Supercommunication Expert: Ask These Questions To Make People Open Up and Connect With Anyone. A Convo With Charles Duhigg

22:51And their app is easy to use. So when I'm dead tired after a long flight and I'm trying to check into my accommodation, it's super simple. just pull up my booking and show it to the host. So if your vacation rental isn't listed on booking.com, it could be invisible to millions of travelers searching the platform. Don't miss out on consistent bookings and global reach. Head over to booking.com and start your listing today. Get seen, get booked on booking.com. I want to talk about empathy and business because empathy is a big recurring theme in your book and why empathy is so important in communication, but why is it important in business besides just being, you know, a decent human being?

23:34Charles Duhigg:Yeah. It's because empathy is at the core of how we learn to trust each other. So to explain empathy, I need to talk a little bit about vulnerability, right? Because vulnerability is this misunderstood word. We hear the word vulnerability and we think about like people crying on each other's shoulders or talking about your moms. That's not what vulnerability is. What vulnerability is, is if I tell you something that you could judge, it sets off a neural cascade in my brain. And I might not care about your judgment. I might say something like, I think Star Trek is better than Star Wars. And it doesn't matter if you agree with me or not.

24:13Charles Duhigg:But as soon as I say something that you could judge, I have this instinct. It's again, hardwired into our brains. We can't stop it to pay very close attention to how you react. And in that moment, if instead of judging me, you withhold your judgment and even better, if you tell me something that I could judge about you, then what you're doing is you're exhibiting empathy. And at that moment, we will feel closer to each other. Our brains have evolved to be on a hair trigger to look for threats. And the way I test whether you are threatening or not is to tell you something you could judge about me that's small and not that important and see if you do judge me or if you exhibit empathy and you withhold judgment and you tell me something about yourself that I could judge about you.

25:02Charles Duhigg:If that happens at that moment, even if we disagree with each other, even if we're negotiating over what's the right prices, even if we're fighting over who gets this assignment, at that moment, we will feel more connected to each other and we trust each other more. And because business is built on trust, this ability to empathize, this ability to show the other person that you will withhold judgment is at the core of how we convince others to trust us. I love that. Let me ask a question. Like, is a good example, like let's say, for example, you're having a sales conversation and somebody says, I think this is too expensive.

25:38And you say to them, well, I actually thought that too when I started working here until I started to see the success stories that came about from the service. Can I share some of those success stories with you? That's perfect.

25:51Charles Duhigg:What I love about that. Now, the one thing I would say is that could even raise it up is to ask a question, but you're exactly right. So this person said, this is too expensive. And instead of saying, oh, you're a cheapskate or you don't really understand the value of this. Yeah. What I say is I say, you know what? I thought the exact same thing. Like when I first started selling this, I was like, how am I going to sell this? This is too expensive. But then I talked to all these people and they helped convince me about why it's so valuable to them. And you know what? Actually, I was wrong. Like I'm not a very good salesperson because I'm telling you that I was wrong at figuring out what this was worth.

26:28Charles Duhigg:When we do that, now the other person might not be convinced by us. They might say, oh, this just seems like you're trying to sell me something. But they are going to trust you more. They're going to listen to you more closely. And particularly if you ask them a question, and especially what's known as a deep question, right? And this gets to what your dad did. What we know about super communicators is that they ask 10 to 20 times more questions than the average person. And some of those questions are just like invitations, right? Like, oh, you know, what'd you think about that? Or, oh, did you see that movie last week?

27:00Charles Duhigg:I'm just inviting you into the conversation. But some of the questions are what are known as psychology as deep questions. And a deep question is something that asks about my values or my beliefs or my experiences. And that can sound a little intimidating, right? But it's as simple as like if you meet someone who's a doctor, for instance, instead of saying, oh, what hospital do you work at? You can ask, oh, what made you decide to become a doctor? Right? That second question, that draws this person out. It gives them a chance to tell you who they really are, what they value, what experiences they had.

