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Podcast Notes: Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Episode: Tyler Cowen: From Avant-Garde to Pop (Bonus DJ Episode)
Overview In this bonus episode of *Tetragrammaton*, Rick Rubin engages in a mesmerizing dialogue with Tyler Cowen, who shares his deep passion for music. The conversation traverses various musical genres, from avant-garde classical music to contemporary pop, revealing Cowen's lifelong obsession with music and its profound impact on his intellectual life.
Key Themes and Concepts
Passion for Music
- Lifelong Engagement: Cowen has been engaged with music since the age of seven and continues to explore it passionately at 61.
- Addiction to Music: Cowen describes his affinity for music as an "all-consuming addiction" that is beneficial to his life, providing insights into history, economics, and cultures across over a hundred countries visited.
Discussion of Composers and Pieces
- Beethoven's Bagatelles: Cowen introduces Beethoven’s less-known pieces, emphasizing their profundity despite their simplicity and the unique interpretations by pianist Vassily Richter.
- Fela Kuti: Kuti is highlighted as a revolutionary figure in Nigerian music, blending funk, rock, and political commentary. Cowen discusses Kuti's influence and his connections to earlier African music traditions.
- Stravinsky and Avant-Garde: Cowen argues the significance of avant-garde composers like Stravinsky and Schoenberg as pioneers whose innovations shaped popular music.
Musical Influences and Styles
- Evolution of Music: Cowen articulates how classical music functions as a "research and development laboratory" for popular music.
- Cross-Pollination: The intertextual connections between genres, such as the influence of African rhythms on Stravinsky's work, are examined.
Personal Musical Experiences
- Live Performances: Cowen shares personal anecdotes about attending concerts and festivals, emphasizing the impact of experiencing music live.
- Cultural Understanding: Conversations about understanding the lyrics versus emotional responses to the music highlight the diverse ways music resonates with individuals.
Musical Segments Discussed
- Beethoven's Bagatelles: Cowen discusses the profound nature of these small pieces and their place in Beethoven's oeuvre.
- Fela Kuti's Influence: The discussion moves from Kuti to other avant-garde influences in music, demonstrating a lineage from earlier traditions to modern sounds.
- Stravinsky's Work: The episode features analytical interpretations of Stravinsky's pieces and their connections to both classical and popular music.
Notable Compositions and Artists
- Stravinsky's "Le Noce": Described as brutal and impactful, showcasing Stravinsky's rhythmic innovations.
- Morton Feldman's Music: Feldman's work is highlighted for its meditative qualities and influence on contemporary music.
- James Brown: Brown’s unique approach and energy in performance are reminisced upon, with Cowen discussing the revolutionary aspects of his music.
Conclusion
The episode culminates in an exploration of contemporary music with a focus on artists like Lana Del Rey, reflecting on how current compositions carry forward the traditions and innovations of past masters. Cowen and Rubin engage in a thoughtful dialogue about the emotional and intellectual power of music, leaving listeners with a deeper appreciation for the art form.
Key Takeaways
- Music is a profound addiction that can enrich intellectual life.
- Avant-garde music serves as a foundation for popular genres.
- Personal experiences shape the understanding and appreciation of music.
- The interplay between different musical traditions fosters innovation and creativity.
This episode serves as a rich tapestry of musical exploration, reflecting both Cowen's passion and Rubin's insightful commentary.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:02Tecco Gramminton!
0:25One of your passions is music enough so that you organize your life to travel the world to listen to it. Is that correct? Music has dominated my life. I listen to it every day. I try to consume it as veraciously as possible and just learn what's new out and just keep on taking it in. And at age 61 years I've been doing this since I was seven. Would you say your enthusiasm for music has diminished over the course of your life? Oh I think it's intensified. The more music you know, the more music you become curious about, right? And the more people you know who can recommend more good things to you.
1:05So it's an all -consuming addiction. I don't think I have to tell you that, yes? Yes, I'm addicted. And unlike most addictions, I think it's actually good for you. So you can learn history. You also can learn economics. You learn about the world. I've been to over a hundred countries often in quest of different music. And I love also reading books about music composers, classic rock and so on. Great. What are you going to play for us today? I thought we would start with something very classic. We'll get to some more popular music. But for me, the most universal of all composers is Beethoven. It's a lot of very famous Beethoven pieces.
1:42So I thought I would pick one that hardly anyone listens to. And he wrote these small pieces called baguattels. There's three groups of baguattels. This is the latest group, Opus 126. And Beethoven thought those were the best. And he called them in a cycle of Kleiningkite, which means small things in German. So whenever Beethoven is downplaying something, you actually ought to suspect it's quite profound. And for me, the perfect mix of Beethoven's profundity and humor together. So that's the piece. This comes from 1825, but also important is the pianist. And the pianist. Here we go.
5:30Are there rules to a baguattel? They're just from his imagination. That to me is the whole Beethoven universe in miniature. The storminess, the passion, that the universality, the positive vision, the embracing of mankind, the humor, the starting and restarting, but doing it different ways. And it's, I think, our most universal pianist playing that piece. And that's Vatislav Richter from the Soviet Union. And he was the one pianist who could play everything wonderfully. But it would all sound different. So it could be Chopin or Scriabin or it could be Schubert or Beethoven. He has a dreamy, wonderful Bach.
6:09And in a so often he sounds so nervous. It's always on edge. He doesn't quite ever let you relax. But he brings in the voice of the composer as well. And he was quite an eccentric. He grew to hate giving concerts. He hated flying across the Atlantic. He stopped visiting the United States. And he would love to just have a sudden announcement of a concert. It might be in a dark room on short notice. He didn't necessarily care if he was paid. And he would play where he wanted to play. He passed away, I think, in 1997. But he's one of the pianists you can go to. And he's just always interesting. Like Lynn Gould can be amazing, but can be terrible.
