MBA2461 Extended Interview: Allan Dib - How to Get Bigger Results with Less Marketing

27:30Like they don't like you putting like opt-in links and things like that. I think they're a bit more open to that these days. but they don't like really kind of out-of-the-box ideas in terms of the book they wanted because it's one of 100 books to them. They don't really care, you know, one of 100 books that they're releasing that month or that year or whatever else. So, it's not a big deal to them. So, for them, the model is, you know, one out of every thousand will be hit and that'll cover the cost of all the others. So, to me, obviously, that's not what I wanted. So, yeah. And so, So that hybrid approach also got me distribution, bookstore distribution, and getting into publishers and things like that.

28:10So really it gave me the two things that I cared about most, and it gave me the most control where I'm direct with Kindle, I'm direct with Audible, but for the paperback, they helped me get distribution into bookstores and the whole book industry. So when I order a book on Amazon, a physical book, like a paperback, do they print and send it out? So, yes, it was initially print-on-demand the very first edition, but we now offset print them. So, we do usually print runs of 20 ,000 copies or so at a time. And then you've got to ship them and warehouse them and all of that. So, it goes to Macmillan for warehousing and shipping and distribution to all of the different bookstores.

28:55Okay, excellent. I love this model because I'm a big believer in ownership in business. And here in publishing, I could see how owning the rights, owning the line share of the profits or the sales that you get from the book. Because people that traditionally publish, they could sell a million copies. I know some authors that sell a million copies and they don't make a lot of money. They barely make a dollar on a book. And you might think, oh, that's a million dollars. That's over time. And they got, you know, the authors have to pay editors. They got to pay promotion. They got there's a lot of fees involved.

29:33And yes, I know traditional publishing, you might benefit from, you know, the proposal structure or maybe you'll benefit from taking it seriously for that kind of person that needs that kind of motivation. But at the end of the day, I am the reason why I was so curious about your models, because more and more, it's just becoming ego more and more. It's just like they just want a traditional publisher so that they can be able to maybe hit a list or maybe, I don't know, you know, just say that being published by Penguin or whatever it might be. And if that's not your jam, and hopefully it isn't, that's their driving force to write a book, you're just trying to get your message out, you're trying to grow your business, you're trying to, you know, become a thought leader in your area, then this is a really interesting thing to look into.

30:21I would highly recommend just as for selfish reasons, Alan, is like maybe put together a course on this. Maybe put together a live workshop or something because I think there will be a lot of people that are interested in it. I'm thinking about it. I'm releasing a new podcast shortly and one of the episodes is how to create, monetize, and publish a best-selling book. So that's one of the episodes I've already recorded and so there'll be a training there. Okay, great. I'm going to definitely subscribe for that one. Just to piggyback off the book, the one-page marketing plan, your first book. I noticed that you're on Kindle Unlimited.

31:00Tell us a little bit about why you chose to do that and what are the advantages? What are some things you have to look out for? So, one of the things that you're going to have to decide both for audio and for digital, the digital version of your book is whether you're going to go exclusive with Amazon or not. So it's called Kindle Select. It's for Kindle and for Audible, they've got a royalty structure. So for Audible, if you're exclusive to them, they'll give you 40 % of the royalties. If you have extended distribution, meaning you're not exclusive to Audible, they'll only pay you 25%. With Kindle, if you enroll into Kindle Select, you can only sell the digital version of your book on Kindle.

31:44Now that sounds restrictive, but it comes with a lot of benefits, meaning they will promote your book often when there is a promotion, you know, like Prime Day or whatever. You'll often be highlighted in some of their best of lists and things like that. And also you'll get paid for people who borrow the book and just read it. So you get paid by reads of your book, kind of like streams of your, like if you had an album or YouTube channel. Yeah, exactly. So, similar kind of model. So, there's a lot of those advantages. The other thing that I saw was that if I'm only in one marketplace, that's going to push me up in the bestseller list versus if I diluted across multiple marketplaces.

32:31Now, realistically, there are a couple of other digital marketplaces and I don't want to say anything bad about them, but really the big dog in the room, the one who's got 90 plus percent of the market share is Amazon. So given that they are the player in digital books, there was almost no point in being on the other platforms and losing those benefits and also diluting myself across those multiple platforms. So as far as I could see, Kindle is really the major game in terms of digital books. And so that's where I decided to play. And I think that's been a good choice. Do you find that being on Kindle Limited gives you a little bit more exposure or gives you a chance for people to taste what Alan is all about and, you know, even maybe help you get a couple more reviews than you normally would?