27:33Charles Duhigg:And so very similarly, if I'm talking to someone and they say, look, I can't afford this. The first thing I would do is to ask a deep question and say, I totally understand that. Tell me like how you think about evaluating value. Like what's the thing for you when you do spend a large amount on a product or when you do commit yourself to an investment where you feel like this is a big investment? Like what's the thing that's going on inside your head that makes that feel right to you? Right. And when I ask that, that's a deep question. When I ask that and I listen to the other person, what they're going to do is they're going to tell me how they see the world.

28:09Charles Duhigg:And at that moment, much like your dad talking to some people who want to buy a car, I'm going to know how to sell to them. I'm going to know what aspects of my product I should highlight for them because it's really important to them. Yeah, I want to add that when I was reading that portion in the book about asking deeper questions, it really got me thinking, am I just asking these questions that elicit autopilot responses? Like the question of like, I work at this hospital. Instead of like, am I asking questions for them that they have to pause and think for a moment? Where they're like, oh, why did I become a doctor?

28:44Well, I think my parents kind of convinced me, you know?

28:47Charles Duhigg:I think that's exactly right. And I think that the way that we find those questions is instead of asking people about the facts of their life, we ask them about how they feel about their life. Right? Wait, wait, like for instance, Omar, you've been podcasting for a while. I'm sure it takes a ton of time. Like, what is it about a podcast that you really enjoy? Like, why do you think that you enjoy doing, spending your time this way, as opposed to any of the other ways you could spend your time? I love it because I am forced to become a better person so that I can share what I learned along the way.

29:17Charles Duhigg:Yeah. Yeah. And, and actually you just told me so much about who you are, right? You're someone who like values self-improvement. You also value feeling like a good person. Like there's something about that sense of improvement and of struggle that to you feels rewarding. Because what you could say is you could say, actually, I'm doing this because I get paid a huge amount of money, right? Or I like doing this because I get recognized on the street sometimes. And then you'd be telling me about other things that you value. you. But just asking that question, asking you how you feel about why do you podcast a why question often is the way that we invite someone to tell us who they really are.

29:58Charles, we're going to shift gears a little bit. We're going to play a little game. Okay. Okay. This game is called super communicator or bad communicator. Okay. I love it. I love this. So I'm going to name a person, a well-known person. And just based on what you know, I want you to tell me if they're a super communicator or a bad communicator. And tell me why in one sentence. You ready? I love it.

30:19Charles Duhigg:And I will warn you, oftentimes we don't know how people communicate in real life based on their public persona. But I'll try my best. Let's just say publicly and what you know based on your interaction. Okay. All right. First person, Kamala Harris. So that's a great question. So I've seen her in person before. I actually think she's not a great communicator. And every time I've seen her, and again, this might be completely different if you're one-on-one with her, if you're someone who's having a real conversation. But whenever I've seen her working in a crowd or on a stage, part of me feels like she's reading from a script in her head.

30:57Charles Duhigg:She's not asking me questions because she's curious about how I might react. She's not proving to me that she's listening to me. And I think that's one of the reasons why the election turned out the way it did, is that people didn't feel like she was super authentic. Next, Chris Williamson. I think he's great. I was on his podcast. And I think that Chris is a great communicator because one of the things he does is he's actually very quick to be vulnerable. If you mention something from your own life, he goes there with you. And he says, I'm sorry to hear that. Let me tell you about a time that I made a mistake that's similar.

31:32Charles Duhigg:and that's really, really valuable. Elon Musk. Ooh, that's a good question, right? Because I would actually say that Elon Musk is a pretty good communicator. Now, we might not like what he's saying, but I feel like he's being authentic with us on a regular basis. I mean, if anything, he's being too authentic and too honest all the time because every crazy idea that moves through his brain, he feels like he needs to express to the world. But I do think that there's something to be said there about why that authenticity resonates with so many people. The truth is, there are a lot of people for whom Elon Musk can do no wrong.

32:09Charles Duhigg:Even if they don't agree with him, they just think the world of him. And it's because they feel like they have a real relationship with him. Like they really know who he is because he's really good at authentic communication. New York City Mayor Zaron Mamdani. Oh, Mamdani is actually a great communicator. I have to say, like, for anyone who hasn't seen him in person, one of the things that Mom Donnie does that's really, really good is he works really hard to prove that he's listening to you. So it's interesting. The fact that he always wears the same dark suit, right? The entire campaign, he was never in anything besides this dark suit.

