Trent Reznor

31:37But no understanding of how to go about doing anything or you know. So anyway around how the songs were coming I remember when I met you a while later and it was tips on strategies keep writing right lots of songs right stuff. And so and so has 100 songs that's always waiting I thought 100 fucking songs I've written 14 songs you've heard all of 12 of them you know. You might have played 13 and 14 that night too. Yeah, because yeah, maybe that's true. And I would refine and refine and refine rather than you know, I mean, I didn't you didn't think it was obsessively concerned with any little tweak you could do on one.

32:36Yeah, instead of thinking well, I could write five more songs and maybe one of them will be even better than this one I won't have to tweak it like you never know until you to you get all of them out. And even thought about that. You never know. Do you remember at that time was the music the thing that led it in other words would you have a musical track and then see which of the diary like words would work or did it ever start with the words. There were usually two things happening separate. And then an unknown moment. I can't remember it ever being kind of a planned now is the time where I take the ideas and match them up so you'd be writing poetry essentially.

33:23And then you'd be working on instrumental tracks. Yeah, seeing what was exciting in the world of music because I was also that that was also unknown. Yeah, I didn't know if it was like I said I didn't have the band that was helping to find that sound could be anything. And at some point if somewhat organically as I recall there would be. He that feels like it goes with that and I think subconsciously I had been thinking that but I didn't but not didn't know you were thinking about it. No, later in life now I've done much more the thing I have. The thing that feels strange to me now is not to jump ahead to the.

34:01It's fine feel free to the later stage. No, I work with that. And I like to make this a lot. And a lot of the what it allows me to do is there's a mode I get in where I'm not thinking. I'm in a zone and I'm. I'm not being editorial consciously I'm not analyzing what's happening. I'm just kind of feeling where I'm at. A lot of times we'll do this with films where what I find exciting about working on film. As a side job is here's a scenario. That needs to feel a certain way. I like kind of inhabiting where I think that character is and it's refreshing that it's not me it's not my voice. It's not my story in a variation of the same story or something.

34:55Here's the guy over here feels like a new thing or person or whatever it might be. And just being able to kind of social network with Fincher when it was presented to us as a job with no formal training in how to score film. I've seen a lot of films. I know I don't like the music in a lot of films and some I do. Most I don't even pay attention to. I'm just kind of lost in a film. I think what I know I don't know how to do is score an eight second scene of someone walking upstairs. Is that a chorus? Is that a melody going there? Should it need to be in time? And what was fun to do with that project having no idea how to approach it.

35:48And here's a film that's not about vistas and battles and outer space journeys or canvases where lots of sound can sit. It's just people talking the whole time arguing. I don't know how to put on a music. Is there even room for music in there? Once you sort of think about that story could be about a guy that believes in something so much that he. It feels he's justified in doing it kind of fucks everybody over because he really thought it was the right thing to do. And there's kind of left feeling you won but did you win? I kind of know what that feels like. You know what I mean? Like I can relate to I didn't make Facebook but I know around that feeling.

36:41And then trying to make music not thinking just from a place of what comes out instinctually that's wherever it's coming from. It's a long wind way of wanting up to say this. A lot of times what Atticus can do, particularly in the film side of it is be the guy thinking and paying attention to what note you played and what phrase was better than what other phrase. And it allows me the freedom of getting lost in the exploration as the composer is the subconscious turning stuff out. Because normally what would happen is F in the world of film or even writing songs a lot of times what I'll do is just jam with myself.

37:27Often playing something and picking up on the instrument without stopping with tape or computer thinking I know this is going to go with the thing I just did even I'm not hearing what I just did. And we know each other enough to know now. We don't really have to talk anymore. We can kind of sense where he can see me circling around an idea until I kind of get around it and then I'm moving on to something else. And I know he knows I'm going to we mean to put these together and try it. It's nice after doing that for anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour and a half at one chunk. To walk out of the room and sit outside for a minute or go see my kids or change the scene.

38:09Come back and it's starting to someone's already moved pieces around you know rather than okay now let me sit back down and you know you're not starting from scratch. And one could say it's the role of an editor but it's more than that's a ranger and it's also it's a collaborator in a way that goes beyond and he's picking you know he's making the choices. Yeah he's curating your performance in a way and I'm trusting his choices because we know each other and how do you meet him. 30 years ago ish. John mom signed 12 rounds which was his ban with his wife to nothing records the end of that little 10 year late 90s.

38:52And right when I got in silver and I was the world was raw and different you know and a little uncomfortable initially. He and his wife came down to do something with 12 rounds and we just kind of in the studio. I felt like someone I could communicate with in a way that and also on a friendship level we had we're not from the same lifestyles you know but I just had a kind of something clicked. And anyway that led to I was going to work on try some non -signal stuff and had him come down as kind of the guy sitting in front of the computer and doing essentially what he does now with me. But we just have a mutual friendship and respect.

39:53But what's the first album you work together with him on? We've been with teeth for for nine snales. Remember one point relatively early in our relationship. We were with Zach from rage. He would come to work on his cello stuff with us is kind of the. Forals that was a good bonding experience for us because it was a scenario of madness. You know in a fun to look back at way but frustrating in the moment. Yeah well it was educational in a lot of ways. I have a lot of respect for Zach but I could see I could see my traits in him where I could see it in him. And then I'd think Christ you know that's frustrating.

40:48But I would recognize after he left now I'm doing the same I'm doing my own version of that same thing but I didn't see it as clearly you know fear based. I'm saying anything dismissive of Zach but at that time I want to do something that doesn't sound like rage in this machine. Okay what about this? I can't do that because it's kind of not what I do. Okay how about this? Well that's like rage and it's machine. Okay how about not that than this? Yeah but that's not like rage and how about go surfing? Yeah I mean and let's not be in joy. You know but I saw I did a lot of the same shit when I'm left my own devices.

41:37So the first album you say it takes about a year maybe a little more to make? I think it was being made while I'm figuring out how to engineer and put pieces together so there's an I have a tea you know. The tape is almost worn out by the time the song feels like it's finessed to the point and endless amounts of tweaking and revising not knowing any better. Yeah that gets to a point where I've got ten songs I'm going to be on the album. We now have a record deal with TVT. Who do you want to produce it? You know in my mind producer that's going to be what you end up being. You know cerebral, thoughtful, task master in a good way.

42:32You know what I mean? Someone taking charge, someone a sounding board helping you articulate what you're trying to say. And maybe nudging you into a place way better than you ever could have gotten. You know that's what I'm thinking you know that's what I'm looking for. You know I've seen names on albums and I those albums I kind of like and that name's been on a few of them. Was it them? I don't know anybody. I didn't manage the first one. So I made a list of some people that it worked me out. Flood was one of those names. John Friar was a name on there. That did a lot of 4 AD records. I had a spooky reverb -y sound.

43:18And it wound up being that flood only had time to do two songs. But he could do two tracks. So I was going to go up to for whatever reason the car studio in Boston. And then right from there, fly to London to spend the next 20 days with John Friar in his studio and finish the album. And when you say finished the album, was this using the tracks that you had already recorded or starting from scratch? I've got my tapes. We're going to do whatever we can and mix two days of song. What would you say was mainly done during that period of time? Was it more vocals or...? Here's what was interesting. We go to the car studio, Syncro Sound with Flood.

