Controversy Surrounds Manchester Derby, Arteta Fired Up After Win, De Zerbi's Long Road Ahead

0:12Hello and welcome to the Two Robbies podcast presented by Barclays, the official banking partner of the Premier League. Your destination for in-depth discussion and analysis of all the latest storylines. I'm Robbie Mustoe and he's not Robbie Earl but our special guest host Phil Neville. And here are today's topics. Man City see off their bitter rivals in the Manchester derby with a goal from Erling Haaland while down to 10 men after two controversial calls. Arsenal's 2-0 win at Sunderland was anything but comfortable and left Mikel Arteta rather angry in his post-match interview. It's four games played and no goals scored for Tottenham Hotspur as Roberto De Zerbi's men suffer a second consecutive 0-0 draw.

0:49And Chelsea's leaky backline continues to be an issue as they blow an early lead and draw 2-2 with Hull City. That's all we have coming up in today's episode. So, Phil Neville, thank you so much for joining us on the Two Robbies podcast. Our first topic's not a particularly kind one for you, of course, Phil, a former Manchester United legend. Manchester United nil, Manchester City one with Erling Haaland gold in the 60th minute. My goodness, there's two huge things that we will address straight away. That's more important than anything else, I feel like, and we'll do them in chronological order.

1:21the red card to Phil Neville to Phil Neville to Phil Foden did you get any red cards? you had a few red cards did you? I had two how many did you have? four oh boy okay so Phil Foden suffered a red card in the 23rd minute Phil give us your take on it I thought it was a poor decision you think about we've played in derbies and you think about the emotion the tension the feeling you have going into these games Tackling is one of them, you know, get your first tackle in. And there's obviously a ball played from Diaz out wide and Foden gets the ball. Fernandes comes together. I think Fernandes, he kicks at him, he baits him, he sort of like gives him a little bit of a dig and then he reacts, Foden reacts.

2:10And I think what I always think about refereeing and I think they've got a hard job is that it's a derby game. Take the context of the game into it. Do they do that anymore though, Phil? Are they allowed to? I don't know if they're allowed to. I'm not sure if they're allowed to, but I just felt like it was 23 minutes. It was a good start to the game. And there was a flashpoint, and I thought Michael Oliver got it wrong. And where I thought he got it wrong was that his red card came out so quick. He didn't stop. He didn't think about it. There was obviously a reaction, but I think if you're going to punish Phil Folden, you've got to punish Bruno Fernandes.

2:43Yeah, I think the first thing we looked at when we saw it was the position of the referee. Because he gave the red card. And he is probably 25 yards away. And, of course, we get the benefit in the studio here of so many different angles and replays. And I think when you see players kick out, right, in general, and this goes back decades. Remember the day for Beckham with Simeone in the World Cup? Anytime you kind of flick out, you do risk a red card, right? But, you know, we do get the laws of the game out, and it talks about an act of brutality, of excessive force. so I think just look at the Foden thing straight off yeah he kicked out a little bit but a little bit of common sense please it wasn't excessive force it wasn't like brutality the ref's so far away Phil for me he's got to be guessing at some point of how much contact there was the fact that he did I mean all he can see from 25 yards away is that he kind of leaned in and reached in with that movement towards Bruno Fernandes okay so okay but of course the replays you see and then you see, and because we have VAR and our Premier League and they have the opportunity to look at all this stuff, and Bruno definitely kicks out first, deliberately kicks, the same thing, really, Phil Foden.

4:00So I think given the context you talked about and given the fact the referee's 25 yards away, it's a poor straight red for me. I think if we all refereed it with the advantage of the videos and stuff, for me it'd be a yellow card and a yellow card. It's not OK to kick out, flick out, or for Bruno to kick him. I know that you felt maybe it's not even yellow cards given the context of the game. So I think overall it was a mistake. And of course VAR would probably say, well, it's not clear. And obviously I would have given him a red card. But that was such a big effect on the game going down 10 men.

4:34I think Punditry is, 10 years ago in Punditry say, well, you know, we've got all the angles. We've got all the angles. It's unfair on the referees. 20 metres away. He's only got this angle. They've got every angle now because of VAR. They see what we see, they see what the viewers see. And I just think in that moment, in this type of game, there's got to be a degree of, right, you know, they've got somebody in their ear, right? What happened? I think there is definitely from Folden a kick and then another kick. There's a two-stage movement, which is, I think that's why Michael Oliver sent him off.

