Urs Fischer

31:22And so you can see that that guy tries to do this and then that lets you look up the thing, you know? Somehow. Every other way where it's like, wow, that guy was great. I wish I could do what he does. Oh, there's a lot of stuff I could never do again. Yeah. That I wish I... I don't know, not in a way of like losing any sleep over it, but it's more like... This sometimes like an innocence or a... Coolness or like a freshness or a light and it's like just like, unwaid down or... Yeah. Now you know a lot more than you did then. And that can either be helpful or it can completely undermine that. That can do everything.

32:07Yeah. Well, I'll take that over the other thing at any second. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't think there was ever a day in my life where I wanted to go a day back. And it's weird how that just happens. Like I think most people feel somewhat this way and you just... How you would never want to trade back. I'm unsure of the body and stuff like that. Not so fond of. But even that, you know?

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34:14Would you say all the work in some way is biographical? I think it's inevitable personally. That's my opinion. There's a lot of different thoughts from different people. But I think biographical energy plays into anything you do. Maybe self -synarchy or whatever. But there is not just you doing the thing. There is you doing the thing. I do like a practice where you just do whatever comes your way. Then I have friends that have this practice where they do this thing. They do. They do this thing for decades. If I envision myself like you do this thing, you go in there for 10 hours a day and you do this thing.

35:14What is that thing? But maybe within that there is a lot of room. For also biographical little things, it's just maybe it's not as loud, it's maybe not as screaming, it's not as raw. Maybe it's I don't know what it is, but it's fascinating to me. And that's also I think you see that more of people that have an image. So to speak, you know, like you know what they do. The stands, it's like a clear representation of one thing. You know, when you think about art, one thing I'm fascinated about it is, like I like Ervers, I don't like individual artworks much. But I like what somebody did in their entire life.

35:59Yeah. That's interesting. The body of work. The whole body of work with their bad years, the good years, the whole package. Yes. I think it's it's been a real power lace for me in art. Like it's a kind of a package I find not so clearly in other arts. Yeah. And in that there is this thing where, you know, there is always this idea of authenticity. Somebody can be very greedy and corrupt and just makes things for money. But that's authentic. You have a very authentic person trying to make a little step into a commercial thing and they lose everything they have. And it's just because it's not authentic to them.

36:52And you see that in a, as one, this is just one fragment. You see like, if you look at somebody's entire life of everything they do. And when it comes to an image, you see like one of my best or closest experience I have, like where I, with art, we're really positive because I'm not always liking it. It's I go into a beautiful retrospective show somewhere. And I walk out and I see things differently. Do you see the world differently after experiences? Yes. So it adds something to how I see or how what you pay attention to or what you, just how you experience things, you know, like it, to be like reading someone's biography, the equivalent of that would be going to their show, seeing their life's work.

37:46Yeah. And you're getting a sense of how they see the world. Yeah. And it's in a more visual, like, nonverbal way. Yeah. And that's something I'm always drawn logically. I mean, I just like shapes and colors. You know, for whatever reason, we have different preferences as people. Yeah. You just somebody saw it for you and then how do you see it in a way? Yeah. You see a new possibility, maybe. Yeah. Or you just the understand them, you know, and that's more of an image. That makes sense. Yes. I often think if you're more all over the place, what is your image here? Yeah. You remember the first time you had the experience of seeing a retrospective of an artist and feeling of changed by it?

38:39Yeah, yeah, totally. What was the first one? As a semi grown up, like, about 17 or 18, I saw Bruce Naumann show and I didn't know who that is. And I walked in there and I went, it's clown screaming and some shit moving. And you're like, I really felt that. I was like, what the fuck is this? You know, like do you see things in the way you never experienced them before? Do you see you had no context for it? Zero. Very little. It's just walked in and you're like, yeah. There's no context that could go either way. Like it could be the coolest thing you've ever seen or the first instinct could be, I don't know what this is, I don't like it, you know?

39:20But that's two feelings. I mean, a lot of things you don't like, they're kind of the same as the things you like. Yeah. And they have some charge that you're reacting to. When you were describing the energy before, there's a piece in the room and there's energy. Is the energy in the piece or is the energy in you reacting to the piece? There is a, I remember, I was a little older, maybe like 18 or 19, I was in the National Gallery in London. And there is this first room you come in with all this impression is paintings like Wungo, Sunflower, there's a Surov, Baffer from whatever, you know? And you can stand there and you watch everybody that most people that came in had a reaction to a recording of some pigment on binder on canvas that has been placed in a specific place.

40:23And logically it's just molecules and whatever. But everybody had a reaction. So that would make it a perpetuumobility of sorts. Because everybody can take energy out and only once energy has been put in. Yeah. And it doesn't stop giving the energy. And I think that's probably something that has to do with the ability, I mean, you're way more knowledgeable. Anything you can record has that chance of being in count of the gain and the gain and the gain. So in what is it? It's in the recording, in this case when it's molecules, I mean, I have no idea. But I do, I mean, I do know that that some things feel good.

41:15For example, but it's not just a visual experience, some things feel good, some things look good, some things smell good. And that's definitely like stuff that is in there or tastes good. Yeah, you know, you think it all relates back to nature? I don't know. It's nature are blueprint for what looks good and tastes good or not necessarily. I think, I mean, like beauty. Yeah. I'm fascinated with nature. I have so many different plans. I'm like, I have new plans every week. My garden is like full of plans.

