MBA2533 Extended Interview: Peter Baines - How To Create a Value-First Charity

0:05Hey, welcome back to the$100 MBA show. Today's episode is a very special one. We have an extended interview and extended conversation with Peter Baines. And he's going to teach you how to create a value first charity. What is a value first charity? Who's Peter Baines? And we're going to get into that in a second. A value first charity is a great concept. If you're looking to build an organization to raise money, charity, a non-for-profit, or maybe you want to have a charitable arm or aspect to your business, kind of like how Tom's doing his shoes or Orby Parker with glasses. Maybe you want to be charitable in some way, but value first charity thinks about the person that actually is going to donate and says, Hey, how can I be valuable to that person?

0:49How can I actually give them something of value? So they're actually happy to consume that piece of value. And in exchange, I am charging them. And then from that, I'm able to help my organization, right? So for example, instead of saying, Hey, can I have a donation of a hundred dollars for my charity, you say, hey, how about you give me$100 and you're invited to this VIP party that's going to have food and drinks and all this kind of stuff. And after your costs, that money is going to go towards your charity. Now, why is this more appealing? Why does this actually work better than actually just asking for a donation?

1:25Because it doesn't really help the person that is giving the money. Now, I know that we're trying to do something good and this is for charity, but that's not a sustainable business model for any kind of organization, let alone a not-for-profit or somebody who's trying to raise money. You want to be able to continually give value to somebody so they feel like, oh, I'm getting so much out of this. And the charity part, that's cool and everything, but really I'm signing up because it is a great party. So we're going to sit down with Peter Baines, who is an incredible person, somebody I met through a charity organization called Hands Across the Water.

2:00I did a charity bike ride for Hands Across the Water back in April of 2024. And it was an incredible experience. I said, I have to sit down with this guy and have him on the podcast. Peter Baines spent 22 years with the New South Wales Police Force in Australia as a forensic investigator. Due to his unique skills, he spent many of his years going internationally, being deployed to countries like Indonesia, Thailand, Saudi Arabia, Japan, to deal with crisis situations and figure out what happened after the devastation, When people have passed, people have died. He also worked for Interpol in Lyon to lead an international counterterrorism project focusing on CBRN.

2:41So he's got a ton of experience in these devastation crisis situations. So he knows how to deal with pressure. But how did he get into charity work? Well, back in 2004, he was commissioned to go to Thailand so that he can help out after the Boxing Day tsunami that was devastating. Over 275 ,000 people died in that tsunami. and Peter's job, he was commissioned, he was sent out to identify the bodies. And in that tour, in that moment in time, he realized there were so many children that were left without their parents. There were kids coming to this temple area that I actually visited myself. It was this temple grounds where there was a biggest place where they can actually stack all these bodies, unfortunately.

3:26And he would see the children come by and say, you know, looking for their parents. And in that moment, you realize, wow, there are so many children that don't have the support, the protection, the food, the education they're going to need because they lost their families. And that's how Hands Across Water started. In our conversation today, he's going to show you how he didn't know anything about starting a charity, but figured it out and walk you through the steps so that if you want to start a charity or any charitable part of your business, some things to look out for, some things to consider and ways to make it successful.

3:59All right, Peter, great to have you here. I absolutely love what you do with Hands Across the Water. I was first introduced to Hands Across the Water when I went on the bike ride with Dale Beaumont's Business Blueprint. It's a funny story because we were having dinner about a year before the ride and he was like, hey, do you want to go on this bike ride we do every year? This is our 10th year. I was like, oh, that sounds great. I was like, that's future Omar's problem. And And and then lo and behold, a year passed and it was April 2024. And we went on this bike ride. I was like five weeks out of breaking my leg, but I still was able to manage it.

4:39But through that experience, I learned a ton about your organization, Hands Across the Water. I obviously heard the story and understood what we were writing for and what this organization is all about. But our audience has not heard that story. And you tell it so well. I'd love for you to take a moment to tell us what inspired you to kind of start this charity and what are some of the kind of experiences that led to starting the charity itself? Yeah, sure. Thanks, mate. And it was great to have you in the coal on the ride. And, you know, it's always interesting to hear people's journey as to what it was that got them onto the bike and and and then the overall experience.

