Owen Wilson

31:56It was nobody on the beach that day. And a lifeguard eventually came over and it's like my friend. I think he's out there and I like, no, he was smart enough to swim out and swim around. He's fine. But yeah, thanks. Yeah. Well, I've had that feeling, you know, the first time I went to Hawaii was Kauai. And probably like 28 and like, yeah, getting caught in the surf or couldn't get back in. And my friend running along the beach and he was having to sprint to keep up with how fast it was pulling me down. And it wouldn't let me out past where the waves were breaking or where I could like get my feet down.

32:34And it, I just felt like I'm drowning. It's so scary. It's so scary. And I remember getting where I was like, I just don't have any more energy to keep going under the waves holding my breath. And I'm just going to let it kind of hit me. And I barely got sort of my feet kind of touched and then pull me out again. But I was able to kind of get in and there were two local guys that came running down. And they, I remember them saying, bro, there's people way stupider than you that have drowned on this beach this year. They said something like that. But I remember just sitting on the sand before they kind of got to me.

33:15And it was almost like kind of like not quite crime, but like it was like an emotional feeling of just being spent and feeling that you came close. And yeah, so we both have had these experiences of where felt kind of scared like, you know, whether we really were close to actually drowning. I don't know, but it felt like, you know, I felt like I could have and you were shaken. And that certainly didn't keep me from swimming in the ocean probably the next day. And same. And also got hit in the face with a surfboard. And my nose was all bloody and like, I've had a bunch of stuff happen in the ocean, but I just love it.

34:07Yeah, I had a board hit me in Maui. And it was my own board where I kind of jumped off the back of the wave and went under. And when I came back, my board had blown up in the air. It was blowing so hard and came down just as I was coming up. And I had to get a bunch of stitches. But right, but that wouldn't you would think like, well, that might keep somebody from doing something. But yeah, I just, you know, I just love it. And also even my older brother being, you know, bit by a shark right in front of me. I didn't know that. Yeah, that happened. Andrew got bit by like a six foot black tip reef shark.

34:53Wow. And he's in the database for shark attacks. Wow. Yeah. And he, and that's right in front of where I live there on Maui. And he doesn't swim out there anymore. He still swims in the ocean, but he doesn't go out there. But I've, you know, I still go out there. And I also kind of feel, you know, now whether I would feel this in the moment, hopefully I could get to a place if you ever did get in a situation where I'm like, that's it. I kind of do have that feeling of, I love the ocean so much that if that was sort of my karma, which I don't think it is, but that's where I'm going to sort of, you know, that'll be kind of it for me.

35:47I'm okay with that. And, uh, yeah. Remember the night that you came over like two o 'clock in the morning after seeing the luminescence for the first time? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like we're trying to figure out how could, you know, we're wondering like it's, you know, thinking that it's kind of funny to continue doing something that you've had, you know, maybe a near death experience, but now we're bringing up something that, well, that's exactly why. Because one time I went swimming and I'd never heard about these phosphorescence in the water. So I go down for what I think is just kind of a, you know, I'm just going to jump in the water.

36:32It's night time. And I jump in and all of a sudden it's lighting up. And you're sitting in the middle of the night and the dark, the whole ocean is lighting up with every wave. No, not there every time I'd move my arms, every time I open my eyes. And just when I, you know, swim it lights up underwater and never heard of it. No one would ever told me about it. So then I came up afterwards and I looked like, you know, I'm sure like kind of like somebody almost like, you know, possessed or that it, you know, seen God. Yeah. I was, it just seemed like an unbelievable miracle I had experienced. And then, yeah, I found out that I guess that can happen, you know, sometimes in the water where those phosphorescence kind of light up.

37:29But if you've never experienced that, it is, I think one of the most incredible things. I think not knowing about it was the best part of your experience because when I told you what it was, you were not happy. Well, it was a little bit like, yeah, I thought I had experienced a miracle and you were saying, well, no, let me show you how this trick has done. It's this. And so it's a little bit of, uh, important dumping water on it. Yeah, kind of, uh, yeah, letting the air out of the balloon. I think, um, yeah, it's probably also kind of, I'm not somebody that, you know, when somebody does like kind of a magic trick where I want to figure it out, I have zero interest in figuring out.

38:17I want it to feel like magic and to feel incredible. And that's what I want to go with. I don't want to, you know, later, why do you think he did that? You know, uh, that doesn't interest me. It's so much better not to know. Yeah, feeling the mystery. But also, you know, phosphorescence. So that's something incredible that, uh, you can experience in nature. And I feel like even though I grew up in the suburbs in Dallas, a lot of being a kid was kind of riding your bike around the neighborhood going down, you know, to the creek, kind of just looking around for adventure, kind of mischief or something kind of exciting.

39:02And your whole life is kind of the daytime. And then as you become a, uh, teenager, you kind of start to see kind of the, the mystery and the excitement of night. And you kind of enter into that and forward, um, my 12 year old, I was dropping him off for this, you know, Halloween thing at his school and it was in the evening. And I kind of walked him in and you get in his friends were running around and the girls were there and they're, you know, starting to have kind of crushes and stuff and you could kind of feel this energy and it was like, okay, he's kind of entering into kind of, you know, that the night can kind of be unbelievable.

