Judd Apatow

27:19So you think that's like when the Beatles came along and all the music before the Beatles felt like old and now there's this new. Seriously, it's like a new wave of comedy hit. And I don't know how the comedians, like the, whatever the previous wave of the biggest comedians, the Bob Hoops of the world seemed obsolete, no? Certainly some of them were just in a different space. And then there were people like Alan King who were so funny and Dangerfield. There were people that were still great. And occasionally you would see someone like I remember seeing any young men at this Toronto comedy festival.

27:56And it's all cutting edge, new people like Myers went on before SNL. And Carlin was at that festival. But then any young one tore the house down. And there was something fun about it. But definitely when people like Richard Jenny started hitting and you know, the beginning of a Belzer, who we just lost, you know, who inspired everybody. I mean, if you look at modern comedy, everyone's still talking like Richard Belzer. Yeah. That it was completely different. And then I think it happened again with this ear of comedians. I think of Belzer and Richard Lewis for some reason in the same breath. I don't know if they came up at the same time, but it felt like stylistically they were cut from the same cloth.

28:38Yeah, there was Robert Klein. Yeah. And then I think it turned into Richard Lewis and Belzer. And it was all very exciting. I think it's really exciting now to see what people are doing. People have podcasts. They're very close with their audiences. There's an intimate relationship. I mean, when I was a kid, I would interview comedians. When I was about 16, I would go interview comedians from my high school radio station. Just because I wanted to get information from them, I wanted to be able to ask them questions. It was really just for me. But I think that's because podcasts didn't exist. Like in my own head, I was trying to create the space where I would do the work.

29:13I would hear that kind of conversation, even if it was just with me, to sit with Leno for an hour and a half and go, how do you do it? And where did you come from? But now the audience is having a completely different relationship because they might listen to these people every week or every day. And then when they see them in person, it's like their friend. And in those days, you could only see comedy really on the tonight show. Like it was hard to see comedy. Yeah. It was hard to see comedy on television for sure. It was hard. Yeah, it started with evening of the improv. Suddenly that appeared.

29:49And I thought, oh, there's a whole world of this. Because I remember there was only like two or three clubs in the country. And then maybe there was 50 for a while. Then it became like 150 and the whole thing blew up. I totally remember that when I was in high school and I wanted to be a comedian, one of the reasons why I had confidence was I thought there was only 100 comedians in the country. Yeah. And I really thought, oh, I could be one of those hundred. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there's not enough. They meet you. Exactly. I just thought, you know, I've seen these people. And I was from Long Island.

30:17A lot of the comedians like Paul Reiser and Seinfeld. They were from Long Island. I thought, I'm kind of like them. And so it didn't, it also was something that no one was interested in. And my high school, no one wants to be a comedian. No one even cared about comedy. So it wasn't like there was improv groups in my high school or college. No one cared at all. So I thought, oh, I can slice off this little space for myself. And then I moved to LA and suddenly I met all the other comedians. And they were all just like me. It was like every person like me moved to the same city. And then that was so fun.

30:49Like, oh, like finding friends who all had the same record collection. So cool. Did you ever meet Andy Kaufman? I never met Andy Kaufman, but I worked for Bob Zimuda, who worked with Andy. Wow. And I wrote a lot of that material with Andy. Because my first job was working for Comic Relief. So I was 19 years old or I was 18. And I called them up and I said, I'll work for you for free. And so they're doing like the live aid of comedy. And then I got to know Zimuda, who told me all the stories about Kaufman. And what's he forthcoming? Yeah. Great. Love to talk about it. Great. And even that made it real to me because I, to me, Andy Kaufman, you know, was like the Beatles.

31:31So to meet some of that new Andy Kaufman, it was part of that creativity. I think all those moments make you go, oh, so this is a job. Like they're just people. And they're creative. And I guess I could maybe do that. Like when you're home, it feels so magical. Yes. But when you see it, when you talk to people, you're like, no, it's just a guy in a room. That's what I feel about get back. I feel like people watch get back and go, it's just four dudes in a room trying to come up with something. Yeah. And I feel like it inspires people because it's the room that the Beatles are in is pretty much the same as the room that the sign felt, sign felt writers were in or the Simpsons writers.

32:11It's just a bunch of people in a room trying to collectively support each other, be open to ideas and any band's experience is the same as the Beatles. It's just what did you come up with in that room?

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33:44And with Andy as popular as he got, he always seemed far outside of the mainstream. He never seemed commercial. You know, he was popular. Yeah. But he was never regular. In any way, he was always Andy, completely different than everybody else. Always odd, always confrontational. That's what made it so great. It was always troubling on some level. I mean, I helped Jim Carrey when he was working on Man in the Moon. So he was doing research and we went back east and we had dinner with Andy's brother Michael. And his father, he visited his grave and his high school and his family home. And I realized, oh, he went to high school in mid to late 60s.

34:38It's very influenced by the ideas that were happening at that time, living theater, psychedelics. Which when I watched him, I never thought a guy who took a lot of acid thought of this stuff. Because I don't think he looked at it like he even was a comedian. He looked at it like it was art or it was some sort of performance art. And he wasn't interested in what the rest of us are interested in. It's like a certain rhythm of getting a certain amount of laughs over the course of an hour. He was trying to provoke people into all sorts of different emotions. And I just think most people don't work that way at all.

35:18That's why I love when you see something like when standup goes outside of itself a little bit and there's drama. Like some people make fun of that like, oh, why are the comedians trying to be serious? But when somebody switches it up and talks about something real and drops the comedy for a moment. And then finds a way to get back to it. I think that's so interesting and should be encouraged. You don't have to be danger -filled and go wall to wall the whole time. Or there's also the Tony Clipton approach of just like ending up being funny based on how not funny it is. Just the legurance of it ends up being funny.

35:54Well, I mean, the one that makes me laugh is that he was on the Merv Griffin show. And it's not even Andy. It's Bob Zimuda. Like he didn't even do it. Like every once in a while, Bob would do it. And Bob did it. Even Bob was hilarious. I mean, to me, Bob did it funnier than Andy. And then the joke was that Merv Griffin kept talking to him like, where's Andy? Thinking he's talking to Andy like, aren't I funny saying where's Andy? And it's like a double joke like, Andy's not here. He's not lying when he says he's not. And Crandy. And Bob always just talked about wanting. It's like pranking the audience and pranking the world.

36:32So he was a fun person to be around because that's what made him laugh the most was how you trick them. Did you ever see when Andy was on the Dinosaur show? Yeah. So funny getting her to sing. I can do anything that it any can. It's so funny. And he's so drunk. I think that he used to get really drunk before he did it. Like not a little drunk like he would get. But Andy didn't drink. But Tony Clipton drank. In real life. Both. It's unbelievable. Unbelievable. What do you think it is about why Ireland that fosters so much creativity? Yeah. Isn't that weird? Were you from Long Island? I'm from Long Beach.

37:09From Long Beach. Yeah. It's funny because yeah. There's so many people from there. And I guess it's not quite the city. I mean, later there's, you know, there's a lot of weird crime. I mean, in some ways, Long Island can be like Florida. There's a lot of weird stuff happening. Out of Long Island. And I don't know. Maybe it's a little class enough that people feel like they can succeed in something like this. That they had enough support to take a risk to do something creative. Yeah. And you could take an hour long train ride into the big city. So you could get there by public transportation. I was pretty easily.

37:51I take the train to Caroline's. I had to go see Gilbert Godfrey when I was 16. Yeah. It was Gilbert. Always Gilbert from the beginning. Like, was that character? I think so. I mean, I think maybe it got wilder and wilder. But I used to go see him. And I thought it was the funniest thing I'd ever seen. Yeah. He just made me laugh. He's so funny. So funny. Yeah. Yeah, just the greatest. I mean, there are people that you like. But you don't really laugh that much. You laugh a little bit, but you just like what they're saying or you're like theirself. And then there are people that actually make you piss your pants laughing.

38:28Like people who can crack you. And Gilbert was one of the few people. Kevin Meaney was like that. Except where you were and just like, hmm, nice joke. They actually would make you fall out of your chair. I'm so curious about Gilbert. How did he come to be? And when I say be, I don't know. I don't know where the line is of where the human ends and the guy who's on stage. Is that all him or did he become that? Was it? Do you have any idea? Well, there's a great documentary called Gilbert that this friend of mine, Neil Berkeley, made. And you just see that he's this really sweet guy and he's married and has two kids.

39:12And he's like the nicest dad. And it's his sense of humor. But it's a character. He's just like a beautiful guy, a really nice guy, but finds that hilarious. Right? It's as simple as that. This is what makes him laugh is to do that. And also like the idea that the character is in so many ways is a throwback to a different time of comedy. You know, he wasn't a contemporary comedian. He was like an old time comedian, except he was young. Yeah. It was just odd. Yeah. And yet just so weird and postmodern and mocking the form and willing to go too far and paying a price for going too far. Yeah. Where he, you know, he really stood up to the world with the idea that I should be allowed to say anything that makes people laugh.

40:03And if I offend you, then you know, watch somebody else. Did you ever get to meet Jerry Lewis? I have a funny Jerry Lewis story. I'm working for the comic relief. It's the first comic relief. And Jerry Lewis is walking towards an area where a bunch of photographers are going to take his picture. And as he walks there, a few other photographers are kind of running to get in position to take a picture of Jerry. And one guy trips and falls so hard like on his cameras. Like a real wipe out. And then he jumps up. And Jerry Lewis looks at him and he goes, you're supposed to fall. Wait for the laugh.

40:41Then get up. Amazing. So I go online last year. And I just go, I wonder if there's a photo of that moment. And I go and get the images. And I just search every photo from comic relief. And I find the moment where he literally has like a finger pointing. And I'm like, that's the moment. But that's him making the joke. I'm believe it. I remember seeing, I can't remember where it was and I've not been able to find it since. But I came across a Jerry Lewis interview a long time ago, like on Channel 13, back in pre -Cable Days. And it was a serious Jerry Lewis interview, which were the funniest ones.

41:24The filmmaker. Yeah. Dead serious, arrogant, serious Jerry Lewis. And it was long and really heavy. And I don't know why it's there. There's an amazing book about Jerry Lewis called King of Comedy. And I think the guy who wrote his name is Sean Levy. Sean Levy. And what happened is he started doing a book with Jerry's permission. And then he started asking some questions about the telephone and criticism of certain aspects of the telephone. But not thinking he was going to get into a fight with Jerry Lewis, just as part of asking him about things in his life. Jerry Lewis gets furious, says he wants to be a part of the book in a very, I guess, cruel way.

42:07And then he just says, I'm going to write the book anyway and writes the most hysterical, dark book of what Jerry Lewis is actually like, which is just a nightmare. And it is one of the most fun reads. Jerry's unbelievable. I think serious Jerry is the funniest of all the Jerry's. Yeah, because it's like someone who is so out of tune. And I feel like there are people like that. Donald Trump is like that. Cosby's like that where something's not there. Something in their humanity is clogged or non -existent or they have blind spots. And their ego has just exploded. And there's still a mix of good and bad.

42:58I mean, Jerry Lewis obviously helped a lot of people with the telephone, but also... And he made the funniest movie as you know in our childhood. Yes. He probably made us laugh more than anybody. Yeah, and we all copied him. And it's such a mix of person. And he's such an extreme version of that. Cos you just think, does he not know how ridiculous he sounds, how arrogant and crazy. And there is a way to talk about the craft. That isn't... Like that where you're just so condescending and so arrogant. But why is it... Why is arrogance and being condescending so funny? It is so funny. I think because for the same reason why Jerry Shanling thought Larry Sanders was funny, just the human foie gras of trying to present yourself as important in having your shit together and worth listening to, that there's something so ridiculous about that need to present yourself as together.