33:22Or does it not make a difference? It does. Yeah, I think it totally makes a difference. And because you're included in different promotions, people can borrow your book if they're on Prime or whatever, all that sort of stuff. And really, I see the digital version of the book as kind of almost like a free trial. Even when you buy it, I think I priced it at something like$2.99 or whatever the minimum is just to get the 70 % royalty. Not because I'm going to make so much money from the digital version of the book, but it introduces people into my world, into my ecosystem. People will opt in on my email list.

33:56Very often, people will say, hey, I first got your book on Kindle, but I bought the paperback for my friend. I listened to the audio version while I'm in the gym and all of that. So I think it creates people, it introduces people into our ecosystem. Yeah. And that's exactly what I do. Like I am on Condole Unlimited. If I read a good book I love, I'm like, I got to have this on my bookshelf. Like I order it immediately. So it's definitely a great way to kind of almost get double sales. I don't know if that makes sense. Obviously, it's like a stream, it's not a sale. But that's great insight. I always wondered about that because I know that some books choose to be unlimited, some don't, all that kind of stuff.

34:39But I like the game where you get to get a little bit more exposure and you see it as more of an opt-in. And at the same time, you have other books like Lean Marketing that's coming out now that gives them a chance to take a look at what else you have in store. And yeah, it's an introduction into our world because, I mean, our business is far beyond just the book, right? The book is an introduction into the world. that's kind of into our world and it's a taster. But once people opt in on our email list, they see some of our programs, all of that sort of stuff. Really, when I look at the revenue of our business, yes, book is a nice chunk, but it's a very minuscule chunk of the total revenue of the business.

35:19So really we use it as a kind of self-liquidating offer where the costs of promoting the book and creating the book and all of that sort of printing and all of that is offset by the royalty that come in. I'm glad that you brought that up because a lot of people don't realize all these great authors that you read, you know, yes, they write books and that's kind of their jam, but that's not really their business. Like the book is something they really dedicate. Even somebody who is prolific, like Ryan Holiday, who writes a book every year or something, you know, he has a whole business model behind this, helping sports teams, helping, you know, corporates, helping people with this coaching and his programs and his, you know, memberships and all kinds of stuff.

36:06So, you know, you, you do the same with lean marketing, which is your new rebranded business from success wise. And you have programs, you have ways for people to take things beyond the book, which is interesting because the book is usually where people start and then people want a little bit more or they're like, hmm, maybe I can do this. And then you get your guidance through your products, which I want to touch on in a moment. But I first want to get into this big box I got in my office. I got this huge box, guys. If you want to take a look at it, check out my Instagram. and I open it up and I'm like, there's all this confetti inside.

36:49I'm like, what's happening here? And I'm like, I get in there and I'm like, oh, it's Alan's book. So, I'm going to go grab it right now. He gave me this really cool bookshelf too, which allows the book to lean, which I like. Bookshelf, nice. Yeah. So, Lean Marketing, your latest book. uh we uh got the pleasure and i say we me nicole and and 25 other people uh at an event that i ran called um oscon it was a it was a uh fundraiser for a bike rider that i'm doing in a couple weeks and um in thailand to raise money for the kids in thailand but um lean marketing you talked a little bit about this at the event yes as soon as you started talking about it i was like this is exactly my type of marketing.

37:39I love this because you said something that really resonated and it was, how would you market to your grandmother? You know, would you bombard them with, you know, trip wires and all this terminology that you hear in inner marketing? It's just like, it's just embarrassing really. And, you know, bombarding them with an email a day and hanging them over with an offer and then like a, you know, a counter offer. And, you know, how would you treat somebody that you actually love and care and respect? And that was kind of, I would say, the vibe or the premise of the idea of lean marketing. How can you be more effective with your marketing, do less marketing, but do better than you're doing right now?

38:20I want to pull back a little bit and hear from you and understand where did the idea for this book come from? why are you on this mission to help people start thinking about, you know, changing their methodology or their philosophy when it comes to marketing and move closer to lean marketing? Yeah. So, I'll start with why I wrote this book. I recently got asked, why did you write this book? And I heard, I think it was Seth Godin who said this, but he said, I only write a book when I've got no other choice, right? Meaning like, I'm definitely not like Ryan Holiday where I pump out a book every year.

