Tom O'Neill

27:37But that was part of the course with this. I mean, almost, I would have those kinds of interviews once a week. I mean, I became so much more cynical about the world. And I was 40. The day I got the assignment was a day after my 40th birthday. And I thought I was the most sophisticated all -knowing for a kid. I lived in New York for years and years, and I'd been reporting on entertainment. But boy, I was naive about how the legal world law enforcement worked. I mean, I knew there were bad cops. I didn't know how many bad cops. I knew there were bad prosecutors. I didn't know, wow, how many. You know, how you really can't trust almost everything you're told.

28:17So I became much more skeptical. and I was romantic about, you know, 1967 -68, the free love and the hippie movement. I bought the story about, you know, love beads, a long hair and happy drugs. Was there any part of it that was real or was the whole thing a sigh up? I wonder, I still don't know whether the, see, I know the C .I. was behind, you know, experimenting with LSD in the United States before anybody else got access to it. But did they do what people think they did in the hate and distribute it? I'm not sure. When did they come into your story? Oh, God. In your research, when was the first clue?

29:00It's like, hmm, there's something bigger going on here. So Vincent's book has one little paragraph in the epilogue of the book, or a culture sculptor, where he's wrapping everything up. And there was an update like that he had written 10 years after I think. And in the apologue, he says, even though he was able to convict everyone and show that they killed the people that he believed they killed, he said, the one thing I will never know, and that we might never know is how Manson was able to get these kids. Mostly, 90 % of them had no criminal records. Most of them were under the age of 23, 24.

29:45Most of them were women. In under a year to be able to control them to the point where they would go out and kill strangers for no reason just because they were told to and have no remorse and even laugh about them after. and he says, is there some hidden switch, some secret? Did he learn this on his own in prison, or was he taught by others? And I had, you know, that was one thing I highlighted the first time I read the book. And he said, we might never know. And at the point that I found out that there was this, I mean, in Heltor's Skelter Vince Harley talks about Manson's first year out of prison in 67 in the hate.

30:27When he became, you know, He transformed from this kind of uninteresting light -time con man who had been in and out of federal institutions half of his life into this guru with this beautiful women, not all beautiful, but some of them following him, not speaking unless he spoke to them first, doing whatever he said all in under a year. He created that monster or guru, whatever. And when I found out there was so much stuff that we didn't know about that year, I went up to the hay and started exploring who we at contact with. I found out about the free medical clinic. And I had never heard of M .K.

31:08Ultra, which I think you must know about, you know, the secret mind control problem by the CIA. This was really in the early days of the internet. It was like 2000, I think. So I would Google and there wasn't nearly as much information out there. And I started hearing about this program. And then I interviewed someone who I just, when I was waiting for you to come in, I was looking at Twitter and Alex Jones just tweeted about him today. A guy named Tag Gunderson, who was a former FBI agent who left the agency in the, I think, late 80s and started lecturing and writing and saying there was this secret cabal of child predators, you know, and really, really crazy stuff.

31:56Now, I knew that he had worked peripherally on the men's in case, and that's why I interviewed him. While I was talking to him, the one or two times I met with him in 2000, he brought up MK Alchair and told me a little bit. This is Ted Dunnerson. Ted Dunnerson, yeah, a little bit more about it than I knew. And he said, you should look into a psychiatrist named Louis Jollion West. And I said, I actually interviewed him about five years ago. I lived in New York and the magazine would send me out here. And it was one of the investigative pieces I did. It was on the phenomenon of celebrity stalking.

32:32So Madonna had just had her house broken into by a guy who wanted to kill her. And it was a famous story where Becca Schaefer had been murdered at TV actress a year or two before. So I came out from New York and spent a couple of weeks interviewing a few actresses who have been stalked. And authorities, cops, people who dealt with that world, and one of the people I reached out to was as professor at UCLA named West, because he was an expert on the criminal mind. And he was a neuroscience, the director of their neuroscience. At UCLA. At UCLA and the head of psychiatry. And it was a bad interview.

33:11I mean, I got there on time and he was about 45 minutes late. I was waiting in his office. He came in, didn't apologize. guys, what do you want to know? So I said, well, before I could even ask a question, he started lecturing me about the subject, because if I was in a class, you know, UCLA, I tried to stop him to ask a question. He wouldn't let me. And then we're done and he told me, all right, we're done. I said, I haven't really gotten asked any questions. Obviously. Describe him. What do you look like? A large guy. Had a beard. He was probably, and it was a 92 or something, so he was probably about early 70s or he died the year I got the assignment.

33:51His son later wrote a book about it, his son did assist his suicide with both his father and his mother. A year or two apart both of them had terminal diseases and his son gave them drugs and then wrote about it. Are the books about that or about their lives? The son's book is really about his making the decision first to do it with his mother and then to do it with his father, but there's a lot of biographical information in there and I had tried reaching out to all three of Jolly's kids, I mean five years into this. I got close to getting one of the daughters to meet with me but she changed her mind.

34:29I talked to John the son who basically said we are not allowed to talk about my father's career even though he's not alive and I can't talk to you, I'm sorry. He died. I think the year my book came out and to this day I haven't been able to find out how he died. I mean he wouldn't have been more than 60 as mysterious as his father. Charlie did a lot of press over the years, a lot of interviews and stuff. So there wasn't anything stunning in his book except the fact that nobody knew that he had done this.

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36:33How do we know about Jolly's relationship to the CIA? So Ted Dunderson told me to look into it at that meeting and I told him, well, I interviewed him about the stalking phenomenon of what I can listen to as interview because I never nothing interesting in there. Oh, I looked them up and found out he had died, I think within months of me learning about him. What I was starting to do then was even though I was getting these exclusive interviews with people who had never talked. You know, they're telling you stuff and it's 30 years later, the memory plays tricks. People also want to make themselves more important in stories.

37:15I realize I'm getting nuggets of important information, but I need to corroborate it. And that's when I started really chasing down documentary, you know, original police reports, case files. So with Jolly, I found out that he had been at the Haydashbury Free Medical Clinic the same summer that Manson was going there on a weekly basis first to get medical care for the women who had sexually transmitted in -hit him, who had sexually transmitted diseases and also for drug issues. and then his parole officer was doing drug research there. He started having his parole meetings there. Well, Jolly had an office there at the same time.

37:53I called up UCLA and he had been there. He had been at University of Oklahoma before UCLA. But he had gone to UCLA coincidentally in 69. You're the murders happen. He'd been there until he retired. So I knew that they were the repository of his papers. So I contacted them and they said we have, I think they had 160 boxes, but none of them have been processed. And I said well I have a magazine deadline and it's due in a couple months, which is kind of true back then. And I don't know I guess Charlotte, the woman in charge of special collections took a liking to me. And she said all right, I'll assign some grad students and we'll start releasing them, but we'll just a couple at a time.

38:38So I started looking in his boxes. It took me months, I go to that young library every day, go down there and just, I was looking for a needle in the haystack because I just felt like there were too many coincidences. What were the kind of things that were in the papers? Well, West had been accused from the very first report of the existence of MK Ultra in 75, 76. He had been accused on the front page of the New York Times as being one of seven or eight university professors who have been contracted by the CIA to perform mind control experiments on subjects without their knowledge. Without the subject's knowledge.

39:18Yeah, without consent and without the university's knowledge. In the case of Wes also the Air Force base where he was before he went to Oklahoma and West denied it and West said he had been approached by Sydney Gottlieb who was the founder of and K. Ultra at the CIA and he ran it from 52 to 72. What was Sydney Gottlieb's job? He was ahead of technical services. He was a chemist. So he, with Alan Dulles, who was a director and Richard Helms, who was an assistant director, they created MK Ultra in 52, 53. Did you get to meet any of those guys? Richard Helms was still alive, wouldn't talk to me. Sydney Gottlieb was alive for about a year, but he lived on a commune in India, and I couldn't get information for him.

40:01That's interesting. Dallas was long dead. Yeah, it's a lot interesting about Gottlieb. What do you know about him? Well, there was a book that came out after mine called Poisoner Inchef by a New York Kindreporter, Biography of Gottlieb. He doesn't, I don't think he has anything that wasn't already available in the public. There's not a lot of books about MK Ultra, but the very first one is called The Search for the Manchuring candidate. It's by John Marx, who was a state department employee, like a clerical guy, who came across these financial files in a warehouse off site of the State Department and he saw they were all funding at the time Oklahoma where Jolly West was and these other places to do this research.

40:46It was very vague, it was just financial records, not what was done. He brought that to a congressman. One of the congressmen called up is Seymour Hirsch and Seymour Hirsch was the one who reported it for the first time. There were congressional hearings. West was, so was he a whistleblower? Would you call him a whistleblower? John Marx? Oh, absolutely. And he wrote this authoritative book, The First and Best. Explain what a mentoring candidate is. Oh, okay. You know when the name comes to you? Yeah, the name comes from a book, a novel by Richard Condon, who is believed to have been part of the agency in some capacity.

41:23He wrote it in the early 60s. It was about a program, a hypothetical program run by the United States government to create people who would use the brainwashing skills that we knew, the Chinese and the North Koreans and the Russians had developed that we started developing too in the 50s. But the ultimate goal of each of these foreign countries, including our own, was to create a program to assassin. He might have invented venture in Canada, Venturia, China, who was played in the first movie, the Venturian Canada by... Frank Sinatra. Yeah, I think it was Frank Sinatra, and Lawrence Harvey, who would kill when triggered, in that case, I think, a playing card, a Queen of Hearts or something.

42:10Angela Landsbury was the mother. Yes. So that movie came out right before John F. Kennedy was assassinated, and they pulled it from the theaters, But he's the one who created it, but nothing was written about MKUltra. Nobody knew it existed. He didn't call it that until John Marks blew the whistle, barred to Congress. They had three hearings, Frank Church hearings beginning in 75 for two years. They exposed the existence of this program that had been the most highly funded of all the CIA's programs to that day from 1952 to 7273 upon closing it. Richard Helmshoop by then was a director of the CIA, and Sydney Gottlieb destroyed all 20 years of records and had it not been for marks stumbling upon these files and 75, no one would have known about it.

43:00Why do you think they destroyed the records? Oh, because there was crimes. I mean, number one, the CIA's by charter. They're not allowed to do anything on American soil, domestically. They were doing experiments on prisoners, on people at Air Force bases, on people in brothels in San Francisco, and New York who were lured into these apartments that had one way mirrors where CIA scientists would study them as they were dozed with LSD by prostitutes who had been hired by the CIA. It was called Operation Midnight Climax. So it was illegal. People had, who knows what kind of damages were done. And West, on the front page of the time, said, Sydney Gottlieb had approached me about using LSD, unhuman beings as a part of this.

43:48And I said number one, LSD, when people are in LSD, you can't control them to do anything. And I would never administer it to anyone, but animals. I only do animal experiments. They were all lies, you know. And from then, 75, 76, 7, West had never been challenged. They gave him the benefit of the doubt. He wasn't investigated. People like at UCLA at the school newspaper would ask him about it or write about it, and he would go ballistic denying a threaten to sue them. I have about six or seven articles that appeared over every two or three years until he died, where it would come up and west with threaten to sue if they published that it wasn't true he said.

44:29So I went in there with nobody ever being able to prove he had anything to do with this, and I found the needle in the haystack, and it was letters. At that point he's dead. So I'm I went to the boxes and I think it was about three months in. And I was just miserable because there was nothing in the index or finding guys. I'm getting a two or three boxes every three or four days. And then I found - You don't know what you're looking for, right? I was looking for evidence of him and Manson being somehow together or him and MK Ultra. So I found these letters and the first one was about 10 pages.

45:05And it was from him to Sherman Grifford in that. that was sitting at Leib's alias. Now, I had heard the name Sherman Griffey because it's in John Marx's book from 77, The Manchuring, Kennedy. I had already gone through it. And I go, these letters sound like a blueprint for MK Ultra. Unredacted, they're describing the experiments they're gonna do at that point, at Laquan Air Force Base. And he said he's gonna try to create fugue states. He's gonna try to create amnesias. he's going to try to induce insanity. And his ultimate goal was he said to replace true memories with false memories without a person's knowledge.

45:48And I said, but who's Sherman Grifford? And I went back and I got Marx's book. There were like three books about MK Ultra at that point in print, 2000 or whatever it was 2001. And in the footnotes of Marx's book, it says, Sherman Grifford was an alias Sydney Gottlieb would use to correspond. So then I knew and I went back and then I found about eight different letters from 52, 53, till about 56, 57. The last one was a report where he said he had successfully developed the technology to remove true memories and replace them with false memories using a combination of hypnosis and drugs without a person's knowledge.