41:52And I'm fascinated because it grows out of very little, like even airplanes that have airplanes. Like so, like, it grows out of nothing, little light, little, I don't know, little water. And they leave more behind than they take. They sort it out with each other. They always figure it out who grows what the bullet seems. And then some of them have blossoms. And where you have the blossoms, then you attract insects and you attract birds. Some little hummingbirds, whatever. And then the blossoms communicate. And the blossom is like, I don't know, the history of the blossom, one's reading up about it, like, like, Moknole doesn't they?

42:39So it became a way of means of transport or like, procreation in a way. And like flowers, even in nature, are they stand out? I mean, to us and to any insect, you can just watch. They go, they all know and how they smell. And when you watch an animal, usually it works. Their date is so graceful. Their coats, I mean, it's just divine, you know? Yeah. And they don't make mistakes really or something. They're not confused. Like, you just see them doing their thing. And it's hard to imagine that beauty is not... It's not the part of all of it, or it's just our perception, you know? In my feeling, it is...

43:31Also, you know, like, let's say, you look at an ice home. Yeah. And that's kind of the best we can do. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it's really like amazing what they managed to put in there. I mean, like, in so many ways, like, but you look at... I like to look at leaves a lot, you know? Yeah. And just how that all works, and it makes it all out of nothing, and then it disappears. And how everything works together and then from... whatever, microbes, really. Like, all the crazy stuff we don't even understand. But, like, how smart that design is. Yes. And then how clumsy everything else feels. Like, that we...

44:12our achievements, you know, a toilet bowl or like whatever, you know? It has the right water flow to flush. Or like, you know, it's like, I made this... It's totally barbaric in comparison. Exactly. To every little bug is like... I mean, I watch ants. Miraculous. I mean, the ants... I see the ants carrying like some stuff. Yeah. Big stuff. Little ants carrying big things. And then you see them communicating, like, all around. And then you see people trying to communicate. You know, it's difficult. It's very difficult. Yeah. I don't think words do justice to the experience. No. As a human, you're born early.

45:02Explain. I think because from somebody told me, my sister told me, you know, studied biology and so on, whatever. So, because we walk up right, we come out a little early for the size of mammal we are, you know? And but we can afford that to kind of rear our children slowly. And then if you think it takes 18 years to be able to go out into the world, kind of, you know? Until you learn all these complicated social norms and all that. And I was the reason you had the dentist, and I had this video playing of this octopus. You know, it's just one of these underwater films. And it's just like, this game was so freaking smart and beautiful.

45:50And how it moved. And I was thinking about me raising my two daughters and how complicated it is. I did you from a teenage or all these things. You're like, what good does that do actually? You know what I was saying? Yeah. Like, there's a level of complication to everything. And our interactions, like, what is it? And it starts with us deciding we know the right way to do it, which is a real question mark. You know, who knows? Yeah. I mean, that's just a feeling. When you think you're right, that's usually a feeling. Yeah. Who knows? And what's right for you and what's right for me might not be the same.

46:32And what's right for us might not be right for someone on the other side of the world. And it's impossible to know. Like, there's too many conditions that dictate everything. Or what do you think you thrive for you is actually wrong for you? Yeah. And we know many of our friends are like this. Oh, I'm like this. Or the fact that if we were alive 200 years ago, it would be a whole different set of rules. Yeah. You know, not even that long ago. Yeah, less. Those were the remnants of my parents. It was difficult to ramp the apartment because they were not married. Yeah. Like, and you're saying, what the fuck?

47:11Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you care? Yeah. And in other parts of the world, the rules could be completely different. How many places have you lived in the world? Just Europe and here. So in Europe, the differences are kind of there, but it's not like closer than everywhere else. Yeah, I think I never lived in Latin countries in Europe. So it's like, that's a different culture, I think. I lived in, I grew up in Switzerland and I lived in England. It was more different than at some point I ended up in Berlin a bit. And then I lived in Amsterdam as a... I mean, I was 19 and moved there. So the first place I moved to because I thought it's kind of smaller.

47:50I can manage. So Amsterdam was the first place you moved. Yeah, that didn't speak any English. So my English was from Leidennotes. If it dictionary, you know, it's a kind of... Was Amsterdam a good experience? I had a really good time and it was a sweet size of a city. When you're kind of alone and you go out and you don't really know what you want. Did you really know you were going to do art or no? Yeah. It's just like doing things. So I did photography and some art stuff before and I worked a lot of theater. It was interesting to me like I worked with that a bit. And then when I went to Amsterdam, yeah, I thought I was doing art.

48:35When I bumped into some guy, told me there is a school that gave some money in the studio. And I went to that school, knocked on the door. And I had some drawings. I made some... I put the drawings in the box and the night before I walked back. The woman walked back and it was heavily perfumed. Not just for that kind of a good way to get the attention. I put all this perfume on my application. So you have a little factory thing. And then they called you know on the phone. They called and said, yeah, you can come in. And then I went there and this had somebody just left because they had like 10 people a year.

49:15Yeah. It was like some postgraduate program.

49:20And I know it was not postgraduate. There was 19 and just didn't really finish anything before. And then that was kind of my introduction. Then I first timed out with people that were educated through art schools and so on. Was that good or bad? That was very enlightening. Yeah. And I'm glad I didn't start there. Yes. For me it felt like a shock. So you see there were some dudes that were totally back then. I think there was just a tail end of Julian Schnabel being like a dominating figure in painting and perception for younger people. And there were these few old dudes. They were kind of like fighting to be like this kind of very masculine.