6:49Richter is always interesting, quite consistent. Great. What were you thinking or feeling when you heard that? I loved it. I was more interested in the form of the piece. And I don't know the rules of Baguettele. I don't know if they they always have dynamics. So they always from loud to quiet and back out again. Or can they be anything? I think he picked that form to be liberated from all strictures. So keep in mind how heavily influenced he is by Hayden. And Hayden typically things have forms. And you're supposed to follow the form. And Beethoven's piano sonatas are like that. Symphony start off being like that.
7:25They break out of the forms. And this is just like a fantasy. You know, do what you want. Blank canvas. Beautiful. Now I thought we would next go to Fela Coutie and then go back to some avant -garde precursors and see some of the connections. The people will relate to Coutie on a podcast and a way that they won't. If I just start with Stravinsky. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Tell me about Fela Coutie. Fela Coutie was from Nigeria. He was a remarkably productive and creative musician. He pioneered a brand of funk and rock and roll and percussive music in Legos. There's still a club in Legos owned by his family.
8:11His son, Famacuti, is also a very well -known musician. You can go there and hear Famacuti play in many evenings. It's a fantastic thing to do. But Fela Coutie is the supreme Nigerian creator. When Paul McCartney was in Legos to record band on the run, of course he went to hear Fela Coutie. And it's percussive music and it's polyrhythmic and it's originally West African ideas, but turned into popular music. Did he have a role in politics as well? He was so famous in Nigeria that everything he said mattered. It's believed he died of HIV AIDS and he was extremely significant in politics. He had a large number of wives and children.
8:55He had a very particular kind of lifestyle and was just extraordinarily dynamic in everything he did. And he made dozens and dozens of albums. Some at the time put out on cassettes. He was a key figure in cassette culture in Africa at that time. And maybe the biggest two -way influences between Fela Coutie and James Brown. Do we know what came before Hela Coutie? There's plenty of African popular music, say in the 1950s or even earlier, that draws upon Cuban rhythms. African families are starting to get radios, starting to be able to listen to music. There are many more dance clubs. And all of these styles were played in the dance clubs and dance halls of the time and then on radio.
9:40But they weren't celebrity in the way that Fela Coutie would become. So he observed rock and roll and James Brown and he picked up on those earlier traditions and turned them into a rock star persona. And I would say made them better, amplified them. Would you say that his music sounded different than the music that came before it? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, there's no one like Fela Coutie. The closest would be his son, Fema, and Fema, of course, is coming afterward. Great to listen to him. Original sufferhead is one album if you want to hear all the way through. But let's see what cut we have.
11:25Very much a dance music, of course. Beautiful. Reminds me a little bit of Tito Puente in the way that it feels. Yeah, big Latin and Cuban cross -pollination. And James Brown's is called Sweat, the very clear connection. There's been a Broadway show called Fela, which is actually quite good. And it tours around different places. Great. You know, one of my themes in music that I find the most interesting is how popular music is rooted in classical music soft on guard. So think of classical music as a kind of research and development laboratory for popular music. Susonic youth comes out of Glen Branka, the Beatles drawing on cage and stock house and among others.
12:07And that if you know, avant -garde classical music to me, so much popular music makes more sense, especially the weird parts of it. So to study avant -garde classical music, for me, there's three places to start. Well, only here one of them, but they would be Scherneberg, Weber and Stravinsky. And it's worth listening to almost everything those three people did. Stravinsky is the one that works best on podcast. And he's in classical music deciding there's a whole different way to carve up the space of music. And to think more rhythmically and poly rhythmically, he was influenced by African rhythms just as Picasso was influenced by the African visual arts.
12:51And Stravinsky is one of the first rock and rollers you could say. And was this at the same time as Picasso? At the same time as Picasso. So it makes sense. It's almost like a movement of embracing African culture in the arts at that point in time. But of course, there are earlier precursors one being Beethoven. If you listen, listen to Beethoven's Abascianata Sanata, which is very rhythmic. And you hear it through the ears of having just listen to Stravinsky. It just makes a lot more sense. You see Beethoven was in that way also so ahead of his time. Let's listen to both of those. Let's listen to Stravinsky first and then Beethoven.
13:28This is a piece by Stravinsky called Manlachier. I had to pronounce the French, French, but Le Noce, and it's about a wedding, and it's done by her percussion ensemble, and it's directly brutal in your face.
15:32And here's something else from Stravinsky as well, just to paint a broader picture of him. Stravinsky is the composer who may be succeeded in the greatest number of styles. So he has Picasso's rhythmic styles. He has a purely neoclassical style. Later, he was a pioneer of 12 -tone and atonal music. And they're all really good. So what do you want to do with Stravinsky? And then a bit of Beethoven? You tell me, you tell me another good choice of Stravinsky before we get to Beethoven. Or if you'd rather do the Beethoven first, so I follow you. Let's do the Beethoven first. We're now hunting down the Apachionata Sonata, which is Beethoven's Opus 57.
16:16I'm going to play just the very beginning and then go to the third movement. The third movement is where all really explodes and comes together. First, we'll just hear briefly the rumbling at the very beginning, where you can just feel the revolution starting to come. Let's go to that.
17:23So, already get the picture. And in the Stravinsky, there's four pianos used mostly percussively. Beethoven being the pioneer. And now if we go to the third and final movement of Apachionata, the Allegro.
19:09You can see where that's headed. Yeah, what's interesting about that, the Beethoven seems much more narrative -based to me. I feel like the music is telling us a story here, whereas in the Stravinsky, it's not telling us the story, we're in an atmosphere. And in the atmosphere, we get to dictate the story. It puts us in a place, the new place, whereas this feels more narrative to me. I think it is. And a lot of Stravinsky is deconstructing things. Let's try another Stravinsky piece to show his diversity of styles. This is called Petruska, which I, you know, he did two versions of it. The first, I think, is 1911.