46:30I mean, that was what the CIA needed to do from the first place. They wanted to program people to kill and then have that memory removed that kind of thing. So I was the first one to be able to say, all right, this guy was lying all these years. That was kind of a eureka moment for me. And to this day, I was so close to giving up, you know, they kept giving it and I found it. And they're still there. You say, okay, because since my book has come out, researchers go there all the time now. And I said, they should just put them out on display so you guys don't have to find them. but I tell them exactly where they are.

47:06Because West did not intend for those to remain. He probably had graduate students organizing and stuff before he died, and he probably didn't look closely. It was careless. But that was what enabled me then to kind of take that leap into like was Manson taught this, or did Manson somehow benefit from his knowledge? Then I was trying to find out whether Manson was. And how do we know that he's not doing this as a kooky professor, but in fact doing it for the US government? Oh, because in the letters. In the letters he discusses with Gottlieb how he's gonna hide the funding from the CIA, from Gottlieb, from his own superiors.

47:48When he was at Lacklin, six months into his research, he tells Gottlieb he has to fire the commander at Lacklin because he's become too inquisitive about his experiments and they removed the guy. That guy went on to become the secretary of the Air Force, I think. Very well known guy, after they moved him to another base, he never knew why. I called him to say, do you know why you were moved from Lacklin in 1953 or 54? He said, yeah, it was just a transfer. I go, I have something to show you. He said, I don't want to see it. I don't want to know about it. And he wouldn't talk to me. Wow. Yeah. So, Gottlieb told West to, you know, have double envelopes.

48:29She was the, is Aliens. He had a post office box, a fake corporation in DC called Chernobyl Associates. It was very, very complicated about how they, withheld this. West even wrote in a subsequent letter. He said, since much of my experiments are on people who are in our mental facilities, you know, psychiatric words, their strange behavior won't strike other doctors or observers as unusual, which gives me more freedom, because he'll just think it's a symptom of their mental illness, but this was the most important sentence. He goes, but you know, eventually we need to take these experiments and put them to practical use in the field, meaning a wave in the public.

49:13Wow. So that was when things shifted, and I've really started looking at what Vince had inadvertently kind of sent me on when he said, Well, we ever know how Manson, now it's not a spoiler for the book because if you read a review of it, I was never able to prove that Manson and West were in the same room. I know they were in the same building and every doctor who I interviewed there beginning with the main head of the Haydashbury Freed Medical Clinic, David Smith said, well, yeah, Charlie would have seen and we all knew Manson. He was a character here. Charlie had an associated Oklahoma and other psychiatrists who he brought with him to the hate for that.

49:52When you say they're in the same building, let's describe how big is this building. It's a classic Victorian townhouse house in the hate. It was like three stories and they had offices, you know, the waiting room would fill with hippies who were really, you know, most of them are having bad trips. But what David Smith didn't tell us, he created this in 67, anticipating what was about to happen in the summer of love that there would be this invasion of kids and they'd be using this new drug LSD and there'd be no medical facility. So he did it and again I'm very conflicted about what I believe David New or didn't know.

50:32He's still alive. He's in my book. I interviewed him quite a bit. He contradicted himself quite a bit. And when you say they were in the same building just to be clear, Jolly had an office in this building and Manson came there three times a for a long time, while the summer through the fall in a building the size of a house, just to be clear. We can say they were both in the same building one time and it's the Empire State Building. No, no, yeah, this is a house size building. Yeah, and they're there often at the same time. Yeah, okay. And James Allen who was a psychiatrist at Oklahoma who was brought with him told me, he said, of course, Jolly, we talked to him.

51:14Everyone was fascinated because Manson would walk down the hall and he began with two or three then it became six or seven women trailing him like slaves and he said there were a lot of characters in the hate. A lot of them didn't hate Ashbury Fried medical clinic but nothing like Charlie. So what else do we know about the clinic? It closed the month after my book came out it shut down it had been open since 1967 it closed in 2019. That's interesting. Yeah.

51:44Did the CIA join this existing thing? Or were they there for the beginning? Or did they start? I can't prove it. I believe they created it with David. I mean, David lied from the beginning. He said it was not gonna be a research facility. He said this is a treatment center. We're doing this to help kids. And he raised money, he got funding. What was his background? He was a psychiatric student who, for his thesis, I guess that was his master's thesis or his PhD. Wrote a study on the effects of LSD. And this is again where things get so confusing. In his paper, he wrote mice. He would give mice in communal settings LSD, starting in 65, and then crowd them and see how it affected their behavior.

52:35And what it did would have caused them not only to kill each other, but to rip each other to shreds. Wow. Wow, yeah, I interviewed his teacher's assistant, the pre -mat guy, named Charles Fisher, who wrote a paper with him, and he had to go like three times a day to observe the mice, and he said, I'd have to go there one in the morning, and I knew the Vietnam war was happening, and it was like looking at May -Lyer, something you go in there, and there'd be limbs. They'd be, we know why this is what he was choosing to research. He wrote a book called Love Needs Care in 1971 or 72 about the origins of the clinic, his research.

53:14He talks about this study. He said he just anticipated that drugs would overwhelm the hate a year before it happened and that kids would live communally. Now people were living communally in cities with mostly beets. That's a big joke. Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, it's incredible. And he talks about once they get crowded and clustered and they're taking drugs and eventually he says speed will enter the scene, they're going to kill each other. And he was in one of his papers he wrote, he said he wanted to learn how they could control that behavior. Once people are on, you know, theoretically it's a good thing, you know, make sure kids don't hurt each other when they're tripping and using speed.

54:01Also, and this is, I think, one of my most important findings. He published it, but nobody ever thought it was remarkable. He coined something called psychedelic syndrome, which he said, some people will have one LSD experience, and it will be profound, and then they'll go on to the next day and be just like they were before. Maybe they'll talk about it, maybe they'll try it again. Other people had life altering LSD trips. their first time where they had a massive personality change. He wanted to find out what were the precipitating factors in people who kids who took LSD, who had almost a psychotic break where they never thought the same way.

54:43And he wanted to be able to divide those people, which is exactly what Manson was doing. He was finding followers who, you know, he was giving the mass and not taking it. And then he was doing... Was that true? He was not taking it. He was just giving it to them. He might have took him in the beginning, but his commune family members, you know, in their testimony of the trials, the books they later wrote, they all said that they found out Charlie would pretend to take it and he would give it to us and he would keep them high for consecutive days. And then he put them in role -playing stuff. It began with, you know, the man had to make love to other men.

55:18Stuff that made them uncomfortable, then it became pretend you're killing someone, you know, all that kind of stuff while they were high. Because some people who he recruited would rebel against them. They're like, I'm not the man, especially men, but woman, I'm not going to let you tell me to have sex with someone I don't want to have sex with. I'm not going to wash your feet and cook for you. But others would immediately become subservient. So basically the objective of David's early research was to find out how to find the ones who would be the kind of people who would be man -sing girls. And when he opened the clinic in 67, there was a group called The Diggers, who were really the first hippies.

55:58And they became organized and they were giving out free food. And I saw that you've spoken about it before the death of the hippie funeral they had in 68 when it became like a commercial term and they buried it. Emma Grogan, the one who founded The Diggers, wrote a book before he died, like he died but I think he wrote it in the 70s, and he publicly said to reporters that he thought David Smith was like a gnar, like he was working for the government, and he accused David of using government funds to do research. David said, after the first year, yeah, he was doing papers. He published something called the psychedelic journal or something, and they were studying people, but he said it was all private funding, or it was volunteer work by other psychiatrists like Jolly.

56:44like, no, it's with funded by the State Department, the NIMH, the same people that were funding money to Jolly when he was doing MK Ultra stuff. So I think that David, I couldn't prove it, but I kind of say it in the book was complicit. I don't know if he looked the other way. So this is something I guess, I don't care about telling it now. I don't think I've ever told it. I found out this recently. Someone I know has been interviewing David it. And about a year and a half ago Roger Smith died. Roger Smith, no relation to David Smith, was Manson's parole officer, who's a big character in that first year as Manson's officer.

57:22He was almost enabling Manson to become this guru. And didn't he end up being his stepfather to Manson's father? Oh yeah, he had a foster father when the girls, Manson's first born child, Michael Valentine's Smith from the Highland novel, Stranger and a Stranger World. Manson named him after that. Then named the boy after that who we have with Mary Bruner and in 68 Mary and three other women got arrested in Mendocino. Roger Smith, who had stopped being Mendocino's parole officer right about then, went up to Mendocino with his wife and petitioned the court to be assigned as the foster parent to Michael.

58:01There are people who believe that Roger was the father of that baby and not Mendocino. Oh, that's interesting. I actually have never said that before, but whatever. I couldn't say I never heard that one before. I couldn't put it in my book because I couldn't corroborate it, but I actually... Why would anybody think that? Well, Roger had the women to his house with me. They were coming to his house, too. And his wife, I interviewed his wife. My arrangement with her was never to tell her new name. So I can talk about this as not in the book. She was one of my door knocks. You know, I knocked on the door in her house in this beautiful place in the Bay area.

58:37and she immediately shut it in my face and I said, Mrs. So -and -so, I have these parole investigation reports for some Manson girls in 68, where you and Roger both signed your name saying they should be released. Their harm was their good women. Your name's on that. I'm going to put that in my book, but if you work with me and talk to me, we can have an arrangement where I don't name you. So she let me in. And she was freaked out because she was terrified of Susan Atkins, the main woman. She wouldn't be in the house and they would come over and he said, Roger got too close to them. Roger was obsessed with Charlie.

59:14He was fascinated by Charlie and what was his background? Roger was from Iowa. He was a rock -rib Republican, as he said it. He went to Berkeley Criminology School, which doesn't exist anymore, to get his PhD in criminology in about 64. And for three years, he got a master's in a PhD. He studied his first area of focus was gangs and collective behavior with the youth in Oakland. So these kids right before the Panthers reform, these street kids were forming violent gangs. So he was infiltrating them with other grad students to interview them, study them, and try to figure out, again, and which kids became more criminal and which kids didn't what was the common factor in that he wrote a paper about it for his master.

1:00:07With that background makes sense to be a parole officer. Would most parole officers? The parole officer was part time. So he started being a parole officer undergrad at I think Madison at Wisconsin, he went to or University of Chicago. So he knew he wanted to get into criminology. So he got trained to be a parole officer or his last couple of years there. And it was like a part -time thing. Then when he went out to the hate and he was putting himself through school, he became a full -time parole officer. And again, who knows what to believe with these guys. He said he never intended on doing it once he got his degree.

1:00:43Then he wanted to be a criminologist. His last parole client was Charles Manson. And that ended in 68 and then he stopped. And then he got his degree and then he became an expert Well, actually, after the gang research he did, then he shifted over to speed. And he started something called the Amphetamine Project under the auspices of the Hade Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. So that was the fall of 67. He actually had an office open. At that point, they had an annex, another building around the corner where he opened something called the Amphetamine Project. And he would, Manson would go there for his parole hearings, and they were studying speed and how it influenced some people to be violent but not other people.

1:01:32And when you say they were studying it, would they give it to people to see how they react? Well that was it. I think I have a page in my book if not at some of my social media. He had a contract, so he would hire grad students. They would go out to speed labs or they would find speed addicts and they'd interview them. And the contract that they made with him is, you will be witnessing criminal activity. You could be considered an accessory, but every subject that we study has to remain anonymous, and you are not allowed to cooperate with the police. In any of this, you have to sign this contract saying you want so we can get these people that we're studying to trust us.

1:02:12That's kind of what he would do. He would gain access to them. At the same time, there was a clinician and worker named Ellen Rose, who kind of ran the head asperi free medical clinic under David. He was kind of his protege, and he became completely enthralled with Manson and the women in 67. When the three girls got arrested in 68 and Mendocino, he went out there with David Smith's money and got them bailed out and hired them. They get arrested for it? They went to Mendocino Manson's anthem there to recruit more people for the family. So they were in, I forget the name of the town in Mendocino, but they started having these LSD parties and they lowered these three or four, fourteen and fifteen -year -old boys there, had an orgy with them.

