M. Night Shyamalan

27:13And it's, you know, I - I restored it, but didn't change it. No. I mean, like, you know, technically, technically, technically, technically, that made sure that it was colored and here it is so that it can present it. And I was watching it with the color timer and I was dazzled at this. Like it's, in my opinion, terrible, right? Imperically terrible. But yet the kid, the 21 year old, and the time that it was, 1993, was so different. It's like a, it's another time period. Like the way that I thought you could talk that earnestly and be that sentimental and it was, that was okay, that was cool. I was like, man, that kid, I admire his naivete and his innocence, want to protect him, you know, when I see it.

28:06Because how much has your approach changed over the years from men to now? Strangely similar. I mean, just a creature of habit. I mean, very similar like this next movie I'm doing, it'll have the same cadence. This is weird thing that I had when we say cadence, like, six cents. You might look at the back of a Blu -ray and see this slightly differently, but this is the truth. The six cents is 107 minutes, unbreakable is 107 minutes, sign is 107 minutes, the village is 107 minutes, and how's that possible? And that was unintended. Unintended. That's unbelievable. who are unintended. And I think that's something again with the, with the vaining of the leaves and the thing about nature and how we are that maybe math and rhythm and it's more related what we think of as art and science or math is more related than we think.

29:05You can do an analysis and going, well, that's the way you hear the rhythm of the way you talk and the way it bounces off the audience and how much they can take and how fast they want to hear the way you talk. But it is kind of fascinating. But to answer your question is fairly similar. You know, I write the first drafts and I give myself six weeks to do it from the outline, you know. And in the outline begins, after I've committed emotionally to getting a notebook where I fill it with ideas and when that notebook has enough ideas, I go to the outline, you know. And the ideas, random ideas, it's not linear.

29:43It's random ideas and contradictory ideas. He lives, he dies. Could be like this, it could be like this, could be like this. Yeah, whatever, whatever, and that process of free association is important again to get to the door. Stop thinking. You do this by yourself. Yes. Do you sit at a desk? Tell me about physically how this happens. That's also a game of psychology of, you know, I have as many places to sit and write in my house And in my office as I can, you know, it may be it's me hiding from my demons or whatever, but in that seat It's it's coming to me and maybe that's superstition like sitting in the same seat during a baseball game every single time because they won the first time Yeah, yeah, but it could be as rudimentary and primitive as that But regardless it's a placebo that works so that area the way I sit and look and you know I've attended to you know too of looking up that you you look up to and you're emotionally and it that's scientific in the sense that where the imagination is?

30:45You know, for whatever reason as human beings and a doctor could probably explain this better or someone that knows the brain, but as you look down, you have darker thoughts and as you look up, you have lighter thoughts. This is why we look up when we're trying to stop crying, you know? And you have different, your brain goes into a different mode. And so I think, you know, when I sit up, there's actually even like a reclining position in bed right before I go to bed, like I read before I go to bed. And whatever that angle is, that 45, and then my head's like, you know, against pillow, but I'm looking up at this corner of the ceiling, I can see everything.

31:21Like I get, gosh, you know, I'm right that down, right that down, right that down. Oh, I have to say this, I have to call Rick, I have to do this, and I get 20 things, but the rest of the time, it's convoluted. And so I'm very open to that. And then also when I'm, like for example, in that exact example, when I'm reading it and then often because I'm reading, especially if I'm reading something, I'm very inspired by by an artist that's writing with inspiration and precision. I will glimpse the answers to the thing that I'm working on, like almost like it's on the right, on the other side of the book because it's happening simultaneously.

31:57And I'm going, oh, I know what to do now. I know that thing. But I'm reading a completely unrelated story. And just it's just that they're reminding me how to get to the door again. Yes. It's amazing how if you have a question you're trying to solve or probably trying to solve, if you just sort of pay attention to what's going on around you, for some reason, more of them and not, it seems like the answer comes. Like you're holding it. If you believe in the brain waves and things like that, that when we're in flight or fight, you're constricted. And when we're about to fall asleep, like I was just saying, you're just not in that headspace.

32:42You see everything. You're free. You're free. And so it's as dances and finds it and grabs it and brings it to you. And that might be that. you know, when you know, we're here in your studio and if it's flat or inspired, it's, you know, you can panic. And then the pen, now you're in fight of flight, now you're in the, you know, wrong wavelengths to connect with everything. And so it's very, you know, important in terms of, and that's why early in our careers, it's much easier because the system has completely rejected you. You're not even, you're not even really considering them. Yeah, you're not considering them, Right.

33:19And then later when you've won, and they've, they've anointed you in the system, wow, you can't get to the door anymore. Yeah. Are you superstitious in general? Yes. Yes, you know, I'm very much like you come to our house. I'm very, I have photos of everything, photos of every, every moment in our family, like a church to the life that we've had. Like you come in and it's like, there's the 16th birthday, there's the 30th birthday, that's the thing, that's the vacation we took. And it sounds normal, but it is a strangely like a shrine to gratefulness. And yesterday other day I was walking to my office and all my movie posters are there and I'm walking up the stairs to go to my office to work and gotten so grateful.

34:06I, you know, by the time I got to this, the top of the stairs, I was like, I don't know how to thank whoever for this opportunity. And yet every step along the way, I felt like I was suffering. Yeah. Do you think that the pictures and the posters are there to remind you of something? Yeah. They are because, you know, when we're... Well, again, they're the things that I hold sacred, which is the family, you know, and our friends, you know, that are in those photos, the curation of a life. And it's not passive, and it's you're the artist. And the car wreck can happen to you. And it does happen to all of us, you know?

34:54What you do in the next moments, then it uses that color in the most beautiful way. And I guess I just, you know, when I have go through really bad periods like when something, when something bad's happening, or something, I'm not constricted by the fear of the bad thing happening. When things are going really well, it's classic, you know, classic feeling. And so I feel so bad. For example, something bad happening. You know, when I worked for Harvey, you know, that was a tough time when I was a kid, you know, and it was dark and, you know, I felt no agency. Yeah. But yet again, in retrospect, getting to spar with the darkest person in our industry as a kid.

35:44Those who struggle. Yeah.

36:08Yeah, yeah.