44:04I meet him for the first time. I discovered him through to Peshmo and Night's Rob. He is very cerebral, not as mentory, not as artistic. I'm just being honest as you. An engineer that has learned about arrangement, as tasteful. We were talking a lot about synth programming. He's excited about how I got that sound and wants to... But at the same token, we did head like a hole in terrible eye with him. And sits down and says, to start with. Bow down before that's got to go right at the beginning and that's the chorus. That's not the chorus, that's the fact. Try it. Immediately, it's like a... Of course, I've heard that 200 ,000 times.

44:56Never dawned on me that that's hooky. Right off the bat was like, I went into these sessions. I'm here to learn. I'm open to any idea. But I know what I walk out of here at the end of the day is what might be what I'm wind up with. So I'm going to get firm if I need to. You have to love it. I have gone this far for it to take a shit. It didn't finish a lot. You literally have two days of track. All there is money for. It's 45 grand. That's your budget. We do these two songs. I leave with them sounding a bit different than I'm used to hearing. I had a whole particularly. Okay, wow. Did you like it?

45:53I did like it. It was different, but I knew it was right. The end of that story is we went back and mixed, had a whole. It just got a different mix, but not a different arrangement. It was just the mix we did needed something. It was a little sterile. But then I went to London. I didn't get that same feeling. I'm in London for the first time. Across the ocean for the first time. I'm trying to pretend I'm not freaked out. I show up and I immediately realize I don't have any chemistry with the person I'm working with. I'm just going to be a little bit more careful. It's a much more of a carefree.

46:38Let's just see what happens. I'll smoke it in a joint. Put some sounds up and just put some noise in. Okay. It was about halfway through the second day when. Uncomfortable. I have to say, listen, I have to love what leaves here. This might be it. You're going to do another record next week. I don't think we should have reverb on that thing. Well, I think it's the best thing in the song. Fuck you. If it's going to escalate to that level of just turn it down or I'll turn it down myself. Where did you get the confidence to do it? It's great that you did. Because I thought this is my only shot. I believe in this album.

47:26Yes. I've instinctually got to the ship this far. Can it be better? Yes. Let's make it better. I can't make it better. Of course. But let's see. But when I knew this isn't better. Yeah. And it also felt wrapped up in. I don't respect your process for me. I don't believe we're having a fundamental difference in artistic vision. I think you're being lazy. Yeah. And I think you don't give a fuck. And now I don't trust what you're saying. Yes. So that kind of set the tone for that two weeks. And we didn't get it. And you kept working together after that. I didn't have a choice. Right. Because I just talked the record label into me using this producer that wasn't the guy that did fun.

48:15Or hit him.

48:25But there's these twenty percent audience performance record that I'm brighter than before.

48:37Both me and my close skips, vegetables, my friends. If you can solve life problems. But if you're not, someone can use sex to solve life problems. Yeah. And his pro Majesty. And then when he's not writing, because he could mix and I had my own thing, but it wasn't, I wouldn't say it's, so he's telling more finished, but it didn't sound finished in the way that you would have liked it to be finished. I think in my mind, I imagined the transformation that took place with head like a hole where there was some structural change. There was an outside opinion that clearly was the right. It made it better.

49:09You know, it wasn't, there's a little more sizzle on the high hat, it gives a fuck, you know, with subtle. The mixing changes were basically, I had done the work, just put the faders up. He added the vocals level sound more pro than what I'd done. He knew how to use a compressor, but other than I did, I'm not being disparaging to his mixes. They were better than my mixes, but they didn't, we got into a tone where it became, okay, what do you want to do? I'm gonna re -sing that voice, you mix and don't put too much reverb on that, but see if you can get the drums to sound better. Okay, that's kind of what it turned into, rather than let's see what we can come up with.

49:52I didn't want it to be that way, but the alternative was... I'm out of you for making it happen. I didn't feel like I had a choice, you know, because I knew that could be it. Yeah. And if it is it, then I don't want to feel like, well, it could have been better, but... Yeah. You know, I'll never see this guy again, which I haven't.

50:21Anyway, we get back, I get back. I probably spent $5 ,000 in long -distance phone calls to my manager, saying, crying, you know, man, this is not what I've hoped it was gonna be, and, you know, I don't know. Anyway, filled with a little doubt now, back in the States, back home, turned the record in, don't hear anything for two weeks. Then I, clear as day, I remember for some reason I was back in my bedroom, I grew up in my grandparents' house, landline, and getting the call in like a Friday night, because I remember it was an odd time. I don't know why I was there, but I'm on the phone with Steve Gottlady minutes.

51:11I just gotta tell you, Trent, I think the record's an abortion. That's, I'm not exaggerating. I think you've, I think you fucked your career up before it even started. Okay. This could have been a hit record, you know, but instead you could try to make it fucking weird, and, you know, you've, you've submerged in each answer that's getting played on the radio, and I really don't know what to even tell you. Okay. Well, I disagree with you. Well, and that was the, that was the kind of crux of the thing, and then, you know, some, some pretty sad conversations with my manager at the time, but it was, you know what?

51:55Fuck that dude. We've, we've assessed what happened in the mixes, and they're not, it isn't bad. It's better than it was as demos. It's, it's not some imagined thing that could have been. It's what it is, and it's, and it is fucking good. So we ask, I think, for another five grand to see if we could mix, have like a hole with a different, a little more exciting mix, and something else we next to, not reinvented, but mixed. And they agreed to put the record out, and that was kind of how, how the whole process started. And jumping ahead, paraphrasing, what happened after that, our approach was, we just want to work and try to get the word out, because we think it's a great record.

52:43Some decisions were made about how to present the band live, and how to, how to, what recipe to put together that I think were wise decisions that made in terms of how it felt when you saw it, how, how we were going to play it, pull it off. Tell me about those, tell me about those decisions. This record did not come about with people workshopping it, and then recording it. It was the opposite of that. It was workshopped with the instrument being the studio, trying to figure out, what is it I have to say if anything, and how to, how to emotionally convey it, learning with the tools I had at minus -posal, which wasn't a great live drummer.

53:24It was machines and that stuff. So then I've got a record where one song is eight guitars, a drum machine, the next song is no guitars, and 15 keyboards, and the next song is whatever it is. Who do I put on stage to, what does that look like from the audience? And I just told the story the other day, because I did a thing for retrospective on Lollapalooza. And it reminded me of something that was, for me, a pretty pivotal thing, which was when I was working on a pre -8 machine. And I may have fucked up the timeline here, but before night -in -chennials is out playing live, and I'm trying to think about how to make it work in my mind.

54:18What I don't want to do is have someone faking playing drum, standing up, hitting a pad. I don't want to do that. I want it to feel visceral, and I want it to feel like it can fuck up if it needs to. It can have some volatility to it. Jane's addiction puts out nothing shocking. I had not heard the triple X -tracker before that. Chris Frenner brings that record home, and right after Dela Sol, let's check this out. I don't know. Kind of retro, kind of fucking weird, kind of cool. Kind of, I'm not sure. It was in that phase of the first exposure, right? Sounds weird, you know, but it sounds cool, but is it cool?

55:06Or is it, you know? Now, also, as I recall, they're on Warner Brothers, and Warner Brothers is really pushing the shit out of this band. And it was the opposite of what we had, right? And they're gonna be playing at the club downtown Cleveland, and P -bodies down under, and it's subsidized by the record label, it's only five bucks to go see him. I'm Mother Fucker, you know, I'm jealous of that. You know? All right, let's go see him. And it was at that perfect time where we heard the record handful of times, enough that we're familiar with it, don't quite get it. Not an avant -garde, I don't understand it way, just a much, I don't know yet.