5:21And I've got to say, it's one of my highlights of doing the rides each year is watching people have their first time experience. Because I think we imagine what experiences will look like in all sorts of areas of our life. But it's not until you have the experience that you can truly understand what it's about. And for me, you know, watching first time riders finish the ride is something pretty special. But let me answer the question and I'll answer the question with a little bit of history. So for 20 odd years, I was a forensic practitioner with New South Wales Police here in Australia. And my role was to attend and investigate scenes of major crime and collect the forensic evidence, present that evidence to the court for them to find in criminal trials or coronial inquests or so forth.

6:17And I progressed through the Forensic Services Group and I guess things really changed when I took a promotion, came back to Sydney as a detective inspector because I spent 10 years living and working in regional New South Wales in Tamworth. And not long after returning to Sydney, there was the Bali bombings in 2002. And because of the specialist skills that I had, I was asked to go to Bali to be part of the leadership team that was identifying those who died. And, you know, I think it was really terrorism on our doorstep and it was on a scale that we'd certainly not seen before. It was 13 months after 9-11 and I think the world was facing something it hadn't before.

7:11And deploying into Bali, I spent my time there leading the identification and repatriation of those who died. And there was a skill set that was put to practice and teams that were formed on a national level across many disciplines. because as the police were in charge, but we have forensic dentists, biologists and so forth who attend to make up that team. And then it was only two years later that there was the Boxing Day tsunami of 2004 and they would claim around that 250 ,000 lives across Southeast Asia, so many of them in Banda Aceh and Indonesia. and in Thailand there was 5 ,395 bodies that were recovered and about half of them were international guests or foreign nationals and the international community responded and I was called to again lead the international response in the identification of those who died and the very difference between Bali and Thailand was Thailand was a humanitarian response, where Bali was a criminal investigation.

8:28And so for 2005, I spent multiple rotations in and out of Thailand as part of the international contingent. And then it was at the end of my time in Thailand where I met a group of kids, Thai kids who'd all lost their families. They were living in a tent within a temple. And I realized I couldn't change what had happened with these kids who'd lost their families, lost their parents, lost their homes. But it felt within my capacity to do something around what happened next. So I returned to Australia and made a commitment. And that commitment was to start the charity Hands Across the Water and see if I could raise some money.

9:15And the interesting thing, Omar, is that it was a step into this world of philanthropy, of charity, which I'd never been before. I was just a forensic policeman, you know, and then taking the leap into this space, which I knew nothing of, had no experience, didn't come from a family or network that had a lot of money. And I started because it felt the right thing to do, but, you know, was very naive in the starting of it, I have to admit. This is so interesting because so many people that start businesses that that night, night, night, night, night, night, night, night, night, what am I saying?

9:50Not being naive. Yeah, there it is. Really helps you because what you don't know really helps you kind of take that first leap, because if you knew all the challenges and all the problems that you would face, you probably wouldn't start. I have so many questions just off that story. The first one is why did you decide to start a charity and not be like, oh, you know, that was really touching. I'm going to just find some other charity or find other people to give money to. Like most people, when they see they visit a third world country, they visit a developing country and they go home and they get that perspective.

10:24They feel like, OK, let me find somewhere I can donate or some way I can serve them. They don't think starting a charity. Like, why was that the thing that you felt like that's the impact I want to make? Yeah, really good question. And I guess part of it was I didn't have money to donate. So it wasn't as though that I was sitting on this nest egg or I had money that I could simply donate to a charity. It would be the case I had to raise the money. And I guess looking at the circumstances at the time, you touched on it, being naive served to me well. And what happened in Thailand, which is not dissimilar to what happens in other areas in response to crisis and disaster.

11:06And I've worked in, you know, several countries, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Thailand, after, you know, large scale disasters. And there's a consistent thing that happens in that immediate aftermath. There's lots of people who respond. government agencies, corporates, NGOs, charities, and they turn up and put their flag in the ground and say, we're here, but too many leave too quickly. And whilst there is absolutely a need for those organisations who respond and address the immediate needs around food and sanitation and water and so forth. I was responding and the time I made the decision, it was 12 months on.