1:03:03One of the boys thought his arms had become rubber bands and he ran home to his parents and his parents, one of them was a deputy sheriff. So they raided the house. So it was for contributing to the dual -inquency of a minor, LSD had just become a felony. It wasn't in 66, but 66 was illegal. It was legal, yeah. I think it was between a felony in 66 or 67. So they were up in all these charges. So Alan Rose ended up, all three women were pled out. They pled to lesser charges. And then the probation officer who, you do a probation report where you interview the friends of each of the three who ended up pleading guilty and recommending to the judge either to send them to prison or to give them probation.

1:03:50He recommended for all three of them that they should go to jail, not prison, for like a year because they were very prone to repeating this. He also identified Charles Manson as being the person that they said him were his wives and he being their criminal ringleader even though he was down in LA, but they take all their orders from him. They said it to the probation investigator, David Mandel, who I was able to interview. He also interviewed Roger Smith and his wife. So Roger Smith and Mrs. Smith wrote in the reports for Susan Atkins and Mary Bruner, two women who were later convicted of murder, Susan of multiple murders, Mary Bruner of the murder of Gary Hinden in Topanga.

1:04:34A year before Roger and his wife wrote these reports saying these are good women, they're just hippies, they're peaceful, prison isn't going to help them, they need to be released. David Mandel still recommended to the judge that they not be released, but the judge was lenient and gave them probation. Roger never disclosed in the report, or to David Mandel, that he was actually Manson's parole officer for the year that he gathered these women and became, turned them into a criminal crime family. That's how I got in the door with Mrs. Smith. Mrs. Smith never told me that Roger was sleeping with the girls, but other people at the clinic believe that he might have been.

1:05:19Terry Melcher also is definitely sleeping with at least one of the girls who was under age, Ruth Amor House. And that's what Manson would do to get the man obligated to him was he would give them his youngest, prettiest girls. And then they had this, they became compromised and he would be able to do, he was a smart comment. Yeah, I was telling you that I recently learned that David Smith and an interview on audio tape with someone I know, I should preface it by saying when my book came out, I learned that David Smith and Roger Smith were considering filing a lawsuit against myself and the publisher.

1:05:57I knew they wouldn't because there's something called discovery and everything I have is backed up and vetted by the did an incredible fact check at Little Brown. So they decided not to do it. But David gave an interview after Roger died about a year and a half ago to someone. And he said he would now, Roger Gawon, say that he's now wondering whether Roger was involved in some type of governmental program to manipulate Manson. Because after reading my book and remembering what he had experienced himself, He was looking at it differently. Now is he saying that because he wants to throw any focus off of him?

1:06:36Or does he truly believe it? I'd love to talk to him one more time. Have you reached out? I haven't since the book came out but There's a few people I want to reach out to now, you know, you have to do it before they pass away And he's still in the hate He actually lost his position on the board of the clinic he founded before my book came out about five years before because he was and bezzling from it. And he never got criminally charged, but this bored Sudam and Court, they got some of the money back, and he was banned, he wasn't even allowed on the property. And that was his whole identity.

1:07:12So, you know, who knows? That's the hardest thing about a book like this. You meet people, and I spend a lot of time with them, probably three or four sit down interviews at his house and the clinic with them, and they're early 2000s, lots of phone calls. And you end up liking these people, when you're like, could they have been this full of malice? Could they have been that evil? And can they lie to me, you know? And then I would find out that they were lying to me.

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1:09:01Is it possible, though, if they were working for the government that they thought they were doing something good? Well, yeah, that's one of the biggest defenses of that was if you look at it in the context of the times, the Cold War, the Cuban Missile Crisis happened in 62, Americans really were living with a shadow of nuclear annihilation over their head and these agencies were trying to prevent that. But you know, jolly was was a medical doctor, he was a psychiatrist medical doctor and his hypocratic oath is to protect. And he was giving drugs to people and fucking with their minds and imagine doing that with someone who's already bipolar or schizophrenic.

1:09:45One of his colleagues who took over the chairman of psychiatry at Oklahoma when he left, this very esteemed professor said something to me, it's in the book, but shocked me, because we talked about, and I don't know if you want to get into it, the Jack Ruby thing. Yeah, tell me. Before I tell you about that, what he said to me, Gordon Decker was, I said, would West have asked by the government, would he scramble Jack Ruby's mind, which I'll tell you about in a second. If the government asked him to, and Decart said, if the government asked him to do it, and he thought he was doing it, for good reasons, he'd do anything they said to him.

1:10:23So, yeah, the Jack Ruby JFK assassination, who would want to get into that when you're just writing about reporting about Manson? And once I found out that, you know, Jolly West had this very circumstantially direct relationship with Manson, during the time period he became a guru and this leader with incredible magical powers. I looked at West history. He received kind of national fame right after the Korean War. So 52, 53, there were about 30 or 40 prisoners of war, airmen who were captured, fighting for our side in Korea, who were returned to us, but while they were in prison in Korea, they had made public statements that we were using German warfare over there, which was a Gensage Neva code, and that we were evil in an awful country.

1:11:19So when they were returned, West and for other psychiatrists were assigned to deprogram them. Do we know what they were saying was not true? No, no, no. And there's been incredible reporting in just the last five or 10 years that we were using Jeromorph Arrow there and they were telling the truth. They were probably coerced, you know, maybe tortured. They weren't sleeping and stuff like that but they ended up telling the truth. What they needed, the United States government, when they came back, they needed them to renounce that. So the psychiatrist who the team that was assigned to them was West, Margaret Singer, Robert Liff and Edgar Shine and one other guy, all of them, Robert Lifton's still alive.

1:12:00I believe work for the CIA, West is the only one I can prove right now. I try to get Lifton to admit it to me, but he threw me out of his house. What was he like? Lifton? He's considered the leading world's expert on brainwashing. He wrote one of the first books about it. Once we discovered that the Chinese and Russians were brainwashing their own citizens and using drugs and hypnotism and sensory deprivation, He was a professor at Harvard, and then he retired out in Cape Cod. I got him on the phone a few times, and I wanted him to look at these letters that I have between Gottlieb, the head of M .K.

1:12:38Altren, Jolly West, because I thought they were very close colleagues, not just during the Korean Pout episode, but they both testified at Patricia Hearst trial when she had been and the defense set a victim of brainwashing by the SLA. And I really battered my way into him agreeing to let me come to his house and talk to him. And beautiful house and Cape Cod, and I had my briefcase, I said, do you believe that Jolly was working for MKUltra during those years? Because I read all that garbage. He would never do that. I'd never do that. We were scientists. We would never take funding. We would never give drugs to people.

1:13:16I said, then you need to look at this. He goes, what is it? And I said, there are letters between Sydney Gottlieb and Dolly. In fact, John Marks, the one who wrote the search for the mentoring candidate, he hadn't done interviews for years until he agreed to meet with me. He told me, he said, this is going to happen to you at this time, it was a magazine article. If you publish this article and it's about MK Ultra, what happened to me is going to happen to you. You're going to have people camping outside your house saying that they're victims of MK you have to help him. He goes, I had to stop lecturing.

1:13:48I was going to do, I just walked away from the subject. Because first he said he wouldn't talk to me about it. He said, I haven't given an interview on the subject for 25 years. Everything I know is in the book. But when I told him I had unredacted letters, he said, I'll see you. And it was the night before Thanksgiving. I went to Georgetown, DC. He said, come at 11 o 'clock. I don't know why. 11 p .m. I go to the house and you know at that point he's in his late 60s and it was probably 2002 or 3. Let's me in the door. It doesn't even say hello. It goes, let me see what you have. I walk in his wife leaves the room.

1:14:22Are you looking at photocopies or originally? Photo copies, yeah. That I had made from the originals at UCLA. And he's like, if I had these documents, my book would have been entirely different. The investigations would have been different. and he goes, this is the only unredacted record of this program I've ever seen. He goes, this is amazing. I mean, I didn't need him to verify that it was west of that point. He goes, this is all what we knew he was doing, which he denied. And he goes, and you found it. He goes, good luck. And he goes, remember what I said is gonna happen to you. Nobody's camped out at my yard, yeah.

1:14:55But those are among the letters I get from people who want me to help them because they think they're, maybe some of them are, but most of them probably are. I was a lift and wouldn't look at the letters. And I said, you're a scientist and a historian. Your field is brainwashing. You're consistent. You wouldn't look at the letters. I go, you need, he didn't want to have to admit what he had been denying to me. Another colleague, Margaret Singer, taught at Berkeley for years and was one of the other five of science scientists. I interviewed her in Berkeley when I was going up to do the hate reporting.

1:15:30she met with me a few times very close to Jolly. She said, there's no way Jolly worked for the CIA. None of us was same thing left and said, she looked at the letters. She made me turn off my recorder. She said, if you publish this, you will destroy everything, lifting shine, west, and I did. Our entire careers will be thrown out if you publish these letters. I said the same thing to her. I said, you're a professor. History is part of what you teach. You want me? she goes, yes, it will just do too much damage. Unfortunately, she wasn't alive when my book came out. Lifting is still alive to this day.

1:16:05It's about 93. It's true, but it's inconvenient. And inconvenient truth. Yeah, yeah. So those guys went to Valley Forge. The powers were brought to Valley Forge Military Academy, where I grew up, like the next town over, and they were isolated there while lifting, shying, west, singer, and one more person, and deprogram them, and they all came out and publicly said they'd been brainwashed in Korea by their Chinese captors and forced to lie. They didn't remember being put all that kind of stuff. There was no germ warfare, and they were all pilots. That's how they were captured. You know, the planes were shot down.

1:16:43So that was Jolly's first kind of national fame when he was one of those elites. and then in all these stories, the people other than the programmers are ponds in the story. Yeah. What did they get for it? I mean money, they wanted to be on the cutting edge of science, or they were diabolical and wanted to do this for some kind of pleasure, or were they patriots? Yeah, find it hard to believe that they had bad intentions. I don't want to say that about the But I think Jolly was pretty evil. You think there's some stuff I know about him personally? I mean, you know, there's a lot of philanthropists.

1:17:27Everybody does it. But I heard stories about what he would do to colleagues' wives. You know, he was fucking everyone. And again, it's not wrong, but you don't do it to your best friend's wife. And this one guy who I won't say, whose wife became a very prominent cancer researcher herself, He said, if he saw Jolly, he would spit in his face, if not beat him up. And this is 30, 40 years later. And the son talks about it in the book a little bit about his father was unfaithful to his wife. But he was cruel from what I heard about what he did with students and women and stuff. And the stuff that I believe he did with patience is pretty diabolical.

1:18:09And it's in hindsight, but that meeting with him. Again, I would transcribe every interview I ever did. I never even transcribed that tape because I just thought not that he was evil, but just like this guy just as Putt and it was just Dispaint so much of himself. Yeah, his ego was very big So JFK Jack Ruby and again, you're not looking for this no and what is first started surfacing? I'm like, oh no, no, no, no, I don't want to go anywhere near the JFK assassination and You know when I moved to LA 97 two years before I got this assignment I had friends who had already lived here. And some of them is a stereotype, but they'd come out to LA and they became such kind of conspiracy -minded where they hadn't been that way on the East Coast.

1:18:57And it was likely they were much more open to like people living under the center of the earth and reptiles and shit and scared me. And they also would talk about JFK. And I dismissed all that. And then literally I'm studying Jolly and I'm like, Well, wait, he was assigned to Jack Ruby. And Ruby's claim after shooting Oswald. So Oswald is arrested for shooting Kennedy at Deally Plaza, which I went to for the first time ever last week. I was in Texas for something. How was it? It was incredible. I mean, I walked around this place that I had visualized and seen films out of the suburb of film. And it feels like nothing has changed in the plaza that I went in their museum, the Sixth floor museum.

1:19:39And I was really pleased to see it. I heard this was all like the last five or six years. A lot of stuff about the possibility that Oswald didn't act alone, that there was a conspiracy. I mean, in the displays and things. I think there's a book that really lays out, has evidence in the title. Oh, best evidence is David Lichten, I think. I think maybe it's that one, no? It's a good one, but this guy Jim Douglas says, he's the one that the most serious people I know. And he's doing a follow up and he wanted me to share a lot of my Jack Ruby, Jolly West stuff, which I was glad to do. I said, number one, you're a hero of mine.