50:04Large canvas guys. And then there were some people that had some conceptual things and some keep painted some figure. Each had their little pocket and they knew exactly what they do. And they had an idea of a career path and a gallery or a museum. Like was all educated. And if you were coming through the side door, you can just look at it. You're not like in it. Yeah. And I'm really glad I did. Would you say you've always felt like an outsider? I don't know. I'll never fall about it this way. But I think of it a little bit the other way around. I think this is a lot of this education and this stuff is kind of alien.

50:50I see. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, you're saying. I think it's just celebrate your life. And I don't understand in various forms. I don't understand this need to quantify that. Yeah. As a lot of education in the arts does. I mean, it's not as free as you see. The possibilities. Is that a way to say it? Yeah. I mean, it's very narrow. Yeah. Like some of it is extremely narrow. And I don't know why one would want to engage in that. Yeah. I guess if you believe that's what it is. If you learn that early enough, you think that's what it is. You're saying that you had the advantage of not having the blinders put on you early.

51:35Yeah, totally. I think, you know, if you're just surrounded by people that say things and think they are part of it. I mean, it's always belonging to you know, like the way I understand it is a lot of fear. And you want to do the right thing. And you want to be kind of like your peers in some way. And you want to be part. And I don't totally understand. But I do know I don't understand art education. You think it can be taught? Back to synergy, you know? I think there are always pockets as we all know. Like in any kind of creative or artistic or even business or whatever. Like there is always pockets of people.

52:17It's hardly ever meet the solitaire. You know, you always, there's little things. And what leads to this situation to be fertile. So many factors we don't know. But it's like then things develop. And it is probably like one way of how you can facilitate a chance that you have. I mean, you always have an experience, but that these experience could be really kind of cross pollinating and do more. But I'm sure you know, better than most people, you cannot force magic. You can't force anything. Yeah, I'm sure like people come to you and they want some magic. You get some magic. Like, you know, I'm like, it doesn't work out.

53:01It doesn't work out. It doesn't work out. What was your first tattoo? A little dot to your. A dot. Well, this little dot, you know, when you just take a fountain pen. And then I had the, this was some lion. Here's some heraldic lion. And something nice to be done. I'm like, I'm not how will we when you got the dot? The first dot, I've probably, I don't know, 12 or something. I've totally forgotten that I have the tooth. I have to tell you, I literally forget.

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55:07How is living in New York different than living in Europe? It was more welcoming as a non -native person. I think that in general about living in North America is my experience as not being from here. It's such that there are many people that are not from here or there are different histories. Nobody is from anywhere. Some people think they are. But it leaves more room. If I live where I try to live somewhere in Europe not just to visit or spend some time of the year once you go somewhere and you're younger and you realize you will never be English. You will never be Dutch. You will never be French Italian.

56:01You will never be that. That's usually after two years when I started to live. I did not have that experience. I actually become more part of it. The longer I was there almost to that point where you're like, it's good to get out. At this period, first when I moved there, in Zurich where I grew up, the people that went to New York in the early 90s. A lot of them were very ambitious. Some of them were kind of a little bit of assholes. I always imagine that City must be a hub for people with too much ambition and this and that. I never had a fantasy to move there. My fantasy must always have to move to California.

56:51Coming from a medieval city, I like the idea that this is the end of Western civilization, not the old baked -in version. But then once I moved to New York, it felt similar than when I first got into art where you see all these things. You know, all these things where you can hop in and you see books and other sources of information and things in real or people. But you realize you can be part of something and it felt to me still like there is a lot of history. And going in there, it felt like you're not just a bunch of kids doing something, you're part of a long history. And that was really great to be part of, you know, or to feel that you are partake in that somewhat.

57:43Do you feel like there's a artistic community there? Now? Yeah. I'm sure yet there are communities here. I'm going, but they also have people that are 80 that once did something, people 70, 60, 50, like you have all from all in different dimensions, directions. And they're all kind of there, you know. And it's a very rich network of histories and also of self -mifologizing creatures on top of each other. It gives what you do context and makes you feel what you do as a purpose. If that's true or not, it's a feeling of you're not just like in somewhere, maybe you're doing something and then maybe you get sent out and you're like, what is that?

58:37Yeah. And the California experience has happened for you. I just love being outdoors. Yeah. I'm outdoors, even in the winter, I have a coffee, check it's some blankets and heaters. Yeah. In this part of my life, that makes more sense to be closer to nature, but still being an urban place than to be in a lot of noise. Have you experimented it over technology? Always, yeah. I mean, more kind of technology, I mean, I guess we'll say digital because I guess there's physical technology too. Yeah, and most things I do go through a computer at some point in various ways, either in conception or in production.

59:30I made kind of robotic chairs a few years back. I don't know when that was maybe 2018, 19, some free roaming, I don't know if you ever saw it. I've never seen them. They're chairs that move around. They're chairs. They're office chairs. I mean, it's totally crazy technology. They make no sound when they move from the battery. They go and charge themselves. But they're all just one office chair. They have different colors and they're free roaming robots. And they program to have different and they have about nine centers built in a spender, downhouse on those, you know, like only dumb. But they have different personalities.