5:09And bearing in mind, Michael Oliver is one of our best referees. Most experienced. I saw him in midweek, I think he was in the Bernabeu, I think he did Real Madrid versus into Milan. But I just think it changed the context of the game. And I just don't like seeing games spoiled of this magnitude when the whole world is watching through something where we've played the game, we've been in derbies where you think, right, just get your yellow card out. Just quiet the noise a little bit and get on with it. This is how I think it should have gone down. He's got the red card. That's what happened. VAR, hmm.

5:43Michael, we don't think that contact's enough for a red so we'd like you to come over and take a look because just to be clear here and there's sometimes a misunderstanding with this the VAR only gets involved if they think there's a clear and obvious error. There's never we're not sure Michael, come and take a look. No. So they can say not sure that's the threshold for red for us Michael, come and see what you think and I think he goes over and then looks at the whole scenario Phil and sees the Bruno kick and sees the Phil Foden kick and I think he comes to the decision, you know what, Mr. VAR, you're right.

6:18And the red card is rescinded and we carry on. That's how it should have gone down for me. But right now, and we'll move on to this in a second, you know, VAR definitely, or the pro ref, the governing body, this whole back of the referee's first call, I get that and I like it, but this was one where I think this was an error. Come and have a look and I think it would have been rescinded. Do you know what I think frustrates managers and players? At the start of the season, you're on your pre-season tour and referees come and visit you. The Howard Webs of the world come and visit you. They give you examples and what they preach to you is that we want to keep everybody on the field.

6:58And then they'll say, if there is any doubt, we won't rush to flag an offside or to make a red card. And we'll probably use VAR in our ear to say, right, there might have been something there. We might just have to stop play and come back. And that's where I felt about Michael Oliver. The red card was out, where if he would have just relaxed, he could have got somebody here and say, look, there could be a problem here. You know, I think you should go to the monitor and check it. So almost knowing that VAR is there to say, I ain't really sure. Yes. Let's carry on. And then if something crazy happens, then tell me.

7:31Well, that's what happens on offsides. If they said to us about offsides, if there's a tight offside and you're not sure, the minute you put your flag up, they're going to back you really but if you if you're not sure keep your flag down let the play if they score a goal then we'll look at it and get it right i think that's the way that they wanted vr i just felt today as this michael oliver just got the red card out too soon yeah which then meant he was backed into a corner and they had to back him yeah in such a big game yeah that's a good point so the other one we get on to the other the controversial the goal the early harlan goal at the back post i think the ball comes in phil and we uh and we're thinking oh he looks offside and then the longer it went on I'm thinking if they give this then Herland's obviously onside where the angle looked a bit dodgy but I get that there was but it was the Enzo Fernandes thing because I think we all knew while he's in an offside position wow do they really think he's not interfering with play because the delay went on and on and on I remember saying in the studio if this has given us a goal we've got to get rule books out here because this looks like interfering The minute for me you start, I think it was a great point in the studio, the minute you start asking for rule books and clarification of words within a paragraph or within a sentence, I think for me you're taking away that feeling of football.

8:48When I watched it, when we watched it, when the whole world watched it and that ball came into the box, I think the Haaland one, I think we were 50-50. I think Rebecca said, he's offside surely. But the Fernandes one, he's offside and he's going for the ball and he's interfering with play because of the effect that it had on Lissandro Martinez. He went back in to defend that cross. He went in to defend Enzo Fernandes, not Haaland. That's where I think that... I just think it's going to ruin the next week for all Manchester supporters. The next thing we were looking for is the social media post to explain the decision.

9:26And I have it in front of me. And it basically says, VAR checked the referee's call of no goal for offside and determined that Haaland was in an onside position and recommended that the goal was awarded. And then this final piece, the VAR also deemed that while in an offside position, Fernandes didn't play the ball. That's it. Now, what does that mean? Well, it means he didn't play the ball and he didn't play the ball. But we do have the law, and I think we're going to throw the law up where, you know, the actual laws of the game in terms of interfering with play. And I can read it right here.

10:02I've got it in front of me as well. OK, so interfering with play by touching by... Well, here it is. It's all right there, right? A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a teammate is only penalised on becoming involved if an active play by interfering with play by playing or touching a ball past or touched. He touched, didn't touch it, but the bottom piece is everything. Interfering with an opponent, Lissandra Martinez, by clearly attempting to play a ball, Phil, was he attempting to play the ball? Yes, he was. He was going into it. He's a diving header, like inches away from it, which is close.

