Nicole Shanahan

34:50And so, you know, part of why I went into law was I love justice and I love delivering service that helps humanity. And I was like, man these transaction costs are really killing that process because you know, it would literally stop a law firm in its tracks when a file would get lost or the software system was down. You always interested in the technology side? I think technology represents efficiency in transactions. And I think what that means is that it's a useful tool, a very powerful tool to bring service to people in an efficient way and reach more and more people. And so when people ask me about the power of technology or technology as a core skill to advance oneself in the world and STEM is so important, I actually disagree.

35:45I think that technology is a wonderful tool, but it's not the thing, right? The thing is the spirit of humanity and the spirit of human potential. And so for me, that's what it's always represented is, is how can we use technology efficiently with heart and with grace to help advance the human potential? So the technology supports the mission. It's not the mission. It just supports the mission. Technology is not the mission. That's really well said. But it is very important to the mission. When you described the way patents work in the United States, are they global patents or are they only for the United States?

36:30How does the global aspect of patents work? Yeah, so we have a unified system that was created through a treaty and those are called PCT patents. And each country for the most part has a national track for getting a national patent. There's been some efforts to create an efficiency around how to file in multiple, multiple countries, but every country has its own independent issue and system. So there's the United States path. China has a patent office. I actually worked in Beijing working at a Chinese patent law office for a little while after college and Europe has both national systems and a European system EU patents they've attempted to and they have done a really nice job actually creating a Pan European patent system, but each country still maintains its own office So if you get a patent accepted in the US if there is someone who has a similar patent did another part of the world that already exists.

37:36Would you know about that? Through search, it would come up. And in fact, there's a private path for patent searches. And then there's also a government path for patent searches. And each country before issuing a patent has its own search process. There's search and disclosures. You're actually required to disclose any conflicting we call it prior art. Are there cases where the same patent exists in two different parts of the world with two different people? Yeah, you know, there's a lot of overlap in certain patents and that oftentimes will lead to these invalidity challenges. Without one of those challenges, those two patents could actually theoretically just exist side by side in perpetuity.

38:22But in the instance that there is a challenge, and usually those challenges are due to some underlying commercial motive, then those two patents will be challenged side by side. Tell me about your first job. So I was 12 years old in Oakland and I was very passionate about work and it was in large part due to the economic challenges my family had. And I said, I'll just, I'll work, I'll get a job, I'll figure something out. And most of it was, you know, due to the fact that I just, I wanted to have my own spending money and I didn't want to ask my mom for help. She was already really taxed just putting food on the table and gas and keeping the car running.

39:10And so I went door to door in this town near my house called Monclair. And I literally went door to door restaurant, business to business, and I said, can I work here? And, you know, some of them looked at me and they're like, he look kind of young. And well, here's an application, good luck. And then there was one burger joint in Montclair at the time called Flippers. And they were just very understaffed. You could tell there was just unclean tables and people running around. And I could hear yelling from the kitchen. And I was like, may I have a job? He was like, can you start now? And I was like, oh, yeah, I can't.

39:53And I just started busing tables there right away. And that was my first job. And I stayed there for a little while. And then I moved to a different restaurant a few years later. And I was front of the house helping people.

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41:40What was your experience of school like? I have loved school since pre -K. I've loved every aspect of school and I just found it to be such a place for expression and getting to know people and I love the schedules and in the order and that there were these things you could learn and express and write and that the teacher paid attention to you as you went about your journey through the classroom and I just found school to be a place of great peace for me. Do you think that that was in relation to your home situation? Oh, yeah, probably. I think I would have liked school either way just because I'm a curious person.

42:33but definitely home was a hard place. And definitely lacked consistency and predictability. My dad had real challenges with alcoholism and my mom was struggling to keep food on the table, get us to school, and then she was also going to school herself, a lot of my early childhood. Yeah, so being for me to go to school was a chance to kind of just enjoy the structure of it all and to have the opportunity to explore in a nice safe way. Do you know how old your parents were when they met? Yeah, my mom was 28. She had, they actually met in Carpool believe it or not. My mom immigrated to the United States in 1983 from Guangzhou, China.

