Whitney Cummings

25:30The teams are neighborhoods. So it's brothers against brothers and cousins against uncles. And, you know, so there's heart there. There's the scoops. I'm always looking for what's going to give people goosebumps. It is a comedian I got to go, okay, what can I learn from that thing that gives scoops? months. But when that event happens, violence goes down to zero in the city of Florence, which is a pretty rough city for us. So I'm fascinated when you go online, you can see these world star videos. You see all these like murder videos, you know, like all this crazy, like the guy that was just killed the snap, the cash app founder.

26:04And then on the news, they showed the surveillance video and like, why would you even, it's like a snuff film, you know, And you would think, oh, this is going to be catharsis for humans, because that's what happens in many places when you see it live, but I think when you see it digitally, it actually desensitizes us. Do you feel that as a society we've become more just desensitized given what we have access to? Absolutely. You can't help it. You can't help but become desensitized. I can remember the first time I saw a really gratuitously violent movie who was before my first year of high school.

26:38So whatever age that is, and I remember seeing it in a theater and Where zombies people would make up we're getting people in Venice, California zombies getting their heads blown apart and it was shock really graphically and He was called day of the dead It was the last of this series of dead movies, but anyway, I went see it in a as a midnight movie and a lot of kids were going to see it so I went see it and And people in the theater were standing up and cheering when the people were getting blown apart. And it was just so bizarre. I remember thinking like, this can't be good. That's a comedian brain.

27:19That's a comedian brain of, you know, everyone's watching football having the best time. And I'm like, how many concussions is that? You know, or I'm just going, oh God, this guy, but he's, this guy is only in for two years. When you do two, you don't get that much. But the other side of it is, I'm fine that it exists. You know, I'm not into shutting things down. I like that we get to make our choices and do what suits us. I make my choices and I want you to make your choices. And if they're not same, that's great. Of course. For me, it's important to know what's going on. I don't have a judgment about it, but I just go as someone whose job it is to comment on culture and comment on humanity.

27:56I need to feel this, witness this. I never feel like I'm participating in society since I was a kid. I always felt like I was a fly on the wall, like an anthropologist. I just always, and I felt like I was invisible. I think being neglected so much as a kid, I was kind of, and I would move through the world just staring at people, observing people. It's not even a choice, just to feel like you're observing, not participating. Yeah, I just never felt like I was part of anything and just outside of everything watching and observing and trying to understand. Which is so, because so much of it didn't make sense to me.

28:34So that's sort of a core. I wanted to ask you about your source. You talk about on page 15 of your book about your source and figure out what your source is or cultivating it. For me, most of mine are embarrassing. You know, do you feel like your source in a lot of ways? Like did it start there? Just trying to figure out why adults behaving like this? I kind of would go, we went to church and it would say love people and then at home I wouldn't see love. And I couldn't, and I had to figure out how we went from this to this as a kid. that you're always trying to make sense of. I would, this nun, who's my teacher, who's teaching me about love and kindness, then wit me with a ruler.

29:10Like I couldn't, you know, I'd figure out, and then I'd think in movies, oh, magical spells. Maybe a spell was put on her. You know, I would turn it into some creative thing that would exonerate the adult from any responsibility, because I guess I couldn't handle that there was evil in the world, you know? So I think that's maybe a lot of what my source comes from is to go, I feel this obligation to alchemize negativity in the world or alchemize bad behavior into something positive. And that's I think what turns into being devil's advocate or a contrarian later in life of, you know, I just saw, you know, a famous man be violent with his wife in a video online and everyone's like, this is awful.

29:52And of course, I'm like, I just want to know what she said. The second before you smell like, I just want to know what she said, I'm not saying this is right, but you know, there could be that one thing a woman can say to her husband and public that just makes him go there. You know, of course, not condoning it, but it's a comedian. I always want to defend the indefensible. And that's part of my source. Have you ever said something to someone that made them want to strike you? You know, I was a boss of many, many people way older than me when I was very young. I I think just, you know, I think we can beat that joke to a male comedy writer who've been who wrote on Friends and Cheers and all these amazing shows and then I'm 27 running a sitcom about what I do and thinking or go like, oh, I've heard that before.

30:44That doesn't feel fresh. I learned you kind of can't say that to people. There's a better way to say it, but at the time, I think that the kindest way to speak to anyone is just directly and honestly because I was lied to so much as a kid and the There was so much like sort of sugar coating shit and it just confused me. You know, I was diagnosed with autism and Asperger's and all this stuff and I was always just so confused but I think people are also adults are confusing. They're like always tell the truth and then they're like there's this magical bunny that when Jesus his risen leaves magical eggs and I'm like, no, I feel like this isn't true.

31:17I think kids kind of know everything and they can enter into letting the adults bullshit them but if the adult doesn't really sell it, like if you grew up in a home that's poor and they're trying to sort of, you know, have these traditions work. It's like Santa Claus is coming and then the next morning it would just be like ash trays from around the house wrapped up. It would be like, this is shit from our house. Like Santa didn't come in and wrap a bar shit, you know? So I think like, you know, I think as a kid, you're really just, if your parents are gonna lie to you, that's a big thing. I think about that a lot.

31:50Like, you know, I think this part of the reason I became a comedian and because I went on stage to be like, is this normal? And then people will laugh and I'll go, okay, I'm not crazy. That's a big part of what comedians do. You know, that's why there's the live element to it. My parents did this and this and everyone laughs. And so that's when you, okay, they've gone through this also. I'm not just like losing my mind. Your sitcoms in front of an audience? Yes, sir. Both. Yes, both in front of an audience. Can you imagine doing comedy that's meant to be digested to be funny with no audience there?

32:20Is it, how can you do it? You can't. I mean, we saw it during the pandemic, I make people doing Zoom shows and stuff and Godspeed to anyone that needed to make money doing experimental things at that time. Like how do they even do it for a movie? How can a movie be funny if there's no audience? You know, for me, I always say that in a way, a movie, the crew, I mean, it's tricky because these are people that are on payroll, but you do a rehearsal and the crew's allowed to laugh in the rehearsal. I always say, crew, please laugh. No one's gonna get in trouble. You know, so there's no Weinstein production.

32:49You can laugh, you can be humans. And for me, making the crew laugh is the best thing ever. So to me, the live studio audience is almost a little bit of just a cheat. The live studio audience are excited to see you. They know you. They're coming to a taping. They're already primed to laugh, which is part of the reason people think sitcoms feel so fake, which is something I do want to talk about. You put in here Lars von Trier's list of how to combat artificiality on page 210, which I was just like, well, in sitcoms, that's, you know, it's in a way. it's the art is leaning into the artificiality of it because it's three walls, you know, with no roof.

33:25And there's an audience there. And I got very lucky that I discovered Jean -Bauderard when I was a mid -sort of teenager. Again, another thing that probably right now, we look back and say, was unfortunate for me, but I actually like, think gave me an advantage in life was that I dated I grew up at a time where that was okay, where it was normal, where my parents encouraged it. In the south, I don't know if it's a southern thing or what, I can only speak for my experience, but it was okay, if you're a 15 year old girl, what's worse, dating a 15 year old boy who's just gonna be playing video games and smoking weed and telling all his friends about, showing them photos of you naked or dating a guy who's 30, who has a car and can get you dinner and pick you up from school.

34:13Like, you know, so I also feel lucky that I discovered books that I wouldn't have discovered otherwise. And, you know, I dated a guy that ran, had a subway franchise, and I got to go with him to his work. I mean, it's weird looking back. Like, yeah, that was too young. And, you know, I grew up very fast. You would say, in DC, you know, grew up going to the 930 Club. But looking back for getting the story associated with it, for you, it was a good experience. I didn't feel traumatized. I think for me, in this moment, that everyone is really, you know, trauma survivors, so many women, you know, the statistics, are impossible to ascertain.

34:47Let's be honest, of women and boys that have been molested or sexually assaulted. Sexual assault doesn't always mean physical, in a church pew, something, you know, it can be, you know, I had a stepmother who, you know, used drugs, and she walked around naked a lot. She was just naked a lot. My dad went and saw sex workers. I'm very proud of him, though, actually, for paying for sex. That's, you know, when he cheated. And I would see these naked women. I would see very sexual situations very young. And I was abused. So by the time I was 15 and a guy just wanted to take me to dinner and yes, I'm sure it was creepy on his part because I wasn't particularly emotional mature.