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37:27What's your first memory of going to the movies? One memory has obliterated the others, which was seven and seeing Star Wars. I mean, probably movies pre -star wars, but star wars were so important day. Yeah, it took over. It took over. I became a different person on that day. It was what I assume people feel with religious zealots when you know what, what you feel. You felt reborn. Yeah, I felt this is truthful. In some universal answers, this is a seven year old mind, said this makes sense. I'm in and I don't mean in a like a video game way. I'm in it in a Religion way. Yeah, whatever cosmic yeah cosmic.

38:12Yes whoever was this and I didn't know George I've just seven years old right you don't know who any of these people are or Joseph Conrad You don't you don't know anything but you know whoever did this on an intuitive level knows the truth and So it was that that was what I was feeling in the in the car in the station wagon on the way home I wanted to feel it again. Yeah. You know? Did you have any of the figures? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I still have them. I have them in a little box. The ones I had in 1978. They're there. They're sacred. Yeah. You know, what was the next movie experience where it was like game changer for you?

38:54Yeah. That would be Raiders. How it would be Raiders. Yeah. And it was also because I can think the universe had me go. We went there. I didn't know what archaeology was. I didn't want to go. I remember that feeling because I didn't want to, I thought it was some science thing and I didn't want to go. And we went with your parents? No, I went with my friend and they dropped us off. So with your parents? I did. Parents and my sister. But my parents obviously dropped me off at the theater and the Narbert theater and we, and we were waiting in line, it was a huge line outside to say it. We get in there to old theater.

39:32I think it's that 2000 or something, or 1000. It was a huge theater and old -fashioned, you know, with all the ornamentation and everything. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And couldn't sit next to each other because there was no seats available. Terrified. I mean, I was a real shy kid. Really, this was terror on a scale that was, I don't know what to do. and he does no phones and nothing can call your parents. And I, he's my friend says, when I sit down and there's a couple next to me and they see I'm very scared. Like I'm very like holding my hands, I'm very scared. And they're like, you okay, I'm like, I'm okay.

40:07You know, and they're like, and they went to get a popcorn and thing and they brought, gave me it. And I was like, thank you. And I was sitting there and then the lights go down and then the mountain starts the logo. And then the logo turns into a real mountain. And again, without knowing, you know, going, whoa, you know. And again, we're talking like two of the masters that were telling it like they're the game -changing ones. And how lucky was I, you know, to experience that? And then came out of it and it was, I was changed. And I was like, I'm, I gotta keep doing this. So then it became play, a version of play, to do that.

40:45And then, hey, can I act out the movies? Yeah, yeah. And then you're acting and out, acting and out. and then taking my dad's camera and saying, hey, can I do this? This is, these guys are doing this. How do you do this? And then playing with the camera. How old were you and start playing with the camera? That age, 10 to 12, you know. So taking my dad's camera. And then in that year of the video camera started to come, the VHS and the beta max camera. But they were huge and they were plug into your, your actual beta max. At first, was it eight millimeter? It was eight millimeter, yeah. So you started in film?

41:19Yeah, absolutely. That sound was so sad as I got in the camera and you know and then the play is so wonderful the thing you did for fun everywhere at 15 and you read a book that there's a guy named Spike Lee and he goes to a school called the Tissue of the Arts and you can go learn how to become a filmmaker and that was like I can do the play thing as a career. Was there anything else you ever wanted to do besides the filmmaking? I mean, only I mean, I love athletics. So I was always that was always kind of fantasy of like tennis or whatever it was. But this was the real really soul career thing.

42:01It was kind of just you just know and see your brain is just all that's all you're thinking about. Yeah. And I'd say that when people come to me now and my wife will have a different answer to this or a comment on this subject. But when people come up to me and go, are you going to take a break? there's so much assumption in that statement and I get it. The assumption from the person that's asking that is you've constructed your life in a way that you have to do something and then you're doing that to do the other thing and so you should take a break from the thing you have to do so you can do the things that you want to do right there's an assumption because most everyone in planet is doing that I'm so lucky.

42:42You're doing the thing you want to do. Yeah it's so if it was yoga or painting or what it was. Yeah, the thing that gives you absolute peace and connection to the world is the thing that I get paid to do. So sometimes I pretend I go, yeah, I'm going to take a vacation soon, but then I hate myself for that answer. Yeah, do you have a passionate connection to anything else besides film and your family? Sports. Yeah, I do. You know, you're done. Watching or playing. Yeah, like I play basketball all the time. And I have both my knees. I have two ACLs both done from basketball, you know, therapy, the whole thing, all in.

43:25And as an exercise to carve yourself, you know, you're disciplined and connection and I learn about myself. Tell me something about writing something that someone else directs. Oh, yes. I wrote Stuart Little. and then another person directed it. What's that like? That one was good and okay, because it was almost like a semi animated thing, right? Because there were live action people in that, but because it's almost another art form, the animation thing, and it's not something that I'm motivated or know how to do, it was totally fine and wondrous to do. And I guess I went into it, wanting to write something for our child that wasn't born yet.

44:10So I was like, let me write this for whoever this is. And so it came out in that innocence way. And I felt good about it, and then I enjoyed the movie, The Tone of the Movie, which I would have never leaned it like that. You know? But I really enjoyed it. I'm surprised with the choices made when you saw them. Yeah, and that is the beauty, right? Everybody's bringing their own color to the table and pressing in a different way. And in my head, when I was writing it, it had a more of a classicism and more of emotion. And then when it was made, it had this really colorful, colorful buoyancy to it, which is absolutely lovely.

44:51Do you think going to a Catholic school impacted your creative choices? For sure. In what way? I mean, just look, I didn't knock at the cabin as a kind of biblical story and servant, four years on the Apple thing. Number one show is about like angels. And you know, it's there. The mythology that I went to school with is the one of the the mythologies I use as genre. There's ghosts and then there's aliens and superheroes and there's religion. Are there ghosts?

45:34What do you think? I'll answer after a bike. What do you think? I'm really curious about you. I think yes. Do you think they're aliens? I definitely do. That's just mathematically impossible. That they're full. Does ESP exist? Pretty close. Probably pretty close. Can we become invisible?

45:57You mean in the way that it's funny you say that because I'm just thought of a new movie idea. If you were, yeah, is there a way that you can forget things that I do and say even though we're right here and I'm kind of making that happen. I think so and it's probably some movement of that's not being present or something. And we love a tape. I love to believe that. I was that kid that just kept on looking at the cop or the pencil and says, I can make it move, I can make it move. And I swear today I still look at it and I go, I think I can make it move. That's called psychokinesis. Yes, yes. But it hasn't happened yet.

