Ex-Colombian Ambassador Pinzon Warns Petro Risks ‘Another Venezuela’

0:00It's the most critical election in the world this year. Virtually nobody's talking about it. This country was stone cold dead.

0:34what happens now is Colombia. Colombia is a nation of 50 million people that makes it almost double the size of Venezuela. It's also a longtime U.S. ally, at least until recently. The relationship between President Trump and Gustavo Petro, the president of Colombia, completely devolved over the last year, with President Trump just this week telling Petro to, quote, watch his ass. My guest today, former Colombian defense minister and ambassador to the United States, Juan Carlos Pinzon, who is also running for president for the presidency of Colombia in the elections this year to replace Gustavo Petro.

1:07Juan Carlos, welcome. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. It's an honor to be here with you, Carlos. So President Trump was asked this week on Air Force One whether the United States would conduct a military operation against Colombia after the successful capture of Maduro in Venezuela. Trump said, quote, it sounds good to me. What did you make of that? Do you think that that is something that's actually on the table here, or is this just bluster? Well, we Colombians have a big opportunity next to me. we have to change the course of where we're going. If we keep in the current track, what we're going to have is something like Venezuela some years from now.

1:43And we cannot have that. We have the opportunity to make a change. Colombia needs to recover security. Sadly, the administration of Gustavo Petro has deteriorated almost every policy in Colombia, from healthcare to housing, to the economy, to investment, and most importantly, security. We have the largest expansion of organized crime in the history of the country. We have more cocaine than ever, more legal mining than ever, and more extortion than ever. And of course, that needs to change to protect Colombian fears of all, to defend Colombians, to guarantee our sovereignty, and by doing that, to cooperate with all the countries.

2:19We want to recover the country that was well-respected by everyone worldwide. We need to make sure that in May, we make the change that we have to make. I also wanted to ask you about Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State. And I mean, he's got like 100 jobs at this point. Do you have a relationship with the Secretary of State here? I mean, is he as popular in Colombia as he is in other parts of the Latin American diaspora in America, as well as other countries in Latin America? Look, Secretary Rubio is a great friend of Colombia, a great friend from a long time in my case. I known him as a senator, and he always was very supportive of Colombia.

3:03He cared a lot for Colombians and for our country. And I'm sure that, you know, he's well-respected nowadays in the whole world, certainly in Latin America. I have no doubt that more and more people care for him in the United States. And about me, as president of Colombia, I'm sure we will have a wonderful relationship with the United States, with the current administration of President Trump and the leadership of Secretary Rubio, but certainly with any government of the United States as we share values, values of freedom, values of democracy, values of free markets, values of trade. And certainly we share for many, many decades, centuries, actually, strong relationships.

3:48You hit on the migration issue briefly. So there was a big migration wave out of Venezuela about 10 years ago, I think, right, when Maduro had really sort of just torpedoed the economy and solidified himself as not just a tinpot dictator, but an ineffective dictator, right? Right. I mean, Chavez was a corrupt dictator, too, but he was I mean, I think he was at least somewhat effective in it stewarding that economy to a degree as corrupt as he was. Maduro wasn't even that. Right. So, I mean, so there was this big exodus of Venezuelan refugees. A lot of them ended up in America, but a lot of them ended up in Colombia, millions, I believe.

4:24So my question, I guess, is do you fear that, you know, in this sort of like power vacuum with Maduro out of power, do you fear that migration could be exacerbated again, just given the size and the scale of the border between those two, your two countries? A few things. I think very poorly about Chavez and Maduro. They are both bad people, people that committed crimes, people that really destroyed a country that was prosperous, that was wealthy, and that sadly, you know, really became a very problematic situation. You know, around 8 million Venezuelans left the country because of their misperformance.

4:59Most of them crossed through Colombia, and around 2 million of those stayed in Colombia. So we know very close what happened there and how they did it. And of course, we're very, very worried. We care for Venezuelans. And actually, we have to praise even the administration, the previous government of Colombia, for opening the arms and allowing five, six years ago, the possibility of Venezuelans to even stay in Colombia with a special possibility that allowed them to even stay, to have a job, to have even social services. My main concern right now is that the criminals that are Colombian criminals that are living in Venezuela, FARC, YLN, drug traffickers and other criminals can decide that they don't feel safe anymore and come to Colombia.