10:37Yeah, the ball is close to his head when this action impacts on an opponent. Now that's where we go to the laws and like, I don't get it. And there aren't many times where I sit in the studio, because we're pretty all over these laws of the game, and I'm like, well, that's it. I mean, he's affecting... So that, for me, is a pro ref, like, knock on their door, can you please explain this a little bit more? Because I'm happy to be proven wrong, but as the law is written right there, I mean, it looks like exactly what this part of the law is. He's going for the ball, the ball's close to his head, and he affects, as you said, a defender that comes over.

11:12He makes a challenge on it. the guy that's right in front of the goal. I don't get it. I think that last little paragraph is a paragraph that says that that goal should not have been given. And it's the paragraph that when that ball comes into the box and we see the replay, without looking at any lines, the whole world's thinking, feeling, smelling, that's offside. Fernandes is offside. You look at that last paragraph, clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when the action impacts an opponent. As soon as you read that, you think, that's offside. and I think that's where Michael Carrick, the Manchester United supporters and the players will be, they will be disappointed.

11:51Really disappointed. I mean, and just, again, we don't want to go on this for too long, but the spirit of football, right? It's not an offence to be in an offside position, right? You can stand in an offside position as long as you're not interfering with play. My goodness, can you get any more interfering than the diving header five yards out that as a defender desperately coming back to try and make a challenge. That, whether you look at the fine line, the details or not, that's a guy that's interfering with this action, this attack, and they benefit from it. It's astonishing to me. How many times do you see a shot from outside the box, somebody in an offside position impinging the view of a goalkeeper and it gets given offside?

12:31Yeah. It's no different. Yeah, it's affecting somebody because he gets a big advantage of being in an offside position. Yeah. So that was the two incidents that we... And we always try and be fair with these, but I find it very difficult. Maybe the first one I understand a little bit more, but that offside is a challenge to me. But moving on to the game, Phil, and let's start with City, because they made the right adjustments and they came through and they got the victory, maybe a little bit lucky with that goal. But they were impressive, weren't they? And good work from Enzo Maresca. I thought they were really impressive.

13:03We spoke on air before the game about Maresca. Is he going to have them set up defensively solid? We were worried about Enzo Fernandes in midfield vacating. Shirky's defensive responsibilities. I think the substitution of Shirky at half-time was smart. He got in Jion. Just to come in on that right. He's used to that position on the right. Shirky's not. And I just felt as if I saw a team that grew with the red card and a team that just froze up. And I think what I saw with City was, what did Haaland say? Personality and character after the game. I saw a team that came together and the celebrations at the end.

13:40What do you think of celebrations? Is it important for that team to bond because it's a new team and the manager? Was that what we were seeing there? Yeah, normally I would say that's well over the top, Watford won. But I thought it was, we're a new team, new manager, new era. We want to put Pep to bed. This result is a statement. At Old Trafford. At Old Trafford, down to 10 men. I always think when you win with 10 men, it's almost better than winning 3-0. Because you're showing characters and you're showing characteristics that probably people doubted like we did. And I thought that the celebrations from the manager and the players and the supporters at the end was one of a team that said, right, this is a new era now.

14:17As we have you on the show, Phil, I want to switch quickly to Manchester United because there's more questions about their performance. I mean, firstly, for me, I was just disappointed after being pretty high on their front players, their midfield players they brought in. This was the time to see it with an extra man. but it felt like this wasn't the game they really prepared for or wanted. Talk us about why they struggled so much to put City under more pressure. I felt that when it was 11 v 11, United played almost like the underdog. They were compact, they were counter-attacking, there was no pressure on them.

14:53The pressure was on Man City to be the protagonist. The minute that they went down to playing against 10 men, I felt then as if all the pressure went on to Manchester United. It was like, right, now we need to go and win this game. And they did the same against Hull, the last game against Everton. I think United aren't at the stage yet where they can dominate, like City, like Arsenal, where they are still... I look at the squad, I still think there's a lack of quality. Even after updating the front line and the midfield this summer? Good signings. Telemann is a good signing, Santos is a good signing, Belieber is a good signing.