35:28But I was smart. Like I look back and I was like I was very studious because I, you know, was forced into modeling very young and I was always very insecure that I wasn't smart. And so I would like just read the dictionary, just be like, because I heard models are stupid. And if you're pretty, you're stupid. And I was like, okay, if I'm a model, I must be pretty, but it wasn't even that. I had such bad eating disorders. I was so skinny that I was a fit model. So you just stand there and they so close on you. And they make sure your thighs are allowed to touch. It's kind of the main thing. And then I'd have so much time on my hands.

36:00I was like, I don't wanna do this forever. like this is so boring, so much of my creativity and drive comes from the fear of being bored and the fear of being embarrassed. I'm curious, do you ever think it's okay to channel these fears, these negative things instead of trying to, because a lot of people are, let me heal this fear. I'm like, I don't want to heal it. I want to keep the fear, but just know how to use it, like a magic wand when I need it. I would say you can heal it and still use it. Hmm. That sounds expensive. Sounds like it takes a lot of work, but it's worth it. You talk in here about addiction, sort of towards the end.

36:43It's interesting because I always feel like people's first question is like, do you have to be broken in order to be creative and you kind of bury the lead and put it later in the book? But have you seen artists? Obviously don't name names who you felt like leaned on their brokenness, had to for whatever reason get sober, healed, and then the art got better. Because I was absolutely. I was like to show proof. Absolutely, absolutely. Happens all the time. And I can remember when I was young, again, I don't remember specifics, but I remember if someone asked me about something and I talked about something, sometimes I'll remember that.

37:18So if I was trying to remember how I felt, I won't remember how I felt. But if someone asked me how I felt then, I might remember that conversation. So I remember being interviewed for an English magazine right in the beginning. First couple of albums came out, had a lot of success, right, from the beginning. And one of the questions was, you have any concerns that whatever drive you have that has made the things that you've made so good and successful will go away in success, because it happens for a lot of people when they get successful, they can't do it anymore. And I remember saying, I remember my answer was whatever that's, whatever's wrong with me is so deep -seated that no amount of success is going to have anything to do with it.

38:06I knew it. Wow. Because I see these artists, these days, and I see comics and I see them, you know, they're I have an anxiety disorder and I'm anxious and that's a comedian, honey. I don't, and I say honey, on purpose because we don't have human resources and comedy because, and I want you to get used to it. I get used to sexual harassment now. But when I get lost creatively, I now just read your book because this is my new Bible and I'll get into the granular things in a second. But I think about the role of a comedian in history. And that helps me remember how important this job is. At times, or I want to go, I'm not carrying cancer, there's a war in the Ukraine.

38:50You saw it, you know, comedians we've oscillate between having this delusional confidence of I deserve to speak for two hours. And when I do, you have to pay me. You have to pay me money. And if you utter the tiniest word, security, we'll remove you to I'm such a piece of shit, like, you know. But the narcissist against security, I'm a piece of shit in the center of the universe. But I think about the role of the court jester, that was in Europe though, stand up as uniquely American invention like rap. So I look at, okay, the court jester's job was to not only deliver bad news to the king, like, hey, we lost the war.

39:28You know, I don't know how bells on the end of a sock chilled him out, but he probably had scurrying and all kinds of other shit, but it was also to, and I think that this is today, the comedian's purpose more than ever, is it was their job to try to make fun of the king to his face. And if the king didn't laugh, that meant that power had corrupted the king's brain. Because if someone can't laugh at themselves, they're sick. And I'll say that and, you know, there's something wrong with you if you can't laugh at yourselves. So this kind of debacle with, you know, Chappelle and trans people or, you know, certain people who say you can't make fun of them or they can't laugh at a joke about them.

40:06Even if it's not a good joke, you can just go like, oh, this just wasn't a good joke. But if a good one does come and you don't laugh, there's something going on with you if you can't laugh at yourself. But at the same time, you can also say, like, you know, certain people are not ready to do that and those people always existed. We just have never given them microphones before. But that was their job regardless of whether that's true or not. And then in America, immigrant coping mechanism and to lift up others to heal and then to send messages. So you know, I mean, you think of, and my mom just died, and I found out I'm half Jewish, which I always kind of knew.

40:42I'm surprised it's only half. But it's a lot of you see comedians going on stage, female comics. They talk about the pussy all the time, or I spent three specials talking about birth control and how it screwed up my brain and my ability to choose the right man because it makes you smell fair amounts differently. And then I went on this antidepressant, and this is what happened, and I got really bread migrates. So I knew I was doing it on some level, but I didn't realize I was following in this tradition of sharing sending warnings to people, to the masses, going, don't take this, you know, people got all over Joe Rogan about questioning the vaccine.

41:14That's what we do, you know, we've gone, hold on, hold on. Farmer's going to tell you to do this, the president's going to tell you to do this, but are they taking it? And then, you know, Ms. Pat, amazing comedian who, you know, grew up on food stamps who always said, don't eat the government butter, it'll choke you. Don't do this, you know, like, here's how to vote. Like, you know, so there's a big responsibility for a lot of comedians, or for me, I feel that a lot of comedians, that's kind of how we started in a lot of ways. And then, you know, Joan Rivers, like, she had millions and millions of jokes.

41:46She didn't have to go on Johnny Carson and say, I was born with a coat hanger in my ear. You know, they told her not to. But a big part of us is we're the ones that when someone tells us we can't do something, we want to do it even more strongly, because we just want to test the person that's in charge and make sure they're number one sane, and number two, have a reason for why they get to be in charge. And there's something about, you know, we have this childlike bratty -ness that I think is actually more adults should have.

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43:41What's so funny about the forbidden? Because it seems like that's what. So many jokes are about saying something that you're not allowed to say. the taboo. How does it work? How does it work? And I'll say this right now, which is, you know, not the popular take and maybe, you know, a magician revealing their tricks kind of thing, but this whole moment where everyone's like, comedians can't say anything like, PC culture's ruining comedy, not for good comics. Look, it's actually the best thing that's happened to comedy in years because there were no eggshells on the ground. Four or five years ago, you couldn't surprise anyone.

44:12Trump was the funniest person on the planet. You could hear Trump was funnier than any comedian, you know? He was so outrageous. Everyone was so disensitized. You would go on, your morning news was a p -tap. Trumped Pian on Stormy Daniel's face. He's calling Rosie O'Donnell a pig. I mean, he's just killing. The guy's killing. And we're just like, he said seven funny things before noon. And we're just over here like, hey, guys. And then comedians, the only way to even compete with Trump was to talk about him. But then you're talking about Trump. And then you have something, I did Trump's roast.

44:4714 years ago now, which was the beginning of his campaign. We realized at the time, but we didn't know at the time until his speech was after the roast. He went, this is what's wrong in America. Elites are beaten up on the, and we were like, shit, guys are genius. So this PC, you can't say this word, you can't say this word, I think it's been incredible for comedy. There's tension again. People come in and forget New York LA and San Francisco. Those aren't places that buy tickets to see comedians anyway. Like you said about why you feel so grateful. You grew up outside New York, you know, the people inside LA and inside New York.

45:18Like, they're not customers. I only think about customers. I like to back into it and go, what is someone paying money to see? You could see some, you could on YouTube, you can see a panda bear painting, a picture. There's why would you ever leave your house? I mean, there's people, there's germs, there's traffic, it's stressful. So it's like for someone to come see a show this day and age, like they must need something really bad. They must need what? To be shocked, to be surprised. It's very hard to surprise people. You know, so I think that we just, it's odd that this day and age, like, is a comedian, it's our job to be the person going, I don't know about that, I don't know about that, the negative person, but also I feel like being relentlessly positive is sort of my goal moving forward and letting people know, like, you actually don't need to worry about that.

46:03You actually don't, here's why, because I think that we're now competing with this fucking constant news cycle, where everyone is just like, yeah, phones are bad for kids. It's like, hmm, yes and no. You know what I mean? When's the last time you saw a kid in a cast? They don't get injured the way they used to. You know what I mean? Before phones, we were jumping off roofs and getting tires and rolling down hills and putting our fingers in a lake. You know what I mean? So anyway, I wanted to talk to you about this because what? Just find me. It's what you do. Which is you have to, every comedian's creative magic is has to be different because it's a partnership with the audience and it is so there's no comedy with that.