55:50It reminds me of something that you told me. I don't get to in a second. Standing in the middle of the floor, this club, they come out. It was so fucking good. I mean, it sounded great. They looked like freaks. Perry was hypnotic and in a weird trance and a, God damn, you know, I look at Chris and he's looking at me like, defeated in a good way. And I'm like, just utterly inspired. Inspired in a, all right. I'm coming at it with a little competitive, like, you know, and it's okay. That's where the bar is in terms of we have to be able to make an audience do that. Not with the same rules and levers, but it has to feel as vibrant and as dangerous and as volatile and beautiful as that.

56:45I can't be of fucking tape playing back. It has to have that thing that makes it, you know. And that became a kind of thing we thought about quite a bit in terms of, I say me, Chris and I, figuring out how to pull it off. And the decision was made to have a drummer playing real drums and have a guitar player, but keep that aspect of the sound that we like, which is the mechanized sequence, rigidness, the purposely non -human bit of it. And the easiest way to do that would just be put it on a track of tape. So it's two things can break the tape or the tape machine. But it's not a computer and a fucking bullshit, right?

57:31Drummer has a click. There's a playback track of sequence live band. Let's try it. And in that recipe, I thought worked really well. What was on the tracks versus what was played live? Was there any redundancy or no? Usually it would be headluck hole, 16th note sequence. What we didn't want to do is, you know, when you see the hip hop act at the awards show, and there's a 60 piece fucking band with a horn section in live drums and it sounds like shit because it's not the loop. It's not gritty. It feels pro and it feels stupid. You know, we didn't want that feeling. I remember seeing Howard Jones or something that did the same thing where it's like, here's a track that sounds cool because it's three cents playing.

58:26But now you've got world's greatest session drummer and you know background singers down the street and says not what the song is. The choice of having machines on the record is because I like the way the machine sounded. Yeah, you know, part of it was I didn't have people but it became the machine. It gave the music a personality that was different than if it was people playing. And if that has that rigid 16th note thing, I'd make sure what's around it is in conflict with that or interacting with that. It's intentional. There also wasn't anyone else making alternative rock music in that way. If you think about it, it wasn't like the music that was being made, nobody was making it like you were.

59:14The people who were making music like you were were prince and the depeche modes of the world, but they weren't competing with Jane's addiction. It was a different thing. And from what the stuff I was listening to aside from those, the more heavier electronic stuff, where you could pick up the inspirations and the lifts, they weren't writing songs, you know, they were doing a thing. It wasn't about not being a song. So all those Billie Jol albums and shit, they worked their way in out of the years. Anyway, the band turned out the way it did and what I found as we started playing live was to my amazement, the songs could adapt into a, they got more visceral.

1:00:11I got angry or generally some of the arrangements on the album listening back after playing for a few months felt. And I wish I would have had the band to play before we did the record because it would have sounded differently. It was incredibly live. I saw you at that point in time and it was incredible. It was fun. And it felt like it felt real. It felt like I could think through the recipe to set it up, but it had its own validity. You know, it felt like the right thing at the right time. And it also had a, in terms of stage craft, there was production as well that didn't feel like the Howard Jones example.

1:01:01In some ways, I remember the first time I saw you when you got big time production. And I felt like what kind of missed the DIY version because the DIY version was so radical. We shooting like, I mean, it looked like fire extinguishers or like, I don't know, like it was, whatever it was, it didn't look like normal special effects at a concert. It all just seemed completely out of control, broken stuff. And it was wild and great to watch. Like it might be bad for you. Yeah, it felt like that. It was certainly bad for you. Yeah, exactly. It was, it was fun. It didn't feel like it took on a life of its own that it was a pleasant surprise.

1:01:55It was pleasant to see the songs adapt and get a little more muscular and also strange and exciting to see them transform into things people are screaming back at me. It means something to them. Now that was one of the coolest things I've seen, being somewhere you've never been before. I never went anywhere, being Tulsa. Some big dude, you know, I don't know what it means to him, but it authentically touched an herb there, you know, just like music has done for me my whole life. Anyway, with the, what wound up being during the course of pretty eight machine touring, almost two years of circling the country and the world a couple times, it felt like we'd bludgeoned it into people.

1:02:51We'd found an audience by presenting it to people in a way that could make its own case. It didn't rely on a marketing of the record label, you know. And I'd hoped at the time that not to rub it in their face, but just like, look, it did work. Can we move on, but it turned out to be the opposite of that, you know, oh, it did work. Now we can, let's put a zero at the end of that next time. Now let's start talking about who your new producer is, you know, that's when you came into my life. And well, you were in my life, but that's when it was time to, I can't risk trying to keep this from fucking up again, you know, going through that process, but anyway, it resolved itself.

1:03:39But I think the lesson, the main lessons learned from that whole, my whole career was just standing up for what you have to say and expressing yourself in a way that feels authentic. And, you know, I can say completely these days, you know, if you like what we did, what I've done, it's what I want it to be. You know, the best thing it could be in the various incarnations and whims I've been on, you know, it's never felt compromised by anyone's hand or than my own taste at the time. I worked with a couple of people who will remain nameless. And I'm sure you have two that say, I'm glad we did this record.

1:04:25I finally have something I feel proud of. Are you not proud of? You know what I mean? Like, not to say like an household, but I've never put out something I didn't think was the best thing I could do. Why would I think it's worth wasting anyone's time or investing anyone's time on that? So how did the second album differ from the first album experience based on the experience, based on the success, what changed? Yeah, lots changed. And, you know, toward forever on first record, towards the end of that tour, it was bittersweet because it felt like the battle that's raging on the record label front could be a terminal one, you know, I made a stance that I'm not going to record another record for TVT.

1:05:17I'm just not going to do it. And it wasn't out of greed. It was just, it felt they were activated now and excited about now we're really going to get successful. So I couldn't have a partner that I felt was actively trying to do the opposite of what I'm trying to do. And integrity mattered a lot in that era and where things showed up and how it was shoved down your throat mattered, you know, I think it still does, but in a different way, you know, and I didn't want to risk the idea of 90's nails becoming something that was disingenuous because it was shoved out in the world in the wrong way. That makes any sense.

1:06:06And recorded the second thing, the EP, broken, which was really just a reactive help, kind of make the angriest thing I could possibly make, right? And how can I take the aggression that's missing from the first album that was hardest in a live environment, turning into something that's a statement that's concise and just a thing and worked on that with flood again. And we kind of did it without TVT's knowledge. And in the meantime, Jimmy Iving manipulated his way into the situation now, now you're on inner scope. Who's inner scope? Yeah, I was mad. I wanted to be with you. And I was a real asshole to Jimmy initially because I felt like all I want to do is be just leave me alone so I can make me, you know what I mean?

1:06:59Of course. I don't want to be fond of it. We did. I felt like every conversation we had back then, it was almost never about music. It was always just about this situation, this situation. And it really was the bane of your existence. Yeah, it's strange now to even think about it because at the time it was monopolizing, you know, and it felt very omnipresent, a specter over everything, like any minute plug is going to get pulled and it was all a dream. But to Jimmy's credit, much to my surprise, he became a great partner. What do you want? What I'd like to do is deliver you an album with the artwork finalized and you give me some money to make it.