46:41What percentage of the ideas that you have come to fruition? A high percentage, you know. Every film idea that I've had since I was, since puberty, has been either made or been offered to be made. And so I don't really develop like that. You know, I have a lot of ideas. They're in like notebooks, but they're just literally like a one line, a one line like that. And they'll speak to me at the right time or not. But, you know, like, for example, like, it's just, I'm committed to it. I'm fully committed. And so the tornado of effort and energy that I'm going to now bring, and I'm going to, by sheer will, make a movie exist in the universe, no matter what.

47:29You know, I'm able to turn it on in that way to just bring it to, you know, manifesting, manifest it, no matter what. Can you work on more than one project at the same time? Not directing. Not directing. Not two movies, let's say. I've done the TV show in a movie at the same time when I'm doing like one like small episode, but I didn't write that episode. So it's a different part of me a little bit that does that, you know. It was really interesting working on continuation of someone else's idea like in a TV show because you know sometimes you know, art allows you to be more honest about yourself because you're not being you.

48:10And so I can write a male character that has flaws that I'm like, oh, he has those flaws, but really I have those flaws. And or she, who's a proxy for me, you know, it feels this way about the world. Oh, that's so, that's so poignant she does. Well, that's me that feels that way, but I can't be that honest even with myself about it. It's a beautiful aspect of it. And sometimes I feel like even when when I trick myself into going, once this is not mine, like if you had to me, hey, help me with that. And then I start coming up. Does you getting a part of me that's not protective or tight? And so I'm coming from like a very free, loving space.

48:48And then if I go, and sometimes I'll trick myself and even the movie that I'm writing right now, in fact, the last two, I've tricked myself into going, oh, that's for someone else. Because I genuinely thought I was just gonna have this idea that someone else was gonna do it. and I produced it. Will you allow things to happen that you wouldn't allow to happen if you're protecting it for yourself? Probably. Yeah, I was gonna say some, and I couldn't form one of them about to say, but maybe you can connect to dots, was, you know, I know in like Juilliard and things they have this class where you wear masks and then you perform and then you immediately take on this other thing, you know, and maybe it's a version of that that I'm wearing someone else's mask.

49:32So I'm free. I'm not me. So I'm free. And then then you're doing something that feels really great And you want to continue it and now it's you have to take off the mask to continue it. What do you think your best at? Seeing talent and others. I love it. I love them so inspired by it, you know, and that could be anything. That could be of course it can be the the artist. the singer, the costume designer, whatever, but it could also be the waiter and going, wow, you know, the invention that is you is amazing. And in this moment, when you're having a, you are, your light is shining. And this is incredible when you're teaching all of us and guiding us in that way.

50:18But I do, I mean, I'm so endlessly inspired by everything. And so, that, you know, seeing, like, if you're going just in the movies, you know, seeing a movie and saying, my gosh, the photography, or who did the costumes on that? And there's a, oh, is this lady who lives in Bulgaria? And she, I have to work with her. So you build the best team because you recognize, regardless of the context that it's coming from, you can say, whoever did that, they're really good. Yeah, having the humility to know that It's not a static position of you are good, you are bad, you are connected, you're not. When I meet an actor, you know, who has an incredible, or she has an incredible body of work, the meeting the person is really to say, where are you today?

51:08That's it. You know, obviously you've done these beautiful inspired things with the universe, but are where are you today? The place where you are today as human beings and where I am is that together going to make us make this beautiful, fictional creature.

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53:03How difficult is it working with actors? I love it. Especially the way I make movies is unusual in that it's very, in theory one, could from a far away say, it's so prescriptive. You tell me what it is. How do you do it? So I write the thing and that's the words we're saying. No ad libbing. Yeah, I mean, it's very, very rare to do that. The reason I didn't write, um, there was a reason. So don't say um, you know, it's a painting of colors. And then from there, it's the director and inside of me and the storyboard artist, we draw every single shot out and that's what we're shooting. And so that sounds very limiting.

53:49And why would you say, why aren't you being Well, do you know what the film is going to look like before you shoot it? I mean, identical. Really? Yeah. Like an animated movie. Wow. Yeah, you could come and I could show you each movie and it's like an animated, like a graphic novel, you could watch it. And then so you go, why I said from a distance that sounds incredibly restrictive and prohibitive. And yet, with that honest and months and months of painting those things, the actors come And first of all, they already know that. It's already, they've heard me, I've done it so many times. And then they say, okay, this is the way we're doing this particular dance, okay?

54:27And then I come in and then they realize, wow, it's infinite the way you can play it. Based on these factors, that the camera is moving on this line because it represents your anger. So if you don't get angry, the camera's not going to move. And so you have to choose it. And the pace of the way the camera's moving towards you who's predicated on how fast and how angry you get. And that's why I'm gonna tell the operator, you're not listening, because you just did a move that was even, and that's not what the character did, that's not what the actor did. The actor did this kind of sinus move of like, holding back holding back, holding back, and then burst, but you didn't do that.

55:03So stare at her eyes, you know, and then they get, they go, oh my God. And that was thought of three months ago, you know, and they get it as that, that it's a three -dimensional medium, and that again the choices of how to play are infinite, you know, and then that being held by thought, not capriciousness or restriction for restrictions sake. It wasn't it was in spot it was an inspired kind of this is the visual script for the the words and now we're going to to add life to it. This is the frame of the painting now fill it with with and the the messier and more real great. So like if I'm pushing and then she, the actress, you know, get angry and her head goes out for a second and comes in.

55:47Great. You know, great. Just it's that frame is just because when we see a painting, we take it and the frame is also critical to our emotion about the painting. When did you first start working that way? That was six cents. Yeah. And that came from a thesis of watching one of the scenes in my movie at Mira Max and going, wow, that's the only scene that works. Why is that? And then breaking down, oh, that's what I did in that scene. Huh. That's what the camera did. Interesting. Oh, wow. That's also in... Psycho. Oh, that's also in... And pick whatever movie. ET. It's also in... Yeah. And you're going, huh, this principle of the art form of the visual, you know, because it's all art forms together.

56:39So honoring it, and I say that we cannot defer to one art form only, even that art form is acting. That's one part of it. It's in a dance with everything else. It is also dance. So the blocking is so critical. It is poetry. So the words that um is so important. And it's light, painting with light, you know? It's costumes. You know, we keep going. It's all art forms together. So critical. Tell me the whole process. From the tiny of the script. So I have this script, let's say, you know, and then the next person is a storyboard artist who then comes and we spend about three months storyboarding.