46:46There's no stand -up comedy without the audience. That's not what we do here. You know, I think it's a, you know, I've gone to these listening parties for musicians, you know, in LA sometimes they'll say, oh, there's a, you know, Kendrick's doing a listening party. You were like, 100 people can come listen to it and you're like, oh, you get there and do it and then you're kind of like, what if he hears something he doesn't like, or what if people don't respond the way he wants. I remember thinking like he can't go back and change it. I mean, to me, the magic of comedy is if one night you, it doesn't go how you want the next night, you've got another bite at the apple, you know, or you get to go back and rewrite, you get to change stuff and the idea that y 'all incubate, make it without - But it's like a special, I think of it more like a special.

47:30The album is the special. Do you ever worry though that you're so close to something that you don't know when to walk away because I let the audience decide. I don't have to decide. Yeah, I tried to stay far enough out of the process to not get sunk by it. Do you do the A B test? This is one of the most incredible creativity tools. I A B test all day every day. That's my life. So on, I think it's page 210. He talks about the A B test. If you're having trouble making a decision about something, I have done this in the last two weeks. It has changed my life. And so down to, should I date this person.

48:06Yeah, be so easy. I've been doing the coin toss test where you just toss a coin, which at first I went, what the fuck are you insane? I'm deciding whether I'm going to shoot a special or not. I'm going to decide whether, you know, I'm going to date this person or not. And the reason I bring that up is that very much so for a comedian, I think for everyone, who you date is a business decision. That's sad. Just not even so much as money or anything. Do they deplete you? Do they energize you? Do they discourage you from working on your art? Do they get frustrated if you go, I have to write that down.

48:37And they're like, oh, you're working. I see so many comedians not to say that that's not real love there who aren't allowed to talk about their wives on stage or their girlfriends. Like, it's more that. It's more, my whole life has to be on limits. Even if I don't end up doing it, I have to be able to write this joke about this moment, even if I end up cutting it. But if someone goes, you can't say that. In a relationship, I'm already like. Yeah, but then it's not the right person for you, but I don't think I think the reducing into business decision is that doesn't sound right. Maybe a better, better.

49:08Sometimes saying that helps, the way I talk to comedians is very different than I talk to like humans. We're fairly animals, like we haven't. We've either evolved too far, not far enough. Like when you say creatives, like we're either like, a little ahead or a little behind, I can't really tell. But this coin toss and I was like, okay, should I shoot this special this year? because in the vein of what my source is, a lot of my source is anger and a protective instinct to protect comedians. I want to say one thing about source because you're interpreting it differently than I think I explained it in the book.

49:44There's probably a different word besides source. This is how words fuck me. I think of source as the creative, generative energy of the universe. It's not us, the source is not us. We gather information, but whatever we gather is coming from the source, but it's not ours. So, well, I'm God. So, I guess, I'm like, but I am the universe. I'm only a narcissist who would interpret it that way. Yes. Well, I was sort of thinking about like channeling, because you sort of talked about like, you know, as being of service to God as you're creating, which has really helped me because I think there's such a narcissistic sort of engine, which I don't say that in negative.

50:27It's not about us. You know, it's personal and it's not about us. My art always gets better when it's about, I'm gonna make these people in Cleveland have the best night of their fucking life. It's not, I'm gonna make this much money. I'm gonna put this video on my Instagram as soon as I'm of service. You know, for me, like, people go, how did you get funny? I'm like, I was just trying to make my dad laugh. And then my dad had a stroke and went into, and he couldn't move. And so, I was trying to get him to smile when his face was paralyzed. And then I was trying to make people in LA laugh that had Botox.

51:04It's hard to do. You know what I mean? It's like, why are you laughing? I have to work twice as hard. I've got to get through Botox. So, but I just sort of went a step further, I guess, with the source thing going, like how to channel if I'm a service to God. But yeah, I guess what would you use is the word that's your motivation, your muse in terms of like, you know, because I think a lot of the motives that comedians have or that I have tend to be things that could be pathologized, but I actually think anger can be one of the best motivations. And I actually did your anger exercise. How was it?

51:41But before I, I want to finish, see, I told you, I was going to be all over the place, the coin toss test. Let's talk about the AB and then we'll talk about the coin. Let me explain. Explain AB. Okay. The AB is trying to reduce whatever choices you have in life, reduce it to a choice between two to start with. Now, there may be more out there, but start with two. Is it going to be red or is it going to be blue? It's as simple as that. On the libertarian. Whatever it is. And you look at your two choices. and usually when you get it down to two choices, and if you don't think past, what does it mean to anyone else?

52:19What's simple about what I'm talking about is there is no other concern other than what's going on in you. You're tasting two dishes at a restaurant and you're deciding, next time I come back, which one is the one I'm going to order? It's not a hard decision. You'd like one better than the other. We're tasting two versions of something. If you taste two versions, I like this one, I don't like this one. It's easy. I think our species, I think we kind of over evolved a little bit because our inability to keep things simple. Like if you asked someone a simple question like that, would you rather spend the weekend with your mom or your dad?

52:57Or what relative would you rather spend the weekend with? Even whettling it down will turn into, well probably my, that would upset my dinner. Like even trying to whittle it down. It's a different question. You're answering a different question. what you just said was like, oh, that would make so -and -so feel. I'm not asking what it would make so -and -so feel. Even trying to do the test makes me realize how cluttered... Yes. In a moment. It's such a simple thing. It's so simple. What do you like better? Period. It's so simple. And then I go, well, what would people want me to like? Doesn't matter.

53:29What should I like? It doesn't matter. That's not the question. None of those things matter. Those, all of those things get in the way with making the best thing you can make. And that to me, and I wrote down everything that was getting in the way of me just saying, trying to pick between two things. What would this person think? And then I go, that's the work I need to do. That's not what it is. It's not about them. It is not about them. What meal do I like better? Which one photographs better on for Instagram? It's just like, Jesus, like what? And then you gotta figure out all of those things, those obstacles that are stopping you.

54:05So let go of all of that. But I'm like, who's a voice was that? I don't know. My mom didn't let me eat certain food. Well, that's carbs, so I shouldn't have that. Who the fuck's voice was that? It's almost like in, you know, I'm in a 12 step program called ACA, which is just like nurturing your inner child when you grew up in a dysfunctional home. And it actually helped me when I was first trying to do the AB exercise to, there's a really powerful exercise with people that chronically deprive self -harm in, you know, with abusive relationships with substance abuse, with whatever it is, your name and to communicate with your inner child, it's obviously gonna take a little bit of, first you're like, the folk, this is dumb.

54:42Like, all right, when you can get past the ego of it, you write a question to your inner child and your dominant hand, and then you answer and your non -dominant hand. So as simple as, what do you wanna have for breakfast today? Me, I'm gonna go one egg, I'll snort athletic greens And then fast for seven days, you know. And then if I say to my inner child, what do you want for breakfast? The first time I did it, I cried for so long because she said, I'm peanut butter smiles, which is what my dad and I used to make, which was just a piece of bread with peanut butter and he'd make a smile with his finger and put honey in the smiles.

55:22Beautiful. And it was right there. just all I had to see was my hand writing non -dominant childlike and that's how quick you could get to it. So when I'm struggling sometimes with the decision I go do I want to do this 60 city tour and my little child's like no I'm like what do you want to do and she'll say play plant flowers and I'm like I guess that's what I'm doing this fall. Great and that's what the coin toss is like. The The coin toss is if you get down to a choice of two and you can't decide. If it's not obvious, if you taste two dishes and you don't know which one you like better and you can't decide, then you flip a coin.

56:06And when the coin is in the air, you listen to what's going on in your body to see which side are you rooting for to come up. It doesn't matter what the coin, where the coin lands. It's just we're using techniques to get out of our own way to understand what's going on inside of ourselves So what we really want this exercise holds a mirror. It's like our subconscious. It's like our subconscious gets to tell us What it wants when we don't have it on the surface of our conscious mind because we've I cannot believe before reading this book Even me like I kind of you know Rick Rubin wrote a book about creativity.

56:44This is for everyone. Oh, I mean this is for like, you know I've been doing this for a long time. I mean, what am I going to really find? And these simple exercises that just hold up a mirror to your inner monologue and the voices in your head that aren't yours. That are. And they're not on your side. They're not there to help. They're rooting to keep you the same. And they're rooting to keep you away from vulnerability. So I also have this war going on in my head back to the sort of one of the reasons I do this, which I was conflating with source, motive is protecting my pack, my wolf pack. So comedians, I see as my wolf pack, my brothers, and I see Chappelle just getting, he can handle it.