43:56That's... I think why people laugh and trump so much. Because separate from the politics, you know, he's the guy that brags about taking the test. That shows how strong, unstable he is mentally, but says, you know, the chair and the ass of the thing. You know, like, and in his head, you think he's really smart and doesn't have mental problems. But everything he just did is that he does have some sort of mental problems. What was it? Chair, table, woman, what's the list? Yeah, do you remember? And it's just so wild, it's so crazy. And it's scary because he's in a position of power. But I remember Shanling told me, and it's in the documentary that he did, he did like Regis and Kathie Lee with Trump.

44:47So Regis isn't there, Trump's feeling it. And this is a long time before he ran for president, eight years, ten years. And he said he wrote it as journal, like that looking in his eyes was like looking in a black hole. There was something missing there. And he said that he made a joke as Trump owned or owns this universe pageant. And Gary said something like, I mean, you say miss universe, but like, do we really know how about the contestants from Jupiter? Like, are we sure that we beat Mars or with some kind of silly joke like that? But he said that Trump looked at him and said, no, these are the, these are the best women in the universe.

45:32And he didn't understand the joke. And anyway, but Gary said that it scared him that there was something about it that he found terrifying. Wow. Like just looking in his eyes. That's wild. Tell me about the, because you got to work in comedy clubs. What's the culture of the comedy club like? Like, what's the, how does a comedy club work? What's the psychology of it? Yeah. What's it, what's it like for the people who were not the, that the public who comes, but for everyone else. Tell me about the psychology of the comedy club. Well, they're different spaces. In the beginning, you're going to an open mic night, which is a beautiful thing because it's just, anyway, you can go on stage, just put your name in and whatever 10, 20 people couldn't do four minutes, five minutes.

46:23I used to always drive to open mic nights that no one went to because it made me, they'd give you seven or eight minutes if you drove to Montclair or something. And most people are terrible. And we'll never, and some people like crazy, like bad, but also crazy. And then there's always like a few people and you go, they're going to get good. Wow. They're going to get good. They, they have five minutes and maybe they're telling 15 jokes and three of them are good, like really good. And you meet people and you're kind of bad, but you meet someone and you think they're kind of where I'm at. And you become friends.

47:02I mean, I started and was Andy Kendler was doing stand up and all the open mics when I was doing it. And Doug Benson was at those open mics. And then you slowly rise together. It's a beautiful thing. And then suddenly someone gives you money to host something or you become a middle. Like, is it's usually an opener, a middle and a headliner? And you drive to Bob Zaini's comedy shop at a pizza restaurant somewhere. And then you audition for Mitzi or you audition for Bud. So there's this really wonderful ladder you're climbing. And every show you get a little better or you learn something that gets you better.

47:39And so there's a real sense of growth all the time. Even when most of your shows are terrible, you do feel like I think I'm getting better. And I had a lot of patience because people said to me, it takes like seven years to find yourself. So in my head, I set the clock at seven years. So I didn't feel that bad when I was awful because I thought, well, I'm only a year and a half in. And then at some point you get accepted a club. And there's the road clubs. And that's kind of funny because like you're not that great, but you're working with a headliner who has to hang out with you all week. Like you're stuck in Dallas and Kevin Rooney or Rich Shidener or somebody who murders every night has to go to the mall with you every day and kill the day.

48:18And those become your mentors, these people you meet on the road, Larry Miller, you know, the people that taught me, you know, how to write a joke or remember Larry Miller said to me, you know, you got to sit at a desk every day and write jokes. Your job isn't like the 20 minutes at night. You got to put in a few hours sit in a chair and write your writer, you have to write your act. And he had like an hour and a half of material and I thought, yeah, he's better than almost everybody. I guess I have to like put in my time. And because most comedians are just like, you know, getting lunch and going to the movies during the day, they're not putting in massive hours of sitting in a typewriter or whatever we did back then.

48:56And then there's the world of the improv where like the best person from every city moves to LA. And so then that lineup is just all headliners, all murderers. And then you're in in that world where you hope that the people are there like whatever George Wallace and sign fell that someone will tell you. That you're okay and you deserve to be there. You know, if sign fell like I remember I brought on sign fell once and I slipped in a couple of jokes. And afterwards he just went, that was really funny. That was the first thing he said on stage. Wow. It kept me going for a year. Yeah. Because he meant it.

49:34Yeah. And I thought, okay, I got a couple of jokes that sign fell things are worthy. And now I think in the clubs, you know, you go to places like the Comedy Cellar and there's three rooms and there's tons of comics hanging out and it's a fascinating fraternity of people like a lot of great people, some kind of deranged people. I mean, you really get every type of person in that world together. Most of the time everyone laughs and gets along even people with very different opinions. There's some people that can't tolerate being around each other. But it is the most interesting people to hang out with.

50:10I love hanging out with musicians as well, but comedians, if you're in the mood for it because sometimes it's too much energy. It's too many ideas or too much pain or too much something or too much greatness. You just you don't have it in you to go into it. But when you're in the mood for it, the fact that you can go to the Comedy Store and sit in the parking lot and chat with somebody that you respect like Mark Marin. Yeah, you know, it's the reason why I got in the business. Sometimes I think I did stand up just so I could hang out with the comedians. I need the credibility for the hangout. But I always think that like I made movies just so I could go on the tonight show as a guest.

50:49It's also interesting how not all the comedians are necessarily funny when they're not on stage. Yeah, some aren't funny at all. Some are really shy. Some are weird and they just like leave the club as soon as they can. Other people love hanging out. I mean, you're really seeing every type of person in those clubs.

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52:44Did you go to midnight movies as a kid? I remember seeing Rocky or a picture show and things like that. But I have to say I love movies. I went every weekend. I would go and watch two or three movies on the weekend and I never thought I would make movies. I thought I'd be a comedian. And I'm sure as a little kid I thought like, oh I'd love to be Steve Martin. I'd love to be Bill Murray. My goal was not to be a director so when I watched movies as a kid I never paid attention to what I should have paid attention to. Cinematography and story structure and the history of cinema I just watched tons of movies as a fan.

53:20Never anything far and ever. And not even obsessed with anything great. I liked some good movies but it wasn't seeking that out. You just wanted to laugh at the people that you liked. Just want to go see fast times. Want to go see stripes. Want to go see the New Stallone movie. And then later when I started working in movies I was like, oh man I wish I paid attention. I really. I really don't understand. It's never too late. It's never too late to make up for it. Exactly. I try to make up for it. Also because you got to spend so much time when you were young with so many different comedians interviewing them.

53:53Was there a thread where you feel like there's something about all of these people that's the same or they all radically different? I'd somewhat I realized that of the people I liked at some point they became themselves in their work. So Gary, you know he did. It's an amazing special which was like, I don't know if it was like the 25th anniversary of the Gary Shanling show. Like it was a fake talk show anniversary with all the clips of the 25 years of Gary Shanling talk show which didn't exist. Incredible. And then he did it. It's Gary Shanling show which really broke open the genre. And I think you know Conan said to me, it made me realize what was possible.

54:40Yeah. Because no one had really cracked open sitcoms in that way in such a surreal way. And that inspired the people like who did the Simpsons. Like so many writers so that Gary was like, oh we can break all the rules. But then at some point he really wanted to be honest. And I think he was frustrated at its Gary Shanling show because he couldn't go as deep as he wanted within that format. And that's why he created the Larry Sanders show so that he could dig as deep as you can dig. And I think that for a lot of the great comedians whether it's just in their act or something else, there's a moment where you feel like they got to the truth.

55:20It's like Gerard Carmichael's last special. Yeah. Where you go, oh there it is. Yeah. And there's been a lot of people who do that. Panoswell said a few specials like that. And obviously Richard Pryor where they got there. Yeah. The Gerard one's incredible. And I don't even know if it's comedy anymore but it doesn't matter. It's so good. Like it's so real. Yeah. Well Hannah Gatton's be special. I mean people always say look, you don't even comedy special but when you watch it, there's like maybe like seven minutes where she pulls the turning gets very serious. The rest of it she's murdering. It's hysterical.

55:59The next special is really great too. And you see that in people's writing and in their movies where they just you know find what they're really about. Were you involved with the Sanders show from the beginning? I was friends with Gary. I was doing the Ben Stiller show, sketch show and was friends with Gary. So I was around it just as a friend, you know like looking at auditions. You remember showing me the Jeffrey Tambor audition. Yeah. You try to figure out that part and talking about meeting with Rip Torne. Incredible. Because he was. What a cast man. What a cast. Because Rip Torne was so wild that he called Albert Brooks and he's like, can you work with Rip Torne?

56:43And Albert's like, you know, it can be tough sometimes but it's worth it. Do it. So I saw him develop it. I wasn't a part of the development of it. And then I worked for it the second season onward. Was it always scripted to the last letter or was there improvisation in that show as well? What Gary did is they would table read the show Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday they would rehearse it on its feet. And Thursday and Friday they would shoot it. And they shoot it like a movie 17 pages a day. A normal movie shoots three to four pages a day. So it was so much work and moved so fast. And in the two days of rehearsal, Gary would play and let the actors play and take notes.

57:25And then they had to lock it in for the for the shoot. Although it was always, if Gary thought it's something he was going to do it. And he would never be mad at anybody. And I think that my process came from watching him and understanding that. Was it shot in front of an audience or no? Just the talk show parts. And so in a way we're like making a talk show. At the same time we're trying to do the scripted show. And that was weird because suddenly Gary would say I need monologue jokes. The whole thing I have to turn into monologue writers. Amazing. And it was an amazing experience in Gary. And lately I've been thinking a lot about the absence of Gary.

58:08Like I'm in the middle of the script. I'm writing right now. And I'm like this is the exact script I need to talk to Gary about. And I have to really tune into his voice and think I think I could predict what he would say. I would get really still. I can have that conversation with Gary. But he was such an important mentor. And also just a cheerleader of I see what you're doing. Just keep going. I like it. You know, like he was the one who introduced us. Yeah. Just called me one day and said you should know Rick. And he had like a vision and you can talk about like things lining up. He's just said I think you and Rick are going to do something together.

58:48Yeah, he always talked about you. I can't remember how I met him. Maybe through rock or maybe. I loved hanging out with him. And he was so funny and interesting. That's when you know we first met and you came to my office and you played me all this music by the Ava brothers. And so I put some music in this is 40 like the closing song. And but also I felt like Gary was encouraging something. And I just had like a feeling like Gary said this is an important relationship. And you know I took it very seriously. And then what you called me one day and you said the Ava to start recording. Maybe you should shoot something.

59:33And I called my friend Michael Bonfiglio, who followed a lot of the shooting and then playing their music to each other down south at the beginning of the process. And you know, no one was paying for it. I was paying for it because I didn't know what it would be. But kind of because of Gary I thought follow through with this. And so for years we taped. I was just writing checks. There seems to be no story because they get along so well. Yes. And Michael and I would say can you make a documentary with no story? And with people who get along well. Yeah. People who love each other. And then we were like yeah, well that's maybe that's the structure.

1:00:14That's what it is. Is the support of each other and how it turns into creativity and music and of course moments happen that afforded some drama to it. But it really felt like Gary saying go. And then when you think about it, the next thing I did was a documentary about Gary after he died. So you almost could look at it like Gary was training me to be able to process his life. It's so beautiful. So beautiful. I remember there's a scene. It's interesting seeing from me to see that movie because I'm in it in parts because it happens. It happens here, Changra. And they record this song. They perform this song that we're recording.

1:01:04And it's unbelievable. It's one of the greatest moments I've ever had in the studio. So seeing someone do something live that's just so remarkable. It's all our feelings, right? Yeah. It's just stunning. It's stunning. And it wasn't the first time they played it. And the time before it wasn't stunning. It's like something just happened. It was a magic moment. And miraculously it was caught on camera, which is again a gift. And then after, and I remember the experience of it, when it's happening, I'm feeling like, oh, I hope they can make it to the end of the song. It's scary. It's so good that it's scary because if they don't make it to the end of the song, we can never recreate it.