38:56I'm very jealous of people who are amazing like that, who can just, you know, Mike McCallow, it's Ryan Holiday. They just pump out book after book. I mean, they pump out books faster than I can read them, right? So I don't know how they do it. But I really resonated with that because over the last few years, we've seen, you know, every podcast you listen to, every book you read, it's just more, more, more. So more things on your to-do list, more things to do. You want to get better results, you've got to spend more with your agency. Everything that you read tells you to do more marketing. And when I looked at some of the best marketers in the world, and I would include you in that, the list of things that they don't do is far bigger than the list of things that they do do.

39:45So you're not on TikTok. You've just kind of started on Instagram. You're not really on Twitter or a million platforms. You're not doing the million funnels and tripwires and all of this sort of stuff. And so the best marketers in the world are doing a few small things, but they do them very, very well. They do them very, very consistently. They do them over time. And so where I got the idea for lean marketing is about four years ago, was it four years ago? It was 2019. I was invited to speak at a conference in Mexico and it was put on by the automotive industry. And in the automotive industry, there's been a movement called lean that's been incredibly impactful.

40:31It started in Japan and really started with Toyota. It used to be called the Toyota production system. And so lean is basically a way to do more with less, less human effort, less equipment, less time, less space, while providing the customer exactly or as close to what the company wants. So, you know, sometimes you've heard about like just-in-time manufacturing. So, we're producing something that someone orders today, kind of like print-on-demand. Like if you print-on-demand a book, that's kind of just-in-time. So you press order on Amazon, then somewhere in a printer the thing prints and then gets shipped out to you and all of that sort of thing.

41:11It's great because there's very, very little waste. When you print a book, if it doesn't sell or if bookstores return it or whatever, the books actually get pulped, right? And so there's so much waste. And so I thought we really need this in the marketing space because we keep getting told to do more. We see so much waste. In fact, there's a phrase in marketing, you know, half the money I spend is wasted. I just don't know which half. And so this would never be something that you would hear in manufacturing. There's no manufacturer in the world that says, you know, half of our raw materials are wasted.

41:47We just don't know which half. It just doesn't happen. They operate often at a Six Sigma level, which means that there's 3.4 defects per million opportunities. So they figured out how to remove waste and create much more efficiency in the manufacturing process. And so going back to this conference I was speaking at in 2019, I kept hearing the word lean, lean manufacturing, lean thinking, lean this and that. And I'm like, what the heck is all this lean? And so I'm a bit of an obsessive personality and I kind of really went down that rabbit hole of lean and really figuring it out. and then thinking, hey, why are we not applying some of these lean principles to marketing?

42:30Why aren't we reducing waste? Why aren't we making things more efficient? And then when I looked at some of the best marketers in the world, the list of things they were doing was far, far less than the things that they weren't doing. And also they were creating massive, massive value, massive goodwill with what they do. So you recently went through a business sale and And over and above the tangible assets that you sold, so for example, plant equipment and all of that, your accountant would have written a line item on your balance sheet called goodwill. So goodwill was something that got crystallized when you sold that business.

43:07But goodwill was something that you generated over a long period of time with your customer base. So goodwill is a tangible asset when the business gets sold, but it's not so tangible before that. Before, accounting standards, you can't really put goodwill until you've sold a business or transferred ownership or whatever. So when I looked at some of the output of some of the best marketers, they were creating massive goodwill with the things that they were doing, whether it was a podcast, whether it was a book, whether it was a YouTube channel, whatever it was. And it was creating a lot of positive externality.

43:44So, externality is a term that economists use, meaning kind of the side effects of an economic activity. So, if I've got a factory and it pumps pollution into the sky, that's an externality. And most externalities are negative, kind of like that pollution, like you're creating this pollution in the neighborhood, but you're getting wealthy because you're creating manufacturing products. But you can have positive externalities. For example, one of my neighbors has a beautiful garden. And their gardeners, their green thumbs, they maintain it. They spend all day in the garden. When I look over my balcony, I'll look into that garden and I get joy from that.

44:19And that didn't have a cost to me. So, that's a positive externality. So, I want the kind of marketing that we do to have positive externalities. And all the best lean marketers, they create content that has a positive externality. Like 99 % of the people listening to this podcast will never pay you any money. It's just creating a positive externality in your life. But the 1 % who do, or the 1 % who interact with your sponsors or advertisers or whatever, they're the ones who generate all of the revenue. So despite the fact that the vast majority of people who read my book, who listen to your podcast, who view Mr.