1:07:49That's what I want. Okay, what else you want? And I want, I want a label I could sign some other acts. Okay, what else? I can't think of anything else. Yeah, just for real? Okay. And meanwhile, I had kind of come up with an elaborate plan for a record about a thing with an arc and a kind of storyline to it. And I had a ridiculous kind of flowchard of here's thematically things I'm going to discuss on the album, not songs, the album. Here's where it's going to go, the trajectory of the kind of character, here's musical things I want to touch on, not from stuff I've read. Would you say, would you call it a concept album?

1:08:44Yeah. I mean, I wasn't using that language myself, you know, just think about it. And I thought, I'm going to make this thing and it's going to tell this story loosely and it's going to touch on these themes and it's going to have this and it's going to have that. And here's musical things I want to be influenced by. And okay, now let me start writing all this stuff. And I had a little money to set up to get an actually good quality samplers and some stuff that was inspiring. And I've talked to Flood about working together again and thought, let's set up in a house and do the whole romantic thing, probably from you, you know, let's make it not feel like you're the record player and fucking around, but let's in an environment.

1:09:33And then I'm sitting with that notebook and I'm living in a house with gear in it, Chris ran in the guest house. And ideas feel fertile and there's lots of words coming and there's lots of musical ideas coming and it felt like it's hard to even keep up with what's happening. But what isn't coming is the added pressure, pressure may not be the right word, the added desire to funnel all that into this equation I've written out of. Here's a cool song that feels exciting. Something needs to sit in that second slot where it's more up temp, you know, but the words that are fitting with it aren't it felt like it's trying to serve too many masters and starting to get it's starting to step on unbridled inspiration instinct, you know, because I'm trying to place it in this grid that seemed too complex.

1:10:36So a few months into it, I thought, I don't fuck that whole idea, I'm just going to make songs if it sounded to me. And exciting. And again, it never felt ominous or unfun. It felt like I'm got a new laboratory and it's exciting. And I have this new specter, there's an audience now, you know, and I know you know this feeling well with various artists where first album, no audience, no expectation, you know, other than your own, and maybe your labels. Now more people than I ever thought, no 90s, nails and like 90s, nails, you know, then there's times when it creeps in your mind, what did they like about, you know, am I going to serve another helping of that up or is this too, am I getting away from whatever, you know, this ACDC making a disco album, you know, because they think it's cool, and I mean, it wasn't overwhelming as I remember at the time because I'd just done that broken EP, which was a kind of, it's not pretty even machine, but it's just an EP, you know, there might still be hope.

1:11:48It was incredible. I loved it. It was a new thing that could haunt your light nights, you know, absolutely. Anyway, back to the story, when I, after I'd abandoned the idea of a concept album and then just let things go for a while, a few months later, as I'm kind of looking at what's landing, I realize it all fits into that grid. Yeah, he's almost exactly when you weren't trying to get it in. I wasn't conscious even thinking about it, you know, but I, I think of that master timeline song thing, two things moved and everything sat right where it was supposed to, you know, and then I realized, I'll need one song now, and that kind of works with these lyrics I had over there.

1:12:37That was a weird, interesting thing. I think it's a great epiphany. It's like, oh, it really, it works. Yeah, not forcing. The thing you abandoned because it wasn't working was there all along. That's what I think about sometimes when I, like I said, I've got an older one I mentioned being able to be in subconscious mode, whatever that is. It feels like a real scene change to then say, okay, now I'm not that guy right now. Now I've got to be the guy that has to forensically kind of range and make decisions and I'm leaning into it more of that role that I use. And there are two different aspects of yourself.

1:13:22One is the free creative spirit who's working on instinct and subconscious energy. And the other is the person who comes in after who's more like the professional of like, okay, this part's really good. This is really good. This works with this. And it's a different, it's a whole different head. Yeah. But we have them both, you know, we can do both of us things. Yeah. I think what I used to flip between them. I don't remember it being quite so. Yeah. I wasn't so conscious of the shift. Now it's more of a, I'd rather not shift into that. You know, I'd rather stay and it's this guy for a while. But at that time on, on, down with Spiral, it was it all felt like it came together.

1:14:16You know, and I do remember turning that record into Jimmy with you said, I could do what I want. Sorry, man. And it wasn't to spite anybody. It was just like, this is what I feel like I need to do. And I don't think there's any singles here, you know, but and he's like, well, you've been wrong before. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a, that was a life -changing thing to have that record come out and strangely resonated as much as it did. And I listened to it now. That's a fucking weird sounding album. It still is. It still is. It's great. It's so great. It's so personal and so different than everything else.

1:14:56And it's raw. I appreciate that. I think we skipped the part of the story where you came up with the name of the band. Yeah, there's nothing that spectacular about that, really. That's my, it was, it's pretty unsexy, actually. It's, it really is just kind of grinding on, putting things in a list that come from a non -known place, and looking at them a couple days later, and 90 % of them are terrible. The ones that can last. That one, just the more I looked at, the more it felt like it's nice to say, it looks cool when you write it down, can abbreviate it into something that makes sense. It kind of felt like it, it's ominous, you know, in my opinion.

1:15:51I've heard every permutation of work where it could have come from and religious or sexual or whatever, but it just, it sounded cool as really the, you know, I think I saw NIN T -shirts before I ever heard the music. I feel like they were just, for some reason, that T -shirt really caught people's imagination. And part of that also was a conscious, you know, from growing up with KISS and bands with logos and stuff like the carbon desks and no bubbles in that iconography. It was always exciting to me. I thought the idea of much like stagecraft, you know, I can appreciate the, the Pearl Jam, no bullshit, I get it, but I can also appreciate like, fuck, you know, being fluid.

1:16:40Yeah, an element of it's okay to dabble in these waters, you know, that was always exciting to me to see if one could frame the music in a way that, frame a live performance experience in a way that embellishes. Social network was the first scoring you did, yeah, and how did it come about? The first proper score, yeah, I've got a dream like call from David Lynch when he was doing Lost Highway that resulted in a few days sound design and him visiting the studio in New Orleans and being a huge David Lynch fan, the visit was everything you'd want in a David Lynch experience, you know. And wasn't real scoring, there was just some person he had worked with a long time sound designer had passed away and he was looking for some help on some certain things, but it was interesting to see how he has a creative, how big a role sound plays and how he tells stories.

1:17:42It was interesting to see, from a completely non -technical, you know, point of view, scribble someone on a piece paper. I want to sound like that, yeah, but I was friends with acquaintances with David Fincher and I'd met him through Mark Romantic and a fan of his work and then we started getting calls. David Fincher would like you to score his new movie, but it was coming right at a time where, I got sober in 2001 and prolific life change and aside from something I needed to do to stay alive, countless life lessons, the biggest one being I don't know everything, you know. And it's okay to ask for help and be humbled.

1:18:42And I think the process of sobriety for me was a gun to your head of really assessing your choices in your life and what led you to decisions and your relationships and your bullshit, you know, the way you lie to yourself. And the uncomfortable process of going through that certainly has countless blessings that one can use past that and recognition of just being forced to work out some things that I think people that don't have to go through sobriety miss out on. I'm not saying I'm grateful, I'm an addict or recovering, I'm grateful, I'm in recovery, given the choice to not be an addict, I'd prefer to not be an addict.