1:01:45It's like one or in good fellows. I'd be like, I hope it's no one screws up. It's just. Yes, it's happening. It's happening. And then when it ended, because it was so good and the energy was so good, my first instinct was to say, great, what do you want to do next? Which was, yeah, like my first instinct was not, let's celebrate. My district was we're being, we have a visitation here. This is a magic moment. Should we play something else? And I remember they said, no, we just need a break. We're going to step out of the studio and they stepped outside and then, and then I just thought, okay, they want to get some fresh air.

1:02:26But then in the film, we get to see them outside and it seemed like there was some, I don't know, I have to watch it again now. Because I feel like that what I got when I saw it in the theater was like, oh wow, they were bummed that I didn't like celebrate it more. I don't know if that's exactly what it was. Or you just observe and do nothing. Yeah. But what's fascinating about it is they step outside. Yeah. And it's a song, I guess that Seth had been writing for a decade maybe. Wow, I didn't know that. And, you know, a very important song about life and ending your life with no hard feelings and hope I learned the lessons of life.

1:03:12Yeah. And I mean, I'm sure they wrote it together. But they get outside and Scott is bothered by the idea of the fact that you open up your heart and then suddenly it turns into commerce in some way. Like people don't understand what it takes to get to this. Yes. And I talked to Scott about it because he said, as soon as it happened, I was like, oh, they're going to use that moment. And I feel bad because it's like my brother's triumph. And I kind of make it about these other issues. Wow. And I should have, I should have not started talking about that. But I love that moment. Yeah. Because no one talks about how vulnerable you are to share your deepest feelings with the world.

1:04:06And you're risking rejection, you're risking humiliation, you're trying to touch people. But you're also trying to make a living and you're hoping it connects with people so that you can sound some records and reach people enough that they want to see your shows. And so the whole idea of what is mentally taxing to all artists, this balance of going there being truthful, but I still have to make a living. And I have to dig it out and then deal with what I dug out is all in that. See, it's just a great moment. I can remember when we spoke right after the movie was done. And you were saying both in terms of reaction, people really loved it.

1:04:45And you had never had an experience like this one before. I remember you saying about it. And I remember I said because everyone we know was crazy. Like these are actual nice people. They're not comedians. They're not broken. They're healthy, happy, beautiful people. Yes. And we don't know people like that. Well, you said to me, life is better when you're around them. Yes. And that was one of the reasons why, even though it took years, we just kept going. It's also why I thought, you know, this sounds funny, that if I lost an enormous amount of money, like I couldn't sell it to pay for what I put out, that it was fine.

1:05:31That this is really about the experience. And there's something that I need to learn by being a part of this process. I mean, Michael Bonfig though took on the brunt of the work, being such an incredible filmmaker that he could be in these moments, bond with them, and not interrupt what they were doing. He wasn't an obstacle. And that's really why the movie is good. It's so good. But I really thought, oh, there's a, there's a lesson here. And all that is, it's like, it's the connection to you and Gary. Like, oh, there's something to learn here. That's what I always loved about Gary, because even though he was in so much pain, some of the time, and was neurotic, and was Buddhist, but had a hard time embracing all of it.

1:06:18Let's talk about Gary's hard time, because I think it's interesting, and I honestly don't know very much about it, but it seemed like something happened that changed him. Was it that business thing with the show? You know, it's hard to know. It might just be things bubbling back up. So, you know, we started making the documentary, and I had this thought that maybe Gary's brother dying when Gary was 10 and his brother was 13 of Cystic Vibrosis might be the beginning of some trauma that affected how he lived his life. But Gary never talked about it with me, and I didn't know if I was correct. But the more I, interviews I did, the more I talked to people, it just felt like something happened that made him see the world suspiciously.

1:07:13It made him sensitive, it made him want to protect his ability to be by himself, and that he was struggling with something. And then I met some people that he did talk about that with. But then one day, I'm, you know, going through his journals, I guess 30 years of journals, and I open it up to a page, and he's talking about some courage that some friends of his had due to a traumatic event. And you could tell it inspired him to be brave with his pain. And then the next page, it turns into a letter to his brother. Wow, and I don't know if the therapist said to do that as an exercise, or Gary just did it, and it's like eight pages.

1:08:07And so this is something that talked to almost nobody about this. And every single thing that I thought was happening was in the letter. And he's thanking him for affecting him for his entire life. And he says, you know, I'll see you on the other side. And he talks about his pain and how it affected him throughout his life. And it was just incredible that it was there. Amazing. Everything that he wanted to express to his brother, that this was maybe the most important relationship in his life. And when I looked at all the home videos of him, he was only so happy as a little kid with his brother.

1:08:45In every home movie, he's so happy. And so when his brother died, it changed him because someone told me that they didn't even tell Gary that he died. So he didn't get a chance to say goodbye when his brother was in the hospital. And then he only found out that he died by just overhearing it. They just sent him to, you know, a relative's house. And then in the house, it was, you know, another year, it's the early 60s or 1960s. And he, you know, was part of a family system that said, we're never going to talk about this again. And so they never talked about it. He didn't process it. And he didn't think that was the basis of all the resentment with his mom.

1:09:29Because he talked a lot about the mom. He never talked about the brother, but he talked about the mom a lot. Yeah, but I mean, we found this piece of footage. It really is remarkable that it exists. It's an interview with his parents when Gary was first starting as a standup comedian for some, you know, some news program. And they're talking about how proud they are of him. And the dad starts saying something like, you know, it's amazing what he's done. He's been through so much, you know, when his brother died. And his mom just says, like, we're not going to talk about that right now. Wow. And so you actually could see what it was like for Gary.

1:10:02Wow. And he was bottled up. And so I think Gary became obsessed with truth, loyalty, presence, because he felt mistreated and misled in some ways. And he was also fascinated by the, you know, the false mask. You know, how do we present ourselves to the world versus how we're really feeling? Yeah. Which is why he made such great art. It's like that's what he made that the art form. And some of it might be like the mom pretending everything's fine when it's not fine. Just people being full of it to just get through the day and avoiding their pain. That's why Hank Kingsley so funny, you know, because he's like trying to act friendly to everyone, but he's just a mess and a nightmare.

1:10:53And you know, as soon as he walks away and Gary's, you know, character is going on dates. And on the date, he makes him watch his TV show. And Gary just thought, you know, that's not what our connections in life are supposed to be. I always said that it was like he was eviscerating the part of himself that was an egomaniac. He created his worst self and mocked it. And he always used to say the difference difference between me and Larry Sanders is Larry Sanders couldn't write the Larry Sanders show. He didn't have enough awareness. Yeah. But his buddy love. It is. It's his totally lifted. Yeah.

1:11:37Amazing. I can't help but think about Gary. I just, I really miss him. You spent the, you probably spent in the last years of his life way more time with him than I did. I got to spend a lot of it because he spent time in Malibu. And I got to see him on a pretty regular basis. And he was struggling. I mean, I think that he had physical problems. But it's something, I feel like something happened. Like, did you see a change between the Gary who was making the TV show and the Gary after the TV show? Well, you know, in the middle of a TV show, he ended his engagement with Linda. And that had to be resolved legally because he, you know, he fired her after they broke up.

1:12:28She was one of the stars of the show. And that's, you know, the, you know, the definition of what you're not allowed to do to somebody. And then he was in a lawsuit with his manager Brad Gray and he felt taken advantage of. And I think that was also Gary's worst fear as, you know, brother figures, not living up to what his hopes were for those relationships. And then, you know, during the last season of the Larry Sanders show, he was in the middle of this $100 million lawsuit because he felt that they were financial improprieties. And he really wanted the show to be great because he used to say, Brad never did anything on the show.

1:13:12And now that he's not a part of the show, I wanted to be the best season ever so people realize he did nothing. Yes. So there was some revenge and there was a lot of that dark energy around the show. And then the show was about that his agent on the show Bob Odenger, that he represented John Stewart also and was pushing Larry off his own show for his other clients. So it became about the way you can get a sometimes get screwed by representation. And then he was really burnt out from doing the show. And he did win the lawsuit. It was resolved before it went to trial like literally the day before he got a settlement.

1:13:54He found out later that Brad Gray was bugging his phone with Anthony Pelicano. And he kind of went to jail and Gary testified. He went to jail for very long time. And Gary used to say like, I think someone's bugging my phone and we were all like, all right, Gary, yeah. Someone's bugging your phone. But they were bugging Kevin Neelan's phone because he was talking to Gary a lot. And so I think that made him paranoid. I think it really did damage that that relationship getting that dark and you know part of Brad's dealing with the lawsuit was to try to vilify him in the press. And say that he was on drugs and to say that he was irresponsible with the show.

1:14:32And I was around the show. I mean, not saying Gary wasn't doing something because who knows. But certainly, you know, the show ran as fine as any other show I've worked on. Of course. There's always moments where people run out of gas and you go, I can't do it today. There was a moment where Gary in the middle of the show just jumps out of plane and like went on vacation because he just ran out of gas. But we finished the show and figured out a way around it. But I think another thing that hurt him was he made this movie with Mike Nichols. And he loved Mike Nichols. He really looked up to him.

1:15:04And I think Mike Nichols lost faith in Gary and just kind of phoned it in. And he would leave every day at 3 .34 o 'clock and Gary wanted to grind and improv. And I think that Mike Nichols didn't believe in the movie and didn't believe in Gary. And instead of like doubling his efforts, he just tried to get through it to get to his next project, which he was more and so. And I think that betrayal probably was as hurtful to Gary as the bread. Gray situation. And you know, I was doing the documentary and I would just find all the stuff. And I put a cassette on like they're just cassettes and I would just listen.

1:15:43Like what are these are they stand -up sets? And it was him talking to his therapist for an hour about Mike Nichols. Just saying that how he felt mistreated and how he's just trying to do his good job as he can, even though he doesn't have his true support and partnership. And it was really heartbreaking to hear that. And then I think he had some health problems. He had some thyroid problems and they had pancreatitis. And who knows what he was doing if he was taking pills or you know lost control of that during certain periods. He certainly was foggy and not himself during a lot of time at the end of his life.

1:16:24But it sounds like it was self -medicating for the pain. Yeah, real pain emotional pain. I mean, it's hard to know with Gary because he always made jokes about taking pills. So you know Larry Sanders is like, who's got something? But no one ever had anything. You know, he used to chew excedrons all day long. He literally had a giant bottle of like 5 ,000 excedrons and he would chew them. Which may have led to his pancreatitis. So yeah, there's no way really to know the full inside story of it. You know, but he was still so nice. Red every script I ever sent him came to every table read. Any screening.

1:17:02I mean the saddest thing was when he died I went through all the emails from him. And every single email where I said, Gary, can you help me with this? Which is like, yeah, what time? For like 15 years. Incredible. Incredible. Good friend. I mean, you're like unbelievable because I thought, you know, when he died, why is this impacting me in such a powerful way? And I realized, yeah, he gave me my first important job writing for the Grammys. And then he taught me to write at the Larry Sanders show. Then he asked me to direct at the Larry Sanders show. When I didn't even ask him to direct. And then helped me with every movie I ever did.

1:17:40And as a friend was, you know, remember my mom died and he showed up with like a stack of Buddhist books that he thought would be helpful. And so it almost like cracked me when he died. I mean, I made that documentary over a couple of years, but it was a form of grieving. Like it's a beautiful tribute. So beautiful that it exists. I'm so glad that there's a way to organize what he was and what he did. And you know, because I thought, you know, Gary's very private person. I thought, would Gary hate this? Like, would this be his worst nightmare? Or would he say, you know, I don't know if you consider him as a Buddhist or interested in Buddhism.

1:18:24If there's anything anyone can learn from my life, I want them to learn from it. So I knew that he wanted to do something about his journals and he had even shot some footage with someone considering a show about stuff in his journals. So I thought there was some light permission there. But that's what he would want. Like I just want to help people that ultimately, if you believe in Buddhism, everything is meaningless. All Dharma is dreams. And all that matters is love and connection and that we're all connected. So why wouldn't Gary want that offering for other people? Which is ultimately just about how can we be better to each other?