57:25He's fine, doesn't need me, but I think a lot of creativity for me at this point is going, what are other people talking about? And how can I talk about either the same thing in a different way to give the audience this Yin Yang or this bad, I'm seeing a lack of balance in the conversation. And I know how frustrating that is for people don't want this. People don't want this. No one's allowed to say this and these dorks on Twitter saying you're not allowed to say gender nonconforming. You have to, no one wants that. You know, for me, if I'm confused about what people want, I'm like, well, I'm going to Toledo, Ohio next week.

58:04None of them even know what's going on for the most part, but no one wants it, but I have this This compulsion to make things fair Which is why such a big part of my creative processes observing animal packs Who's going online watching hyenas watching paint like there's just a fairness in herds but what's happening should pal? I just feel is unfair and When something's unfair, I get the obsession with justice and that's where my creativity comes because I just go So let me write the premises in anger and the punchlines in peace. So that's where my anger really thrives, that serves me, but I can't write the punchlines in anger.

58:43Because then they won't be funny. It's just like a new process that you helped me kind of think about. But yes, I was like, should I shoot this special this year? Because it's mostly jokes that I was inspired by seeing this Sheppell drama. It's an hour about, you know, trans women and drag queens and all the stuff we're not allowed to say. And I'm like, how am I just doing this to get into controversy? Because I see so many comedians being controversial on purpose to like get in the algorithm or ride a wave. Like we talked about surfing earlier. Sometimes you see a zeitgeist wave and you go, maybe I should surf that one.

59:16There's already a lot of momentum here. Sebastian Manescalco. A lot of comedians were just waiting for the perfect wave that matches our skill set that's already going on in the zeitgeist. Jersey Shore comes along, Sebastian had been talking about his Italian family and this, you know, and then Jersey Shore happens and he just rode that wave perfectly. So I was like, do I ride this wave? Or am I being selfish? Am I coasting off someone else's drama? I never want to be that bitch. So I, as soon as I flipped the coin, I was like, I really want to shoot this special, the jokes are so good. Like, I really feel like this is like, good help people.

59:49And then I didn't even have to look at the rest.

59:54My biggest... We know But then I called Tim Dylan and he's like you got to do this. I'm like I'm trusting the coin Yeah, I'm not taking advice from anyone anymore because we already know you know you help us This helps us get out of our own way. Absolutely. I just had an epiphany which is that I need to spend a little bit less time with comedians most of my friends are comedians and you never have to ask them direct questions Because they'll just just talk and I went this is wild to talk to someone who's waiting for a question, whereas comedians, we just wildly, you share something and then you go, oh, they'll go, like, this is what inspired me and then comedians go, well, what inspired me was, like, you don't even have to.

1:00:38And I'm just like realizing that. And I think artists need to spend time with artists in different fields. Do you go out of your way to do that? Like, greatness in other fields? I like hanging out with people who are good at whatever they do. and it's interesting when they're not people who do music as well. What have you learned about comedy in the last year in your anthropological endeavors of us primitive age? I know if I've done a deep dive into comedy in the last year. You came to the roast writers room? Oh, I did come to the roast writers room. I would love to see that. That was a really interesting experience, was nothing like what I expected.

1:01:16What did you learn about coming in and listening to a bunch of scumbag writers trashing each other in a safe space. It was odd how performative it was. Yep. I didn't, wasn't expecting that. Mm -mm. It felt like the whole thing was a performance. So Rick Rubin who just said, walking into a writer's room with a bunch of comedians, which we're not, we're the opposite of rappers. We have no self -esteem whatsoever. People didn't even care enough about us to shoot at us. You know what I mean? We weren't even worth the bullet. So Rick Rubin comes in, which his signature being barefoot, comes in barefoot.

1:01:56And again, I do think there is this co -fascination with music and comedy, whereas most comedians don't look up to comedians, we look up to musicians. And a lot of musicians, rappers come up to me, and they're like, oh, God, I could never do what you do. And we're like, what? We're obsessed with you. There's this co -fascination. And so when you came in, had you been, you know, Dave Chappelle or Chris Rock or, you know, John Stewart, we'd be like, hey, re -tard, put some shoes on, you know, like, but you came in and I could feel, I already knew the difference that my presence was making in the room, because I was the boss that got to decide what went in and I just turned into daddy, daddy, mommy, mommy.

1:02:34And then you came in and it was already, it's already performative without you there, But I could, there was just this reminder of these rough people that are saying all the rough shit, we're like, I hope Rick Rubin likes me. And your eyes were closed and I remember malding to them. He can't see. He doesn't know which one of you was saying what. So just stop it. Stop it. You know what I mean? And then after you left, I remember thinking, you know, because everyone was trying so hard to be like so funny and felt very, you know, we're performing a writer's room. And even though we come off as these rough people, we just want to be loved and we want to be perfect and you've talked about in your book, like there is no such thing as perfection, but like the coin flip exercise, is there any value in chasing this elusive perfection, but knowing, you know, like Displacivo effect work, if you know what's a placebo, don't know.

1:03:36Yes, it will work. Do you think there's value in chasing perfection? Knowing it doesn't exist. Absolutely. That's what we do. It's like we want it to be as good as it could be. Whatever that is. Perfection is a funny word, but we want it to be the best it could be. And if we use the word perfect, perfect is not necessarily the best it could be. Right, right. Right. Perfect is like, boring. Perfect is mechanical. It's machine -like. It's not so interesting. And people look at these quote perfect, you know, I've had a robot made and they are creeped out by it.

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1:05:47We're attracted to the humanity in things, the difference between things. And something being perfect creates this pressure. Like, you know, it could break. It could, you know, you talk about in your book and it's a different term in your book. The Japanese philosophy, Wabi Sabi, that something is actually more valuable if it's been weathered, aged, broken, but I'm saying. Sugey. It's called. But that's what it's the gold this when there is a break in a bowl gilding the break. Yeah, they repair the break with a strip of gold and you see it forever. Instead of trying to hide the break, they make the break a feature.

1:06:27And it also gives you a sense of your reminded of its history. It gives it a story. It gives it age. It gives it a story. And this This new, gold stripe is the strongest part of the new version of this pottery. Something that I like to say that's because sometimes people, I realize different brains need different things. You do an incredible job in your book of writing in a way that even, you know, that, in the people that I've given it to, to read it, everyone is able to, you know, I sometimes give books to people on creativity, even the world of art. People are like, I don't, you know, some people's brains need different kinds of metaphors.

1:07:03like you always just say the perfect thing like so clearly and I would say the most intelligent people are able to make things simple You know again, I'm getting to your point of how to make those magic moments. No one's taken out of the spell He knows how to not break the spell by saying and then I Destracting as such he's not showing off Whereas in some great music you're like holy shit like Lil Wayne just use the word to fenestrate Like I would have just that throw out the window, you know or you know It's why we call it a window pane. You know where you're able to sort of over -complicating things, sort of part of the like, oh shit, like that feeling you got.

1:07:43But let me, I'm going to ask you a couple direct questions. Because I keep thinking you're going to be the malignant narcissist, chatterbox, verbal diarrhea monsters I normally talk to. And I've already gotten the concept of, even if you get the concepts wrong, they still help you. Thinking, my source, now I have two versions of it. On page 65 you talk about dreams. Can I ask you talk about keeping a dream journal, how important that is. I started doing it since I read your book. Mine looks more like a suicide note right now, but when did you start keeping a dream journal? I did that experiment probably 20 years ago and kept it up for probably a year.

1:08:20And it was fascinating, more fascinating in retrospect than when it was happening. When it was happening, the dreams made no sense to me. they all were the surreal Dalaias stories. Everyone was different, had no idea what they were about. And then when I look back on it years later, they all were about exactly what was going on in my life. They were all the same. The stories weren't the same, but what they, they were different versions, different interpretations of something that was going on from different perspectives. But I was too close to see it. Whoa, so it's like you're subconscious. It's like, you know, you say in the book, which I thought was so beautiful, and I'm gonna put you exactly how you set it.

1:09:02It's, you know, this book I really believe that it's sometimes all we need, you know, I think is one person we really respect to say the exact thing we need to hear in the right way for our brain to receive it. Right now there's this, you need to go to therapy for 10 years and you need to go on this pill for 12 years. It's like right now I think a lot of people stand again a lot from convincing people that it takes a long time to change a long time to heal. Some things will take a long time to heal, but that's also a self -limiting belief, you know, for me, like getting molested, getting abused as a kid.

1:09:34I was like, well, I can't even deal with that. I'm just going to have to cope with it and deny it and just be angry forever. And then I went to this meditation wasn't taking for me because sadness would come up. And I was like, oh, gotta get out of this. I didn't want to cry. I just wanted to stay kind of in this push it down, push it down and comedy's a great way to do that and work a holism's a great way to do that. But then I went to this meditation class, George Hoss, who his meditations, he'll start with these forgiveness meditations where you just say, I forgive you, you forgive me, I forgive myself.