57:19And during that time, that's when you're essentially making the movie. Yes. In my head. Yes. and we're also at that time, if it's location dependent, and oftentimes it is, you can draw from finding the locations to enhance that, the visuals of that. Typically, relocations or sets? If I can't find it, then we make it. And you'll see, we defer to relocation if you can. I don't know if I'd say that. Okay. I don't know if I'd say that. For example, if you look at signs or succents or ombreck, well, these were all, everything was built. So, you know, built the train, you know. And it's because I see the camera doing this and this and this and this and turning to the left.

58:05Well, there is no bedroom to the left. Well, we're going to make a bedroom to the left. And it's a part of the art form. So like, if you see another person who does that would be like, you know, like in parasite, you know, when the table is where the table is, if you've seen parasite. I'm not. Absolutely incredible, absolutely incredible movie. And you know, there's a stairs and a door that's critical in the kitchen and it's right at the end of the table and there's stairs that go down. You're not gonna find that house. So he built it and why is it so critical is where all the shots that he came up and how he saw it and that creates a specificity of audience experience because they know without knowing, oh my God, the tables here and the thing here and it creates this beautiful composition and this man's coming up in his head first and his eyes and then you go, wow, it's possible to find that.

58:56You know, but I built it. It'd be built a lot of it. And even when I have a location like with the visit, because it was super low budget and all, I rented a house for a year. So where were we gonna shoot it? And so I just sat in the house and I had to move my brain around a bit to make it work in the same way, but then I made each shot. Did you know the house before you storyboarded it? No, in that case, because I knew I had to find the house first. And because I didn't have the money to build this house. So that was the first movie that I funded myself. So I was like, I guess got to find a house and we just need to be able to rent it so we can shoot and reshoot and all that stuff.

59:37So then I just sat in this empty house and worked out all the shots. Okay, so the storyboard happens. Yeah. What happens next? And then you go by that point, you're overlapping into pre -production, which was then everyone starts coming. All the crew members start arriving. You've been casted? Yes, that would be en route during the story -biting process and then delvetailing into pre -production, kind of the casting kind of trickles through that period. Typically, how many main characters are there? It's really various. You know, like a movie like, old is so many people. It's a group, it's a collective experience.

1:00:12And the one I'm doing now has really two main characters. So it can vary dramatically. Okay, so what happens next? Then pre -production and all the crews come. And then it becomes very much almost like a military operation. There's all my assistant directors and everyone and every minute of the day is you know, Phil, you need to meet with the art department to decide this. You need to go to locations to do, to pick the, you know, the ice cream shop where the things happening, you got to go visit seven ice cream shots, or they're building you the bedroom downstairs, you need to go look at it every moment is covered.

1:00:48Okay, you got to meet the prop guy, you know, on and on, you know, and then you're going to go to costumes and then you're going to talk through, they want to walk through these characters today and boom, boom, boom, boom, like that, you know. And what happens after that? Next phase. And that builds to kind of the highest intensity till day one or shooting. And so that gets more and more and more intense. And during that latter part of pre -production as you're getting very close to shooting in those last two weeks, that's when rehearsals actors arrive. I see. And we rehearse and rehearse and talk about philosophy and try to get to know each other and in that trust way.

1:01:21Do you shoot the films in order or not necessarily? I try to, as much in order as humanly possible. It's not that you have to do it that way, but again, when you try to do something so precise, I'm not sure what her anger is yet in scene 47 until we've done scene 32 and you know I With her and I you know working through is her anger being presented as detachment We might decide that and mostly we probably get there in rehearsals But you might you might crystallize that realization in scene 32 Oh when she she shuts down when she gets really really angry and it's scary And so then in 47, when she runs in, it's either a break from that style of, and then you have to play that.

1:02:10Like, I'm gonna now, I'm gonna burst, you know, from being at this place. So it's so much more helpful to go in order for me, but it's not impossible. It's really impractical to do it that way. And then like say, there's three scenes here in the room that we're in. We can't keep coming in and out of your house to keep shooting it. So you try to shoot all three scenes, but I try as hard as I can to keep it for you guys. as incontinuity as possible. Do you ever consider in the writing phase the practicality of the shooting? I do. It's inherently because I love minimalism and I love containment. So I'm always anyway thinking that way and in simulation and you know, I'm long, zillion years ago, they had offered me a movie called Troy, which was made in this big, wonderful way.

1:03:01And but when they sent me the script and I was looking at it and I was like, okay, so we have the maybe I can have two guys fighting and there could be a wall behind them and a old wall and then the real battle with a thousand soldiers on the outside on the other side of the wall and you're only hearing it. And it's just between these two guys so we could do the battle like and you could glimpse it through like a little moment. Through like the wall, but that's it. That's really interesting. So that immediately my mind started going to the minimal version, the insinuitive version of a giant battle movie.

1:03:32Yeah. But I like that kind of, I believe in it. Is it intimacy or the personal nature of two big people on the screen instead of 50 people or 100 or 1000 people on the screen? My brain just does not work that way. So when all of these amazing artists like Cameron and Spielberg and all these guys that can they can see that big, wonderful, complicated thing. I just panic and you know I I'm so titillated by the idea of incompleteness I love that and so I'm just showing you a part of the painting. Yeah Have you ever considered directing theater or writing for theater? Definitely. Yeah I feel most of my movies could be plays and so I've really thought about it a lot about whether to just take six months or a year and go right to play and you know see how that feels to just rely on the blocking and the written word to do most of the storytelling.

1:04:37I mean you can use other aspects of course you know it is very innovative these days but fear is probably just stopping me. How would you describe your demeanor on the set? mixture of temperaments, I would say it moves from highly kind of concentrated and quiet and my wife or pop, I'd just say anxious, but do you feel anxious? I find the making of a movie matches my anxiety really well, becomes a superpower because is my mind can go to the next shots there. So you need to set up that whisper to the gaffer there, whisper that dude on, you know, saying, okay, we need to do this. Oh, this sweater is the, you know, I have an idea for the next thing, but the sweater she's wearing, but in my mind, it's buzzing and it can, I can use it to an advantage, whereas in regular life, you don't have to comment and say stop playing chess.