1:19:06And you saw how he was to you. So you demonstrated it in always there when you needed him and was there to mentor and help you for your whole career. And the saddest part was Bob Sagitt was a big part of the documentary. And they got into a fight because during the Brad Gray lawsuit, you know, Bob made a joke about Gary. And I'm sure like he didn't realize the impact of it, but Gary tried to warn everyone who was represented by Brad and say, he's not honest. He's not what you think he is. And some interview about the lawsuit, and I don't know if Bob was pressured to talk to a reporter to help Brad out.

1:19:50You know, he said, I'm going to sue Brad too because I need a new Porsche. And at that moment, Gary was really, really upset and they didn't talk for very, very long time. And even at the end, it was just beginning to warm up. But in the documentary, Bob Sagitt, very bravely and beautifully did interviews where he was. And he was just crying and saying, the life is too short to have these types of fights. And we were like brothers and we were so close. And you have to forgive people and he kept saying, you know, we need to love each other. We don't have that much time. And then Bob died. And Brad died that year.

1:20:32And so, you know, looking back on it, I was always surprised at how willing Bob was to own up to a mistake. And to say to the world through this documentary, don't let these things tear you apart. You know, we have to love each other. And I think one of the greatest things that Bob did, it seemed shocking at the time doing those interviews. Because he didn't call me afterwards and say, Judd, I cried so hard. Can you not use some of that? I mean, he was very willing to share that sentiment. Yes. I got to film with Bob two or three weeks before he passed. And it was incredible and emotional and beautiful.

1:21:18And it's like, you know, like an Oscar performance, like some believable where he went. He was a really deep character and could really get in touch with his feelings in a way that I don't think necessarily came out in his comedy. But he was a deep cat. Well, you just love to make people laugh hard. Yeah. I mean, that's what he did. And it doesn't have to come out in your comedy if you're, you have a different types of comedy. Absolutely. And you're just a joy machine. But I think it's the same sensitivity, like the sensitivity that allows him to get so emotional, allows him to see what's so funny.

1:21:54Yes. Absolutely. And he was so kind to so many people that when he died, people were so devastated. Because I think it was one of those people that every time you saw him, he made you so happy. And you might not fully appreciate that. And then when he's gone, you realize, oh, this guy is one of the great joyful parts of my life. Tell me about writing jokes. What's the process? It's so interesting because it's such a weird process. Like comedy is tricky because there's no way to know if you're doing it right ever. At some point, there's a reaction from a reader or the audience. But it's not like a song and you hear it and you go, well, that's a beautiful song.

1:22:41Or you say you're home alone and you write a song on a guitar and you make a demo. And you're like, I think that's pretty good. When you do that with writing, it might be good. But you might get excited for a moment, but there is always a chance that you're completely wrong. Because every joke is an experiment, every comedy story is an experiment. And you really have to trust yourself. It's funny because I've been taking this like, these like flow research classes online. I'm fascinated by flow because comedy is all about just letting something come. And can you clear your head enough? It's everything that's in your book.

1:23:22Can you just clear your head and trust that something will come in that space? And it's so hard to get into it, such a practice. And I'm so impressed with people like Jeff Tweetie who writes a song every day. He wrote a beautiful book called How to Write One Song. And John Cleese has a great book about creativity. But it's always about, can you be bored? Are you comfortable enough in your own skin to sit alone in quiet? Get your mind to be quiet and then find a way to begin to prod it in some creative way. And with jokes, it's weird because it's silly too. I mean, I'm sitting home and I'm just trying to think like, how do I show that Steve Carell is a virgin and he's horny, but he's lonely.

1:24:10And he's sitting in this house. Oh, maybe he pees with a boner.

1:24:17I did my head. I'm cheering like I just wrote crime and punishment. I've never seen the pee with a boner joke. And then other times it's something much more intense and thoughtful and dramatic. And you might, in the moment, get a buzz. I think that might be great. And then you have to hold on to that because the process is so long. You might have that script for years. Wow. And are you going to get bored of that script and start just changing stuff just to change it? Do you still know it's good when that moment of inspiration is so long ago? And it's a weird, it's a weird type of creativity because it's storytelling.

1:25:00And then you're trying to make people laugh. And why do people laugh? Some people can really talk about it. I remember seeing Alan Alda and John Cleese do a Q &A and they literally talked about the psychology of why we laugh and why we're surprised. If it bends, it's funny. If it breaks, it's not funny. Like I made this movie The Bubble and it's on Netflix and it's all about people trying to make a dinosaur action movie in a pandemic bubble during the pandemic. And I kept thinking there's that expression, tragedy plus time equals comedy. And people would say like too soon. I'm like, this movie is not even too soon.

1:25:39It's now. I mean, I haven't gotten to too soon yet. And so that's the thing that you're always up against is you don't even know what the real rules are. It's all instinct. It's just, you know, am I doing this in a unique way? I think a lot about movies like, is the movement of the story different than things I've seen? Like I like when people can't predict where the story's going. Wow, I didn't think the movie would go to that place in the last half an hour. I'm always trying to figure that out. But lately, I've tried to just do what you're writing about in your book, which is a great comfort to me to read, you know, which is trust the universe.

1:26:27Because I'm not really religious, although I'm open. That's what I talk to the Avid brothers about lately, because I always have this joke, but I'm not kidding. I'm like, I'm ready for Jesus. Yeah. Tell me what to read. Yes. I mean, I'm ready for everything. Yeah, yeah. And so they tell me like certain writers about religion that I like to read. Because I'd like to be more open, but the one place where I do believe in something is at the moment of creativity. Because it always feels like it's from somewhere else. And something just pops in your head. I mean, do you think your head is chat GPT?

1:27:02It's just some weird supercomputer, or did something happen? And I saw it with Shanling. He'd sit down and we'd have to fix a scene, and I'd sit with him, and suddenly he would just, I could see him just come alive. And for five minutes, he's just scribbling, scribbling, scribbling. And those are the scenes, and are the best scenes in the whole show. And that's what I'm trying to commit to, because I'm less disciplined than you. I won't get in the cold plunge every day. I won't eat right most days. I won't meditate when I should. I do a very patchwork version of that. But the days that I get up, and I don't get on my phone the second I wake up, and I have just a cup of coffee, and I sit in silence.

1:27:41Usually something good happens. Yeah. Do you think what's funny today is the same as what was funny in the past? Or is it a constantly moving target? Yeah, it's always a moving target, I think. I mean, that's what everyone is dealing with now, because what makes us happy, and what makes us laugh, is different. And I always think it's like some people like Metallica and some people like Keith Urban. But we're expecting all of the Keith Urban fans to love Metallica, and the Metallica fans to love Keith Urban. I think that's really what's happening in the country is due to social media and the way that everything is connected.

1:28:19The people who don't want to be exposed to certain things are exposed to certain things. So because everything is fed to us, you might go, oh, I don't like that joke. But you didn't buy it in the old days. Yeah, you listen to Richard Parker because you bought it. But now you see things for free. But you still get to choose to get to choose what you want to watch and what you don't want to watch? Absolutely. Or you just swipe past it. Yeah. But I think that along with all this discussion of what hurts people's feelings and what we're sensitive about, it changes what we think is allowable because I think a lot of humor of the past was like mocking our differences.

1:28:57And being kind of vicious at times and being like funny about, oh, you talk like this, and I talk like that, and you know, your culture is like this and like that. And yes, some of it was cruel and some of it probably went way too far. And some of it is hilarious. Some of it is just the way we give ourselves a hard time. I have a therapist and he said to me, and I don't even know if this is true, but he said, one of the theories of how comedy began was you would have a group of people, you have a tribe and say it's like 20 people. And they'll hunt together. And then slowly one person is clearly a better hunter and is bringing back more food than everyone else.

1:29:36But they can't let him become or her become too powerful. So they give him shit. And that's how the joking started like to bring you down to the level of the group, which I don't know if that's true or not, but it makes some kind of sense that, you know, we like to take the piss out of each other. And in this era, everyone's like, well, that's mean. And for some people, maybe it is mean and you don't want to, you don't want to be able to do it to you. It's like some people want to go see Don Rickles. And some people, you did, you just knocked down at the first row to get in some way. I understand.

1:30:11I've been working on a documentary with Bob Newhart about his friendship with Don Rickles. Incredible. And he said everyone would walk up to Don and say, do me. Do me. Yeah, yeah. I remember he once insulted me to restaurant and I was so proud. But now some people, not everyone, but a small percentage of people, maybe they wouldn't like those types of jokes. And so it's weird and it's a little, it's a bit of a bummer too, because it's just a big buffet of styles. It seems also that the thing that makes comedy work is that it goes too far. Like that's why it's funny is that it's too far. I got to work with dice.

1:30:52And with dice, the idea was the reason everyone's laughing isn't because, yes, what he said, you're laughing because it's so wrong that it's funny. That's where the joke is. And now people debate, well, it doesn't matter what his intentions are. That's just a terrible thing to say. But that's the joke. Yeah. And that's the question too, which is like, if I love that kind of a joke. And I'll do jokes like usually just alone with the family to shock them. Like if you love that, should you not be allowed to have that as a consumer? Or is it like, well, for the people who want that type of experience?

1:31:35Because some people think that life is so dark and so weird that the dark as possible, you make them feel a lot better. Absolutely. It's always been the case. Humanism makes you feel worse. Yeah. It's to deal with the pain of life. Yeah. It's the escape valve. It's the pressure release valve. And at the same time, there's, I think every comedian has to decide what feels ethical to them. What do I want to say? What their line is. What is my message? And how do I want people to feel? And who is my audience? So, you know, I'm always on both sides of that issue because I think that that's part of the craft is, I want people to like it.

1:32:17I remember James Brooks was always like, you know, if you show them the movie and they don't love it, you failed. You know, and so like it's supposed to work for most people. But it is a weird time. The philosophy in the book talks about, yes, you want people to like it, but you don't change a frame of it to make somebody like it. That's the way I see it. Because then it's not, it's no longer, then it's just pandering. Then it's not authentic to you. And the whole idea of us doing this is that we each have our own authentic voice. It's different than everyone else's. And if we just water ours down to fit what a lot of people like, it defeats the purpose of us doing it.

1:33:07Absolutely. And I feel like the things that I've done that have worked were moments where I fully let it go. Yes. And that was, you know, hard for me, you know, when we did knocked up to go, I don't know if our people interested in my point of view, how I see the world, what I find funny, what my experiences have been, to trust that if I go all the way that that's when the most people will connect with it. But you know, it's hard. There's almost an arrogance in, I deserve to be heard. I always have a critical voice that's like, no, but if they don't like it, they don't like it. And that's fine.

1:33:42Yeah. It's different than I'm saying as a creator, you can't think past to me, this is the funniest thing. Yeah. Like this, this thing I made is the funniest thing. And any thinking you do past that only undermines your work. Yes. The art department, the art department is at some point you're, well, with the movie you're showing someone and then you find out if it communicated, does it get a laugh? Does it not get a laugh? And then there are jokes that you'll leave in a movie where you go, no one laughed, I don't care. I find that funny. And sometimes years later, that's someone they're quoting.

1:34:16Absolutely. For whatever reason. Absolutely. So that's the weird thing is a movie is shown to audiences, you test it. Yeah. And you make adjustments based on the rhythm of this relationship with the crowd as they watch it. And people, you know, we record the audience and we adjust timings and we ask them, like, what do you not understand? People are still laughing at a joke. Yeah. And the next joke hits and you miss the joke, that's not good. Yeah, you have to like, time it all but also talk to them about if they get it. But at the same time, there are moments I've had this in a bunch of movies where you think, I know the audience doesn't like this, but I want them to suffer through this.

1:34:49Yeah. Like this is a painful scene. Yes. You know, when we did funny people, it's about Adam being, his character being sick and not being able to learn any lessons from being sick. Yes. And there were scenes where people, you know, got uncomfortable because they love Adam so much that seeing him suffer is not fun. And at the time, you wonder, oh, did I put people through too much? And then, you know, a decade passes and you realize, oh, people really love that movie. It's a great movie. But at the time, you're like, oh, this is breaking some rules of just, yeah, what is, like the joy machine of certain comedies.