39:46And I feel now I'm coming out of the night. I spent a long time, you know, in the night. Uh, and now I'm kind of going back more towards it's a little bit like when you're, you know, a kid where I like being being up early in the morning, which I never liked. And it also kind of gives me a good feeling that like it's going to be kind of, it's great being back in the day. Uh, and being into that. It's great. Yeah. I'm saying same as you from the time that I was making choices, hunt my own. Yeah. I lived in the night. Yeah. And that switch tip waking up in the morning and changing my hours has been the greatest change of all in my life.

40:33And no one could have told you that. Like, you know, when we first became friends, you'd stay up till, you know, four or five, you'd sleep till, you know, one. Uh, and it was, you know, about, you know, trying to sleep is through as much of the day so you could get back to the night. Yeah. Like as you could. Yeah. And I could have, you know, I ended up on night and never go to sleep. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I could have, or someone could have said, oh, you're missing. Because I even remember people saying, yeah, if you don't get up, you know, uh, the morning you're missing the best part of the day, you just, no way you could get me to believe that.

41:14And, um, and I don't know then all of a sudden it just kind of flips again. Are we even the same people? Are we even the same, you know, yeah, I guess because I feel like it's a little bit of a return to how, in my case, I was as a kid. Where I feel I did notice nature. Like as a kid, you're just kind of more, you know, you're kind of taking things in and you pay more attention to stuff. Um, and, you know, you're just, because I think you're really looking at trying to figure it out. You're trying to figure it out and you're looking for some sort of kind of adventure or something, you know, fun to do.

42:00So everything you're looking at, you're looking at sort of, okay, could that be an opportunity to do something like climb that tree. And I wonder if we could like tie a rope to this tree. And, um, you know, what about like these like the bluffs here over this creek? I wonder if we could like climb up like you're just kind of looking, uh, or even just going down alleys and stuff. Uh, looking for stuff. And then now I notice a lot kind of just walking the dog like in the morning. It's like I've lived in this, you know, for over 25 years. And I'm just now noticing some of these trees in the neighborhood.

42:42Now you could take that as like a sad story like, God, he's lived here so long. He's never seen it. I don't take it that way. I take it as an exciting thing like how much other great stuff have I been missing, you know, that's out there that I'm going to start discovering or seeing because of course that's, you know, one of the best feelings you can have is that you saw something, you know, great. And the idea that there's more great things to see. Something really great about it always being there and being right under your nose the whole time and discovering it. You know, like you just found something.

43:20It's so cool because the fact that it's been there makes it much more interesting. Right. I got like, I also have this app that, you know, this picture this, it'll tell you like what the tree is and stuff. So that's kind of gotten me a little bit more, you know, I'll try to get the names. But I was thinking about a tree down the street from me that I've found out since is called a pearl occasion. But it is the greatest tree that I've ever seen. It was kind of blooming these kind of, you know, I don't even want to try to describe it. It's just great the way it looks and like it kind of is like a little bit silver the tree.

44:06But it's, you know, without getting like too sort of cosmic when I first saw it, it was sort of moving. You know, I was like, this tree is incredible. And you know, it made me think, you know, then and probably now as I'm telling it, you know, there's that eb white story, the second tree from the corner where the story begins where the guy's talking with his therapist and the therapist says, well, what do you want? What makes you happy? And the guy's like, I don't know, I guess no one really knows. And the doctors like, well, of course people know like for me, I want to build, you know, building an extension to my house.

44:53And, you know, and then the patient feels a little bit like, you know, insecure that he can't really say. And then later when he's walking home, he sees this tree and the way it's lit, you know, by the street light, it just, and it's a great description in the story. It looks so perfect and beautiful. He realizes, that's what he wants. The second tree from the corner and that he's glad that he's, you know, can't really explain to someone what it is he wants or what would make him happy. And so, yeah, I just always like that story, but seeing that tree, I could definitely feel, you know, that, like that tree is incredible.

45:39And it's great to be standing here, you know, appreciating it. So happy that I found it. And, you know, this also kind of about talking about trees that, yeah, Luke was telling me about reading about decooning a, I guess maybe in his biography, he was going to be, you know, honored back in the Netherlands. And he'd kind of left when he was young, didn't feel he fit in and, you know, he's going to be returning to get some award. And he was a little bit nervous because he hadn't felt that he really fit in when he lived there and was talking to his brother saying, like, I don't know if I'm, how I feel about coming back, I don't feel that, you know, that people really got me there.

46:35And I mean, I'm odd like, did they understand that, you know, I'm strange, I talk to trees. And I really like that story because, yeah, because you can, I haven't gotten to the point of talking to the trees, but I could see that maybe, you know, next year. Isn't it great when you're walking down, or you're walking through a forest and there are many trees around how certain trees just like, I'm not going to say they talk to you, but they call attention to themselves in a way that. This tree is different than all the other trees, like it just pulls you in like the tree that you just described. Yeah.