5:47And that, as I expressed before, worries me because we need to be prepared because they have bad intentions. And by the way, because they might even do whatever it takes to help the current regime that is still in power to hold power. And that's something that we need to care and we need to understand. I imagine that what crossed the minds of the planners of the United States was that it was better to have an orderly transition rather than having a total chaos. And I get it and I see it. But I hope that transition really happens. And it's clear that it's necessary to have a transition government different than the one that is led by Delce Rodriguez in the current situation.

6:29She's part of the old regime. She has been as responsible for crimes as many others, including Maduro and Chavez. And of course, it's important to see a different people there. But what matters at the end, in my case, is to make sure that we're going to protect Colombia, that we're going to go after criminals, and that we have made, as a big opportunity, to make this change once and for all in Colombia. We cover the future of Colombia and really work hard to make Colombia an attractive place for investment, for jobs, and at the end to solve the problems and needs of my fellow Colombians, my people.

7:08On the topic of drugs and narco-trafficking, so you were defense minister when Colombia made really big strides in reducing cocaine production. From my understanding, that is no longer the case. I believe Colombia is producing more cocaine than ever. Why has that strategy failed in the years since you were part of the administration? Well, we were very successful. Actually, in the years 2012 and 2013, when I was Minister of Defense, we have the lowest ever production of cocaine and the lowest number of hectares in coca fields. And we really weakened the FARC. In my time as Minister of Defense, we neutralized, killed, or captured 128 liters of Fardial and criminal bands.

7:52That was a major success at that time. But sadly, when the expectation of peace agreements came, the Havana agreements, those agreements weakened the action of the armed forces. They weakened the size of those. And then it weakened the policy that was sustained using spraying, using interdiction, and using all kinds of tools to go after drug traffickers. And sadly, that created the perfect opportunity and a vacuum for criminals to expand again. And then, years after, with the government of Petro, sadly, this guy Petro has created a policy that is called Total Peace. And total peace has implied now offering benefits to criminals, offering even funding to criminals instead of providing to Colombians.

8:39And of course, with those incentives, what we have now is an explosion of crime, having the largest ever cocaine economy, the largest ever illegal mining economy, and the largest ever extortion economy. So illegal economies have taken a lot of the place in Colombia. Colombians are very worried, are desperate. When you see any number, any poll, almost 70 % of Colombians disagree with what is going on. That's why we have this major opportunity. Colombia has been a democratic, free country for decades, has been an example to the world on this front. And on May, we got to make our decision and change the course of history in Colombia and take into account what just happened in Venezuela.

9:24If we continue this role, we're going to have a similar future. of what they have. If we change and we recover and then we work hard to have a better future, Colombia is going to be one of the most prosperous and exciting countries worldwide. I mean, it's a beautiful country. I was in Cartagena for a wedding a couple of years ago. And yeah, I would, under your presidency, I will gladly take a vacation home there if you can make that happen.

9:53Staying on the narco-trafficking thing for a moment. So President Trump recently pardoned the former Honduran president, Juan Orlando Hernandez. So he was a convicted narco trafficker. I believe he was part of a vast conspiracy to traffic cocaine into the United States. Trump pardoned him. He said that it was something about how he was prosecuted under Biden. It's a little bit unclear what's going on there. But the president has been pilloried for this here in the U.S. as sort of a hypocrite, right? How could you pardon one convicted narco trafficker while also snatching another one and trying them in the United States?

10:31Do you think that there's a bigger story here that we aren't aware of? I have sort of a pet theory that I don't know if it's true or not. It's just a pet theory. But what he's doing is trying to sort of signal to either Maduro or Maduro's people that pardons are on the table if they can give us something that we want or need. You don't necessarily need to opine on that. I'm just curious your take on the Hernandez pardon. I'm going to respond to you after being two times, twice ambassador to the United States. And something that I learned about the U.S., don't mess into U.S. domestic politics. And I think those are very much related to that.

11:07You know, my take is very simple. I want to see every criminal worldwide convicted and really paying strongly and harshly for their crimes, especially those that have been attacking their lives and using violence against other human beings. I'm a protector. I'm a patriot. That's what I want for my country and that's what I did and that's what I will do as president. So I wish to see not only Maduro but any other criminal starting by Colombians but certainly anywhere in place really going and paying for their dues and for their responsibilities in the crimes they have committed. Fair, fair, fair answer.