44:55Beast's YouTube channel will never buy, it's still creating a positive externality in their lives. And so that's a very, very efficient way to do marketing. This is such a great concept in so many ways. I recently was in Japan and I went on a factory tour of Yamaha pianos and how they're created. It takes three years to create a grand piano, by the way. I couldn't believe it. But when I was taking the factory tour, first of all, all the stations to create this piano, they're all together. There's not like these separate places. And they do this on purpose because they want everybody to understand their role in creating the piano and the dependencies and people depending on you and all that kind of stuff.

45:41But you really do see the efficiencies. You start to see, wow, they really are a well-oiled machine. There's one station that I remember the most, which was there's a man that's actually setting the chords inside the piano, right? And in order for them to do this efficiently without ruining the piano and making sure everything is done properly, they have this really strong fan blowing in this guy's face. And I'm like, what's going on? Why are they doing this? And they're like, we have to regulate his temperature to make sure he doesn't sweat. Because if he sweats, it's going to drop into the actual, you know, grand piano where the chords are and it's going to really mess this around.

46:24Even a drop of sweat can mess with the sound, the hearkening of the sound inside when the piano's plate. And I was like, you only learn that through so much refinement and repetition and a piano that why does this piano sound different? Oh, what happened here? What's that stain? What did that happen? You know, like, and I love this idea of going deep on something really focusing and you're totally correct. You know, I've been, you know, this podcast will celebrate 10 years in August. And I really hesitated doing any other medium because I really wanted to do well here. And I I wanted to give myself a chance to get better, to become as good as possible.

47:05I don't want to say a master, but I'm on the path of mastery to become a better podcaster. So, if you don't do that, I find a lot of entrepreneurs, they scatter themselves. You know, they want to do services. They want to sell a course. They want to market. Those are just products. But then they want to market on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook and X. And they want to make sure that they're on stages. But they also want to make sure they want to sell a book. But then they want to also do webinars. And it's just like, you just can't be great at everything, you know? So, now, 10 years in, we're really selective before we say yes to something.

47:39Like, we're thinking about starting a YouTube channel. Like, okay, what does that involve? How long is that going to take? And I don't want to start a YouTube channel so I have mediocre success. I want to do something so I have an opportunity to be highly successful over the next, you know, 3, 4, 5, 10 years. So, this is a concept that needs to be taught very early on because this is a habit. You know, I find that as an entrepreneur, you build these habits and you become this kind of entrepreneur. Everybody's a different kind of entrepreneur. You become a person that is a jack of all trades rather than being a specialist or rather being somebody who understands your time, your attention, your skills are limited.

48:20You need to focus. So, tell me a little bit about like what are the first steps for somebody who wants to adopt this methodology, wants to be more of a lean marketer, recognizes some of the things that they're doing wrong, what are the first steps for them to take? So there are nine principles of lean marketing that I outlined in the book, but I want to highlight something that you said. Lean principle number two is all about integration, which is embed marketing through your entire product lifecycle and customer journey. So you mentioned something that when you were at that Yamaha factory, that the whole team was working together on that one product.

48:59Now, this was a very unusual thing before lean manufacturing. In mass manufacturing, you have an assembly line and you've got one guy who screws the thing in, you've got the next guy who assembles it, you've got the next guy who staples it, you've got the next guy who does whatever, right? And they're all very siloed. So, we have a production department, we have a marketing department. We have this department. And they're all very siloed because Henry Ford conceived of that as a very efficient way to create things at a large scale. And it is. But after the Second World War, Japan was in a terrible state.

49:37All of their industries were devastated. They had very few natural resources and they were trying to devise a way that they could be competitive in manufacturing because they just couldn't compete with the mass manufacturing approach. They didn't have the equipment, they didn't have the natural resources, the energy, all of that sort of thing. And that's where lean really came from. Lean was all about how do we create things just in time? How do we work together as a team to make sure that everything works really, really well? And taking that into the marketing approach. So for example, you'll notice in both my books, not just lean marketing, but in the one page marketing plan, I talk about a lot of things that people say have nothing to do with marketing things like creating a world-class experience, creating referrals, upselling, all of those sorts of things, increasing customer lifetime value.