1:00:06The way they react to people. Do you think of them like pets? No, it was more like that. It started with the idea of humans and patterns, like how we are working in patterns. So you say you approach somebody. And they're very nice. The next time you approach them and you expect, you always read what to expect, you know. And some people have a personality that's kind of shifting, you know. And they mess up a lot of things, you know. And so I wanted to make this nine office chairs and they move around. I wanted them like build expectations and also like in a way as a human like have your expectation project.

1:00:54Oh, I know how this works. You approach it. It goes away. You approach it and goes away. You approach it. It stands still. You approach it again. It goes away. Then you think it's a glitch. You approach it again. And then it approaches you. You have a very hard time reading what's going on. Yeah. You know, yeah. And very quickly you can create some confusion. So that didn't totally work out because at the time you had a little bit of a lack. Just a little bit too long for people that went because what happens, people go first slow. Then they go, think it doesn't work. Then they go fast. Then they go slow.

1:01:31And then the chair reacts. And then you're with a little tiny time like you're already kind of not in sync with the people's reaction. So it didn't totally function on this level. And then they did some choreography together. And I could show you. You want to see that? Yeah, please. So I have two videos. It's great. It's so funny. And they're very ordinary looking chairs. They look like the chairs you'd see in any office. Yeah, but there is two molders per wheel. There is a chip that we have some import problems because it can use it to guide the rocket. There is like all the technology is inside this chair.

1:02:18It's like, hey, then they don't make a sound. And then the seat cushion is actually a battery that we have made. And there is a robotic thing where they go, drive in and charge themselves. And they all know where they are. They know where the people are. I mean, by now we could probably do much better than this. But it's so cool. So then we assigned like micro movements. They can go 30 miles an hour. Wow. So if you have one glitch, they could be dangerous. Yeah. So that's all remade. Like this is not the real chair. This is all remade. Cool looking. And then they do choreographies together. When there is a room, soon they see room, they find each other, then they do choreographies.

1:02:58It's a funny idea to think about like when the office closes and everybody leaves, that this is what happens. You know, even somebody goes slow, you can actually do that with them. Yeah. But with the time like they get confused. If you're confused, you know, and then they have a finities to each other and not. And it's like it's pretty complex. And the title is play. And always thought it's interesting. Because we can watch animals play. Yeah. You don't need to be a human to play. Yeah. Like, I heard. So from the inception, tell me the process of getting from the idea to getting to that. I had some idea, like, some years earlier for that.

1:03:39It was a table that just moves around. Like whenever you go in a space, the table, it will go away. It will come to you and this and that. Because I saw like some cars, you know, when you back up, you have these little sensors. That's easy to do. And it wasn't. And then I forgot about it. And. And on some point, I was thinking about it again. And I called a friend of mine who has nothing to do with robotics. But he's very smart. And then we did this in one and a half years. The whole production and everything. The idea is ever based on a new technology you see. And then you see an application.

1:04:20Or is it always the dream of what it could be first and then figuring out how to technically make it happen? It's more like you tried. You're kind of informed what you see in the real world. Maybe in this way, but you don't know how it works. But you think it should be possible to push that and apply that in a different context. Like just backing up cars and cameras and sensors. Why can't we put that in something else? And then the other thing is a vocabulary. I mean, things you you have done before. Like let me do a lot of things now. You scan stuff for any kind of how you go about or work with data.

1:04:59You have a vocabulary of what you know is possible. And that informs the way you think about. Like, for example, I often with a work. I just lay around. And then I think about something or it comes for wherever it's just there. And then I go through the whole process of how it's made one step by step. So free make the entire thing in my mind. With all the technical complications and everything in there. And so then it's kind of finished in this way. And then you make it. And then when you make it logically, it doesn't turn out exactly like how you imagine. And then you deal with that part. Does that whole process happen before you ever say, write it down or draw something or.

1:05:57That's a funny question because I mean it's the same when people say they write their diaries and they do it by hand. How how the defects you're thinking and what you write and how it's part of your life. Like when you write the fact that you're thinking is much faster than. You writing that sentence is kind of a good thing sometimes. But then what I don't, what thing I don't like personally about writing is that it has to somewhat make sense. Like you start with a sentence and it goes to the next sentence and then you're like, you kind of put yourself a bit into a corner. And then how we get out of there.

1:06:35So the other thing is more. It's also more for three dimensional things where you have to the production or the whole like how it comes into life where you need to fold that in early, you know. For a sculpture, is there a point where you build a small model? Hardly ever. No. It's a thing with like notes. I make a lot of notes, but my notes are really messy. They're not like accurate drawings. But you know what they mean or they help you remember things. I used to make lots of them and I plastered my walls with them. And then I thought of it as a three dimensional model of ideas and how they interconnect and so on.

1:07:20But then I realized I never look at them again. Never. And then I have boxes full of that stuff and then I stopped doing them. And now recently the last year I got back into it, but I never looked at that stuff again. Do you think art is meant to be seen next to other art? You mean physically? I mean, I don't mind it. Does it change anything? Context changes everything. It's even like in your brain when you look at something, you think you already bring context into everything. And some stuff looks way better when you combine it. Has your work ever been censored? Has it? Oh, the last time I got some slack was we put up this big sculpture in the center of Moscow.

1:08:11And I was like, you know, a huge, huge outdoor sculpture, or 45 feet or whatever in the center of the city. And it got singled out by some more right parts in politics as weird things. It obstructs the buzzy list of the thing or whatever a liberal turn or now this comes to our say, you know, whatever. But it's not my work. It's like it's ridiculous. I mean, there is a lot of problems there. And it's definitely not in a piece of metal. Yeah. Yeah. Did you made pieces that are wax and they're candles essentially? Yeah, they work like a candle. Wasn't in the beginning. I mean, it started like, you know, I kind of always like when they light a candle for something or somebody.