1:05:38Was on the set playing chess at 100 miles and I was great. I'm super efficacious. You know you bat pounding all that energy. So I'll say something like to you know the ADs everybody knows my thing Which is hey, you know we're gonna be ready to think the actors should be here when we're when we're ready as opposed to we're ready Call the actors that doesn't work like that and I'll explain to the actors why that's the case that they should be waiting on the hundred of us Not the hundred of us waiting on the one person and and I say you know, I'll use an example like Hey, let's say I say we're shots ready.

1:06:11Okay. We call that person and they come, they get off their phone in the trailer, they go to the bathroom, they walk over, come to the set, and let's say they do it really fast, five minutes. Yeah. Right? Five minutes. Okay, what's the problem? Five minutes. 12 shots a day, five minutes, one hour. I just lost one hour. In the end of the week, you lost five hours. In two weeks, you lost a day of shooting. But I didn't need that day. That day of shooting, you lost a day of shooting. So what? We're not doing that. You know? And so when I walked through, we cut, why were doing it? What hours do you work?

1:06:42Well, depends if it's outdoors or nighttime and things like that. But if normal, if it's a stage work, I try to do kind of, you know, we're shooting by, you know, seven or seven thirty. And then we can finish early. I do try to do 10 hours. What is early, 10 hour day? I try to do 10 hours. Recently, I've done it and outside the country. And we've done 10 hours straight where, you know, they're more used to doing, you eat while you stand. And then you finish and everybody goes home early. Yeah. But here we don't do that as much. You know, it's not known. that what countries have you worked in? We did last movie, we did in Canada, and then my daughter's movie we did in Ireland, and that was wonderful.

1:07:19And then we did a movie in the Dominican, called Old, and all of those we did, those kind of straight 10 hour days. You mentioned the first movie that you funded yourself. Tell me what led to that happening. Wow. How many movies did you made before that? Oof, I don't know, maybe that's 10, or something like that. You know, there was a period where I was thinking that the fear and the... getting the morsels from the system were indicators that I wasn't doing it, right? So, let me find a way to join the system because everyone is like, you know, tacitly saying, to do it the normal way, do it the normal way, go do it the normal way.

1:08:02And then there's so many rewards for doing it the normal way. And you know, you could just coast and do it. So I think there was a period of time where I joined the system, tried to join the system. And that was for the first time? No, it was in the middle period. Oh, okay. In this middle period. That first period was, it was a different era in filmmaking. It was a different time in the studio system because they really were making original movies. And they were, the system was geared towards that kind of, so there was a lot of us doing. Was that still a leftover from the revolution of the Raging Bull easy riders?

1:08:38Probably late 70s. Yeah, it still went through the 90s. Yeah, right till there and then it started to change The pen big -minded Yes, and that's what it was you need to write find the next great new story and new story new storyteller That was what the system was both for and then from there and right when the 2000 started till now it has become an addiction of being familiar. The framing is more important than the painting. And maybe that's the indicative of how fast things are going. And people need to feel okay, there must be a real, a wonderful reason, a healing reason that saying the second movie or the third movie makes you feel really okay good.

1:09:25I know what I'm going to get. I'm going to go in there. That wasn't the case, you know, prior to 2000s. You had your outliers, but generally speaking, it was fresh. Yeah, so that first group was still coming off of the kind of original blockbuster stuff that was really, really free in working. And then again, as I said, I think I was feeling this, hey, maybe you don't have to be as exposed and maybe it doesn't have to be this hard and maybe there's a way that you can be, you know, except because everybody's telling you that, just do it this way. Just join the system, do it that way. You know, I guess in music, it would be kind of just put that voice box thing on whatever it is that sound that everybody has.

1:10:12Just do it, that's what everybody, that's the sound of today. And you go, oh, maybe I'm being arrogant. And so I tried to join the system in that middle area. and I'm not good at it, and I don't know how to do it. And it's not about... It's also not why you started doing it. You didn't get into it for that. Yeah, I mean, that was a... Probably if you're being very honest, something around is probably more of a reward centered behavior, which is pathetic, you know, that I just want the rewards or the safety or the, you know, concomitant positive things that can happen by being in the system. But the beauty that came from that was, I wasn't happy at all.

1:10:58I wasn't good at it. And that brought clarity. And then as I told you, I get very ignited when people give up and they go, you know, he can't do that or he can't do that anymore or whatever it is. And they come up with a statement, I love it. So then I was like, you know, I used to think if I was an NBA player, would I have in my contract a closet says I'm allowed to play streetball? You know most they don't have they have the opposite which you're not allowed to do any of those sports, you know because we're paying for you. Yeah, so it might get hurt and that would impact them. Yes, so in this this kind of a metaphor, I was like, well let's go just go play streetball.

1:11:43So no one asked me to make a movie. In fact, I'm gonna make a movie that they say won't succeed. Everyone's gonna be their older child. And I'm gonna make it super funny and scary, which they said can't be done. It just can't. Those two things can't exist. It was the not having been connected to the illusion or connected to the system freed me to kind of do it differently. And I was so happy. And when we were making this before we sold it, before, you know, before everything, I was really happy making that movie to visit. And the one before that was a big studio picture? That's correct, yeah. And I didn't have really ultimately the say in that picture to make it what I want, but I want to be really clear that's a cop out.

1:12:34Because at any moment, I could have walked away. Right. And I didn't. But you're also not a quitter, so I understand. No, yes, but there are, you know, in today's, in today's vernacular, now with the way I am, as soon as I realized the situation is fraught with Artifests or an inability for us to do the kind of soul searching and conversation that you and I are having, I'm out. Yeah. So you decide to fund the movie yourself? Yeah. So I made this movie, you know, went totally off the grid, made this thing, went all my instincts on it, went everything about out it on paper, any algorithm of success would tell you this is not gonna work.

1:13:13And yet everything in me said it's gonna work. And I make it, and then I panic a little bit, and I say I need to sell this because I put a mortgage on the house and all the stuff. And so I show it to everyone in the industry, basically the buyer versions of the industry six weeks after I shoot it. It's a six week nothing. Like I just put slapped it together and show it to everybody because I just want them to give me the money and I'm safe and I'm not gonna be some e -true Hollywood story of, you know, what happened and now, you know. And they all passed. Everybody passes. And one company said, I'd love to see it when it's done, but they didn't buy it, right?