1:35:26Like, no, there's sections of this that aren't even about that. They're about you seeing what it's like to be selfish and how much it hurts his life to fully live in his desire for success. You know, he's sick. He has no friends. He has to hire an assistant to have an affront. And so you're standing behind things in a way that, you know, I was always inspired to do, because I would read this John Cassavetti's interview. And he said, I don't care if you like the movie or dislike the movie. I only care if you're still thinking about it like five, ten years. Yes. And that was my mantra during that movie.

1:36:03He also said, I don't even care if you like the whole movie. But if there's just a few moments that really connected you, then that's enough. I can remember us going for a walk on the beach after that movie, and me complaining, because I loved the movie. And I felt like a disservice was done to you by whoever released it, because they promoted it as the new Adam Sandler comedy from Good Apptow. And it's like, that's not what this is. And if you go to the movie expecting that, you're not going to like it. Exactly. It was like false advertising. Right. Because it was a serious movie. It was funny at times, but I would, it'd be a stretch to call it a comedy.

1:36:45That's true. I definitely tried to allow myself to let parts of the movie not be funny, and to lean into the dramatic side. But it's about really funny people, so they make jokes while dealing with problems. Yeah. But that's the strength of the movie. That's why the movie is so special is that it's not just another comedy. And we get to see Adam really go deep. Yeah. At same in Punch Shunk Club as well. We got to see him really like it was another side. It's like he's not just this guy who can make you laugh. I think those movies and those creative moments happen also because you're going through some of the things that you're going through.

1:37:26I remember Jim Carrey always said that whenever he made a movie, it would enter his life because it was something he needed to explore. And someone said, you know, you write the movie to figure out why you're writing the movie. And that was one of those experiences. My mom had died right before we shot. She was sick for a long time in cancer. And again, it's like a form of grieving. What am I supposed to learn from her life? How can I apply it to my life in these lessons? Because my mom was sick and every time she really was sure she was going to die, she seemed much happier. Like all her neuroses and she was a very neurotic person just disappeared.

1:38:10All the things she complained about, she stopped complaining about them. And then she would take some experimental medicine and they would say, I think you're going to be fine. And then she would kind of become a nightmare again and get very neurotic. Fascinating now. And it would happen multiple times over a few years. And so that's what I wanted to write about. It's how hard for all people it is to learn the lessons that the universe is trying to teach. All the stories are biographical. On some level, even the ones that I think aren't at all. So if I think about the King of Satin Island, which is very autobiographical, for Pete, even though it's fictional.

1:38:50I always think, yeah, but it's also about relationships and step parents. And can you let someone new in your life and create that loving, parental connection? So I had a lot of entry points for that. Did you ever see anyone, any comedians who are really great and really funny, stop being funny? Like just lose their thing? Yeah. I want to go both ways. Like do you ever see someone who's like not great for a long time and all of a sudden they're great and the other way? That's a good question. Who lost it? I mean, you know, with George Carlin, people debated his final specials because they went really dark.

1:39:39And in some of them, maybe some of the pieces were too dark. So in the documentary we made about him, you know, Stephen Cobair said, yeah, no, I think he went too far. I think that at some point it loses hope. But as I looked at it, I just thought they're just warning shots. I'm going to go so dark. So at the end of it, you would think, you know, maybe we should be nice to each other. But maybe this world, when it is dark, when we're terrible to each other, should be attacked. And maybe from hearing about that, you might want to be kinder. Because at the end of his act, it would always say, you know, be take care of yourself, take care of other people, some version of that.

1:40:26And that's what I think his whole theme was. So he would say all these dark things, but at the end of his shows, he would say, you know, be kind to other people, be kind to yourself or whatever the words he used were. But for some people, he had lost it. Yeah. That it was just too much. I mean, I remember he had a bit about wanting a suicide channel on TV, you know, and then he would do his impression of all the executives wanting more beheadings. And, you know, it's not that far from the truth, really, you know. So he would take it five steps past where you think he's going to go. But I think his whole theory was, you have to step over the line with the audience and make them glad they joined you for the ride.

1:41:05Yes. That was a great movie. That was really the George Carlin documentary. I learned so much. I loved him my whole life. And I got to learn so much about him. I knew nothing about him other than, you know, his album is that I listened to religiously as a child and then the HBO specials. So much interesting stuff. What an interesting character. Yeah. And me neither. I mean, I didn't know that much about him. That's why I was afraid to make it because I wasn't his friend. Yeah. I'd only met him in passing. I interviewed him once as a kid. But he was very similar to Gary at the end of the day. That's the funny thing is that he, his act was completely different than Gary's.

1:41:48But ultimately, he had an emotional journey of learning what his values were. And it really was that we're all connected. I mean, he had this theory about the great electron. And he basically believed in the idea that we're all connected. And for a guy who didn't really believe in God had a spiritual idea of the universe. And so it ultimately wasn't as dark as it seems on the surface. It's also interesting the way he wrote. It seems like he just wrote, sing it home alone, all of it. And it was never like there was no aspect of improvisation. That fueled his comedy like so many comedians have some jokes.

1:42:33And they get up on stage. They tell those jokes and kind of see where it goes, see where the story wants to go. It doesn't seem like that was the case with George. No, he was just a writer. And I remember seeing him once at Igbeys and he just had all his note cards. And he was just, it was all memorization. Can I perform this the way I wrote it? It was very musical. Some of the bits have so many words that they're so complicated. And it was, can I memorize this enough to hit the rhythm that's in my head of it? But we were very lucky because his daughter, Kelly, was just so open about him and didn't want it to be bullshit.

1:43:09Yeah. And just encouraged going all the way into his, you know, his good qualities and his bad qualities. And you can't really make those documentaries unless someone in the family or the person will allow you to tell the truth. It also seemed like in the middle there there was a period, maybe a drug period where he kind of got a little lost and then had this third act that was just in this best ever. Yes. Well, he, I mean at one point he said that he saw Sam Kinnison and said, I don't want to spend the rest of my career breathing this guy's dust. And so it made him redouble his efforts. He loved what Kinnison was doing and just thought, oh yeah, I kind of worked harder.

1:43:55Like if I want to be in this position, I have to continue to be groundbreaking. Which is pretty remarkable because I think most artists you can't say they're doing their best work in their final third. Rare. And Carlin really, according to my opinion, took it to another best level. And that's, that's inspiring to me as an artist that you can keep growing. You can keep getting better. So you know, whenever there's an album, like whatever time out of mind or something and Bob Dylan just cracks another one. It makes me think, yeah, you at any moment can be Mel Brooks and you make the musical the producers, you know, in your seventies or however old he was at that time.

1:44:33Yeah, and amazing that not only did he do his best material, but it was like he became a modern comedian again. I think of him from childhood as the hippie seventies comedian archetype. Yeah. And the best of the best. And then to reinvent himself in the, I guess late eighties early nineties, would you say? Yeah. As kind of the cutting edge of comedy. It's incredible. Yeah. Who are the musicians that you think have done that or are doing that? Dylan example is a great one time out of mind. Abins ridiculous. Also modern times is a beautiful album. I love that one. Neil Young can hit it out of the park on any given day.

1:45:25We're lucky to see Johnny Cash's ending last few albums really connect with people in an interesting way. I feel like Willie Nelson sometimes is just can't believe it. So beautiful. Yeah, but I would say a few and far between. Why do you think that is? People just lose their cheat a little bit or they don't think it's cheat. I think my best guess is early in your career, your whole life is about your art. And then through success, your life gets built up outside of your art family, other obligations, more comfortable life, adult responsibilities. Whereas when you're young, you don't have any of those.

1:46:17All there is is this dream. And I think over time, unless you put your art before everything else, which most people don't, as we grow up, it falls back to a place. And also, once you've had success, it's easy to fall back on, oh, this worked less time. I could do something like that. The hunger for staying new, finding the new way to do it, challenging yourself. It may not be as strong as it was when we were young. And the willingness to risk worldwide humiliation. Absolutely. And that's the thing with Neil Young, that people used to joke about some of the arms that some people thought didn't work.

1:47:03And he didn't give a shit at all. And that's almost a way someone's brain works where he's just creative, jump on when you want. And that is very difficult, especially in movies, because the movies are expansive. And when you miss fire, like you take a beating. And so to not bring the energy of the beating into your next project, takes so much strength. But it's not going to help. Like bringing the beating is not going to make the next one better. It's just the opposite. I remember after funny people, you know, I loved the movie. It wasn't a giant box office hit. The reviews were decent. But I was very, very happy with it.

1:47:49And I also thought, this is the one moment in my life where I'll be allowed to do this. An expensive movie with Adam, with the budget to show what a rich man's life looks like. To have a James Taylor and Eminem in it. And just the scope of it. But it felt a little weird when it was over. I wasn't sure what to make of the response. And I was talking to David Milch, who's the great writer to Deadwood and NYPD Blue. Who's also a mentor and any just said, I see what you're doing. It moved me in many places, really made me laugh in many places. And that's rare for me. Keep going in that direction. And that's why I did this is 40.

1:48:29Just those words keep going in that direction. And it was just great to have someone who's like, don't retreat. Yeah. And you know, those people are hard to find. Yes. You know, you need that. Yes. You know, my new project, I wrote the outline and I just sent it to the people that I respect. Yes. To just say, am I crazy? And so when they get enthusiastic, it's just enough gas for the tank to. And now when you look back on funny people, how do you feel about it? I haven't watched it in a while, but I'm very, I'm really glad that I made it. It was one of the great experiences working with Adam and Janusz Kaminsky and Leslie and Seth.

1:49:04And I think I captured a moment in our lives and in our behavior and. Norbert Donalds in it, you know, like there's like a lot of little details that are very special. And I'm glad I said, I'm glad it says what I wanted it to say, which. Which was as simple as at the end of the movie, Adam writes some jokes for. The protégé. Yeah. That it's just about giving and kindness and all that. It's funny because it goes back to Gary. At the end of the movie, you know, Adam has been terrible and it's the scene where he's apologizing to Seth. Because it's like his first real friend. And he says, you know, I wrote you some jokes the other night.

1:49:48And he takes up some crumpled paper and he starts reading the jokes to Seth. And they're all filthy. And one of the jokes is about his grandparents are so old that his grandfather thought he was fucking his grandmother, but it's really just fucking his own balls. Right? Just a dirty, ridiculous joke. Right? And I said to Gary, can you end a movie like this with that kind of joke? And Gary goes, you have to. Yeah. Because that's what he would say. Yeah. And that was so helpful. So. To have that voice. Absolutely. You know, in the world. So cool. Did you ever get to meet Woody Allen? I've never met Woody Allen.

1:50:30I'm trying to think of the, because I love talking to the legends. Yeah. You know, I'm very close with Norman Lear, who's a hundred. I was recently at his house and had just a hangout session with Mel, Tick Van Dyke and Norman Lear. Wow. So Mel's 96, Tick Van Dyke's 97, Norman Lear is a hundred. And then I got to interview Mel Brooks for the Atlantic the other night. So for like two hours, just grinding him like this. Just great. Just grinding Mel. Great. But more for wisdom. Just I want to know what have you learned in this life? But you know, it always is the same in the best way in the simplest way.

1:51:12Because I'm trying to figure out how to get Mel Brooks to not do his normal, hilarious stories. Yeah. I want to have the real conversation with him. And I said, when you talk to your kids and your grandkids, what's the wisdom you try to give them? And he just said, you know, be nice to yourself. Be nice to other people. You don't know what they're going through. And that is all it is. Yeah. Right? Like it's just we're all connected. Let's all be good to each other. And but the fact that I could sit with him and talk to him. In that all, he couldn't be funnier at 96. I mean, in two hours, not even reaching for a name.