43:33And they met because she came over on Deng Xiaoping and President Carter's policies of bringing young professionals to study at US universities. My mom was an accountant. So she came over, landed in Oakland because that's where where her sponsor was. And you did a way to get to school and met my dad who was also, he was 27 at the time. And he was on this carpool list and they met in carpool. And then you mentioned your dad had problems with drinking. Was that your whole life or did it change from early life to later life? You know, it was my whole life. And I think, you know, my dad also grew up in Oakland.

44:20And I learned more about him in the last few years because I've done quite a bit of healing work around that. And he was part of this generation of boys, you know, who was told at a young age that, you know, boys can't have feelings. and I believe what happened was he never had a chance to fully feel and process his feelings and that was very hard on him. And, you know, sadly, like so many young men, I think, without that expression, that can become quite a hard, toxic environment emotionally. And so going to alcohol was my father's way, I believe, of dealing with that. Do you have brothers and sisters?

45:09I have one younger brother. He's two years younger than me. And we, yeah, we kind of helped raise each other. I'm really proud of him. He's actually getting his masters in social work right now at Denver University. He's a real good guy. Tell me about the house you grew up in in the neighborhood. My father and his younger sister grew up in Oakland. And when I was born, he was really trying to have a career as an IT professional. And so I was born in Roseville and they were living in a condo at the time and they were really struggling. And so they decided to go back to Oakland to the house he was raised in, my grandparents' house.

45:53And that's the house that I was raised in as well. So I grew up in the house that my father grew up in and my grandparents were very gracious and allowing us to live in that house. How long before you were born, did your mom come to the United States? My mom had been in the United States for just under two years by the time I was born. She and my dad fell in love and it was very passionate and they really wanted to get married and they did. And nine months later, I was born. Did your mom ever talk to you about the culture shock of coming to a new place? All the time. So one of her first memories is leaving the airport, arriving into Oakland and looking around and she was like, did something happen?

46:47Where are all the people? Where are all of the outdoor shops? And, you know, like, what's going on? Was there like, did something really bad happen? It took her a few weeks to understand just how different, you know, Guangzhou, a very, very busy Chinese city, like how vastly different, you know, the American experiences and, you know, she initially came here and lived as a live -in caretaker for an elderly woman in Oakland while she was going to school. And, you know, she came over with not a lot of money. And so that was her way of covering rent expenses. And I think her experience in America was, she learned about America through movies and mostly Harrison Ford movies.

47:32And she had dreamed about America's and she was a very, very little girl. And so coming to America for her was everything she had ever dreamed of. Going to school, getting a job, falling in love. I mean, for her, it was just a magical time. Have you been to Guangzhou? I have a few times. Did you ever get to go with your mom? I have. Yeah. Tell me about that. We went when I was in college and we did one of those packages and my mom wanted to, because they're very affordable, but we found one of the packages that stops in Guangzhou. And we went to Guangzhou and when we got there, my mom actually hadn't been back since she left.

48:20I think she went to Hong Kong for a wedding once, but she hadn't actually made it back to her hometown. And we were walking around and she actually didn't recognize where she was. She was like, I recognize that bridge, but nothing else is the same. Because China had built so much in such a short amount of time. They had built up all around this neighborhood that she had grown up in. And she said it was virtually indistinguishable, but she could still see, you know, some walls and some indications of places that she had recognized from from when she had grown up there. What was your first job after school?

49:01My first job after college was I was really curious about China actually and I wanted to go and study and understand Chinese intellectual property law. and this was in 2007 and 2008. The Olympics were to be in China in 2008 and I had just done a big study abroad program while in college where I'd stopped in China. And during that stop I had gone around and I was like, I need to find the Chinese intellectual property law firms here because this is where I wanna come once I graduate. And I had gone online, thankfully, The internet was a pretty navigable place at that point. And I went online and I made a list of all of the patent law firms and there were three.

49:58There weren't many. And then I went door by door trying to find Chinese patent lawyers who would talk with me. And I actually ended up meeting this wonderful man, Jali Xu. and Jolly happened to also be the government's highest ranking intellectual property advisor. And so he spoke great English and I said I was like oh my gosh I can't believe I ran into it, I ran into him in the hallway and I had my resume and I said I really would love to come and learn from you when I graduate. And he was like, you know I don't know I don't like like what are you going to do. And I was like, I will sort your files, I will write your emails in English, I will do anything, you know, to help your practice.

