Why Do We Hate When Men Succeed? With Lisa Britton

24:59And I fear that people will dismiss even like the things I say just because they're like, oh, you're just part of the Manosphere. Yeah, you're just speaking points of this dangerous manosphere now. But on that note, though, I'm not a fan of the extremes of Andrew Tate and all of those people. I actually get in fights with them. They don't like me either because they view me as a threat to their – they need kind of just like angry – They want the boys to be – the best thing for a guy like Andrew Tate is for the boys. It is upset boys who need – wants to move somewhere else. But I call them opportunists, if anything.

25:37And this, what we're seeing, like a rise of these influencers and young men who are seeking guidance from them, this is a symptom of the problem. It's not the problem. We need to look at ourselves. We've created a vacuum that these opportunists are filling. And it's because we've mistreated boys and men for decades. We put their issues on the back burner. We laugh at them. We mock them. We tell them masculinity is toxic without helping them become strong boys and men. And then we wonder when they go to people like Tate who are telling them that actually it's women who are terrible. They're the problem.

26:17They're the reason why you're not getting ahead. They're validating these frustrations. And then even with somebody like Tate, he mixes in some positive messages. There's a few things I'll keep tabs. There's a few things he says that I'm like, wow, he's on point right there. about this or that. I wish there could be someone like an Andrew Tate with that level of, you know, following who sticks to just that good stuff, you know, who kind of pushes away because then it's also fueling this like very materialistic, individualistic society that we have today, which I actually hate. And then from there, it gets into this new thing like the looks maxing thing where these guys are like going around hitting themselves with hammers to make their jaws better and like getting leg lengthening surgery.

27:02It's so sad to me. What the heck is going on with that? It's heartbreaking. And when people can laugh it off, like I feel like a lot of these issues, people mock or laugh. But when you see like the rise in eating disorders with young men, like it's rising, but it's much less talked about. They're more likely to die from an eating disorder than women because there's such a stigma. People don't realize it and stuff. Yeah, I never even thought of that. Yeah. Yeah. So your work does get shared by a lot of right wing people, a lot of sort of like Christian nationalist influencers and platforms. Does it concern you that maybe for some people you're being lumped in with some of these less savory characters on the right?

27:41I know that you go out of your way not to be. Not to be. And it's very hard on the Internet, right? Because you can't control what people share. Exactly. That's after almost a decade of doing this now, I realized all I can do is be as clear as possible. and always speak what I believe to be true, always open to evolving my views. But I can't control what people think. And if they end up thinking, oh, well, she's a right-wing nut or whatever, I can't make them think any different. Maybe if they listen to my message enough or tune in enough, they'll realize, oh, that's not the case. That's one of the reasons why I wrote that piece for the LA Times, is because I was reaching liberal women.

28:26I don't want to speak to the choir. I don't want to speak to the people who agree with everything I say. I want to reach the people who don't agree with what I say. I want to change their minds, you know. So venturing out into more center, left-leaning spaces with my writing has been my top priority. I totally agree. When you have an audience or have any sort of platform, all you can do is just try and be true to yourself. Yeah. Right. Otherwise, yeah, if you start taking what people say about you, I mean, this is something I struggle with now that I have one. We can say it as much as we want, but we still get, you know.

28:59No, it's hard. It's tough. We're both favorites. But that's all right. We're not the victims, right? Lisa, I want to quote from the Substack essay we were talking about. Sorry, having your writing quoted to you is always kind of weird, right? But this is a good line. You can do it. It refreshes my memory right now. Well, that's the point here. So this is quoting Lisa. Male ambition is the engine that brought humanity out of the dirt and into modernity. It's a great line. Throughout history, men have been driven to protect, provide and achieve status, often to win the admiration of women and secure their place in the social order.

29:33That drive built cities, invented technologies, crossed oceans and even split the atom with the love, help and support of women, of course, end quote. But there's actually – so the piece goes on to say this. The data on marriage, family formation and happiness shows us relationships based on mutual respect for natural differences tend to be more stable and fulfilling. I would agree with all of that. But I feel I can sort of hear my audience in my head reading – listening to me read that and saying to themselves, well, this woman starts talking about natural differences. That – maybe they translate that as saying like, OK, well, we're getting into sort of like shaky stuff here.