1:13:55But everybody else passes. So I fly home. I'm like, oh my God. Well, you think they passed because they don't like it or is there more to the story? It's so different. There's no precedent for it. They keep trying to use no context. No context. Yes, no context at all. Because it's not another one that was successful so they could point to well. It's just like that thing that worked impossible. Right. So they're on the and they have the context of what they believe is they've lost faith in me in the system. Yeah. In their right. So that's all context related. And it wasn't quite finished. So it's like a 65 % version of what it will ultimately be.

1:14:37So you either go, you either see the 65 % or you you go, no, it's really only 30%. You know, in your head, you've using all that context to crush it. So I come home and my daughter at that time, the youngest daughter and I used to have this thing with me here would do puzzles together. And that's what we did. We go in the dining room and take a take a thousand piece puzzle and dump it on the thing. And we dump it on the and so I got home. Cheeks up puzzle. Cheeks up puzzle. And she was there and I was completely like a little bit not in my, I was, you know, not here. And I'm walking through my house which I think we're going to sell, you know, and she doesn't know anything.

1:15:16You know, she's just a little kid. And so we sit down and we start to do the thing and I'm like, let's do it when we sit down and we're looking, looking, looking, looking for a piece. And we eventually find it and we're so excited. it takes 20 minutes to find this one piece, right? It's the beginning of the thing to make it match. And then I went, wow, you know, all I have to do is just trust that this painting is this is gonna make a picture. And I trust it, because it came out of a box that trusted it. And there is a piece there, just find the next piece. You don't have to even know how to do this whole thing.

1:15:48Just find the next puzzle piece. And I went, well, that's what I just gotta do. Yeah. Just find the next puzzle piece. So the next morning I went into the editing room and we just made one line better and one cut better. And I just spent my days doing one piece at a time, one puzzle piece at a time. And then soon, I forgot that there was a mortgage, and I forgot all the rejections and all this up. And I was just excited about the next piece, the next piece, the next piece. And I went, oh, how about if I do this? Oh, you know what? I could go back and shoot this and grab this. That'd be so fun.

1:16:20And then I just kept on going. And I forgot all about it. And then by the time I got months later, when I had done it hundreds and hundreds and the painting was done, I was like, let's go back to that person that said they wanted to see it again and let's show it to them in front of an audience. And we did and that was universal pictures and they bought it. And it was like seeing in front of the audience. They went through the roof. They was screaming and yelling and laughing and exactly what the thesis was, which is that the laughter would turn into screams. And then they would laugh at themselves for screaming and it was so outrageous and provocative.

1:16:56Rollercoaster arrived and then they would just forget to be quiet and they're all just vocal and it's like a rot like a roll Up and down and then the explosion and and that laughter and the clapping and all of that stuff and So it was joy. They could feel my play, you know And then you know that when and became like a huge success with that movie and then I went on and did many, many, many movies with universal. And here we are still, you know. Did you do them that way, were you at Fundham or they would? No, then I did have all of them funded, you know. So I funded all of them from then on. Great.

1:17:31Yeah. Did you at one point have a relationship with Blum House? What I ended up doing was showing Jason Blum the movie, the visit and saying, We finished Bill Veeck. Pretty much. Yeah. And saying, would you, could we take one of your slots? Yeah. And so I have that much more because even after I showed the movie, there was there's a resistance, right? Yeah. Because everyone's guessing. So they need things. So his imprimature was critical at that moment because they really believed in him. So that combination was like, all right, we'll give you that slot. And then we, together we went and took that slot.

1:18:06And then it was you're right, you know. So have you made more with him? I, we did another one after that together. Yeah, and hopefully we'll make more. Great. Yeah. What's the most interesting part of the process for you filmmaking? The most painful is the preview screenings when you're showing it to audiences. It's the most painful because you're what you're making and what they're seeing are not exact. So either the process of getting it that the thing I'm making and the thing they're seeing is this one and the same. And because it's a juxtapositional art form. So if I cut from you to, you know, it's the eyes and sign theory of cinema, like if I cut from you looking at the bowl, they're interpreting it you're hungry.

1:18:49But I didn't maybe not mean that. And so these unintentional connections, so what they're watching versus what I intended, we have to get that in sync is a process of like, you know, this feels like your soul a little bit, it's getting torn, but it's a beautiful thing to become one. How do you think being a father informed who you are? Oh, it's everything. I think I was a father even before I became a father. It's just in me. Like I love kids and kids really, I think are drawn to me. So like I'll be, we'll be somewhere and a little kid will come up to me and go to a grocery store. They come in a hugged them and, you know, they're our gurus.

1:19:31They're the ones that are teaching us. You know, we're teaching them about this stupid world that we're in, but they're really teaching us much, much more important things. Have you ever had a mystical experience? I mean, everything we've been talking about, my whole life, the whole thing, man, the whole thing. I mean, you know, you stare at posters of people and then they become your friends and partners when you're older and you know, you're just incredible. How do you say success has changed you? Hmm. Well, on the bat in a bad way, it has increased my anxieties or my, or the bad versions of my ambition.

1:20:18You know, there's good ambition, you know, and we need growth, but maybe that it's it's tweaking kind of greed or insecurities of winning in some way. Are you competitive? Yeah. But it should be aimed at yourself. Yeah. Tell me about the marketing part of the film. Do you get involved in the poster in the trailer in all of the things surrounding the film? Yeah. So I talked to young filmmakers about this, this question. and I say, in 2024, it wasn't that way, like when they put out five easy pieces or something, back in the day, they took a New York Times ad and a Los Angeles Times ad and that was it.

1:21:02And then everything else was, it's in playing at your local theater for one year and you eventually would tell me to go see it. That's how it was advertising was. But now it's as costly, a costlier than the movie and they have to sell something. And so what ends up happening is that the marketing of our minutes started telling you the story before we did. So the story has begun. So the story telling is started already. So you have to be a part of it. In my opinion, because if you're passive, then they could tell a different story than the one that you're making. And then you have a problem. So I'm very clear like when I'm making something, okay, this is going to be, they're going to tell this part of the story before they come into the movie theater.

1:21:47and then we're going to withhold this part of the story. And I have to make sure that I have enough for them to tell this part of the story because they spend a lot of money to get it in every theater in the world, in a global release. Now, when you're doing platform or any film, that's not necessarily a case. You can get closer to the five easy pieces thing, but not exactly. Do you make movies to be seen in the theater? I'll utter it only, yeah. Yeah. And how is the experience different? And seeing one of your movies in a theater with a group of people versus watching at home on a streaming service.