19:59And here we have one of my favorite conductors, Pierre Boulez conducting Petruska with the Cleveland Symphony.
21:36You can still hear the percussive elements, but it's more like normal classical music. And is this earlier? He was published in 1911, but he worked on it trying to improve it his whole life, is also what I think is a 1947 version. And although he was Russian, very influenced by Russian folk tales, he ends up in Los Angeles, of all places. How was he received in his time? When Riot of Spring premiered, the legend has it that people through chairs and rioted, that may or may not be overstated. But he became very well -known pretty quickly, and was seen as a giant amongst other composers. I'll play you a short bit of some of his 12 -tone music from very late in his life.
22:20And this will not sound nice to many listeners, but it makes more sense than where you'll listen to it.
23:09So a lot of different styles there. Yeah, I imagine that was very new for people hearing it at the time. And no one really liked that at the time, I'm not sure many people like it today. Was Stravinsky considered the first of the avant -garde classical composers? He and Scherneberg also veberned a bit later, or surfacing it broadly at the same time. So the others are in the German -speaking world Stravinsky from Russia, Soviet Union. And it's striking in how many different fields there's this common set of changes. Would you think the conditions were in the world that brought this music up? That people, first there was a lot of chaos in the world, so we're near the World War I era, though actually before it, but people feel something is brewing.
24:03But then just the intellectual idea that it was possible to reconstruct everything from the ground up, which is not in every way the right idea to have. It's not good for society. But in terms of the arts that led to the remarkable creativity of modernism, that you should try everything, which of course popular music picked up on. But it really comes in music from those individuals, Stravinsky and Scherneberg, most of all, that you shouldn't let anything stop you. You could reimagine any part of it. You didn't necessarily have to have a melody or rhythm or meter the way you had been taught or told you had to have.
24:39And just people saying to themselves like, hey, we can redo this was a remarkable moment in human history. Was it in some ways a punk rock of the day? Absolutely a punk rock of the day. It sounds like that's what you're describing. And more radical when you, if you know this other stuff and you hear punk rock, punk rock, a immediately makes sense, but b, sounds conservative. And it ended up being conservative. If you look at what happened to many of the punk rockers, not in a bad way, but, uh, yeah. It became clear their true identities. And that's another way in which classical avant -garde and popular music fit together.
25:18Like I love the sex pistols. But it's like putting on Hayden for me. It doesn't feel like rebellion. It also seems like a new version of a back to basics, a different kind of a back to basic. That's right. I think the downside of it was that socially people decided that the 19th century classical liberal world order also was going to be overturned. And in many countries they replaced it with something far far worse, fascism, communism, terrible brutal acts. But you see it in literature, right? There's James Joyce, there's Franz Kafka, there's Proust, writing kinds of novel stories, poems that, you know, would have been unimaginable not too much earlier.
25:58But it's been highly influential, including on the New York scene of composers. My favorite composer, who works with voice, is Robert Ashley. And we can listen to a bit from Robert Ashley. He's speaking, you know, the late 1960s, 1970s, his key works, and maybe about 1987, but he still has works after that. And he's a hard composer to describe. Some of it sounds profound, some of it sounds like lounge music, and he keeps on confusing you as to which of the two he's doing. And Ashley had Tourette's syndrome. So his central obsession was the difference between voluntary and involuntary speech. So he's always trying to figure out what does speech mean?
26:42What does it mean to want to say something, or to say something when you don't want to say something? That's a case where a supposed disability led to what was an extraordinary level of creativity. Now, the Ashley, we will play as an excerpt from his opera improvement. This is Act 1, Scene 8.
27:20No George, there is no mother in birth control. These are three reasons why we should not get married. I have however once, this has been the very relevant one. This has been the part of the world where we should assist these high -pitched and high -pitched. This has been the part of the world where we should not let them have any more things to do, because we probably enjoy it. We are the most future secure. This has been the part of the world where we could go around so for something family. Amazing. This has been the part of the world right. Another reason George is your background, or my background, we seem to see things so differently.
27:53My family is painting, and I'm sure that you're changing your background because that's where you are. For some, still a word for me to visit the South not being, and some are the main things to the Joe Biden's words I paint, and my mother's step by his career is there forever to buy my Russian business from the sky, and provide, as is to provide, and the person not being read, and helping her in the security to provide. Another reason George is your name. Their customs in my family about how men should be named.
28:44George is practically unheard of. They would never get it straight. Do you know what I mean? And have someone visit us, why we saw the sea looking out, the answer to things that we were looking out of, things like this. I love this. It's great, isn't it? Great. It's an early kind of rap music also.
29:14The other amazing Ashley work, the two best I think, the other would be Perfect Lives, which is my personal favorite. And then he has some short of a guard piece, like automatic writing, purposeful lady slow afternoon, that are amazing, and again, just quite different. Let's see your favorite. Well, they don't have automatic writing, but here's in Saramun, in Christ and Beethoven, there were men and women, which is a good piece.
30:18Jesus Christ very heroically, make an as -papa, have very ironically, some of them have a very, very grand, better women to Helen Maria. Anyway, you get the idea. That's true avant -garde. Not. And in the sheet music for this, would it have the words, would the words be there? I'm not sure there would be sheet music, so there would be things programmed in a primitive way. Probably the late 1960s from the sound of it. And he would partly improvise the words, and that's actually speaking. That's his voice. That's his voice. And not that piece, but he often had a pianist named Jean Tierney, who hung around New York, was a great, like Boogie -Wogie, jazz lounge pianist.