47:23And it's like, it really, yeah, it is kind of a, this old boy here is really in, like in Costa Rica, there are these big, big, huge trees that are covered in spikes have never seen a big tree covered in spikes before. And they're everywhere. Yeah. What do you mean spikes? Like little almost like what would be on a rose bush, except all right next to each other all over the tree and a big tree like, he like a big oak tree. So you're not going to climb. No, you can't. It's covered in spikes. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's why maybe it's a protection for animals not to get it. Yeah. Yeah. I remember being in India and I was like, there's, you don't see any real vegetation because everything gets kind of used up as like kind of a, you know, a resource for something.

48:23And the only stuff it seems like that would still be standing would have to have like incredible spikes on it. Yeah. It's in the way kind of protect it. But yeah, I still sort of sometimes will kind of look at trees in terms of, yeah, would that be a good climbing tree.

48:46I remember when I was in, in school studying art and seeing French impressionist paintings. And the way that the trees looked in the paintings where it was a series of colors, like there'd be a brown background, but then there'd be a big splotch of yellow. And there'd be a big splotch of like more of a mustard or a big splotch of kind of orange. And I was thinking at the time living in New York and seeing those trees in the paintings that, oh, that's part of the abstraction. It's like making, like these color, these blotches of color give an impression of what trees look like, but it's not accurate to the tree.

49:36And that's part of this style of art. And I thought that until I went to this, to this out the France. And I saw the trees with the blotches on them in person. It's like, oh, they're actually exactly. It's like a photograph of these trees. But because I'd never seen a tree like that in real life, I thought it was, you know, poetic. Yeah, poetic painting. Yeah. I didn't realize you like, did you major in art? I was a film and television major, but I took a lot of art classes. But I do kind of remember that, you know, the, was it your, your, your mom's sister was the one who would kind of take you to museums and, and that.

50:20And it's funny, you know, what do you think it is about art that does make people feel kind of a little bit nervous to talk about it? I guess because you don't want to sound pretentious. That's it. But it, it's too bad that we have that feeling, you know, but it can be pretty strong. I guess also the idea that you, you know, that you don't know necessarily what you're talking about. And so that can kind of inhibit. Why would it be any different than talking about a tree? I don't know. I think people feel that there's sort of their, you know, their street cred as a culturally literate person has kind of on the line.

51:14And in a way with, with, you know, paintings that doesn't happen with trees. But it shouldn't be, I'm just saying that just something that, you know, happens, it would be, it's a great feeling to sort of fight through and not to have. Just to be able to walk in museum and I'm as, you know, equipped as anybody to talk about this painting or not talk about it, but appreciate it or, you know, have a reaction to it. I can't remember if I ever told you a story, but I did this thing in New York where we brought a whole bunch of people. That I was working with in music to, um, a, a, a, and I remember it was a lot of like people in their 20s.

52:07And there were, you know, hundreds on the, on the staff of this company and we all went to MoMA. And I thought people who are working in music to reengage with, um, fine art would be a good thing. It'd be a good thing for everybody to just like tune into that. Yeah. And I remember the feeling of blankness on, on the faces of a lot of the people and feeling like, oh, wow, this was really maybe not a good idea. Yeah. And, um, and I got on an elevator with one of the people who seemed completely bored. And we get on the elevator and we're riding and he looked at me and he said, you know, I really want to thank you for setting this up.

52:53I haven't been in the museum since I was, you know, um, 12 years old. And it's amazing that I'm going to bring my whole family back this weekend. It's, it's blowing my mind. And I had, I just read it completely wrong because they had this blank look on their face, you know? That's kind of, I put that, you know, that you completely misread that person. Yeah. And that's like, you know, not having noticed the tree down the street. Like it can, I think that's kind of a, a good thing to sort of keep in mind is that you can sometimes completely misread things. And it's not, uh, you know, this sort of maybe negative take you have on it.

53:37Uh, in that case, like I had something where I was working, um, on a movie and in the scene, my characters with his wife and we're kind of these kind of, you know, kind of this white trash couple. And we're going to go into, uh, was stolen some money. And now we're going into, uh, into the mall to buy some stuff. And we're going to buy, you know, kind of, you know, ridiculous kind of things. Uh, and the director is pitching lines. Uh, and he pitches. Um, yeah, you can, uh, say, and we're going to, we're going to buy it. We're going to get you some braces to fix those horse teeth of yours. And it, and when he said it, uh, I felt terrible because the actress playing my wife and the scene she did kind of have, you know, her teeth didn't look a bit, uh, you know, slightly off, you know, and I was so embarrassed.

54:42And I could feel her flinch when he said that. Of course, I didn't say it in the scene. And then afterwards in the guy, the director is a really nice guy. But I went up to him afterwards. I said, you know, please don't ever put me in a position like that of saying something. I'm not going to say something to someone, you know, kind of mean, uh, like that. You might think it's funny, but I don't. And, uh, even for these characters and he, and he was like, uh, oh, yeah, yes. Yeah, I understand completely that I'm so sorry. Like, did you know those are fake teeth that we put on her? And I didn't know that she had fake teeth that they had put on.