1:19:34But there's been a lot of things I've learned that have greatly helped me live a life that I feel good about myself today that came from the desperation of having to that process. I mentioned that because being able to embark on an engaging healthy relationship with somebody where you're completely honest and not bringing into it your own weirdness and bullshit, when did it get really bad for me? How and when did it get really bad for you? I never set out to be an addict. I never romanticized it, it wasn't, I had my first beer when I was 13 and it wasn't that guy, I know. I just felt like when I would be getting to know you, I'm in a place where I don't really know who I am and now I'm being looked at by a bunch of people and a place that feels uncomfortable and I'm already anxious and I'm not sure because I don't have that arm or on because I'm not, I don't have a gene Simmons costume, you know, I'm not, I don't have a story like Perry Farrell, I was a male prostitute and whatever it might have been, right?

1:20:52That was a pretty cool story that I don't have that. I'm a fucking dude from Pennsylvania, you know. I remember when I met Anthony, you know, he seemed like he knew how to be a rock star, you know, I knew how to be himself, you know, I feel like I'm trying to figure out how to how to be human, just be, yeah, not be on fire when I'm in the room, you know, I felt much more in a line with you in the way I felt feel in the world, maybe why I resonate with music so much. So you see what this is leading, I have a beer reduced that by 10%, I don't feel as, you know, the intent was just to find relief from pain and anxiety and the pressure of now you have an audience, you know, all this.

1:21:45Am I interesting and what if they find out I'm not interesting, what if I'm, what if they really see who I am, you know, and that could tie into that not good enough, you know, my own mythologizing in my head, it's connected to where I came from and that's because I was abandoned or whatever the fuck, but it came out in the form of I like myself better with the drink, you know, and then that creeps into where it creeps into, you know, and it took a few years, but, you know, I'll be totally honest with you, there's things I feel ashamed of, you know, that time when David Lynch came, I wasn't at my best, you know, I wasn't me, I was a little fucked up, I wasn't vomiting on people, you know, but I wasn't, I'm ashamed of that, you know, some day I'd like to, he won't remember or care, you know, but I'd like to say, hey, I wasn't my best, a lot of times with you, I feel ashamed that I was in the state I was in, that I wasn't the person I wish you knew, you know, I was kind of, the condition I was in, you know, I've learned that addiction is a disease and all that stuff and I'm not challenging any of that, but I still feel ashamed of some of that shit, you know, my time with Bowie, you know, ultimate artistic hero calls me up to tour with him, fuck yes, I'll have more to tour with you, you know, spending quite a bit of time together and him recognizing and big brothering me and to get your shit together, wow, I was there, wow, you don't have to be there, you know, I'm looking at him, my you fuck man, he's got a beautiful wife, he's happy, he's telling me this was the outside album, so 97 or something like that, hey, I'm got back together with Eno, we recorded a weird album, nobody's gonna want to hear this, I'm gonna go out with a band and only play this stuff, I'm not playing the hits, nobody wants that, but I need to do it and I'm thinking my whole adult life, I've looked at Bowie through the myth making of how you hear about stuff, as a guy fearlessly reinventing himself and in unafraid of throwing away things that aren't broken to fearlessly try new shit and I'm watching him deal it in front of me, we're bigger than Bowie when that tour came up, he asks if we'll play with him, I say the only way we'll play is if we open for him, how do we make that make sense to people who come see us at the amphitheater, you know, let's make a show that starts with that, I said I'll give up my ending if you give up your entrance and let's make it one show that goes from us to you and let's make it make sense and we'll only use white light and when you guys come out it'll feel you know and it was cool, it was a cool show anyway I digress on that though, he was, he was real inspiration, I'm seeing somebody that feels like they came out of something and they're on the other side and their life is good, you know, he genuinely was in a place where he's happy, he feels like we're gonna play these shows and people are not gonna like what we're doing but that's what that's what this is, I know, I need to do it, I need to get this out and I would I have the balls to do that?

1:25:35I don't know, you know, I've gone and played tours where I'm playing songs, I kind of I'm tired of playing but I know there's an expectation and that is that compromising or is that? Actually I want to share this with you and this can either be in or out, if you want, but I do want to share this because it's interesting, I saw you play at the forum and I want to say it was probably 14, 15 years ago, something like that and the show opened, now keeping in mind, 30 years ago when I saw you, my favorite band, it was the original version of Nine Inch Nails and this show that I saw 14 or so years ago opened with the original version of Nine Inch Nails, that's how the show started and then it changed into different versions of modern production, all of which were incredible, it was part where you were standing by yourself in front of a giant screen, there was a part where the instruments changed to electronic instruments and at the end of the show I remember thinking and again, biggest fan, my favorite stuff was the early stuff, I felt like the show would have been better had that not been there, even though that was my favorite thing about the band, the older stuff, the old stuff, it's like it didn't make the show better, it felt more like it felt like an obligation, and I've actually been wanting to tell you since that night, you have no obligation, you're free.

1:27:17No, I appreciate that and you know it's one of those things that if we're on the topic of how one presents the band when there is a catalog in a large amount of stuff, I will admit I am torn sometimes about wanting to, I thought about this on the way here, usually when there's a scenario of a tour coming up, there's a discussion about what kind of venues, what kind of size, what kind of thing, you know, and in that discussion money is part of that, you know, finances and logistics, and I think as a result of tuning into our audience, which I had done over the years, I'm consciously trying to do much less of, you know, I was fascinated with when the internet changed interaction between fan and audience, they saw a lot more of you, but you could see a lot more of what their feedback, what they're interested in, what they're not interested in, not from how can I tailor music to fit what you know, marvel fandom, not that, but it was interesting at times to see if we play a show at the forum, there's a lot of people pissed off because the experience isn't that great because it's the forum and it sounds like shit and it's impersonal and you've had that experience as I have, it's not as good as that club, if you play the club, you know, the other side of it, you get in, I get in, they don't get in and they're pissed off because they can't get in and now it's scalpers and there's a whole other world of fucking problems.

1:29:00If you play 30 shows at the club, then it's, you're playing the show and you can see the same people in the audience every night and that starts to feel like, what are we doing right now, you know? And it somehow, it's kind of a boring conversation, it's kind of, somehow zeroes out at, I tend to feel like if we're going to play a show, I want that show to feel authentic and feel real, but I also want it to not feel like a self -indulgent, we know you want this, we're not going to give you that, we're only doing, because I've been to many of those shows too where it kind of not in the mood to hear another 20 -minute solo off the new album that nobody really likes, you know, Rolling Stones, I don't want to hear the whole new album, sorry, you know what I mean?

1:29:51But I'm not saying it's, I get your point completely. I think the other part of it that I would consider is, is there a way to never go through the motions of doing the song the way it was on the record, because that's the way you did it, and thinking more in terms of, okay, these are the songs I want to play, these are the songs that I want to play, these, this is a group of songs that I think everyone wants to hear. I want to play the way to play these, where it's interesting to me, how can I reinvent the song to be true to who I am today, what does that sound like? And if you do that for a period of time, there'll be a time when maybe 10 years from now, you feel like, well, be really fun to do it the old way, like, like, it would be new to do it the old way at some point in time.

1:30:41Yeah. If you give yourself a break from doing it the old way, and you might really enjoy, like, finding a new way in, it's a great experience. I mean, it happened unintentionally with her. And I was going to say another, another version where that happened, which is interesting to me. I remember going to the Bowie Show, and you, you had asked me to do a remix of one of the songs on Downward Spiral, which I did, and it was, you know, a very contentious version. I would say, I was great. But it was definitely colored outside the lawns, outside the lawns, on purpose, because I felt like this is my favorite song on the album, anything I do to it's going to ruin it.