1:51:50Just remembers everything. If you think about comedians spend their lives making things to entertain and bring joy to other people, that's what it is. Even the, even the filthiest joke, even the meanest joke. The intention of it is make a bunch of people have a better day. That's it. That's why I like spending time with. Those types of people, especially the ones who've just done it for so long and are still riotously funny, even in conversation, they can die so funny. It may normally are so funny. Do you meet Tom's mothers? I've never met the mothers, brothers. I'd love to. Me too. Man, man, they made me.

1:52:36Yeah, because that was another, like, smothers, brothers, laugh in. That was another phase of comedy where it was like different than everything that came before it. Yeah. Newt for the kids, you know, do more aware. Or if you think like blazing Zaddles. Yeah. There's nothing like that. Nothing was like that. And I was trying to get into a conversation with him about the morality of his work. The ethics of what he's trying to say, because, you know, he's using a closed fist to make some hilarious points, but in really funny, brutal ways. And he always tells that story about talking to the studio exec at John Callie about the movie.

1:53:11Like, can you really do this? And John Callie says, well, if you're going to walk up to the bell, you better ring it. And that there's satirical ideas in all of that about his humanity. And he told me, and I hadn't heard him talk about this before, that in World War II, one of his jobs, he worked for the Army Corps of Engineers, was to defuse bombs. So if you can imagine Mel Brooks, he's like every toilet, like you'd go to a house where the Germans had been living. Like in a community in France, they would put a bomb in the toilet. So if somebody flushed, they'd blow them up so they'd have to go to these places.

1:53:51And, you know, an output bayonets in the dirt and feel for something metal. And I said, do you think you're going to die? And he goes, every day. Wow. But you think, what does that do to someone? So when they come home from World War II, that they want to make blazing saddles. Yeah. And then you want to talk about, you know, the ways we mistreat each other through riotous rough jokes. And it must inform everything that experience like JD Salinger in World War II. How do you feel about late night TV now? I mean, I'm always a fan of it. So I'm always amazed that people can take the worst days in America and find ways to be funny or to console the country.

1:54:39It's a burden that I find really remarkable that all these people can handle. You know, Jimmy Kimmel is so funny, but he just hits the right tone when talking about a lot of the issues coming up in the country. And he's tough. And when terrible things happen, he's right there. And I feel like all the talk show hosts have had to learn this way to talk to the country about war and school shootings and the pandemic. And I just can't imagine what it would take to just wake up every day, go to the office, read the paper. Some days it's the worst stuff ever. And you go, I have to find a way to be funny about it or connect with my audience about it.

1:55:18And they do it for decades. It just feels like a real burden and a gift to give to people that they can do it. I feel bad that they have to. I feel like a lot of them are so funny. They probably wish that they weren't pulled into politics so much because they have so much more that they could offer. I wonder about that. I wonder if there's no rule that the monologue has to be about politics or that it has to even be about current events. Even though that's the way most people do it, it could be a five minute stand -up set that just kills. And that'd be interesting to see. Yeah, I think that they do all do that sometimes and some are more political than others.

1:56:04But I'm so impressed that they do it. And I find that sometimes I don't want to watch it because I'm exhausted. And I have to go through periods of not watching the news and tuning out completely and just protecting my psyche. And this is a conversation we always have in my house, which is your job is to make people happy and to uplift. And if you get pulled too deep into the muck and get too obsessed with all this stuff, whatever energy you put into it is not going into your creativity. But I also have a real, and I think it's like a Jewish thing too, like we're supposed to scream when bad things are happening.

1:56:44We're supposed to warn people. We're supposed to say stop. And so I almost have a genetic inclination to want to know what's going on probably to my detriment. But also it feels like, well, if we all decided not to comment, then what's going to happen? So it's a tough line. What's the last feature film you saw that you thought was really funny? That was really funny. I mean, trying to go sadness made me laugh a lot. I thought that that movie was really smart and funny. Everything everywhere, all at once has a lot of great comedy. I think anything that's super original that is a giant success says the industry don't forget to be original.

1:57:28Let people take chances. You might have a mega financial success if you give people that freedom. Because I think, you know, if you think of it as a pie chart of how much of the money is spent on those risks versus what they see at safe bets, it's less. And we want to encourage them to think originally make some a lot of money. Yeah, for sure. I think originally is key. It's also key in terms of just being interesting. It's hard to, I don't know, I find it hard to see the same things. Do you know what I mean? Oh, absolutely. The cookie cutter. That's why I like documentaries. Yeah, me too. Because they're original every time.

1:58:10And you're working in documentary now. Yeah. Are you enjoying those projects? Yeah, yeah. It's really interesting, really fun. I'm learning a lot in the process. And trying experiments that when they work are really interesting. It's a tightrope walk to. Yeah, well, it's a completely, it's just that it's a work in a completely different medium. I find it informs everything. Like I feel like my movies get better as a result of working in documentary. That there's lessons in the storytelling of docs that have informed just how I look at my writing. Is writing for stand up different than writing for movies?

1:58:51Or should I say writing jokes for stand up different than writing jokes for movies? I really like stand up, might even like it the best, but I think that the stand up writing is harder than the movie writing. Because so many people are doing stand up. And so many people are brilliant. And so many people are really unique in how they see the world. Like if I am with Chris Rock and we're just talking about life at dinner, he just has a different point of view on almost every subject than I do, but also a point of view that I don't even know if I could have thought of. So when you're writing stand up, you really are in the shadow of so much greatness.

1:59:35And you do have to just think, well, what's my point of view? What's happening in my life? And a lot of times with stand up, I just think my life isn't that interesting. And I don't know if my worldview is that interesting, but I really enjoy it. And I have a fun time doing it and people seem to like it. But I definitely look at other people and think that they're from Mars and are a gift to the Earth. I always thought that when I was working with Jim Carrey and Maria Bamford, who I love so much, that they're cut from different cloth. And Maria Bamford's like radio head. And when you're writing for a movie, there's always the story, like you have this story that's grounding it, whereas that doesn't exist in stand up.

2:00:22Yeah, and when you just stand up, you have to be true to who you are. And I used to write for a lot of comedians, and I could sit and write with Jim Carrey and imagine his point of view and do okay and write him decent stuff. Never as good as him. And did that for a lot of people I wrote for Rosanne and one of her specials and people like that. But in a movie, I can just create a different person and give them a crazy way of looking at the world. But it would be wrong for me to do that on stage unless I was doing a character. Was Rosanne incredibly funny? So funny. Yeah. I mean, I always remember one day she says, I want to do a joke about how it's better to suck dick than kiss ass.

2:01:10Because when you suck dick, it's like an agreement. Like, I'll suck your dick. You'll give me this. When you kiss ass, you're just doing it with the hope that you might get something. That's really funny. I mean, she would come down with these yellow legal pads filled with jokes and ideas. And we'd sit at her like breakfast, dick. And then I would try to sort through it and expand on how she ended up in comedy. She was from Utah. She said she grew up around a lot of Holocaust survivors. And one thing she told me that's in my book, Sick in the Head, when I interviewed her was that she thinks being around so many people talking about the Holocaust at the earliest possible age really was destructive for her.

2:01:57Like it wired her in a way that messed her up. Because it was a lot of Jewish people in a non -Jewish part of Utah. And she started doing almost like feminist poetry nights, things like that. And she was a waitress and doing, you know, collared jobs and found herself in the, I guess at that point, she was in Colorado. And found this domestic goddess point of view. And then it really took off. She visited L .A. She told me. And the first time she visited audition for the tonight show and got the tonight show. And then I remember her telling me she got a job opening up for Hulu Iglesias for six months.

2:02:43And she's on the road. I mean, I guess for part of it, she's like her family's coming with her and for part of it. She's away from her family. And she never realized that that was part of the job, like leaving. And that she got really bummed like, oh, my dreams are coming true. And I'm just a family. Yeah, she's lonely. Yeah. Wow. She, but she was great to me. And it was her and Tom gave me a lot of work early in my career. I worked on like three specials with Tom and one with Roseanne. And they were so funny. I mean, everything that they did would be so dramatic. It was right at the height of like the stars, Michael Banner and all of that stuff.

2:03:25And remember, there was a moment where Tom was mad because Roseanne got a call from Jesse Jackson who wanted to have lunch with her. And Tom's like, doesn't want to have lunch with Jesse Jackson. And Roseanne's like, he doesn't want me to have lunch with Jesse Jackson. He's jealous. Tom's like, I don't know what could just going to happen. He could fall in love with you. I fell in love with you. Why wouldn't Jesse Jackson fall in love with you? Unbelievable. Unbelievable. It was a really crazy, but kind of an amazing moment that Tom resand moment. There was a time where we're shooting in my grandmother's house, a Tom Arnold special and Roseanne's doing a cameo.

2:04:06And they're in a room and Roseanne's getting her makeup done. And Roseanne starts talking about plastic surgery. And she says, Tom, when you haven't want me to get plastic surgery? And Tom's like, no. I mean, I don't need you to do anything like that. I mean, I obviously love you the way you are. So why would I want you want to change it? And she's like, what do you mean? And takes it as an insult. And suddenly they're like, what do the room get out? And you just hear smashing people throwing into walls. And then a moment later, the door opens. And Roseanne says to me, the director Pete Segal, get in here.

2:04:52Did you think Tom was just making a joke? Or do you think he meant it? And Pete Segal, the director says, I don't even just make a joke. And she's like, you just want to get the fucking shot. And then get out and then suddenly boom, boom, boom. That's more funny in the room. And suddenly the door opens in Roseanne and Tom. And so, like, Tom has like three scratch marks across his forehead, like Bruce Lee came to the tap. And Tom runs outside. Roseanne following him. He takes the keys her card, throws them deep in these bushes. So she can't leave. Right. And now everyone's looking for the keys for an hour.

2:05:42They go back into the room. And then suddenly they're like, I think Tom said maybe they had sex in the room. I don't know what happened. By the way, it's my grandmother's house. And then it's like they just come out and they're like, all right, let's shoot. That is wild. I love that you've seen such interesting things over the course of your life. Oh, yeah. I mean, everyone is so interesting. Don't you think? Absolutely. This is a fan of creativity and people. I think for me, you know, sometimes I joke. I just want to be the Rick Rubin of comedy. But I think we have a similar love of creative people and fascinating and sometimes difficult personalities who have so much to offer.

2:06:32And I try to, you know, create an environment where they can do their best stuff. Safe place to do their thing. How can you get it out of them? And that also sometimes requires tolerating something or letting a moment go and understanding that the creativity also comes from the brokenness for certain people. And some of the behavior is not going to be appropriate. Yeah. When you see where it comes from, it makes sense. I can't think of a case where I feel like they're bad people. It's never that. It's always they had a life experience that led them to this place and they're broken. Yeah. And it's only sad for them.

2:07:09But the most therapeutic thing is for them to let it out. And then through that, letting it out, they heal. I mean, the audience gets to heal too. We all get to like celebrate this humanity and how crazy it is. Yeah, I always think when I'm writing movies that, you know, what we're doing is we're trying to figure out what someone's problem or wound is that is affecting how they make decisions in life. The place that they're stuck in some cyclical pattern. And then we imagine what would have to happen for them to learn the lesson to get over it. And so that's what a lot of my movies are is what would happen if you had come to your senses.

2:07:52Yeah. And it is like a hitting bottom to then see the world from a different angle. So, you know, on all the movies, my movies that I feel like I'm broken and I'm doing the same thing when I'm making movies that are inspired by things that have happened to me, it's the same as, you know, what I'm talking to Pete Davidson about. If you were to heal from this grief from what happened in your family, what would make it happen? Yeah. You know, how would you learn the lessons that you need to learn? Even funny people, it's about someone resisting the lessons. Yes. You know, because it's comedy always here like about sign felt like no learning.

2:08:27And I just saw the opposite and I love the sign funny. But I do. He's not so broken though. That's the thing with him. It's like the absurdity of them. Yeah. He's got a good handle on it. Well, I remember I interviewed him for my, for the sick of the head book and I'd ask him about all that and he just said, you know, my parents really, they really like trusted me and left me to live my life and do my thing even as a very young person. So great. And who knows if that was belief in Jerry or slightly negligent, but as a result, he really feels like he can handle everything and he has his own opinions about things.