55:30And so when I imagined her flinching, that's what it was. I was imagining that. And, uh, and if that does kind of happen with us, that might be a nice way. You can sort of, you know, when you do have the feeling of somebody doesn't like this or somebody, then, you, you just, you could be wrong. You could be completely wrong about it. And if you could be completely wrong, why not go with the good story? Yeah. Yeah, we never know. We never know what anyone was thinking. Yeah. And, yeah, but, but, yeah, I have a tendency to go more sort of, you know, thinking, you know, uh, you know, right. Yeah.

56:14We don't know. The story about the, um, the extension on the house. Yeah. It's interesting because in, um, you know, the Clint Eastwood movie, uh, unforgiven, the, the, his foil. I can't remember the name of the character, um, who's playing against Cliff, who's playing against Clint. But it's Gene Hackman's character. Yeah. And Clint's about to kill him. And he's like, but I was building an extension on my house. Like, do you know like how we can get, he says that? Yes. I thought he says this isn't fair. And he's like, fairs got nothing to do with. That's part of it too. But he says, but I'm building an extension like that.

57:03Like that, that we get so obsessed with the things that we're doing that here in this life and death situation. Yeah. Right. It's like, no, it doesn't make sense. I'm still doing this other thing. Yeah. So I'm sure whoever wrote the script got it from the E .B. White story. I wonder. Yeah. It's two, it's two on the nose. Are you sure it's that it's an extension on, because as soon as you said extension on the house, like, I know that reference. Yeah. Yeah. And that's not what it's about. But in both cases, it represents something like a small material action that seems important versus a bigger cosmic question.

57:52Yeah. Yeah. You know, when you sort of misspoke there for a second and said cliff, you know, you think about Clint Eastwood, because I know you've said that before that. Can you believe that Clint Eastwood walks this earth? Like, he's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. You know, that guy from High Plains Drifter, and, you know, Dirty Harry, all those movies, but then trying to think of, would he be the same person if that was his first name, cliff. It is hard to imagine that being the same person, which makes me think that I'd run into Steve Kuggen and Steve Kuggen was. It just finished, you know, playing a role.

58:40And he said that day had been, you know, been a fight scene. And he kind of said, you know, the person, please don't hit me. And I was trying to imagine Clint Eastwood ever saying that in a movie, please don't hit me. I can't really imagine that. That's more of a Ric Flair line. It's such a cowardly thing to say. I can certainly imagine one of my characters that I've played saying, please don't hit me. But you can't imagine Clint Eastwood saying it. And in fact, when you have Paul Newman say a version of that in Cool Hand Luke, it's a heartbreaking thing because it shows they've broken him when they kind of do that stuff like, you know, or they just keep him up for days and digging a hole and then put the what you're dirt doing in boss, you know, boss, I was like, oh, get that dirt back out.

59:38And then finally, I said, please don't hit me anymore. Please just and and it's it's just heartbreaking to see somebody broken.

59:50But yeah, I had that feeling with, I went through a phase where I thought it'd be fun to learn to ride a horse. Yeah, and I went with a friend, a friend's girlfriend who you know a long time ago, 25 years ago. Yeah. Yeah, who was really into horses and I went with her to wear to the stable where she rode and one of the horses escaped and one of handlers was grabbed the escaped horse and he was whipping the horse. And I started thinking about the whole idea of breaking horses and I decided I didn't want to ride like it was too much. It was too much. Yeah. Yeah, I don't even like sometimes, you know, when people will say, oh, you got a your dog, you know, a beading school or learn, I don't really want my dog, heel, you know, those sorts of commands.

1:00:51I don't really love when I see somebody with their dog, even if it is incredibly well trained, I don't love seeing heel. And you know, I would rather teach them, you know, something else or have them. Yeah, I just don't kind of, yeah, that's not something I kind of want to see. Yeah. The other side of it though is like we see from exercising that like having the discipline in a practice really feels good. Even though it's me, you know, like the doing of it, we don't necessarily look forward to the doing of it all the time, but what we get from the discipline of doing it feels really good. Yeah.

1:01:51And the, and maybe also to a dog, you know, they do sometimes want to learn something and want to, you know, or maybe like everyone want to kind of accomplish something. You know, and I'm thinking also somehow I started thinking about, well, you know, with my parents, it was, you know, kind of had to or big on manners and then I sort of try to do the same thing with my kids. Well, is, you know, I think that's kind of a good thing though, having, you know, good manners. But there is kind of an element to being a kid that I always remember in last angle in Paris in that scene where Marlon Brando's with the girl and, you know, they're kind of just laying around and she's saying, and clearly his response, I think, must have just, you know, not been scripted.