50:29They're things that happen post-sale. And a lot of people are like, you know, this is not really marketing. You're talking about customer service. You're talking about all of those sorts of things. But if people looked forward to speaking to your sales team, would that give you a better conversion rate? if your customer service team was really helpful, would that increase your customer lifetime value? And I mean, we could spend a whole podcast just on lifetime value because that is literally the most important metric when it comes to marketing. It informs everything. And so that happens post-sale for the most part.

51:04That happens long after the sale is made, yet it's such an important marketing metric. So, a lot of what we're doing in lean marketing is integrating the whole marketing throughout the whole life cycle into customer service, into sales, into pre-sales, into figuring out does anyone actually want this product or not, figuring out product market fit. So, marketing is not something that's done after the fact. So, traditionally, you know, the manufacturing teams created the product or the product development teams come up with a prototype, then we've manufactured it. And then finally, it falls to the marketing team to figure out, okay, how do we sell this stuff?

51:42And often, that's when people find, oh, there's not actually a market that really wants to pay for this, or this doesn't really solve a need that anyone is really demanding. And so, that's where a lot of products go wrong. So, Lean Marketing Principle 2 is really integrating marketing throughout the whole product lifecycle and marketing being involved from product development right through to delivery, right through customer service, right through the whole entire organization. Incredibly important. That's a key principle of lean marketing. Yeah. I always think about these experiences that we all have as consumers that we can't help but tell other people about, whether it's flying a great airline or going to a really good restaurant.

52:25You just feel compelled. I got to tell my friends about, have you been to this new Italian place that's on the corner? Yeah. So good. You should try the, you know, the antiposity is so good. And you're not on commission. You're not, you know, but people want to be involved or want to be associated with quality, with a great experience. And in a lot of ways, you know, your whole life gets a whole lot easier when your product is superior. You know, a lot of people don't realize that they want to get scrappy in the beginning, which isn't important. You got to just have an MVP and get things going.

52:58But at a certain point, you have to say, you know, how do I become the market leader in this? How do I make sure that my product, my service, my whatever is way better than what people are expecting? And I really appreciate that you've really drilled that home in the book. It's not just a superior product. It's also a mindset. So a very early mentor of mine had this mantra that it was customers for life, meaning that we're not going to be short term in our thinking. So if we, and I've had customers, I've been lucky enough to have customers that followed me from my first business to my second business to my third business.

53:36And they've gotten to the stage where, look, they're like, look, whatever you're doing, I know you're going to take care of me. I'm going to buy from you. Right. And so think about how efficient that is from a customer acquisition point of view, from a lifetime value point of view. There's someone who will follow you from business to business, who will buy whatever you've got offering because you've taken care of them in the past and they trust that you'll do so in the future. Versus thinking, okay, we've got to close this month's quarters. This is our target. Let's do whatever. Let's do email blast.

54:09Let's do whatever we need to do to close those. sales, that's so inefficient because you're burning so much goodwill. And remember, goodwill is something that literally an accountant will put on a balance sheet. It's not a tangible asset before you sell a business, but it certainly makes up the vast majority of your wealth once you sell a business. Totally. And the acquirer gets to benefit that goodwill even past the sale because you're going to continue to do other things. So, it's a huge value. A lot of people that hear this are like, yeah, you know, thanks, Alan. This makes a lot of sense in some way, you know, but like, why would somebody want to continue to work with me?

54:49You know, they already bought one product, you know, and a lot of people, they forget what it's like to be a consumer when it, but when it comes to themselves and selling their products or services, they forget like, a good example is like, if you're obsessed with somebody, if you love what they do, like say, for example, you're obsessed with Jerry Seinfeld, you love this comedy. If Jerry Seinfeld came out with an online course on how to become a great stand-up comedian, you're going to take it even if you don't want to be a stand-up comedian. You're like, I want more Jerry Seinfeld. That's really what it's all about.

55:17It's like, I want more of this person. I want to connect with them. I'm sure you've heard of Michael Poore. He's an author who wrote the book Book Yourself Solid and he's a public speaking coach. I know him as a friend. I've been coached by him and his team for public speaking and voice lessons and all kinds of stuff. But I've been around his business and seen people that have signed up for his courses and his programs that are not cheap. You know, his programs are like 15 grand and, you know, and really, they keep coming back because they just love Michael. They just love Amy, who's his wife and business partner.