50:48And he was like, you know, actually, that would be really helpful. My English is good, but it's not so great. If you want to come and help me be like an international liaison for a year, that would be wonderful. And I said, okay, we're done deal. And I went home and I told my family and they all thought I was kind of, you know, they were all worried. And they were like, all right, well, we've never been able to tell you what to do. So I guess you're going to do it, right? And I said, yep, I'm going to go do it. And right after graduating, I actually did a quick summer program at the WTO trade law in Geneva for a few months, got a certificate.

51:28And then I went from Geneva and I flew through Qatar to get to Beijing. I had never been to any of these places. And I was by myself. I had a packed bag. I had a few thousand dollars in my pocket that I'd saved up and I just landed in Beijing. And how was that experience? Beijing in 2007 and 2008 was an amazing place. The energy of China in 2007 was so extraordinary because this was prior to the Olympics. It was this huge debut that the entire country was getting ready for. And it was very open. And if you were a young professional, there was so much for you to do and learn. and there was this vibrant, vibrant expat community.

52:23And there was this bookstore in Beijing called the Bookworm that was run by an American woman. And I would go to the Bookworm on the weekends and just sit there in this expat community. And we would just talk about China. We would talk about how exciting it was that it was open. And sadly, I've heard the bookstores no longer there, but it was before things got politically tense. And it was a wonderful, intellectually stimulating, curious, open -hearted, exciting place.

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54:24What did you do your year abroad? So I did my year abroad. It was a backpacking trip and it was called the Pack Rim Study Abroad Program at my university and they ran it every three years and it was led by a Buddhist scholar. And so for nine months you weren't allowed to come home during those nine months. You only could bring what you could fit in a backpack. And we moved from site to site throughout Asia. And our first stop was Mongolia. And in Mongolia, we were tasked with tracking the long -horned Argolly sheep and learning about their migratory patterns and studying how the cashmere trade was interrupting it in deep central Mongolia.

55:17And it was during that time because the director of my program was also a Buddhist scholar. We studied ancient Mongolian religion, shamanism, and we had a chance to meet with Mongolian nomads and to live with them out on the Mongolian step. And so that was our first stop. And other stops from there, we went to India, all over India, into Mysore India. I lived with the Tibetans and exile in Darmsala. You Bangalore as well to see how tech was booming through Bangalore. So, we got flavors of all of India on that trip and it was spectacular. Oh, I lived at a Buddhist monastery in southern India for a few weeks too.

56:05So cool that you got to have those experiences when you were young and you were able to follow your curiosity, but it wasn't like you were a successful person or didn't come from a wealthy family, like you really got very lucky that you're able to have these experiences that are so exotic and so difficult to come by. Yeah, yeah, you know, and the US University of System really does provide that opportunity because I didn't need to pay any more tuition for this trip. It was the same tuition that I would have paid had I stayed in Tacoma, Washington, where my university is based. And these were extraordinary adventures.

56:53They were not luxurious by any measure. I was sleeping on pretty basic mats most of the time. And they kind of put the trust in us students to stay safe. there was certainly not too much handholding. We had to get around on our own. But they were extraordinary. And when I talk to young people today who say, well, I can't afford to travel. And I'm like, why? Well, let's look at it. And I'll literally sit there and start looking up plane tickets and hostels with them. And I encourage it. I encourage young people to go explore because it's in that exploration that you find out who you are. How many were in your group?

57:40There was a 20 of us total. That sounds great. It was amazing. It was transformative. So the first job was in Beijing and then what motivated you to come back? Or was that always the plan? It was always the plan. And you know, a year in Beijing was very exciting and the plan was to take what I learned in Beijing and apply it to the other side because there was a lot of curiosity in the early 2000s about how to safely transact intellectual property with China. And the popular opinion in the United States then was you have to be very careful. You can't, you know, the Chinese intellectual property system I'm still very young, it's very unpredictable.

58:33If someone, quote, replicates your invention without your permission, there's not a lot you can do about it. And so I felt that once I had built that community in Beijing, I could go back to work for a US patent law firm and help them navigate that environment. And I did. I helped cross -pollinate patent filings with my former employer in Beijing at every other law firm I worked at. Do you know the status of those connections now in terms of if you were to do that job today, would it be the same as it was when you were doing it? No, it's so much has evolved since then. And we live now in a world where intellectual property is such a big part of commerce that had it not evolved.

