Jessica Tarlov on Working at Fox News and Building a New American Center

22:34Jessica Tarlov:And they also have a capacity to joke around more about it. Like they are comfortable with faults in their political leadership that I think we're not as it's true, like tattletales about everything. And, you know, even with hugely imperfect characters in the Democratic Party, like a Bill Clinton, for instance, you know how much of a lightning rod that becomes for people. And it's like he can just be complicated and flawed. It doesn't have to be in the extremists. A flawed guy who also happened to be arguably the last, I don't know, really—I mean, he presided over— Great president. Everybody agrees that they love the economy.

23:10Jessica Tarlov:Right. The 90s—I mean, maybe it's just our age, but, like, when I look back on the 90s, it was awesome. It was the peak of the American experience, and he presided over it. Yeah, he did some bad stuff, too, but, like, people are complicating. Individual policies that people would point to and talk about the crime bill and don't ask, don't tell and things like that. But in general, I was just like a lot calmer about these things. And I say all this and then I want to caveat it with I also don't know what it's like to have someone in my important inner circle making a political decision that I can't wrap my head around or that has a hugely negative impact on me.

23:57Jessica Tarlov:I have an uncle who has always been super liberal to the left of me. Even in 2016, we'd fought about Hillary versus Bernie. But he's quite religious and Jewish, and he voted for Trump in 2024 because of Israel. And I know a few people that did that, and it obviously tore the city apart for the Mom Donnie election with Cuomo and all of these very reluctant Cuomo voters because they felt that Jews were not going to be as safe in the city as a result of that. But I don't know those kinds of experiences that people who like have lost health care, for instance, as a result of these policies or even whose families have turned on them because they've become part of this tribe that way.

24:43Jessica Tarlov:In the book, I talk about meeting this trans woman at a conference in Washington, D.C., and how struck I was by the conversation that she wanted to have, which wasn't about the political jockeying or the culture wars or anything. But she wanted to talk to me about how important it is that the example that I set in the way that I dialogue with my colleagues on The Five was being televised into her parents' house and her parents who don't talk to her because she's trans. Right. And that it made her hopeful that maybe she would get her family back one day and that maybe we'd all be talking a bit more.

25:23Jessica Tarlov:So I take a lot of solace in that and the kind of position that we shouldn't be throwing people aside. But I also if that's what you feel is best, if you feel that these people are cancerous to you and quality of life or they're just frankly too selfish because there have been a lot of policy outcomes from this administration that you can describe as nothing. You could certainly say malicious, but you could definitely say selfish, right? Not thinking about the poorest amongst us who need health care and they need a home, an affordable home, a decent education. And those aren't this brand of Republican.

26:01Jessica Tarlov:It's not their priorities. Well, that's the understatement of the year. Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years now. With the Name Your Price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit Progressive.com. Find a rate that works for you with the Name Your Price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates.

26:32Price and coverage match limited by state law. So the book is called I Disagree. I read it as a sort of like a combination autobiography, but also user's guide for how to disagree and how to find common ground with others who may not agree with you, but also while staying true to your values, as you just said. And that is obviously not easy. Just talk a little bit about how the book came into existence. Did you always want to write this or did you have an epiphany?

27:00Jessica Tarlov:Somewhere in between. I mean, if I was going to write a book, this seems like the book that I should be writing, which is nice. You know, when you see some titles show up and you're like, why is that person writing that book? And I mean, maybe they have an obsession with World War Two that you didn't know about or whatever. But in general, I think this is the thing that people most closely associate me with. You're the disagreeer. You're the Fox News disagree. I'm a professional disagreeer. Yes. And HD hair and makeup. It's a different kind of way to do it. Right. So it made sense that way. But I would say there were kind of two events or trend lines in my life that made me really actually sit down and start writing.

27:44Jessica Tarlov:So the first I was a few years of having been on the five and the amount of outreach that I had gotten from Democrats and Republicans who just said, I don't know how you do it. Yeah. And those are people who agree with me and people who agree with Jesse Waters. Right. Even people who love Jesse Waters, who think Jesse Waters should interrupt me less. It's been his New Year's resolution four years in a row now. You know, who just say, like, you're a saint for putting up with this or I want to hear more of what you have to say, even if it's not going to be a position that they necessarily agree with.