31:06And Jean Tierney would show up to these Ashley events and just play stuff, which was also semi -improvised. And the best parts of perfect lives are Jean Tierney and Ashley semi -improvising together and making stuff up like it's a reality TV show or something. So what was ever written down? I don't know. Other people have performed perfect lives. You know the group Mottmos, sort of electronic. They're obsessed with perfect lives. They've done some versions of it. And whenever anyone else does it, it's quite different. So I would imagine and do they make up their own words? Because are they, if the words are improvised, is the idea that they're improvised words here or once the words are improvised forever more, those are the words?
31:51No, I think it's more like a platform. Like here's the perfect lives platform. I see. You slot your own America into the content. I see. And Ashley, as far as I can tell, seemed comfortable with that. My very favorite avant -garde composer, Ashley, maybe in my top two or three, but is Morton Feldman, who is minimalistic, but not like Philip Glass, a beautiful, surreal, calm, meditative, communing with the infinite, you could say, shall we hear just a bit of yes. Morton Feldman's for John Cage. Yes, please. Okay.
34:59I love it. It forces us into the moment. Nothing that comes is what's expected. So there's always the sense of discovery, but it's within the same framework so it's never like a shocking change. More of a delicate reminder to be here now, repeating over and over again. It's like the Portuguese author, Pessoa, you know, the book of very small things. I want to listen to it for a long time. I like the way it makes me feel. There's a string quartet with piano piece by Feldman, which I think is one of his best. And that takes up five compact discs. It's probably about five hours. And to hear that straight through is mind blowing.
35:42Sure, the soul little piece. Let us see if we can find it. How did you come to this music in your life? I had a friend in high school. His name was Eric Lyon and he became a professional composer. He teaches that Virginia Tech. And I would go over to Eric's house for other reasons and he started playing Paul Hindemann for me, which is in retrospect conservative, but in a way it's very different. Was your doorway into it? Yes. And then from Hindemann, you go to Stravinsky and then just everything all opens up. But Eric Lyon, definitely. Okay, piano and string quartet. We have it. This is with Kronos quartet and Aki Takahashi.
36:25And he is one of the great Feldman pianists. He understands more in Feldman's. Piano music very, very well, I think.
37:39Piano music very well. What do you think of that one? I love it. I actually prefer this recording to the recording we just heard. It's more properly slow and to me a little more atmospheric. I love it. There's five hours of that waiting for you anytime you so choose. Of the places you've gone, you've heard music that you've not heard reproduced well recorded, is that correct? Correct. And percussion is the hardest to translate onto a sound system. And you think that's because the recordings are just not that good of the music or is the nature of the music impossible to be captured? I think the nature is very difficult to capture.
38:26And the visual element is very important. And the ceremonial element or the relationship with the audience is important. Obviously a better sound system will capture more of the actual music, but there's a way percussion fills the room that you have to be there. And it's supposed to difference between hearing gospel music in your car and the difference of experiencing it in a participation, participating within the church. Yes, and it's much, much better in the church. Let's try to see if this cut will work for us.
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40:48So, he's so versatile as you know, he can play a kind of bluegrass with Bala Fleck. Shall we hear a tiny bit of that? Let's do. Just to see his range. Of all the places you've been and heard music in person, what's been your fondest memory? Taking my daughter to the Indian classical music festival in Chennai, which is held early every December, runs for, I don't know, maybe two weeks and bringing her around to all these different concerts. And we were able to hear the great Srinivasan on Mandolin, a full concert. Some like a fifth row seat. Maybe I don't know, did the ticket cost us 50 cents or something?
41:29And it's sweltering heat, but no one cares. And it was just unbelievable. Beautiful. Let's try Hussein in Bala Fleck.
41:43It said Gormire on double bass.
43:37What does one even call that? It's beautiful music. It's beautiful music and you can see how the different traditions fit together so seamlessly. It doesn't, it's interesting because the juxtaposition is an unusual collision. Yet if you don't know anything and you just listen to it, it makes perfect sense and it blends beautifully well together. Why don't you tell us about your encounter with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan? When he sang in the recording studio, it was strange watching through the window, seeing him sing, because what we heard coming from the speakers and his mouth motions didn't line up.
44:20It was almost as if the sound was coming from somewhere other than his body. And it was a mystical experience. And I remember this was in the day still where we were using tape before pro tools. And because the length of the pieces were so long, we'd have two tape machines. We're at one point in time, the second tape machine would take over for the first tape machine because we ran out of tape because tapes reels for about 15, 16 minutes long and the music kept going. So we had to be able to revolve and go back and forth. And I think that may have been the only session we've ever had to do that.
45:09Shall we try hearing a bit? Yes. What I like so much is how erratically supercharged they are while still being spiritual.
47:58Beautiful stuff, isn't it? Absolutely. When you hear something in another language, how important is it for you to understand the lyrics? Do you do research to know what they're talking about? Or is it more the visceral reaction to the way it sounds? I often prefer not to know the words. I've read a fair amount about zooffyism, so I feel like at least a small bit immersed in that universe. And if I can imagine what he might be singing that can for me be as good. How about yourself? I'm open to the sounds. I like this. And I would say the same is even true for most most music in English. I'm listening more for the sound of it than necessarily the meaning in the words.
48:48The meaning of the words usually is if I like it, then I make it interested in that. Yeah, I agree with that. My favorite South Asian vocalist, if I had to say, is pondid kumar gantarva. It's usually bad sound, slow to build. But for me, he has the most profound vocal lines. Let's listen a bit. Let's see what we have here by him. I hope it's not too slow to build.
50:38Yeah.
50:57He's amazing, isn't he? Amazing. Thank you for playing such a beautiful music, Chris. There's one piece if I can find it. It's one of the Goldberg variations, and it's the beginnings of atonal music. Glinguild, of course. And either Gould one should work. I actually prefer the Yeah, within without repeat. Different tempo.
