Frank & Dyche Sacked, Man City Lurk Behind Arsenal

0:09Hello and welcome to the Two Robbies podcast, your destination for in depth discussion and analysis of the Premier League. I'm Robbie Musto, he's Robbie Erland. Here are today's topics. It's a bad week to be a Premier League manager after Thomas Frank and Sean Dyche get the sack from Spurs and Nottingham Forest. The gap in the title race door is left ajar as Arsenal's draw at Brentford leaves Man City only four points behind in the title race. And the race for the Champions League positions heats up after both Chelsea and Manchester United drop points and Liverpool pick up a win at Sunderland.

0:42That's what we have coming up in today's episode. Honestly, mate, can you believe this, Premier League? We leave it for one midweek. Two days. Things tighten up, plenty of stories. I suppose we have to start at Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. Tottenham Hotspur 1, Newcastle 2. Another home defeat to Spurs. More booing at the end of the game. And on this occasion, it proved too much. Thomas Frank lost his job, was sacked. after not a particularly great time. I think it's two wins in his 17 Premier League games, five points above West Ham in relegation. Yeah. A shot, Rob, really? Or not so? No. I mean, we talk so much about firings and that, Rob.

1:32This is one that absolutely was there. Not many people are going to complain. The only mitigation, I suppose, you can throw at this is they've done pretty well in the Champions League, but I could list the teams they played in the Champions League, Rob, and it's not particularly impressive. And, of course, all the injuries, a ton of injuries. And, by the way, whilst they look for a new manager, they've got to have a deep look at their sports science department. I'm pretty sure that's three years now, Rob, where they've had a crazy amount of injuries. We all talked about it last year under Ange Postogoglu and was it his training, his style.

2:06These injuries have continued. And, of course, I get there's different types of knocks and ones that maybe aren't muscle-related, but the amount of injuries that football club gets, given the facilities, Rob, we've been to that training ground. It is incredible. It's got to be one of the best in the world. In the world, yeah, absolutely. So if those players were fit, Rob, would it give you a better indication? Would it give Thomas Frank a better chance? Or can I go down this route that I've been reading? And again, I'm unsure of the answer. But if Thomas Frank is a good to excellent mid-level manager, a Brentford manager, are those skills instantly transferable to a big six team?

2:58So at Brentford, where I don't have to have possession, where I can maybe have turnovers, where I might play a Wieser and Bumo and Ivan Tony and go long over the top and win enough games in that position to stay well in the league, be maybe mid-table to ninth, eighth, even seventh. But that's me as a manager. But when I go to a big six club, Rob, and I've got to dominate possession and I've got 60 ,000 people in that beautiful stadium who want to see some football as well as well in games, do those things go together? Yeah, I think that's a fair argument about his managerial record up to this point.

3:38Brentford was, as you described, even to the game yesterday, Rob, I watched the game against Newcastle United. You've never seen anything so chaotic in all your life. And yet, you cannot talk about injuries, but still, we know all those players. And yeah, maybe with the injuries they've got right now, they might be forgiven to be, I don't know, mid-table, around 10th, maybe. but not where they are at the moment and the style of play again. We said, by the way, I'm sure I talked about this kind of unidentifiable kind of approach months ago and it's the same in the game. I don't know what, there's no kind of style, there's no pattern.

4:17You can't see players kind of switching over or interchanging or full backs doing certain things. It's just chaotic and that's not going to cut it. I mean, I would say there's been a series, if you think about it, Rob, I just made a few kind of notes of the situations that's led to this. I mean, remember that kind of early on when the players, I think it was Chelsea when they lost to Chelsea, and they ignored Thomas Frank when they came on. Yeah, they're not shaped. Mickey van der Verne, Pedro Coro, James Spence, kind of turn their back on them. And then, you know, he had a go at the supporters when they booed Vicario, the goalkeeper.

4:55Vicario, yeah, when he made a mistake, didn't he, against Fulham. Yeah, I mean, to the more stupid one of the, or silly really, with the holding an Arsenal cut, the booing at the end of games. I mean, you could go the fallouts with players, Rob, that went to the fans. I mean, this has been a horrible... Even the Christian Romero, Rob, where you kind of, you don't put him out there to dry a little bit when he's made a bad error. And listen, it's costing you a job in the end. Because Romero could be a difference maker defensively. It almost seemed to me, Robin, and it's interesting that you say that, that booing became a part of Thomas Frank's kind of tenure.

5:36Booing players, booing the performance, booing this, booing that. It was like, for some reason, he never quite... The thing that he had at Bramford, where he's seen as a great guy, he seems to get on with his players, he had a real connection with the fans, it just never seemed to happen at Tottenham. I mean, I do think Spurs fans are pretty tough to satisfy. And I don't know what the expectations are. I'll tell you what's interesting, Rob. I did see an interview, Ange Postacoglu was on one of the UK podcasts. Yeah, he was on the overlap, wasn't he? He was on the overlap. Yeah, that's it. And, you know, the bits I saw clipped off were like, you know, the expectation levels.