1:09:08It's like a flame or like, I think a lot of us think about flames. It's like some other flame of life or like a soul or like there's something to fire that. I don't know what it is, but I always see fire as something all life. Yeah. So I just put in some sculptures. I just put a regular household candle just to kind of because of what it maybe it needs to be alive. So you put that there and then over something the thing becomes alive, you know. If you think you have your office chair there or you put a candle on that, then the chair becomes like something else, you know. So it's a way. And then it shifts it from there.

1:09:51It's a why not make a whole thing out of as a candle. The beginning I carved these female figures like a more traditional, I had no clue what I was doing. A more traditional kind of art idea, you know, like of like it felt like a nude somewhat figure is like the most simplest figure that doesn't need to be like somebody. You know, and some years later, there was this guy Peter Brandt, I don't know if you know who is a collector and he's married every Stephanie similar and they have. The commission various artists to make portraits of her one is Maritsa, Catalonia, Julian, they didn't portrait and different people.

1:10:41And I offered I have a portrait in mind. And it was a portrait of Peter Brandt and does it just been the scanning technology for people kind of like to scan human bodies was somewhat. Mobile enough that we could work with this technology. And it was a portrait of Peter standing behind this chair. And the chair was empty when that was my portrait of her because all the other artists made a portrait of her and I thought there is something. He's also in there, you know, and I wanted to call the piece Stephanie. And I made a show with the brand foundation at their family foundation in Connecticut and and that piece was a part of the works in there, but they separated in that time.

1:11:34And so I couldn't call the piece Stephanie anymore. I thought that would just feel bad, you know, so I'm. Then it was Peter and out of that came. He's portraits and then the next thing at the time I shared a studio, we were really single and. Then I wanted to make a portrait of him. And then I wanted to make a portrait of him and then I thought because he grew up in Italy, in order, in Italy, like all the history is European history. So then I thought he should be with a big sculpture, like of pressing old European art history kind of big thing, you know. And so that called out a hand that came very big.

1:12:24And then I wanted to put something else that's totally not thinking this way, the things ergonomic. There's an office chair actually the same one I used for the robots because it has an ergonomic design that this doesn't go by the same aesthetic principle. So I just had that to walk up high like some space around it. So that's kind of how that came about and then I got into it whenever I met somebody that I felt has. Like the resting position pretty much, you know. Carries an image like one friend of mine, I made the thing of this guy, I had a McEwen, a good friend of mine and the. But he's kind of taught me often looks down so he's a bit more like a shoe gaser, he feels some kind of the thought, the weight of thought always in his posture.

1:13:12And it's not that it's about him being this way it's like more like an image of that and he just shows that worry. Well, I made this ported of Julian, no believe it's of this crate and I that was my image of Julian in a way it's like this. And on one side it's like a boy sitting by a pier fishing. But then if you look from underneath it's also like a pedestal you're kind of on there and you. It's great like this so that's kind of just these images of people. So all these portraits are basically candles that's what meant like so from putting a candle on top of it to pudding. Then making it out of a candle make it yeah out of wax or then a candle so make the sculpture as the candle instead of putting a top or on it.

1:14:07Now do you do that by sculpting into the wax or do you melt the wax and point into a form. You make a negative and you brush in the surface all the different colors into the halves or multi parts. Then that gets faking up combined and then you turn it upside down and fill it with the wax. I see. So the color is actually in the wax. Yeah, it's brushed into like into the mold. Yeah, when you take the mold away then it's like it's basically like in there. It's part of the body. It's not applied after you know do you ever make more than one candle out of the same mold. Yeah, you can. Well, the last about five six runs a mold.

1:14:54Pretty cool. Yeah, it's good. And you know the good thing is you can burn it down. Yes. And then we can make a new one. Yeah. So it doesn't age. It doesn't have the problem of aging which everything in the physical world has the problem of aging. Yeah. Do any of them live not burned like most of it's cost -efortant to recast them. That's a expensive hobby to wipe that thing up. You know, I read a story somewhere that you had a plan to build a bed for a show but it ended up becoming a horse. It's self - familiar. A horse. It's a horse bed. I don't know that doesn't sound familiar but it's what it was.

1:15:44It was like a horse and taraged. I was thinking about this feeling of stuff that goes through you where you're defenseless. Like that hurt. You know, not the feeling of that you can let things pass through you when it feels fine. Like where you kind of feel overwhelmed. And that can be sound or whatever. Or you try to push kids on the stroller in Manhattan in the winter and the cars. They're on the car level and just like the honking, the anger and the anxiety that comes at you. And like just this kind of feeling of overwhelming and how everything passes through you. You know, like you are the sum of all this.

1:16:28You're only part you and you're a lot of other parts. So I wanted to make a sculpture that embodies this as a thing. So I had the first idea was I have a horse with a carriage as something that I need to protagonist. And it's a bit technical. I wanted to protagonist that implies movement and not object. So it's a horse and I like the horse and the carriage because it was very light. It's not like a heavy object that sits on the ground because it's kind of it's lifted up into the air. The horse and the carriage would have been pierced by about 30 things. And so these 30 things the biggest one was a hospital bed.

