rox Scully. And then in the later years I got to know him again. And one day we were hanging on in. And I don't know how we got on talking about this but he was saying they wanted to make a movie about the Dead story.

48:29And he said, but they gave us the treatment. But they took all the drugs out. The drug issue was covered by some roti smoking a big doobie. That was it. Missed the whole point. Jerry Garcia would make a move without a mirror. I don't know if you ever read Rox Scully's book with the great book Living with the Dead. No, I'll read it. I'll leave you all that. But it starts out because you know how you set the tone with the first chapter. He starts out by describing a trip to Germany. And he described how his job as a manager. His first job was to make sure everybody had their dope. Dangerous job.

49:16There's a true story here. Wow. Well, Underground Plus had millions of readers. There was an underground paper in every city of any magnitude whatsoever. There was at least 50 of them, maybe 100. So I was involved with this from the beginning. You know, my pal Bob Rudnik was the coordinator of the Underground Press. Before Tompers said, then Tompers have built it into a huge mob by Bill. And then became multiplied smuggling tons of five certain items. High times it goes right out of the Underground Press. Because I'm not. But everything went from 100 papers covering everything in these different communities to one magazine covering marijuana.

50:12That's how that's shown, you know, they said there was five million readers of the Underground Press. The Underground Press Syndicate, which Rudnik was supporting it up. And the idea of Underground Press Syndicate is that if you joined, if you print material from any other paper without getting permission or paying for it. Of course, the Underground Press didn't get paid. If you worked on the staff, but not the paper, maybe you got $25 a week. If you wrote, I never got a penny for all the millions of words I wrote. Well, that wasn't about the money. No, and it was all the information was passed between all of these little independent papers all over the country.

50:58You know, words, chameone, eyewitness account. Wow. So we're outside of the news. Amazing. Amazing. And then if you look back at them, they had a tremendous influence on the daily paper. Our little paper in Detroit, designed and influenced the daily papers to an incredible degree. You can look at them before and after and see the paper we had up. Because we made the papers in the works of art. The San Francisco Oracle was a pinnacle of this. But every paper had its own artists, its own logo, its own typepaces. So that was a ship that was going on in the community underground. Would you say it was like the Internet before the Internet in a way?

51:49Well, it was much more pointed. Internet is wide open. Anything can happen on the Internet. I mean, it isn't limited to underground issues. Underground press, we dealt with the war, women's rights, gay rights, capitalism, strikes, anything against the government. Anything that you see any parallels today in the way people feel towards the government versus the 60s? Yeah, yeah, the Republican state government. Was that always the case? The Republicans were the government. So what changed? They did. They became more venal, more greedy. They've got to the point where ideology doesn't mean anything.

52:40Winning means everything. Getting their way means everything. This is the most incredible change to me in my lifetime. The Republican Party gets against the FBI. And they used to be the FBI, you're saying. They were the FBI. There was a Republican Party to the CIA, the FBI. They were one group. Could you imagine the Republican Party being against the FBI? So do you feel like the sides switched? What happened? Well, they started losing. We started having more. It's all played out in the paper every day, you know. Our ideas started to overpower their ideas. And so now they're using their power to overpower our ideas.

53:28But you know, it's a culture war, it's like they say. Why was the first MC5 album alive album? Well, we were alive group. I wanted to make the point that this is what they did. See, the MC5 was most exciting. I've been a long time in my opinion. I never seen nothing in the hood of nothing like that. When they got done with it, the place was destroyed. And they were tired to develop. Rob Penner was a genius. And he was a performing genius and the energy. Understanding of the stage and everything about performing. So by the time it was over, the audience was destroyed. They were laying on the ground, the head spinning, you know.

54:19I wanted to get the cross. We had a live album coming on, a lecture record. And I wanted to be a live album. Nobody ever could be a live album. I was going to say I'd never heard a debut live album before, so it really felt revolutionary. I'm like today where I talk about doing what everybody else does. I want to make you want to better and have an bigger promotion budget. Did you meet Danny Fields? Do you remember any of the people from Electra? Danny Fields, sure, he's one of my best friends. Oh great. How did you come to meet him? Well, Bob Rudnick and Dennis Frauley have a calm in the east village, other newspaper, the Weaning Underground Paper in the country.

55:04You could say it was called Colquay and Karma. Back before anybody ever heard of Colquay, it's in the 60s. They got a radio show called Colquay and Karma on a radio station called WFMU. The East Orange, New Jersey on the campus of Uppsala College. Some of them, except those college took over the college radio station. They were the first street form station. Well, because the Underground first, we got to know each other. And then the MC5, what I did with the MC5 as their manager was, I created this unending stream of propaganda. About how great they were. About how great the shows were, about the, weird attacks on us by the police.