55:55They just love their vibe. And they're just like, how can I get more exposure to this person? Yeah. At some level, I know it sounds strange at some level, but people will just, want to be around greatness and they'll pay for it. And that's the ultimate level, I think. Obviously, you know, people pay for VIP access to rock concerts and things like that so they can be close to their idols and things like that. So, this is a real thing that you're talking about. This is a real thing where people want to get closer and closer to you and are willing to pay for it and continue to pay for it if you can deliver consistently.

56:29How do you deliver consistently though? So you deliver it consistently by, first of all, creating a wow experience. But like I said, also starting with that mindset of what would I do if I was creating this customer for life? So meaning this person is someone I want to buy from me forever and be someone who refers people to me over a long period of time, someone who's a raving fan. So what we want to do is we want to create raving fans in our business because suboptimal clients, they're the worst. They're people who complain the most, always want to speak to the CEO, always refunds or complaints or something's not good enough.

57:12There's a segment of people who are just like that. And most of the time, they're the people who pay the least as well. One of the things in my first business I realized was that the customers who paid us the least were the loudest and always paid late. We always had to follow them up. They were always insisting on speaking to the CEO or whatever. The customers who paid us the most and at the top end, they were paying us about$10 ,000 a month for their telecommunications services. We never heard from them. They just paid their bill automatically and that was it. It was the$500 a month clients that we had to chase.

57:49Hey, Gary, how's it going? Your two doors over due. Hey, Gary's always late. Yeah, we're going to have to cut off your phone lines if you don't pay your bill or whatever. And that was something that was a real revelation to me because it's kind of counterintuitive. So, it really starts with selecting your target market. And that's why the first square of the one-page marketing plan is your target market is because who you work with, the target market that you work with is going to inform everything else that you do. It's going to inform the message. It's going to inform the media, how we nurture them, how we deliver a world-class experience, how we ask for referrals.

58:25That's going to matter very, very much. And so where a lot of people start, they're like a butcher, baker, candlestick maker, doctor, lawyer, whatever. And they're like, you know what? Everyone can benefit from my services. And it feels really counterintuitive. Everything, every fiber in your being is going to want you to widen the net, you know, because it feels like if I widen the net, more people will be attracted to me, more people will buy from me. And I mean, even me with what I know, and I've written two books on this, I'm still tempted to widen the net sometimes. I'm like, you know what, we should do this for this, whatever, or you see something peripheral that's working or whatever.

59:03But you've got to resist that with every fiber of your being. You've got to be like, look, these are the people we're actively going after. And these are the people that our stuff is optimal for. They get an amazing result. They refer new business to us. They love what we do. So really starting with your target market, who are your most optimal clients that are going to get the most benefit from what you do, who are going to pay you a lot for what you do, who are fun to work with? Because again, we went into business for fun, freedom, flexibility. We don't want to hate Mondays. We want to look forward to Mondays.

59:36You don't want to be like, oh my God, I have to work with this client on Monday. So, that's something incredibly important. It really starts with that target market and that product market fit for that target market. Totally. And you touched on the point of the more premium your product or service becomes, the easier clients become. I love this example because we all can relate to it. If you've ever been to a major city and you walk by a Louis Vuitton store, there's a line outside a Louis store. Why? Because do they have like some sort of, is it packed in there and there's some sort of fire regulation?

1:00:11No, there's only like five or six people in the store. But they want to create the sense of it's special to be inside. Only, you know, a certain number of people can be served there and you're going to get VIP treatment. So, the likelihood of somebody waiting in line, finally, it's their turn. It's time to go in. The likelihood of one of them not buying anything is very low to the likelihood, even if they just buy a wallet or something, right? To the likelihood of them being obnoxious and rude where there's like, I better be on my best behavior. I'm going to get kicked out. There's a whole line behind me, right?

1:00:44So, if you put yourself in a context that you can relate to or something you've witnessed, you start to realize, oh, how can I create that Louis Vuitton experience in my own business, whether it's online or offline? And you start thinking, okay, maybe I need to increase my prices. Maybe I need to, you know, target a market that really can appreciate the value I'm giving. And you don't have to do this like once and done. Like you can have tiers. You can have, you know, the free thing and you can have, you know, the low cost thing. And then, you know, the significantly premium thing. But I love the fact that you highlighted that because that's one of the things we've experienced, especially in the SaaS world.