1:10:06Beautiful. And you know, so I turn in this walking meditation where I just started forgiving people. And when I heard an ACA, like we forgive others, not because they deserve forgiveness, because we deserve peace. Like I was able to forgive my abusers and they, it was over. That's all I I needed forgiveness was at least for me all I needed. Amazing. And I was like, done. For me, I think I just felt on a very, like, maybe like a Darwinian instinct that holding on to this anger was gonna kill me. And it was, you know, being angry I think is just such an incredible tool, but if it's not used as one, if it's just a default state, it's gonna limit you as an artist and I felt like my first special, I was just angry at men.

1:10:51all men. And then all women are like this because of two or three people. And I was punishing millions of comedy fans for something a couple people did 30 years ago. So I think you have to figure out it helps me with what I make to go, how do I back into it? How do I want the audience to feel when they leave here? You know, I want them to be belated. I want them for the entire time they were here to have thought about nothing else. I want them to not check their phones once. They didn't even want to accept maybe take a picture or something. Like I get these I put these like goals in my head. These impossibly high goals because I think that impossibly high goals.

1:11:35There's not a lot of competition there. But like high goals, there's a lot. Did you ever when you started? Did you have goals? Like did you, you didn't have a vision board? Nothing. Never had any goals. I don't work that way at all. I feel like from the conversations we've had Our experience in the world are almost polar opposites The way we see the world and the way we work in the world approach. Yeah, I'll have to read in this book I mean I'm in to me. I'm going okay. I want to take I think that your essence your ethos can be so like I'm never gonna be able to get that to that be that peaceful.

1:12:17It's so much simpler. What I'm doing is so much simpler. I think you want to figure it out. Always. And I know it's not noble. And you write that in that's the difference. You write it in the because artists, is this such a big part of your magic as a producer? I mean I've talked to many people before talking to you. And a lot of the artists said, he lets you spin your wheels, then just validates your reality. And then it's like, great, do you want to sing it? Or, you know, you want to put that, like, why are you telling me? Let's do it. Put it there. Yeah. Because do you think that artists, like, with what you're witnessing with me, there's this need to be understood or need to understand?

1:13:04And the ultimate freedom in life is to know we never will. I think the ultimate freedom in life is to know we never will. That's the reality. And I know from the conversations when we've talked about working on things together, you jump ahead in the process towards like the end of it. To where it's going to I tend to go, well, this and this, these are the things that are going to go wrong. So let's change what's going to happen here. Right. Because as a producer in television, you know, I made Rosanne, you know, the Rosanne reboot. So not much goes wrong on my watch ever, because I come from catastrophic thinking, which has made me a great producer, because I'm able to go, this is what's gonna go wrong.

1:13:42So let's actually change this person's call time earlier so that, you know, because there's 200 people involved every day. And the one thing I tried it with Rosanne, I said she's, you know, has a lot to say. She has not been this famous in a while. She's on Twitter. I said like, you know, you can't silence Roseanne Barr, you can't do it, but I felt it. And I didn't say any, I did think it a couple times, but I didn't say anything. And a lot of times the job as a producer, you know, in my field, because you're working with so many people on a daily basis that are programmed under influences of not even Yes, probably drugs and all kinds of stuff, but fear, shame, guilt, all that nasty shit Desire for perfection.

1:14:32They don't do well with authority figures and by that I mean they turn authority figures into daddy daddy mommy Mommy and they they're front of lobe cuts off they stop functioning You know, I've seen the way that people reacted to Rosanne. I didn't that's the one ship moving towards the cliff I didn't see Because comedians we so want to be like everyone else. We so just want to be treated We kind of want our outsides to match our insides. Because we go, we're just like you, we're just like, we just are so desperate for attention. We just get up there and say it. Communion is like, our uniqueness doesn't have to do with how funny we are.

1:15:07I think it's our ability to have discipline and our ability to tolerate a tremendous amount of embarrassment and pain. Because that's what the first 10 years of stand -up is. And then the rest of it is a different kind of embarrassment and pain. And I think there's a healthy insecurity because I've seen the opposite in comedy, and it's really dangerous. On the shit, I just killed, when someone, I can usually tell who is about to lose their entire career to a drug addiction or arrogance when they come off stage. Arrogance doesn't work. Bill Burr, Louis CK, Joe Rogan, all they come off stage and like, I should have, I should have, standing ovation for 20 ,000 people.

1:15:49They're like, I should have, David Tell, I should have said it, the fuck I should have said it this way. I mean, it's like they're on the stress. Yeah, because they're competing with themselves. It's not about the validation from the audience. They did it and they wanted, and they see how they can make it better. The validation from the audience, like you don't get points for that. That's just us doing our job. So when I come off and I'm like, oh shit, I'm like, how could you be, you just got laughs and standing invasions and applause breaks and it's like, yeah, I don't, You know, get points for that at the stage.

1:16:22I need it. I should have created goosebumps. I should have created awe. You know, I remember seeing Gone Girl or John Wick, whatever's in the zeitgeist. So I have to go see what it is to know where to plug it in if I need to in crowd worker or anything. You know, I have to like know what everyone else is reacting to and why. And that also helping for me. Like, okay, John Wick is the biggest movie. People really want to see guns or what it's, But then, you know, I start to lose faith in humanity and then you actually go see it and learn what you're talking about because I don't like it when people mouth off on shit that they've done no research on.

1:16:56And then I go see it. And the whole reason he kills all those people is because they fuck with his dog. I'm like, I fucking love this. Okay, now I love humans again. So much, I think, of the artist's job now is to keep your faith in humanity because at least as a comic, because I have to wake up every morning wanting to make them laugh. There's something in pro wrestling they call the cheap pop, which is like when you go to If you went to wrestling in San Francisco and the wrestler came out and said something about the local sports team like and Everybody cheers like if you reference and that what you're describing is the same as a cheap pop It's like if I'd mention if I plug in John Wick.

1:17:36It's this relatable thing and And um, but is that bad? Is it can the audience? There's no bad, there's no good or bad. I wouldn't do it. You've said, I wouldn't do it in some work order. I wouldn't do it, but it does sound, it sounds like a, um, low hanging fruit, like a manipulation. And I think for live shows, sometimes I've had to force myself, even though it makes me hate myself after, it makes me go like, eh, did you really just do like a Charlie Rose, or wherever, you know, like I'll look at, look up the city before I go, but I think as long as it's something that's not less clever than in your playing to the top of your intelligence, but I know I'm doing a local reference just to get that.

1:18:17And I think that, you know, comedians sometimes we just show up at cities and go, Hey, but here are my jokes. I like it does make them feel special. And I know that that's part of my job. I think what's interesting to me is finding a new way to do things. It's like Like if everyone does it this way, if everyone's talking about this subject, I'm not interested in that subject. Yes, it's the hot subject. Yes, you could ride that wave. It's not interesting to me. What's interesting to me is something else. I like the oddity of hearing something that I've never thought about before. I like hearing something that makes me really pay attention because like, well, this isn't like the other, the song structure is different than I'm used to.

1:19:03The, this kind of music is something that's unusual to me. It's not more of the same. I like not more of the same. So in general, when I think if there's, okay, there's this technique that everyone can use, you know, if we were getting up at the comedy store and they're gonna be 10 comedians this night, eight of a 10 might mention this thing. I wouldn't want to mention that. You shouldn't ever. Always, it's like when I first started, it was homeless people, then it was my space, then it was Facebook. And I think comedians have this - Who's topical? Fallacy that, oh, this is airplane food. It's going to make me relatable.

1:19:40Everyone's going to know this reference, but that is coming in with a really arrogant, I think a lot of artists, at least in what I do, TV and stand up, have this idea that the people are dumb and they're not going to be able to wrap their head around an esoteric reference. It's like if you need to use Facebook as your punchline, like, yeah, you're also not taking into account the three comments before you probably already mentioned that. So it's not even a special reference. But also it's like people have to they're on it all fucking day. The last thing they want to do is hear about it again.

1:20:11You know, so, you know, to me, I always say have snobby setups. Like your taste, forget about the punchlines. If you're like, you're writing don't even think about the jokes because the setups have to be interesting on their own. And I started doing all this weird shit where I was just in New York and I didn't order a new Uber, I just like got a cab and I'd like talk to the cab driver. I mean to me I'm just paying someone to let me try bits on them or paying someone to sort of, you know, it's also demoralizing because most cab drivers are funny or the most mean, you're just like, damn it, you're so fucking f*****g you should have a podcast.