55:55I was a columnist for the fifth of state. But I wrote these things about the MC5 and that each of us, each other, they loved what I wrote. And of course, being in New York City and being told to be in some cells. I had my hard time with deadlines. They would come up upon the deadline, I would not really have them. They would never anything of their own. So they would take something of mine and put it in these. Well, I was as good as the garden, the Underground press. You know, that I also was in the San Francisco Oracle, which was the greatest paper of all time. So I was kind of proud of that.

56:34But I got to be friends with Renek and probably through the Underground press. On the MC5, we made up for this single looking at you back to with Borderline on the A Square record. It's like bought it in our book. Of course, we had 500 copies. We'll give $500 to 500 for this session, the 500 copies. We had 500 records. Well, you couldn't really sell them. So we used to use phone numbers. They were running a flow, they loved their record. I don't know if you were looking at you. Absolutely. It was a pretty far -off record. They hadn't been any record like that with feedback and shit. Well, they liked your record, so they played it.

57:19So when I go to New York, they have me come on the radio station and talk about the MC5 and play the record. Well, the show before them was by Danny Fields. Danny Fields and Renek and probably would bullshit have to change over. So that's how I got to know Danny Fields. And he liked the MC5. Then he burned to Detroit to see the MC5. And we had the Stooges opening for us. So he signed us and we signed the Stooges on the same night. Wow. They called New York and said, I wanted to give the MC5, I wanted to give them $25 ,000. And we can get to Southern Bend, the Stooges, we can get them to provide.

58:07And so they signed both of those. So that, and then Danny Fields was a staff member at Electro. He was the guy who told him that like my player would be a single. Hopefully he's turned it off the album. That was the turning point in Electro Records. That was when they made some money. They were making a little money out of Judy Collins, but not very much. They were a folk music label. And then they had at the same level on 67 because of Danny Fields. So he was revered. And they took his advice. I tell you, I got to MC5 and the Stooges and David Peele. He signed that out of something to me, especially proud of.

58:55Did you ever meet Jack Holtzman? Sure. He was the president of Record label. I was a manager of the New Sign Band. He was a lying rotten motherfucker. And I may say so. Jack, fuck you. Jack was the one who tried me and he put a motherfucker on the album. And then took the album off the market. When they got the reaction that I told him they were going to get, you see. So Danny, I'm going to like this. It's our bullshit. We got to do this is important. It was so important that when the storage was used to stack the records, he pulled it off the air. It was at 90 with a bullet, an opening album.

59:40You know, the record business. Our first week was 90 with a bullet. So we were borrowing up the fucking charts. We pulled it off the market, censored it. Well, the censoring killed the MC fight because. I was in your bunch of punks. You weren't the authority fighters who were projecting yourself to be or being punked by the record company. Then they fired me. So I first got him over to Atlantic and Jerry Wetcher was signed and became transfer tray lecture. One of my lifetime heroes. Great. Amazing. Out of all of the Atlantic records when I was a kid, there were no better records. I'm planning to do it today and play the mama record chill last week.

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1:01:50Did Jerry Wexler ever tell you any of the stories of those records? No, I wasn't in the stards, really. We were talking about how could we sell the MC5? And he had the goofy idea of signing John Landau to produce them. And that was what ruined MC5. Bruce Springsteen, John Landau, that John Landau. Now, I got the poor Bruce Springsteen. We were a stepping stone. He tried to make it into the sound like Bruce Springsteen, which is really a bad idea. I don't know if you know their second album. They on stage albums sound like the first album. And the one in the middle sound like the monkeys. One John Landau produced.

1:02:43He told the bass player he couldn't play. For example, he made the drummer go straight ahead where he was actually an album's own influence. Dracking was on the drummer. John Landau told me I just stick to Booker T and the MG's L -ject. So anyway, terrible. That's what they played. When did you see the crossover from the short hairs to the hippie culture take over in the mainstream? What stood was the turning point. Because before that, you see, we started out small. And then they tried to keep us small. The mainstream capitalized and the fact that we were underground. It's a tiny phenomenon. It's going to go away.

1:03:33All this long -year shit is bullshit. You know, for the sooner, everybody's going to be back to suits and ties. And they were wrong. The more stuff came, I always said there's half a million people in the rain. Just see Jimmy Hendrix. And John Bias. That was totally outside the rhetoric of what was supposed to be happening. So this was all of a sudden they realized just 500 ,000 people were going to sit there in the rain. And I found, and I would state New York, it must really be huge. That was 69 by 72. They had taken it all over. And they had ruined everything. The underground ABC network put out eight underground stations under their agents.

1:04:28And they were huge. So they wiped out the smaller stations that they have developed this concept. And then they developed what has ruined the record company ever since is the consultants. You know, when you were coming up with music, the people in the music business love music. Whatever they hear about New Bimskies and the guys like that who were Creepholes, you know. But they were cigar -champing businessmen, you know. But most of them, on the ground level, it was all music lovers. It just jackies were music lovers. The people that worked for the record companies, the promotion man, they were music lovers.