1:20:15And number two, I want you to be able to, I mean, you might find stuff in these documents that went right over my head because you're an expert. So I shared everything with him and I think he said the book is coming, he's on deadlines, late like I've always been, I think it's coming out in the fall. And the subject of his book. It's the new findings that he's had since his book was published in the 90s about this assassination I think it's kind of like his swan song before he goes over the rainbow bridge. A sweet guy lives in Alabama so he and I have been communicating sharing information. I think it really changed after Oliver Stone's movie JFK.

1:20:55They set up something called the assassination records review board which forced the CIA to at least begin the release process of all its files on Oswald, which finally were supposed to become available during the Trump administration and twice Trump turned it down and extended the deadline. And now Biden has done it once, and there's another deadline. So there's still... What they put out was all redacted, I remember. What they put out was redacted, and they're admitting they still have hundreds and hundreds of pages. Yeah. And how many years ago was this? 63. So 63 years ago and they're still redacting the information from the Why why why what's yeah, yeah, yeah, the protect sources and most of the so all the sources have to be dead Jack will be shot as well Three days after the assassination when as well was being let out Of the police station to be transferred to the jail in the basement on live TV in front of cameras 100 witnesses.

1:21:56Just so happened. And what he said after they tackled him, he said, I'm Jack Ruby, why are you doing this to me? Why am I here? And then the first day or two of his custody, he said he had no memory of the shooting. He said he didn't know why he was there, how he got there. So he never testified at his murder trial of Oswald. He was convicted a year later, like 64. And then he fired his lawyer, Melvin Belli, got a new lawyer, Ubert Wiston Smith, who was a lawyer and a psychiatrist who was a colleague of West and an old friend of West. Smith brought Weston to examine Ruby for an insanity plea. Now they had already tried the insanity plea in the first trial.

1:22:44He was examined by six psychiatrists all them thought he was sane. As I said, he's prone to excitability, he's manic, but there's no sense that he doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, nothing wrong, this or that. West goes to see him, and I think it was April of 64, 65. He's alone with him in his cell. For about an hour and a half comes out, gives a press conference, announces that in the which he will likely never recover. He has auditory hallucinations, he sees people in the room or aren't there, he hides under the table because he thinks someone is in the room with us. He hears noises outside, he told me, he was Jewish and he thought it was a Jewish pogrom that was framing him for this.

1:23:37He hears Jewish children being boiled alive outside his jail cell at night. So Wes continued to treat him for about a year, he would see him once every other month. And from that point forward, Ruby could never have a coherent conversation. He testified. His personality changed after a year in prison, after one meeting. With Jolly West. And Jolly was very first letter to Gottlieb. He said he wants to learn how to induce insanity in a subject without their knowledge. Now Ruby finally testified to the Warren Commission. So the Warren Commission sent, Earl Warren, who was the head of the Commission that Supreme Court justice, Gerald Ford and Arlen Spectre.

1:24:21Gerald Ford was on the Commission, Arlen Spectre was an attorney investigator for the Commission to interview Ruby in Texas. And they had to stop the interview because he was rambling, he was incoherent. He took Arlen Spectre aside who was Jewish and said, don't you know they're killing Jews, they're going by the untrames to camps. So I'd never used anything and then he died a year later of a sudden onset of cancer. Didn't he say he thought that they poisoned? Poison. Yeah. He thought they poisoned him. There's a whole world of people out there that they think that Jolly injected him with something to kill him or give him cancer.

1:24:56I can't go that far, but at the very, very least, West was compromised. He couldn't have been... Jack Ruey was called the most important witness in the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Oswald would have been, but he's dead, so the person who killed Oswald is the most important. Well, that person was being treated by someone who was contracted by the CIA to remove true memories of personal with false. In 1955, he reported he had been successful with that, and also to induce insanity in people. Alan Dulles, who was on the commission, he'd been fired by Kennedy, and Kennedy after the Phil Bay of Pigs invasion.

1:25:40He fired Dallas and Kennedy famously said I'm going to splinter the CIA to a million pieces. Dallas was on the commission. Dallas knew who Jolly West was. Richard Helms, who was the direct supervisor of Gottlieb and then Gottlieb over West, was the liaison between the commission and the CIA because Helms was still at the CIA. They knew who the minute Ruby became mentally unhinged during the day that West first met him They had to know did they disclose that to the rest of the commission? I doubt it. I couldn't interview any of them. Gerald Ford wouldn't talk to me. He was so alive. I think he was the only one on it.

1:26:18So I believe the whole Warren Commission was compromised. I don't know anything about second and third shooters. Any of the other stuff. I just kept my narrow focus on the relationship between West and Ruby.

1:26:40I mean, he would then, you know, also who was the clariner in LA? That was another... Oh, Thomas Nguci. Yeah. Thomas Nguci, yeah. I got to interview him. Tell me about him. Well, you know, I was reporting on Robert Kennedy's assassination, and I really... That happened a year before the take -lobby Archimanders. Same cops and murderers. the LAPD where the cops on the scene at, you know, the ambassador hotel where Kennedy was shot in the pantry by a lone assassin, Sir Han, who also claimed he had no memory of the shooting, no memory of the proceeding 24 hours to this day, he's alive. And who's writing, like we just write the same thing?

1:27:19Yeah, automatic writing. Our famous tie -out over 100's and 100's of times. He's still alive. He's still alive. The parole board approved his release. For the first time in 50 -something, 60 years, I think it was a year and a half ago, but the governor has the authority in California, not all states, I think like two thirds of the states, to overturn a parole board's ruling. So Gavin Newsom wouldn't allow him to be released, which is what he's done in the Madison family members who have been approved. Leslie Van Houten, one of the women, and did get released last year, Newsom overrode the parole board decision, but Leslie's attorney took Newsom in the state to court and the appeals court ruled that Newsom was in favor and they released her about a year ago.

1:28:09But the sir hand thing, I couldn't find any evidence that West said anything to do with that. I do believe I can't prove, and I'm hardly the first person to say it. Sir Han was hypnotized, that he fired at Kennedy, at least one of his bullets killed Kennedy, but there were other bullets. Ngu Chi famously did the autopsy, said that Sir Han couldn't have shot Kennedy, because Sir Han was in front of Kennedy, and the bullet that they said was a killer bullet came from behind his ear. So Ngu Chi actually lost his job because of that, because he wouldn't stand down. He wouldn't say, and he was able to sue back and get back into the job.

1:28:55And he finished and retired. I think five or ten years before I started the book. And now he's alive still. I've been talk to him in ten years, but I got him on the phone a couple times. But yeah, Naguchi is a character. He was, you know, corner of Los Angeles. You, all kinds of things, you know, a Selminio. Yeah. who was in the couple of James Dean's movies was killed in West Hollywood. But yeah, so West, Patty Herz gets kidnapped. And then, months after she's a kidnapped abduc -de -she's in a holding up a bank in hibernia, I think, with the SLA, machine and automatic weapon in her beret, Agna.

1:29:38So West was the first doctor to see her, to deprogram her and basically build a defense that she was brainwashed by being isolated in the closet being raped, which probably was all true. But... Do we think the SLA might have been... Oh yeah, yeah, and again, I spent a lot of time, I mean, the parallels between Donald DeFries who founded the SLA and was killed in the fire. There was a big shootout and South Central, I think it was, when they thought they had the entire SLA and Patty Hurts surrounded and the SLA started shooting back and they ended up bombing the house and five or six SLA members are killed including DeFries who was a commander.

1:30:22Patty Hurts wasn't there so she ended up escaping that but he had a history so similar to Mansons. He was getting released when he shouldn't have been released. He had this guy named in Colston Westbrook, who was ex -CIA, who was his mentor in prison when he was at Bacaville. He was going in and teaching him and had this contact with him. Again, I'm not, this is my reporting. I don't think I even mentioned it in my book, because I couldn't find out anything new about it, and I couldn't connect it to West. But, you know, in Jonestown, that there was some involvement. And I always say, I don't know that they wanted to create the monsters or the monsters acts those people did, but I think those people were being manipulated as part of experiments and...

1:31:10But then after all these people are vilified as bad guys so it's like don't do these things. Yeah. You know it's got a chilling effect. Oh yeah yeah well that's what I call climate attention or whatever which is we know at first began with a Gulf of Tonkin when and we're trying to declare war against, to join the South Vietnamese and the war against, North Vietnamese, and we had to have grounds to do it, just like Saddam's chemical weapons, which were in true. So up two of our ships got bombed in the Gulf of Tonkin. And I pretty sure the United States government has admitted that they weren't bombed by the North Vietnamese, but that gave us a reason to actually get into the war officially and begin that horrible war.

1:31:53strategy of tension, it's called, to make people terrified so that the government can. Now, you know, every time there's a school shooting or a mass shooting, I get tons of emails from people who are convinced that that shooter from some information that they've read about, even in the early coverage within days, with somehow brainwashed to do that. And I always say the same thing. My reporting stopped at 74 or 75. You know, I can't go there without losing my mind more. What was reclaiming history? Re -claiming history. So Vince Buleo's thesis was he was going to prove once and for all that Oswald acted alone in the assassination of John F.

1:32:38Kennedy. So he spent as long as I did 20 years writing what became this like 1200 page door a more stop of a book called Re -Claiming History, where he attacks chapter by chapter every critic of the Warren Commission finding, every author, every public figure, and in his saying takes apart and dissembles all of their arguments for there being a second shooter, all that kind of stuff. Again, I'm not an expert on the Kennedy assassination, but I have the book, I couldn't get through it, but I would go through certain parts of it, and I've seen the critiques of it by the people who attacked him and they demolished his critiques.

1:33:23And you know, he did what he did with the menacing case. He wrote it as a prosecutor, so he omitted information that wasn't favorable to his thesis. And the stuff that, and I did look at, I can't remember which specific chapters where he attacked books that I've really respected. And I'm like, wait, you're not reporting that they found This document, that evidence, he did this and I think he really thought it was going to be the last book he did before he died and he actually lived longer, he's dead now but he wrote a couple more smaller books. What were the later books about? The later book was a book about his atheism and about how he had become an atheist after being raised a Catholic, very controversial.

1:34:06So I mean, Bully O .C. should never have had been assigned the Manson case. And I know that, and I have it in the book, because he had a criminal record of his own prior to getting this assignment. This is a plum assignment, right? It's the highest profile murder case in Los Angeles history until O .J. 1969. He was a really smart, really charismatic deputy DA. I think he was the same age as man. Someone he got assigned, they were both 32. So he'd been in the DA's office about three or four years. He had a couple high profile murder cases, but nothing that made him a household name. This did. But what wasn't reported until about five years after the case, and I wasn't the first one to report it.

1:34:56People forgot it. It was reported. He ran for Attorney General of California. And when he ran for that, there was a man named Herb Wiesel and his wife Rose, who came out and had a press conference to announce that starting in 1966, he'd been stalking them. For more than a year, Herb Wiesel was his milkman. Vince believed that Herb Wiesel was a father of his firstborn child, Vince Bully O .C. junior was born in 1966. So that lost him the election. It was reported in all the papers. He denied it. He lied. What he said was, here's the truth. Herbazel was my milkman. We believe my wife and I that he stole $200 from our kitchen because we would let him have access to put the milk in the fridge.

1:35:49So I was investigating him about that. What his opponents pointed out was even if that were true, when he was investigating him starting 67, 68, the statute of limitations was over. He couldn't have done anything if he found it out. He never reported it to the police. He was using DA's investigators, saying the milkman was a witness to a murder case who didn't want to testify and he needed him followed. He went to the house and was parking in front of the milkman's house. He went to the door, begged the wife to get her husband saying, we're both due to get him to do a blood test. She said, you're crazy, get off the property.

1:36:32He sent his wife to the wife's house to do the same thing. The wife said, please just have your husband do this. My husband's insane. And she goes, just stay away from us. We're terrified of you. At that point, they didn't know he was a deputy of the DA. They knew he had some official capacity downtown. Then they had someone follow him after he had followed them. him, traced his license plate, reported him to the DA's office, they had a meeting, then promised not to bother this couple anymore to walk away from it. He offered to pay them like $600 in damages. They said, we don't want to die and just stay away from us.

1:37:10So when he's running for attorney general, they thought the world needs to know how crazy he is. So he lied to the press. They ended up suing him then for libel for making up this story. He settled with them gave them money. Then you ran for District Attorney of Los Angeles two years later. Same thing happened. A woman comes out, has a press conference Virginia Carvoss that I was Vince's mistress 73 and 74. I got pregnant on Catholic. He wanted me to have an abortion. I wouldn't do it. He said I had to. He set it up He called the doctor and the doctor violated his hypocradic oath and said she never came in for the abortion.

