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Podcast Episode Summary: Mike White on Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin
Podcast Information
- Podcast Title: Tetragrammaton
- Host: Rick Rubin
- Episode Title: Mike White
- Episode Description: Mike White, writer, director, producer, and actor known for *The White Lotus* and other acclaimed works, discusses his creative journey, spiritual beliefs, and insights into storytelling.
Key Themes and Discussions
Mike White's Background
- Career Overview:
- Known for *The White Lotus*, which has received significant acclaim and numerous awards.
- Early work included writing for shows like *Dawson's Creek* and *Freaks and Geeks*.
- Transitioned into film with notable works including *School of Rock* and *Nacho Libre*.
Spiritual Exploration
- Past Lives and Spirituality:
- Discusses a transformative experience related to past lives, influenced by Shirley MacLaine.
- Explores themes of death, loss, and the philosophical implications of endings in storytelling.
- Views storytelling as a cathartic exploration of existence and the human experience.
Writing and Creativity
- Character-Centric Writing:
- Emphasizes the importance of character development in storytelling.
- Describes the process of creating characters as intertwining with philosophical concepts.
- Believes in the significance of satisfying conclusions in narratives.
- Writing Process:
- White describes his writing method as instinctual, often preferring to allow ideas to gestate before finalizing them.
- He expresses a preference for writing as a solitary act, often keeping early drafts private.
- The White Lotus:
- Discusses the unique format of *The White Lotus*, where each season spans a week and focuses on character interactions.
- Credits the show's success to timing and its observational nature, presenting character-driven narratives over plot-heavy storytelling.
Directing and Collaboration
- Directing Experience:
- Shares insights on directing, noting that he often feels insecure about technical aspects but trusts his vision as a writer.
- Highlights the collaborative nature of filmmaking and the importance of allowing actors to bring their interpretations to characters.
- Learning from Others:
- Reflects on the lessons learned from other writers and directors, particularly Judd Apatow.
- Discusses the balance between maintaining authorial control and being open to collaboration and influence.
Personal Reflections
- Family Influence:
- Shares anecdotes about growing up in a religious household with a focus on seeing the goodness in people.
- Reflects on the impact of his parents’ beliefs on his creativity and worldview.
- Navigating Fame and Success:
- Talks about the pressure and expectations that come with success in Hollywood.
- Expresses a desire to remain connected to the joy of creativity without becoming overly defensive about his work.
Miscellaneous Insights
- Film and Television Preferences:
- Discusses the evolution of his tastes in media over time and the challenges of watching films as he ages.
- Expresses a fondness for classic disaster movies which influenced his storytelling sensibilities.
Key Takeaways
- Endings Matter: The way a story culminates has profound effects on the audience’s emotional response and reflects life’s inherent uncertainties.
- Character as a Vehicle: Characters serve as essential tools to explore deeper philosophical questions and human experiences.
- Collaboration is Crucial: Successful filmmaking relies on understanding and enhancing the contributions of a diverse team of creatives.
- Embrace Uncertainty: In creativity and life, embracing uncertainty allows for growth and exploration beyond rigid constructs.
Conclusion Mike White's conversation with Rick Rubin delves into the intricacies of storytelling, the role of spirituality in creativity, and the personal influences that shape an artist's work. The episode offers a thoughtful glimpse into the mind of a creator navigating success while staying true to his artistic vision.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOExploring Past Lives and Their Impact
0:00 to 1:24
Discussion about past lives and their potential influence on personal experiences.
The Journey of Life and Death
1:24 to 2:35
Reflections on the nature of death and the emotional implications of loss.
“I mean, whether you believe that or not, it's just like as a storyteller, it makes sense that like, you know, you're always trying to figure out what is the satisfying ending for your story?”
Meeting Shirley MacLaine and Her Influence
2:35 to 4:01
Insights into the author's encounters with Shirley MacLaine and her metaphysical beliefs.
“I mean, yeah, I've, I've had a pretty good run as far as in general, not had like major tragedies.”
Experiencing the Light Institute
4:01 to 6:25
Describing the unusual environment and experiences at the Light Institute in New Mexico.
“and it like literally looks like a janky B-movie, like sci-fi movie from the like 60s or something.”
The Impact of Past Life Exploration
6:25 to 7:42
A look into how exploring past lives can lead to personal growth and emotional release.
“And you're coming into the world in this form, but this is not you.”
Artistic Connections and Empathy
7:42 to 9:03
Discussion on how art influences emotions and creates connections with shared experiences.
“They have like these first person accounts of like being in the American Revolution and like the fight and they put on the five drums and they put the like the music.”
Childhood Influences on Artistic Development
9:03 to 10:34
A look back at childhood experiences that shaped artistic interests and practices.
The Influence of a Religious Upbringing
10:34 to 11:40
Examining how a religious background affected perceptions of art and storytelling.
“I like disaster movies, and I liked flipping.”
Mike White's Early Influences
14:04 to 16:14
Explore Mike White's childhood reading habits and family dynamics.
“They were in this world of like Christian, you know, and so like I was like, and for, I don't know why, but like I had got a subscription to The New Yorker.”
The Unique Appeal of White Lotus
16:14 to 18:49
Discover what sets 'White Lotus' apart from other TV shows.
“What do you think makes White Lotus different than other TV shows?”
Show all 35 chapters
Creative Freedom and Travel in Filmmaking
18:49 to 24:19
Learn about the creative process behind 'White Lotus' and its travel elements.
“It might have to do with just how it fits in the world in this moment in time.”
Navigating Directing and Writing
28:23 to 29:25
Mike White discusses the challenges of directing versus writing.
“Then it's like you're just kind of working to figure out how to manipulate the director and doing it the way you want.”
Existential Creativity
29:25 to 30:25
Mike reflects on creativity as a reaction to external pressures.
“And it's also annoying to other people and annoying me.”
The Burden of Artistic Responsibility
30:25 to 31:16
Exploration of the emotional weight artists feel in their roles.
“It's not like you get to dictate what anyone else thinks about anything.”
Confidence and Artist Collaboration
31:16 to 32:29
Discussion on the confidence artists need and the roles they play.
“But it's just, like, at some point I was just like, I'd like to just fuck off.”
Intimacy in Artistic Relationships
32:29 to 33:34
Exploring how deep artistic partnerships can shape personal identities.
“Well, it's just like, well, yeah, knowing which people are sensitive and you need to be gentle here, which people need to be challenged.”
The Power of Seeing Artists
33:34 to 34:29
Mike discusses the psychological aspect of recognizing artists' potential.
“They want to be seen, and you're telling them that you see them.”
The Emotional Cost of Creativity
34:29 to 35:50
Mike shares his experiences of emotional stress in creative roles.
“Yeah, a lot of it is psychological and helping someone unlock themselves.”
Challenges in Television Production
35:50 to 37:22
Mike recounts his struggles with network expectations in TV.
“So it's almost like, I won't do this anymore.”
The Breakdown and Its Consequences
37:22 to 40:03
A candid discussion about Mike's mental health challenges during production.
“So they were having an identity crisis in there.”
Mike White's Early Performances
42:58 to 44:13
Mike White discusses his transition from writing to acting and his motivations.
“What's the first time you ever performed in anything?”
Exploring Reality Shows
44:13 to 45:25
Mike shares his thoughts on reality shows and the experience of competition.
“And I like to feel like I'm doing something new.”
Navigating Survivor's Challenges
45:25 to 46:21
Mike reflects on the difficulties of being on Survivor and the appeal of competition.
“It's hard to explain to somebody who doesn't really even see any of the pleasure of it.”
The 50th Anniversary of Survivor
46:21 to 48:46
Mike discusses his recent return to Survivor and the changes in contestant dynamics.
“and like you go all balls to the wall, and that's fun.”
The Nature of Competition
48:46 to 50:06
Mike analyzes the complexities and appeal of competition in reality shows.
“You're like going through all these things.”
Writing Process Insights
50:06 to 52:49
Mike shares his creative process and approach to writing screenplays.
“And it's really about getting other people to do what you want them to do.”