32:46Charles Duhigg:He's actively showing people, I know that I'm young. I know that you think I'm young. I'm going to try and prove that I deserve this by not giving up the formality. Like, I know I need to prove this to you. I'm proving to you that I'm paying attention to what you think of me and how you think of me. And I think that's a really powerful tactic that people can use to really connect with others. Kanye West. I mean, again, like Elon Musk, I think he's being authentic, right? Just because you're a good communicator doesn't mean you're going to say smart stuff. But he does do a good job of like getting across all the crazy that's moving through his head.

33:27Charles Duhigg:Oh, boy. Last one. Malala Yousafzai. Oh, I actually thought you were going to ask about Donald Trump. Can I answer for Donald Trump? Yeah. So, OK, let me let me preface this by saying I'm not a fan of Trump. I think what's going on inside in the U.S. and what internationally is really worrisome to me right now. And it just feels very anxiety producing. Yeah. But I've been to a number of Trump rallies and I've been in rooms with Trump where it's a small audience. And one of the things that people underestimate about Trump is he is a great communicator. So if you go to a Trump rally, one of the things that happens is that he's proving that he's listening to the crowd.

34:08Charles Duhigg:So he'll say something. And if the crowd like claps or roars their approval, he will lean into that. And he'll start just saying more and more things about whatever he was talking about. That's why he says so many crazy things is because he's listening to the audience. He's proving that he's listening to the audience. He's leaning in and matching the audience. So he goes off script all the time. And one on one, he's a very charming person. I mean, he's a total egomaniac. He just talks about himself the entire time. He'll he'll never he'll never ask you a profound question about yourself, but he will ask you a lot of questions and he'll ask you deep questions.

34:47Charles Duhigg:Now, there are always deep questions sort of about him. Why do you think they're treating me so bad? Like, why do you think the media doesn't treat me better? It's actually kind of a deep question, right? Like, what's my analysis of what's going on inside the media right now? It's all about you, but it is still a deep question. It gives him a chance to see who I am. Yeah, yeah. And there's a performative aspect of him. People forget that he was a reality star for many years. He has a star on Hollywood Boulevard. People forget that. Like, you know, he knows how to perform. He's been an actor his whole life, right?

35:20Charles Duhigg:He's been performing the Donald Trump character since he was in his 20s. Yeah. Now, what's worrisome is that, as anyone knows, it's worrisome when your performance becomes who you think you really are. Right. I think many people who perform roles, they kind of know, like, yeah, that's like 80 percent who I am. But there's a 20 percent that's more real. It's more deep. Hmm. And I do wonder with people like Elon Musk and Donald Trump, if they've forgotten about that 20 percent and they start believing their own kind of patter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Off camera, before we started this conversation, we were talking about, you know, why all this hoopla and hate for the Super Bowl halftime show where, you know, Bad Bunny is singing in Spanish.

36:08It's just Spanish, guys. It's OK. but often I see these pundits that are going off on how I'm saying this is horrible and this is like anti-america and all this other stuff and it's like do you really believe that like do you

36:20Charles Duhigg:are you just you know farming for clicks I mean obviously they're farming for clicks right like and and I feel like if you watch like cable news both on the left and the right people just say like the most extreme things because they know that that's that's what draws attention but then And there are people who start believing their own BS, right? I think of like Tucker Carlson, who like just 20 years ago, like Tucker was a journalist. He was a really thoughtful guy. And now he's so simplistic and he's so incendiary. And I think part of it is that he just fell in love with the character he had created.

37:03Charles Duhigg:and as a result his version of authenticity is very shallow and it's a very powerful force when that character pays the bills absolutely absolutely right you should like the you should never try and convince someone to disavow an ideology that makes them rich because it's always going to be a losing battle yeah totally all right thanks so much for playing with me in that game that was fantastic like I had a great time. I want to ask about, have you ever thought about a conversation you wish you can redo back in your life? Oh, all the time. Is there one that sticks out and why? So, and I want to ask you the same question because I'm curious what you would say.