30:10Human nature is determined by – we just talked about this, right, by biology in a big way. I mean not to say that it isn't also determined by social and cultural and environmental cues. Obviously, it's a mixture of both. But this line of thinking – again, I'm making the argument that I can hear an audience member make. I can hear them too. Okay, good. I can hear them too. This line of thinking has a habit of supporting like gender stereotypes, right, and maybe even discrimination in the sense of like the strict gender binary that we were just talking about. Look, women belong at home, supporting their husbands.

30:41Husbands belong out in the fields or whatever, in the office. They're bringing in the bacon. The women are there to love and support them. What do you say to that? So that's one of my speaking points I've been accelerating lately, dabbing more into women's issues again. Something that I speak on a lot is that the past few decades of pop feminism, I feel like it's actually been almost a little bit of a form of misogyny. because in the eyes of female empowerment, we're actually telling girls and women that their womanhood, their motherhood, their natural, general, generalized, more natural traits are bad and they'll be more valued if they were more like traditional men.

31:35This is sort of the girl boss phenomenon that I call. Yeah, and don't get me wrong, I'm a professional woman. A lot of my friends are professional women. But this way of saying, oh, to value women, we need to downplay womanhood, downplay motherhood and tell them to be more like men. To me, that's misogyny. Maybe the clearest form of misogyny ever. To have value, you have to be more like a traditional man. So I feel like over the last few decades, in almost like a desire to reach an economic parity or something like that, we've actually put womanhood down and woman down. And I believe that with gender equality, it's all about valuing the sexes equally, not pretending they're the same.

32:19And when we pretend they're the same, that's what fuels the gender wars. It fuels the crisis facing boys and men today because all of a sudden we really become competitors. And then we see all the resources and the attention and the compassion shifting towards girls and women. And we're seeing the consequences of that pitting against each other. So to me, I know it can sound conservative-leaning, but in my opinion, I'm a true feminist because I'm saying that we need to value girls and women. There are differences, right. Yeah, and it's okay. We can promote. You can do whatever you want. I'm all for freedom.

32:57I'm all for women becoming CEOs, choosing their own paths in life. But we don't have to tell them. They have to be more like men. We should be telling them that they're powerful and strong and capable because they're women. I mean, I just the line of bullshit to me that always kind of annoyed me was this like you can have it all kind of thing. It's like, well, nobody can have any. I have it all. That's not I mean, women can't. Men can't. Let's just not have the world works. Right. But this and what ends up happening here is and again, I'm going to be very careful here. I'm a man. Right. Take what I don't know anything.

33:33Right. Other than my own experience. But you can draw a direct line from what you said just now to the declining fertility rate in this country, not just in this country, around the world. Around the world. Right. Especially in the West. Because many women are – young women are putting off motherhood and marriage to do what people like Sheryl Sandberg have been telling them, which is go for the career. Go for the C-suite. Do it first. Put everything else to the side. And then what ends up happening? well, you reach maybe, I mean, again, this is being generalizing here, but you reach a place, maybe you're in your mid-30s or your 40s, and well, all of a sudden you just got laid off, because guess what?

34:13Your company actually doesn't give a shit about you. They don't love you. Right? They don't love you. They don't love you the way your children would, the way that the children that you put off having would. They won't be there for you the way that your husband or wife or those kids will be. So again, I just think it's all connected. It is. And so there's been a big, hot debate right now. I don't know if you've been following it about Girlboss because... Tell me. Okay. So it kind of started a few months ago. There's a Helen Andrews piece. Oh, yeah. She's great. Oh, yeah. I do remember that. So it kind of started there.

34:46But then about a month ago, Institute for Family Studies, who I write with, they kind of came out with a collection of essays on kind of like get married young with different people talking about why we should maybe encourage, you know, not to delay family till your 40s, you know. And I was one of the writers sharing my story in a piece. And it sparked a lot of controversy. Just a lot of people on the other side were saying that they're blaming girl bosses for the low fertility rate when they're actually having babies and this and that. And I had to clarify what I was saying. I can only speak for myself.

35:26But I'm not targeting the girl boss women. Technically, I am a professional woman. I don't have a family. I'm in my 30s. I'm almost, I'm kind of the result of girl boss, anti-motherhood, anti-men messaging. So I'm saying, look, like I have friends. I have seven close friends. Only two of us have children. We're in our late 30s. Oh, I see it among my own. And we're the generation, so we're like kind of midway millennials. So we grew up in the 90s in elementary school with girl power messaging. Then we shifted into the girl boss messaging of like the 2010s, like that era. And so out of us seven close friends, only two have children.