Influences on Storytelling
52:49 to 56:01
Mike discusses how films and philosophical concepts shape his storytelling.
“And that part is the funnest part to me, honestly, is the gestating.”
Exploring Influential Films
56:01 to 57:52
Discussing how early films like The Poseidon Adventure shaped storytelling interests.
“And so like this idea of like you don't know who's going to live and who's going to die.”
Theatrical vs. Television Writing
59:26 to 1:01:28
Differences in writing approaches between theater and television.
“How is writing a theatrical play different than writing for television?”
Creative Process and Control
1:01:29 to 1:04:06
Discussing creative breakthroughs and the balance of control in collaboration.
“He goes through the process like a studio almost where he watches what people like and so he's canvassing.”
Influences of Family Background
1:04:07 to 1:06:38
Exploring how his parents' backgrounds shaped his worldview and creativity.
“And it's like, I was raised by these dreamers who lived in the dreamlands.”
Character Development Insights
1:06:39 to 1:09:39
Insights on character creation and the importance of dynamic interactions.
“What's essential for a character to exist?”
The Essence of Art and Spirituality
1:11:57 to 1:16:18
Discusses the connection between art, spirituality, and personal beliefs in the creative process.
“I mean, I'm sure it's the same with you.”
Reflections on Childhood and Introspection
1:16:18 to 1:20:04
Shares memories of growing up in Pasadena and the value of introspection amidst distractions.
Exploring Tetragrammaton Concepts
1:20:04 to 1:22:14
Delves into the various topics and realms covered by Tetragrammaton.
“And, but yeah, I just think, God, had I been born now, how many things I wouldn't have come to or done or, I don't know.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:23I did have like my past lives. this whole past life thing where they you do your past life it's Shirley McLean is a friend of mine she was like she made me go to New Mexico and I did this for like five days and like the past lives are all about like so much of it is about how you died like how each at least this is what this one thing was like and how much how you end it has to do with what you're still dealing with than that like it like the end is important and like and in fact like in this this i mean i'm not i'm not co-signing on this but i but this was just the philosophy was that like you know they use light some kind of like color therapy or whatever so that like you remember the death and then like you think of a color and then the color somehow heals or like somehow it provides some kind of catharsis so that then that death is sort of lifted off of you so you're not like like still dealing with the fallout from the death or whatever.
1:24So it's just, yeah. I mean, whether you believe that or not, it's just like as a storyteller, it makes sense that like, you know, you're always trying to figure out what is the satisfying ending for your story? Like, what is the conclusion? And you think about life as this journey to death. I want for my friends and I want for my family and I want for myself a cushy, like a soft landing. I don't want to, you know, it's like as you get older and you experience more people dying, there's very few deaths that aren't kind of grim. Or, you know, you go through it. The process of dying is also, it's about loss.
2:06You lose things along the way. I mean, especially when you're young and healthy, you look at that and be like, oh my God, this is like so depressing. Do you know what I mean? Because you see people lose their hearing, their ability to like control their bowels of all these things that are some sort of humiliation but i guess but maybe as you actually experience those things maybe that's a part of letting go of this you know like it's like getting used to the idea of losing someone they you slowly lose them you know you can run from those bad feelings but they will find you have you had any people close do you pass?
2:41I mean, yeah, I've, I've had a pretty good run as far as in general, not had like major tragedies. My parents are still alive. I've had friends that have in the last couple of years, but I haven't been knocked on my knees over something. Like how did you meet Shirley McClain? Shirley McClain I met at a party and like, I was just, you know, like I was a fan. So I I started talking to her and then like she was always like trying to get me to do. I was always interested because I knew she, you know, I knew she was into metaphysical stuff. So I was always like trying to pick her brain books. Yeah.
3:19She was like out, you know, out on a limb. And I mean, she is like next level as far as just like somebody who's known, you know, beyond just like as a movie star, like, you know, known all these big characters over all these decades. But like she also knew like spiritual leaders and political leaders. I mean, she was very, like, she had, like, tentacles into all of these different worlds and was, like, you know, she's a primary source. So she's a trip. So anyway, like, I would always bug her about it. She'd be like, I'm not talking about this anymore. You're going to have to get your past lives done.
3:50And so, like, she set it all up. But, yeah, so she's. Tell me how it started. You went to a place to do this? Yeah, she was, like. So in Galisteo, New Mexico, there's this place called the Light. I don't even know if it still exists, but there's a place called the Light Institute. and it like literally looks like a janky B-movie, like sci-fi movie from the like 60s or something. Like the buildings are all like totally kook and like, and everybody looks, you know, like the woman who did it, she has like shock white hair and blue eyes. I mean, and like, I got there and they were like, oh yeah, you know, they're talking about, they all have seen extraterrestrials.
4:26She's like, you know, it used to be exciting. Now I just see them and I have to leave them alone. I don't care. You know, it's like, I'm just not that guy. I'm curious, but I'm not, I'm, I'm a skeptic or whatever. And then they put me in this like circular room with all these animal pelts and like bongo drums. And like, it was super hot. And I had partied the night before I had come to Galstia. I was like, I think I was coming off of like an Adderall bit. I don't know what. So like I was in this thing and I was like, it was like I was being cooked in a tangene or something. Like I was so hot. Was it a sweat lodge?
4:59Well, I was just waiting to go in there, but it was just hot outside and I was in this thing and I was just like, I was probably dehydrated or whatever. By the time I got in there and was on the bed, I was like, I was like the perfect way to go because I was just so open and brain like, you know, like brain rot anyway. So I was just like ready to go. like the first time that I was with this woman, it wasn't about past lives. It was just about memories of this life where she would say, connect with certain parts of yourself. And I had never done anything like that, where I was thinking about memories that I hadn't had, you know, like I really hadn't unpacked since I was a little kid and crying and not in a sad, just like having this like really intense relationship to the child self.
5:41And I was like, I came out of it. I was like, Like, this is like, it was so cathartic. And I was like completely sobbing. And like, and so then I signed up to do the five days. So I like just did that one little session. And then I was like, okay, I'm in it. And then I went back and I was like, this is like, it was like a second date. And you're like, why did I think that first date was so good? And I was like, how am I going to get through this? Like, I was just, it was so awkward. And then, but it was actually really formative in some way. And I came home and like, if you go to my house now, there's paintings of all the different past lives.
6:11I had this artist do the lives. And so there's all of these different lives done in the stuff. So like if it's a Japanese life, it's like done in these kind of Japanese prints. And it's like, and so like, yeah, I just, I love, I don't, whether I believe in past lives or not, I love the idea of not being too attached to your form, that you are this, you're part of this protean creation. And you're coming into the world in this form, but this is not you. And that you've been all these other forms. You've been a Cuban woman or you've been a Chinese, you know, leader or, you know what I mean? And so that this self that you have is not intrinsic to yourself.
6:53You know what I mean? It's a Buddhist kind of or whatever. It's like, you know, it's an Eastern sort of philosophy. And I think that that is, whether it's true, it's helpful. And I think it's also a way to experience others, to see them in this, you know, that they are you. And then these elements that feel like they're, you know, these inherited elements that we find to be othering or whatever. That really that's just, it's just yourself in a different form. Do you feel changed by that experience? Yeah. I don't know if it changed me in the sense of like, I am, you know, I was a believer or something, but I felt like it's a powerful analogy that I still like draw on.
7:41You know, sometimes like I'll watch some Ken Burns documentary and then they'll have the old, like I was watching the American Revolution. They have like these first person accounts of like being in the American Revolution and like the fight and they put on the five drums and they put the like the music. And there's moments where I'm like, I don't know whether it's just the artistry or just like, I'm just like, I'm like, I am there. Like, I am also in like this sense of like the universality of experience and that you can transcend time. You can transcend the self that like those things are accessible in some way.