51:28Okay, that's it. 25. Perfect. You know, the theme of early being unified with late. We talked about atonal music, avant -garde, percussive music. Box Goldberg variations can be highly percussive. But it's also a starting point for atonal music. And one of the variations, it's not literally atonal, but you can hear it moving in that direction. And it's short to me, quite beautiful. Why don't we play that? Let's do it.
58:27That's spectacular. You can also hear the more infelded, been in that, right? Yes. Incredible connection. Yeah, it's incredibly modern. And I've listened to this particular recording of the Goldberg variations many times over the course of my life. And I've never noticed how interesting that particular one is because in the context of the overall, it doesn't stand out. I've never listened to it. I've never listened to it as a standalone piece. But when you take it out, it's really, it sounds revolutionary. Wagner is the next step in a way. And it's one of boxed greatest achievements, which is really saying something.
59:04So beautiful. Now I thought we would go to something very recent. So I thought to myself an interesting question. Like the last three or four years, what's the single song from that time that has impressed me the most? And you think about it too, because I'll ask you what your pick is. It's not easy. And you may offend some people by choosing anything, right? Yeah, I don't, I don't, I can't even come up with, I don't know that I could come up with one. But I have one. And I'll play just the first, I think two minutes, 15 seconds. It's a nine minute song or so. All nine minutes are great, but I wouldn't say all nine minutes are great on a podcast.
59:40And if you understand the distinction. Yes. For this, why don't we put it on your system? This is Lana Del Rey. And it's called Venice Bitch. This is the song I keep on going back to. I'll play you my favorite Lana song after this. Great.
1:00:09If you find feel like fresh out of folks forever trying to be stronger for you. Ice cream ice cream I dream and jeans and leather life's dream I'm sweet for you. Oh God miss you on my lips. It's me a little Venice bitch on the street with the never kids. Calling out band band kiss kiss. You are in the heart I like the fire. And as the summer fades away. Nothing gold can stay. You're right I do we make it work. A beautiful phenomenon. We're making made. Give me all my one dream one life one lover. May we be in peace.
1:01:35Oh God miss you on my lips. It's me a little Venice bitch on the street with the never kids. Calling out band band kiss kiss. You are in the heart I like the fire. And as the summer fades away. Nothing gold can stay. You're right I do we make it work. A beautiful phenomenon. We're American man.
1:02:17There's more but that's just the beginning of this entrance to this whole musical universe. That just leaves me on the floor. What do you think what how would you describe what it is about if you were to analyze what you think you're reacting to what is it. It's one of those songs like strawberry fields forever. That it's even difficult to talk about but it's a kind of dream pop and it's creating a dream it keeps on shifting like a dream. There's this extreme willingness to admit her passion for her lover's kiss creating or harkening back to this world of an earlier earlier America where things seemed much simpler but the music is complex and just it all comes together and then there's seven more minutes of it where it becomes weirder and you're you're always longing for the earlier more melodic part to come back and it never does and it just makes you want to have to listen to it again.
1:03:10Great but what were you thinking my my favorite one is also on that album and it is that's my favorite album by her. Yeah it's this one. I was reading Samarins and I got to thinking like I maybe I'd get less stressed if I was tested less like all of these debut times smiling for miles and pink dresses and hires and white yards but I'm not baby I'm not now I'm not that I'm not I've been tearing around in my fucking like 24 seven selfie a flat writing in blood on my walls cuz the ink in my pen don't work in my note bag don't ask if I'm happy you know that I'm not but it best I can say I'm not sad because hope is a dangerous thing for a woman like me to have hope is a dangerous thing for a woman like me to have also wonderful yeah it makes me cry every time I hear it makes me cry it's um the power of the lyrics hope is a dangerous thing for a woman like me to have is such a radical line and I think her strength is she paints this world that's clearly in an illusory world it's not it's not a palpable real reality that she's talking about yet we can have this emotional connection of these personal stories in the context of this dream world it's odd like why why would something so dreamy reach us in such a personal way and how would you describe what is special in the production and in the sound it's how ordinary it is I it's um she does very traditional songwriting the way that it's written other than the lyrics are very traditional the lyrics are what makes it super modern I thought now we'd move to a different kind of gut punch so this song I'm also sure you know it's by James Brown whom I discovered I was about 30 years old it completely shook up my musical universe and my favorite James Brown song it's from 1960 it's from the think album it's called Be Wildard and there's oddly enough there's a bunch of earlier versions of the song I think Tommy Dorsey did it first maybe in 1935 and it sounds nothing like the James Brown version it's seen mostly a different melody obviously a different style there's some later rhythm and blues versions which are okay but don't really connect with me and just somehow he picked up on this song and delivered with it and it's one of these songs the first second you're entranced love it's done a dream of you why is it love my name why did we oh me we will love we will love love love we will we will we we will do sleep night night and in love day whoa why did you keep my soul with the spark I am in the dark you will love I need you I need you I need you make a guy yeah I never never stand I need you we will love we will love me never I need you we will love me how you can love me how you can love me and leave me be well done we will love water I am clarifying he can wave or do up with?
1:09:24I suppose the thing that Lane turned up, I think that James Brown is one of the greatest artists of all time, one of my very favorite. And his voice is, there's so much energy in his voice. And obviously he's performed some leave -able but his singing's spectacular. There's nobody else who does what he does. No one can touch him. I love watching him on YouTube. You know the Tammy tapes? Yeah. And then there's a very long Paris concert he did that used to be on YouTube. I think it's still there. There is. And like you, he was very influenced by professional or semi -professional wrestling. Right?
1:10:06No, Gorgeous George. Absolutely. Because Gorgeous George had the cape. Yeah, that's why I picked the James Brown. And I thought, I have a bunch of things together.