6:19And I wanted, after his fifth place finish, you wanted to crack on and sign certain players. And it was all, it was like, well, you know, our wages and their wages. I mean, I get that. I would say, Rob, I mean, Arsenal found this after a new stadium. And can you, you know, can you understand, Rob, that when you've built a magnificent new stadium, there's got to be a few years of being a little bit more frugal, given that expenditure. Agreed. Has he got a little larger? Agreed. I mean, he also basically said in that interview, and it was one of the headlines that, again, you pick up, that Spurs are not really a big six team.

6:59He kind of went down that route a little bit, Rob, in terms of spending and what they're doing. I think he said they brought in two or three teenagers and he got one of the target players that he was after. But he won it. And again, listen, maybe this is just Ange having his puck because it's the first time he's become public. there's enough quality there Rob to have a lot better showing of what we've seen than what we have it would seem to me the right manager hasn't knitted what this team has got now, are they ready to win a title? No, are they ready to challenge for a top six spot? Yes But they're in a relegation fight my friend aren't they?

7:42Right now, right now they are They're literally in a relegation fight and you know in terms of the next guy to come in, I mean, I know they're probably going to go for an interim because I think the feeling is at the end of the season, there'll be a lot more coaches available. I'm sure they'd love some of the bigger names. I mean, by the way, there's going to be a lot available after the World Cup. Richard Pochettino, my friend, I think we can kind of say mostly that returning managers doesn't really go very well. I think Mourinho or Chelsea was maybe the exception his second time, but it rarely works.

8:20Of the bigger names, what are you thinking? I think up to this point, I think it's going to be amazing to see the next guy come in right now. It looks like it will be an interim. Yeah, it looks like an interim. Yeah, what are you thinking, Rob, about that? So the three I'm hearing, the Deserby, the fiery Deserby, who's now left Marseille, by the way, who doesn't last very long and usually doesn't end well, a bit of Marino-esque in the way it finishes. He's Poch, obviously, the US national team manager, who's obviously going to do his best for a World Cup with this group. But you sense maybe that that will be the end of his tenure then.

9:00And then Andoni Uriola seems to get a mention, Rob. That I like. That I like. I like all the three. But it might, Iriola might be seen as a bit more of a Frank, although I think he has a bigger imprint in the football he wants to play and how he wants to play it. I think, you know, their form has dipped a little bit, but I think players look like they enjoy playing for him. Players get better playing for him. He kind of fits the mould of Pochettino before Southampton. I remember Poch was at Southampton and doing a decent job. and it was like, okay, let's give him the next step. He feels the closest fit to that for me and for that reason, I would probably go for him.

9:48Well, it looks like they've got a verbal agreement with Igor Tudor. Yeah. Former Juventus coach, isn't it? That's right, yeah. He'd been into him. Finished eighth. Finished eighth with Juventus. Not great, not great. It didn't last very long. No, it didn't last long. But, you know, the sort of guy who might just take the reins. What would he... The North London Derby would be his first game, wouldn't it? I mean... 22nd yeah pretty sure this is not agreed yet all i would say is this this little decision is massive to keep this team in the league it's absolutely massive if the board is joan lang i think they just they've just appointed another uh sporting director of whatever there's so many different moving parts of spurs and to maybe behind the scenes and in the boardroom and the directorships and all that stuff's all getting changed and moved around a little bit but this decision as the interim is huge to get this ship somehow, you know, on a stable footing to avoid relegation.

10:43On the bigger picture, I can give you somebody they probably ain't going to be able to get, and ones that maybe the Spurs fans will turn their nose up. You know, it's hard finding the flipping Goldilocks scenario. So I'm sure he wouldn't get in, but Xabi Alonso would would be dreamlike for Tottenham. But again, given what he did at a club that's kind of not one of the biggest ones in Germany. Yeah, yeah. Young players, a style of play. But I mean, I can't imagine, I can't imagine he's going to come to Spurs, but you never know in the summer. And then back on your thought, Rob, the ones in the Premier League now that have kind of proven themselves, one more than others, the ones that are out of contract, Marco Silva.

11:25Marco Silva, Rob's got good experience. He's been around the block a little bit. Again, I think the style of football is really good. It's expansive. We've seen that with Fulham. You'd see a difference between Marco Silva and Thomas Frank? I would. Absolutely. I would. More defined football from Silva. More defined football. He's a fierce, I think he's a fierce competitor. He's got experience. I think he can handle the bigger players. So Marco Silva would be in my reckoning. And Oliver Glasner, Rob. I mean, you know, that's the three, isn't it? With Uri Ola. The three that are out of contract.