36:12And we're all talking now. We are the kind of results of that. It feels like something's shifting. Something's shifting because there's a lot of us who are just kind of questioning our choices. I mean, me and myself, I see full clear I take responsibility for every choice I've made. But we're starting to be like, hmm, what did this messaging do? You know, like talking about motherhood as a burden and things like that. It's out there. And even one of my older friends, she's a little bit older than us. she went in to get her eggs frozen at 42 and they basically laughed her out of the clinic they were like sweetheart you should have done this years ago i've heard similar stories it's heartbreaking she was crying in the parking lot but she believed like oh well maybe if i freeze my eggs now and there's just a article last week in british vogue saying waiting till 49 to have a child was the most self-aware decision i ever made i'm like why are they putting out these messages there's a thing called biology.

37:13And maybe you can cheat it if you're a billionaire. Exactly. If you have the money resources. But even I'm saying in these pieces now, like it's not even something I actively chase these days because there are so many risks. I actually wrote an article for Evie on the risks to the mother and the child. Oh, of course. Of having a child later into your 40s and stuff. So I find it very irresponsible for us to be, and for what? Economic parity? Is that what it is? No, it's for, what is it actually for? It's for corporations and shareholders, right? I mean, they want as many people, you know, smart young people in the workforce as possible.

37:53And especially women, because the only job sectors that are growing are female-dominated job sectors. Exactly, nursing, teaching. So they don't want you having babies and dropping out of the workforce for a few years. They need more women in the workforce because that's the way our economy is moving. Exactly. Right. The economy has to keep growing. How are you going to keep growing and feed more people into the system? And then the music stops during a recession or during some, you know, an AI apocalypse. And all of a sudden, yeah, you're out on the street with no no job and hopefully no, you know, no families in some cases.

38:23Exactly. I feel like I think it was Forbes. They said like 50 percent of women are going to be single like in a couple of years, like not having families. And the research shows that once you hit 30, your likelihood of having a child drops like to 50 percent. You know, and women don't know that. They're like, oh, I'm going to wait until my career and then wait, wait, wait. Until my career gets here or here or here. Right. And that's why I've been sharing my story because I'm like, you can choose what you want to do in life. I'm not telling you to be barefoot pregnant in the kitchen. That is not what I'm saying.

39:02But if that's a goal in young women's lives, don't put it off forever. Keep love as a priority. You know, like it's not all about, you know, self-status stuff. If that's – don't listen to the world right now because you might wait too long. And the world wants something from you that you might not want for yourself, right? And it's true that that is just not instilled in us when we – I mean, especially our generation growing up. I didn't hear any of that. And I would actually argue it's not even – this is not just a – I mean it is in some ways a gender thing obviously. But it's also – like I think about this in terms of parenthood, right?

39:36Like when you're a guy and you're in your sort of like 20s or 30s, the idea of having kids is always framed to you as like, oh, yeah, you're going to have to settle down. No more hanging around, chasing girls, and you're going to have to change dirty diapers and all of the bad stuff. It always gets front-loaded, all the bad stuff. It's going to ruin your social life. It's going to make it harder for you to succeed at work. but it's never the good stuff nobody ever says to you you don't understand what it's going to be like to have a little kid and have that child attached to you like you're like it like it's a part of you right and you know i'm just my daughter's old enough now where like i'm getting her into the music that i liked growing up and like to me like there is no better feeling than seeing her respond to like a song that i grew up with like but like that is never told to young boys.

40:25Or to hear them repeat what you say. Right. And you look and be like, oh my God, I'm shaping this little person. And it's never in the conversation. The conversation is always, no, you need to go out there, you need to get paid, you need to take out huge loans to get this education that's going to get you to X, Y, Z. The good thing, I guess I'm saying, is that it does seem like the conversation is starting to change around these things. And unfortunately, I think the reason why it's changing a little bit is because there's been a lot of people who are realizing, wow, I waited too late. Yeah, I was sold a bad bill of goods here.

41:00And again, I'm not pushing some sort of victimhood mentality, but I always say, if you want to talk about victims, what about the millions of women right now and men, too, who realize they can't have children anymore? They waited too long, and now they're like, oh, well, I didn't think this one through, you know? And people can say, oh, the messaging. No, messaging works. Messaging and narratives and what is pumped into us since we're in elementary school definitely instills the beliefs in us. How could it not? I get a lot of people, the messaging, who cares? We're bombarded with it all day. It's like propaganda all day.