11:55And a lot of the international large charities had already been and gone. It's basically when the media stops covering it. Well, and they've raised their money because the crisis element is gone. So you could say I was a bit late to the party and it was 12 months after the event almost. I started the organization in October 2005. So it was 10 months after the event. And as I say, a lot of organization is gone. And it was the case that the kids that we were supporting or the kids that I met living in the temple, there wasn't a natural organization to partner with. And so there was a gap. So I filled it by starting a charity myself.

12:34You know, we visited that temple on the last day of our last leg of the ride, riding into the home. It was a very sobering moment for all of us. It was about 70 of us, 70 riders and looking and imagining what it was like for you to see all the unfortunate dead bodies that were there piled up and the concept of children looking for their parents. You know, it's a heavy, heavy moment, you know, and we were not there with you and it happened, but we were there, you know, on the ride and just being in on the same ground as you were, you really understand the impact of that event on all these people's lives and how much impact you're making with this charity, which is really notable.

13:18So I just want to kind of just touch on that. The other thing I wanted to touch on is, you know, many people that leave their job, their careers and start a business, start an organization, start a charity like yourself, they have skills that they that are transferable, that they can use from their previous career. What were some of the skills that you had as somebody from law enforcement, somebody who had quite high rank and leadership skills? How did that help you as you started the charity? Yeah, it's an interesting thing, I guess, when I look at what the transferable skills were. And sometimes we do ourselves a disservice when we don't acknowledge the skills that we have and what we can bring into business.

14:00And I think one of the things that, and we touched on it earlier, is the scale of where things end up as to can be daunting and off-putting to starting. And I think that if we wait until we've got all of the answers to all of the possible questions before we start, we'll never start. And I think there's a real parallel to the identification work we did with those bodies at that very temple that you're talking about. and I recall sitting on a step at the end of one of the long hot days and sitting on that step and all we could see was the decomposing bodies of three and a half thousand people in this one temple and there was an Australian pathologist who sat there and said all we can do is a token effort because this is just so big but the thing is we started and we started putting in place a process.

14:55We started the postmortems. We started the identification work. And 12 months on Omar, we'd return over 5 ,000 bodies to the families who'd lost someone. So I think it's fair to say it was so much more than a token effort. And I think that's the same with the charity, where we are now and what we've achieved and the scale and size that we are. If I'd thought that was what I had to get to, it would have been too daunting and I wouldn't have started. So the skills that certainly came across from the work I'd done was around that leadership. It was around that problem solving. It was around, I think, just, you know, taking action and not letting the excuses get in the way and deciding, well, this was a problem that needed to be addressed.

15:40And, and, you know, I'd sorted out along the way, as opposed to having the blueprint, which would take me through to the finish, because that certainly wasn't the case. Yeah, I mean, definitely. I think what you mentioned about, you know, just using what you have to get to the next day. And that's really what business is. And that's what leadership is about. It's just like I have to do or I can do right now. And sort of I'm going to build the parachute as I jump out of the plane. So definitely I can resonate with that in my career as an entrepreneur. And I'm sure everybody listening as well. now you know your charity is based in thailand you know you're registered in thailand and australia new zealand as well many of our listeners might have team members from different parts of the world different cultures different nuances from those cultures you know different you know it might be a language barrier what are some of the challenges that you face setting up your charity and you know building your team all that kind of stuff with a different culture with a different type of workforce?

16:42Yeah, I think the challenges that I think that we faced early on are challenges that have only grown in time. And it's not around operating in across cultures or across different countries or having remote workforces. And the very nature of our work meant that ever since we've existed and for the first 10 years, there was no staff, There was no team. It was just me and then the board of directors. And it's only that last 10 years that we've really grown and both here in Australia and internationally. And our team has always worked remotely before COVID made that common. And that was just because of the nature of our operations.

17:29But I think the biggest challenge that we faced, and as I say, which has grown is relevance. And if I'd asked you, Nicole, and so many of those people in that business blueprint audience before you did the ride, what's the relevance to you of children in Thailand when it comes to charity? And I think if we're all a bit honest, we'd say quite low, and if at all. And because Thailand is not the first country Australia goes to, Thailand is not an underdeveloped country. It's a developing country. And, you know, to be honest, the work that we're doing, you've been there, you've seen the kids. They're not kids who are questioning where their next meal is going to come from.