28:21Jessica Tarlov:So I realized that there was something that I was doing or something that I was modeling that people were interested in hearing more about and in a direct way, not just watching me do the job, but explaining how I do the job. And then the second thing, and it's why it's the opening anecdote of the book, I went to Columbia to talk to some journalism students right after the election. And, you know, everyone's reeling was not a surprise necessarily, but it did feel once Bratz summer began that maybe there was a chance. Oh, God. And Donald Trump was so unpopular. Right. I was at the DNC thinking, like, we got this.

28:58And then I was like, oh, maybe we don't.

29:01Jessica Tarlov:Maybe we don't. But like watching that interview on The View thinking, really? Nothing? Nothing? Nothing at all? That was the moment when I was just like, oh, Christ. Yeah. And you can tell also how nervous you must have been for that. I would never be able to be in public life in that way. That is a tightrope. That's impossible. But you look at and she did so much better sitting down with Brett there, which everyone was wringing their hands over, apparently, in Harris' world. Like, do we do it? Do we not do it? And I'm like, it was a view that you f***ed up. Right. Exactly. You seem very competent and together.

29:35Jessica Tarlov:Yeah. Talking to Brett Baer, which is one of the reasons I also tell people, like, go on. We'll go on. Exactly. To people who are going to ask you the hard stuff. Buttigieg is like one of the few Democrats who gets that and has gotten it from the start. I think it comes also from being, you know, mayor in a conservative state. And you just grow up around these people. And there are a few now kind of in his mold where you see like Rob Sand, who's running for governor. It's been going on. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Where they fell in love. That was that was something it was something, but it was good for both of them.

30:14Jessica Tarlov:Yeah. And that's what you want media to be. Right. Frankly, you want everyone to actually walk away feeling like a winner. and then you go to your algorithm and you juice your side or whatever you got to do. But this is another thing that I would love to talk about. But, you know, I think that there are really two schools of thought when you go to have these conversations. You know, one, do I want to show up and land these huge punches and, you know, have everyone clipping up what I said? Right. Is the goal to be on to be clipped on social media? Right. Or is it to and if you do it well, you also get clipped.

30:49Yeah.

30:49Jessica Tarlov:But to actually have a conversation where maybe you've heard what the other person has to say and then you have done the work to shape your argument to the reality of this issue to the other person, which I think is like why we all exist. Right. So that's how you should do it if you are going on. And I think Democratic electeds get that now. Yeah. Like, you don't want to. I'd like to see more of them on Fox. I'd like to see Ossoff more on Fox. Well, he doesn't do a ton of interviews at all. Which, yeah, I'm curious as to what that portends for, you know, it looks like he's going to do very well.

31:25Jessica Tarlov:Yeah. You know, maybe one by 10 plus points. And hopefully then Keisha Lance Bottoms gets across the finish line. Yeah. He's probably just wait. He's got to get through November. Right. But I I'm curious as to what he will be like, because it could be one of those people. I don't know if you will. You online dated. But, you know, briefly. Thank God we don't have to do that anymore. I actually thought it was fun, like a series of sexy interviews. But I'm also was a girl in Manhattan. So as my husband would say, like what you just got free dinners for years in perpetuity and fantastic trips and then just decided, sorry, you're not the one.

32:04Jessica Tarlov:But I'm curious as to how he fares when being pushed more because it's it's one thing. The speeches are great. Exactly. Well, I ask you about all stuff because I know I know you've said you find him very compelling for 28. I want to ask you more about that because I'm on the same page. But go ahead. Well, what's nice is we're all on the same page. It's like the only thing that me and Hassan Piker agree on. Yeah. Is John Ossoff makes sense. So we'll see where that turns. But these Columbia journalism students. Yes. Sorry. I'm like, no, no, no. That's OK. But what was so interesting to me about them is how much they didn't fit the stereotype of the wokey Ivy League idealist kids, you know, in their mid-20s, like, you know, early to mid-20s.

32:49Jessica Tarlov:But they all wanted to understand better how to represent themselves and their values in a pretty complicated landscape. And part of that is just survival of the fittest, right? You don't get a traditional job anymore. They want to know about brand building. Like, how do you become someone that people can associate with a specific thing or a point of view? Should they be reporting their own story? Should they try to go work within a news organization? Those kinds of things. But they they were so interested in how a person like me could exist and arguably thrive in an environment like Fox. Right.

33:28And it felt part and parcel of this quest to being able to stand out and be true to yourself. Right.