41:38Put off this self-status stuff. You want to break those glass ceilings, that'll give you value. you know? I got it ever since I was a kid. No, I mean, again, even not to the degree that women of my cohort did, but even as a man, it was always, right, status, money, right, materialism. And, you know, thankfully, I was able to, you know, find my way to having a family, which is the thing that gives me pleasure more than any, you know. Anyway, I want to do, before we let you go, I want to talk, we could talk about this all day. I know, I could go on about this for days. I think the passion, though, is what keeps you going.

42:16How could you not have passion over this? I mean, this is everything. This is everything. Yeah, and it affects everybody. Every aspect of our society is affected by this. And obviously, there's a big political angle to this. I mean, you've talked about it. You've met with lawmakers, right? You've called for some of the things you've called for, an education system that nurtures all students, a mental health system with effective care for men, a health care system that sort of recognizes the unique need of boys. And what we were just talking about, a culture shift away from these sort of like shaming and victimhood narratives.

42:48Is there a specific legislative ask? Like if you were in front of Congress today or if Trump invited you into the Oval and said, Lisa, what's one thing that I can do? What would it be? Would it be like a federal office of men's health or Title IX parity? There's two. And actually, there's two bills right now in Congress on both of these issues. There's one to create a council for fathers and sons. It'll be a federal interagency council. So I have been part of a group for a decade trying to get this done. It was a council for boys and men. But then the council for girls and women disappeared. Then it turned into a gender policy council under Biden that disappeared again.

43:32But so there's a bill introduced. And we want a council for fathers and sons. and it'll kind of expand to mental health issues, education disparities, and trying to build up our boys and men to become great fathers, which is what we really need today. So that was introduced. Who would be on that? Would it be like famous? Who would sit on a council like that? So it'll be interagency. So each agency. I see. Yeah, so people from like Anishina Sanibur. I see. Everybody would kind of meet on, okay, what are we doing? And it's designed as well. What are we doing at DLU? What are we doing at HHS? Exactly.

44:10How can we work together to address fathers and men's health so that it can do this and that? So it'll be good, too, because it won't be doubling up, you know, not expanding and nobody likes more spending. I was going to say, yeah. So it's very concise to what it wants to do. And then there's also the bill I mentioned, I think I mentioned it earlier, about creating an office for men's health. Yeah. So those are the two things. I think we could get done. We could really just, even the gesture of doing those things will make boys and men feel like they matter, you know? I think that alone could move mountains if boys and men felt like they mattered, you know?

44:53It seems sort of absurd to be like, oh, men need more representation in politics or something, but in some ways we kind of do. Well, yeah, who's going to speak out for you, you know? And I think that's why it's so important. Thankfully, it's becoming more acceptable for men to talk about, for you to talk about it. But for many years, right up until recently, no. As soon as a man started talking about boys and men, dismissed as misogynist. I think we would not be able to do this podcast even a year or two ago. No. That's why that was one of the reasons why I always put myself out there to say something.

45:31because when a woman starts saying it, especially one who, like, I'm not a combative person. I try to be as, like, respectful to people, even my haters, you know. But when a woman's out there saying these things, it's much harder to dismiss her as just a misogynist. I am dismissed sometimes as misogynist, but it's much more difficult. So I'm so grateful now. There's been a lot of women over the years speaking out, too, helping support the very brave men who have stood out and written books and everything like that. But now I've really noticed over the last couple of years, we have Scott Galloway and Richard Reeves and these people out there on mainstream, left-leaning shows talking about it.

46:18So I think we're on a good trajectory, but there's always blowback too. I see you as a new age Camille Paglia. I hope that's a compliment. That is probably the biggest compliment anybody's ever given me. OK. Well, in that case, no, she's a great writer. So thank you very much. But that's the goal, being emotionally mature about everything, you know? And I agree with a lot of what she said. Yeah. Thank you. OK. Well, happily. While I have you, I do want to ask you about this. There's sort of this conventional wisdom out there that young men have gotten a lot more conservative over the last 10 years, but really since the era of Trump and especially since the last election.