15:34I look at the wide areas. Manchester United have always had good wide players. When they went down to 10, you think about making the pitch as wide and as big as possible. On the wing, the service from the wing was really poor. Everybody wants to come inside. They did. Almost like letting the full backs be the wide guys. Yes, the full backs be. And are they, in terms of quality, I've got to ask you about the full backs. Dalo and Dorgou, is that enough quality to hurt City given their advantage? No, not for me. I honestly, I think when you're a full-back, you need somebody in front to play with.

16:08But I think they miss Luke Shaw's quality and composure. I just think there's a lack of quality. I saw it against Hull City. Can they break down a team that's going to be camped in? No, they couldn't. Against Everton, they had a lot of possession. Didn't really create that much. And I think that's going to be the biggest test for Manchester United. Under Michael Carrick so far, they've beat the top teams because the pressure's been on the top teams to beat Man United. The minute it turns around and now there's more pressure on, is can they find that magic? And I think we'll see in the next few weeks.

16:40There was a lot of talk, I think there's more noise in the UK about Manchester United, right? And any time they're not flying and winning a bunch of games, there's always going to be scrutiny on the club and the manager. Now, you know Michael Carrick very, very well. I know him a little bit, played against him a little bit too. How much does it turn up the heat for Michael Carrick? I know the ownership there is not thinking about doing anything crazy, but the noise, how far will it ramp up after this one? The noise, the thing is, they won't be able to hide behind the poor referee because when Man United lose a game, the noise ramps up.

17:14I think he's set after the game, and I think he's quite calm and measured. The way he played, Michael, is the way that he is in his life. He's calm, he's measured. He doesn't get too up, he doesn't get too down. and I think he'll need those qualities in the next three or four months. But I think he said after the game, we need to get back to winning games of football. I think they had that at the end of last season. They had a real momentum and spirit. They seemed to have come back and just stuttered into the start of the season. I think when he looked at the fixtures at the start of the season and thought, right, Hull, Ipswich, Everton away, let's get nine points on the board before we get to the City game.

17:49Because the City game, anything can happen. but because he didn't win those games, it ramped up the pressure for this game and I think the more you don't get wins at Manchester United, the more that the pressure gets ramped up. We don't feel it as much in America but definitely in England they do. I look at the fixtures, next weekend they've got the Fulham away. Fulham have had a poor start, they look a little bit poor as though, they did get a decent outcome this weekend. Does that ramp up the pressure now on Carrick and the team to get a good result at Fulham next weekend? How important is that game going to be and how is it going to go?

18:19I mean, you've got the midweek win in the Champions League, I felt, oh, that's come at a good time. They played a team that was winnable, so that was good. They scored some goals. Fulham, because Fulham will be looking at game and thinking, right, we can get our season back on track. Fulham, I remember going to Fulham with Everton and Fulham with Man United, two totally different games. One where, with Everton, where it was like, it was just a game of football. With United, it was just like the cup final for Fulham. There's lots of Fulham fans. Is that the same with lots of different teams? Yes, I remember going to Fulham with Everton and I had a feeling, obviously I played at Man United, I said to the boys, this is tight, they're on top of you, and I went out there and it was just dead.

19:02It was quiet, it was dead, there wasn't that feeling and then I realised how, I remember Sir Alex saying to me once, when you are scouting a team, think about Fulham vs Brentford, don't scout like you can't scout a team to play against man united because when they play against man united it's a whole different thing see see i'm from the other side yeah and you're right when you when you came to town come to our stadium that's a big game for us yeah and it's a big game for the fans and we're underdogs and we're going to run our socks off yeah we're going to get in your face we're going to try and make it difficult for you and i always admire that team and other great best teams that they handle every single week or when they go away from home that it's It's like a cup final for some of the...

19:43It's your chance to compete against the best. I went to Everton and I went to the United and I thought, right, I'm going to Old Trafford. I want to show these that I can play at Old Trafford or at the Emirates or whatever. So I think it's a big game at Fulham next week. And Fulham, you think about their results at the weekend, they'd have got a good result. And like I say, the build-up to the game will be pressure. Fascinating stuff on Manchester United and the Derby. Thanks so much for that, Phil. Let's stay with this. Don't go anywhere. Next up, we assess why Mikel Arteta was so fired up after Arsenal's win.

20:12That's coming right up.