33:38Jessica Tarlov:Which I just thought was so interesting. And then I started writing. You also, in addition to you have several jobs, you're a busy woman. I'm a mom for a school. Well, right. Yes. Of course, that's the most important job. And I actually do want to ask you about that. You host the Raging Moderates podcast with another person I admire, Scott Galloway. By the way, who, Scott, if if this makes its way to you, we've requested your interview on the show. I'll text him. OK. It does not mean he ignores a lot of my texts, which I've complained about on the podcast. He's a busy guy too. But Scott, we'd love to have you on.

34:11Jessica Tarlov:I get excited when he like thumbs up my text. So I have friends or, you know, people similarly who, you know, want access to Scott. And they'll give me the request and say, you know, can you get this? And I'm like, yeah, I can flag it. But it means basically nothing. Sure. Yeah. So if you think about that, like I'm a co-host of a podcast with him and I barely get a thumbs up. Right. What was I going to say? Oh, what is a raging moderate? Isn't that an oxymoron? No. Tell me. I don't think so. John Ossoff is a raging moderate. Alyssa Slotkin is a raging moderate. Ruben Gallego is a raging moderate.

34:52Jessica Tarlov:I mean, I don't want this to turn into like a DSA versus the middle of the party. But most of the winners right now are raging moderates. This is a good point. Exactly. And I was asked the other day about this, like, well, what do you think is the best way to describe what a raging moderate is? And I said a winner. Right. That's what it is right now. Yeah. It's somebody that can flip a red or purple seat and hold it. Right. It's somebody that can take positions that speak to the broadest coalition of people within their districts, whether it's local up to the state level and eventually presidential.

35:32Jessica Tarlov:And it's somebody that understands the balance between the outrage and the severity of the moment and also the pragmatism to get done. Pragmatism is the key. Yeah. It's about winning. And it doesn't have to be wishy washy. That's the thing. I mean, we were coming up on our two year anniversary of the podcast and Scott came up with the name and he's famous for branding. Yeah, sure. This is a badass name. Right. Like everyone's going to get this. Then we lose the election. And basically everyone has at least rhetorically turned on moderates. Yeah. I'm like, do we have to change the name of the pot?

36:05Jessica Tarlov:But we're sticking with it because at least it had the raging in it. Right. And maybe we'll be vindicated in the midterms. But I really think that's what it is. And it's the pragmatism and the practicality of it. Like if something sounds good and makes sense that the far left is saying, consider it and take it. But no more litmus tests. The litmus tests kill me. It's very hard, though. And this is, you know, I'm obviously working conservative media, so their news cycles sometimes looks very different to our news cycle. But, you know, there are times when voters who you are responsible to are demanding something of you or need to hear you say something that is inconvenient or creates a political problem.

36:54Jessica Tarlov:And I still think you need to do that, that it's not those kinds of litmus tests. Sometimes they're common sense litmus tests for people like trans women and women's sports. It's not really anyone's number one issue, even the famous Trump ad with Charlemagne that they used in the 2024 election about. She's for they them. That was about the economy. Yeah. It wasn't about trans people. It was Kamala Harris is going to wake up tomorrow and spend your tax dollars on an illegal to have a sex change in prison. The tax dollars to me was the most important element of that ad. and that it sounds insane, obviously, that this ever happened.

37:37Jessica Tarlov:And by the way, a lot of gender-affirming care that went on during the first Trump administration in prison. So people would like to check that out. But they were – that ad was about priorities. And people usually think of priorities as they relate to their kitchen table issues, which is why Trump and the Republicans are so underwater because people are saying, I can't afford my life. And he's saying, I want a ballroom and the arc to Trump. Right. So that that was how I felt about that ad. And most of my colleagues understood what I was saying. But, yeah, they do want to hear you say, I think, Leah Thomas, the pen swimmer.

38:13Jessica Tarlov:Yeah, it's an that's an unfair advantage. Right. She went through puberty as a man. Yeah. Right. That's that's like common sense. Right. But if you don't open those doors, they can't hear the rest of what you had to say because you sound like an alien. Right. Right. Well, back to Ossoff, and I don't want to go off on an Ossoff tangent, but it just reminded me, there was this clip going around on Twitter a while ago. It was back from—it was from 2020. I think it was on Axios, some Axios thing, and they were, like, listing off all of these, you know, these, like, lefty positions, like Medicare for All, no.