1:31:23So I'm going to lean into that and just do something, make something else, because it's already, the thing that it is is the thing that it is. Anything I do is not going to be better. So it's okay. So I'll be really free. And then when I came to the Bowie Show, you played my version live, and it blew my mind. I was completely unprepared. And it was the opposite of people love that song on the album. They, the audience wanted the real version. And you gave them the ruined version. And it was fun. It really was. No, I could really made me happy. So I think you asked me David Fincher social network.

1:32:09Yeah. Anyway, I had just, I was getting married, and I just finished a long tour, and I felt like I just promised myself I'm going to take some time and not fill the day with the next thing. You know, not rush into the next thing, which I tend to do all the time. And then the phone's ringing with Fincher saying, do you want to score this film? And he sent me the script, and I read it, and the script was great. And I just, this new adult version of me said, I've got to live up to the promise I just made to myself. When I said the David look, it's not you, it's not the film, it's not the material.

1:32:57It's just to do this right, I have to immerse myself in it. I don't know how to do this. And I don't feel like I'm in a place right now, or I can give it my best. And if I do, I'm not being honest with what I just said I would do for myself. Please respect it. And then it's not you. I totally get it. I totally get it. And then what happened? I get sleep for a couple days, and I can't quit thinking about that, of course, because I feel like I've let him down, and I feel like I've copped out. You know, in a few weeks went by it, and then I called him up and said, hey, one more time, I just want to reiterate.

1:33:39It wasn't you. And it wasn't the material. I just really didn't feel like I was able to pull this off. And I said, if it ever comes up again for the next film, please, give me a mic. It's no, I'm still fucking waiting for you to do this film. When can you come over? And then we started. The rest of the history. What was the experience like? I mean, first of all, just from a technical perspective, does he say these are the scenes I want music? This is where the cue goes, or do you watch the movie and decide where the music goes? With venture. And I didn't realize it's this at the time, until I was around other composers a few months later in award season craziness.

1:34:29I never never crossed my mind. It was even a thing. But with venture, it's really instilled the greatest collaborator one could have in that area because he's carved out of space where he's fought to make sure that this camp of people that are making the film are not answering to producers or studios or any interest other than his, which is, let's make the very best thing we can. And the team he's assembled with his editors and sound guys. And they are great. And when you around them, you feel like, wow, I got to keep up. Not in an intimidating way. And everyone's riffing off each other and you're watching this thing and getting better and better.

1:35:19Yeah. And certainly there was a feeling of, I don't want to be the one that fucks the movie up because I don't want him doing it. But what David will do, he started that process off saying, I'm thinking that it might feel a little electronic maybe. And very, very few little bread drums. And what had happened before what led to him asking Atticus and I work on this was, I made a record under Nine in St. Louis called Ghosts, which was just an experiment, which was, I enjoy arranging music at times and trying to evoke emotional reactions. But the only time I get to do it is supporting a song and trying to arrange it in a way that sounds interesting.

1:36:17So I came up with an idea. I had Alan Mulder over and I said, let's just do this every day. Let's make a new piece of music and whatever it is at the end of the day, we're done. This is an E -no -esque type of thing. Let's start with other photo or a feeling or a phrase and let's just make it that. And so here's a picture of the end of a pier in a swamp in New Orleans and it's dusk and it feels Tom Waitzee and just feels kind of hot and humid and slightly sensual and almost menacing. What's that sound like? Not sound effects, but what would feel right? We need to score that idea. Say a movie like David Cronenberg's Dead Ringers fills me with dread.

1:37:09I think it's a great film of just feeling like something bad is going to happen. Nothing good is going to come on us. That feeling of dread make a song for that. And it was just a fun thing that felt like no pressure. I felt the opposite of writing songs where it's just experimental and it was a chance to try different canvases and play around in different areas that I wouldn't probably get to in managed nails normal songwriting mode. And put that out as an instrumental double album. That caught Fincher's ear and he had tempt in some of that for social network. And because I said why are you bugging me to do that?

1:37:54Yeah. He's like because you had the language of being able to emotionally enhance the story I'm trying to tell. I'm not saying make it sound like that record. But I can tell from these experiments that's the textures in the emotional resonance I'm looking for. Then I'm faced with that dilemma I mentioned earlier of how do you score thing with talking? And once I kind of realized we tried this strategy. Rather than call up Hans Zimmer and ask him how he start. We thought we had a little time and we spent two weeks or so. Let's think about this film. We've seen a rough cut of half of it. We have the script.

1:38:43We've talked to Fincher about what story he's trying to tell. The feeling he's trying to convey. He's not trying to make it feel like a comfortable college shenanigans story. It's meant to feel more important than that. Stakes, emotional stakes and gravitas is meant to feel a bit more weighty. And then just started day dreaming and improvising and wrote about eight or nine, ten maybe five minute pieces of music that evolved. Here's a theme that kind of goes from mild and benign to feeling like clouds are creeping in to something whatever it might be. All of them had a kind of feel like you could put it on and listen to it and it felt pleasant and it didn't feel like a loop.

1:39:35But it was essentially exploring different tonal variations of different musical things. And I sent that to him and I said just see if this isn't first seen, this isn't for this part, this isn't the whatever. But this feels like what I hear your movie as the world of it. And it's also testing him to see instrumentally, musically, tonally are these things resonating. Some were more synthetic, some more more organic sounding. Just to see where he's incredibly smart. He can pretty much any aspect of making a film. He can tell you more about the lens of the camera than the cinematographer, the fucking, you know, with music, it's more of a shapes and it's not real specific in a good way.

1:40:30Anyway, we heard back almost immediately like, listen, I'm going to try cutting some of this into a film. And in a couple days, do you want to come see a quick cut of it? It's going to have your music in it though. Sure. So we walk into some theater somewhere where I'm sitting right behind Brad Pitt watching a rough cut of this film with the music we just wrote kind of tried in different spots. And it was an almost religious experience to hear. I know it's obvious, to be in the control seat for a minute and to hear something you did see how much it affects the way of something plays and the way you feel watching it.

1:41:14I was hooked, you know, just with the making me aware of the emotional power of music and in the role of a film where you're experiencing a thing, to know how much you can control one response to that thing and how varied it can be by what goes in there was just exciting to see. And from that point on, that it became much more traditional. Now we know this kind of thing works and that kind of part of the film. Now let's get in and really start doing it. Once we had the breadcrumbs started to take root and seed. The more often you do it, do you feel like you always get better at doing it? Generally yes, but what it's become, you know, we did that film, the process of doing it, the pressure of being in a foreign situation with people who are great.

1:42:12And you like them as people and you want to keep up and then realize and you are keeping up and you're inspiring them and seeing it all come together on a film that is really good. And also watching the film, Fincher has an uncanny way of, okay, he's somehow managed to zone in on taking three frames out of that and tightening this one thing up and he's seen it how many hundreds of times and helped write it and filmed it and picked between 100 takes of that thing and composited this but still remains objective enough to incrementally nudge it forward to where undeniably it is getting better and as he's dealing with you on this one scene, he's also dealing with the other 100 things around it and it's pretty impressive.