1:20:43You know, but it's not about being funny, it's about being interesting. Chris Rock I think is who said this of the more specific you are, the more universal you So as long as you're specific about something, no one knows anything about, it's gonna be way more interesting than being, you know, funny about something everybody's already heard of, because we're chasing that surprise. And I see in your music library, which I've tried to not talk about too much, because I know you have to talk about it all the time, but you go from hip hop to country, to all these words, or I don't even know the difference between alternative and rock and all those, you know.

1:21:17It's like when people say, what's different from alt comedy? I'm like, funny is funny, you know, to me, country has more in common than most hip -hop than it does with rocks sometimes, you know, so I'm kinda like, you know, not that versed enough musically to sort of know the genres, but do you tend to take on projects or artists to surprise yourself? Because it seems like you're going like... I like it to be interesting. To you. I wanna be interested, yeah. I see comics get on stage and they're like, what else is happening? I'm like, why are you bored? Like you at least, and this is I've just, I've learned this from, I mean, making mistakes is like, if you're not, if you don't think the joke's funny, what the fuck are you telling it?

1:21:58And that reminds me of point of view. You talk about point of view in your book a lot. And it's something that I, people who say the comics, you have to have point of view, you have to have point of view. It's this, how do you know your point of view is yours or, you know, because we're in this crisis of conformity or something you've heard or what's going to make your parents, Like, how do you know when it's truly yours? Well, one of the things I talk about in the book is you don't have to worry about it because it's yours. Me not worry about something. You don't have to worry about it because it's already there.

1:22:29And your point of view is how you experience the world. And you can't project how someone else experiences the world. We don't know. We'll never know. Never know. We only have our own experience. And the way that we can have any sense of relationship with anyone else is to share what we see and then have someone else tell us well. Yeah, I see it like that or no, I don't I see it this other way. That's the only way we know anything is through. This is how I see it. Our only job is this is how I see it. That's our part. That's our part in the world. This is how I see it. and also knowing that it can change.

1:23:07Like, I know, I don't know anything. I might learn something and have a point of view for a period of time, and then that might change based on new information. That's how it's supposed to be. That's how humans are supposed to be. It feels natural. I feel no obligation to be the person I was yesterday. And with new information, I will change my mind three times a day. You talk about all the different angles coming in as a comedian of all the places you could go. Were those always clear to you from the beginning? Yes, I've always felt very overwhelmed by other people's experience. And I think that I've done a lot of work recently on ancestral trauma and epigenetic imprinting.

1:23:49And I've always really been attracted to neuroscience. I know science is really the older I get the more you realize it's all just kind of... I did focus groups and I signed up for scientific studies in universities when I was poor. So I know how bogus a lot of them probably are because I just said shit I need to say to make 50 bucks, you know, I mean even side effects like I did you know product beauty products That you would see and write it and stuff and you would try them They would send you the product and then you would go in and talk about it and the people that would talk about it Like I'm actually I think responsible for why Neutrogena didn't release like a brush that was like aw because I was like oh it's hard to wash and it was like I had like I would give constructive feedback that was like helpful but think about it They have 3 ,000 people working in their company.

1:24:29And then some broke bitch for $50, caught some problem. So it's genius for them to do these focus groups. But then you get on the list and they say next week, they're like, oh, L 'Oreal is having a focus group. Robotussen is having a focus group. And then the people that were like the dorks that knew you'd get called back the next week for another $50, we'd all be, and this is like a little bit of a basis for a bit. I'm watching you nod and I'm going, maybe I should talk about this. And then there's like four or five people that we all were in this, you'd see them every week. You know what I mean?

1:25:00Dan and Jocelyn and Rick and it was just, we'd all get called back. And, you know, the side effects would be like, oh, I always had migraines. So I'd be like, I kind of had a headache, you know, but I had migraines at the time. So there's no way to delineate, but they wrote it down. And then you start to get to know the people in the focus groups. You know, you see them at Starbucks, you see them around, and then, you know, Jocelyn's like, like, you know, I'm a little dizzy and you're like, you're always kind of dizzy, bitch. Like that's not, I've seen you outside the studies though. Like Dan is always drowsy, dude.

1:25:30Don't put that down. Like this is like the seven dwarves. They're just drowsy dopey. Like, Dan, I saw him smoking weed before the study. You cannot write that down. Like it was such a ridiculous. And then I would also make money. I was in an acting class with Sean Lennon. And I have told him this and we would hang out. We, it wasn't romantic just like the Custheaves. He would stay at Carrie Fisher's, but sometimes he would stay at my house because it was closer to the acting class And he would leave t -shirts at my house and I would sell them at Buffalo Exchange Because it would be like a Durand Durand like Very rare concert D -shirt and I would go sell it at Buffalo Exchange for like $200 So funny.

1:26:09He'd be like you see my shirt. I'm like no, haven't much. Be a carries create the maid over there Okay, I have a question based on that. Are you a pathological liar? I'm capable of it and I I've talked about this before, but I'm in ACA, adult children of alcoholics. It's like AA or NA or any of those, but our drug isn't heroin or alcohol. It's internal drug cabinet, adrenaline, cortisol, because that turns into dopamine. Part of the reason science, studying science, helps me so much, because then it means it's not my fault that I'm like this. Epigenetic imprinting the studies are showing who knows.

1:26:48science has debunked every two years, but it really serves me at the moment. So the science I do believe of the neurochemicals that the mother emits while the baby is in utero, the baby will be born addicted to. So the same way you're addicted to a crack baby or an opioid baby, it's true. I mean, kids are being born addicted to opiates, going through withdrawals. And my mom was definitely like, my dad was cheating on her when she was in utero. I wasn't expected. I wasn't planned. They didn't want me. It was a whole thing. And so, you know, I definitely was born, like, I mean, there's stories to me just like crawling off things.

1:27:23I took a quailude when I was a year old at, you know, one of my dad's mistress's house is almost just, I mean, I know that most babies would put anything in their mouth, but I think that the confluence of needing that adrenaline and being so ignored probably had something to do with it. But I was, my dad was a pathological liar. And a lawyer, same, same. What's the difference? And I remember one of my biggest mistakes on my last special is I was working on a joke or like an argument I think of it more as like an argument which is where being a pathological liar Having that skill comes in handy even though I'm not allowed to do it my relationships or personal life Because I have to Pathologically lie to myself that I'll be able to get away with this sort of pathological lying to me I try to utilize it as a form of delusional confidence, which is something you need to have to think I'm going to go on stage and try to make the argument that phones are not bad for kids.

1:28:20So growing up with these maladaptive behaviors, what I saw, I saw cheating and lying very early. Always go the easy way, easy way, which I think because I found myself having to be a pathological liar in order to protect my parents, you know, we were always the kids without the right uniform, without the permission slip and we were taught, my dad would teach me, would say, this is what you should say to your mom when we go in and say that we were at the donut store and we stopped and got ice cream and I'd be like, oh yes, and I would sell it, I'd have to. So if I could lie to my parents, and once I got divorced too, I could calm everyone down.

1:28:53And then people were knocking on my door, looking for my dad and I had to go like, oh he's not here right now. And like, what do you, you know, I had to as a former survival, but then the things that help protect us as children become liabilities later. But you're like, oh, I have only fucking superpowers. What do I do? I guess I'll become an actor, you know? I guess all lie to myself that I'll be able to be a female comedian. So yes, I believe I have the ability to be a pathological liar. It's a superpower that I learned very young and I came to Hollywood. I basically went, I'm going to go get rich there.

1:29:23I had to lie on every resume, every interview, yes. Yes, yes. I had to say I've done stand up and we're do stand up. To get a loan from a bank, you have to lie and say you have money. No one's going to even money to a poor person. I guess, if you're poor, you have to lie most of your life to get anything. I had to lie to get food. I had to lie to my landlord. Why couldn't pay the rent? Like, yes. I think that the word pathological is like, that's where it gets dicey because I look at someone like Anna Delvey. I don't know if you saw that story. She was this con artist in New York who conned the art world.

1:29:54And you're like, if you're in, if you conned con artists, are you really, is it really pathological? Are you just playing the game you have to play to survive? I had to go on dates with agents and lie that I was gonna see them again, the good information I needed to learn how to succeed, but now I can't not allow to do it. Sometimes I lie to myself maybe, but they say that we tell like 30 lies a day, just like five minutes away, almost there, just like little lies, I don't even do that. I think comedians were kind of the opposite, were like pathological truth tellers. We share things. We shouldn't, but we shouldn't share sometimes, you know?