38:44Green New Deal, no. And he was going down and listing, I don't support these things. And all of the libs on my timeline, all the progressives were like, this is why he can't be president. It's like, well, what happened after that? He won a Senate seat in Georgia. In Georgia. In Georgia. Right. And now he's about to, God willing, crush his reelection in Georgia and possibly become maybe one of the front runners for the nomination. Right. So it's like there's probably a correlation.

39:08Jessica Tarlov:Why did we end up on the back foot through a 107 days of her campaign? It was because Kamala Harris checked boxes on an ACLU survey that looked very similar to that one. People also didn't know that that was from 2020. That Ossoff clip. Yeah. No. Did you just say that? And I said, well, first of all, you probably say the same thing again, because he still represents people in Georgia. Exactly. Which is a red state. I mean, trending purple. Right. But, you know, we have no business having those seats. So anyone who gets up and like Warnock's face or Ossoff's face used to do this with Joe Manchin made me so angry.

39:42Jessica Tarlov:What do you want from West Virginia? And now what do we have? Exactly. Are you enjoying that? Yeah, exactly. Like that was a reliable vote. Fetterman. Fetterman annoys me to, like, ungodly levels. He still votes with Democrats 95 % of the time. Right. You think he's going to go Republican after the midterms? No. You don't think? I don't think, well. I guess it depends on what the map looks like, right? No. I think either probably, you know, leaves office, frankly. From listening to him, and I had him on Raging Moderates when his book came out, which was an incredibly tough read about his mental health struggles and being hospitalized and wanting to take his life.

40:23Jessica Tarlov:The importance of getting help. Right. Like. John Fetterman doesn't believe in the same things as Republicans. I mean, he might about Israel and. trans athletes or whatever. But the whole predicate of why John Fetterman is still alive is because of policies that Democrats support and Republicans don't like mental health services. And his wife was illegal. You know, she was an undocumented immigrant. Like, you make a pretty shitty Republican, I think. But I'm sure they'd love to have them, though. Oh, they would take them. And I think it's so well that they could be looking for Republicans in all sorts of weird corners.

41:03You have this great line I wrote here. You're writing that the new moderates, which you call them, us, I guess. I consider myself a new moderate. You say, we're not timid. We are, quote, combative and populist about wrenching politics back from the extremes. End quote. Great line. Can you be a moderate populist?

41:20Jessica Tarlov:I think so. I mean, I think that all the people who I just maimed fit into those categories. You know, I think that the most important thing that people need to understand about this moment is everyone has an opinion like went too far left. No, we went too far right. Whatever it is. The people get to dictate. What goes? That's the thing. That's why I believe so much in data and polling. And it's a snapshot of just a moment in time, but it tells you something really valuable about how folks feel and what they're concerned about. But the reality is that the country in general is more comfortable with fiscal liberalism or populism that way.

42:03Jessica Tarlov:That's why in the horseshoe, right, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump were hanging out in the same area. And they're a bit more culturally conservative than I think a lot of Democrats and certainly Democratic consultants would like. It's funny because the joke used to be, oh, I'm, you know, fiscally conservative, socially liberal. Socially liberal, yeah. And now it's kind of flipped on its head. I think so. But it doesn't mean I think because so much of the lines in the sand or the big issues on the social side that people used to be fighting for are now pretty much accepted. Obviously, there are conservatives that want to roll back.

42:35Jessica Tarlov:And the Dobbs decision is a big piece of that. But in general, no one's talking about like gay marriage on the campaign trail. Right. Yeah. Right. Even did you read the big piece in The Atlantic by the trans CIA officer? Oh, I didn't read it, but I know the piece you're talking about. Yeah. She went for Pence, right? Yes, who she loved. Right. And he knew that she was trans. And he was asked in an interview about it a couple days after it came out. And he said, you know, how happy it made him that she had that kind of experience for him. And she details really, you know, people joke with me, like, you know, how do you work with Greg Gutfeld?

43:12Jessica Tarlov:Like this woman was having to pick the route that she was taking on work trips based upon where there could be a public bathroom that she could use because in the White House they would not let her go. She would come in to brief the president. Yeah. And she was not allowed to go into the bathroom that she identifies with, which we know from North Carolina. Like people don't actually care about this stuff. It's just Mueller mean stuff. And so you look at that and you think, like, we can figure this out. Like most people are generally in the same stratosphere. I think most people agree on like most stuff or like a released, you're right, in the same general like place.