1:02:54But she's talking about how beautiful and innocent it is being a child, which of course is an adult. You kind of look back on in that way, which isn't, you know, necessarily true. And so she says that thing that everyone just sort of accepts kind of, yeah, beautiful being an innocent child, but Brando says, is it? And he goes, and she goes, yes, it's so kind of wonderful. And he goes, is it beautiful to be made into a tattletail or be forced to admire authority? And there's a big element of being a kid that's that, you know, certainly with school and stuff. And, you know, it's probably us talking about breaking horses and, you know, that there is an element of that.

1:03:46And so, yeah, you know, breaking, breaking everybody down so they'll kind of conform. How do you feel like your life would have been different if you never would have gone to any school?

1:04:01I think that I don't think that school is so important for, you know, what you learn because obviously, you know, it doesn't really stick with us or certainly I don't remember anything from geometry, you know, cosine, you know, that type of stuff. You're not going to remember, I think what is really good at the school I went to in Dallas, I was around, you know, smart kids and funny kids. And I think that is very valuable. And, you know, they had us reading good books and stuff. So I think, you know, maybe not getting great grades is so important. And that maybe just because I didn't, but I think there is something.

1:04:49The social aspects. Yeah, being around because it goes back to making connections. So, just being in some place where you can connect with people, I think is important. And so, you know, however that is or wherever that is, then, you know, I think that's kind of good. Did you have a lot of friends at school? It was more like one or two. I had a lot of friends kind of as like a little kid and then kind of into school and then in college, it was more just kind of a few. But I think that might also be, you know, what we kind of talked about earlier, it's easier, you know, to make friends when you're little, you're kind of more open.

1:05:42And then, you know, I don't know what kind of happens, but as you get older, you get a little bit more sort of blocked off. Or you kind of have your friends. Yeah, and you're kind of, you just don't maybe extend yourself or other people don't, you know, in that way. What did you study in school? I was an English major in college and I was reading something recently about how, you know, that's like dying out that major. There's an article about how, you know, it's dropped like 50 % and they're kind of even getting rid of it. Wow. And that everyone, I don't know, didn't mean business and stuff. I seem like it served you well, but like literature.

1:06:36Yeah, I don't know. I really feel that, you know, I, the stuff that I learned, the books, I kind of learned it, it almost seems like by junior year, I don't really remember. I didn't have a great class in college and, you know, with a teacher that like, well, that had a big impact on me. I did kind of when I was younger, but yeah, I don't know that I, you know, picked up that much in college. That's an interesting thing, the whole hit or miss teacher. You know, if you happen to be lucky to have one great teacher, it changes everything. Yeah. And so many of them, we don't get so much from. Yeah, I think it's just like anything.

1:07:28It's like, you know, we go to the library bookstore, you know, how many books are you going to pick up that you love or, you know, TV shows or movies that you're really going to connect with? And so, yeah, there's, you don't, and there aren't that many, you know, great teachers, just like there's maybe not that many great, anything really great. And then also, you know, it's, you can't maybe lay it all on the teacher. Sometimes it's where you are. You're not necessarily going to be open or responding to somebody. But, and there's back to that kind of that, you know, brand -o thing. There's an element of school that's about sort of being forced to admire authority.

1:08:17And following me. Yeah, that you can sort of see as kind of ridiculous or that you can kind of, you know, but heads against. And I think, you know, I think sometimes, yeah, you know, emotional intelligence is not going to be rewarded in school the same way a kid who's like, okay, so you want me to do the problems like this, this, and this, and then hand it in. And, you know, you know, that, that kid is going to do better than a kid that's, you know, powering back, and then the kid who, you know, is going to give a colorful answer to a banal question touching off laughter among the other students.

1:09:17That kid is not going to be below the teachers. Sounds like the introduction to your autobiography. Well, I was just thinking of a kid that the history teacher also taught was the baseball coach. And this is maybe in, you know, seventh grade when he'd turn around to write something on the chalkboard. This kid, Chris, would stand up and do like a little dance. The teacher would turn around real fast and just caught him this one time as he's sitting back down and, and the teachers like, well, Mr. Kaiser, that's, that's two strikes on you. Do you know what happens next? And Chris said, I don't know, so I don't follow baseball.

1:10:18Great line. I know in the, and Mr. Bachelors exploded. Yeah. Get out of here. Yeah.

1:10:32And, yeah, I had a teacher that got, I remember furious at me. Yeah, I mean, you know, you could see how, yeah, you could get on the nerves of some of these guys.

1:10:47But there's also something I think that's another fun thing about school. You're talking about, whoa, how would your life have been different? Well, you don't get a story like that unless you're in school in kind of an authoritarian place, you know. And I went to kind of like a progressive school, but the way stuff is set up, it is, you know, you're going to listen to this and you're going to be quiet now. And there is something in those situations that can be a good, you know, fertile ground for coming up with funny stuff. Remember how great it was when they would bring in the movie projector and show a movie in class?

1:11:26It's the best feeling in the world, right? So much fun. Yeah. Even if it was bad, it was good. Exactly. I remember like, you know, when they were, or, you know, saying on the radio like snow days going through and this school is not meeting in this and waiting, you know, to see if your school is going to, you know, if you're going to get the day off and just, it's the best feeling in the world. And it's sort of like that, you know, right? If every day, that's also maybe something good sometimes about work is it makes you, you know, oh, it's all the weekend is a lot more fun. If you've had to work, you know, the other days, you appreciate a lot more.