1:17:19And that came from, you know, because I spend next to somebody that was laying in a hospital bed. So like 10 days, you know, not really sleeping, just making sure they're okay. And you look at this kind of weird thing that a lot of people come in and out of the world on this kind of strange machine. The massages and ways and folds and I don't know what it does. But I thought that's definitely the needs to be part of it. Then I wanted to make the things of me scan all these objects, carriages this. And it became just too big and too expensive to do. And then I started, I just took the horse and the hospital bed and I combined them.

1:18:03And they looked like they want to belong together. And it's all one body. You see, it's like made out of, I mean, it's multiple parts. It's all male, the luminous. So it's a carving. So they become one. How do you make something like this? You scan everything and then you have to texture it and then. When you're scanning it, are you scanning it from images or from, what are you, three dimensional things? So I bought a bed like this. We take it apart, be like scan, laser scan, a physical object. Yeah. And then you put it together digitally. And then you reproduce it. And then you reproduce it. This we need to mention here for all the leverage and weight.

1:18:48And this is milled out of an aluminum that this doesn't oxidize. So that's like a special type of alloy. And then I didn't want any seams. So there's just little hairlines and some parts are pretty insane too. And then it bugged me that I didn't make that carriage thing. But I didn't want to use the horse. And then I made a version where it's not one thing. Just back to what you asked earlier. If you come back to an idea where you have multiple objects. So where you have more let -hold experience of all these things that look, they fly. Like nothing touches the ground. But it's a trick with the gravity, but it stands on the ground.

1:19:28It's almost like a series of arrows sticking out of an atom. Yeah, it's like a center of the arrow. One's a laptop and one's a chair. One of the big printers. Yeah. It's just like a selection of random shit. There you go. When you're digitally composing it, do you move the objects around? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a little here, well there till I think it looks good. Yeah. You can move around it when you're building it. Oh, yeah, yeah. 3D rendering. Yeah. So it seems like technically you get to learn about a lot of materials and how to make stuff. And there's a lot that goes into this beyond this is a cool looking object now.

1:20:14It's pretty intense technically. And there is even a level where I don't understand much about if engineers of how you crane that up and how you interlock all that stuff. Does the fact that it's difficult to build is that ever daunting? Or is it ever getting away of execution? It does, but it also gets in the way of being economical about it all. Yeah. Because I have a hard time. If it costs too much, you can't even try to do it. Yeah. You find a way. I find a way. Usually it works out, but it's like it's not an economical way of going about anything. It's really kind of somewhat bit extremist.

1:21:02Yeah. Or obsessive or whatever. Do you think that the place impacts your work? Either the place you live or the place you are when you're making something? Yeah, I'm teamed. I wouldn't know how. Yeah. Or in some of it, you know how? In some of it, you don't, I couldn't totally understand how. No place matters so much, you know? And also who you work with. Yeah. One place, I think that matters almost most is what kind of feedback you get on body do. And there can be a dialogue with a friend. There can be a bit more of bigger excitement. Like you feel people are excited by something that don't even.

1:21:47Like my dream is always the merry things where you don't have to know the artist. It's just people encounter something weird and awesome that stimulates them whatever form. And the work does the job. Yeah. That can feel good when you have a moment like that. Just working in a vacuum and not knowing where things go is something I cannot do. I always work for a show, a purpose, a place. Otherwise, I don't see the reason to make it. So the things right now, what are you working on right now? A furniture. And what's the purpose of it specifically?

1:22:40What is the purpose of anything? I don't know. The purpose is, I was asked if I want to make a furniture show, I love furniture. And will it be used as furniture? Yeah, I told it. And it's just like it's an interest in there because when you're not from a place like, let's say, I think this is why I understand it right in architecture of design. There have so much history on how it's made and this and that. And then so they think this way, if you just do something, you're kind of pretty free. Yeah. And it doesn't need to make sense. It needs to, you know, it comes more from the fact that the physical object, there is only one place on earth, like the pen you have in your hand.

1:23:25There is only one, this space that's occupied by that pen is occupied by that pen. Or whatever, that tree. And if you think of sculptures, they kind of clutter places in some way, which is some part I really don't like about the field of work. I mean, that we use up a lot of space. Yeah, it takes up space. Yeah, instead of an idea or an image or a song, there is no space to it, which is beautiful, you know. So in that, I just thought, like, let's say I have a whole bunch of sculptures. They're all in storage, not my own work, other people's mostly in storage, because my house is kind of small.

1:24:08And I don't want to expand it and I don't, I don't see no purpose having it in the house. But I do love furniture and if it's comfortable, and if it's fun, yeah, it's functional, it'll work in your life and you get to be around it. Yeah, it looks cool. Like some of it looks cool. For example, one is this human figure. It was more underachnist. Now it became a more female figure. So this thing, just a little context, that that's about 80 something inches. That's a little taller than a human. And it's all out of foam. And this will be coated covered. But this is the foam. So you can actually sit on the arm.

1:24:53I see. You can sit on the figure. You can sit on all parts. So it's a sculpture that works as a piece of furniture. Yeah, this one. Then other ones are sometimes more conservative. That's really cool. How have you worked first noticed? I studied some photography stuff, you know, like more in the arts and crafts type school, you know. And I always got really into the project. And then we had some people teaching there or like, you know, somehow. That gave me some feedback. You see the people react or whatever. And then usually with, let's say I went to the school in Amsterdam and there is other artists there and you do something and they.