1:10:22I don't care. I don't care. I don't care about your best. I just want to help. That's six years later. So that's as early as 66? Yeah, 67. 67. Yeah. I think Be Wildard was made 58 or 59, but he comes out in 1960. And some of Brown is 1953. And the style's fully mature right away. That's to me one of the amazing things about him. There's a great episode about James Brown on the Andrew Hickey podcast about 500 songs telling the history of rock and roll. How do you recommend it? Yeah, good. You ever get to see him live, James Brown? No, you know, I made so many foolish mistakes in my life. And that was one of them.
1:11:15I had the sense, incorrect in retrospect, that later on it was somewhat of a degenerate act, not as good, but it just seems I was completely wrong. Yeah, he was so nice. I never saw Miles Davis. So many foolish omissions I've made in my life. Yeah, I understand. I got to see him several times and never disappointed. Yeah, never disappointed. From the world of classics, let's try Chopin, A -Tude, Opus 25, number six. And there's so many good recordings of this one. I think the one that comes up is certain to be good enough. I'm curious to see what your software will serve us. There's so many wonderful Chopin pianists.
1:12:02Colossus...
1:12:08Ingredients I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room.
1:13:36I'm going to go to the next room.
1:14:02Just perfection, isn't it? Very playful, very beautiful. Interesting that the two hands are two different characters. The left hand is telling us one story and the right hand is running free. And they don't feel, in most pieces, they work together to create this bigger hole. In this one, the two characters are really distinctly laid out for us. And it's almost like the right hand is having fun at the expense of the left hand. This Parisian culture in them, a lot of Polish military culture in Chopin, Italian opera areas, and somehow all brought together into it. Truly European music. Very beautiful.
1:14:57I never heard that piece before. I can just listen to Chopin A2's or Chopin anything again and again. And they're so little he did that is not amazing. Beethoven, there's a fair amount. Maybe it's only 20%, but 20 % of Beethoven's work is still a lot. Chopin, you're hard pressed to find anything that isn't just jaw -droppingly good. Of course, he died at a fairly young age. When did you first get into him? I started going to classical concerts when I was 19, but I had heard plenty on what was then LP. And the A2's were my first love. I don't know that they're the best Chopin, but they're the most accessible.
1:15:38I actually do think they're the best. The nocturnes may be are deeper, dreamier, more languishing, but the A2's, they just hit you. And as a sequence, you know, there's Opus Tan, Opus 25, to hear them in sequence straight through. I never get tired of that. Andre Gavrilov is one of my favorite pianists playing the A2's, the Hungarian Chifra. But again, they've seen so many wonderful recordings. How different are they from recording to recording for you? Oh, very different. So if you hear a Richter who played that first Beethoven cut, if he's doing a Chopin A2, it just sounds so eccentric. He's like taking a part, putting it back together again.
1:16:19Our harwits did a lot of Chopin A2's. He was like Richter, it made it all sound eccentric, but somehow it worked. Pianists today, they're more technically perfect, but also more mainstream. Which we listen to next. I thought we'd go to a group we both love, and that's the birds. They were huge early influence on my musical taste. The birds, of course, also intersect with Bach. So many of them, the McGuin, 12 string cellos, are taken from Bach, Bach corals, Bach cantadas. They blend in psychedelia, Indian music, folk, beatle beat. You know, McGuin talks about this in his live shows, different permutations of birds.
1:17:02I think I've seen in concert more than any other performer, maybe 25 times. But the song, and there's two versions of this, we need to get the better album version. It's Old John Robertson, and it's on notorious bird brothers. And it has the phase shifting and the violin in a way that the single version I think is actually pretty mediocre. Let's get with this one.
1:18:07Old John's got with my violin side, and she's side, but there's two.
1:18:42The first version of the song is the one that I think is the best. I think it's the best version of the song. The first version of the song is the one that I think is the best. The first version of the song is the one that I think is the best. The first version of the song is the one that I think is the best. The first version of the song is the one that I think is the best. The first version of the song is the one that I think is the best. 1968 Gary Usher was the producer. Did you know him? I did not know him. When you hear that, what occurs to you? Bizarre. Bizarre when the effect comes on after the bridge and then goes away, odd choices.
1:19:33It doesn't seem as intentional as experimenting. It feels more experimental than intentional. I don't think they quite ever knew what they were doing when they made that album. For me, it came out very well. It's transitional between psychedelic rock and country rock. That's a Chris Hillman cut. John Robertson was in fact a guy in Los Angeles, an old movie director, who walked around with the Stetson hat on, the songs about him, but it becomes this weird, birdsy psychedelia that builds its own little world in two minutes and then vanishes. And the breakdown in the middle is really beautiful and unexpected and interesting.
1:20:18That's my favorite part. I see. And then missing on the singles version. They cut it out. I think they maybe did the singles version first and they just didn't put it in. And then they heard it and realized something was missing. The birds were in chaos at this point. This is the album where they took out the picture of David Crosby and put in a picture of a horse because they were upset at Crosby as many people were in those days. And Crosby was purged from the tapes. And his songs were not allowed on the album. Those songs I tried, which you know from us, you know, later, CSNY Days, I was supposed to be on this album, Lady Friend of Crosby Song, which I like was supposed to be on this album.
1:20:59And they had to come up with other stuff because they kicked out Crosby. And why did you choose it? I think the Taurius Bird Brothers is their best album. I think for a podcast, you want a song that's both short and starts somewhat abruptly. So people understand what it is they're hearing. And I've always loved the energy of it and the spaciness of the middle part. Cool. And people, you know, turn, turn, turn, all that. Better song, but everyone knows that. So in part, we're here to listen to things that not everyone knows. Yes. Now, I thought in another direction we would take, there's two songs from popular music, both strongly influenced by Calipso.