1:12:12I remember when I was a kid, I broke my legs skiing only the only time I've been skiing my whole life, I broke my leg. And I didn't have to go to school for like six weeks. And it was the greatest. It was just the best. And you didn't hate school either, did you? No, but not going to school, being able to watch TV during the day was unbelievable. Yeah. What do you think it was? It's just like, I mean, think about it. Showing up to anything is hard. Yeah. Yeah. Just showing up. Yeah. Which is why they say a lot of times. Half of life is just showing up. Yeah. There's a great thing. Russell Brand has this, an audiobook.

1:13:01I think it's only available as an audiobook. And he talks about being invited to something that sounds great, you know, in two months, two months from now, there's this event. And you, it sounds great. And you agree to do it. And then the two months come. And it's the day of it. And you're regretting it always. Yeah. And he said a good thing that he does now is that anytime he gets invited to do anything in the future, he always thinks about it as if I have to go right now and do it. To weed out the reality of, you know, the, because two months from now, everything sounds good. Right. I just had that.

1:13:40Yeah, where I had kind of been asked about doing a commencement. And, and I had been asked a couple times years ago. And it kind of, no, no, I, I chickened out. And this time when I was asked, I was like, okay, maybe I'll do it. And then as I really thought about in a couple months and I've got said, I can't do that. But I did say, you know, if we could, you know, maybe plan ahead maybe next year. And they said, yes, we'll do it next year. And I was, you know, so really great, you know, because it seems so far away. Yeah. But I'm sure, you know, as I get up close, it'll be, what was I thinking?

1:14:24Yeah. But sometimes it is good to make yourself do stuff. Absolutely. You get surprised. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So there is something to be said from being made to do something that you don't want to do. Absolutely. So today being a perfect example. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You know, I wonder also if, you know, you said you were a little bit like nervous in the beginning. Maybe you picked up on me kind of. Yeah. I don't know if I really want to go do this. And I think part of the struggle is, you know, we talked about kind of connections as that. Okay. So we've been friends for a long time. And you know, sometimes we can get on a roll where we're really having fun talking and really get laughing about something.

1:15:10And that's great. And I, you, yeah, you'd love to be able to get that. But then it just seems like too big a mountain to climb. How are you ever going to get, you know, be able to communicate some of those things to somebody. And it just gets discouraging it. To me, it's like learning like another language. Like I'll think about God, I would love to be able to speak, you know, anything, you know, Spanish, French, Italian. It would be so great. And then I think about it was so hard for me to learn English and get all the, you know, because I think I do pay attention to language. And, you know, when you kind of, you know, when you kind of get like a good word and the idea of starting over in a new language just seems like, you know, climbing Mount Everest.

1:16:06And so maybe that was kind of the feeling like, you know, like, yeah, how we ever in this sort of format going to talk, get to where it feels just like talking in real life. And maybe that was sort of, you know, a little bit of it. I don't know. Yeah, it might have been an unrealistic expectation. Yeah, right. It just is whatever it's going to be. And any expectation you put on it is just gets in the way. Yeah, exactly. And also, I mean, we've had experiences where we're really laughing about something and the people around us are like, I don't know what they're talking about. But whatever it is, I guarantee it's stupid.

1:16:54Yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah, because I remember us like there was some, you know, right going to eat and there was some sort of miraculous coincidence that it occurred to you that you relayed to me that I was just blown away by. But our dinner companions, they didn't seem to think it was much of anything. Not a plus. Yeah, I'm on plus to the extreme. And so, yeah. That's a really funny thing too. Like seeing something so funny and someone else doesn't see it at all. There's something really funny about that too. Yeah. About the miscommunication or the not getting it. The miscommunication and not being understood or failing.

1:17:49Yeah, there's something. Yeah, I think that can be. That's really. And I think that because it can tap into sometimes that futility that we all can sometimes get hit with that kind of sycophine sort of. Yeah. You know, what's the thing? We lost the race a thousand years ago. Exactly. And but then when you're able to, you know, I don't know, I do, I think that is kind of another nice thing about the way that they have kind of the game rigged is that failure can be really funny. And, and luckily, yeah. Well, we had that experience together where we went to a meeting at a big company talking about an idea that we were excited about and was not well met.

1:18:55No. Not only that, we going into the meeting, I don't want to say it was a case of, you know, Icarus, but we really felt, you know, we had another person with us for the meeting. And that this was there going to be kind of blown away. Absolutely. By these ideas that we had really. I thought they weren't going to let us out of the office. I don't know. We just going to hold us there to keep working on it. First of all, just when we showed up, I thought they were going to rush down to greet us, which didn't happen. Yeah, I think they're going to roll out the red carpet. Yeah. Did we wait about an hour?