1:25:45And you see, you see, you see, you see, like, you get some feedback. It's a very small notice, but it's kind of it gives you something and. It usually all came through other artists primarily in the beginning. Was there a breakthrough moment? Was there a time where it's like, now it's different than it was before? Yeah, that was one moment. I did my, I was maybe 20, one or something. I did my first show in a gallery. Because in Amsterdam? No, that was in Zurich. The show was in Zurich. And after I had that show, I was not the same as the other kids I hung out because you're the one that has a little success.

1:26:24So that's the biggest thing. The biggest change I know this ever was you're the kind of now one of those. Was it how they looked at you or how you looked at yourself that changed? How I felt being looked at, I mean, what do I know, it's assumptions of who they are, you know, but. Yeah. How I felt I'm looked at or seen. You stop being a little bit you and you're perceived a little bit as. The somebody who will make something. Would you say gave you more confidence or not necessarily? No, it made me insecure for a while. All right, I really didn't know how to felt alienating. Yeah. I mean, you know, you also kind of, you know, sometimes you are.

1:27:14Just you and in some context, you are you as the person who makes XYZ. I'm a total piece with both of that. By now, yeah, it's not conflicting. Yeah. When does a piece of work go from an experiment to a finished piece? At what point in the process? On a good day.

1:27:38On a good day is when you don't know what to add anymore. Yeah. And on a bad day, it's just. Give up. You kind of give up a bit on it. Just like, I'm sorry. That's as good as you get, you know. Yeah. I don't have it in me today and I don't want to continue tomorrow. Tell me how the art business works. I mean, I have a lot of experiences. I'm not capable of telling you how it works. But one thing is, why does one need to own something? You know, why do you want to own this or that? And there are people that. I met few. Where I really understood what collecting means. And that's not buying stuff to put in your house.

1:28:37Like some people can be very obsessive. They have thousands of things. And they know everything about each piece and each context. And they're like so knowledgeable. And they basically tell the story. That's really the audience. Essentially. No, that's not the audience. That's just part of, I think, what created this art market. I see. Is these people, you know, like they tell a story. I know, for example, there's different people. But like somebody like Bruno Beyshevberger, who was the guide, it was always on the cover, a back cover of the art forum, you know, like a person that's been around from the 60s to now.

1:29:22And I was an older man, old man. But they collected so many things, 10 ,000 of things. And every conversation I have with Amy just tells me all these stories about whatever, like from some folk art in some 17th century to whatever. And he knows everything. I think he's the copied. And he puts it together. And he started with a lot of things that then later became very desirable or collected. He started so many things early, you know. And I mean, the whole conversation is just this thing. This and then he did only this and then that artist. And you know, it's like it's a bizarre amount of information and knowledge.

1:30:09And I sometimes help hanging shows. And there was one collector. He collects only things that happened in New York. And he does that since the mid 60s. So basically he is like a, I always think of him as a fisherman that goes to the shore. And you just see a little ripple. And you think, OK, I go there. And some other things can be very loud. You know, such as noise because he has so much discipline and experience and real passion. So he hangs works. Obviously, OK, I put one work here and one work there says, well, in 1987, this work was hanging next to that thing. And that's how it was first shown by the art.

1:30:56Like a really in depth knowledge. So how that matters with the art market, I think there were always people that had a kind of a knowledge and a kind of search. And the way I imagine you see these things in somebody's house and it's kind of awesome. I want that too. You know, the prices of some of these things is absurd. You know, I make no sense because he don't actually get a physical value. And for any, you know, it's like, what is it? Mungo painting worth. Like a little bit of wood, some really old canvas and like you get nothing. So it is just what somebody is willing to pay for it, basically.

1:31:43And the fact that there's a market around it. And there's a market around it. And in a way that these figures in this market or whatever, like some being like back to vungo, everybody knows what that is. So you put it in your house. It's also you have a vungo in your house. And historically you did well with these kind of people out one 40 years ago. You did a good deal. So you don't lose anything. You have something to look at. So some investment that holds its value. And potentially. How these prices came in the last 20 years or 30 years or maybe starting in the 80s or something. And I'm not totally notable then.

1:32:25It is not old stuff. It's new stuff that is made to say this is going to be a potential future artifact of value. It's a bet. Yeah. But then I had a phase where I collected. So I was hooked. Tell me about that. How did it start? What was the first piece you bought? Well, you know, first I traded with friends of mine always. And then you hang it in your house and then I started buying the galleries that I worked with. And you go in some office and see this thing and that thing. And you have one and then you want more of that same artist. And then you want the ones you got. And then the other ones will be better.

1:33:07So you think you need to have those two and from there on it goes. And then you have hundreds of things. And you're like, I don't know what to do with it. Yeah. You know, one way what I felt at that time was I'm a high end hoarder. Yeah. You're a hoarder of interesting valuable things, but you still know the last year of hoarder. I read that you once had a gallery lower the ceiling for your show. Sounds like what people say. I don't remember. I got kind of out of that vibe. But what would be the reason for it? Tell me the thinking whether you would do it or not now is less the point. It's all about making the work look good.

1:33:59Or and that's always in context, you know, I mean, if you put the thing in the right context, it can actually unfold and be itself, you know, it can become something, you know. And like let's say a wall is very tall and you have a smaller thing in front of it. Hanging on it, I say it will just fly like it will feel lost. The work will be dwarfed by the height of the wall. Yeah. You know, that's another thing. Like it's totally bizarre. Like, okay, in my field of work, the galleries are ginormous. Yeah. But people's homes are not as big as the galleries. No, and people start, some of our artists do these are ginormous.