1:21:46And I've been very interested in Calipso. I've been to Trinidad to hear Calipso. That was a big treat for me. Golden Age of Calipso is less over than people think. And one performer, obviously very famous, but more influenced by Calipso than people realize. That's Chuck Berry. And this song is Havana Moon. And it's one of those songs where throughout the song you're waiting only for one moment. Maybe that makes it not an ideal podcast song. Because if you're not listening for the one moment, the whole song makes no sense. So the second time you hear the song, it's much better than the first time you hear the song.
1:22:21Because the anticipation of that moment matters. And it's a scream. But if you can find Chuck Berry, Havana Moon, I'm guessing that's from 1957. Let me try Chuck Berry's. And this song just builds. You know, at first, it's not great or it doesn't seem great. And songs like that are interesting. They're like puzzles. And there's the sense of mystery that he's telling you a story throughout the song. Here we go.
1:22:59Havana Moon. Havana Moon. Havana Moon. Me all alone with a jubble rum. Me standing wait for both to come. Is long day night. Is quiet the dark. The boat she lays since 12 o 'clock. Me watching tide. Is an end. Is loading moon. But how do we have Havana Moon. Havana Moon. Me all alone. Me opening the rum. Is long day wait for both to come. A American girl, come back to me. We'll sail away across to sea. We'll dive into New York, debilting tide. We find a homeboat in the sky. Havana Moon. Havana Moon. Me standing alone. Me sitting on the rum. Me wondering when the boat she comes to bring me love.
1:24:23Ow! Sweet little thing. She rock and roll. She dance and sing. She hold me tight. She touch me lips. Me eyes they close. Me heart she flippin'. Havana Moon. Havana Moon. But still alone. Me drinking the rum. Begin' to think. Did it hold no calm. A American girl. She tell a lie. She say till then. She being goodbye. Havana Moon. Havana Moon. Me lay down alone. Was good and run. Me fall asleep. Did it hold she come? Did it girl she look? Till come the dawn. She weep and cry return for home. The whistle blow. Me open when the eyes was bright. The sun was blue the skies. Me grab me shoes. Me jump and run.
1:25:39Me seated, bow head for horizontal. Havana Moon is gone, it run. Did both she sail. Me love she gone. Havana Moon.
1:25:55Havana Moon. The diction in that I find so impressive. It's like he created his own English and all the songs. But in that song it's especially clear. You know, that just how he is speaking is so different. And because it's less caught up in rock and roll, like a lot of other wonderful berry songs. But certain things are clearer, I find. It's so bare and spare. Yeah. And there's Cuban in there. There's Calypso, a lot of Caribbean. And he masters those elements. Where do you think you would have heard Calypso music in 1957? Well, at that time it was extremely popular in the United States. Between the Beatles and others come along.
1:26:36That Brazilian Calypso actually become much less commercially successful. So most people would have known those genres. And it's one of the unfortunate things about the era of classic rock, which I love. But it swept away many other interesting things out of the public's attention. Who would have been the most notable artist in the Clipso world? The one I like the best is roaring lion. The famous figure in America would have been Rudy Valley. There's a wonderful, maybe see if you can find it on there. There's a roaring lion song about Rudy Valley. If you type in roaring lion, Rudy Valley, I bet nothing comes up.
1:27:16But if it comes up, we should hear it. I think mostly the best way to listen to Calypso is on collections or semi -randomly using YouTube or searching other services. You don't need to have a favorite artist. There he is. This sounds like it.
1:27:52You be parry over the sea. I'll tell you a story. You do not know it's about cannibal and calypso. You be parry over the sea. It is the folk song and ballad of that beautiful island of Trineta. You be parry over the sea. Every year is cannibal, don't forget. That is Trineta national fed. You be parry over the sea. On cannibal mornings, six bell chimes and every one they would start to rhyme. You be parry over the sea.
1:29:04You be parry over the sea. Jump your jump dance your dances. Back on our pre -mass for lemon and cannibal. You be parry over the sea. Jump in the line and break our way shake your hip. Believe and think our way. You be parry over the sea. Jump in the line and break our way shake your hip. And smoke your lips roll your eye roll your head and shake your hips. You be parry over the sea. Monday morning on parry, everybody might play my sky. If you look at Rudy Valley's discography, do any look like they may hit the calypso vibe? Well, a lot of it does. He was the calypso popularizer, not my favorite, but roaring lion, did a song about Rudy Valley.
1:29:51I see. But that's an excellent song. It's a very famous calypso. Cool. Call and response from West African music. It has everything. Cool. The background noises. But now let's try some what I call white calypso. And this is Harry Nielsen. Another favorite from early in my life. And it's not a well -known song. It's on an album that was totally dismissed when it came out. His voice was wrecked. From smoking, from drinking. This was around the Pussycats period with John Lennon. But the album is do it on Monday. And the song is Puget Sound. If you just put in Nielsen Puget Sound, we ought to get there.
1:30:30And this is Harry at his most calypso.
1:31:49The music is a very famous calypso. It's a very famous calypso. And this is Harry at his most calypso. And this is Harry at his most calypso. And this is Harry at his most calypso. And this is Harry at his most calypso. And this is Harry at his most calypso. And this is Harry at his most calypso. And this is Harry at his most calypso. Crack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a jack a you you you you you you you halling out that's why you watch how we do that at the Hoyeon do you mix it up here in Williamsburgon High MAYOR GYN Library Army just collapse into incoherence it's a huge party scene it's just collapsed into incoherence it's incredible fun.
1:33:04I like all the cacophony in the background. It evokes, again, this earlier America, Puget Sound, is this very hoki place, and just this drunk guy seeing me at giving it his best. I think this is the one that's the one I think of when I think of him in this style of, in this groove.
1:33:29Also, Calypso inspired. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think of this one. I think this one. Yeah.
1:34:17All the people on the scene from what I've heard, including the Beatles, they considered Harry, the polymath, who knew everything. You could ask him about anything he would know. He supposedly had an incredible memory, remarkable mastery of different musical styles. His career never reached potential. It could have or should have.