43:58But that was what I was going to ask you because when did moderates get such a bad rap? Because my, maybe I'm just like glossing over it. But growing up, it seemed to me like everybody was sort of like, I don't know. I mean, I grew up in New York, went to school in Virginia, had a lot of conservative friends, a lot of liberal friends. Like people were kind of like center left, center right. It didn't feel like everybody was on the extremes. And maybe they're not. Maybe it's just that's what social media has done to us. I don't know.

44:20Jessica Tarlov:I think there is a ton of damage to it from social media. I think that it also has been a long time since people felt like politicians were responsive to their needs and concerns. Right. That's the only way that you get to a 13 percent approval. But, yeah, I think people were much more comfortable in the middle, that it didn't feel – and this maybe loops back to what I was saying about those Columbia students or people, you know, focused on, well, what's my brand, right? Like how does the outside world think about me? Like how do I portray myself online? Like we weren't thinking about that growing up.

44:55Like I didn't even – it's weird for someone now.

44:57Jessica Tarlov:I have a Twitter account. I didn't get that even until Hannity, Sean, told me. He's like, you really, you need to have one. You remember when Facebook, we were in college when Facebook came out. Yeah, because Zuckerberg's our year. I didn't get Facebook. I still don't have Facebook. I begrudgingly got LinkedIn when I was told I wasn't going to be able to get a job unless there was some verification that I was this person. And I only started an Instagram account about a year and a half ago. And I don't really know how to upload my own pictures. So all this is to say, I think a lot of the extremism or those feelings does come from the social media and that it's, you know, hipper to have an opinion about everything.

45:38And the stuff that the stuff that gets engagement is the crazy shit. Right. I mean, everybody knows that. Ever wonder who's out there making the world go round? It's truckers. Who unites baristas with coffee beans? Truckers. Who unites dogs with their favorite chew toy? Truckers. That's why Progressive offers truckers even more protection with Cargo Plus coverage to keep truckers moving right along. Quote truck insurance today in as little as eight minutes at ProgressiveCommercial.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Coverage subject to policy terms, limits, and conditions.

46:09Not yet available in California, New York, and Virginia. Jessica, we have similar backgrounds. So, as you noted, you were exactly one week older than me, which I enjoyed reading about. meaning we are geriatric millennials or whatever. Which is the one of the... The rudest thing people see you

46:27Jessica Tarlov:while you're having a baby. I don't know how old your wife is, but these geriatric pregnancies, they got to get rid of it. It's like every woman in New York City is a geriatric pregnancy. It's like over 35. Is that crazy? Yeah, my wife is 36, I think. Yeah, I was 37 with my first kid and then 40. I was like, am I going to be on bed rest from conception? We both have little girls who were born in 2021. You since had another daughter. Congratulations. Thank you. We both grew up in or around New York City. You grew up in Tribeca. I grew up in Westchester, just up the river. And we both had dads who were lawyers.

47:00And I mention that because they obviously argued for a living and for whom politics was always in the air, right, always part of the dinner conversation. And I bring that up because you write in the book something that I really like, which is something my wife and I try and replicate with our daughter, which is the dinner is to use your words. Dinner is destiny, which I really like. Like you talk about the importance of family dinners you had growing up and how the way your family acted at dinner helps define you now. Talk a little bit about that and what you mean by that, because I think I totally agree with you.

47:32Jessica Tarlov:Good. I like agreement on those kinds of things. What I mean by that is kind of the basics that we all understand, which is if you spend more time as a family, you are closer. There are just lots of data about better outcomes for kids academically, socially, emotionally, et cetera. But that identity is really formed in those experiences. And for us in particular, and it sounds like that the same would have been true at your table, ours taught me and my sister, Molly, that we were an equal part of the family. Yeah. Your voice is counted. Yes. And not just like, well, what do you think? Like in a real sensitive way.

48:21Same way of growing up for us. Yeah.

48:22Jessica Tarlov:And not like, you know, go out and earn some money and then we can talk about it. And I had a boyfriend in college who's from a very WASP-y, like Back Bay Boston family. And they started talking to him about paying rent, like once he got his first job. And we're Jewish, like that was never going to happen in our household. But I had seen this from other loving, caring families. Right. And so this idea that there are two parents and two kids and we all have a vote and we all have an opinion that matters in this and that we should also be consulted on things that you would think were more adult stuff.