18:20They're not on the, you know, the edge of poverty and going to die if we don't do something immediately. So it's a story that faces challenges because when people, and people, business, corporates, when they look at making decisions around what charity they should support, for the most people, they start at home and they say, well, we're going to support local charities and so forth. And, you know, it's always interesting because we're such a global community now. So for us, we had to be relevant. And so someone like yourself, what we had to do was return value to those who choose to come and ride.

19:07And I think the key to what we've done as a charity that has seen year on year growth and continues to grow is because we seek to provide value first. to those who engage with us rather than seeking to get their dollars. Because it's an interesting thing in the charity sector. If I ask you for a donation and you give me$100, you give me$1 ,000 or$50, that's kind of the end of the conversation because I've asked you and you've given me something. And there's not a lot of return to you in that. And it's really the least engaging form of giving is just making a donation. But if I take you on a five-day journey through Thailand that results in personal growth, professional growth, builds connections, builds a community, you start to look at this and say, if I say to you, what were the top things that you took from the ride?

20:06You'd say, you know, personal belief, I achieved something I didn't think might've been possible. I shared it with my partner. I had this amazing time with colleagues. So immediately, there's a return to you. And so when people think about coming back, they say, I had this incredible experience, built these new business connections. I had time to think about my business. I focused on myself. And for entrepreneurs, those setting up a business or starting or running their business, time for themselves is one of the things that is a low commodity, you know, because they're so busy on for business.

20:40So I think for us, it's always been the relevance is a challenge, but we just found another way to address it. And that's meeting the needs and bringing value back to those who engage with us. Yeah. I just want to take a moment here and just go over that again, because it's such a gem, because you're really focusing on how can I make this experience not only worthwhile, but more than just helping the children, right? Like that's the end goal. We want to help the children. We want to help the charity. We're going to get there. But in order to get there, we need to kind of package it, sell it, present it in a way that is appealing to the donor.

21:23And I think a lot of people don't get that. Like a lot of people don't understand that, oh, if I say I'm selling shoes and then, you know, you buy a pair of shoes and I'll give you a pair shoes to the poor, that is not very sustainable because, you know, I'm buying the shoes anyway. It doesn't really make a difference. I can buy shoes here. I can buy shoes there. I can buy shoes down the street. So personally, from my experience, for those who are listening, you know, like when I was approached when Dale told me about the ride and, you know, we got the emails from hands across water. Okay. What do we have to do?

21:52It's, you know,$3 ,000 for the logistics of the ride. And that would include the hotel, the meals. And, and I was like, okay, that's very reasonable. Okay. And it didn't actually hit me until right before the ride that, oh, this is actually helping the children. Like I knew in the back of my mind, this is for charity, but really what you did is you created an event. I can't reproduce. I can't reproduce the experience of going to Thailand, knowing all the great spots, understanding how to ride the bikes in the safe way, renting the bikes, meeting all these people that were on the ride, other entrepreneurs, you know, having these chats, having local meals, you know, understanding all the cultural nuances and culture.

22:34And we're there during the water festival, Sancron, and we wanted to make sure that we did that right. Like, I can't pull this off on my own. So the value that you're offering me as an entrepreneur is huge because it's like, well, I can't do this anywhere else. So I guess this is the only place I can go. Like you're dealing with no competition. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So from the other side of the table here, I just wanted to share that with you and those who are listening, because for those who are listening to this conversation, how can you create that kind of value in your business, in your charity, in your work that the end user feels like this is a hell yeah.

23:09Like there's a no brainer, you know, and I have to say you did do that. And I understand I'm going, you know, 10 years in of this ride and, um, and it's, it's been perfected over the years. And I'm sure year one was, uh, you know, the beta version and it wasn't as polished, but I just wanted to kind of touch on that in a moment. That's actually very brilliant and super useful for everybody who's listening. Yeah, cool. Thank you, mate. And thank you for those kind words. And I think we've been brought up that when we talk about charity, that we should start from the position that what we give and there's no expectation of return.