1:34:42And then they make like me included ginormous things. But what's the freaking point here, you know? It's just the context. I mean, because you, if you make a show somewhere here, this is the way it looks right or feels right. But then what are you going to do with it after? You know, it's like, I don't totally clock the whole thing. Tell me the feeling that when you've worked on something in rendering, and let's say you know, the final version is going to be 40 feet tall. Yeah. What's it like the first time you see the 40 foot version? I only see mistakes in there. Yeah, you only see what's wrong.

1:35:23Yeah. Your breath has never taken away with, wow, look at that. It's happened a few times, but on average it's, what's wrong? My God. And the things that you're seeing and saying, my God about that are wrong, probably no one else would notice. No, oh, I would know this even on somebody else's. Yes, exactly. But I always think like if something is unfinished or there is a mistake, if somebody really wants to find a mistake, let them have one. It's kind of, we got to reward the people that need to find the mistake. And that's kind of how I trick myself into getting over it. Yeah, who's to say what's a mistake, you know?

1:36:12You can tell an insecurity in something. Yeah, I mean, this is a mistake, no, but one will call a mistake. It's just, you know, sometimes this was a shortcut or like, not didn't go all the way. Are you always working? Yes. But to me, it makes no difference. I can bake a cake or I can, I just always need to do something. Yeah. Maybe done in multimedia work. Very little. Ever film. I made the film when I was like 2021, something. Who said a good experience? I liked it. I was just broke after because I financed it myself. I was broke for like half a year after that. And then I had that film and I didn't know what to do with it.

1:37:06Yeah. It was interesting, like, you know, the whole process. But I'm not a moving image person, I believe. I think moving image is one thing I could do that. I don't like narratives. I mean, I like them okay. Yeah. It's not your thing. Yeah, no. Even to watch. I have, the longer the more, harder time watching TV or movies or something. What are the things that you find comforting watching? Really mindless. Can be okay. Like, that's almost the form of meditation to me. Like, you know, your empty brain, it's not easy to be depressed. Like, it's just really like just nothing here. I watched recently something of what they call adolescents or something.

1:37:59It was short. Like a mini series five episodes on Netflix, waiting by one of the main actors.

1:38:12And it's not fun to watch. But each episode is filmed. So you have a story of this one act by one son in a family. At the lesson. And how it affects the family. And it's like, first, you're like one day after or a few hours after that thing. It's always real time. So the whole episode is filmed in one shot. So it is like a play. You go in a car and you go there. So they rehearse and then the emotions go up and down. You go in it. And so then your three days after, then you are like three months after, then you are. Well, that were a year after and a year and a half after. So that was really smart.

1:38:59Like, you watch it and you're like, I didn't read what it is. Yeah. And the nearest is shop never ends. That's a more technical thing, but just the emotions, the range. And it was really felt like substantial, like experience. And that somebody can put that as an entertainment, like this kind of thing. A lot of respect for that. What's the most beautiful place you've ever been? It's by or at the sea or ocean. That I know. But then I have a lot of many choices. Yeah. Name a couple that you like. I had really beautiful times in Greece. The water or the sun setting by the water or like this is kind of colors.

1:39:48They're very different and smells are different than. Yeah, if you hear this sometimes in the Caribbean, there is a kind of a. On place of being this smoothness to the water and the wind and also the light. The temperature kind of not fluctuating much. And I mean, that works for me, you know. Yeah. And some islands when the anxiety is far away. Yeah. And tell me something that you believe now that you didn't believe when you were young.

1:40:23That life is way crazier than anything. Somebody can imagine, like in, in where everything goes since I'm a kid, you know. And the other thing is peace that you can find some form of peace within yourself or love, you know. Like how that feels. Who's there, how many young we dated, you would ever feel those? Yeah, I grew up with a lot of anxiety, not only my own, but like everybody around me and. Or in my case, I definitely mistook anxiety for love. Because that's kind of what you grow up with. And it's not that you can have both for somebody, but it's like when it comes in a fused package, it kind of I'm.

1:41:11Confusing. It's confusing to extract the anxiety and then just have to love and to kind of let that be. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. What do your parents like? They're very nice people, you know, they were, I don't think they were good parents, but they were, they're very nice people. Yeah. You know. And still around. I mean, my dad is now Alzheimer's and it's going, you know, like that kind of stuff. But two people that didn't had easy lives in a lot of, a lot of family dramas and stuff, hard times. They kind of carried all that with them into their young relationship. And when they stayed together all their life, they're still together, you know, 50, whatever years, 80 or something like that.

1:42:09And the last time you're in Zurich, about a month and a half ago, the visit then, yeah. Has changed a lot since you were growing up? Yeah. In what ways? Like most cities just cleans up somehow and a lot of the kind of funky, interesting stuff fades away or gets replaced or everything needs to make enough money. Oh, there's no happy old cafes anymore. They're all kind of new and look the same than any other. Like that kind of part I miss, I miss old rotten facades and buildings and, you know, white fillet wall. You would love New York in the 70s. Yeah.

1:42:56It's not like that anymore. No, it's crazy. I mean, that place really changed so much from unbelievable.

1:43:09And that's the most beautiful place in the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:43:21Yeah.

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