48:59Jessica Tarlov:Right. Like, where do you want to go on vacation? Or like, do you like this place? We'd be going to a restaurant all the time that we didn't like. Do you like your school? And they put me in this very liberal school in Greenwich Village where we didn't call the teachers by their last names. So it was all first names. And when I got to high school and I went to a more, I mean, politically liberal, but more socially conservative, I guess it was Mr. and Mrs. And I could not compute what was going on and that people were calling their friends parents by their last name, like Mr. and Mrs. and my dad hated it so much.

49:41Jessica Tarlov:And I have this very close friend who would always say, Mr. Tarlov. And my dad would be like, Ben, I have told you. Right, yeah. You can't. That's going to be me with my daughter's friends. I just know it. I'm like, I don't know who Mr. Versano is, but it's not me. No, I'm broke. I don't think anyone's going to be calling you Mr. Versano. You've got to move for that. For sure. But it does, it imbues you with some confidence from an early age and that you are deserving of the seat at the table. And that's why I tried to draw that line between the dinner table to the table at the five that I'm outnumbered for sure.

50:20Jessica Tarlov:But nobody thinks that that table can work without me sitting there or without Harold sitting there on his days. You know that you need that push and pull and you need to count everyone's opinion. Right. Right. Because you are criticized so much just as part of your job, what are some techniques? And I know you write about this in the book, but just to handle criticism, whether it's coming from the president of the United States, say, or in most people's cases, maybe not the president, but your boss or your spouse or your friends. Like, what do you how do you how do you handle that when it comes up?

50:56Jessica Tarlov:Well, I think it's important, obviously, to put it into different buckets and to understand, you know, the intention behind it and the person delivering it. And, you know, I say this in the book. I think everyone who says, like, oh, don't pay attention to the comments, especially in our industry, is doing everyone a big disservice. They're usually the ones who, frankly, search their names constantly on social media. Always, yes. Yeah, like look over at someone's phone and I'm like, you literally just told me not to do that. And I see it plugged in. Um, so understanding the source and the motivation to it, um, I interviewed Hillary Clinton, uh, for the book and knew because I really wanted to ask her as someone who's been so enormously criticized and vilified, uh, throughout much of her public existence, you know, how do you think about it?

51:46Jessica Tarlov:And she told me something that really struck me, which is that criticism coming from somebody that you couldn't actually get a hold of. Right. It's probably not that important. Right. Whether it's a number that you have right away or that you have to like ask a friend like, oh, do you have so-and-so's number? Like that that's the really meaningful stuff. Yeah. That's the hell I think about it too, right? Yeah. Do I know this person in real life? Do I at least have a parasocial relationship with this person? Yeah. And usually when you do call people out on stuff or call them out, just call and ask.

52:22Jessica Tarlov:Yeah. Like, what did you mean by this? Am I misunderstanding this? And also understanding how evil, frankly, social media is and how people want you to feel isolated and angry. That oftentimes the intention is not what you would have heard. Right. The criticism from friends and family, I think, is some of the hardest stuff to really deal with and what you take from it. I get a lot of what they would say is, you know, just help. And they're trying to help me or whatever. Like, I would have done it this way or, you know, well, did you see blah, blah, blah? And I'm like, is this a joke? Like, you're sitting at home having a glass of wine at 5 o 'clock or whatever it is.

53:06Jessica Tarlov:And you're telling me, who, like, pretty routinely does a ton of research to be able to do this, that really if I had done this, it would have been better. Yeah, that's great. I love it. But you still want to have those relationships. And so learning to not get all fired up about those things was a real process for me. Online onslaught, I think it's a lot like how long it exists, right? Those things burn so hot and so fast, man. It's so crazy how quickly. And you feel like it's the end of the world. Yeah. And then you wake up in the morning and it's suddenly gone. It's like it never happened. It really is unbelievable.

53:42Jessica Tarlov:But the Chinese bot farm just went back into its hole. Right. Right. It really makes you wonder, are these real people? Most of the time, no. I think most of the time, no. But some characters in it, and I think also understanding, especially in our world, like how many people actually are bad actors and are in it for the likes and the social media churn. Right. But getting comfortable with the idea that being amplified by big players on the right is that kind of badge of honor, I guess, but that it's not that serious was a big adjustment for me. Right. You know. I think that's the key to everything, right?

54:20It's not that serious.

54:21Jessica Tarlov:No, like illness is serious. Stuff that happens to your kids. That stuff is serious. Well, that's like parenthood for me at least. That was what really. That was the jolt. Right. That was the moment when I was like, oh, my God. Like, what are my priorities now? Yeah. Right. Like it's just. But you still have to get up and work. Right. Exactly. And function in this. So, yeah, it's it's very tough. And, you know, we're all so busy. They demand a lot and they would also take infinity and beyond to make this a toy story thing, you know. And I, you know, you seem like a great dad. I'm not making this gendered about you.