1:30:30Like when you say pathological, I go like, like, ugh, that means bad, but if you're lying to a liar, is that bad? Yeah, I don't really know. I know it feels good to tell people what's going on with you. The truth, the releasing. It's also the only way that we, it's like if you're in a relationship with someone and you tell them something, it's not true. You're not really in a relationship with them anymore. It's like you're not, we're going through life thinking we're in the same movie. And if either one of you thinks you're in a different movie, then we're not really together. You know? It's so interesting you say that because I've had this thing where this aversion to the word love, I love you or the phrase I love you.

1:31:23And I went, okay, what are the forensics on my, you know, it's my job as a comedian to do forensics on why the fuck I have an aversion to something that everyone else likes so much. Is it just the Oscar Wilde thing of everything that's popular is wrong? No, it can't be that. You know, because a lot of popular shit's amazing. But saying, I love you, why do I hate that phrase so much? You know, because I saw growing up, someone say, I love hit you and then they say, but I love you. And then in relationships later, I love you started feeling like after fights, but I love it started feeling like shut up the sub.

1:31:53I only look at subtext. I love you. I love you. People kind of use it to manipulate. And then I'd see it thrown around like, love you, love you. Like, I love you. It's not always said the way Congress to what it's supposed to mean. So I kind of went, I don't like this thing. Maybe I am like a woke police asshole. Everyone stops saying I love you. It's trigger. And the concept of love just always felt like so much pressure because I don't think I'd ever felt it before. So I didn't know how to give it or what it was supposed to feel like. And when people did love me, it just felt like pressure because I need a lot of alone time.

1:32:24and love felt like this smothering, like I feel like you're addicted, need something from me, and I couldn't handle anyone needing anything from me, except complete strangers, where it was a transactional thing where we knew the rules, you know? But how important is self -love to an artist, and is there room for a little bit of self? You know, there's such a war on your inner bully, like inner critic, but I think finding harmony between radical self -love for your child, but also going, yeah, that wasn't good enough. You were fucking lazy today, and that was sloppy. Is there a way to find the balance, and if someone isn't in balance, like, what would you recommend they do?

1:33:04I think we can both feel good about ourselves and be critical of the work. Like the work could always be better. It's different when you turn it around and make it, I'm no good. If you say, that set was not as good as it could have been. That's different than saying I was no good tonight. Yeah, I'm no good. I'm not funny It's very different than that joke on stage tonight. It didn't get a laugh. Maybe that joke's no good That's fine, but I will say I'm seeing a lot of comedy in comedians younger ones Plateau because they're blaming the audience. I believe the audience is never wrong Yeah, you know that that's I don't think that's not started the case in music But no, I think the audience is never wrong.

1:33:51It doesn't mean that what you're making isn't good. Those things are not automatic. You can make something great and the audience doesn't get it. And that's fine. That's okay. But there's also what I would say, and this is what, you know, I'm so interested in your sort of take on comedians, as you've been sort of spending more time with them, more closely. I want to talk one more thing about the writers room in a second, but usually the times that I come off stage saying that set wasn't good, I've probably gotten cute. It doesn't mean it was like awkward. Usually when something's like awkward or doesn't get laughs, I'll go, ooh, I took a risk.

1:34:29That was cool. It's so much more interesting to see a successful comic fail. We're trying something new. We made an album with dice that was about him bombing, and it's really cool. It's the whole album was just, he's losing his mind, and the audience is just not laughing. And it's so funny. I bet that's gonna be the to comment. That's the funniest one. It's Brody Stevens. I mean, he's our hero. It's like not going for jokes and just being in that flow of being private in public. If you're able to, like you say, like I say, ride the wave or you say, like chase that lightning, stay with that lightning, of like just stay with that feeling.

1:35:09because one of the most powerful things that I look a lot to performance art too. I just try to not look to too much comedy because I go like, I'm never gonna be able to figure out. I'm never gonna emulate what prior did. I'm never gonna emulate what Rodney Dangerfield did. I can study him all day long, but I don't have his essence. I don't have his pain. Rodney, the brilliant joke writing, of course. He was a mathematician with the math and the soul, airtight, so, you know, as a Tetris game, you know, when you're playing Tetris and it just, ch -ch -ch -ch -ch -ch -ch, and it's just like so satisfying in terms.

1:35:44And as an audience member, you felt so safe in his arms. Ronny Dangerfield, one of the greatest things I think he did was give the audience, you know, the ability to be the funniest person at the office the next day. You know, my dad would pick up women using Ronny Dangerfield jokes, and he was very intentional about that. But I guess on some level that is thinking about a result or the audience liking you or you know that's more valuable to me than money that someone when someone says oh I used one of your jokes in my vows I officiated a wedding because I did a special where I said my definition of love is being willing to die for someone you yourself want to kill and people use that and their vows a lot you know and that's like that's really funny that makes me feel so great that a lot of people can't necessarily, in music you give people the ability to, you know, human beings actually said this to me once.

1:36:31He was like, you know, there's certain feelings that words can't convey. If music actually, you give people like the vocabulary, the emotional vocabulary. When I'm dating someone now, I just send them songs. You know, do you ever get discouraged by human behavior and how do you combat that since you're making things to make them happy? I just focus on what I'm making and hope that people like it, but I don't think too much about big picture things like that. You're just like so present, you won't go in a minute ahead. Okay, I'm just gonna ask these last questions because I'm gonna do an open about your book.

1:37:04Oh, do you do your anger size? It's on page 64, the anger exercise. Do you do this often? I don't know, but I have done it. Can I ask anything that came up? This is punching, you're punching a pillow, pretend it's Nancy Pelosi, whatever you need to do. Punching a pillow for five minutes straight. Yeah, with a clock. Which by the way, he writes. It's really hard. He writes, this is harder than it seems. I was like, I got this. After the three, I was winded. But then I was angry that I was winded. And I wanted it so bad that I tried it a couple times, but I learned a lot about myself just in that trying to punch it.

1:37:40It's interesting. What's interesting about it is when I did it, it was recommended to me. And I didn't feel like I had any anger. And the purpose of this is to like physically tap into something that allows it to come up beyond your conscious mind. It's any unconscious anger that you have in you. It gave me permission to exercise anger that I hadn't repressed. It's like, you know, I might not even know you have. Like when I'm in a sour mood and a real quick hack is just a smile. Like actually just moving those facial muscles will already send a signal and you're already like okay And can I ask what do you remember any did something specific keep coming up?

1:38:26I don't remember it was so long ago, but I remember just writing a lot and I don't remember what it was about and now I feel like everything I wrote down I need to write a joke about you know because it's all stuff that has been haunting me And I think that a lot of being an artist tell me if does this feel right or wrong is being haunted by I feel like I'm haunted by something and it won't stop haunting me until I get it out and so that I can haunt other people. Could be. You know, I think that what I'd say for people listening, like, you know, this book, I've read books before about creativity and I'm like, this is so specific to that person.

1:38:59Like you write it in a way that no matter how neurodivergent you are, how different your circumstances are, like you can make this apply to you and you refuse to make things prohibitively specific. Yeah, it's not specific at all. It's general on purpose. It's like an idiot proof. Like it's like, I couldn't find a way to go, well, this doesn't apply to me, therefore, because I think a lot of times we're so insecure, scared to try that we're looking for obstacles, just so that we don't have to take the risk of failing. And reading this whole thing, I was like, I can't find anything to be like, well, that's just him because he's a man and he's already really successful.

1:39:35So I don't have, you know what I mean? It's like, I think a lot of times our brain or trying to protect us from taking a risk. Yeah, this is just an invitation to open your mind up and try things without telling you what to do at all. There's nothing in the book that tells you what to do. Can I read some of my anger stuff to you that came out because this anger exercise, like it was really intense. This, again, this was an exercise where you beat a pillow for five minutes straight. And then afterwards, you take a pen, paper, make sure you have enough paper because a lot's going to probably come out and just say everything that comes to you.

1:40:14Don't overthink it. It's like when we do the word association exercises, it's a little bit like that. Just have it come out. So after banging the pillow for five minutes, which I think I was beating myself up more than I was beating the pillow up. Even witnessing your own inner monologue while you're doing it. I'm a piece of why can't you do this? Why are you out of shape? I want, you know, but I got, I definitely, I got emotional. It did start crying because I just was like, even thinking about it, because I was just like so mad at myself for being so mad at myself, you know? Because it's just like, why the fuck do I need to be perfect?