59:32We wouldn't be able to do the kinds of deals that we're doing at the scale that we are doing them now. One example is just manufacturing of electronic devices. is, much of that is based on trust from bilateral mutual respect of intellectual property. And it's not perfect by any means, but from where we were then, we have come so far. And I do think that innovation is one of the strongest tools for healthy diplomacy in anyways. And you know, if you can cross license and transact and be partners in the development of new technology, you often will find above that a government system that supports it.

1:00:25And so that's where we are today. And I think that going forward, there's going to be even greater understanding of what that looks like as we enter this AI age, artificial intelligence is going to force us to work together because we have to. It will force us because it is a very powerful tool. It's a very powerful technology and it poses very big risks. What are some of the risks? There's a number. One is that the AI is only as intelligent as how it's trained. And we're seeing that already at play, that some of these tools will give you answers that are really lacking, substance behind them.

1:01:15And if the results of AIR being presented as truth, it's going to require humans to go in and understand and verify what the sources of those truths are. And many AI systems don't provide a proof that is available for the consumer. And in order for us to conduct ourselves in a world in which we are relying on AI to provide a truth, that proof that we accept as being the source verifier, we are gonna have to come to consensus on what that looks like and we're not there yet. And actually interestingly, Stanford Codex, the group that I had gone to work for after law school, I'm not I'm still affiliated with as a as a fellow.

1:02:03Their focus right now is how to build ethics into AI. And there aren't many efforts going on right now on the planet dedicated to this. But I think it's the most important important thing we should be investing in is getting together multinational groups to talk about AI ethics. It's doable and we've seen what it can look like. You can design these humanistic verification systems that work in tandem with these AI tools. But those are going to require us to really focus on what that means. And it's going to take some very, very serious coming together to agree on those standards. Well, we don't agree on the standards without AI, so it seems like agreeing on the M .A .I.

1:02:57seems difficult. It's definitely difficult but not impossible in Denver. What are AI ethics? There's various camps of thoughts of what that looks like. You know, ethics as a field exists. Hank Greeley at Stanford from law school is a great ethicist. And as a profession, ethics has continued to evolve with humanity. It hasn't gone anywhere. It hasn't been written off as being a soft science that we don't need in the age of technology. It's here. It's very much intact. And I think one of the ways we can accomplish this is taking the professional ethicist and bring them into the field of AI. And we've seen some efforts around that.

1:03:46The challenge is that how do you take ethics and make it computational? And computational ethics is what will result in the regulation of AI eventually. That's how we get there. We take pockets of these professional thinkers, bring them into a computational AI group, and that computational AI group is what then translates into the regulatory bodies that oversee AI. To ethics represent what we aspire to or what is now? It's certainly the checks and balances of looking at where we are with innovation and coming together and really thinking deeply about is this ethical, call is this right, is this in the best service of humanity?

1:04:43And the law has actually been an incredible source of reference because it tests ethics through the judicial system all the time because many of our laws are based on that very same exercise. And so ethics is both something we aspire to but it It is in the fabric of humanity. It's in the fabric of Western civilization. It has always been aspired to. And it is something that carries with it a spirit that translates generation after generation. And I think the translation that we are feeling today is the feeling that we need ethics to catch up to where technology is. Do we witness ethics at play in nature?

1:05:36Nature is the ultimate source of all logic and reason. It is where life comes from. Life is deeply logical. It's deeply ethical. Nature relies on energy in a way that is very fair. It takes what it needs to do the task that it's genetically made up to do. And nature is remarkably resilient, as is ethics. I actually go to nature to check my own thinking on many of these issues. I oftentimes will take my shoes off and go sit next to a tree or land the grass under the sunshine. And interestingly, in recent years, I've been spending a lot of time trying to understand how nature works and how human biology interacts with it through some of the work my foundation does.

1:06:40And there's a profound scientific structure governing nature that is so efficient and so transactionally fair.