1:43:07Anyway, we finished that film and then weirdly it starts to get accolades and then people are saying you might get nominated for an Oscar and it's not possible. It's just like if you decide to run a race and you just want, you know, how it can't be possible. It must be a flu. It felt good through that whole process but I think as you endlessly had to promote film and being round tables with other composers that you know but know of but don't know and you're hearing how fortunate the untypical the Fincher situation is, it's really reframed kind of the experience we had. It was great. What it's become since then as we've had time to kind of think about do we want to keep doing this or what are we getting from?

1:44:02Are we trying to become a factory and just as many films or what it comes down to is I really enjoy weirdly working in service to something. Yeah, it's like also each one of them is a puzzle to solve. So it's like exactly that. Yeah, it's like cracking a code. It feels good to crack the code whatever it is for whatever it is. And what I think about now when it's choosing projects is it's all about the person you're going to be stuck in a room with, you know, trying to figure it out. And if you know them it's one thing and the last few we've done where all people we hadn't ever met before. And they've largely been good experiences but it's interesting to kind psychologically understand, okay, the code is that director.

1:44:53Yeah, trying to tell a story, I am a tool that can help shape it in a tremendous way but trying to get past, understand what they're trying to say and then trying to do good work inside the confines and I find it I wouldn't want to do it only do that. And if I do too much of a row, I find not really want to do something else. So different is the process from from songwriting and how different is it when it's in service to something else and not you. To me the hardest thing is the songwriting. Having something to say, having something to say with truth that has that thing has that reason to exist rather than just a thing, just to just exercise.

1:45:57Having to think about the multiple layers of, for a Max Martin or a songwriter, I don't know how that works and I appreciate the craftmanship of it. Like I've got five kids now. Five. Yeah. Unbelievable. And it's the best thing that's ever happened to me. And I know it's a thing to say but it's radically shaped every bit of who I am and why I do anything. And reason I mention that is for a while I've kept them in kind of hermetically sealed away from pop music and because I think it sucks general I have thought that for whatever reason. And I realized about a year ago that's not fair and they're not away from it.

1:46:48They're just I'm just not playing it breakfast in the car. I don't have on radio stations. And I heard my daughter who's six singing Do a Leapah the other day. She's so into it. It was so cool. This is her music. This is her thing. And I've kind of turned on and immersed myself in just what's happening and out in culture now. I know. And there's no reason to bring all this up other than it really reminded me that the art of writing a well crafted song when it I teared up listening to Do a Leapah track the other day because it was just a really well done piece of music. You know, it's clever. It felt good.

1:47:40If I was in the demographic. It is hard to do. You know, it's difficult thing. Yeah. And this is all got on this. I don't know how to do that. Because I'm when I'm trying to think of what to say or how to say it. I'm saying it from the unvarnished me. And that requires me thinking about who I am and where my position is now. And all of that together becomes something that feels stakes are higher. Yeah. It hasn't gotten easier over the course of your life. Well, it's gotten easier in sobriety is not starting with this has to be the best song in the world or that ridiculous. You know, hey, this might suck, but I'm going to do it today.

1:48:26You know, that I can have fun with now. But the feeling of in the back of my mind, there is a if this is ever meant to be out in the world before I start writing the novel, I might want to think about what what do I think it's about? You know, what what might happen in it rather than just what comes out sitting down musically arranging stuff can come from a I know what's right. You know, I don't have to yeah, assess my thoughts on how I feel about a thing that's who I who am I now? Is that who? You know what I mean? Like I've changed to my perspective in the world has changed who often and I have to think of this when I'm writing.

1:49:09Am I being honest with who I am now or am I in my in the archetypal? Yeah, the character I was. I thought I was. Yeah. You know, not in a tripling way, but just in a it feels more difficult process. Do you only write for a particular project? So let's say I'm going to make it I'm going to start a new album so I'm going to start writing for that or are you always writing? When film stuff kicked in kind of coincided with being married and then starting a family and I realized my I can never just sit around and be I feel like I've got stuff. I feel better if I've got some things, you know, they don't have to be big things, but just something if I had a day off with nothing to do and kids are at school or something, I'd probably find myself now I can learn how that drum machine works that I was interested in.

1:50:15Yeah. I know that would be a fun thing to fill my brain with. But what it wouldn't be is what someone healthy would do to relax. Whatever that is. I'm not saying I wouldn't go for a walk but I feel like I need some something to feel like I'm getting stuff figured out. And when film stuff kind of came into the equation, it was a chance to do a lot of composition that felt interesting and informative and educational and rewarding, feeling like you're doing what you're kind of felt nice not thinking about that. There's always a list of, as a parent, I find there's a never ending well if I choose to look in there of what aren't I doing that I could be doing, should be doing right now.

1:51:13I know how could I be more present with five of them? There's always someone has an urgent need or I can imagine there is one. You know, could I be a better parent the answer always is yes, I can be, you know, could I spend a little more time?

1:51:33And I haven't been beat myself up really about particularly with the pandemic kicked in, you know, I thought great this will be the time I can really write that opera, you know. What I found instead was I don't really want to do anything right now. I kind of want to feel okay and I want to make sure my family is okay and it's great. That's okay. Absolutely. You know, that was a revelation though because I, anyway, I'm in a point right now where I'm working on some things that art music and art, art scoring films that around storytelling just to see if I can do it. You know, one of the last times I saw you before this, I also remember feeling intense shame that I'll share with you was with Larry Jackson for an Apple thing that was going on.

1:52:29Yeah, I don't remember that. Did your old house burn? My old house, so I was at that house. We stopped buying for a minute. Well, I was working in Apple. Are you not working at Apple anymore? No, no, no, just briefly. Several years ago, one of the things I've daydreaming about interested in how people listen to music and consume music, you know, because I think it's important because I care about music. And Spotify was just starting out. Streaming was coming, you know, torrenting and stealing music was declining. Record shops are dead. The industry feels kind of dead. An exciting as a consumer, it felt like if streaming becomes the new thing, wouldn't it be great if two things happened?

1:53:25One, the experience as a consumer could be one that's like going to an independent record shop where how many times have you done this? I walked in with no real agenda and I left with my arms hurting because the bag's so heavy of shit, I didn't, wow, I can't wait to listen to this stuff, you know. I didn't feel that that Spotify's home page. I felt like I was at the mall walking past the same shit that I would see the billboards of down to go down the sunset boulevard, you know. When I stumbled into all music guide and suddenly, I didn't realize that guy produced this record and he also played bass on that.

1:54:11And now I've 20 layers deep into an exciting tangent of connections I didn't even know. Or I forgot about that, you know, I want to hear that right now. Wouldn't that be cool if that could all happen in a place that's tailored to you that, you know, that was thing number one. Thing number two, a pipe dream, wouldn't it be nice if musicians could get paid for making music? Instead of it being a lost leader to get you to buy a fucking toaster at Best Buy or you know, that line in the contract, future technologies that will make sure we'll figure out how to not pay you on, you know, streaming of which has become that in my opinion.

1:54:56So came up with an idea that at the same time Jimmy was trying to make the streaming service within the Beats ecosystem, it was a fun project to kind of work on for a year or so. Just see if I could even pull it off, see what working that climate was like. Surprise Apple wants to buy it. And now can you work an Apple to help them launch their thing with those two points you just mentioned? I could try, I know, I've never done that before. Let me see. And finding myself immersed in that corporate culture at the highest level, where it's me versus the engineering team about fighting for things that matter with the goal being an experience that feels that elevates music into the experience I described.