1:01:22because in the SaaS world, there's a lot of different levels of plans and, you know, usership and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, our customer support team, I would say 70 % of all their time was on the lowest plan. People that are on the lowest plan that maybe used it once a month or maybe once every three months or something like that. And I'm not going to badmouth them in any way. They're fantastic people, but the stakes are so high for them. It's got to be perfect. So the expectations are super high. But somebody who has been doing this for a while or$100,$200,$300,$1 ,000 a month doesn't really break the bank for their business.

1:02:02They're like, okay, it's fine. We'll work it out. Or it doesn't do what I want, but okay, I'll figure another way to do this. They're not as demanding because the stakes are not so high. Do you find the same in your own business? Yeah, 100%. I don't know if you've seen that meme. I think I saw it on Twitter. I've seen it on Instagram. It's a$500 client. Look, I'm trusting you. I really need you to deliver results. $50 ,000 client. Wire transfer sent. Thank you. And that's been very much the case. The other thing from a sales perspective, it almost takes the same effort to sell something for$500 as it does for$50 ,000, right?

1:02:40But at$50 ,000, I can afford to create an amazing customer experience. I can be super intentional about onboarding. I can have a customer success person. I can take them through a whole process. At$500, I'm going to have to scrimp and save and figure out how I can squeeze the last drop of profit out of this client. So, charging very little is going to be detrimental to your ability to deliver a world-class experience. Also, what I've found is the most competition is in that middle space. Not everyone wants to be the cheapest and I don't recommend that as a strategy unless you've got some very special cost advantage in your supply chain or whatever.

1:03:25In that case, that may work like a Walmart or a Costco where they just buy in such huge, massive volumes that nobody else can compete in that space. But the least competition is really at the extreme ends, at the low extreme and at the high extreme. The most competition, The red ocean is in the middle. Everyone's fighting for that middle portion. But the high end, that's a massive open opportunity. Totally. It's not as crowded for sure. This has been great. I love speaking to you, Alan. I think you've added so much value to our audience and the show. But before we wrap up, I want to ask just on a personal level, like what is something from your own personal philosophy in life, a belief, a practice that has helped you in your business and beyond?

1:04:15A question that I've been focusing on a lot over the last few years, you know, I sort of talk about this in the book a little bit, but a few years ago, I kind of had like my midlife crisis. If you had seen me a few years ago, I was very overweight. I was physically weak. I was, you know, it was after my dad died. And I started thinking about this question. I think I heard it from Tim Ferriss. It might have been someone else or maybe Derek Sivers. I can't remember. But the question is, what are you optimizing for? You know, so what are you optimizing this business for? So, like, if I'm optimizing for fun, freedom, flexibility, that's a different strategy versus if I'm optimizing for revenue and exit.

1:04:55or if I'm optimizing for value or whatever. So I've come to the conclusion and I really think about this a lot. I call it the Goldilocks zone. It's what is the maximum sort of optimal level of whatever it is I'm thinking about, whether it's revenue, whether it's profit, whether it's lifestyle, whether it's time or whatever. So you don't want to have not enough money. And having heaps and heaps of money is also kind of can be a pain in the butt. There's a lot of responsibility. There's a lot of people at your door. There's security risks and all of that. So what's that Goldilocks zone in terms of wealth, in terms of fun, in terms of freedom, in terms of time that you spend working and all of that sort of thing?

1:05:38So that question revolves in my mind all the time. What am I optimizing for? So I'm launching a new podcast. What am I optimizing for? I write a new book. What am I optimizing for? I'm launching a new business. What am I optimizing for? So, and to me, it's that Goldilocks zone, finding that zone where it's not the minimum effective dose and it's not the maximum you could possibly shoot for the moon, but what's that zone where you get the maximum bang for buck? Because like all things in life, there's kind of that law of diminishing returns. You know, you get to a certain level of wealth and like more wealth is nice or whatever, but it doesn't really change your life that much.

1:06:18You know, maybe your toys get a little bit bigger or more fancy or whatever, but that's about it. So, but there's a level where it makes a massive difference, like going from being poor to being moderately wealthy makes a massive difference. Whereas doubling from there doesn't double your net happiness. So, that's what I think about a lot. I love that. It reminds me of this tweet I saw about Mark Zuckerberg versus Tom Anderson who started MySpace. And, you know, Mark Zuckerberg is huge to success. Meta is like a behemoth of a company, multi-multi-billionaire guy right now, right? But his life, if you look at Mark Zuckerberg, right?