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20:54Barclays, the official banking partner of the Premier League. The next one we're going to talk about, Phil Neville, is Sunderland 0 Arsenal 2. Wow, what a game this was. Really, really enjoyed it. A huge penalty saved by David Raja to Enzo Fernandes, or sorry, Enzo Le Fay, in the 56th minute. And then goals in the 58th from Bruno Guimaraes with an incredible strike and Saka with a penalty very, very late into the game. Actually, a red card for Ronaldo as well. Ah, wow. I mean, first off, how impressed were you of Arsenal? I think we both understand and hope that comes across to the audience that Sunderland away is a difficult fixture.

21:31Why is it so difficult? I hated playing there. I think we said it on air yesterday how we used to go to Middlesbrough. There was Middlesbrough, Newcastle and Sunderland in the North East. Be gentle with us. Middlesbrough was always a nice game of football. Pitch was always really nice in Middlesbrough. Middlesbrough liked to play good football. And that suited you guys a little bit. Yeah, suited our guys. Newcastle, there was always a history between Man United and Newcastle, so that was good, but Sunderland was just horrible. it was like it was like just sandwiched in between Newcastle and Middlesbrough it was the stadium big stadium by the way is it 45 or something 45 ,000 there was a little bit of hatred there it was the drive up to the stadium and people I just hated going there for some reason yeah I mean similar for me because it's a local derby for us so that's the time sorry the T's were a derby and played in plenty of scraps and fights there and it was a fight and a scrap And Sonnenberg are very good under Regis Labrice.

22:33Physicality, direct, aggressive, got into the faces of Arsenal. But I think we both enjoyed watching Arsenal kind of flick between trying to play the cute football and quickly understanding, OK, it is going to be one of those games. And they've got the ability, Phil, haven't they? They've got the toughness, they've got the mental, I don't know, resilience. The team, again, the durability of a team to be able to take that and the goalkeeper to come up with the save when he really needs to. and Bruno Gomorris, the Newcastle enemy to Sunderland, comes on and scores a wonderful goal. Everything's going so well for Arsenal and it's really difficult at this point, after four matches in now, to see how Arsenal won't win this title given how much they seem or further ahead they seem with their general performance than anybody else.

23:17I don't know what their weakness is because I think on Saturday, I thought it was a proper game of football. It was physical. It was a running game. It was long throws, crosses into the box. There was commitment, there was tackles. It wasn't free-throwing. There wasn't like 27 passes on a run. There wasn't much flow to the game. So I think what he did at half-time is he thought that this game is not for certain amounts of my players. I need to get players on that have got a little bit more durability. He made a couple of changes at half-time. He brought Guy Maris on at half-time because Guy Maris likes to tackle.

23:53Miles Skelly came off at half-time because he likes to play a little bit more with the ball. It wasn't that kind of type of game. And I just felt as if, when I watch Arsenal, I think they're the most complete team wear. OK, you go into your wardrobe. OK, what shall I wear today? Oh, it's sunny, I'll put my shorts on. Oh, it's NBC day, I'll put my suit on. It's one of those where they just know which outfit to put on to perform on their day. Yeah, amazing it was. And one thing that we were a little surprised of, the reaction of Mikel Arteta. I mean, I teased it earlier on with the topics of the show.

24:26And he was really upset with the referee giving a penalty against Conce's challenge on Dan Bullard. Now, I think, again, we have the benefit of all the replays. And I agree with him. I don't think it was a penalty. I think there's a lot of pulling. And I just think the referees this season are very quick to jump on the grappling in the box. And this wasn't one of those that needed to be jumped on, but it was jumped on. What does it say though about Mikel Arteta and why was he so strong with his like and some of the reaction was like It's worrying this worrying for the game what that was he's talking to the interviewer It's like you saw it, you know, that's that's not acceptable at this level I mean was that over the top feeling if it was why why was he so strong on this?

25:10I think I read a lot about Mikel Arteta in the way you know, you read about how he took his team away and he got a pickpocketer to walk around the restaurants and then he upset their routines in pre-season and I just felt when I watched that interview I thought that's pre-planned. I do, I think I do too. I think that's just there's a strategy behind them with those comments a little bit Sir Alex did it brilliantly sometimes it was almost like to put he would fire for instance if we were in a title run one day and it was like Forrest versus Newcastle playing the week after we needed Forrest to win so we would fire up the Forrest team by saying oh they're they're not going to try next week in Nottingham Forest.