1:55:49What it deserves. What it deserves. It's not auto parts that need to be fulfilled. It's fucking art, you know, treated as such, you know, give it a little reverence, you know. Things like, why can't I not see the inside record sleeve of any album in 2023? We've gone back in time. Could you not have someone scan that shit? Can you not treat it like it's you know, as a small aspect of one of the many things missing from the experience, you know, treat the shit with reverence, you know. And I spent four years in various degrees of witnessing just it was educational. It was interesting. It wasn't music.

1:56:34I wasn't being an artist. I was voicing an opinion of artists in a corporate environment. I think I've made some inroads, but ultimately realized that, you know, if I wanted to make an impact, I had to move there in full time, become that thing. And nothing made me want to make music more than even thinking that. And I felt terrible in the midst of that feeling. For some reason, we had to come out and talk to you about something about music and Larry was there and we were talking. And the whole time, I just felt like, I can't even remember it. Before I was drunk, now I made a fucking corporation.

1:57:15I'm not an artist. That's how my brain works. I've never seen you in any light other than the most. diligent and caring artists. I will try to listen to that with my whole heart. It's true. It's the truth. Anyway, never question it. Well, I appreciate that. I'm trying something that's weirdly enough when I tapped out of Apple. Six months later, there was something I missed about the foreignness of it, the challenge. It's another riddle to figure out. Yeah, no, great. So anyway, I'm working on some things that's intentionally cryptic that might scratch that edge, but be closer to the artistic world than supply chains and patiently await.

1:58:12How do you say your relationship to music has changed since starting to make it to now? From far back, as I can remember, music was the thing I could relate to. And as I could play it or perform it, it allowed me to vocabulary to understand how I feel about things and feel okay, either as just being a person to understand how I feel or as someone that can actually create something that has beauty or allows me to get it out. The role music played in my life as just to help me understand listening to music as a fan of music was defined who I was in every respect. Being able to get into the game, make music and get it out to people.

1:59:05Every dream I've ever had fulfilled beyond whatever thought. It didn't start with how can I get famous or rich doing this. If I could just get on that stage and know what that feels like, and feel what it feels like, and it feels fucking great is what it feels like. And sometimes it feels like it's a bit of a mess. I don't want to be away from my kids. Not that much. I don't want to miss their lives out to go do a thing that I am grateful to be able to do and I'm appreciative that you're here to see it, but I've done it a lot. I think where it is for me personally right now in the context of Nine -inch -Nales in terms of an audience and the culture where it is and the importance of music or lack of importance of music in today's world from my perspective.

2:00:13It is a little defeating. I think it feels to me in general. And I'm saying this is a 57 -year -old man. Music used to be the thing. That was what I was doing. When I had time, I was listening to music. I wasn't doing it in the background while I was doing five other things. And I wasn't treating it kind of as a disposable commodity. It was the thing that you... I don't go into the cinema and do my taxes while movies playing. I'm there to watch a movie. I kind of miss the attention music got. I miss the critical attention music got. Not that I'm not interested in a critics opinion, but to send something out in the world and feel like it touched places.

2:01:05Might have got a negative or positive, but somebody heard it. It got validated in its own way culturally. That feels askew. I can't think of any review I care about today. That I even trust. I could write it before it comes out because it's already written. It's a fact chat GPT could probably do a better job. Or is currently... I don't know where to be doing it. That makes for what I feel is a less fertile environment to put music out into. Completely understood. In the world of nine -inch nails. Yeah. Completely understood. I think that's where some of the excitement of composition and film has allowed.

2:01:46It's thrust me into places I wouldn't be with my band. It's made me learn and be in awe of what music is and how powerful it is and how much there is to know about it and how much I don't know about it. I mean in awe of seeing these different ways it can affect you emotionally. And techniques and sound and soundscapes and things I don't think I would have come across on the typical trajectory of being a band. Reminders of what a fucking amazing form of art. You know that I think naturally is just like everything in life. Taking a minute to appreciate I'm alive. You know what I mean? Things could be much worse.

2:02:34I've got many many things to be grateful for. Don't get hung up on this unimportant thing. You know when I'm not sure of that connectedness. But with music I've gone through phases of feeling kind of stale. I'm not thinking about it that much. It's just taking us to the thing. I understand. It's the way it seems like at the time that you entered music there was you talked about the double album that's seen the the Zappa double album. Yeah. You know and wanting to have that and wanting to like understand what was going on there. Yeah. And we're looking forward to investing time in that experience.

2:03:16And now just the nature I think it's the nature of streaming and it's there's good and bad to it. It's not all bad. Yeah. It's good also. But it has changed that from the album that from your favorite group that you've been waiting for that you listen to for months or years becomes a thing that comes out and you listen to it for a week or two. And then the conveyor belt's always going by with something else and it just moves on. So nothing seems to have the same gravitas of any you know the whoever today's biggest act in the world is I don't know who it is. But it doesn't seem to have the fact that I don't know who it is tells you.

2:03:59Yeah. It doesn't seem to be in the culture in the same way. But that same thing has happened with like I've mentioned this story before. I don't think I've mentioned to you. But when the God when the Godfather came out everyone you knew saw the Godfather and it won the Academy Award for the best movie. And it was an event or when Sergeant Pepper came out everyone bought Sergeant Pepper and everyone you knew heard Sergeant Pepper and you'd hear it on the radio. Today the Academy Awards they're they're now 10 and set of five movies up for best picture chances are you and nobody you know has seen any of those 10 movies.

2:04:35None. Yeah. Not one. Yeah. So it's not just music. It's like it's just the way the culture has evolved where nothing seems to have that capture the imagination. I agree with you. I think some of that is the lack of monoculture things channels MTV. You know a place where lots of people tuned into the thing. I think part of it is to do with you know to go really old school when you when you bought an album it existed somewhere you see it you encounter it's on your shelf. You know the when everything is now in the cloud and it's all available. And you didn't invest in it. I don't even mean money but even time or it's not in a it doesn't have a place in your house it's just a thing.

2:05:24It becomes less tangible right and it becomes easier to forget. I miss the days like I find myself in a place now where I'm not I don't have a good place to discover new music. I used to know when the release date of all the things were I used to steal stuff from the torrent site because that's I wanted to hear it and it wasn't to save money. I was just I just want to hear the thing I'm excited. I was going to find now I don't even I often don't know it even came out you know kind of like being in that place but it kind of feels like well everything's sped up and it's just different. It's hard not to talk about this kind of thing and start to realize oh I'm becoming the guy that I'm older my perspective is also different.

2:06:14I part of it's growing up but as much of it has to do with the the way technology has changed the way the culture works. It's just changed it and the on the good side is if you do go to all music guide and you want to go down that rabbit hole now you don't have to go hunting for all of those things you can just press a button and hear every one of them and you can I like the idea that if I if something pops into my head that I can hear literally anything and I love that experience it was going to tell you shazam story I love shazam because it's just a great it's great to be able to to find out what when something's playing and I almost never shazam anything on television and I was watching a documentary a couple of years ago and the end of it music came on it was really loud and it was really good and I never even pay attention music on television but it was good enough it's like I had a shazam whatever this is after shazam it and it made sense it's like oh you made it turned out it was something you made it was maybe citizen 4 could it have been that yeah yeah it was like it was good enough to make me want a shazam it from a television show that's great to hear no thank you so much for rolling down here today oh man really my pleasure yeah