37:44Charles Duhigg:Yeah. All the time. Like I just think about, so my, my dad passed away about, I guess, seven years ago now. And there are so many, like, there's so many conversations that I think of where I was like, why didn't I spend more time talking to him? Like he mentioned that this interesting thing. And instead of asking him a question about it, what, like, I just like kind of barreled through to talk about the thing I wanted to talk about. And like, I would give anything to go back and have those conversations, right? Like when, when you lose a parent, all you can think about is the, is the, the conversation you wish you could have with them today and how sad you are that you can't have that conversation.

38:24Charles Duhigg:But also with my kids, I have a 14-year-old and a 17-year-old. And there's a lot of times that they said something that looking back on it, I was like, oh, I could have gone deeper with them. I could have asked them why they felt that way, or I could have asked them what it meant to them. And instead, I just tried to solve their problem for them. Yeah. So there's lots of conversations that I wish I could go back and redo. What about you? Oh, there are some conversations when I was growing up that I wish I had like you know growing up my parents are immigrants from Egypt migrated to the U.S. and you know when you're immigrants you got to study you got to work hard because you know you can't mess this up we sacrificed too much for you to throw this away with a liberal arts degree right you have to do something with this that makes money but we never actually had a conversation about like what are the possibilities in this thing called life it was more of like you know just we have a saying in arabic it says like walk beside the wall like just be safe walk beside the wall don't create any fuss don't create any don't kick up dust and just kind of um you know play your role in society and try to be productive right and as i grew older and i had a a decade where i was a school teacher because i walked beside the wall and i just yeah okay everybody needs teachers i'm gonna become a school teacher and i was a school teacher for 10 years and throughout those 10 years I love the experience and I learned so much and it's informed so much of what I do.

39:50But I started to discover this whole world of people that create things out of thin air called entrepreneurs. I was like, what is this craziness that people just create businesses and make money and travel and come up with ideas? And then I started to realize, like, there are no rules in the world. Like, you can do whatever you want. And I'd never had this conversation before with anybody. now you know i recently visited my sister who lives in egypt and she's got um four kids and they're all in their 20s and i try to have these conversations with them because i never had this conversation i literally tell like you can literally do whatever you want like you can achieve anything you like you know like don't let anybody think say or you're behind or whatever the possibility all these people that you look up to all these people that have achieved things you know they didn't listen to all the naysayers and they just figured it out you know and i think that is needs to be kind of said and that conversation i wish i had yeah yeah i think

40:48Charles Duhigg:that's really profound and and very very apt that it's it's oftentimes particularly with our parents it's hard right and i think for for immigrant parents it's even more difficult because they have made so many sacrifices they're so focused on giving their children a better life and so So these conversations that can feel a little navel-gazy, right? Like, what do you want to do with your life? What do you care about? Those can feel unproductive. But what we know and what you know is that those are actually the most productive conversations we can have. Because if you are optimizing for the wrong thing, if you are optimizing to be a teacher, if you're optimizing to walk besides the wall, then all of that work is for nothing.

41:35Charles Duhigg:because you could have chosen a better goal. You could have chosen a goal that feels more appropriate to you. I'll actually say, I used to live in Egypt. I lived in Cairo for a year and a half. Amazing. And one of the things that, like, is your sister in Cairo? Is she? Yeah, yeah, she's in Cairo. She's a new Cairo. Oh, oh, oh. So I was in Babalu, down by AUC in Midantarir. Okay. I don't know if, she's probably in Zemelek. She's probably in, like, one of the nicer parts. No, she's in the new, like, it's called the Fifth District. Like it's a, it's a new development, new Cairo. Yeah. Right. Right.

42:06Charles Duhigg:It sounds really nice. Yeah. Like the thing that I love about Egypt post Arab spring is it does feel like there is, and this is true, I think for the whole Middle East to some degree, it does feel like there's this new openness. Right. And like, when I talk to, when I talk to young people in Egypt and in other parts of the Middle East, I do feel like they are asking those kinds of questions about what do I want this world to be as opposed to it's been handed to me. There's only one path I can walk. Totally. Yeah. Self-directed investing, trading, full service wealth management, automated investing, financial planning, thematic investing, retirement planning.