8:12And that as you go into this dream state at night, every night, it's like you're you're creating new selves and you're connecting with old selves. And, you know, it's like, again, it's like, do I believe it? like in the literally because i would go to shirley mccain and be like you know some of it i feel like is is really uncanny and some of it i feel like i'm making up she's like it happened to you she's like a very like it's like a fundamentalist christian but like she's like a fundamentalist like you know and i am not a fundamentalist but like i do think there's just something about it that is there's some things that are just inexplicable where you just have these like emotional i'm sure you've had i mean you're as an artist you know like that's part of what art is is like vibing into something that you didn't think you'd ever vibe into and you're suddenly dropped down into some other person's thing and you're like this feels so familiar you know what i mean do you have that from art too like if you watch a movie do you see yourself in a movie or no it's hard as i i don't know how you feel about like as i get older i i don't really like to watch things as much as I used to when I was a kid I just consumed everything and like it really is hard for me to go see anything anymore or or like try to it's like I I feel often trapped inside art or like it feels claustrophobic in certain kinds of experiences like sometimes I'll get a like there'll be some amazing movie or something and I'll just feel really lit up yeah but often you know it's like often I don't even give it a chance because I'm just like I it's I don't know it's I feel like I I like creating if it's a friend something I want to be a part of that but like I don't know I'm just it's like I just feel like I've given so much time to watching things that I feel like I don't you know I did it I think when I was young to try to learn and steal and like you know what I mean like and I was I of course obviously that's why I chose it I was completely engaged and and the spark was i i was i was really into seeing the stuff but like i've gotten to be more it's like i just don't want to give it more time than i want to because it's just there's so much shit what are the kind of things that you watched as a kid well it's funny because i was from a religious household and so like a lot of things that we couldn't we didn't really watched so like there were a couple movies that were taped off tv like i think that like i can name them like the poseidon adventure fiddler on the roof freaking i don't know like probably oliver you know like some and i would just watch them like 500 times like i would reenact the poseidon adventure in my backyard like on the reg whether i had friends or by myself like i I remember I did a redo of Airport 77 at my second grade on the bleachers and got everybody to be one of the dead people in Airport 77.
11:13So there was just a couple. I don't know. I like disaster movies, and I liked flipping. I guess certain musicals like Fiddler on the Roof or something. Fiddler on the Roof still is the best movie ever. I loved Fiddler on the Roof for some reason. And then how would you say your taste developed over time? Well, so my, so yeah, my, my family was religious and, and, but my dad was a professor at a seminary of audiovisuals. So he was actually, he, and he wrote like movie criticism for Christianity today. So it was like, he would watch movies, but always through this sort of theological Christian lens.
11:52would he talk about it with you yeah so like there was this this idea of using movies as a way to talk about ethics and talk about the value system of a movie or the the the hero's journey through a sort of christian lens which i think has definitely impact obviously impacted me but then i also in second grade i had a teacher was sam shepherd the playwright his mother was my second grade teacher so she was like and she was a cool lady and i was into her and she was really obviously proud of her son and so she so like when i was pretty young i started like reading sam shepherd plays and then i realized that that was a career that people had and then yeah i was just always a little then i started like writing little plays and i was just a little weird creative kid i remember i got the record of who's afraid i mean i was pretty young like who's afraid of virginia wolf and i would listen to it and follow along i just like the way the plays like you know it's funny how you're a kid little things just get have there's some like freud would say like a cathex or some kind of erotic charge not even like he would access it as an erotic thing but like something that would just really like just float your boat turn you on exactly i i really like just how the words would land on the page and how it was like this kind of like it was kind of like you know i guess as a musician where you see notes and you know you just like like to see how the music relates to the notes and like orchestrating that you know and it's like was it about the words on the page or was it about the performance of those words it's like it's a connection it's like i really liked to see the words on the page and then see how it like was translated into sound and how but yeah i guess even when i was a kid i used to walk around with like little note cards with just words i just loved words and so like there was just something about it was like you know it's like an incantation or like you're like it's like yeah there's something about putting words together did you write the cards yourself no they were like basically learning how to you know know words you know what i mean but i was just like really into the words and just i don't know it's just like and i when i was little i was ocd and had more like so every word had seven letters or any word you know just counting the letters i was just you know what i mean it was like it was like a kind of like a i was just a word word person it's cool yeah i mean i think there's just some people are yeah it's like it's just like music some people are really into music or like math you have numbers and would you read a lot in general yeah i was really into reading when i was a kid i was yeah i was big on reading and any particular fiction i like plays and i i liked i mean my parents were educated people and were very smart.
14:38They were in this world of like Christian, you know, and so like I was like, and for, I don't know why, but like I had got a subscription to The New Yorker. I started reading Paul Eaton Kael. I was just like, I was some classic, like weird precocious kid. And I was like, you know, it was boring up in the fucking foothills of Eaton Kaelian. And we, it was like, we, we roll on, like there weren't many kids around. We would like go on the freaking, what do you call it? Like we'd have like a wheelbarrow we'd go down the thing and like but then after that i'd be like okay so like i was just had this very like you know i it we had built out this sort of inner life of being interested in other things you know like i was so i so yeah i spent a lot of time reading and do you have brothers and sisters i have a sister yeah older younger she's older and she's a teacher now in the same area that i grew up in what was your relationship with her like i mean it's complicated i mean she's i I mean, she's adopted and I'm not.
15:40And we were just, we were very close in age, but very just different. We're just different. Was she adopted before you came or after? So my mom had like six miscarriages and then they adopted my sister. And then she got pregnant and had me and I was the only kid. I see. So my sister's great. She's awesome. But like, it was definitely like, it wasn't like she, we had overlapping interests or, You know, she wasn't like a, you know, we weren't concocting stuff together, really. How much older was she? Nine months. Oh, so very close. Yeah. Interesting. Let's talk about White Lotus a little bit. What do you think makes White Lotus different than other TV shows?
16:20That's a good question. I mean, I think one of the things that's different about White Lotus, and it's not necessarily the thing that is the reason why it's successful, or it's necessarily the reason why, I don't know, it's of interest, but it's definitely, I think, why it's something that I enjoy keep doing it, which is, like, because of the format, it's really just, like, following people over a week. There's something about that as a format that, like, it's like I wouldn't want to write something that's super plotty, you know, and at the same time, I don't know, There's something about just, like, because of the time element of it, it, like, leads to certain kinds of— It's, like, it's—in a way, it is, like, little plays, but because there's this, like, kind of conceit, there's this little hook, you know, that, like, keeps—and this sort of propulsive hook.
17:16Does a whole season take place in a week? Yeah. And when they would come out, would they come out one per week, or did they come out as a group? they come out one per week and i think something about it because it's come out one a week there's like it starts with like somebody like something bad is gonna happen you don't know exactly someone's gonna die something bad but then it's just following these people on vacation and it's like their little interests and you know it's like it's so it's kind of like very it's very lo-fi in terms of like there's not like tons of stuff going on but you just feel like it's all leading to like a i don't know like someone's gonna like it's like a sack a human sacrifice or something so it's like somehow it keeps people's interest but like it feels very like observational and more about i don't know there's something about it i don't think there's many shows like that like it's like it because of its it has its own formula that like i think is is fun for me because i really don't i mean i don't know i don't know what i'm doing period but like i like It's just funny, as somebody who's written these character stuff to varying degrees of success and of interest to other people, something about this has just kind of landed in a way that is amusing because it's the same thing I've always done, but there's just this kind of like...
18:34I honestly have no idea why it's a success. I'm happy that it is, but I don't know. I've always been the same guy, And like some things explode and some things die on the vine. It might not even have anything to do with it. It might have to do with just how it fits in the world in this moment in time. Exactly. Well, the first season it was like we did it during COVID and then it came out when there wasn't a lot of product because people weren't able to make it because of all these things shutting down. So we were able to get it out. And it just, I think because it just felt new, something new.
19:10like it just took on a life and then i just think i was at the stage in my career where it was kind of like if like i had been younger or different times i think i would have fucked it up but like i feel like i mean not to say like what you know whatever people can decide what you know it's like everybody's gonna have their own opinion about you know this season was bad or this season's good or whatever but like i just it's like the fact that i can actually like write them all and do them all and like in the time that i it's like i feel like that's because I'm at this stage in my career where I'm like, I know how to do that, you know?