2:09:09And so he doesn't feel the need for the lessons. Yeah. No, it seems like that. It seems like that works for him. How do you mean stiller? Stiller? I was at a taping of Elvis Costello unplugged. Wow. I bet that was great. It was fantastic. It was for the mighty like a rose album. And I remember him singing sweet pair and all those great songs that was, he was with the guitarist. Was it Mark Rebo? Is that his name? Mark Rebo. Tom Waits is guitar player for a long time. And I met him online. I was with Dana Gould, the great Dana Gould. And we said, hi to Ben. And Ben and I were talking about the fact that HBO wanted him to do a sketch show.

2:09:57And I had just done a bunch of stand up specials with people. I'm really done sketch. But we said, hey, let's get together and kick it around. We get together on the first day, come up with an idea. Set the meeting. Go pitch it. Sell it. I mean, we had sold it. People thought we were friends for years and years and years. We had known each other for two weeks. Amazing. And so we did that show. And you know, Ben had a real vision for comedy. I mean, he really reinvented a lot of things. I mean, he talked about it as a, you know, SCTV with money. Yeah. Then a little more money to do the sketches and a cinematic approach to sketch comedy in a way that no one had really aggressively done it.

2:10:39And I learned so much from him. I mean, he had already done a sketch show for MTV. And it was just one of the great experiences. I mean, the first big experience. And so we had, you know, Bob, and Kirk and Andy. How old were both of you guys at that time? And Jeanine, I was 24. Yeah. And maybe he was 25. Yeah. And HBO sold it to Fox. So we went from being a cable show to being a network show. Wow. And we were in charge. Neither of us had ever really done that. Right. And so it was a big learning experience and brutal and exhausting to try to make a show. Because we didn't know. You know, it was before digital cameras.

2:11:18It was before digital editing. Wow. So when you had added it was almost like VHS tapes. Yeah. You would keep recording over and over and over. Wow. And everything about it made it harder than it is today. And it was just exhausting. But but really fun. And you know, been someone who, I mean, he found so many of the great people. Absolutely. Everybody. He's really ground zero for a lot of what's happened in comedy. And I saw him improvising. And I learned a lot just watching him improvise because you know, we would do these sketches where he was an agent, Michael for a like fair. And he would be talking to someone like he would have like run DMC there.

2:12:02And the joke is that he's pitching them terrible ideas. You know, like, okay, we do, you know, maybe you guys are in Batman. You know, you could play the penguin. You're a little pudgy. You could play the penguin. Yeah. And but a lot of the jokes were jokes he was afraid to say to their face. So we would shoot the sketch, run DMC leaves, and then Ben would do the close up again and make all the jokes harsher. And and improvise for what a half hour straight of improvs and prewritten jokes that we were trying. And that's when I realized, oh, when you shoot, you don't have to just get the scene. You can get the scene plus a lot of other ideas.

2:12:38And in editing, you figure out what works. So so much that came from that. In your movies, is that the way that you do it? And so it yeah, that's the way that I do it. I try to make the scene work. Yeah. And then every joke I ever wrote for the scene that's not in the script, I bring to this at. And then I shoot the scene. And then I loosen it up a little bit. And then I loosen it up a lot. And you know, a fair amount of time the actor tops the joke. Yeah, it's the best. Yeah. And when those moments happen where someone just says something, you would never have thought of it in a million years, that's when I'm happiest.

2:13:13I used a joke. I want to be like, I want to be the anti -Aaron Sorkin. By the end of this, I would like to have written nothing. I mean, I know that Seth or whoever, Leslie can just come up with something I would never have thought of. Do they break each other up? Like if it's really funny, does it ruin the scene? Some people, that's the problem. Like the Harvey Cormin issue. Yeah, that definitely happens where I mean, the one that always made me laugh was Mo Collins was playing a gynecologist and knocked up. And she says, she's like doing a fake vaginal exam. And she improvises, oh, whoops. That's not your vagina.

2:13:53That's your asshole. And it was the biggest laugh I've ever heard on a stage from a crew. It just tickled people lost their shit. And then in editing, we were like, you can't say that because no doctor would ever say that. And then right at the very last test, I'm like, let's just slip that in. You know, the movie's pretty grounded, but maybe we don't give us a couple of those. Pandemonium in the audience. And then we left it in the movie. So great. Yeah, that there's something about going too far. It's like, yeah, yeah, there's been a bunch of those. That's what a lot of the full frontal nudity was about.

2:14:31That we were laughing about the fact that they never asked men to do it. And so for a few years, like my running gag was I would like full frontal nudity in every movie. Yeah, you know, so like, it's funny. It's so funny and it's so unexpected. But the crowd really could only handle a certain amount of it. When we did, you know, forgetting Sarah Marshall, which Nick Stoller directed, when we did the full frontal Jason, you know, if it's on screen for like five seconds, the crowd laughs. If you leave it up for 10 seconds, they start walking. It was anything with a walk card. We had this shot, which really made me laugh.

2:15:05Jake has it directed. And we wrote together where John C. Riley is doing Cox is on the road having that call that's in every movie where he's talking to his wife, but is surrounded by naked groupies. And talking about how much he misses her. And we thought it'd be funny if a guy just walks into frame, completely naked with his dick out. You don't see his his head just like tits down. And in the middle of the call is just like, hey, do we're going to get coffee? You want to get a coffee? And the joke is that he's just there for so long. Like the penis is on screen for so long. So, oh, no, it's okay.

2:15:37I'm good. All right. We'll see you. And we showed it to the crowd. And we left it up there for like 30 seconds. And people just stand up. They just They can't they can't handle it. And then you cut it down to four seconds. And they listed as their favorite.

2:15:57When you screen your movies for audiences, how different are audiences? I mean, that happens usually they're the same, but sometimes you have to switch theaters. So you're like first screenings in Burbank. And the second one is in Orange County. And the third one's in Pasadena. And they are different. There's different make -ups of the crowd, different types of people. And you know, sometimes if you test really well and you do another test, you're like, oh, God, I hope it doesn't go down. And you know, sometimes you know, you've made the movie better. And then the scores go down. And you have to hope that your partners know it got better.

2:16:28Yeah. Because you don't want to be, you know, just listening to anything the audience says. You need partners will go. We will take what we can learn from this. But they might have issue with things that we're going to leave. Because anyone does anyone take the position that we don't do test screenings? Yeah. Like who does Steven Spielberg ever shows test screenings? I'm sure there's a lot of people don't do that process. I doubt Paul Thomas Anderson does it. Some people have friends they really trust. They'll bring in 30 friends and have that experience. I with comedy kind of have to. I mean, there's no way to know, you know, how that kind of crowd will react.

2:17:04But I mean, thank God those people don't. Yeah. You really, you know, don't want them to know. I guess there could be. There could be moments where you would go. Yeah, that movie. If they put themselves through that, maybe they would have learned something. But for the most part, probably in the history of comedy, though, you know, the Marx brothers didn't screen their movies and get test. Well, they did something different in the early years. The era of the Marx brothers is they a lot of those movies were Broadway shows. And they would do them live. And then they would turn it into a movie like that's an interesting idea.

2:17:35I like that idea as something to experiment with Adam. Okay. And Wilfer wanted to do that with Anchorman too. They have this idea that they would do it as a Broadway show great. And then adapt it as a movie great. I then everyone was like, wait a second. So how many years will we make this movie? But it was a fantastic idea. That'd be really fun to do. That's like that's one of those like breaking the form in a way to create something new. I love that. Was SCTV a big deal for you when you were young? Oh, yeah. SCTV and Monty Python were so great because they were, it was just felt like they were coming from another world.

2:18:11Yeah. Like when I would see Monty Python on PBS in the 70s, it was like, what it not just what is it show? What is this world? What are these? Look how they're dressed. You know their references were foreign. Everything was weird in their dress like women and they're hitting each other with fish and the parents dead. And because I was probably like 10 years old. It just felt like fancy too. Yeah. These guys are smart. But yes. Also silly. The language. The language use in those shows was so elevated. Compared to every all the rest of the comedy we saw was not Abedic Castello. And SCTV was like that too.

2:18:48This all the guy Gabel, Yero and the running of this small town TV station. And then they would do like George Carlin starring in death assessment and stuff like that. Or you know, Jerry. Bobby bitman. Oh, Bobby bitman is funny. I love Bobby bitman or just they you know there's that sketch where they're they're doing a game show and everyone is so dumb. But it did feel far and two like what is it? Who are these people? Is now you know that I'm old or I look back and go what? What did I want to do? Like what what how did I interpret all of those experiences? And I think a big part of it was, oh, I wish I was part of that group.

2:19:27Yeah. I wish I was on Saturday night live. I wish I was in SCTV or at least like a cameraman or a writer for it. So I think like in my career, I was always trying to create communities of people. To collaborate. So oh, we're kind of like our little version of a world. Did you ever meet Del Close? No. Never met Del Close. Always jealous of the people that went through second city and the groundlings. I never was able to do that because I was doing stand up. And if you wanted to take classes, you had to stay in town for six months or a year or more. And I was doing stand up. So I didn't go take those classes.

2:20:04Was the word on the street of like going to see Del Close the thing to do? I mean, all the people like Adam McKay, you know, talked about him in the reverential terms. But yeah, it wasn't an experience that I ever had. I never even went to second city till like 15 years ago. But I'm really impressed. I actually did stand up for, I mean, I'm sorry, I did improv for the first time in my life. I'm 55, like two months ago. I went to Ben Schwartz, his show at Largo. And I thought I was doing stand up on it. And Ben's like, oh, I thought you were just going to come watch the show. We don't have standards open.

2:20:42We just do improv. Do you want to do improv? And I just got like the terror. Like if someone said you have to go make a speech. Yeah, like full terror. And then I just thought about it. I went, yes. And then I went on stage with him for like a 90 minute improv. It was like it was so scary in the beginning. Yeah. And I'm a terrible actor. So it's hard for me to fully commit to weird characters and things. But I just said to myself, just do it. Just shut up and just do it. Like you're funny. How can you not be able to at least be up there at a okay level? And then by the end of it, I thought I was decent to the point where I was like, okay, I could do that again.

2:21:27At some point. Yeah, that wasn't a humiliation. I got a few laughs, but a completely different experience than stand up. Because you have to be completely in the moment. You can't plan anything. And you're really trusting that something's going to come. Would it help to do a little bit not on stage before doing enough? Seriously. Like if you did that with your comedy friends for half hour a day, just to like practice those muscles. I'm sure that's what people do in classes. But there's something about the rhythm of the audience and how they're responding that starts programming your head about what to do.

2:22:04I see. And it was very informative, but a completely different experience. Like doing a guitar solo where you're just like a jazz riff. Yeah. But I was proud of myself for doing it. Absolutely. Because there are things like that I've always been so afraid to do. And you know, like we did a benefit with Dave Grohl and Greg Kirsten. He does the Hanukkah sessions. So at Largo, it was a night where people perform with them doing songs written by Jewish composers or rock stars. And he said, you know, he said, can you do spinning wheel, which I have done in karaoke. And that's one of my biggest fears.

2:22:46I just stand in front of Greg Kirsten and Dave Grohl and sing spinning wheel while they're playing. And I just said, yeah, just can't be a wimp. You got to do it. Even though this is like your worst fear in the world. And then it was really fun. But in my head, I'm like, none of the lyrics will come. I'm just going to I'm going to fully black out. So I feel like at this age, I'm just beginning to let go of some of the limitations. Not that I'm any good at any of it, but just mentally to go, well, why wouldn't you do it? You know, what is the year loose? Yeah. Yeah. It's a funny, it's like a funny moment now.