1:37:54He went to her apartment in Santa Monica, beat the hell out of her. She miscarried. She went to the Santa Monica Police Department. I have the photographs of her bruised face, bruised arms. File to report the next morning or that night, the beat reporters, they get a teletype from the court houses. saw that the charges have been filed. It was all over the papers that Vince had beaten up as mistress. And he goes back to her apartment with his secretary. She has a son who's four, I think. Secretary goes in the bedroom to occupy the son. Vince spends three or four hours begging her, threatening her, to go to the police and say she filed a false report.

1:38:40He said, they will arrest you. But here's a story we're going to tell them. She had originally contacted him about getting support payments from her ex -husband. He wasn't paying child support and that's when their affair began. He said, you're going to say, we never met face to face. I consulted with you once on the phone and I've never been in this apartment. She got so beaten down that she called up the police department and she said, I want to come in and withdraw my report. I filed a false report. they sense that something was wrong. This was my report. This was reported, but not this part.

1:39:16I found this out because I found the cop who went. The cops, they said, we'll come pick you up and you go, and Vince is like, no, no, you go, when? So she said, no, no, I'm coming in. Well, they knew to send a patrol to cops there. They got to the apartment, and this is how powerful Vince was. None of this part was reported. Wow. He wouldn't let them in the house. Wow. He was in private practice, and he got his partner, Robert Steinberg. The two of them, like, wouldn't let them in the house to get her. They'd call the DA Santa Monica had his own DA, then I tried to interview him in Malibu. He wouldn't talk to me.

1:39:49They took her. She filed, said it was a false report. She was arrested. Vince said, I'll take care of it. The DA dropped the charges quietly two or three weeks later. The papers reported that she had withdrawn it, that she was angry. The story was that he wouldn't give her back or $200, something ridiculous. So he lied about that to police. The police interviewed him. When he ran for office the second time, she came out and he lost again. So this was a pattern of conduct. When I confronted him, not the first year, but six years later, I said, Vince, I need to bring everything and show you what I'm going to report at that point in some book.

1:40:27First he pretended not to know where I was. After I'd knowing he's tracking me, he's calling people before and after I interviewed him. Finally, I agreed that, because I knew that he had to keep control, to talk to me at his house, I went to his house. And just like I had in 99, we spent about four or five hours at his kitchen table. We didn't leave the house that day. Screaming, him screaming, and shouting, and threatening me. He said, I will hurt you like you've never been hurt before. You have any idea what I can do to you? I will own Penguin Press, which I think was your publisher. Yeah. He started writing them letters.

1:41:02They got their first letter. I don't know if it was Scott Moyers, your editor there. Yeah, Scott was my editor for five or six years. Yeah. He got that letter and he called me up and he said, you know, I know from all you've told me how crazy he is, but this letter is insane. It was, I think, 18 pages, single space with 20 pages of exhibits and footnotes. So he said we have to show it to our in -house attorney. That attorney looked at it. He called me and he said, Tom, you have to tell me. He says, he's senile or is he mentally ill? He goes, I was in law school when the tape lab in Anglicotra, he said he was a hero to us law students.

1:41:43This letter was not written by that person. I said, he's not senile. He hadn't even finished his Kennedy book yet. He's lecturing. He's got this Kennedy book coming out. He's insane. Wow. So reclaiming history is how we got to that. I believe can't prove but that Vince was in the pocket of the agency. And I think that he got this assignment to take La Bianca because he was compromised. And when younger who was an XFBI man, the head DA, who had covered up the Kennedy assassination a year earlier, he's the one who picked Vince to do this. He needed someone who had to do what they told him to do and they should have fired him in 68 when they found out what he had done to the milkman.

1:42:28Do we think that's a pattern that they have compromised people? Yeah. Who'll do what they say because they don't want to be outed for whatever it is? Yeah, yeah, that's how they work, I believe. Wow. And again, I'm not the first one and other people have much better evidence of it than I do. What do you think it is about that window of time, 68, 69, that continues to fascinate us so much? Probably because of the, like, even the Joan Diddy and thing. all of a sudden it seemed like overnight the image of the hippie and I was 10 years old when these murders happened. I don't remember at all anything about Charles Manson.

1:43:07My brother who's 8 years older than me swears that I was obsessed with and reading about it. I remember wanting to be a hippie, romanticizing what I was reading. I just, you know, you would listen to the mamas and the I thought it was so beautiful and cool. Then when the tape murders happen, well, I wasn't a part of the community, but the people here then realized, and again, if you believe one of the thesis of my book that this was an operation to neutralize the left wing movement, to make hippies, all of a sudden seem like the big bad boogie man. So I talk about, not just MK Alzer, but the CIA had a program called Chaos.

1:43:55behind something called Coentel Pro. Both of those operations were begun in San Francisco in 1967. Coentel Pro and chaos specifically to figure out a way to stop what was becoming this mighty black power movement by the Black Panthers and also the anti -war movement. So that was begun under the auspices of Ronald Reagan who was governor Richard Helms, then was the director of the CIA. And in Los Angeles, Sam Yordy was the mayor. They all were, you know, approved that it knew it was happening. And the goal of those agencies was to use undercover guys, maybe some women to infiltrate the Panthers, the anti -war demonstrators, and then set them up for crimes, in the case of the Panthers, which they could be killed for, by cops who, you know, get them to have a meeting with guns or something, and then have the cops storm the meeting and have a shootout, or get a rival grang to believe that the panthers were about to attack them, or in this case, the U .S.

1:45:00slaves who were their rival in Los Angeles thought they were because they were being fed information from the FBI. That happened at UCLA. Two people were killed at a meeting at UCLA. I think it was January of 69, eight months before the tape murders because slaves had believed I can't remember which was which was about to attack, so they both went to do it before and they killed two people. All this came out in the 70s when a bunch of investigators rated a warehouse in Pennsylvania and stole the FBI files that they knew were there, which exposed a whole Co -Intel Pro program. Later, the FBI admitted to being responsible for actual killings.

1:45:46Had those files not been found, we would never know about it? Yeah, there's a great documentary that came out a few years ago. And I think it was the night of the Frazier Ali fight or some big sporting event where they knew the security guard would be glued to his TV that they were able to sneak into the window and get all these files out. Again, when you get the paperwork and the original documents, there's no refuting it unless you can say they're forgeries. But Geronimo Pratt, the famous panther, who spent something like 30 years in prison for killing two people playing tennis in Santa Monica, was framed to that murder.

1:46:23The FBI was surveilling him. They knew he was in San Francisco when that couple was killed, but they needed him behind bars. So they had that murder done and then had him. And they admitted it when he was released, I think late 90s or early 2000s. He was finally exonerated and released. and the FBI admitted that they knew he couldn't have done it because he was in San Francisco. Wow. So that kind of stuff was going on all the time. And in my book, I have a document about Hoover wrote to the field agent in LA, the head of the FBI field office. I think it was the winter of 68 to 69. It definitely before the tape murders.

1:47:03They were worried about the white Panther Party. The white Panthers were basically celebrities who supported and had fundraisers for the Black Panthers, famously Warren Beatty, Jane Fond, Donald Sutherland and his wife, and Hoover wrote a memo saying, we need to make these whites believe that when the revolution finally happens, they're gonna be lined up against the wall and executed with everyone else. So it was a propaganda campaign. And when Manson was on the front pages of all the papers December 1st after he was charged and they announced that they had this group of hippies and custody who lived on a commune previously at Spon Ranch here in Chatsworth in the mountain Dothale.

1:47:50You know, the girls were giving interviews, the ones who were arrested with babies nursing, long hair, beads, barefoot, but they looked terrifying and then Manson's photographs and mug shots. All of a sudden the hippies, that's the other thing, how it changed Hollywood, how it changed the nation, people wouldn't pick up if he's hitchhiking anymore. They were terrified of them. They could kill you. LSD could turn your kids into killers. The lack of structure, family, the free love, everything was the most dangerous thing. Johnson said when he was president in Hoover and now, as they all said, the greatest threat to national security is this revolution that's coming.

1:48:32This youth movement from the Panthers to the anti -war demonstrators. They're a bigger threat than Chinese communists to Russia, to our national security. It has to be stopped. Did you see once upon a time in Hollywood? Yeah. How did you react? So I, a dummy about Tarantino. I like his movies, but I hadn't seen a lot of them. I knew that he had a twist ending. Yeah. And he was very good at keeping it a secret. I had a friend who had a kid who was like 15 and about a month or two before the movie was released. My book came out the same month. Is that true? The publisher changed the release date to coincide with Quentin's movie.

1:49:10Because they knew that it would get a lot of attention. That's a good idea. It's a good idea, you know, business -wise, but to me it felt exploitative, but I didn't argue. No, it doesn't change the book at all. It doesn't. No, it doesn't. It just promotion. I'm sure it helped. Yeah. But my friend's kid said to me, I bet he does what he did in glorious bastards. I'd never seen it. I go, his name is Bo, I go, Bo, what are you doing in glorious bastards? He goes, oh, all the bad guys get killed. They kill Hitler. I go, who? He goes to the Americans. They storm this theater and kill all the Nazis.

1:49:44So that's interesting. I guess I should see it. But you know, Bo, if he did that in one movie, he's not going to, it's a trick. He can't do it twice. So I waited the day it opened. I wanted to see it before I learned anything. I didn't read anything more. I had no idea what was going to happen. Yeah. So when they get to the night of the killings and they don't go to a house occupied by the victims, but the Nate, I'm like, what? Oh, he's completely fictionalizing it. So I watched that scene where Brad Pitt kills everybody. And I was bothered by it because it was so brutal. And I kept thinking, all right, it was a revenge fantasy.

1:50:23The bad guys get killed, but it seems to me demeaning to the people who really died that night. Because it just didn't feel right. And people were cheering and laughing the more brutal it got. And I almost walked out, I didn't. And then I kept watching. And then if you remember how it ends, the caprio gets invited onto the property and J. Seaping invites him and Sharon and voice checking it. And then you have the little tinkling music. And then the title, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, and I'm like, oh, it's a fairy tale. What if? And I almost cried. Yeah. And I thought, it's so moving. It's genius.

1:51:04I thought it was really brilliant. And then Quentin, he got in touch with me. So I have a friend who has been his first AD forever, a friend of a friend, and another woman who was one of his last girlfriends before he got married. They both got him copies of my book before it came out. He never read it. He was finishing his movie publicizing it, but about six months after his movie came out, my friend Billy, who was his first AD, sends me an email, I was like, Quentin is writing a novelization of his movie, because originally he wanted to write a book and not a movie. He goes, he'd love to talk to you, would you mind getting on the phone with him?

1:51:40I'm like, yeah, of course. So Quentin starts calling me from Israel. I think his wife is Israeli, they went over there, and then they got stuck there because of COVID. So he called me two or three nights and you know, I don't know if you know him. Rapid fire, questions and I try to answer and then he started. But he was really sweet because his book came out. He sent me, I don't know how he got my prize from Billy. Got my address sent me in his scribe copy. Beautiful. And then when he went out to promote the book, he went on Mark Marin first, talked about how important my book was to his. Great.

1:52:19And then he goes on Rogan and the two guys, Tham, brought out about the, and I already knew Rogan likes my book, but the two of them talking about it like, and Tentino says this to Rogan, he goes, you know, Tom took my call, he agreed to talk to him, I'm like, I've been living alone with nobody listening to me for 20 years. I would take your call, whether I did have a book or not, of course I'm gonna take your call. So it felt good, and yeah, the two of them of really help a book and it's such a good book. Oh thanks thanks. It's so good and it really is thought provoking and mind -opening. Yeah I mean a couple people this guy Jim Douglas who wrote the Kennedy book he said to me and you know he you didn't need to say this he's very old and he's written the definitively he said you know your book has changed that whole world, the fact that you were able to get that stuff published by a mainstream publisher, that's opening the door for the rest of us.

1:53:20He goes, you have no idea how important it is, and I've heard that from other researchers. I'm like, I was just trying to finish a fucking magazine story and not look like the fool who wasted his life. Do you think there was an occult side to the murders? We know, again, I try to look at it in the context of the times, Cher and Tate interviews before she was killed, said that she was studying witchcraft. She was also doing her last movie, 13 chairs, which was about the occult. It was what she left Italy to come back to the house for in July, and then she was killed in August. She didn't clarify if she was reading and studying that for the role.