19:42How would it be different if the season was a feature film instead of a series? I think the cliffhanger of it, it's like it's real and you know something bad is going to happen. Like people, by the end of the season, there's like a big froth of like people being like, I got to know what happens. And that's kind of fun as a writer to be like, yeah. And I think because it's dropped like once a week, it just, it becomes a conversation point between people. And so it's like, it's fun to watch that in real time as people get like, you know, they, they're really like grappling with it. Do people have like theories about.
20:23Oh yeah. Like TikTok. I mean, that's part of the, I think it's like in this world of like social media interaction, for whatever reason, it's been one of those shows that people have really like engaged with. they dress up as the character they literally you know they're doing impersonations of different you know like so it's like that part is you know it's like a creator it's fun to see it catches some imaginative fire in others and then they are creating stuff because of it and that that's always cool do you remember where the original idea came from i mean bro the truth is like i'm not I'm like, I'm a true hat.
21:03I mean, in the sense of like, I really am about the lifestyle. I'm like, I believe in art in a way, like, but I don't believe in it as a, like, I don't care about a legacy. I really don't care about, like, I don't even care if people like or watch my shit, to be honest. Like, what I care about is like, if I'm able to go keep doing it and go, and so for me, it's like, I learned early on, like, and this sounds like a spoiled bitch but like it's just like i don't want to do a show that i have to drive over the 405 to disney i don't want to go on a soundstage i don't want to do that i don't want to like it's like i want to like it's like i want like i i feel like i'm am i getting too real no okay this is real i just like i don't like i you know even the best coolest thing if it you can still feel dead about it do you mean yeah so it's like i and i'm i'm kind of like very sensitive to like feeling like okay this feels like a routine or this feels like a job or this feels like you know i mean like i want to like i i like to see new places i like to explore new cultures and i personally i'm like i know i'm i can do this job so it's not about whether i can do it or not it's just like is it cool like do i really want to do this and so tv like this is one where i'm like so maybe i just follow a couple on their honeymoon and like just then like go to sri lanka and we'll shoot the thing and then they'll go to the maldives and i'm like trying to think like what is the sounds like the most freaking font you know i mean and so the problem was covid i was like oh i had this i always had this idea of like a couple on a honeymoon and then And they would, you know, you realize in, you know, because I went on like Amazing Race and you realize when you're on these trips that these like, you know, like if you and I are hanging out here for a week, I'll know this Rick Rubin.
23:02But if you and I are then suddenly sent on a trip somewhere and we're like having to like deal with like cab drivers and whatever, I'll see a different Rick Rubin. It's the same with me. So like, I just thought that that's an interesting thing. You start with a couple who's all really into themselves and then they go on this trip and then they realize who they married and whatever. So I was like, that'd be fun because then we could travel around and do all this. But then because of COVID, I was like, no, we have to just do it in one place. We'll follow different people on the trip. And at the time, I was just like, I didn't want to go back to TV, but I was so bored during COVID.
23:37And it was like, I was literally, I was driving around the West with my dog. And I was like, this, I mean, this is cool, but like, I'm like ready to do something. So like I did the show and then like, then I'm like, oh, well, each season we could go somewhere new. We'd go to Thailand. We'd go to Japan. We could go to like. Have any of the shows done that? Not in this way. Not in this. I mean, I don't think, I mean, maybe, but I love it. There was no model that you based it on. No, no, no. And it's like really was just like this fantasy of mine to always be able to keep growing both as a writer and a creator or whatever, but also like, you know, have it that even if the show was a turd, that like the experience of going to make a show in like Sicily, you're going to have, yeah, somebody is going to come cool out of that.
24:18you're gonna meet and and also you know you whenever you're traveling you always want to like you want to be more than just sightseeing you know what i mean you want to like have sex with the land or you know what i mean or like you just want to get involved with the people in some way that's more like you know legit or like where you're really getting something you know what i mean and so like that that part of it is kush so i so yeah so i'm i like this idea i am happy to keep doing this and now they're paying me it's like it's like this is probably i'm just gonna finish this and then i'm gonna i don't know i'm probably i'm probably not gonna keep working i don't know i don't know but you described driving around with your dog yeah that's that's what it would feel like if you stop working yeah maybe i just feel like it's like it's just weird how it's like yeah i don't know how i'll feel but i'm getting older it's like i'm i'm like i don't i I like I'm starting to like the resort life.
25:12Like you wake up, you go to the gym, you eat some food, you go play some tennis, you eat some food. What else do you do? I don't know. But it seems fun. It's just like this whole thing of like, I mean, it's like I know I'm good. I can do this. I mean, when I say I'm good at it, I'm like, I can actually just do it. It doesn't mean I'm, you know, whatever. It doesn't mean anyone will like it. I'm not. Yeah. But you can finish the project. Yeah, exactly. which is more than some people can do so that's something so like but but yeah i don't i don't know i i i sometimes wrestle with that i mean i know that you are mr creative and keep the you know it's like you it's all about but i but there's a part of me is like do i really want to always just be creative maybe i just want to eat and play tennis
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28:22How is it different when you write something if you don't direct it? Then it's like you're just kind of working to figure out how to manipulate the director and doing it the way you want. It's like, we're not manipulating it, but just like, you know, you're trying to, you know, because I didn't really want to. Tell me. I didn't really want to direct in the beginning because I don't really like managing people. You know, it's like I'm not, I sort of, I've only built a knack for that over, you know, I started, the first time I directed I was like in my late 30s. So I really waited a while. And I'd had a lot of stuff made before that.
29:03So it was like, I was really kind of like hovering. And were you looking forward to getting that chance or no? No, it was just more like, over time, I was just like, it would just be easier for me to just go do it and interpret it myself than to keep trying to sit on set and be like, are you sure you want to do it? You know, whatever, are you sure you want to do it like that? It's annoying. Sounds horrible. And it's also annoying to other people and annoying me. So I don't feel like I'm one of those people where, like I heard your interview with Woody Allen and the way he would talk about it was like, I don't really, I don't enjoy it enough to say that that's, it's like something that I want to constantly be in the cycle of doing.
29:51I can relate to his, his like philosophy of like, it's better to spend your time thinking about problems that you can solve by making the art better than these existential things that you can't do much about. but at the same time it's like i feel like i'm in this idea of like wanting to just as a person i want to i don't know like i i kind of feel like it's like goes back to what i was saying before is just like sometimes creativity can be just a knee-jerk reaction to things you know i mean like or just nothing as creativity but like writing the script it's like i don't know what else to do so i'll just do this again do you mean and it's like i've always been afraid of not having enough money like i've always used money as an excuse to keep doing things and at some point you're just like i can't use that as an excuse anymore and what am i gonna like i don't know i'd be like to like push myself to try to find other ways to like grow beyond just this way of interacting especially when you're in charge like i get tired of being i'm tired of my opinion being so meaningful to people and like having stuff and like suddenly everybody has to you know i mean I don't know.
31:04Like, I'm. But it's only that for your stuff. It's not like you get to dictate what anyone else thinks about anything. No, yeah. You're just saying, this is how I see it. Yeah, but I've just been on this, like. And you get to share it. Yeah, so, like, but, like, for five years now, it's just been, I've just been doing this nonstop. So, like, I can't get off this bus. Which is okay. I'm not complaining. But it's just, like, at some point I was just like, I'd like to just fuck off. And maybe you'll do that at some point. And you'll either see, yes, this works for me. Or, hmm, can't wait to get back.
31:33yeah yeah yeah i had a question for you which is like when you're dealing with all these people do you ever feel like you're because it's like to me i think that when i think about you and obviously i'm impressed by you and and always and i've been for a long time like as you approach each artist like getting in like mind melding and getting in their heads is there a part of you feels like not because you're not a con artist because you're not actually you're not stealing anything you're actually you're enhancing everything that they're doing. But there is a con. Is there a con game element to it?
32:09Is there like a confidence game that like is like, are you doing something kind of a guru? Confidence is part of it, which is if I'm working with an artist who does something that I see is great and I see that they're insecure about it, which most artists are, I can have the confidence for them that they don't have for themselves. And it helps get them over the line. there yeah just because i sometimes it's like with actors i like i have all these actors on the show and you're trying to get the best out of each person and like but you there is something about it where i'm like i i feel like i'm like you know my personality and my persona becomes massaged by this job that i have do you mean where i'm there to you know like you treat people nicer than you would normally do.