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44:04That's S-Q-U-A-R-E dot com slash G-O slash MBA. Run your business smarter with Square. Get started today. I want to go back to, you mentioned the three buckets, the three types of conversations. And I just want to get a little practical for our audience so they kind of know how to apply this after this episode. So I'm going to give you a situation. I'm going to give you like maybe a little soundbite and you tell me which kind of conversation actually needs to be had in this situation. So the first one is, let's say your co-founder says to you, I think this business is a mistake.

44:43Charles Duhigg:So I think based on that, I would need to ask a question, right? Because they haven't used, they haven't necessarily used an emotional word. They haven't said, I feel like this business is a mistake. I feel like we're wasting our time. They've said, I think. And so the question I would usually ask is, I mean, the simplest one would just be to say, tell me why. Like, tell me why you're feeling that way right now or you're thinking that way right now. And inevitably, they're going to say something like, they're going to say, look, like, you know, we went into X and what we should have done is gone into X, Y.

45:16Charles Duhigg:And I think it's I think it's still time. There's we still have enough time to make this adjustment, but it's going to be hard. But I see this new opportunity. OK, they're in a practical mindset right there. They're talking about making decisions together, making choices about strategy. but they also could say, look, I just, you know, I could have spent the last five years, like in a normal job earning money. I'd already have a bunch of stock options. All this AI stuff is going on and I've missed out on that. And I just feel like disappointed and I feel frustrated that the things haven't. Okay.

45:49Charles Duhigg:So now I know that you're in an emotional mindset, right? You're talking about emotions that you're feeling and I need to meet you there. And that doesn't mean the whole conversation has to be an emotional conversation, But I need to say something like, what I hear you saying is like, you are feeling disappointed that you made the best choices you thought you could make with the information in front of you. And the world has not served up your rewards the way that you deserve. And I hear that. I feel the same way. It is really disappointing. It's a bad beat. It's a bad beat. It's a bad beat. We had bad luck.

46:23Charles Duhigg:But that being said, now, like, let's talk about how to make the best of this. Yeah. Because we can't undo the unfairness of the world. In other words, do I have your permission to move from an emotional conversation to a practical conversation? And now we're matching each other. I love it. What if your partner, your partner in life, says, I feel like we never spend time together? So, okay. What's interesting is that could seem like a practical conversation, right? Like, I feel like we never spend time together, so let's come up with a plan to spend time together. But the fact that she said, or he said, I feel is a real clue that the first thing we have to do is we have to acknowledge what they are feeling because what they're feeling is not like we don't spend time together.

47:09Charles Duhigg:But what they are feeling is I want to spend more time with you and I want you to want to spend more time with me, which probably means that I'm feeling a little ignored or I'm feeling a little left out of all these things that are happening in your life. or I'm feeling overwhelmed because we both have so much work to do, but I'm feeling something. So the first thing I would do, again, I would ask a question, is to say, what do you love about the time we spend together? And what do you feel like keeps us from doing that? So that actually even sounds like a little bit of a practical question, but actually it's an emotional question because I'm asking them, what do you love about spending time together?

47:51Charles Duhigg:And what are the things that are preventing us from that? But how do you feel about those? Right? Like, why are those, why do these exist and are they frustrating to you? So now we're having an emotional conversation together with these practical overtones that allow us to both move into the practical and talk about a plan to make this better. And most of all, you're just having a conversation about it. Yeah. Some people just don't have a conversation. They're just like, yeah, whatever, you know, like just deal with it kind of thing. That's the rail on point. All right. Last situation. This is a bit of a tough one because if people are managing people in person in the office, let's say an employee looks upset and you ask them, you know, is everything OK?

48:31And they say, I'm fine, but they're clearly not fine.

48:35Charles Duhigg:How do you approach the situation? So I think what's really important is, particularly if we are someone's boss or we're the team leader, we want to create opportunities that invite them to tell us what they're thinking and feeling without mandating to describe to us what they're thinking and feeling. And so in a situation like that, if you look really upset and I come up to you and I say, hey, you look upset. Is everything OK? If if you say, yeah, I'm fine, I'm totally fine. What you're telling me is even if there's something upset that's upsetting me, I don't want to discuss it with you, at least not right now.