23:42And when we're talking, this is obviously a business chat, business community. And right now in Australia, we're in a cost of living crisis. And so families and businesses are looking at their discretionary spend and saying, well, what can I wind back either temporarily or at risk permanently? And when we look at a business, for example, whether it's small or large or a family budget, something like charity for most people would be a discretionary spend and we say we'll have to rewind that back right now a business they might wind back their investment in learning and development they might postpone that conference that they were going to have or that team off site because business will continue without that so it's a discretionary spend and here's the risk and here's the kicker for charity.

24:33If we're in a cost of living crisis and people wind back their commitments, what's also happening is those vulnerable people within the community are leaning into the charities and looking for more support because this cost of living crisis has hit them harder. So we've got greater demands and we've got less supply. So what we've got to do, and this is a work that one, the philosophy I've brought to hands, but also the work I do with organizations and businesses is turn that commitment or the support of charity from a cost center into a profit center. because if we can say to you, if you look at your CFO or the business owner looks at their P &L and all they see is red when it comes to charity, well, they go, let's wind that back a bit.

25:28Just for now, it's times are a bit hard, but if we can help them turn that into a profit center, then you'll continue to invest, would you not? It's no different than any other profit line in your business. So the reason that we need to do that from a charity point of view is because if I can help you as a supporter of my charity grow your business, well, then you'll invest more. And so the pie becomes bigger. So we can end up benefiting by your benefit. By you benefiting, we will benefit too. And some of those areas where charity can help business become a profit center, turn that cost center into profit centers, things like customer retention, staff attraction, brand differentiation, new markets.

26:20And it really speaks to the culture of the organization. And there is so much research out there, Omar, that says, you know, people, when they're making this rise of conscious consumerism with people wanting to do business with organizations they like. And if you as a business can demonstrate, I'm working with a real estate company right now. Now, what sets them apart from their competitors? Well, it's not the commission that they pay their staff because they all pay commission. It's not the marketing because they all invest in marketing. You look at them and there's very little difference between them.

26:58But if you're considering listing your home for sale and you look at an agency and go, well, hang on, this agency's really investing in this space. They're doing some great things. They're a company that I feel aligned to. I'm going to list with them because that's the only differentiator between all of the real estate companies that are doing exactly the same thing, right? And so I think it's so important that one, those considering investing and supporting charity do it from a mindset, well, this needs to be good for our business and turn it into a profit centre and have the kind of conversations where there are the metrics, there are the KPIs, because you don't go into a business relationship with another provider without any clear understanding of the cost and the return.

27:49But charity, you just say, well, here's a net portion of my profit that I'll give you. I hope you do well with it and I'll feel good for a little while. But, you know, it's our role as a charity is to elevate that relationship because if you do well, you'll stay. And, you know, we go back to this bike ride that Dale did, started 10 years ago, and he continues to do it because it's an offering for his members, which is so different. you know it brings the community so much stronger so and it helps his retention it helps his community to stay together because they're meeting every year and they're they're enjoying their time together they build memories together i love this idea of like if you're thinking about starting a charity how can you provide opportunities for the companies or for the businesses that are going to be sponsoring you ways that are already aligned with their goals already aligned with what they're spending their money on.

28:45So a good example you just gave is like, you know, the bike ride and they have a P &L. Why not two birds, one stone? You're going to do a team retreat instead of doing your team retreat out in Fiji. Why don't you do it here in Thailand? We're going to do a bike ride part of that. You're going to be able to help this cause. It's going to mean more to your team. And that is an expense they're paying for anyway. And it's probably an expense that's non-negotiable because the team is looking forward to it. So it's a great concept if you're thinking about having a charitable part of your business or starting a charity is like, how can I provide something that actually they want?

29:19Like I want to pay money for this and the by-product and the domino effect is I'm helping, you know, the cause. The only caveat I'd say to that is that it needs to be meaningful and not tokenism because I think if it's done just to show that we've done something, I think it can have a bigger negative impact than not having done it at all. So I think that whilst there should be a business return and you should be looking at that, I think that it needs to be done in a meaningful way because I've been on these types of retreats and so forth with conferences who say, let's have a CSR component to it.