32:57Well, it's just like, well, yeah, knowing which people are sensitive and you need to be gentle here, which people need to be challenged. That's true in life, though. That's how we treat the people around us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, it's like a part of me, you go like, is this, is this, how does that end up affecting myself by being always thinking about people through that prism? Do you know what I mean? Hmm. interesting never thought about it that way in a way it's a very it makes you move out forward into the world it's like you are you were trying to have a very because especially with art like you're having the most you're you're going into like a deep it's like you know it's it's not sex but it's as bad as it could be as intimate as that yeah and you're getting at people in their most vulnerable you know spot and you're you're fucking in there you know i mean and what's cool about it is that you're actually generating these relationships and you're you're reaching out into into them in a way that like you know some people wouldn't dare to go you know what i mean so it's like you're you're spreading out but it also like i just wonder then the power you have like it's It's a powerful thing, especially artists.
34:17They want to be seen, and you're telling them that you see them. Like you just said, I see you in something more than you even see yourself, which is like a head trip. Yeah, a lot of it is psychological and helping someone unlock themselves. So it's therapy, essentially. Do you feel like you lose yourself in the process? No, it's just more like I find it very, it's like, maybe I just feel a little more burdened by it because it's like sometimes, I don't know what it's like over time, like, you know, what happens in all these relations. is like you you sort of feel like sometimes with actors you feel like like there are dolls on the shelf waiting to be played with and they need you to come and play with them and then you're playing with them and then you know then you leave it's like puff magic dragon or something like they're waiting for you at the cave for you to come and then there's this sort of feeling of like wanting to it's almost like you have a bunch of girlfriends that you're stringing along in some way well not Not really, but it's not, again, I don't have some, like, I don't have an agenda, but it's sort of like, I feel like I've dropped, like, there's a lot of people where I'm like, you know, like, like I've done that where I like showcase a certain person's talent and then you move on to other people and then they're left feeling like you, you know, you, you walked away from, I don't know, I guess it's like this, you know, I, maybe it's because I'm just more neurotic or something.
35:45I just like to feel safer, not, it's just like I hate letting people down. Same. And it weighs on me sometimes. Same. So it's almost like, I won't do this anymore. And then it's like all fair and free and whatever. But I do think that there's something beautiful about the relationship. And you're also like in the... Yeah, it doesn't have to be some kind of heavy trip. Did you ever pitch a TV series before White Lotus? I started on TV shows. So the first show I ever worked on was the show Dawson's Creek. and then I did Freaks and Geeks with Judd Apatow and then I started creating my own shows. But like I, and I was - And you worked on Dawson Creek, was that as a writer?
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36:28Yeah, I was a writer. And was it in a writer's room or did you write by yourself? There was more writers around, but the nature of that show, like Freaks and Geeks that I did with Judd, that was more of a writer's room. People would like pitch on stuff, but with that show, you just kind of write on your own and then come together and, you know. But I was never somebody who liked to write with other people or liked writer's rooms or or that stuff and then i i did a show or i was like something was very fast i was always like fast but like i did a show where i basically had a nervous breakdown and i was like i was like i was too much so i had like a mental breakdown i was put in a hospital which i escaped from and like it was like that was the show where that really happened that really happened i see so yeah it was a it was kind of dramatic and so i was just like very afraid to go back and do tv again because i just was it was just the pressure of it was too much for me just because the schedule just because they've you know like it was like one of those things where like i was like you know it was like molly shannon jason schwartzman and like i had all my buddies doing it and like the network hated what i was doing and it was just like the work was just already itself was so hellish just like the amount of work was so much just from the way I work because I try to write it all and do it all myself yeah and then just also the fighting so it was like I was you know the work itself was the fighting wasn't about the work but it was to get the work out no it was about the work so like it was hard enough for me to just do all the work but then it was like a network that had been it was like Fox they had gone from like being married with children like rowdy bad kids network to American Idol at the time and it was like suddenly they were getting 30 million viewers, you know, viewers of the episode, and they wanted you to retain those viewers.
38:14So they were having an identity crisis in there. So like they were, they went from being, because I was this like, you know, kind of provocative indie guy that they had hired to do the show. And then they suddenly wanted like a family show that they could retain. And I was just like, I'm not, I can't pivot. I'm not good at that. I don't know what you think I can do. I can't do this. so I so yeah so it was just like classic case of them telling me this is what the audience wants and then they tested both the show that I had done and then the show that I had like this like well this freaking Frankenstein show that I had like it had turned into because I like you know I was young and giving in on stuff and then the original show tested great and the other and I'm like you guys didn't even you guys don't even know what you're doing and so like I sent the email you're not supposed to send I sent it to I sent it Brad I've sent it everybody like the head of the agencies like i was just like i was like trying to get fired and instead of getting fired they like gail's in her office like the head of the network's in her office she's crying and and and we need the script for tomorrow and we're like ah and so i went to some shrink and i was like he's like are you having suicidal age i was a and i'm like well i mean i yeah i want to throw myself in front of a bus but like that's not new well that's i mean and then i'm like literally being checked into a mental hospital where like i wouldn't have my own room and you know it was just like it was and i was like this is insane so like i'm like fuck this i'm running to the car they're like you're get the help you need and they're like chasing me through the thing i'm getting in my car i'm driving on the freeway and like the shrink has called the office and was like mike's not coming in he's gonna go get the help he needs like they basically tell him i'm in a mental institution wow and some other guy had just committed suicide writing a mr ed like we read for the same people so they thought that they were like killing writers with their notes so yeah i was driving on the freeway and then i have like 15 messages and there's all these executives and like producers that are crying on the phone thinking i'm in a mental you know like and they're like and i was on my way back to work because i didn't know where else to go and i was just like okay i shit the bed i should totally shit the bed and then the show got canceled it was like a lesson of like i'm not really made for that kind of stress like some people like judd for example was somebody i saw and he was he went through stress like i saw him stress but like he was good at like just you know pushing back and being a bitch back and like you know i mean like it was like he knew his worth i mean he knew what to say i don't know how he knew but like he knew how to like fight and like i i would fight and i would just fall apart you know i just couldn't i was just not somebody who's like could do the creative job and also fight like all that time you know what i mean yeah so it's like it's taken me a longer time to be in a situation where i could just do the job and not have to fight you know what i mean and you're there now yeah with this like show like and you know hbo in general i did another show with them called enlightened with or during like it was like where i yeah they they left you believed me in me and they saw what i could bring and and they accept me
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43:04What's the first time you ever performed in anything? well I did it when I was in college because I was I was I'm really a writer I really see myself as a writer but but like sometimes I would write stuff and I would sit there and watch it and I just be like I can't and so I was like oh I'll just be in it and then I don't have to sit there passively and so I would act sometimes in stuff that I had written in college did you write it knowing it was for you to perform or no sometimes sometimes I'd be like oh I'll do this and and like and then when I did movies it was like I didn't really want to be like the lead but I I was just like, it'll give me something to do.
43:38So I'm not sitting behind the director being like, eh. Have you ever acted in anything that you didn't write? Yeah, I have. Just like as friends, you know, favors to friends and stuff. Is that fun or no? It's fun to interact that way. But it's such a different kind of vibe. You know, writing and especially being like the mastermind of the thing. You know, you always are like, you need to stay on point or else, you know, it's like you're failing everyone. one you gotta just like make it as good as you can make it and acting is like letting go and like giving you know like giving into something you know it's kind of more of a like free-spirited thing that I feel like I can tap into and have fun with but I also it's less compelling to me lately I guess how's writing a second season different than writing a first season I've never really done it more than two seasons because I'm you know I have this like like I talked about earlier, which is like, I'm a novelty freak.