1:40:49Like I'm banging a fucking pillow. Like, who's did that to you, you know? And I think we talk a lot about anger, but after losing both parents, you know, which I'm relieved for, I think a lot of being an artist is like grieving responsibly. I don't care what you've been through. You don't get to mistreat people. You don't get to hurt people. If you hurt yourself, that's not great either. But I've been trying to find a way to grieve because Instagram, there's these memes. Love yourself. I can say grieve responsibly, people like Howbitch and just the act of like, you know, I, I'll send you this video.

1:41:23I don't know if you've ever seen screen painting where you paint and scream at the same time. No, it's for me. It's the funniest, whenever I watch it all the time, for 10 years I watched this video of this dude, he's like, ah, ah, ah, ah. And he's dead serious. He's like, so then you just put the brush on the canvas and it's like hilarious. And then I was like, maybe I need to start screen painting because I like you, I don't feel angry. Like I feel frustration, I feel a lot of feelings, but I tend to not feel anger. And then hitting the pillow, a lot came up. And a lot of sadness came up. And then I just put a pen to paper.

1:42:02I tried to not overthink it. I really tried to not edit anything. And I was also embarrassed. My hands, I haven't written with a pen and it's that much and so long. I was like, oh no, this is like, Carpool Tunnel, Whitney's Anger exercise. What came up first after banging the pillow for five minutes, hypocrites, animal abusers, which by the way, will you grade me on my, I'm like, is this right? And I realized how much I needed to be perfect in my anger exercise. And then I got angry about that. Hippocrates, animal abusers, impossible beauty standards, sea world, zoos, zoos, zoos, algorithms, people who complain about algorithms, parents who take their kids to zoos, that just kept coming up.

1:42:48People who take their kids to zoos, what are you doing? People who get bent out of shape when someone says the word retard. People who don't see their projecting, self -righteous, indignation addicts, hall monitor dorks. The guy who said, the arduous clay was problematic because I just heard it. Horse carriage business in New York City, white women who are more toxic than the white men, they call, quote, trash, people who use me, people who don't use me. That's big. Because that means I have no worth. That's big. If someone doesn't want to use me, then I don't have anything valuable, that was big.

1:43:31Colbalt mines. Got to sublisten it. Rogan stopped texting me. People who forget America is barely 300 years old. America is like a kid. It's like a baby country. This is the first time it made me think of America as like a toddler who's kind of screwing up a little bit. But it just needs time to... I don't know, I just, I had a compassion for America being young for the first time. I hadn't thought about it like that before. Comics from other countries who got successful by criticizing America. That's really funny. Wild printer toner, coconuts, 200 people a year die via coconut. Pepsi, did you see the Pepsi documentary?

1:44:12Pepsi points documentary? Pepsi give the guy the fucking jet, bad corporate business, like corporations, like unfair corporate practices, corporations slash government. Like I was in like a state. I was just like writing, I can't even read a lot of my, that's like not even my handwriting. That's not even my handwriting. Someone who wants to stay in a problem and not solve it, people who go to the problem for the solution, my reliance on Wi -Fi, the way who I am when I can't get Wi -Fi. Like, I am so mad at that person in impending earthquake, People who can't separate art and artists, the Mona Lisa, is it that good?

1:44:54I think I'm angry at things that get attention, that don't deserve attention. I'm like, why? I saw a photo of people standing in line crowded around to see the Mona Lisa. I'm like, Brian Simpson is a comedian in Austin right now. A Rogan's Club. That's who you need to go stand in line to see. I think I get mad at shit that's so old, that I'm kind of like, do you really think that's good or did you just, did you hear it was good? You know, I get annoyed when I think people are being zombies or robots. The show Euphoria, nudity and shows is cheating. People who think I live out my age since I'd love to, but don't.

1:45:31My dad and mom's alcoholism, addiction in general, lack of teaching meditation in schools, proms, homecoming, toxic high school. I've never thought about it. Like I've never been like prom was traumatizing. Like, wire school's forcing kids to fuck. It's like to date. It's nuts. Circumcision, arrogant doctors. People who ask shit to you that they could Google.

1:46:02It weighs on me. Someone's like, oh, I wanna come see your show. Where is it? When you come, he's like, why are you? I'm very conscious about the finite amount of energy. I feel like I have a day. I call it energy dollars. I have 100 energy dollars a day. I can't give you this dollar, dude. I am already at 60 and I might have already borrowed from the next day. Like it's kind of a philosophy I live by. Anyway, people who pretend to help just to seem helpful, performative, helpfulness. Small talk, energy vampires. And as far as I got. That's pretty good. Because I started getting really emotional that like, that like I think I started thinking like, okay, all this people that pretend to help energy vampires like did I do this to myself by becoming a known person and can I ever go back?

1:46:52Because like I worked so hard to get famous because I went, oh, that's gonna get my dad's attention and then once I realized my dad died, I was like, okay, shit, now what the fuck do I do? Now what? Now what? I was like, rudderless. I was like, okay, Well, if we're in a simulation, he might be up to it. I was like, I had to go, well, he's probably in another universe he's not dead and he might be watching this universe. I still need to be funny. And then I was like, oh, I'm going to be of service. I'm going to be of service. And I'm going to have my stand -up have messages in it and codify, like make people laugh, lubricate, really rough things and be of service.

1:47:27And then I was like, oh, the more famous you are, the bigger platform. If you're funny, you're of service. You don't have to go past that. I needed some kind of permission to keep doing something that I think boiled down to me to stealing the limelight of narcissists. So I grew up with narcissists. And if you were funny or took attention, they would be like, my mom competed with me in my sister. If we still attention from her, from my dad, she would be mad at us. So I think I need permission to be the center of attention. or else I'm just like taking it away from someone else because I know how good attention can feel when you haven't had it.

1:48:09So on some level I go like, I don't wanna take the attention from someone else because like people need it so badly right now. You see, I just see this epidemic of people that need to be heard and they're going so far as to say, you can't say that and you can't do that. And I just, it boils down to me going like, oh my God, I know what that's like. I know what it's like to need attention so bad that you're gonna do a desperate thing. I used to hurt myself as a kid just to get attention. I would try to throw myself off things. I remember sitting with a knife. I didn't wanna kill myself. I was just like, when I'm hurt, I get attention.

1:48:40When I'm perfect, I get attention. When I break something by accident, I get attention. It's not the, like, and I remember like sitting with, like be alone in my house. Like, this, I feel like this would be mad. They'd be mad about this. That's the stuff they drink at night that makes them go tie -tie. Like, don't break the wine. I remember being very specific about like, I need to break something because, and pretend I'm hurt. And I would do it a lot. Pretend to be sick, whatever you could do. And then so now as an adult, I want to go, I want to make sure I'm not fucking doing that. I don't want to do that selfish thing.

1:49:12This has got to be, you know, you set it in the last line of the book. It's just got to be about the art. It cannot be for me. I'm like, this can't be about my ego. This can't be about me. This can't be about me wanting to make another female comedian that was rude to me showing her. I got to really vet my motives because those will come up sometimes. And I'll go, if I don't have a pure motive, I can't make something pure. But I can't stress enough about how even a brain as chaotic as mine was able to just focus on these real, cause these days, there are people like getting an ice bath. Like, okay, I don't, I can't, that's a lot for a lot of people to just all you need is a quarter to flip.

1:49:52Like just getting back to basics, I think humans, you need to get a robot to help you with your creativity and get neurolink, it's like just find a cord. You don't need anything. And then my favorite thing about the cord or exercise, when I flipped the coin, I hadn't had a cord or a while. I have them around, but I'm in this digital now, money, whatever. And I flipped the coin and then I realized, I'm shooting my special this year because I was like, I shouldn't, it made me realize how much shame I was, you make too many specials, you made a special a year ago and told me get another one too soon, whatever, all these fallacies of a great special should take a long time.

1:50:24Not necessarily, the shit came to me so fast and this book has just helped me have so much more compassion for myself and you're making me realize like I'm like watching me talk about comedy must be so stressful for him but we don't have like producers we don't have like someone to kind of go yeah do that or don't do that like we kind of I think a lot of times feel like we have to be our own producer director everything and our own critic and I think a lot of the best comics like are really hard on themselves and I think finding the balances a tricky one because I just never want to be self -indulgent.

1:50:59I'm just dead. I'm gonna set you free. Should we wander? We should. That's wander. Could I just speak to you today?