2:23:25That's why I'm like so into your book because you like when you've done a lot of things, you can either go. There's nothing left to do or maybe I scraped bottom of what I'm capable of or what I have to say. Or you can take another huge leap into the abyss and go, maybe I'm nowhere near the bottom. Maybe I've been like, milked it at all. And if I found the courage, there's another vein of stuff. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because it's all it's rooted in our imagination. It's like more like as much as we can imagine, we can go on that adventure. I'm not saying it'll be good. But we never know if it's going to be good.

2:24:10It's fun though to make those leaps and just see, try crazy experiments and see where they go. I personally don't do them in front of an audience just because I've never done hardly anything in front of an audience. I tend to do everything more in the controlled setting of a recording studio or with friends writing stuff. But it's a fun experience to just see, where does it lead? What does it get you to? Yeah, it requires so much trust because spiritually, like when you write in the book, you know about all the ideas of how we're all connected and universal intelligence. And I do have that part of me that believes in all of that.

2:24:48And I have to work to get there. But like with my new screenplay, I'm trying to just dictate it. So I just turn on a tape recorder or have someone typing. And if I remove the idea of typing the mechanicalness of that there's something between my mind and the page that even typing slows it down. Yeah. That I can try to tap into something and trust it. Like yes. And so sometimes when I'm writing, I'll go right to scene in five minutes. And I'm just whatever happens. Let's just like a jazz riff. Let's see what happens. And there's always something good. But it's hard because at the moment right before you do it, I always have a voice that's like, don't do it.

2:25:36So I'm to it. It's not going to be good. None of it's going to be good. Why are you writing at all? And you know, that critical voice has to constantly be be it's not you and it's not on your side. That voice. I just draw you. That's why I do stand up because I feel like it's the one place where I'm forced to be completely present. Yeah. And that voice has to disappear. There's no way to do it. So when you're when you're talking into your recorder and you're writing a scene through saying it, are you playing the different characters? Are you describing it or about? I'm just saying it out loud.

2:26:12So it'd be like it be as if we're hearing the scene in the movie. It's not you're not described. It doesn't doesn't sound like a script. It sounds like a scene. Yeah, because what I do is I'll take a day to write all the ideas for the scene. And I'll you know, it's seen me not need more than like six jokes, but maybe I'll write 35 different joke ideas, things that might happen in the scene. But I'm not locking in on exactly what it is. And then when it's time to dictate it, I'll read that. And like maybe I'll highlight three things and then I'll just go, okay, do the scene in real time. And a fair amount of the time, something interesting happens that you didn't think away away people talk to each other joke with each other or point something out that if I thought too much about it, I might not make as unique a choice.

2:26:57Yeah. And that's been very helpful, but it's it's a struggle. And I'm doing you first start doing this when when was the first time you did this sounds fascinating. I remember Matt Winer from the madman told me that he dictated the show. That's how we would write it. And that's what Rod Serling did when he did Twilight Zone. And I've done it before with people typing. This is the first time I've done it sometimes with people typing, but just sometimes I just take a walk and hit a voice note. But like I was thinking recently, I think I could write the rest of the screenplay in one sitting that if I had the energy, I could try to just channel the whole rest of the movie.

2:27:39I haven't been able to usually I run out of gas at three scenes. But there is a part of me that thinks like I could pound coffee and do a Jack Kerawak lunatic, maybe without the meth. And just see what maybe with the maybe with the meth with the meth, a little meth, just a little bit of meth. But it is that trust that it, you know, like if Bob Dylan says the reason why he wrote so many songs as they were presented to him. He's just typing. Yes. If I can get out of my own way and I think it's ridiculous. I can try to see what my version of channeling that stuff is and see what makes sense. And so far I'm halfway through the script.

2:28:18I'm really surprised at how good it feels. That's great. Or you in the mood to channel a scene for us right now. What is the scene? What would this seem to be? Look at your list of scenes to write. Maybe it can happen real time right now. You get one out of the way. Why not? Exactly. Exactly. If I could think of a scene. Tell me the characters. In what I'm writing. Yeah. Do you want to be something that you're writing? You want to be something else? Might as well get one for the movie. I don't want to give away the movie yet. I know what I'm doing. You think doing the scene would give away the movie?

2:28:54Yeah, probably. But yeah, that's a good experiment. Let's see if I have the energy to think of a scene. Let's think about something maybe something based on what what happened today. What happens morning today with the family. I'm trying to be like where if I take a moment to go like where would my mind go? The scene. Because I was at the Oscar parties. That's a good place. Yeah, those Oscar parties are so funny. Can you talk to like so many people? Like it's a sea of people. It's everybody that you've ever wanted to talk to or you know have watched or fascinated by and they're all just all in the same room and then you have to decide.

2:29:35You know who you're going to talk to and you're usually hammered. Are you comfortable going up to anyone? Well, if you're hammered, maybe. Yeah. Well, this is interesting. This applies to you. Okay. I saw one of your interviews with maybe it was with Anderson Cooper and before the interview started, you said let's meditate for a second. Which also made me think of Gary because there's that moment in the documentary where him and Ricky D 'Ravese are kind of wrestling and a little bit and Gary's not being very nice and then Gary says to Ricky D 'Ravese. Like let's let's just be quiet for a moment.

2:30:10Can we just be quiet for a moment? Like he's trying to get him to meditate like you. But doing it in a very hostile way. Like it's completely inappropriate and wrong. But there was a camera shooting it from a distance. It wasn't for the show. But I found a camera discovered it and Ricky D 'Ravese couldn't do it. Like he was so uncomfortable by Gary. And maybe he didn't meditate or something. And I always felt bad if Ricky D 'Ravese thought I included it to embarrass him because they they got in some kind of struggle over you know Gary. And then he asked the crew to not be in his house when he got there.

2:30:46He was doing an interview for Ricky D 'Ravese interview show. And then Ricky was going to do a DVD extra for Gary. So Gary comes home there in his house. And then Gary's just really passive aggressive or aggressive with him. And Ricky D 'Ravese keeps kind of smiling and trying to be a normal person. And let's do our fake showbiz thing right now. And Gary just goes to like full weirdness. Yeah hostility. Yeah almost like to say I'm going to out cringe you right now. Like you think you're the king of cringe. This is how cringe works. And I put it in the movie not to be embarrassing to Ricky. I put it in the movie to show how mean Gary could be.

2:31:24But Gary. But he felt wronged. He felt wrong. He felt wrong. He did remember what was happening. Yeah. And he but he doesn't go Buddhist on it. He doesn't go. Okay was a mistake. What do we do? Like Buddhism would be like well forgive. And it's not a big deal. And who cares if he's in your house. I mean that's a Buddhism would be it wouldn't be like you know now we're going to lock horns and I'm going to like peacock and I remember him talking about it. He was obsessed with it. Yeah. And just like how he felt, I think he felt like where he was somehow challenging him, that's what it was. Yeah.

2:31:56And he came in like, who's this guy to challenge me in my house? And I really don't think that's what was happening. No, but that was his perception of what was happening. Which is his issue, right? Absolutely. People mistreating him. Absolutely. But I saw you at the beginning of the interview with Anderson Cooper. You said, well, let's close our eyes and meditate for a second, like to get present. My friend Pete Holmes has really, he's been talking about priming, which I don't know that much about, but the idea of just setting what's in your mind in the ways it affects other people. So before the Oscars, you know, usually I'm really nervous.

2:32:34I get a lot of anxiety because it's too many people. I kind of can't remember anyone's name. Like that's a big thing with me, which is I'm very bad with names. And sometimes I forget who they are completely. And so there's a lot of people saying, hello, where I'm having a very awkward moment, where I have to figure out who they are to I tell them I don't know who they are. Just because my brain doesn't work great that way. And so the whole night's a little scary for me. And I'm also afraid that I'm going to have a lot of faux pas. You know, that I'm going to drink and say terrible things to people.

2:33:05Or just get obnoxious in the next day feel stupid that I was so loud and trying to be funny. And maybe not being that funny. And I sat and thought, okay, I'm going to have an intention for tonight. And it's corny, but I'm going to just think I'm so lucky I get to talk to these people. There is a space that they're all together. And there's so many people I could learn from or just show my appreciation for what they do and don't make it about you and who didn't like you that night. Can I make it all either to show appreciation or to be present with people the way Rick's trying to be with Anderson Cooper, which people could make fun of.

2:33:45Like, oh, he's show boating and trying to like look like spiritual guy. But actually it works. Like it really does work. And it really affected me the whole night. Like as the night was almost ending, I thought, oh, I completely forgot to be half an apanic attack tonight. I was just kind of having all these weird conversations. And I wasn't thinking about my intention, but it was there for the whole night. You were primed. I was primed. And it was so weird. But yet I don't have that much discipline to do it every day. But that had a big effect on me because I was like, wow, that was the least anxious I've been at an event like that.

2:34:25It's funny to hear you talk about it because what you're describing, if it were me, and I felt the way you felt, which I probably do, I wouldn't go. And I didn't exactly because I feel the way you feel. So it's amazing that you put yourself through this. Yeah. I tried to think that every person there is as weird and insecure as me. And they might be that they're all there and they all feel a little weird and, you know, they're all a little overwhelmed at every turn as every person you've ever seen anywhere that it's just such a strange situation. But what a weird gift to be allowed to whatever go talk to Tyco, what tea tea or, you know, just like, you know, just have moments with people that, you know, were admire.

2:35:11But there have been years where I just lock up. You know, Leslie and I were sat at a table at this vanity fair dinner and I was sat next to Nora Efron and Seinfeld, you know, is at the table and I just got scared and did not say barely a word the entire time. Like full lock up. Like I've done that a bunch of times where someone I admire, I so admire them that my brain melts down. The funniest one was me and Ben wrote a movie for the Rolling Stones and Mick Jagger flew us to London in the 90s just to have dinner with them to discuss this movie. There might be a concert film with some comedic elements.

2:35:55And at the dinner, I just got so scared and said almost nothing. At one point he was talking about being on the road and I'm like a kid. I'm like, yeah, I go on the road sometimes. Jim Stannup comments sometimes it's really lonely being on the road and he just stared at me like, you're not in the same universe as me. Don't come back. Our experiences. So funny. It's so funny. I'm picturing that the dinner sitting next to those people and not being comfortable to speak. It's a funny thing with comedians. I've been around groups of comedians and there's a real, I'm going to use the word, I don't know if this is the right word, but I'm going to use the word desperation to get their lines in in front of each other.

2:36:46It's wild. It feels like, and I'm not talking about this is not on stage. This is not in front of an audience. This is just a bunch of guys sitting around a deli table and there's a real power game going on of who can get the funny line in. And who can keep the interest of the table even when they're not being funny. That's another part of it. This power dynamic that's going on. It's wild. And wanting to control the table. Absolutely. And it's like meeting too. Like, like, like, Lyon's deciding who's in charge. Yeah. Like, someone has to like, defeat everybody else. Yes. And you have to decide if you're in the mood for that.

2:37:29You know, sometimes like, you just feel infisty. So you just jump in, everyone's like, whatever, telling stories or making fun of each other. And other days, you just, you're tired. And you don't want to talk. And you're just listening. And you go, I'm just not even going to talk. I'm around all these funny people. And there are some people that's a needy thing like, I can't have this conversation if I don't dominate it. Or I so love this mini crowd. I respect everyone around here. And there's nothing I find more fun than trying to make these people crack up. Like it's the ultimate, you know, goal is, okay, here's the legends of comedy.

2:38:04Can I do well in front of them? But you really have to be in a, in a place. I'm rarely in that place. I'm more of an audience when that happens. Yeah. Me too. I like to be an audience in those situations just because it's fascinating to watch. Yeah. It does feel different than any other social engagement. Something about comedians getting together. And you're seeing the best people do that. So, you know, that's like if, you know, the Marx brothers and the Abed Castello and the Three Stooges all sat around giving each other shit and being funny. Like the people you've seen do that are like the greatest people ever to see do that.

2:38:48Yeah. Cool. Well, thank you so much for doing this. It was a pleasure. Very fun. Pleasure talking about stuff. From right away, get us living by. We just sleep right here. Pretty comfy. Yes.