1:06:57You had several jobs in law offices after coming back. And then what was next? Well, then there was Stanford and they hired me to come on as a residential fellow to work on building the first AI patent lawyer. And so I spent two years at Stanford, you know, running around campus between the law school and the computer science department, because my center was joint, and trying to figure out how to bring the best and the latest in computation, old capacity to patent law. And I built a company called Clear Access IP during that time. PanClearXSIP was initially going to be an AI -powered patent management tool, and then it really turned into a way to look at the patent corpus and create a whole bunch of research resources.

1:08:00So one of our research resources was we built a huge molecule database of every molecule ever discussed by humans and registered as patents. And then, you know, it was actually also at Stanford that I had this coming home experience. I was approached by someone in Kamala Harris's office, actually who had worked with her and was in charge of technology for her office when she was in AG of California. And he approached me and he asked if I would be willing to help with the project with the San Francisco DA's office. And so I split my time between this project for the SFDA, helping them computationally review several thousand police reports because there was a blue ribbon panel dedicated to looking at these police reports because the police officers who wrote these reports had been identified as participating in a coordinated kind of text chat.

1:09:04and in that text chat there were just very overtly racist statements being made. And so they wanted to make sure, and I think this effort was very good, they wanted to make sure that there was no bias in their policing as a result of that. And they didn't have the tools to do it. And so they came to my department and they said at Stanford and they said, you guys are the only computational law academic group who can do this. Can you guys do this for us? And I said yes. And what came from that? What did you find out? So what came from that was we did notice some inconsistencies and how the reports were written.

1:09:43And we outlined those in a report that we provided to the SFDA. George Gascon was the DA at the time in San Francisco. And when it was made aware that that this was happening, he then, you know, was like, well, if there's a way for us to detect bias in these police reports, we want that up front as well. And I was like, wow, that's very interesting. I would love to work on that as well. And so we delivered the report to the Blue River panel. They had gone through it and they had identified all of these cases that they wanted the DA's office to review again because several of these individuals were still incarcerated.

1:10:24And so they went back and they re -reviewed them and it did progress many of those cases forward in a way that I actually didn't get report back. I'd only heard from the chief of staff there that it was it was helpful in them really thinking about for those cases re -reviewing them making sure that anyone still incarcerated was not wrongfully incarcerated and and then more broadly, they said that they wanted to make sure that there is a way to implement policies going forward that would be able to detect these irregularities. It then resulted in me as a philanthropist a year later setting up the Stanford Computational Policy Lab with Professor Sharon Goul, which has now since moved to Harvard.

1:11:13but while at Stanford they came up with all of these tools that various district attorney's offices had employed and one of my favorite is actually this tool that they were able to automatically redact any words in a police report that would indicate an individual's race, sex or age. So that tool has been implemented in a few places. When you started the IP company, how did the idea come to start the company? So, ClearX's IP grew from a project I had worked on at RPX in which we were looking at the portfolio of Nortel at the time. Nortel was a large Canadian and wireless company. And they had about 40 ,000 patents that were being auctioned.

1:12:13And that auction required a turnaround of evaluation of that portfolio very quickly. And doing a patent valuation analysis is very expensive and very timely and costly. And it takes a lot of smart people because you need experts in the technology and then you also need patent lawyers. And RPX had me managing the pieces of the portfolio of like what are the patents, what are they represent, how do we categorize them, and then let's bring on the experts and get the most reviewing through those pieces of the portfolio. And we did it almost all manually. And we had to turn it around and I think it was less than two months.

1:13:00And I was working, you know, 18 hour days at that point. And so the valuation that was produced through that was pretty far off of what the value of the portfolio ended up being. And it was off by I think hundreds of millions of dollars at the time. And like it wasn't like a travesty, you know, it was just like, well, that was the first bid, right? It wasn't a big deal. I wasn't. But it had me thinking that like if a group of buyers were willing to pay hundreds of more millions of dollars and what I came up with as like a starting price for the portfolio, there's got to be a better way to do this and you know separately, I was still managing the portfolio from like just a database standpoint and that still required manual entry and I was like, there's so much manual work that goes into all of this and there's got to be a way to automate it.