11:48I think also you mentioned something I want to get back to for briefly here, which is this idea of, you know, how power abhors a vacuum. And when you have a sort of political vacuum, that's when these bad actors can can sort of, you know, fill it. Right. Look, we decapitated this regime in Venezuela, which, again, huge success. That's one thing. Nation building is a completely different story, as we have learned time and time again from Iraq to Libya to you name it. But so I guess my question is, you know, if if Venezuela, if this goes sideways and Venezuela further falls into into chaos, if they're not able to pull off, you know, an orderly transition, if they're not able to hold elections, do you worry about that?

12:33And the more pointed question I have for you is, would you support American troops on Colombian soil if there is a sort of societal collapse in Venezuela and the border between Venezuela and Colombia becomes, you know, contested or, you know, whatever? Does that make sense? It makes sense, but I'm going to respond to you very clearly. As president of Colombia, I need a good cooperation with the United States, but I don't need any soldier of the United States in my territory other than good friends, good trainers, and good cooperation. My soldiers are the best in the world on jungle warfare, and they are great when they fight criminals, when they get the support, and when they get all the resources and leadership that is required.

13:16I can attest that. We did that before. And we will do it again. I will do it again. That's what the world needs to know. That's what Colombians have the comfort to know, that we can do it, we will do it, but definitely if we don't change, we might have a bad future as what we saw in Venezuela. We need to use the example of Venezuela for Colombians to learn that everything that has happened there has been bad. When they elected a narco-communist government, they ended having this kind of crisis. Even a president being taken in their own capital, convicted in a jail in the United States. I don't want that to happen ever to Colombia, ever.

13:58And that's why I want to make sure we get to government and we create conditions for security, stability, cooperation, and more important than all, prosperity for Colombians. Before I let you go, I want to learn a little bit more about you. I mean, obviously, you know, we're an American news organization here at Newsweek and we have an American audience who's not more or less going to be voting in the Colombian elections. But I want to, you know, Latin America is in this big shift, right? There's this big shift towards the right with these big, voluble leaders like Bukele in El Salvador, Millet in Argentina.

14:32These are these guys have sort of become the symbols of the new right in Latin America. Do you see yourself as as peace with them? them, you strike me as more of a pragmatist and a diplomat. I mean, you are a diplomat. Well, I was a minister of defense, remember? I was a warder. I won a war against the park, and we did it effectively. And then I became a diplomat. And I'm an economist as well. So I'm a pragmatic economist that understands the need for prosperity and for economic stability and prosperity. That's what I cared for. But at the end, I'm a patriot of my country, and I love my country deeply, and I want to work as hard as I can, first of all, to protect my people.

15:16I know how to do it. I did it before, and I will do it again. But at the same time, I got to make sure that we create the prosperity for Colombian people. We have a lot of poverty and a lot of needs in my country, and a lot of crisis at the same time, even that have been deteriorated through the time of the current administration. So I got to make sure that I can tackle all of those problems and I can return back confidence and trust to Colombians and to Colombia. And that's what I'll do. That's what I represent. And Juan Carlos, my final question on the same topic is, why is it important for Americans to pay attention to the elections in Colombia this year?

15:54I mean, obviously the region is at a hinge point, but if you're talking to just a regular American who maybe isn't following this very closely, Why is this election so important? It's very important. One is because Colombia has been the greatest ally of the United States in the Western Hemisphere for decades. And we're losing that. The United States is almost to lose Colombia, and Colombia is almost to lose the United States. So we need a government that can recover that partnership, strengthen it, update it, and by the way, use it to the benefit of both our nations. But on the other side, Colombia is a larger country than Venezuela.

16:30So if Venezuela is a problem, imagine the kind of problem that Colombia can be. And finally, there's the risk that Colombia can fall either in the hands of an extreme left populist or in the hands of someone that is not ready for the job. That's why I'm here, because we need someone that has been tested, that can do the job, that can recover the relationship, that can recover the country, that can create the conditions to move forward effectively. Well, you've certainly been around the block. You worked under, I believe, three American presidents when you were ambassador. Am I right about that?

17:04Would that be right? It would be Obama, Trump won and Biden. I was going to ask you I was going to ask you for your thoughts on their various styles, but I know you're not going to answer that question. So that's quite all right. I won't even bother. Juan Carlos Pizón, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. And good luck in the World Cup this year. We have to have first a lot of luck in the elections. So I'm hoping for that as well. and then I think that my country can be the surprise. Maybe Colombia can be the next world champ. You know, at least I will root hard for that. We'll find out soon enough.

17:38Juan Carlos Pinzon, thanks again very much.