49:11Charles Duhigg:Right. And it could be something that has nothing to do with work, nothing to do with anything I can help with. Right. It could be that, like, your kid just called and they left their bag at home. and why can't my kid do a better job of remembering stuff in the morning? So what I would say in that situation is say, okay, I'm glad to hear that. Just want you to know that if you do ever want to talk about anything, my door's open and I'd love to talk with you about what's going on. What I'm doing there is I'm inviting them to say, if you want me to match you, if you want to have this kind of conversation, I'm all for it, but I'm not going to force you to do it.

49:51Charles Duhigg:You have control over this discussion as much as I do and I'm going to respect that. Love it. These are great. These are great. And I think everybody who's listening is going to love starting to apply some of this stuff in their life and their work. I want to get a little bit real about my community of entrepreneurs. My friends are all entrepreneurs, our listeners. And some of us are kind of wrapped up in our own delusion. to be quite honest. And I want to talk about, you know, especially when we're like at conferences or we're having like some sort of like speaker dinner or whatever it might be.

50:29Why do we confuse as entrepreneurs? Why do we confuse confidence with connection? Like we often feel like we're having a connection with somebody, but it's just us believing that we're great.

50:41Charles Duhigg:Yeah, that's exactly right. This happens all the time. If you ask people, what is your goal in this conversation, particularly in something like entrepreneurial settings, what they'll often say is they'll say, my goal is to convince the other person that I'm smart. Or my goal is to convince them that I'm successful. Or my goal is to get them interested in my business because I want to ask them to invest. And that's okay. It's okay to have those goals. But what should also be a goal is to say, my goal is to connect with this person. And if you think about who you've connected with in the last month, where you just felt like, oh, this person is so great.

51:21Charles Duhigg:They're probably not the most impressive person that you met in the last month, right? They're probably not the best conversationalist or the funniest person or they didn't have the best idea. But because you connected with them, there's something there for you to build on. You can improve ideas or you can improve pitches together. And so I think what's happening is that oftentimes when we go into a conversation, we know what we want to say, but we spend less time asking ourselves, what do I hope the other person says? Like, what question do I want to ask the other person? What am I hoping that the other person will reveal about themselves that seems meaningful?

52:01Charles Duhigg:We think about ourselves because we have control over ourselves. but we also have control over the conversation and we can be as curious about the other person as we want to be and that's going to help us connect with them you know i chuckled at the start when when you said you know trying to impress the other person and all that kind of stuff i chuckle because that was me that was me for many years and a lot of people ask me like how did it feel when you sold your i had a software company for 10 years and we sold it and got acquired and a lot of people ask me how did it feel when you had this incredible accomplishment and the number one feeling I felt was relief I just felt relief yeah I don't feel that way anymore when I have a dinner I don't feel like I need to prove anything anymore I don't need I feel like I could just be a human being again and just enjoy the conversation just like we're having right now because I for some reason realized oh like all that work and all that sacrifice okay now I'm secure financially but at the same time it's like it didn't really matter didn't it like i was trying to prove something to myself really outside of anybody else and i you know i just want to make it clear i wasn't laughing at anybody that may be feeling that way because i can resonate with that because that that was me for years and it just felt like the sense of all right now i you know there's oftentimes we'll have a conversation with somebody and i feel like they're like kind of on guard and i just i just say flat out buddy i don't want anything from you i'm good yeah just let's have a good meal relax yeah they're so used to get I just want to learn about you.

53:26Charles Duhigg:Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, and that's totally legitimate, right? Like until, until we've proven to ourselves that we are worthy of our own love, it's hard for us to, to believe it. And it's hard for us to relax. But the thing I will say is this, the best conversations that you've had look like a mess. Like if I could get a transcript of the best conversation you had with your spouse, your parents and it lifted them, it would be a mess. It would be people bringing up ideas and then like getting distracted in some other idea and then never coming back to the first idea and interrupting each other.