1:13:57So that was the genesis of Clarexocyte P was how can you both manage in real time using AI to manage these portfolios and then simultaneously how can you value them in real time? Because technology is very amorphous and so we created a tool to try to figure out how to do real -time valuation. What's the status of that company now? So I sold the company during the pandemic in 2020. So Clarex's IP was the AI for a larger company called IPWe. And IPWe has grown. And I believe the latest is that they're going through another restructuring. I mean, the AI that we had built and sold was early, right?

1:14:54We're just now doing LLMs for chats and searches. What we were trying to sell was an AI lawyer. And so I think, you know, it was very early and where it is now is that it's actually being restructured and put into another tool. But the industry is ready for it now. Whereas in 2018, it really wasn't ready for it. So it's still evolving. I was going to say it seems like the legal profession would be slow to embrace new technologies in general. It seems like a very old -fashioned profession. Yeah. I had a judge write to me after I'd published a piece called The Transition to Legal AI will be slow at first and then it will be sudden.

1:15:38And the judge wrote back this really poetic piece about Hamlet and how he was a lettie and could barely bring himself to enjoy a player piano.

1:15:53You know, I think that that part though was right and the article I wrote for the Daily Journal. It has been very slow to adoption, but I think given where AI is today and the influences that, you know, certainly open AI has had on the field is that moment of sudden adoption is happening right now. How did you meet Sergei? We met in 2014 at a yoga festival and we became friends and then when I started my job at Stanford. He loves Stanford. Gosh, this seems like so long ago, but he would come and visit me at my office. Our first meeting actually was very funny on campus because I was sitting in a cafe that had cartoon caricatures of all of Stanford's top grads and I happened to just sit under the caricature of him and Larry and he came to say hi and he pointed at it and he said, my teeth aren't that big.

1:16:57I looked up and I was like, oh my.

1:17:03What was your experience of the Google culture that you got to witness compared to other places that you've got to see? You know, I really was in Silicon Valley during its golden age and its rise. And that was around 2008 to where we are today. Certainly there was a lot of energy prior to 2008, but there was something that happened that was astronomical in Silicon Valley. And being around that, even at Stanford, it's kind of one community Silicon Valley. It's not just like there's Google. It's Google and Stanford, like it just mushes into everything around you. It's part of the culture and cafes that are in downtown Palo Alto.

1:17:54It's part of the culture of Sand Hill Road, which is where all of the venture capitalists are and people flock literally from all over the world to Sand Hill Road to meet investors. And so the culture in Silicon Valley is move fast, break things, fix those things and move fast again. That worked for a while, culturally and economically, but it's not really working the same anymore. And I see Silicon Valley going through this big, cultural shift. And it's not an easy shift, but it's an important shift because we're in a completely different chapter of Silicon Valley than of the Silicon Valley of the last 15 years.

1:18:45What, why do you think it is? What changed? I think what changed is how powerful some of these companies have become. From my perspective, being an academic at Stanford, being an AI professional, having been married to a founder of a very large tech company, I think that change is being mandated by how integrated technology has become in people's lives. Technology has found its way into nearly every corner of an individual's day. Such that I don't even know that the average person has any idea of when they're not using technology. Like that division, that boundary, it's been completely wiped out.

1:19:39It's ubiquitous. It's completely ubiquitous. I find it personally troubling. I think that from where I came from technology was a tool. It wasn't life. And now technology is life for many, many people. And I don't know that that shift. It kind of happened in almost a slow and city -sway. And not necessarily by intention. It's just, it happened. Tech got good at doing what it does. And that overtaking of the human experience by Tech is gonna make Tech and Silicon Valley understand its responsibility for people's lives. There was a story I read about a law firm that used an AI tool to create a brief that was used in court.

1:20:32And the example that they gave the AI made up was a fiction. Yeah, and that's why we need really strong verification tools that are being provided in tandem with the output of the AI. We laugh about that story at Codex, that Stanford, because that's a little bit of the moral hazard, right, of AI. That it makes things up. We don't know if it's making things up, right? We trust it. Yeah, well, if you trust it, then be aware. Exactly. And that's the moral hazard. We assume that these really smart people are making this stuff. And therefore, it's right. But the reality is that, you know, there's going to be errors.

1:21:19And there's going to be really big errors. And unless we have ethics and verification helping us get through that layer of error, we're going to create so much chaos in the world if we jump into AI too quickly.

1:21:40toy!