1:05:13They knew the difference between one song and another, one band. This is the big difference that you can imagine. Because they love music. And that's why they ran it. And after what's out there in it because they thought 500 ,000 people in the rain, we can get reaching their pockets and get $10 a piece. That's five million. So that's what they did. And then they got where they could just buy off the music. If you went along with the program, they give you a million dollars. If you didn't, they wouldn't give you a record contract. That started in 72. It's just getting worse every year for 50 years now.

1:05:57So you have what you have today, which is total awareness. That's why I do my radio show, my other station. I want to create a reminder, you know, an artifact of this period, the way it used to be when you listen to the radio. I was on W -A -W -O -Z in the one -on -ones for 12 years. For 12 years in my house, the radio station never went off. And they never changed stations because they played all the good stuff. Well, that's what I'm trying to do with my generous preserve a little bit of that for the future, you know. It sounds like a dream. I can't wait to listen. Oh, yeah, I put on the 24 -7 stream.

1:06:43It's like listening to a radio station. What's your take on free speech? Means everything. What do you mean? I'm a loving example of free speech.

1:06:57What was it like living in Amsterdam? You lived there for a while, right? Well, I spent 15 years going there for half a year ago. Now, what was it there? Trying to change it now, they say. I don't like the red light district and the parks smoking anymore. They got a government that wants to be like the U .S. They have 20 million tourists, but they want to get rid of 10 million of them. You know, they're just totally nuts to white people. But this place has been like that for 500 years. That's a part I like to buy. Life is different. Nobody's armed. You know, the first time I went there about the third day, I realized that my shoulders were staying just about down because I wasn't terrified of getting shot.

1:07:48Like I am here, you know? Yeah. Nobody's armed. You could go in a place and buy some weed and sit and smoke it with your friends. Without having to buy a drink. That was a beautiful thing. We just brought everything to the forefront that you think is important about life. And you never buy it by the police. 15 years I never had a conversation with a police officer. So it was my idea of civilisation. I'd be there now except I'm crippled. So I was going to go there in 2020 and I got to the airport. I didn't feel so good. So I went home and the next day I had a heart attack. So I'm going to think long and hard about going back again.

1:08:35Yeah. You seem very strong. I am except for my legs and not working. Tell me about being wiretapped by the government. Well, it was just a way of life. You knew they were doing it all the time. Well, you know, that was what our case against the CIA bombing. And in our case, they under discovery they wanted to know how many information on the defendants was obtained by wiretaps. And they said, yes, but we can't tell you what it was because it was a case of national security. We turned out to be a cap on the black pants apart. Pumplemon and distributed 900 copies of the black cancer paper and in an hour every week.

1:09:24So he was on the phone to them. They were taping them. So the government says we can't tell you anything about this because it's national security. And it turned out that William Rancwess to work for John in Mitchell and Nixon. The justice deput is still called justice department. So we're reviled by the Republicans today. But Rancwess to develop this concept of warrant was national security wiretapped. We didn't need a warrant of national security. So we challenged this and our judge judge, Damon Keep, from the Eastern District of Michigan, Gordon Detroit, federal court agreed with us that this was wrong.

1:10:15But they couldn't know what no such thing in America as a warrant looks wiretapped. They had to be by the Constitution. We could have worn it. So they appealed the judges ruling the government down. Very, very extraordinary action to take. But they appealed it. And we went up to Supreme Court and we won eight to nothing in Supreme Court. Wow. The ninth vote was Judge Rancwess to have been appointed to the Supreme Court. He had to recuse himself because he had developed this unconstitutional policy. Wow. Amazing. Yeah, they talked about the Supreme Court today, but then that William Wink was Chief Justice.

1:11:00He was on the biggest crooks of all time. He was Nixon's Factor, man. You've had the most incredible life. I mean, he really experienced a lot of crazy stuff. As you know, that's the way we do this. Absolutely. You want to do examples of the good things that come of good. If you allow me to say so. I appreciate it. Thank you. What wisdom can you share from your life's experience that would be helpful for me to hear? You're almost Bob Dillon. You just do what you want to do. You don't do anything you don't want to do. You do exactly what you want to do. I have my Bob Dillon, more than anybody in public life because he's made up.

1:11:49He's my age. He's 82 years old. He just does what he wants. He's still out there to learn because that's what he wants to do. You don't want to sit home and roll around in his barrels of money. He doesn't care about the money. He doesn't have money where he doesn't have to worry about it, and he ever again. So I asked what important to me. What do you got money or not? It doesn't matter. You got to do what you want to do. He's going to the arts like I did. You got to understand that I did from read Jack Kerouette. That you weren't going to get paid. That it was going to be a struggle. That the police were going to be after you.

1:12:31All of these things were clear. But I still I wanted to do this shit and I did it. So you got what you signed up for? The amount. Amen. I never expected to make 65. So I never thought I'd be able to retire like I have.

1:13:10You got to understand that I did. You got to understand that I did. You got to understand that I did. You got to understand that I did. You got to understand that I did. You got to understand that I did.