54:03Charles Duhigg:And, and the words that we use aren't very eloquent, right? They sort of like, we say things in sort of a dumb way, but those are great conversations because they're real. The best conversations are not about eloquence. They are not about saying the smartest thing possible. The best conversations are about saying something that really reveals who you are and showing the other person that you want to understand who they are. That is how we have a great conversation. And when that happens, when I say to someone like, you know, I want to tell you about my product because I think it'd be a great investment for you.

54:41Charles Duhigg:But before we do, I want to tell you like who I am and why I made this thing. And more importantly, I want to understand why you're at this dinner, like why, why you're willing to sit down with me. And, and that'll help me figure out if this is actually a good investment for you. Like, tell me what, what matters to you. That's when we're going to have a real conversation and, and we're going to walk away from that. And even if the person says, this isn't the right investment for me, they're going to feel connected to you and they're going to remember you and they're going to like you more. They're going to remember you.

55:10Charles Duhigg:And so the next time you come up with an investment that does make sense for them, it's going to be so much easier to have that, to get your foot in the door and have that conversation. Totally. When it comes to communication and just investing in becoming a better communicator, how much of it is a superpower now that everybody's just outsourcing communication to AI and those muscles are atrophying? So I don't think they're really atrophying. It's interesting. There's been a bunch of studies done on AI and obviously people are using it a lot. And there's these kind of parasocial relationships, right?

55:42Charles Duhigg:Where people have like AI boyfriends or girlfriends, I feel like. So what's interesting is if you look at the data on like how those relationships go with, with the AI or, or when AI is intermediating between two people, they tend to be relatively shallow and they don't last very long. Like even people who have like an AI boyfriend, they have an AI boyfriend, like four or five months. That's a long time for them. Now, if I told you that like somebody had like a boyfriend and their relationship only lasted four months, you would be like, that's not a very long relationship, right? Like that's, that's probably not your light, your soulmate.

56:16Charles Duhigg:And the reason why is because when we're having a discussion, part of what's happening is that I am paying attention to my effect on you and you are paying attention to your effect on me. I'm looking for that effect. Part of the exchange of a conversation is me feeling like you are feeling something or you are thinking something because I provided that to you. Right. And giving you those clues back that like when I say like, oh, that's an interesting question. What I'm really saying is like, oh, your question is impacting me, right? Like I'm, I'm thinking about it and I'm, and it's making me realize something.

56:50Charles Duhigg:That's an integral part of a conversation. When you do that with a machine, you know that the conversation, the machine isn't thinking or feeling anything. When you use AI to write all of your emails, the person on the other end, they kind of can pick up almost subconsciously on this little thin layer of, of a lack of sincerity, a lack of authenticity. So it's fine to use AI. Like, yeah, a little bit of pandering, right? That's why chat GBT keeps telling me like, not only is that a great question, that's the best question you could possibly ask. That's the right question to ask right now. Exactly.

57:24Charles Duhigg:Exactly. And I don't trust that that's true. Nobody does. But I think it's really important. AI is a really powerful tool and we should use it as a tool. But is it going to replace the connections that we have, the conversations we have, all the evidence says no. It's the people who can combine using AI and also knowing when to step away from AI and have a real talk. Those are the people who are going to succeed. Yeah, it's going to be even more valuable. Yeah, totally. I have so much more I want to discuss with you, but I know we're short on time. I really enjoyed our conversation. We didn't even get into your other book that really changed my life literally changed my life power of habit it actually got me into just being as consistent as possible going to the gym and using some tips that came out of it I don't miss a day now because of some things I learned there but it also helped me too from a business point of view we implemented a lot of the strategies in our onboarding in our software webinar ninja when we were building it and just figuring out how can we build a habit of people coming back in and and we're using our software.

58:27So fantastic.

58:29Charles Duhigg:Oh, it's wonderful. Yeah. You've been a great help throughout my journey. So I got one more question and it's a very simple one. You know, you have done a lot. You've studied history at Yale. You have an MBA from Harvard business school. You worked for the New York Times. You work for the New Yorker. You have a Pulitzer Prize. You have a New York Times bestselling book. Where do you go from here, Charles? Oh, thank you for asking that as if like, as if all that prelude makes it easier to go forward. I mean, honestly, I'm actually trying to figure out another book topic right now that I'm just starting to work on.