1:54:02Roman is so fucking complicated when you try to look at Rosemary's baby and wonder, did this somehow become chronically a consequence of him making that movie where this baby is taken from the mother's womb and by a satanist, and you know, there was a rumor that to this day a lot of people believe, they believe the chair and the baby was cut out of her by the Manson family. Susan Ackin said that they wanted to, but they didn't. They did stab her in the abdomen, but they didn't cut the baby out. Then of course the Manson family, people believe that they were somehow being manipulated or influenced by the process church, which was a satanic church that kind of blossomed in the hate in 67.

1:54:55What do I know about them? I don't know anything about them. Oh gosh, well they began in England in like 64, 65. and it was about 20 or 30, Satanists who, you know, were a patriarch of the men where the boss is the women who were slaves, who was communal free sacks. Were they hippies? No, they were like intellectuals. I spent a lot of time looking into the possibility that they saw something hell influenced men's, and they could never find anything solid. So I kind of walked away from it, and I'm not fresh with the information, but what's interesting is, the first book about the case was called His Book, The Family.

1:55:37He was reporting on it for the LA Free Pass, kind of the underground paper. It came out about a year and a half before Helter Skelter. Sanders had a whole chapter basically saying the process, Manson learned a lot of his mind control and powers from the process, church, and Scientology. So the process sued him successfully in England and Sanders had to go over there and testify and they ended up taking out the chapter from the subsequent copies of, it was ordered, removed. And you can get, well actually the publisher thought since they were successful in England, they're going to do it, they threatened to do it in the States, which is harder to do it.

1:56:20I know that because the only compromise I made with the reporting of my book, nothing, little brown didn't ask me to take anything out. But my British publishers said we have to remove about four or five anecdotes about Roman being physically abusive to Sharon. So I interviewed Sharon's closest friends and they told me some horrific stories that are in the American edition. And one of them is about Roman smashing Sharon's face into a mirror. I think that was on the honeymoon. Another about him torturing her by throwing a brick into the pool. So her dog was trying to get the brick and was drowning.

1:57:01And she had to jump and get it another time. She was wearing the same dress at a second party they'd been to, and he told her to go home and change it. And she wouldn't. And he pushed her in the pool in front of a whole party. So it's much easier to sue for defamation in the UK than it is here. I fought a little bit against it and then I thought, I don't care, you know, it's not important. I've got the verbal stuff he did to her, not the physical stuff in there and it pains a pretty accurate picture. So I think that Sanders published her here said, we can't take the risk once they started doing the second and third editions it was gone.

1:57:36So I could, they did visit Manson in prison before the trial. He did publish a letter to their followers in their magazine. But I don't think anybody's ever been able to prove to my satisfaction that they had any significant relationship. What's interesting though is they disbanded in, I think, the 80s. And they still exist, but they're a very well -known animal rights group with a farm in upstate New York, and it's the original founders. They're all now, if they're alive in their 80s, running the sanctuary for dogs and cats and animals. What was atua? Oh, that was Manson's, air trees, water, animals.

1:58:20Not until he was convicted, did he announce that he wanted to become an ecological, you know, kind of guru. So from prison, he was making pronouncements about, you know, actually he was ahead of his time about climate change. I think it was also a ruse for him to get money in prison. So he would get funds and his followers who still exist to this day, you know, I mean original, there's Sandra Good, Squeaky from Nancy Pittman, there's at least four or five women who still support him and they don't do hardly anything publicly anymore. But usually if they do, they do it under the banner of advancing Op -Wah.

1:59:08Was it ever genuine? I don't know. Did you hear the disgraced land podcast episode about Manson? I don't know who that is. It's a cool podcast and there's a story about what was happening at the tape house that's much different than the story that we know. evolved kind of ritual crazy stuff. What's interesting is if they're saying that happened when Roman was leasing it, he and Sharon moved in the very last day of February, our first week of March. And then by the fourth week of March, he went off to London to begin working on an adaptation of Day of the Dolphin that he wanted to direct. And she went to Italy, the same day, not the same day, but on different planes.

1:59:53She went to make 13 chairs. So from March until July, it was Abigail and Boychak there. And then they were the ones who really brought in the underbelly. And I do write about, I wonder how long ago was the podcast like in the last couple years? Best couple years. Really interesting, you'll like it. Oh, no, I'm going to find it. Yeah. I mean, I've read a little bit about it. You know, the original suspects. Mama Cass is in that as well. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, so the guys who originally suspected were named Charles Taco, Billy Doyle, Tom Harrigan, and Pick Dawson. Pick Dawson was a Washington DC rich preppy kid whose father was in a diplomat and he had you know everything at his fingertips.

2:00:38He started dating Cass in like 66, 67. And is he a drug dealer maybe? He was a drug dealer. an international drug dealer and her friends despised him. She finally broke up with him and then just moved over to Billy Doyle, his best friend. And those guys were selling drugs to the people of the Tade House and spending a lot of time there. And they probably talk about the rape of Billy Doyle when he supposedly Billy was annually penetrated by JC, was given drugs and then raped by JC Bringham Boychec. I was able to confirm this story because, that's a true story. Well, Billy Doyle denied it. I talked to he's still alive, he's in Canada.

2:01:24I talked to him on the phone and, it's like talking to Mass and he speaks in riddles, he denies whatever, but he definitely was Cass's lover at the time of this. Charles Taco, who was a drug dealer and ex -Marine military intelligence guy, by he and Billy Doyle were partners. Taco's daughter married Steve Winwood. Taco was part of the music scene. He told me on tape, because I interviewed him at his nursing home. I took him out to Coco's some restaurant. And he said to me that he got a call, and this is part of the official story, that Billy was unconscious at the house, that he'd been drugged and raped.

2:02:05So he said, he tells me this on tape. Actually, on my Instagram and Facebook page, Very early, everything's chronological. So you'd have to go back to 2019. I posted the audio tape with documents where he tells a story of driving up to Cello Drive, finding Billy passed out and he said his pants were sheared and belt were sheared from behind. He'd been raped. To him in his car brought him to Cass's house, had chains in his car for another operation he was on. He said, but thank God I had them because I chained Billy to Cass's tree. Because I knew when Billy woke up, he'd try to go back and kill everyone.

2:02:47This was July, about six weeks before the murders. So this was a well -known story in Hollywood that Billy had been raped and brought. Kenneth Bergen was the first one to tell the police. And he was chained to the tree for I think 24 hours. And Taco tells me in the interview the cast thought it was hysterical and went out and took polaroid pictures of him. And Charles said I got Billy's father on the phone in Canada who was also military intelligence. And he said Billy you can't go and kill those people. Charles is going to take you to Mexico or Jamaica. Get you away because if anything happens to them.

2:03:27I mean I'd love to hear that podcast and see what they report. But it's in the police records Vince doesn't. He only mentions that he tells a story about Roman having a housewarming party a week after they moved there and Doyle, Harrogon, Dawson and Tackle crashing it and Doyle stepped on Bill Tennant who was Roman's manager, a big agent at that time or manager, stepped on his foot and Doyle and Tennant got in the fight and Roman had them thrown out. And the depth of pigs that was in blood on the front door when the police started hearing stories about pick Dawson and these other three guys having a beef, they thought it was death to pick.

2:04:09I'm still not convinced that those guys weren't involved. I mean, there was another actress named Corrin Calve, who was Charles Tackle's girlfriend. She told me on the record that Tackle brought man's into her house and he peed in her pool and she threw him out of the house. So that's why the book so hard to write because there's all these conflicting stories and you don't know which one to believe. No. I know a lot of people were on drugs and hallucinating. Yeah. It's a weird time. I went to see, do you know Dave Mason? Yeah. I mean, I don't know him, but I know. So Taco and Billy Doyle were his drug suppliers and he let me talk to him after he did a show.

2:04:47This was the early 2000s. He thought we were talking about Cass. I kind of misled him. And when I brought up their names, he basically said, I, they're still alive. He goes, they are the most dangerous people that you'll ever encounter. I can't talk to you anymore. And he had me, I had to leave the stressing room at the troubadour somewhere. How do you think the story would have been different if Charlie would have gotten a record contract and made music? So I don't believe he really wanted that. I think that that was part of the myth. You know, he told Melcher, he didn't believe in contracts.

2:05:23He didn't believe in studios. He didn't believe in representation. when he was released in 67 from prison, his only contacts outside of jail were in Los Angeles. I don't know if you know who Phil Kaufman is. He wrote a book called Roadmangler Deluxe. He was the road manager for the Rolling Stones a little bit. Ultimately, for the last 10 or 15 years, he's been Emmy Luharis' road manager. So he's a dinosaur. He's been around forever. He met Manson when he was in prison on drug smuggling charges at Truminal Island in 67. So prior to Manson's release, he gave Manson two or three people in the music industry to see about recording.

2:06:06And Manson was allowed when he was paroled, he was supposed to stay in LA, but he immediately left LA and went to the hay, where he had no connections, he was in violation of his parole. And that's all covered in my book immediately. And do we know why that is? I only speculate, I believe he was sent there to begin what became and that Roger Smith was waiting for him. Yeah. Can you think of an example of a lead that you got that you followed for a long period of time, but it took you nowhere. So, so many. Here's the thing. I did it for 20 years. I would say, you know, So, generously, half of those 20 years were spent on dead ends.

2:06:49And I would spend months digging into something. Give me an example of a data. Well, trying to show that Serhan and West were connected, or if not West, one of his colleagues, at least a year, you know, getting all of the courthouse records, interviewing all of the people who'd written about it. The process, you know, I probably sent months on the process. Those guys, Doyle, Harrogon Dawson, so much of that didn't end up in my book. The one thing I did, I didn't throw away any of my reporting to this day. I have everything in binders. One thing I got very good at that I learned by Asmosis was organizing and indexing all of my stuff.

2:07:32I think there's a photo in my book from six years ago of what my apartment looked like then. And that was when I was in my Venice bungalow, where everything spilled out of the living room where my office was, because it was in one bedroom. It took over the whole place. Now my apartment I've been in since 2014 is due bedroom. I'm able to contain everything in one. But I've got about 400 binders, like black binders, but the stuff that I didn't use, sometimes it all of a sudden did become relevant. So I'd be doing all this reporting, not seats. The Sponsor Ranch was next door to a guy named Frank Ritz, who was in the Nazi party, who somehow got over here and was trying to buy the Sponor Ranch from George Spon.

2:08:21He ends up dying mysteriously a couple years later. His whole Nazi past was hidden from the American authorities. Rocket Dine, which is in Chatsworth, is a rocket mission where they brought the original Nazi scientists and Operation Paperclip, or whatever, all these guys were over there developing in chanceworth. In chanceworth. And if you go there now, I mean, I did a lot of research on that. If you do pull up beyond a certain perimeter, black cars come out. I've not tested it, but if you go too far, a helicopter comes out, it's still existing. So I spend so many months trying to prove that Manson who was a neo -Nazi eventually and Thought Hitler was a genius might have been having contact with these guys somehow.

2:09:09And maybe one out of ten times something I researched heavily became important later. That's why I still to this day have saved everything. Was there any point in the process where you thought the book might never come out? Oh my god. Yeah. So we sold it in 2005 to Scott and Anne Godoth. That was incredible because I had probably one of the best agents in the business and he was a genius. My proposal was 220 pages. It was book -length. My agent made everybody sign an NDA. He went to I think three publishers and two of the three made offers right away and then Anne and Scott offered a pre -empt, meaning they knew that since other publishers were really interested, it could go to auction.

2:10:01So the way it was explained to me is they made a more generous offer than they normally would, hoping to fend off and getting too expensive. And when they made that offer, I said to Sloan, and this is credit to you, I mean, to your book, I said, who is the best publisher in the United States that's going to give me the most, not in lavish, but we're publishing a conspiracy book. He said, if you publish with Penguin Press, you know, they publish the books of presidents and cabinet members, he goes, you're automatically going to have that stamp of approval. It's going to be taken seriously. And I said, so let's go with them.

2:10:41So that was great. I got an enormous offer, Sloan, my age, and lots of big clients. He said he'd never had a first -time author get that kind of money. I'll never forget it. My last, after we sold it, then we had a kind of a celebrity meeting with Scott Nan. And Anne said to me, and she's like revered in the publishing world as being just so fucking smart. She said, your book is here in this proposal. This is the guts. All you need is to fill it out a little bit. And I said, I still need about two or three years. She goes, understood. So in 2012, they canceled my deal. Scott promised me. And I put this in the book.