47:00But I want to bring this chart up, which we have here and we'll show on the screen. This is from Gallup earlier this year. The partisan gap between young men and women almost doubled in the last 25 years. But what's interesting about this is men aren't changing that much. Men have stayed similar...if you look at this chart, it's basically showing you that men have stayed similarly conservative since the turn of the century. Women, on the other hand, have become much more liberal. 23-point gap now in gender ideology compared to 12 points in 1999. When you look at that, what do you see? So what I see, and the first thing, of course, coming through my perspective of advocating for boys and men, they've taken a narrative since the election, basically saying young men are becoming more right-wing, they're moving that way, almost creating a hysteria, like a panic over young men rushing towards the right.

47:59And when you look at that chart, you realize, hmm, it doesn't look that way. They've stayed pretty consistent. Even in the 2000s, there was more people, more young men who were on the right. And what's a little alarming is why aren't we talking about this extreme of women moving to the extremes of the left, you know? And so when we're talking about the divide between the genders, I feel like there's been a lot of blaming and shaming of men, and it's been used as a speaking point to kind of double down on this is the problem, the manosphere is the problem, when the real push has been for young women going to the extremes of the left.

48:41And more and more people are talking about that today. I wrote an article last week about kind of going back to my own story about the victimhood and everything my earlier years. But we're creating angry young women. And if we don't start talking about it and saying, whoa, whoa, young men have been pretty consistent. What's going on over here? Then we're not going to get to the real issue of this divide, this growing divide between young men and women. And so I think the data is important. Charts like that are important to share, to show people, okay, we might be looking over there, but we're actually supposed to be looking over there.

49:21So again, the first time I looked at this chart, I was like, okay, well, this is probably just a reflection of Trump, right? I mean, Trump's sort of like a world-class misogynist. Women have never really liked him at scale. So you can see how he sort of like shifts the thing. But when you actually look at this, it precedes Trump. It predates Trump. This line really starts to move up in the mid-aughts. You start to see it around 2006, 2007, and then it starts to accelerate in the 2010s. So my theory, if you're interested. I am. It's not that interesting, the theory. It is the theory that I have for everything, which is that it's the phones.

49:59It's the phones and social media. They are the original sin. But they are the almost all so many of our societal problems can be boiled back down to putting the entire world in in your pocket and controlled by these algorithms that are created to make you pissed off and to make you angry. Right. And again, I'm going to get in trouble for saying this, but, you know, I think that, you know, and again, this goes beyond men and women. But I think that men and women respond to these things in different ways. And I think that women tend to be more emotional. I don't think that that's particularly controversial.

50:35These algorithms prey on their emotions. They prey on their self-esteem, right? You talked about men's eating disorders. There's a huge, huge crisis among teen girls. Oh, yeah. Right? Social media, John Hite. John Hite's been all about this. Yeah. Great coverage of all that. And I also think, too, that could spark that divide is that there's a lot of rhetoric that if the role, genders were reversed in it, you would say that's the most misogynistic thing I've ever heard. But when it's women saying it about men, it's ha, ha, ha, ha. Yeah. So I think we have a leniency on misandry being spread online where it's like, oh, it's so normalized.

51:15It doesn't even matter. And then we all know misogyny when we see it kind of thing. So I think that could also fuel that divide of almost like hating men and moving to more of that progressive thing. Right. Well, I think it's just like, again, these algorithms, they get us in different ways, right? So they get men through sort of like the dopamine scroll and then, again, through gambling or through porn or these different sports betting, these prediction markets being the new thing. But for women, it's like I think women are swayed more by consensus pressure, right? They see what others are. And again, it's a big generalization.

51:54I should just say that at the top. This is a big generalization. Just put it on the bottom. Put it on the bottom. But I think women are generally – they're more swayed by consensus pressure. That's why you see – when you see these sort of social media pylons, it's often women, right? And again, I think men have more of a sort of tolerance for conflict. They have a bigger tolerance for disagreement even. So I think that the way that social media works is less – it's less impactful on men than it is on women. Am I making any sense? I don't know if you've seen, there was a chart that was going around last week, similar to this one, that showed that women treat their political adversaries poorly.

52:41And then men treat them, they treat their political adversaries better than women treat their political allies. So you got to see this chart. I mean, you have to send that to me because that honestly jives so much with what I, the emails that I get. From the newsletter that we write in the podcast. And again, I love all my audience. I love even the people who are mean. It is almost the people who are the meanest are the women. Yes. I've experienced the same thing. And when you look at the story, literally, men treat their political adversaries better than women treat their allies. Like, what are we doing, ladies?