1:07:00He's like the other side of the spectrum in terms of world success and I would say wealth and all that kind of stuff. But he's got to testify in front of Congress. Everybody doesn't like him. You know, he's getting criticized every time he opens his mouth. You know, he's got security on him 24-7. You know, he can't be himself in public, right? And then you look at Tom Anderson who for all, you know, intents and purposes, people thought, oh, what a failure. He sold MySpace and multi-millionaire still, you know, still, you know, living a very good life. His Instagram is filled with travel pics and fun and no one even knows him.

1:07:34No one even recognizes him on the street, right? So, like, maybe he found that Goldilocks zone where, like, maybe he won at the end, you know, like, at the end of the day, yes, he's not Facebook. He didn't win the social media war, but on a personal level, he's doing pretty well. 100%. And I've come to the conclusion, I mean, it obviously depends where you live and there's different costs of living in different parts of the world. But I think that Goldilocks zone in terms of wealth is somewhere between 5 and 50 million net worth, you know? And I think you can do pretty much anything that you want at that level of wealth, but you don't have a lot of the pain that comes with it.

1:08:12And, you know, you can order from the left side of the menu. You know, an unexpected bill is not a problem. You just don't think about it, but you don't have a lot of the pain associated with it, a lot of the responsibility, all the people coming to you, all the security, or like you said, all of that sort of stuff. So, and, you know, I think about what's that Goldilocks zone for building muscle, for exercise, for time off. Like how much time should I work? Should I work 80 hours a week or should I work four hours a week? So, what's that Goldilocks zone? So, I look for that in all parts of life.

1:08:47I'm going to take that on. I'm going to definitely write that down on my whiteboard to remind myself to look for the Goldilocks zone. I like it. Alan, thanks so much, man. It's been great chatting with you, spending time with you. I'm sure we're going to see each other in person soon. But thank you so much for offering so much value to our audience. And as I'll mention later on in the episode as well, Lean Marketing is a book you want to pick up. If you haven't picked up his first book, A One-Page Marketing Plan, pick that up as well with Lean Marketing. Just add it to your cart because it's worth it.

1:09:17I always say that books are something that you should just give yourself a blank check on. You're never going to go wrong buying a book. The value you get from a book that's less than$20,$25, whatever it might be, is going to pay back dividends. I mean, it's a lunch, for crying out loud. So, I highly recommend you check it out. Alan's a really thoughtful guy, but most of all, is able to kind of take complex ideas, make them simple, make them actionable. Alan, you're the man. Appreciate it. Thanks so much, Emma. I absolutely loved this conversation. Alan is incredible. He's thoughtful. He's down to earth.

1:09:54and he knows his stuff. I highly recommend you pick up his book, Lean Marketing, and you can pick it up at leanmarketing.com. Amazing URL, by the way. I have the book. I can't wait to go through it cover to cover a few times. You might hear me on this podcast talk about it because of the impact it's made on my business. You should also check out all the other things that Alan is up to. The book is just one part of the equation, as you heard in the discussion. If you want to take things beyond. If you want to take the next steps, go to leanmarketing.com. He's got free resources on how to score your business marketing and more, as well as some programs he offers you may be interested in.

1:10:31Alan, thanks so much for your time and for creating great, great information, great knowledge through the OnePage Marketing Plan, through Lean Marketing. I loved every moment of our discussion. That wraps up today's episode, guys. If you love what you hear, If you appreciate what you just listened to, the best way to say thanks is to hit subscribe, to follow the podcast on your favorite podcast app right now, whether it's Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Hit follow so you can tell the algorithm, hey, this show is pretty great. By doing that, by just pressing a single button, by tapping on your screen, you help our show in an incredible way that allows us to grow so that we can continue to provide practical business lessons and discussions like today.

1:11:13Thank you in advance for doing that. Before I go, I want to leave you with this. One of the things that Alan Dipp taught me is to really think about what you're about to do before you do it. This is something I just learned from him by being his friend and spending time with him, is that he's somebody that likes to measure twice and then cut once. And sometimes as eager entrepreneurs, we just want to get started and do it. And we don't really allow ourselves to plan or to organize our thoughts and to think, what is the best way to attack this so that I don't have to waste energy, I don't have to waste time.

1:11:46If you're the kind of person that just goes and does things and figures things out, you might want to lean on that a little bit. Lean on what I learned is that, hey, take a step back, maybe you write a few notes in your notebook, plan the order of operations, and then execute. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll check you in the next episode. I'll see you then. Take care.

1:12:11Thank you.