2:11:21I don't care if he gets mad. He and I had a meeting outside Penguin after. Because I needed to know from him that he hadn't thought I'd gone crazy. And that wasn't why they were canceling it. So he said to me, we have to meet away from the office. And you can't ever tell anybody about this meeting. I think I've talked about it before. It might even be in the book. But he said to me, and he really, I thought he got emotional. He's a nice guy. He said to me, I know that you didn't spend our money the advance on hookers and blow. He goes, I've been to your house. I see the car you drive. I know every penny we gave you went back into that.

2:11:58The one thing you can be assured of is we're never going to try to get the money back. So when you get in advance, you get a third or a quarter. that's what they'd given me, which was a lot, and it was all gone. Six months later, they sued me. And my agent said it was the most humiliating day in the business when he got papers delivered at his desk. So long story short, and he told me, he goes, it was a business decision. When he didn't tell me what happened later, was random house was about to acquire Penguin Press. I found out later, random house said, you've got to cut loose anything that's draining money that's not going to be publishable in like the next six months.

2:12:37I see. Or we're not going to do the sale. It was like a corporate thing. Corporate. And I believe that that was the truth. I don't know why they ended up suing me, but they did. So that put the book on hold. Sohn said to me, he goes, until this lawsuit is resolved, I can't try to resell it. I know you're never going to stop reporting and trying to tell your story. But he goes, I can tell you now, with this black law, Penguin Press, the most respected publishing house, suing you, it's gonna be really hard to sell. But I wouldn't stop, but then I think about that, to actually know before them, when I sold the book to Penguin in 2005, called my parents, then I called one of my best friends, and she said, I promised your mother, I'd never, she was very close to my parents.

2:13:24She said, I promised your mother, I'd never tell her this, but they called me about three years ago to ask because she saw me a lot more than they did in L .A. They were worried about your mental health and they wanted to know from me if you were okay. And I said you were. And when I told my mom, she was, I told her never to tell you that. So, you know, when Penguin pulled the plug, I lost a lot of confidence. Scott said he never stopped believing and he hoped I was going to resell it. But I couldn't stop because I had to validate myself and I knew how many years was it at that time? 2012, so that was 13 years of reporting and then the lawsuit was resolved in 2017 and I never stopped reporting and at that point when it's resolved I started pastoring my agent You got to take it out and he was kind of giving me the brush off I think he didn't, wasn't ready to deal with it again.

2:14:24Yeah. I found somebody who I knew, I knew I needed a collaborator, but I found somebody who was published, but was too old to do it. And I said, Sloan, if you can't find me a collaborator, I'm going with this guy. And he said, I'll meet them. It was two people. And he said, they're sweet. They're accomplished, but in their 80s, they're too old to help you with this. So he said, you know what? I got an idea. Let me call you back in an hour. He calls me back in an hour. He goes, we've got a really young whipper snapper here. The stupidest name, Dan Pipern -Green. He said he's 28 or 29. Never written a book, but he just had to leave a project because the subject died and the subject was Prince.

2:15:08So Prince had hired Dan to be his ghost writer for his book. He had been traveling with Prince for about three months when Prince was touring, getting Prince's story. I was like, I'm going to be a prince dies and then everything has to stop until the estate settled. It was kind of like my lawsuit. Dan couldn't continue. They guess that it would take about two years for the prince of state to be settled. I think it was longer. And I'm like, I'm meet with him, Sloan, but he's 28, 29. He's not even going to know. He wasn't even alive when the man's somewhere. So I met with the first day sent me some articles he'd written.

2:15:44And I could tell the guys like a savante that I met with him. and he became my collaborator in 2017. We revised the proposal, strunker from 220 pages to 30, resold it. You know, I really thought I'm gonna be the crazy old man who's got piles of shit that amount to nothing. When I had those thoughts, I had written down on an index card, six or seven bullet points of my most important findings that had never been reported. and I would pull it out and look at it, and that would reinvigorate me not to give up. But when you ask how many times did I think it was not gonna be a book? Sometimes once a day for a year, you know, I would wake up at night, that was my nightmares.

2:16:29Has there been talk of a film of the book? Yeah, yeah, we originally sold it to Amazon Studios. They got a hold of the little brump, the 2017 proposal, which they weren't supposed to get. There was an embargo, but they got it, and bought the scripted rights in 2017. And I didn't want to do it because I said to slow my agent, I said they want to do a feature film. They haven't seen the book, but when they see the book, they're not gonna be able to do it. That's gonna be like a series on streaming or whatever. And so I said, well, wait till they get the book. He said, if you don't do it, because I was so broke.

2:17:07And borrowing money, driving an Uber at that point, I just started that and I hated it. He goes, you'll get this chunk of money, and then you and Dan can just do the book for the next year and a half. So I took it, they renewed the option, which is great. Got a writer, great writer, guy I really liked. He came out and spent a week with me, and at the end of the week, you know, he said, now I know why I took you 20 years. And he goes, and I don't know how I'm gonna do this, because they're still insisting on a feature film. How am I gonna condensate? So he wrote it with his hands tied behind his back, a year, a year and a half later, he turned it into Amazon and they pulled the plug on it.

2:17:46I had been working with Errol Morris in 2014. When Penguin filed the lawsuit, Errol had originally been approached by Scott, who's his editor at Penguin Press. Errol's written some books. He thought he'd be perfect for me. And I said, okay, let him read the original proposal. And I'll read it and then Scott sent an email. It was from Errol to him saying, I don't want to write this guy's book. I want to do a movie of it. This was when it was still in play. They hadn't canceled the deals. It was a guy said, all right, we'll get back to you when the book is done. Jump ahead, the things canceled. And all of a sudden, I'm like, as long as I can't resell it for two or three years, maybe I'll reach out to Errol, and if he still wants to make a film, I can do that just to get some money.

2:18:27And it might be the only way I'm ever able to tell the tale. So I just took his email address. I'd never communicated with him. I sent him an email saying, I don't know if you know, was Penguin Canceled My Deal. I'm being sued. I checked with a lawyer, and they don't own the film rights, just the book, and there's no book. So if you're still interested, he called me that day. So long story short, for a year he and I worked together developing it. And I have a love -hate relationship with Errol. After we'd shot a teaser, and he sold it to Netflix, as a series, which is what I wanted, with, you know, someone who a lot of people think is the best documentary, Film Leaker, Alive.

2:19:10He suddenly changed his vision. There's a guy named Eric Olson, whose father, Frank Olson, was probably killed by the CIA. Warmoid. Yeah, so I'm talking about that in art, when he's filming me. He came to LA and filmed me in my bungalow for a day, and then on the soundstage, talking about the Olson case and talking about Eric. He says, oh, do you think Eric would be interviewed by me? And I said, it's very reclusive, very private, but he's going to know who you are and respect you. So why don't you call him? So he called him and then a few months later, Errol says, you know, I'm changing my vision.

2:19:45I wanted it to be Eric's story chasing his father's death, you chasing your thing and I'm going to intermingle them. And I'm like, Errol, this might be the only telling of all of my years of work at that point, 15 years or whatever. I go, I can't let you do that. I have to be the subject and I know that's grandiose, but I can't share it with another guy's story. It's not what I signed up for. And luckily Sloan had crafted this structured contract where right before they green -liteted Netflix, I could pull out if I didn't like where it was going. And I was furious. But then Wormwood came out of that.

2:20:22And Wormwood was incredible. Too long, it should have been a little shorter, but I think he had to fill in the space. Eric's story is amazing and I, he spent three times as long as I did researching and he's still doing it. And I'm still very good friends. And it's more personal. Very much more. I mean, it's his whole, he lives in the house that is... What's bothering him? Disappeared from. Unbelievable story. He still lives there, it's tragic. But they did warn what it was great and then when the Amazon deal ended in like 2021 under something. I happened to listen to Errol on a podcast with his son, Hamilton.

2:21:00And Hamilton was at my bungalow when Errol shot me there in Dundas in 2014. Errol had put like 12 cameras in the bungalow, like the ceiling hidden everywhere and everything was remotely controlled from another bungalow that happened to be empty. His team took it over and it looked like a NASA command center. And there was just Errol and I in my bungalow and then one woman who was there to pull lens on one big camera I found out later she was really there because I actually knew her previously through her friend and They knew how anxious I was and they knew she could call me. She was there to be my comfort Blanket.

2:21:41Kelly Simpson. She was great. And she was an assistant DP So Hamilton brings it up in the podcast and he says He goes, the one thing I can't believe is we're never going to see that footage you shot. And I always say, stop right now. He goes, legally, I'm not even allowed to talk about it. And Hamilton's like, well, if we don't name the person or what he was doing, he goes, I just want to talk about what you did to that bungalow that you were shooting in. And I always said, that is the best footage I've ever shot in my career. And this is like 2021, which is a lot of films. And he goes, and to think that that's going to be in my vault and never seen by anyone and it was heartbreaking to me.

2:22:20So then Hamilton and he talked about how they set things up without revealing me. So I emailed him the next day and I said, I heard you on Hamilton's podcast, they're all just so you know, I don't think there was an NDA. I talk about it working with you to everyone. That's like, you know, that gets me tash A. And if you're still interested, believe it or not, it's available again, because Amazon pulled the plug on the scripted. He called me like within an hour, I couldn't believe it. Anyway, so I was so angry at you. And I go, well, I was just as pissed off it. You know, we have that. So long story short, now he's doing a documentary film, not a series, and this is getting into the mechanics and the business, but for whatever reason, he'll tell why they didn't wanna do a series, they only wanna do it a feature.

2:23:04So he's condensing my book in the 90 minutes. And he's shooting, you know, he's great at what he does. I've seen a few thoughts. I'll probably be great. It'll just be some aspect of the book. So you can't do it with any of this. Yeah, so I'm supposed to see I think I've never seen the whole thing I've seen the first two thirds How was it? It's he's so good at what he does Yeah, yeah, and you know my fear was he's gonna make me look either mentally ill. No Yes, he's known for making people look kind of nuts because we are nuts But no he treated me and my reporting on my material with respect So that fear was out of the way I'm just frustrated because I feel like some of it's glossed over not me, but the information we're trying to impart.

2:23:47But you have 90 minutes. You have to, you know, I know. I know. And I'm gonna see. So I think this week, I'm supposed to get the next cut with the ending. Great. And then they have to turn in a funnel cut in May. I was told, I don't know. So when would it air? In the fall. Amazing. And I don't know what the fall is. Is that September, October? Is it gonna be called chaos or we don't know? That's the working title. Yeah. The working title is chaos, you know, who knows? But it's me, Bob -Bob -Line. So he used a lot of the footage he shot in 2014. And then he had me come out to Boston where he's based.

2:24:22And he rented this old school on the coast like an hour away. It's a famous location that there's a movie called Code, or that won an Oscar for best picture about five years ago. And half of the movie takes place in this abandoned school. You know, they make it. So he did all of his haunting arrow setups. Well, I have cameras like I'm way up in the ceiling. It'll zoom down to me. Wow. And he has all kinds of weird, I won't spoil it. Weird effects. I can't wait to see that. He's good at what he does. Yeah. What do we know about Tex Watson's statement to the police? Oh, the tapes. These are audio tapes that are the first recorded version of how the murders occurred and why text Watson was tape recorded by his lawyer in Texas.

2:25:09He turned himself in to the sheriff who was his mother's cousin. The sheriff called the family lawyer and this is before he was charged. They were looking for him and it was before Manson and the family had been announced. It was day after Thanksgiving 69. So, tactics sound out. They were looking for him. They found out he was in McKinney, this little town. So they called the sheriff. He said, all find him and you can come question him or I'll see what happens. So he called up Tex and Texas was brought in by his mother and father. He'd been home for about a month. And Bill Boyd said, what do you have to do with a murder?

2:25:48They wouldn't even tell me what the murder was. And he said, I don't know what they're talking about. I have nothing they do, it's crazy. And he said, okay, his name is Charles. He says, Charles, I'm going to let you sit here for a half hour. I'm going to go out with your parents, get lunch or coffee. And then I'll come back and if that's your story, that's what we'll tell them. But you might want to rethink it because if you are responsible for anything, you need to tell me now, I'll be your lawyer. It will be confidential and I'll protect you. So he came back and this is a story, but boy told me on tape in 2000.