53:21It's astounding. And, yeah, again, like I'll get back and forth with some hardcore MAGA guys that read the newsletter and love to like, you know, love to rip it with me. And they call me names sometimes. But it's rarely personal in the way that some women are. And, again, I'm generalizing here. But I do think it's notable. It's something that nobody really talks about. Lisa, before I let you go, you've described yourself as nonpartisan, which I think is fair. Your work does run in Evie Magazine, which is a publication that, first of all, you should check it out if you haven't. They're doing really interesting work in the magazine space.

53:57It's really beautifully put together. It's beautiful. We're trying to bring the feminine back. It's sort of like a new wave of women's magazines. So you should check it out. But it does have a sort of like traditionalist, socially conservative editorial bent. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But my question is, you know, if there's people listening who might come from a more traditionally feminist background and they might be saying to themselves, look, this woman is just trying to roll back everything that we fought for through, you know, the various waves of feminism, rolling back all the way to the 60s.

54:29I'm sure you've heard that before. What do you say? I say that's not what we're saying. And usually people, it's hard to get people to see what you're trying to say and not taking it personally, going through their personal perspectives and their own, you know, glasses that they're wearing. But what we're trying to bring back is a love for being women. It's okay to be feminine. It's okay to be beautiful and to see beauty in things. And we even have been moving like even less political, moving into a space where we can just thrive and love women. And we defend, we really stand up for choice, you know, which I believe, again, is what feminism was supposed to be about.

55:19So I just wrote a piece the other day where we're all writers. We're looking for ambitious young women writing in the magazine. We're not against women. working but we want to celebrate everything it is to be a woman and and um kind of get our priorities right you know like i feel like everybody in in the the world today kind of doesn't have their priorities right so we're bringing back a very feminine and respecting yourself you know these shouldn't be controversial topics you know like the latest issue was a very controversial issue which one because the latest print issue that just came out it's the sex issue and Evie has been framed as like the conservative Cosmo which is kind of funny even to say you know but it's kind of a little bit of a more risque print issue for it's for wives and committed women with their husbands and it's caused a little bit of a stir there's I think the Daily Mail called it taboo if the Daily Mail is calling you taboo that's good that reflects well on you the founder of Britney she wrote I don't know how being intimate with your husband is taboo Is that where we are now?

56:29Is that where we are now? That's what's taboo. But yeah, it's just I recommend, I mean, to be honest, I've been reached out by some feminists, influential feminists in the space, and they're keeping tabs on what we're talking about, especially when it comes to boys and men. Don't get me wrong, not all feminists out there are against helping boys and men. There's a lot. I think most probably are. It's just not prioritized. Yeah, like Melinda Gates. stepped up and invested some money in it, which I called for. I didn't know that. She invested in Evie? No, she invested in boys and men's issues. Oh, I see.

57:04Cool. Which is funny because like eight years ago, I wrote a public letter and I put it out there online calling on her to start investing in boys and men's issues. Probably just went out into the void, you know. But then to see like eight years later, she did make an investment in boys and men's issues. So she's seeing it. You know, everybody's opening up more and more. And when you say somebody like Melinda Gates, who, in my opinion, is like the queen of feminists, you know, of that like strong girl power feminist. When you see even her investing in these causes, then you realize, OK, I think the people on the left who might be rolling their eyes at me right now can be like, oh, well, if Melinda Gates thinks it's an issue, maybe I should think it's an issue, too, you know.

57:52No, it's important. Big names like that on board is important. Well, Evie Magazine, you guys should check it out. Again, even if you don't agree with it, it's just very well done. The journalism is very good. The graphics are really good. So check it out, eviemagazine.com, right? You'll find Lisa's writing there as well as on her substack. You can just go to, is it lisabritten.substack? Yes. We'll put the links in the description, of course. Lisa, I think you're doing really important work. Thank you. And I really appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much. So much. It was really nice to talk to you.

58:22Love to come back from time. Of course, yeah. We'll bring you back. Can I talk about this for probably a week straight? I think maybe we'll do another man week here. Yeah, that'll be fun. And we'll have Lisa on, who will be less controversial than Son Fiker. Okay, Lisa, thank you so much. Guys, we'll see you back here in a couple days.