59:06Charles Duhigg:And the truth of the matter is, all of those accolades, much like you selling your company, when I won the Pulitzer, I thought it would change my life. And it didn't at all. It was just a prize. It was people saying, you did a good job. And that feels really good. I definitely wouldn't turn it down. But the thing that actually is more meaningful is trying to find something new to write about that I think is important and that will resonate with people. Or having a conversation with my kids and learning something about them and feeling like we really connected with each other and that we're building a friendship that's going to last throughout our life.

59:45Charles Duhigg:Those are the things that really matter. and those are the things you get to do every day. It doesn't matter how good a conversation I had with my kid last month. It's the conversation we're having right now that matters. And so I feel like I like learning things. I'm happy that I've been successful because it means that some of the lessons I've learned are lessons that I can apply going forward. But it really is all about like, you know, what are you doing today? Do you do something that makes you happy and that makes you passionate and that you feel like makes the world a better place today?

1:00:19Charles Duhigg:that's the thing that matters much more than anything else. That's lovely. I got a movie recommendation for you that I feel like you would really enjoy given where you are in your life right now. It's called Perfect Days. It's a Japanese movie. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I think it's streaming somewhere. It's called Perfect Days. And I don't want to tell you too much, but I think you're really going to enjoy it based on what you said. Oh, good. I'll go look that up tonight. Thank you for that. Thanks, Charles, for being on the show. Thank you. You've been a fantastic, not only guest, but person to speak to and get to know a little bit.

1:00:51You've influenced me so much from afar. I do say, you know, I'm in the process of working on my first book. And when I was reading your books throughout my journey, I realized, oh, man, I got to get better because I got to write at least as good as Charles.

1:01:06Charles Duhigg:Yeah, it takes forever. If the first draft is terrible and the 13th draft is terrible, that's OK. that's how you write a good draft is you have terrible, terrible drafts in the beginning. I hope it's nothing but bliss writing the book, although I know that it will be an uphill struggle and that that's part of the process and hopefully it brings its own kind of bliss. I love it. Thank you so much, Charles. Appreciate it. Thank you, Omar. Take care. That was a brilliant conversation. I enjoyed every single moment with Charles Duhigg. You should definitely, if you have not already, put his books in your Amazon cart and hit checkout.

1:01:44This book is incredible. We talked a lot about it in the conversation, super communicators. If you want to just get better at life, his books help you tremendously. So this one, pick it up. The other one, of course, we didn't talk about it too much, but it's the power of habit. This book has helped me so much when it comes to being consistent and having habits become part of my life. It's like my lifestyle, the things I always want to do. So if you have a hard time, like being consistent with exercise or something in business, or maybe if it's just consistent with the promises you tell yourself, right?

1:02:14You want to keep your promises to yourself, then the power of habit is going to help you tremendously. Put these, both these books, both of them, put them in your cart right now. Make sure you check out and buy them. Incredible, incredible pieces of work that are well-researched and really fun to read. That's it for me today, guys. Who do you want me to bring on the show next? Let me know in the comments if you're watching on YouTube or put it in a review on Apple Podcasts if you're listening to the podcast, or just send me a message on Instagram or Facebook or whatever it might be. I'm always looking forward to having great conversations with great people that can help us all get better, like Charles.

1:02:50So if you know somebody like that, if you've been following somebody like that, let me know so that I can reach out to them and get them on the podcast. Until the next episode, take care and do yourself a favor. Implement one thing you learned today so that you actually take action and actually make your life better with the content you just learned. If you found today's episode helpful and you want more practical business lessons to help you start, grow, and scale your business, the best thing you could do is subscribe to this podcast. Hit subscribe or follow on your favorite podcast app, the one that you're using right now, whether it's Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

1:03:28By hitting subscribe, you get our next episode automatically, and it's the best way to support the show. It's absolutely free, and it's a way for you to commit to growing your business. And now that you've subscribed, I'll check you in the next episode.

1:04:07Walmart business lets me keep track of all our expenses in one place. Aaron, don't eat that. Michael, uh-uh.

1:04:12Charles Duhigg:It's Walmart. Built for your business. Who knew? Eligible organizations. Additional terms apply.