2:26:23Who told you the story? The lawyer in 2008 on tape. He said to me, he goes, so I go back and I go Charles, are you still sticking to that story? He goes, well, no, he goes, they're coming to talk to me about the murder of an actress, you know Sharon Tate. And Bill boy, so I know about that case, he goes, well, I killed her. And then Bill said, will you tell me the whole story? And he said as long as it's protected. So he took out a cassette recorder and he taped him. He told me for 20 hours over two or three days. The detectives came, he wouldn't admit to anything. They couldn't take them out of custody because Bill Boyd wouldn't allow them.

2:27:00So that was a prolonged, I think, almost nine months long process to extradite him back. But that tape recording is the first account of how and why the murders happened before anything was published before they got the next account from Susan Atkins, which was compromised, which I won't get into because I could take another half of that. Just tell me why it was compromised. I don't know. So she had a public defender. She had been charged with a murder of Gary Himman who was killed a week before it ate La Bianca, a musician and student in Topanga Canyon. She killed him with Mary Bruner and Bobby Bosele.

2:27:37So she had been arrested and charged for that. While she was in her jail cell, she started bragging about being involved in the tape murders. one or two of her jail cells called up, reported her to the police. The police went in and questioned the cellmates. They said they testified to it. So they were going to charge her with tape murders. But she had a public defender named Gerald Condon. And they had a meeting. I found this out when I got access to files that hadn't been reported before. The DA's office had a meeting saying, we've got to get somebody on our side to represent her. So they had her court appointed attorney illegally removed from the case at her next arraignment in Hinman, and they replaced him with a former deputy DA who had just gone into private defense practice that year named Dick Caballero and his partner Paul Caruso.

2:28:34She was never told why I was able to interview who could conned an NS brother who was his partner, and they both said, we were stunned. We went to her arraignment, and the judge announces that we're being taken off the case. I gave us no reason. We could have fought for it. Both of our wives said, we don't want you involved with this because they were starting to whisper that she might be charged with tape. And he said, my biggest regret is that I didn't fight for that girl. So I found minutes to the meeting, which was completely in Proper where the deputy DA to Evelyn Younger, guy named David Fentz said, I can get to clinical the judge in that case, will have Cundin removed and replaced with Cabalero.

2:29:17The judge isn't allowed to do any of this and nothing can be done without Cundin finding out. So they did it behind the scene. So from that day forward, she started telling a story scripted by the DA's office for her. Wow. She got a deal which was they weren't gonna execute her if she played guilty. She got life in prison. They knew that she would never stay on their side. They just needed her grand jury testimony because it was hard to indict Manson since he wasn't at the scene of the murders. They needed her to talk about him ordering it. She later said, everything I said was scripted by the DA.

2:29:52She went back to Manson and ended up getting the death penalty like all of them and all the death penalties were commuted when the States Supreme Court ruled death penalty. How often is someone associated with a murder, but not a scene and not a stab or a shooter? Not too often. And that's what, I mean, the whole Helter's Helter really is about then having to prove that Manson had ordered these murders, that he was guilty of conspiracy without him being at the scene of the tape murders. Has anyone ever been charged with conspiracy to commit murder that goes to jail for life? God, that's a good question.

2:30:33I feel like, now I'm gonna look it up when I get home. Okay, I'm curious. And actually, why didn't I think of that when I was writing the book? Because if nobody had, that would have been important. And I know it can't be a lot. Yeah, it can't be. It just seems so wild. Well, I'm now thinking about that teenager who was convicted of murder for getting a guy to kill himself on the phone. She persuaded him to commit suicide. I don't know about that. It became a great movie. I know the guy who wrote the New York Times magazine article. Not really conspiracy, but she got second degree murder for telling this guy had to kill himself because he was a nothing and his family hated him.

2:31:11The guy was messed up and he did it, but she didn't physically kill him. But I have to look that up, Rick. That's a good question. Was the Manson trial filmed? No, no cameras in the courtroom. Not to L .O .J. Yeah, no. But you know, the courtroom artists were there every day and you know they were all acting up Manson carved an ex on his forehead the girls did it the next day they shaved their heads Manson lunged at the judge at one point with a pen to try to stab him Have you seen all of the unedited Manson interviews Tom Snyder, Harald O? No, I mean maybe the first year I watched a bunch of them, you know because I interviewed him and I needed to see How did you interview him?

2:31:54I don't know this again one of the most frustrating parts of all this so I reached out to He's a handler outside of Pat, you know He's dead and he had a follower named Gray Wolf Who was outside the prison walls and he would follow Manson because he went through like three or four different Presons and he would handle all of Manson's correspondence money So he would go to the visiting hours and yeah and share information I see he was like his manager And for years, so in 2000 when I got the assignment, I knew I had to interview them and I found out that that was the way he had to go through Greybeard.

2:32:32So I actually wrote Manson a letter. With the prison tell you you have to go through Greybeard? No, no, no. Actually, I'm revising that. I didn't know that. I sent a letter to Manson. Manson gave it to Greybeard or maybe Greybeard got it first and he contacted me. And he wanted money and I said I can't pay a subject. But you know, I've got a lot of new information. I tantalized him with some stuff. Nothing that exonerated Manson, but also implicated. So he got curious. He persuaded Manson to do it. He goes, but the thing is you can't see him in person because he's in the hole. He's in solitary because he's about he always gets in trouble.

2:33:09So when you're in the hole, you're allowed out like one night a week to make phone calls. So they set it up for me to talk to him on the phone now. I knew that just seeing those interviews you talk about, Tom Snyder or all though, however many, even face to face, it's hard to get him to stay straight and answer, but I thought in the phone it's gonna be impossible, but I gotta try. So I had three phone calls with him, and he played the same games he did with them. I think the first or second call I got angry at him. He had a guy inside called Pinkushin, It was his inside shadow guy who protected him.

2:33:45And he was called Pink Cushion because he was stabbed so many times. So Manson would get upset with me. Keshaw would grab the phone and say, you can't talk to the old man like that. You're pissing him off. Show some respect. I said, I'm just asking him questions. So at one point, Gray Wolf said to me in between some of these calls when Manson stopped talking to me, he said, you got to understand why he's so pissed. And I said, I'm not asking anything that implicates him. I'm just asking him about meltdowns, stuff like that. So he goes, hear, listen to the audio of him talking to me about you. So Grey Wolf would always be patched into our call.

2:34:21So Manson's inside, I'm outside, Grey Wolf's outside. And after I got off, Manson was complaining to him about me. But when he talked to Grey Wolf, he's like, you know, this own young guy, I can tell he's really done his research and is reporting. But I don't want to talk about A -Beers. And I said, Wolf, he sounds like he could be a paralegal or he sounds coherent. Why don't I get that Charlie? I get crazy Charlie. And you're just showing him now. He's playing a part. He's not. And Wolf's like, oh, I shouldn't have played you that tape. But anyway, I got like one more call with him. And then I didn't get anything I thought that was usable.

2:34:58And then about seven or eight years later, I'd gone on a road trip for eight months where I flushed out a lot of Manson family members who had never been approached before. I think maybe eight or nine, and I think only one or two talked to me. The others chased me off their properties, threatened me. He found out, Manson found out I was doing that. And I came back from that trip and I called Grey Wolf and I said, grad, love to get another shot at Charlie. And he called back and he left the message on my answering machine. He goes, oh, Tom, I can arrange that. He goes, the old man, he, you know, he liked you in the end.

2:35:32And the good news is you can come see him because he's not in the hole. Wow. But then like an hour later I get another message from Wolf saying, never call me again. He goes, you have no idea how pissed off the old man. So he reached out to Charlie. Yeah. They canceled it. Have you met any of Manson's children? I don't think I've met any face to face. So Mary Bruner's son, the one we were talking about earlier, who got fostered by Roger Smith and his wife, Michael. formerly Michael Valentine and then Poo Bear was his name the last couple years on the ranch. He reached out to me when my book came out and he's working on a memoir and just a really nice guy.

2:36:15You know, his mother did end up going to prison, not for the murder she participated in, which was Gary Himmung for trying to break Manson out of jail before he went to prison. and they did an armed hold -up heard about three or four of their members in like 71, I think, and author of a sporting goods store, and there was a shootout. So she went to prison for that, and Michael was actually sent to his grandparents when she was arrested the first time, when she was a suspect in Tate LaBianca and inman. So he was raised by his grandparents in Wisconsin, and now he's like a carpenter, contractor, single dad.

2:36:55And one of the, I talked to him on the phone, one of the gentlest, sweetest guys in the world. He was born in I think 67, so I don't know how old that is, but you know, he knows I would give my left not to interview as mother. She's never given an interview. Wow. Since she got out of prison, she hasn't given an interview probably since she was being tried in like 70. And I said, I'm not going to push that. I go, but if she ever decides to talk to someone, I go, and here's another thing. There's just a couple questions if you could ask her this and he's done it for me. So he's the only one I think.

2:37:36Oh, there's another guy who lives out here and he's been able to prove it by DNA. He just found out about three or four years ago. He was Manson's biological son from like late 50s. I told you Manson was out in LA in 58, 59. and he was fathered by Manson. And now there's a court battle for Manson's rights and remains. You know, everything that Manson collected in prison for 50 years is in storage and possession of the courts. Whoever gets that can sell it to all the crazy collectors for lots and lots of money. Some of his music rights, I think, are valuable. So there's two of his friends who are claiming one has a will that Manson said that he says Manson's sign that's being disputed.

2:38:26Another one has some evidence that Manson was leaving his estate to him. There's another fraudulent son who definitely isn't his son but who says he actually grants son and then Michael. So there's like five and now there's new guy. There's five or six people. This is an ongoing case that's been going on for about three or four years where they're all fighting for possession of Manson's stuff. Did you ever speak to Kurt Gentry? Yeah. Tell me about that. So Kurt Gentry was Vince's co -author for Halter Skeleton. Vince never worked with the same co -author twice. He wrote about eight or nine books.

2:39:02All those true crime books had a co -author, which I'm not discounting. I mean, Dan Mines saved my life. But I talked to two or three of them, one of them who sued Vince, none of them liked them. Kurt, and said it ended amicably, but then started telling Kurt not to talk to me. So the last time I talked to Kurt about, he was very generous on the phone with me a couple times with information, but within the same year I called him and he said, I know what you're doing now. He goes, don't call me again. I said, whatever Vince is telling you, you've got to hear me out and he just hung up on me. So he died.

2:39:39Only two thousand and five years ago, I wanted to get his files because I knew he had a lot. He told me he had files. So he had stuff in storage. He had no kids, but he left it to a sister who left it to a kid and all went to auction because it wasn't claimed and I couldn't trace it. So who knows where it ended up. You want to tell me about what it was like driving a horse in Central Park, which was lucky? How long did you do it for? I thought it was going to be a summer job, it turned into eight years off and on. And that's when I started getting published, is I would be up there on slow nights, I mostly work nights, and I would just bring like a whole bunch of magazines to read.

2:40:21And I thought I can do this, and I had never studied journalism. I finished NYU, and it was great because, you know, I've been in, I transferred NYU, so I was only there two years at that point. But I started driving the carriage, and I'd work from like five or six at night until three in the morning for the morning. And at that point, a horse, a carriage who go anywhere in the city of Carcacca really. And about 70 % of the drivers were immigrants, predominantly Irish, then Italian, then Polish. And they were just all characters. I only did a full time for a year, but for the next seven years, I would do seasonal.

2:40:58Like the prom season was big, Christmas was big, the beginning of fall was big, the beginning of spring. So I do it a two, three months at a time. And it really showed me a side in New York. I don't think I ever would have seen because you're out there in Times Square, Central Park. I go down to the village with the horse through four in the morning. And you're seeing that whole other nightly world. And you know, at one point, and people are delighted by the horse and buggy. People like seeing it. And I was always conflicted about the horses. My stable had, I think, the largest stable of horses.

2:41:33And he He loved the horses more, the owner loved the horses more than he liked his drivers and he told us that. He goes, I don't care what happens to you, fuckers, but don't let one of my horses get hurt. But I still had, you know, conflicted feelings about doing it. But I really, romantically, you know, I have amazing stories from that period of stuff that either I experienced as a driver or witness. There was a woman who was a great screenwriter named Jay Presson Allen who wanted to do a TV series based on me driving the carriage. It got close and then she got interested in something. I was, she put it on a shelf and it never happened.

2:42:11But I have all of the stuff we wrote together. It's one of those things that I have kind of an adora that I think, when I want to get away from the subject, I've got to do either a carriage, a memoir, or some kind of film or something.