1:34:37But if you can impress the Beatles, that says something. Absolutely. Both John and Paul. Yes, they loved him. Yeah, I love Harry's stuff. Yeah, he's great. And his voice, unbelievable. These songs are not necessarily the songs that most show off his voice. But I think in a way they do because he's not doing anything acrobatic. There are all these subtle little ways he's using it precisely because he can't sing properly anymore, at least for the Puget Sound Cut. How are we in time? Do we have time for two more? Yes, assume. Okay. The first one, this is a cut for you in particular because his understanding of spirituality reminds me of you.
1:35:18And this is a song that he himself described as about longing for place. And the artist, his name is Guru Mahal, G -U -R -R -U -M -A -L. And the title of it, it's named after a bird, it's Wyatt Toul, or Wyatt Toul, W -I -Y -A -T -H -U -L. And there should be a studio version and a live version. Studio versions a little overproduced. So if the live version is there, we'll do that. But if we need to, we'll do the studio. And he's sometimes called an aboriginal from Australia, but technically he would be a tourist, straight islander. And he was born blind and was a kind of musical genius who sang about his homeland in his native language.
1:36:44Mmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm No no no you know no hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm m ee m m oo o I'll Because this is not a delay.
1:37:44This is happening . It will be a delay. I'm going to be a little bit more beautiful I'm going to be a little bit more beautiful I'm going to be a little bit more beautiful I'm going to be a little bit more beautiful I'm going to be a little bit more beautiful Can't I be a little bit more beautiful?
1:38:26Can't I be a little bit more beautiful?
1:38:44Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh Oh boy לשan and he sleeping with him's mom, him his woman, I'll miss mother I'm going to be a little bit more beautiful I'm going to be a little bit more beautiful I'm going to be a little bit more beautiful I'm going to be a little bit more beautiful I'm going to be a little bit more beautiful You are my only one You are my only one You are my only one You are my only one You are my only one You are my only one When I thought I had to pick one especially for you, that's the one that came to mind.
1:41:38Now that I know you a bit. So beautiful. And there's nothing else like it is there. No, no, his voice is so pure and there's so much energy in it and we don't need to understand the words. It's like it's all there. My wife and daughter had the good fortune to see him perform in Paris before he passed away. Sadly, I missed that. But it leaves me without words. Beautiful. Last cut, of course, it has to be Paul McCartney, right? How could it be anyone other than Paul McCartney? But you need to ask yourself, what is it you can play for people from Paul McCartney that is new? So I picked a cut for two reasons.
1:42:20First is there's so much this reputation that solar McCartney or early solar McCartney. It's all like sweet or sickly or too gushy and that's so wrong in my view. And this is a cut that it shows the sardonic side of early solar. Paul and Linda, Paul and Linda did this together. It's on the Ram album. It's called Dear Boy. And Paul said during a satellite radio special that it's actually addressed to Linda's previous husband. And they're telling him he didn't know what a good thing he had with Linda. And Linda, of course, joins in. Now, I don't know any of the people or details. I'm fully on Paul's side.
1:43:01But to have the stones to do that, you know, to your relatively new wife's ex -husband and do it so publicly as a beetle, that's wonderful, I think. That's radical. And then the harmonies, how much it's a tribute to the Beach Boys. And Brian Wilson, when the song came out, he was having his own troubles. He didn't know about it. He heard it many years later and was just overwhelmed by the job Paul did, kind of reimagining Beach Boys style production. But for Paul and Linda McCartney in 1971. That's us.
1:43:56I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going to say that I'm not going No!
1:44:56I'm a million and a thousand The You're the music producer, any comment? I've never heard of before. I don't remember hearing it before. It's just perfectly composed, use of percussion. Yeah. Super cool. Yeah. I want to play you my favorite modern era, Paul Saul. I'd love to hear it. This is from 2008. Mine is when Winter comes, but if you're wondering.
1:46:26You're saying that we hear this is true. The best thing to do is to lie down inside me. I said I love you. I'm never new, but it's just outside.
1:47:09I said I love you. I said I love you. I said I love you. The last thing to do is to try to betray me.
1:47:29I never forget it, that's just outside.
1:47:42I think he's 70 and on that. It's just his passion for the rock and roll is so strong. As a closer should we hear just a snippet from when Winter comes? It's a nice letting off steam. And it's on the very latest album. There's a wonderful animated YouTube video that goes along with it. I enjoy watching the video and listening at the same time.
1:49:01I'm going to play a song for you to listen to when Winter comes. And for this guest, we'll want our toes to stay indoors. When summer's gone, we'll fly away and find the sun. When Winter comes, I must find the time to plant some trees. In the matter where the river flows, in time to come they'll make a shade for some poor soul. When Winter comes, and food is scarce, we'll want our toes to stay indoors. When summer's gone, we're gonna fly away and find the sun. When Winter comes, I must fix the fence by the acre block. Two young foxes have been noted around in the lands and the chickens won't feel safe until it's done.
1:50:34When Winter comes, and food is scarce, we'll want our toes to stay indoors. When summer's gone, we're gonna fly away and find the sun. When Winter comes, and find the sun. When Winter comes.
1:51:18What more can one say? So beautiful. Thank you so much for doing this. I have a feeling we'll be doing this a lot more in the future. That would be great. Thank you Rick. Thank you.
1:51:59Thank you.
From the publisher
Tyler Cowen has long nurtured an obsession with music. It’s one of the few addictions Tyler believes is actually conducive to a fulfilling intellectual life.
In this bonus episode, an addendum to Rick’s conversation with Tyler, Rick sits with Tyler as he plays and talks through the music that moves him: from the outer bounds of the avant-garde to contemporary pop music and all points in between.