1:22:22There's so many differences of that, but the most important one, the primary one, let's put aside the kind of gratuitous things that at home you're watching while you're getting changed, you're doing your laundry or you're putting on your makeup and you're kind of half watching and put aside that, which is real and sad. But let's pretend you are watching it in an ideal form, you know, and your couch you don't talk You don't talk your own from it. You're watching it When you're watching something by yourself You are bringing only your world view to the table only your perspective of the world So you will see only those things that that reinforces and you'll be blind to the other things You know, you're gonna let's say for example the your fifth year of due watching twilight You're going to go, wait, come, come, uh -uh.

1:23:10Now if you're in a movie theater and it's full of all ages and you have everyone there and there's a group of teenage girls in the front of the theater that are laughing and gasping and the thing, you cannot help but feel what they're feeling. If you're connected like a quilt, so you become a larger version of yourself, something where we're all tied together. And I think a better version of ourselves. So she's reminding me that that's actually funny that scene. It wasn't something you make fun of. That was something that was funny. It was intended. Oh, that has wit for, and when you're commenting on what it's like to be a 15 year old girl or 16 year old.

1:23:49Oh, and then your gravitas, the geobranging at age 50, she's feeling that in the silence, in the way you're holding that look from the father or whatever it is. You're each teaching each other to see through each other's eyes in this tiny, important way. And that's beautiful. We expand. We get to be beyond our particular world view. It's such a beautiful art form, the collective experience together of a story. Can you imagine ever making a black and white film? Sure. Definitely. Minimalism is lovely. And to some extent, I could argue that it's the most powerful way to do it because it it really is in the language of incomplete.

1:24:33Yeah. And you're filling in everything. I love the idea of the language of the incomplete. I think it's beautiful, beautiful thing to think about. Because when you try to complete it, you're obviously going to fail. Yeah. It's not, it's much more complicated and beautiful than way we, I was going to define, even if it's a fictional thing, a creature or whatever it is, that's why, because the shark wasn't working in jaws, you got to do it in an incomplete way and thus it became much bigger and scarier. Oh, and the beauty of the incomplete is the audience gets to complete it themselves and the way we each completed is different.

1:25:09It's dispel for each of us. It's true for each of us. Yeah. If you could remake the entire movie system, how would it work differently if you were in charge of the whole system?

1:25:28Yeah, that's a tough one, man, because as I said, it's so much about giving you such a heavy frame that you already know the meal already before you've eaten it. And if you're eating a cheeseburger and you don't really rate the cheeseburger unless it's really extraordinary and then you kind of go, but if songs you got a cheeseburger, you're like, that was good. But if I said, you wasn't really good, was the bread great, was the cheese today? you'll be like, well, I was okay. You're like, well, actually, well, you don't even think like that. I'm sure you've heard that experiment they did with. They said, there's wine.

1:26:05It's a very expensive bottle of wine. How did you like it? And you drink it and it's like, tastes amazing. And then how's this one? This one's cheap. And they drink it. It's okay, you know? And then they're measuring the brain. And actually the receptors with that of taste are actually firing more with the expensive one because you've been framed that way. So in your experience of it, it did taste better. Yeah. It really did. It was really both. Yeah, it's really happening because you're experiencing in your head. So when we're framing so strongly for them that they're basically watching the movie or experiencing it before you've seen the movie, that's a different system than the one I'm trying to do, which is just trust me.

1:26:46Come to the movie theater. When I understand the struggle of it, I get it, but I wish the system was geared the opposite which is, you know, if you say, hey, you know, Rick, where do you want to go eat? You know, I did that. I texted you and I said, where should I go eat, you know? You gave me your answers of things, and some of them are, it's just great, go. Right? You didn't tell me with Italian food, like you, that's what I wish it was. The way you did it with me, you just said, food's great. I was in. You didn't even tell me what kind of food. No. And so, I love that. I wish we were oriented to that, you know, so I don't have to say Chinese food.

1:27:22I don't have to say burger. I don't have to say pizza. And you come and I can give you different things and a different capacity. I can give you something sweet to start. And you know, so you don't go, why am I, this doesn't, this is crazy. And you know, and that you're ready for the experience and then you're really present. And that's the way it really was before marketing became the primary driver of cinema. Are there any other directors who, when you see their name before the title of the movie, You have a real sense of what you're going to see besides you. I mean, sure, there's Quentin for sure, right?

1:27:57We all know Sanderson. Wes, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, and before that was a lot of them, but the color you're going to hear is such a strong accent that it's beautiful. You're coming for the accent. Can you imagine making a movie that was outside of your genre? Yeah, but I do feel like I have enough room in my genre that it's because it's a mashup of genres to begin with. It's already like it already began with a mashup of drama and scary movie. Like we already just started there. It was a mashup to begin with and it's important to scary. You know, for me, I would like more to define myself, you know, and the way I do see myself is more of a thriller filmmaker, which is basically a more muscular mystery, that that's where I am.

1:28:49And then everything else is on -immentation on that. But if you go to look, if I go somewhere and they're like, someone goes home a big fan and they're with their wife or whatever, and the wife says, oh, I don't watch scary movies. And I always go, is that what I do? And I go, huh. Because I know this lady would love almost every single one of them. But she has, I mean, a part of the store that's scary movies and that's that. So I'm a little bit fight that a bit because it's one dance move or, you know, in the whole dance, but it's not all of it. And we think of Hitchcock movies as thrillers, but we never think of him as metaphysical.

1:29:30So viewers tend to have this. They do have that. Otherworldly quality. Like this conversation we have is an outcropping of the same things that in the movie. You know, so you're right. There's that. I didn't even, I don't even say that when I was saying what is it that you do, but it is critical for me to make those. And I would love that lady to not say, I don't, I don't like scary movies. As opposed to, you know, you make me, you feel things and, you know, in a way of, you know, existential thoughts and because I can feel you struggling with them and you make characters that struggle with that and I struggle with that.

1:30:13You know, that lady would love that. But it's because I'm, you know, she thinks it's in the corner of the store where people get chopped up. Yeah, it's not so hard. Yeah, exactly. That's a fun. How do you think you're most misunderstood? I think we touched on it a bit, the whole scary thing because I think the most salient flavor is the one that they call it. So, you know, the subtler flavors are unimportant. The drama, the mystery, the philosophical, those quieter colors get dismissed a bit and then go, yeah, man, give me so much Tabasco sauce. I love it, you know. And so sometimes it makes me not want to do the Tabasco sauce.