44:40And I like to feel like I'm doing something new. So I got the idea of like going back to the same thing over and over, like sounds like hell. But like with this show, it's an anthology. So it's totally new actors, completely new location, new. So like that part of it, it's like, but then the themes can kind of like interplay with each other and kind of feel more textured and it can develop over. So like that part of it is clutch. I love that. So like, that's cool. Yeah, so I'm happy with this gig and would like to keep doing it as long as... It seems like you've found a format that suits you. Yeah, it's perfect.
45:14It's perfect for me. But yeah, you asked me about reality shows. Yeah, tell me that. You don't see the pleasure of going on a reality show? A reality game show? Starving on an island? Do you ever see Survivor? I've never seen it. You've never seen Survivor? I've never seen any reality show. You've never seen a reality show? No. Tell me, what was the thought? Well, I don't know. It's hard to explain to somebody who doesn't really even see any of the pleasure of it. But like, Survivor is just a great, it's a classic show. If it wasn't a TV show. Would I do it? Would you do the same thing? Oh, no.
45:51In the same competition? No. Everything was the same except there's no cameras. Well, I would definitely do like the Amazing Race I did, which is like a scavenger hunt around the world. Hell yeah, I'd do that. And I want to do that. Feeling or not? Yeah, I would do that just to do it. And it's like I've actually tried to, I mean, I haven't done it yet, but I'm in the process of like I want to organize a tuk-tuk race across Sri Lanka with your friends, and you can like get all the things. And like it's like a scavenger, you go different places, and it's, I mean, yeah, it would be so fun. And I've done that where I've like hosted and like scavenger hunts around L.A.
46:25and like you go all balls to the wall, and that's fun. But Survivor, I don't know. Survivor is more, it's very punitive. I mean, you're starving. I don't know if I would suffer like that if there weren't cameras. Like, I feel like the cameras, no, I think the cameras give you life. You know what I mean? You're like, because then it's like you're suffering for America. You're suffering. Like, it's like, I think to suffer alone anonymously, like, that's suffering. In fact, on Survivor, you suffer before the show starts because they have like a week where you're on, you know, you're under this lockdown where they're doing all of these different kinds of, like, you have to go through this process and there are no cameras.
47:06And I hated that. Anytime that there weren't the cameras around, I was hating it because it was like, you're stuck in this, like, before, like, so they have tribal council, you vote people out or whatever. But then before the tribal council, you're in this tent and there's like a PA there telling you not to talk to each other and you're sitting in the mud and there is no camera and you're just like, this is sucks. but then you go to the travel castle there's cameras you vote someone else and it's dramatic and it's i'm like this is fun because you feel like it's showbiz no it's just like it's like part of yeah maybe it's just because it's i mean yeah well one i'm a fan of the show and you know that you're part of this thing and so that's funny it's just funny i don't know it's just funny but like when you're sitting just waiting to go on and you're in the dirt and you're starving and you got shit in your mouth and like this fucking PA who's 22 is telling you to shut up.
47:57You're just like, fuck this. But, you know, I don't know if I could do it again. I've been, I just, they just did a 50th anniversary. It's like the 50th season. And they brought me back to come and I just did it in the summer. And it was hell. The whole thing was hell. It was like literally every second of it was hellish. It was so hellish. So I don't know if I could ever do it again, but I'm still a fan. On most of the other people on the show, people that you know from something else or no? No, none of them. I mean, it's just people. And actually, that's why I didn't like it as much this time.
48:30Because the first season I went through, it was like a truck driver from Texas. It was people from all walks of life who'd never been in that experience before. You're going through it with them. There's something very bonding about that. And it's very, it is a lot of drama. You know, 39 days starving. You know, like, I lost 27 pounds. You're like going through all these things. You know, you're crying. you're like it's emotional it's like a big deal and then the next time you go and you're going with a bunch of people who are now reality contestants who like have like kind of worked on their persona through i mean they are they started as truck drivers but now they're like the you know people they bring yeah they're influencers and so and also you've been that you've done it before it feels a little more canned so it's just that's just the nature of beast but so yeah but i but i was just like 50th anniversary i don't know that's something i i just i was like i should just do it and also at the time i was like oh white lotus it did sort of become this like phenomenon it was like it was just a lot like and i was like i don't want to be i don't deal with that right now i was like i'll i'll go somewhere and like skulk away and be like just one of a bunch of people on an island but i realized i couldn't you know it was like it was like i got there and it was like there's a press junket before it was like all these things that i had this fantasy of what it was gonna how i was gonna be able to get away from this person that i was trying to run away from and i was like oh no this person is here and now i'm starving now it's just that person and i'm starving i like competing i'm competitive and i like yeah novelty are you a gambler not really i don't know yeah because i don't like losing money but i'm competitive in the sense of like i don't know like it's like it's a very king's court you know what i mean it's like it's real like yeah it's like a king's court of like personality it's like it's a pagan playground of these different like personality types that are all trying to like is it a popularity contest in some way yes i mean it's more like the person who wins is the person who it's like it's really about influencing other people it's like how can you get what you want when everybody wants the same thing.
50:39And it's really about getting other people to do what you want them to do. And they're all people who want to do their own thing. So it's a war of wills, basically. It's classically a very interesting show to watch because when it first came out, you had these different sort of archetypal people that they kind of cast it for the crotchety female truck driver, the vixen who's the bathing suit model, and all these from these different... they're all they all want the same thing and they're all eating each other until one person is left i don't know i just like surviving like musical chairs i used to like musical chairs like you'd be the last person to have a chair or like dodgeball where you throw the ball until there was just one person left i don't know something about i guess it's like maybe it's because my mom had all these miscarriages and i was a baby who was like trying to survive you're the one who made it the one that made it i'm like i like when that survivor first showed up i was just like this is the show.
51:38This is like surviving, surviving other people. And you wrote a movie that was a wrestling theme. Yeah, Nacho Libre. Tell me about that. How did it come to be? Well, the director is the guy who'd made Napoleon Dynamite. Jared Hess is one of the great... I love that movie. Yeah, he's an amazing guy. He's such a nice guy. And his wife, they're both super cool. And so they had this idea to do a wrestling movie with Jack. Jack Black and I had a company together for a while, and Jack's also an amazing guy. And so, you know, Jared was a Mormon and he had done his mission in, I think, Ecuador? I don't know, somewhere in South America.
52:16He spoke Spanish and he just wanted to go back there and do a luchador movie. And I was like, that sounds, that's like right up my alley. You're shooting in Mexico. Yeah. And Jack was down there and we just had a blast. It was probably the most fun I've ever had on a set. It was just so much fun. How much do you know before you start writing? Well, I don't really write anything that's like, I'm a kind of know-nothing guy. I don't know. I try to like, for me, it's more about feeling my way in. And like, I don't need to be. Like the story. Do you know the whole story before you start writing? I usually know where it's going.
52:51And I try to vibe out the characters. And that part is the funnest part to me, honestly, is the gestating. It's like, you know, where you're lying there. oh this is an idea and like the like the jesting before the writing is super fun and i like to try to stay keep myself from writing until it's just like the baby is ready to be born do you mean the writing part happens quickly yeah it goes like it's like and and this is the problem now is that like i because the show is eight episodes it's like so i like i just went through a period I was like writing 450 pages of stuff in two and a half months.
53:31Wow. And so I have a sprinter's approach, and sometimes it's a marathon. Yeah. And I go a little cuckoo because it's like I just finished. I'm completely spent. It's like I've had my finger in the electric socket, and I'm just like, so I need to just get my head on straight. Do you play all of the different characters when you're writing? Yeah. Do you ever say things out loud or no? yeah all the time it's like i i write it until i hear it so i don't know if i'm actually saying it but it's being said in my head yeah and if something funny happens do you laugh i hope so totally i mean if something sad happens i cry but when you write something sad you'll cry and when you write something funny you'll laugh if you're alone in the room i mean some things yeah if if i'm laughing i don't know if it's always funny to other people but it is funny to me so like and and i'm and i definitely come from the place of like i'm trying to like get myself off and like i'm writing for those moments where i'm getting off yeah you're entertaining yourself yeah great all the best things happen that way yeah okay i'm going to read a list to you and i want you to prioritize it okay there's five things on the list characters dialogue story setting philosophy huh i think character first and you know philosophy i personally like i like to organize things based on philosophical concepts Like I think philosophical concepts get me excited.