1:19:35It felt like they kept just waiting for like an hour and just all my confidence just disappeared. You know, the place where we were waiting, the feeling was it was closed. Like I felt like they invited us there before like an hour before they actually open. Yeah. Remember? Yes. It was like a. And it was like a hospital like a. It was like you know, body there and it was very white and minimalist and it was it was really like that. A cavernous space with no people for a long time for an eternity. Yeah. Yeah. And then kind of there's that Fitzgerald thing that he wrote about visiting his wife who had kind of lost her mind.

1:20:22And he said, I lost my small capacity for hope on the small roads leading to Zelda's sanitarium. And I felt that we lost our small capacity for hope and that waiting room that day. And then we go into the meeting and even before the meeting, we were walking into the meeting. And you shared a very funny story of something that just happened to you. You prompted me to share that I didn't believe was going to land well with with these executives. And I was right. You were right. It didn't land. No. In fact, they took the other side. Yeah. Of like an argument that I had had. And then we go into the meeting and I maybe said a couple sentences.

1:21:15And then I just sort of faded away. And I don't think you said I just shut down. I don't think I said anything. No. I could see. I just got all glassy too. Yeah. That was just bombing. And then you, I think we're barefoot. And so I also was thinking like, what were we thinking? Like how could we think that we could come in here? And, you know, we've got no business in here. We don't belong here. And luckily, the other guy with us did kind of, you know, kept talking. And he actually said it went great. We should say the third guy with us who was experienced versus us. I believe was wearing pajamas.

1:22:07Right. And maybe like a Fez cap or something. I don't know. Maybe the pajamas were a bad sign. Yeah. And again, that's, you know, I've, you know, been in pitch meetings, you know, a lot over the years. And that continues to be one of my, you know, most memorable. And it couldn't have gone worse. But like we were saying, there's something kind of funny about us. We're failing with, yeah. Like you're swinging and nobody even pitched. Yeah. Just like swinging at the wind. A thousand years behind. Running a race that ended a thousand years ago. Running your heart out. Not realizing that you'd been laughed a million times.

1:23:04That was incredible. But tell me about your mom when you were a kid. Oh, yeah. You ever go to her photo shoots? Yeah. Well, I did because when she was working with Richard Avidon on the in the American West project, that went on for 10 years where, you know, it'd go out for, you know, weeks at a time to, you know, different places in the West and rodeos and, you know, just visiting different places to find people to photograph. So a couple summers, I went with them when I was a kid and, yeah. But I mean, yeah, I mean, my mom, right, my mom's a photographer. And, you know, I kind of associate with interrupting you a lot, you know, when you're playing or doing something to take a picture.

1:24:03So didn't love having my picture taken. I still don't love it. Love it. But, yeah. Do you get to meet Avidon? Yeah. I mean, I got to meet him. I got to meet him aton because I was like, he had a lot of kind of enthusiasm and, you know, kind of energy. And it's also kind of cool looking guy. And so when, you know, I don't know how he dressed in New York, but when he came out for these, he had, you know, boots that he wore and a cowboy hat. But not like a big cowboy hat, kind of more like one of those LBJ color. And size. And so he kind of looked cool. And then I, he loved those Louis Lamore Westerns that I read a ton of.

1:25:04And so he would send me those. And, you know, boxes of them. And so we kind of connected over that. And he even sent me Warren Peace, which I still haven't read. But along with all these Louis Lamore Westerns, and this is probably when I'm like 12, with a note saying, you know, this is a book that I love. And, you know, it might be, you know, advanced for you now. But maybe at some point, you'll, you know, want to take a look at it. But yeah, so we kind of, yeah, I really liked him. And he did, yeah, he did some photographs of me and my brothers that my parents were really excited. Because, you know, it's Avidon.

1:26:01And, you know, he'd been on the cover of Newsweek. And the idea that he was going to do these portraits of us was like a big deal. And I remember he sent them to us for Christmas. And my parents were kind of excited. And when they kind of opened them, the pictures were a little bit sort of in that mode of in the American West. It wasn't the same kind of photographs that my mom did of us, you know, for Christmas cards. And what she tried to show, which was maybe this sort of, you know, idealized version of kind of boys like, you know, having fun in this. And his pictures were a little bit more kind of unusual.

1:26:50And then later when, you know, we start getting into trouble as teenagers and stuff, my dad would kind of think back to those Avidon photographs and say, that's what made Avidon a genius. He could see what was coming with you guys. That's great. Because he wasn't showing us these kind of fun loving. Yeah. Yeah.

1:27:24But, yeah, you know, what was your relationship with your dad like when you were a kid? You know, it's hard to kind of, you know, I came across like a note that my mom wrote my aunt. And she's talking, and you know, I must be really little because Luke's not born yet. But she's talking about my older brother and me. And she's saying, Owen and so I'm probably like two or three, you know, maybe just turning three. And she said, Owen has a very idolized as Bobby, my dad, and has a very zany sense of humor and doesn't like having the same books read to him twice, which is kind of funny because it does seem like kids like having the rapture.