1:30:57And it's interesting, the idea of turning up the psychological drama and turning down the Tabasco sauce, I'd want to see one of those. Yeah, but will the audience, because they were framed for the cheeseburger get pissed. But do you feel an obligation in that way that they have to get certain notes? Well, now you're getting to another part of it, which is I do feel a responsibility. There is a covenant to take that money. When they see my name, there's a relationship, a pre -existing relationship, a date that we've been on together and they expect a similar date. That doesn't need to be confining, but beautiful.

1:31:39And so how can you kind of do 80 % that and then 20 % something new or 70 and 30 or something like that without it being a complete like, hey, I didn't get the cheeseburger. Yeah. Who are your favorite filmmakers and what is it about each of them that put them on the list? Oh my gosh. I mean, it's endless, honestly. Really, it really just is endless, but just I'll take a few, but, you know, Kurosawa, because again, because of his formality, I just understand why he did everything he does. It's like, and not moving the camera, and the moving the camera, and his brilliance of blocking, and his trafficking in deep pathos, you know, amongst the plot, you know.

1:32:26And his characters are tortured, and I find them profound his precision of thought. What's your favorite Chris Alpham? Jesus, just again. It's so good. There's so many. I have posters up of Rochomon in my office and high and low in my office. So both of those are in my office. So they're obviously in the Pantheon list too. A Kuru was also one that popped into my head. Incredible. Yeah. How did you learn your craft? imitation and then the kind of failure of imitation And why that leaves you empty and what what is that and then in that space you start to hear yourself What's the fox catcher story?

1:33:17I think you're referencing the village might my movie the village Is that what it is? Well, no, but you're referencing the property near our house called Foxcatcher. And so, Do you pump? Yes. I would pass it every day, and this property was, you know, their family's property was in there, all these acres, and they had their own hospital, and insane asylum, and inside the gates. Yes, yes, and they, you know, there's a famous story of someone getting murdered in there and, you know, all this stuff. And so it was just full of wonder for me. as I was passing this rusted fence covered in Ivy. And now it's a development that's gone.

1:33:57And you know, there's all these mcmansions there and all that stuff. But back in those days, it was really conjure imagination in me. And I think the village, maybe the village came from that fence. Just driving by. Mm -hmm. Have you worked much with CGI? Not compared to most. You know, if I can do it in camera, we try to do it in camera. It's just so hard, right? To, again, in that idea of incompleteness, it's so hard to complete something. I found that it's best when you add obscurity to the CGI. So like, you know, so if you have a dinosaur or whatever, you should have it raining and it should be at night and it should be, there should be other things that to create the incompleteness again.

1:34:40Yeah, tell me about your spiritual life. I would say right now I'm teetering on a place of wanting to change what it is that I think I am moment to moment that I'm a group of thoughts that I call myself that those most of those like all of us, like most of us, is passively, has been passively chosen. And I've had the wonderful ability to learn how to not do that when I'm creating. So it's been a respite from this burden of the passive thoughts that have become who I am. And by that means, you know, this is what you think when you're wearing your stuck in traffic. This is what you think when you find out someone stole money from you.

1:35:35This is what you think when someone beautiful stands in front of you. those thoughts. And you can choose to think new thoughts. You can. You have to be aware, because autopilot happens instantaneously. And so I'm trying now, been thinking for the last, I would say six weeks now, and I feel it changing. Like, you know, the normal version of me may not get everything here that we're doing right now. I would say all these things I've always been okay being honest with you know what I'm asked, but to be here and feel this kind of fabric here and see you and take this with me forever is the hope and convey something of reassurance to you of another another person on the planet that is grateful and happy.

1:36:31Hopefully there's something that comes across and probably not succeeding, but I want that to be the case from here when you're going, what is it you want now? You know, I want with all the scars and all the mistakes and everything I want to go, those were all beautiful lessons to be someone better, you know, and by better I just mean happier, you know? And so I'm trying to concentrate on my thoughts. And when you do that, everything seems wondrous. What do you think happened six or so weeks ago that started this. How did you get on that? It's probably, you know, you hear the right thing. It was from a podcast ironically enough.

1:37:11You know, you have to hear the right thing at the right time and it goes click. And then you go down, not go down, you go up a rabbit hole. Yeah. Do you remember what it was that you heard? I'm sorry, I forgot the name whose podcast was on, but it was this Dr. Joe dispensable was talking about thoughts. Yeah. And so I'd never heard him before. And then it just went click the idea when he said today we will have 90 % The identical thoughts that we had yesterday And I went oh my god. We're all in the matrix. We're in our own matrix. We are And I was like well, I don't want to have the same thoughts And then the thought I do believe that I've always felt like you know, whatever you do wherever you are Whatever your vibration is you can bring that because I don't think the universe that energy or it was science The quantum physics of it all says good or bad, you know, I think, you know, so if I'm not feeling great There's a lot more not feeling great than come my way, you know If I feel people will betray me.

1:38:13Oh my gosh. There's so many more people coming to betray me, you know And so it's like if we can resonate in a place of that will come back as well How much time do you spend in nature? We live on a beautiful Property that in the reason that I picked that property because it is one of those old estates that that doesn't exist anymore. And thinking of spending the rest of my life there and having not only did we raise our kids there, but soon hopefully grandkids that are walking with them and maybe maybe if I'm lucky like my dad, see my great -grandkids on that property. And amazing, it would be amazing.

1:38:52Just absolutely amazing. So, and it's wondrous, you know, the trees that we planted and they're all grown. It's just absolutely amazing. I want to spend more and more time. Every year I spend more time outside. Tell me about your movie watching in habits. It's sacred. Nothing's casual at the house, which obviously really is a bummer for my wife and kids. So it's just too meaningful. The images that come into my head. And I'll force myself to sit with them to just be a part of their lives for a few minutes, but it's literally like getting burned. So when I'm taking it in, it can be anything. I don't have like, it can be a rom -com.

1:39:36It really can't, it just has to be exquisite, you know? And in that, what it is, it has to be, you know, beautiful in and of itself. It's version of what it is. And so, so it's not, when you see my movie collection, it's not a strawberry. You have the Bergmins and all that stuff, but you do have everything. Because it's, you know, when I was the chair of the Berlin Film Festival, I said to the jurors, you know, what did they say? What are the criteria? How do we do this? And I said, we're not judging John Ra. So whoever achieved what they set out to do at the highest level, whoever did it the best, that two wins, you know?

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