55:14So character and philosophical concepts kind of sometimes like. Both number one? Well, they go hand in hand. Like the characters come out of philosophical ideas. So philosophy might even come first. Yeah. It's just sort of like, what am I trying to get at? And then I'll build a character that sort of helps me get at that. So yeah, you can't have one without the other, I guess. At least with this kind of stuff that I'm doing. So I would say they're both one. and then dialogue what is it setting dialogue story and setting are the three story i think is probably the next because i think that that's like story is the playing out of these ideas you know and then the dialogue would be next i in a weird way dialogue is probably more my strength than the other things so like that's it's just it is what it is and then setting is last last what are your favorite films of all time well it's funny we go i go back to like what were the ones that got me excited about storytelling i mean like the poseidon adventure if i watch it now i'd probably be like but like there's something about it that and that's also a survivor show like it's like did you ever watch the poseidon adventure i did do you remember there was all the erwin allen there was a poster that was like who will live and who will die and it It was like, you know, like six of them died and six of them lived.
56:35Do you remember this? The County Inferno was another one. Yeah, exactly. And so like this idea of like you don't know who's going to live and who's going to die. And then I was into that. I don't know if that's really an effect of like, I don't know. All those survivors, what do we call it? White Lotus, whatever it is. It's a little bit like that. Like who's going to die? Like who's going to live and who's going to die? Do you think seeing Poseidon Adventure many times as a young person made you like this? Yeah. Am I, like, was I excited about that? Like, would I inevitably be excited by something, whether Poseidon Adventure existed or not?
57:10Yeah. What do you think? I think it's a collective. I mean, it's like, this is, I don't know why you're, you know, I'm sure with music, it's like, you have an orientation. but then some things capture your imagination and then the procreative if they weren't there i know i wouldn't be the same yeah i wouldn't have the same maybe format to have reveries on those kinds of things so like i do think it's it changed me and also watching it like on repeat like i'm sure there was music you just listened to over and over and like and you know what i mean it was like so like all of the storytelling mechanisms just got ingrained inside your brain you know so much of today's life happens on the web squarespace is your home base for building your dream presence in an online world designing a website is easy using one of squarespace's best in-class templates.
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59:26How is writing a theatrical play different than writing for television? I mean, I wrote plays when I was in college, but I haven't really done it since. So, but I mean, the thing is, what's cool is like, it's like being in a, it's like, what's the difference between performing live and performing, like having, you know, producing a record. It's like, there's so many things you can control, so many things you can excise, you can just, you know, guide the viewer, the audience in a way that you can in a live thing. And so I... Would it make it harder, you think, to write theater because of that? But I just, it's like, I think that for me, like, this is so sweet to be able to have this kind of audience and to, you know, I think live theater is exciting for performers and stuff.
1:00:14But I guess for a writer, I feel like, you know, and then being able to really, like, manage the material in the way that I can as a producer, just it's preferable to me. Would you say you're a control freak? I'm a control freak in the sense of certain like I don't like being under someone else's like I don't I don't I don't want the mistakes to be mine yeah I'm not OCD anymore I'm not a perfectionist I I hate to say it how did that happen what's the cliche is like perfectionism is the is the enemy of productivity you know I mean like it's like like I realized early on if I was gonna be so niggly and like i'm gonna get bogged down and it's like and it also made me sort of miserable you know what i mean i i feel like i want to be light-hearted i want to be able to create and feel proud of it but also kind of like not be an ogre also maybe the more that you do you realize what is and isn't important yes and also yeah exactly and also like there's certain things where you like you realize as you know as someone who is really into the collaboration that like letting go of feeling ownership of everything and realizing other people are bringing stuff to it and it gives it more variety of expression and so that comes with security over time the security of self and not being such a you know stingy bitch can you remember any uh creative breakthroughs for you that have happened over the years well i've learned from everybody and i've learned from even things that weren't yeah from failures and and like you know i would talk about judd uh doing freaks and geeks and he was had this you know he was a very he's very anal expulsive like just throw the shit on the wall you don't see what sticks and like and is not precious about it.
1:02:11In a way, he workshops everything. He goes through the process like a studio almost where he watches what people like and so he's canvassing. I was always having this kind of authorial pride of like, this is my intention. It was always kind of feeling like I was on defense of any kind of influence or I was always more rigid and so working with him was helpful to So like, I'll never be him and I'll never do it that way. But like, but to like, let go of some kinds of, you know, uppity shit that I had. Tell me more about your parents. Well, my dad was a minister and religious. Did you see him when he would speak?
1:02:55Yeah, we, I was, you know, I was a minister's son. So like every Sunday we would, you know, because he was like, that was our church. So, yeah. So he's an intense guy. And he was, you know, my parents are, do you ever get into the Enneagram? Yeah. Okay. So like, I'm a seven, which is like, like seven is like an enthusiast, but like kind of in dreamers. And like my parents are both, they both live in these dream worlds. Like they live, they're dreamers. They're, my dad is like a dreamer of like Christian theology and Bible stories and, you know, like, and like, and justice, social justice. And my mom is.
1:03:36Did he grow up in it as well? Yeah. His parents were, yeah, very religious and they kind of groomed him to be the next Billy Graham. And he wrote all these like, you know, religious books with like all of these like big, you know, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and Jim and Tammy Baker and stuff. So yeah, they're both, you know, like on Survivor, I realized like I'm not good in material reality. I don't know how to do shit. I don't know how to, I'm useless. I'm a useless person when it comes to the material world. And it's like, I was raised by these dreamers who lived in the dreamlands. I'm like, I'm literally out of like a Christian Tennessee Williams play or something.
1:04:15So like, it's like, I, so like they're both beautiful people and they live in these beautiful dreams. And your mom was a believer as well. She is a Christian, but she was just somebody who made umbrellas for fairies. And always just lives in this kind of rainbow land of she sees the good in everybody. And kind of just, I don't know, they're interesting people. And only now as I'm older do I realize, like, how much I'm, you know, just a product of these two beautiful, dreamy people. And, you know, like, they have cool spirits. You think everything you write is biographical? Yeah, I definitely feel like things that don't come from inside you, I don't know how you'd write it, you know what I mean?
1:05:07and I guess my goal in life is to like be large enough to to have a large canvas inside me you know when you're writing do you picture the characters physically like do you see them it's more I hear them because I don't know who else also I mean sometimes I'll write like I wrote for Jennifer Coolidge for the show or Jack Black I wrote a bunch of stuff for him so I see them and I hear their voice but in general since I don't always know who's gonna be it it's but you don't picture like someone like this like an archetype or do you yeah I mean when you have casting which I'm doing right now for the next season someone will show up and I'll be like yeah this looks like the face that I see in my head and is it always matching something that you already thought when you're casting or is it ever wow I never thought of it like that oh yeah that's even better totally totally 100 and sometimes somebody will come along i'll think let me think of an example like parker posey was an actress that was in the last season and the way this part was written was written as this kind of like prim southern matriarch or whatever and then parker posey comes in with this just like it's just totally different kind of energy and like hilarious and so like it yeah it just i mean that's the part of like where you know time and experience like i'm like okay let's capture let's let parker be parker and figure out how to make her shine you know and like and step away from some of this preconceived things that i need you know some stuff i need i need it to do for the story but like other places like let's let her just be her you know how about ad libbing yeah i'm i'm you know i came up with judd and jack and all those people so i'm you know it's like it's like a combination like i want to feel like i have a reason for the things that I put in there, but then, you know, we get a version of that and then we play around with it.
1:07:04What's essential for a character to exist? I mean, some characters are the, you know, if it's the person going through the story, then they need to have, you know, a dimension and a purpose that's deeper. And then, you know, the other characters are there to, as orchestration in a sense, it's like you have your main song and then you have these different things to be counterpoint or to be a foil or to be the jester to that, you know what I mean? Different people that, so usually it's like each story has this kind of centerpiece character idea for me and then the other characters are there to, I don't know, create the dynamism that you want for a story.