1:28:19But so when you ask the relationship with my dad, I think I did kind of idolize my dad. But I think both my brothers did. Also, he just was really funny. Also, you know, you kind of were, you know, nerfed, you didn't want to like, you know, step out of line too much. But just a really, I don't know, just a great guy. So if something was bothering you, if something happened to you, my dad was a great person to talk to. I think he was like a sensitive kind person, which, you know, didn't mean he was like a pushover at all. You know, and so that's what I mean about sort of expecting you to sort of, you know, have good manners and, you know, behave in a thoughtful way also.

1:29:16But I think a big thing was also my dad's friends. He had these great friends that I just thought were really, you know, funny kind of charismatic guy. So kind of sitting there at dinner and kind of seeing my dad with his friends and seeing them kind of joke around. I think that had a big influence on us. And, yeah. I remember there was a story where you had a job when you were a kid. And you thought that if you could make them believe that you weren't that smart, they would give you less work to do. Yeah. I think that's continued a little bit in sort of life and in my career lowering expectations, which is, you know, what we're talking about.

1:30:08Doing better when, you know, when you kind of there's less pressure. And so in this job, I was a runner in college at a law firm and they'd send me out to, you know, go pick up something and bring it there and get something, come back with it. And I'd always kind of, you know, you know, make them kind of explain it a couple times. And usually when I was out doing it, I might stop by the magazine stand and kind of read for a while. And anyway, one time I'm coming back into the office through the back door. And I hear the assistance on secretaries talking and, and one is saying, he's just so stupid.

1:31:04Like you, you tell him something like he's like, uh, wait, so you want me to go down that street and then go right in her imitation of me was so dumb sounding. Made me sound like, you know, you know, Lenny from a Mice and Men that, uh, I even though that had been, you know, what I was trying to do with lowering expectations, I was still my feelings were hurt when I came in and heard this imitation. And, um, and my pride was such that I quit the job on the spot. So, it's so funny because you were purposely trying to make them think you weren't smart enough to do much. Right. And they believed it.

1:31:59And you quit based on them thinking you weren't smart enough. That's the thing. Amazing story. Yeah. Yeah. Did you always, uh, always like hanging out in bookstores, even as a kid? Yeah. I mean, I remember, um, you know, we're talking about my mom being a photographer and she had some photography books come out. And my dad did some books, but my dad kind of being in advertising and public relations, he would go up to the bookstore and always be kind of, you know, on them about. Displaying my mom's book in such a way. Um, and I just always remember as a kid, I even remember, yeah, the names of the bookstores.

1:32:43Um, I just always love going to bookstores. Well, because they usually also had magazines too. So that was fun to see. But even as a little kid going up to my grandmother's, there was something called the bookmobile. Uh, that was kind of like, you know, you did. Yeah, sorry. I'm going into that and getting books and, um, yeah, I just, uh, I, I loved reading. And it wasn't anything, uh, you know, like for school or anything, it was just what I was interested in. Yeah, just a little library all the time as a kid was my favorite place to go. I don't, I don't remember that there being a bookstore in my little town when I was growing up, but the library, I would go to all the time and just, um, anything that I was interested in, I would stay all day and either read the books on the subject I was interested in or, or get like, um, microfilm of old, or, uh, either newspaper articles or it was just so interesting that I'd be able to go back in history and look at something that happened 50 years ago.

1:33:51Yeah. Just interesting how it was reported. Well, it's kind of flipped for me because your time, you know, subjects you were interested in. So as a kid, I was just reading fiction. So it was any sort of, you know, I love these, the great brain that those series of books and, uh, hardy boys. In Cycleopedia Brown, we talked about the Louis Lamar Westerns, those SE Hinton books. But, um, and then there are a lot of these sports books about like a kid dealing with something that I think it's Matt Christopher was that author. So there are just like kind of kids books that, that I loved reading. Hardy boys.

1:34:34Yeah. The hardy boys. I had all those. I love those. And they're chum chat. Jalopy. But, uh, and that's actually fun, you know, now with, uh, with my two boys is reading stories to them. I haven't noticed, you know, either of them, you know, reads on their own the way I do, but they do like still, uh, having me read at night or make up stories. But, you know, we read Shane. That was something I read in seventh grade that I loved. They were really into that. They were, were, you know, on Treasure Island now. Uh, and, uh, and those books hold up. They're good. But anyway, I was talking about how the way it kind of flips.

1:35:26So yeah, as a kid, I loved reading, uh, you know, those. And then sort of in college, I kind of, it was then sort of reading about something I was interested in. So, you know, I could have a paper on, uh, you know, the Berlin Air Lift. And I'd go to the library and, you know, all of a sudden, you know, every subject. But that was really interesting. So a history of backgammon. Let me read about that. Uh, and so, yeah, that, and you could just spend so much time in it. Um, I don't know. It's also probably, you know, I think that's a nice thing about museums. People quiet, looking at things. Maybe even the people that you meet there, there's usually a quiet gentle.

1:36:19Nist to the people that's nice, uh, to be around. And, uh, I think that can be relaxing. Uh, and, uh, yeah. Should we go eat? Yeah. It's great. Yeah.

1:37:08Yeah.