54:58Jessica Tarlov:But also it's just stuff's different for moms. Oh, 100 percent. And, you know, my husband, who is a fantastic dad. Yeah. The traps, the pitfall, the difficulty of being a working mom is I had read a lot about it. You know, obviously a lot of people in my life. Nothing really prepares you for the push and pull of it. And also being comfortable with the fact that I don't want to be a stay at home mom. You know, people say, well, you know, we don't have the money to do it. Right. Right. This is my best self. Yeah. And I'm a better mom because I am this version of me. I totally agree with you there.

55:37Jessica Tarlov:But you have to figure out a different way to exist in their lives and how you can integrate those bits of your personality or experiences. Like I have this thing when I come home from work. The girls come running over and each one of them takes off one of my fake eyelashes. And they get so upset if I'm not wearing them because they know that I don't wear a lot of makeup to go do Raging Moderates. So if I walk in and they see just kind of my face, they're so disappointed and they're like, oh, no eyelashes. So funny. My daughter's obsessed with like makeup and jewelry right now. Amazing. Yeah. So funny.

56:11It's unbelievable.

56:13Jessica Tarlov:Yeah. For everyone who told you and this isn't about like trans people are real. Yeah. Yeah. No, I know exactly what you're saying. Like you're born that way. But she gravitated. We never let her watch any television. She will give you – she has an encyclopedic knowledge of the Disney princesses, the whole Disney cinematic universe, Barbie dolls, all that stuff. And it wasn't anything we did. No, it's just – and I love it because I'm like that myself, and it's been fun. We watch TV, and we're doing all the old Disney movies. And it's great how much she loves them because I'm happy to watch Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid, like the OG ones.

56:48They were really good.

56:49Jessica Tarlov:They're so good. But those I mean, the stereotypes with Gaston and, you know, like the three women who want to marry problematic stuff in those. Totally. But there's adult jokes that we didn't get. It's just that everyone's high. Jessica, before I let you go, just quickly on politics of the day, we're roughly two months out from the midterms here. What are you thinking? Are you thinking blue wave, blue tsunami, blue ripple? I watched Jesse Waters say red wave and get humiliated. So I will never do that. I will never say something like that. I am very optimistic. I am too. I think the mechanics of what's going on work in Democrats' favor.

57:32Jessica Tarlov:Just, you know. I think that's what it comes down to. The economy is not good for people. I mean, that was the thing that we were up in Maine last week on vacation. And I noticed I was saying to my wife, I was like the small talk used to be like about like the weather or something. Yeah. And now it's about it's like, can you believe I paid fifty dollars for a pizza lunch for three people yesterday? And the other person will be like, that's nothing. Wait till you hear this. It's like everybody has a story about like it's just totally out of control. Right. So it's like that's just got to be there has to be some meaning to that.

58:02Right.

58:02Jessica Tarlov:There does. And there is, I think, having Graham Plattner off the ballot, I think, will make it more feasible. That maybe we could win Susan Collins a seat like in Maine, for instance. But the reality is still that people generally think Democrats are so great. So you're like, well, that's the problem. You're fighting the couch, too, which was a 2024 problem. I was saying to a friend the other day, and I thought that it was just a well-known fact to people that if more people had voted in 2024, we would have just lost by more. And he had not heard that. And I was like, yeah, I don't like being the party that maybe wants to suppress the vote a little bit.

58:44Jessica Tarlov:Not like take, you know, not put ICE agents at polling stations. But there are a lot of people who might sit at home who might go for the other guy. And I don't want to be that. I want like full participation and to win in landslides because the people that I think produce better outcomes have a plan that appeals to millions of people and they really believe. And I don't think we have that yet. We don't have our bumper stickers. Right. But I am optimistic. I was just in Dallas with James Tallarico and Mark Cuban rolling out a new health care plan for the Tallarico campaign, which was awesome vibes is in Fort Worth, which is, you know, purplish, but Republican mayor.