1:07:46Do you have any kind of rules for yourself about like, you like having a certain number of characters? Yeah, I mean, I think it's like with White Lotus, for example, I think the gestating part is like you're trying to figure out how many characters you need in order to have enough material and you know event and like drama and I guess I like to be economical so I want to have the least amount that I can have whilst you know so that everyone like I like a chamber piece you know like I like to feel like I'm being like very conservative and so that everybody there's like real sort of shifts for everything thing and it like i just like you have your own you have a more of a relationship to the work you know it's like it's like a chef you know it's like you want to have a little bit of this kind of flavor you want a little bit of this flavor if it's too this it's too simple if it's too this it's too you know crazy you know i mean it's like you're just going for that like perfect little i don't know and whether you you know other people see it but that for you that's like the thing that's like you want to get that perfect mix of flavor and texture and stuff because everything need to make sense no i mean and that's the thing it's like i you know i grew up with a dad who wrote sermons and that everything was this kind of like you know it's like you know had a dogmatic quality or or there's like a yeah there's a lesson there's a it's like always bringing you to the water to drink you know what i mean and so like i kind of came from that world where i like like i said like philosophy like inspires me but then at some point you also like you know great art sometimes it's just like the just the vividness of it or just the weirdness or the surprise of it that like stays with you and so like and you think of dreams that you have where it's like you know it doesn't all come together but it has these elements that are just like you know that linger in the mind and so that part of it is you want to be able to have enough space so that it doesn't feel like it's it's such a closed circle any rules about story structure that you follow or no?
1:09:55That's a big thing to unpack. I mean, I like counterpoint, and I like characters that start, and then they become almost their opposites. And I don't know, there's certain pleasures of drama that I find to be something I always tend to respond to.
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1:11:57How do you know when something you read is good? What's the feeling? I mean, I'm sure it's the same with you. It's just like when you get excited and like when you're like, no one can tell me that this isn't good. Like whether it's good or not, like nobody can tell me and it will knock me off this perch. Do you know what I mean? Where you're just like. You feel it. You're like, this is going to be bad. And like, cause you know, you get so many, you know, especially in, you know, it's so expensive, this thing. And like, there's so much money involved and there's so many collaborators. It's, it's like, you know, you have dozens of actors, you know, so many people have opinions.
1:12:31And it's like, you really, it's like, those are your North stars or those things where you're just like, this is going to be funny. I believe in this little thing. And like, it kind of anchors you in the process. When you write something funny, do you have someone that you call up to tell it to? yeah i i'm pretty private for somebody in this thing so i don't i like and i've had the thing where i've had friends where you show them draft and you're just like this isn't fair like it's like so i tried it i did to have a very small like i just go to hbo if you guys are okay if if all systems go then i know over time you know thousands of people are but that early initial thing i feel like i've i've learned like not to but yeah there are but with that said like there's a couple people that i know i'm safe with that like get it i'm not even saying share it with them to get feedback but just more you're excited to share the thing i do i i'm sure there are but i really don't have it i don't do it that much because i'm i'm i'm i tend to be kind of i'm I'm not extroverted in that way where I'm like, and I also feel like I lose some of the pleasure of the doing if I tell it.
1:13:49Yeah, you don't want to give it away. I just want to hold that excited energy and use it to the work. Do you think of yourself as spiritual? Yeah, totally. I mean, I feel like art is a spiritual enterprise. It's a non-material. Beyond the art piece, do you have a spiritual practice? but i consider myself a western buddhist in the sense of like i feel connected to the buddhist at least this sort of western version of the buddhist concepts like if i'm not really reading the sutra like i you know it's like like this idea of the non-self and finding that through meditation and like you know like and and some of the stuff that we we talked about before about past lives and all that so like i i feel like yeah i'm spiritual but But I also feel like I'm strong.
1:14:40I have this feeling lately where I'm from a religious background. And I've seen people leave the church. And then how they create their own religions. And I'm kind of, especially as you get more successful. And you're around other people that are successful. And they feel like they've landed. Like I've landed on the, you know, like it's like where they're, I don't know. like like i like i feel like i want to live in a place of unsurety because i feel like that's certain things work and certain things don't work but like i like the idea of being you know kind of more you know it's like like in a science mode of like i can have my mind changed about anything do you mean where like somebody could say oh this is like you're you know like it's like and not be too rigid about oh like the choices don't you feel like as you get older like a lot of times people like the choices they've made they have to be defensive about them and that like this is like the this is the truth you know what i mean or this is the best way and and like i also agree that everybody comes to their own we all build our own heaven you've built your heaven here you know what i mean but i like this feeling of being still in a like i haven't landed on the plant you know what i mean i i don't know like it's like okay to not know and be and be you know modest about what i really know yeah yeah yeah no that's beautiful same i i don't feel like i know anything yeah and i like to be in situations like you know you go on survivor as silly as it is and be around all these other people who are living such different lives than you and you realize like oh yeah there's a whole like i don't know everything you know i mean i'm the king of this little castle but i'm just a little it's just a little it's the littlest of castles how did you learn to direct i don't know if i still know how to direct i mean basically i mean i had a i mean like i i think some people would say i don't know how to direct i don't i like i i basically you know like i really don't know much about cameras it's funny because i'm going to france and it's like i've learned french over the years multiple times i learned in high school i went to montreal i don't it's like and i feel like i'm like i'm starting over again and like every time i go onto a set and it's like and like we're talking about shots and stuff i'm like i've been doing this for decades now but i'm like i feel like i'm like do i even know what i'm talking about like i don't you know it's like every time i feel like i am learning it again and like with each actor you learn it again with each person it's like each thing is its own it's like what i know is the work you know what i mean what i know is what i is the writer that came concocted this vision and then now i'm like working with these designers who know a lot more than me about how to like get me to the promised land but i do feel as a director i feel like i'm just kind of like i just have access to the writer in a way that's that is i have a that's my way in i guess tell me something you learned from your father what i learned from my father is gonna this can probably make me emotional but you know my dad he was from this religious upbringing and he you know he wanted to save people's souls and and there's something beautiful there's something obnoxious about you know the missionary who is coming in and thinks that they know better than everyone else and is telling him but there's also something beautiful about seeing each person as a soul who is worthy of saving you know and that each person is a child of god so i think that there's something very yes obviously spiritual but also yeah of service to each person that you can see jesus in each person and that that was something that he taught me you know it was like so that's a compassion that is is really a deep source of self, you know, where you feel like you're not better than anybody else.
1:18:55You have to be of service to each person, and each person is a divine self, you know. So if my dad's older, I get emotional. Like, that's, yeah, that was, like, an essential thing. That was the first thing I ever felt like I learned. I mean, it's, you know, I want to live up to that, you know. Sounds like an incredible gift. Amazing. Where'd you grow up? Grew up in Pasadena, like the foothills of the mountains in the Eam Canyon. What was childhood like there? It was cool. It was, I mean, it was nice. I mean, it was a different time, you know, like I was up in the foothills and there wasn't a lot going on.
1:19:43And so it was, it was allowed me to have a lot of time to introspect and be the weird kid that I was. And, and yeah, it's, I thank God every day that I wasn't born in this time of all of this easy distractions. You know, you had to go out and find it, you know, and you really had to work for it. And, but yeah, I just think, God, had I been born now, how many things I wouldn't have come to or done or, I don't know. I really feel for these kids. I'm sure they're fine, but yeah, there's nothing like being totally unable to connect with, you know, having to really go out and find the culture is a hero's journey in a way.
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1:22:12Oh, no favors.
From the publisher
Mike White is a writer, director, producer, and actor best known as the creator of HBO’s acclaimed series The White Lotus. He began his career writing and producing TV shows including Dawson’s Creek and Freaks and Geeks, later writing and acting in films such as School of Rock and Nacho Libre. Premiering in 2021, The White Lotus has received widespread critical acclaim across its seasons with numerous Emmy and Golden Globe nominations for drama series, writing, directing, and acting categories. His career, spanning three decades, is defined by a consistent focus on character, tone, and social observation across film and television.
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