59:29Jessica Tarlov:And, you know, they're feeling very optimistic, but it's going to be tough. There's a huge money advantage on the right. And I'm concerned about Michigan. You know, that's not flipping a seat. That's saving a seat. So it'll be a weird world in which maybe, like, Josh Turek wins in Iowa and Abdul El-Sahid loses. But the recruits, I love North Carolina. Roy Cooper is fantastic. Sherrod Brown I feel good about. I'm optimistic, I would say. And there are a lot of raging moderates running in purple districts. Who are doing quite well. How worried are you about Trump doing something? Always. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what to—like, I had—we had Toobin on, Jeffrey Toobin, the other day, and he was talking about this idea that, you know, maybe they're going to fire the House clerk if the house is closed.

1:00:17Yeah, they have all sorts of playhouse. There's all sorts of stuff, right?

1:00:20Jessica Tarlov:I'm very concerned about it. You know, people think that I'm crazy, and I guess I just have a short memory. I'm like, he did try very hard not to accept the results. That's what I said. I was like, I don't want to talk about this. I don't want to put on a tinfoil hat, but it's like we're talking about Donald Trump. Like he literally tried to steal the election. Right. And people seem nuts when they said that beforehand. Then he did the thing. Right. And then you still seem nuts. And I always say that if, you know, an elected or I'm talking to someone, you know, in Democratic leadership, they're like, oh, well, we're the party of democracy.

1:00:49Jessica Tarlov:Like, do not campaign on that. Yes. No, no, no, no. Please. No. You're all gas prices and health care. But, yeah, I'm concerned about that. And Russ Vogt is nuts and Stephen Miller is nuts and Project 2025 has a lot of plans. And Steve Bannon has been right about everything. And if you say that if he tells you that he's looking into ways that a third term can exist, I don't think he actually gets a third term. But the fuss that gets kicked up and the number of people whose minds get poisoned. I mean, you still have 60 percent of Republicans who think 2020 wasn't fair. That's just so mind boggling to me.

1:01:25Jessica Tarlov:Yeah. It's so mind boggling to me. We talked a little bit about Ossoff. Where are you on AOC? You know, I really admire her now. I used to find her— I'm sort of coming around to her, too. Yeah, I always thought that she was very talented, obviously. Really good instincts. Yeah, and she always will do the work. Like, that's what happened in her election. Joe Crowley just completely took it for granted. And, you know, she's going to outknock doors for you. She's very smart and pragmatic about her endorsements. She didn't touch Graham Plattner. She didn't touch Francesca Hong in Wisconsin. And I think that she whether she got it from Nancy Pelosi or, you know, where that came from, she has just become a better actor in democratic politics.

1:02:13Jessica Tarlov:And it doesn't feel to someone who's definitely to the right of her. There are values are probably the same. Yeah. She doesn't feel threatening to me anymore. Interesting. I don't I think it would be a very difficult race. I mean, I think a lot of moderates would be like Sia. No way. And Republicans would do very well. But I also think we don't know. Like, could you predict the moment we're in even two, three years ago necessarily? Like that it's now pretty common to hear people just saying, yeah, like, of course, Medicare for all. Like, that's a big switch. Right. You know, she's definitely moderated.

1:02:52Yeah. And she's just she's just smart. She's just really smart. And it helps.

1:02:57Jessica Tarlov:She's attractive. She's good on her feet. She does a great interview. I keep telling people, people, like, why do you keep talking about John Ossoff so much? Do you have, like, a crush on him or something? It's like, well, kind of. He's super handsome and, like, kind of studly. And, yes, that matters. Like, I'm sorry, like, look around at the world we live in now, right? Not that Donald Trump is, like, good looking, but, like, he's very charismatic. He's very telegenic. He has an imposing presence. Yes, exactly. Which people like. Right. He can't be, like, a little meek thing. Yeah, exactly. People have to know that you're there.

1:03:26Jessica Tarlov:And, I mean, Don Ossoff also, I mean, he came from film world. So he obviously knows what angles are good. But you see other potential candidates trying to do the Ossoff angle. I saw Putin just put in a video. But he's not as big as Ossoff. I mean, Ossoff is also, I mean, this sounds like so pathetic or whatever. His glow up is fantastic. He's just lifted a lot of weights. I know it sounds ridiculous, but these things matter. Yes, exactly. Well, on that note, Jessica, talking about the muscle components of a Georgia senator. No, that's terrible. We wish you the best in your race, running on the issues.

1:04:08Please win that race, John Ossoff. Please save us. The book is called I Disagree. It's on Bookshelves, September 15th. Guys, please check it out. It's a great book. Jessica Tarloff, everybody. Jessica, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. This was awesome. Great. Thank you.