12:00Oliver Glasner, you know, there's a lot of people that really rate him very highly. And I do too. So there will be two. But would the Spurs fans, Rob, be happy with ones again like Thomas Frank that's coming from the middling, the smaller one, making the step up? Or is it going to be the... I mean, I mean, Xavier Alonso, I mean, it looks like the biggest, biggest ones are going to be after him. But maybe if those jobs aren't available for Alonso. Without it being rude to Spurs, it's a great stepping stone for him to go back to another big one, top, top one. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a good job at Spurs.

12:39Yeah. Again, I think there's some big clubs, bigger clubs that might want him. But if he's still available in the summer, my goodness, I'd try and get him. I think the question, Rob, comes down, and you've mentioned about sporting directors and there's a lot of change at the football club. Daniel Levy's left. Do we trust the people in charge? Do we know that they'll kind of make what we feel is the right decisions to get the right guy? Because it's been a mess, Rob, so far. It's been a mess for a lot of times now. Well, Daniel Levy is still blamed for the current malaise at Tottenham. And when you say, do we trust them?

13:17We don't know yet. They haven't made many decisions, have they? I mean, this is the first kind of test of the new, I don't know, the new people's in position directors and stuff to make the right calls and decisions all i would say rob and a more positive note for topman right is that that stadium that 62 000 people uh and the way it can generate revenue from from different activities different sports the nfl coming over and etc etc it's it's a it's a london club it's a big london club there's no reason when that when maybe the the stadium's a bit more paid off there's more kind of they're going to generate a lot of revenue this club this stadium's going to generate a lot of revenue you know they've got to stay in the obviously stay in the premier league and maybe get back into european football but what i'm saying is the longer longer term there's no reason why this club can't really challenge because it's revenues and we know that it's a big london club london and their stadium is optimized for revenue i've got the answer so i'm beyonce is a striker and then i do concerts you can do we can earn revenues on both listen even Harry Redknapp was saying if they need me this week I'm available Harry Redknapp so as we always it's always a story with Spurs but as you say entering a really important time between now and the end of the season get it right to make sure they're in the league and then give them Charles a chance of getting the right man come the summer maybe after the World Cup let's move it to the city ground my friend where Wolfhanton and Nottingham Forest playing out a 0-0 draw so Nottingham Forest have 35 shots I believe in the game and actually 2.8 still couldn't score a goal, a draw with Wolves obviously, the poorest teams in the league, that's destined for championship football now and I'm afraid after, what was it, period in shorts, John Dyche becomes the third manager in a season to be sacked by Nottingham Foyce and their owner, Mr.

15:22Maranakis. Not taking any time to pull the trigger, mate. He's looking for his fourth manager of the season. And all the news we're hearing is Vito Pereira, our Brenton Wolves, is going to get the rest of this season. I mean, the Fourth manager of the season. That's insane. Incredible, incredible scenes. Let's start with Sean Dyches first, the outgoing manager, who I never felt just quite... It always felt Sean Dyches was a little bit on the outside at Forest. I never quite felt he was appreciated that much by fans. He started to get the defensive side right. Yeah, the results were good early, weren't they, Rob?

16:02The results were good early. Yeah, and we thought, OK, here goes Dyches again. but it never seemed to kick on, Rob, from there. And again, a little bit of unrest, a little bit of lack of maybe what Forest fans are hoping to see. When you think what Nuno had done, I think seventh place finish, European football, this should have been a season to enjoy for Nottingham Forest and it's become a very, very difficult season. Yeah, I mean, Sean Dyches is... I mean, by the way, I watched the game, the second half of it and most of the first half, and the amount of chances they had. It was incessant attacking and they just couldn't score.

16:41You know, they had some brilliant opportunities and it felt like a matter of time before they were going to win the game. Obviously, they didn't. 0-0, you get the booing. And I think I said to you, that's Podrom. Or we chatted about it. Yeah, you did mention, so he won't score too long. If they don't beat them, he could go. But it still was a little bit like, oh, God, he has gone. Like, this is... I mean, that's... it's hard to define Sean Dyche on this kind of tenure at Nottingham Forest. But, you know, even at Burnley, of course, he did really well to keep them up the league. But they kind of gradually got worse over the time.

17:15And towards the end there, when he left, there was kind of drifting again. Similar to Everton, wasn't it? Similar to Everton when David Moyes went in and refreshed the whole club to a certain degree. Yeah, exactly right. And they started winning the game from nowhere, Rob. Yeah. From the same group. So, gosh, what a quick exit that is. Vito Pereira will bring energy, and he'll bring his – because the energy that was totally gone, by the way, at the time he left at Wolves, he was absolutely, like, a different human being. But I'm sure he's recharged your batteries and faster in danger. I mean, it's going to be an amazing race against relegation.

17:54And it could be a bigger number this year, Rob. I know we talked about 36 points, I think it was. I think I said 36 has been safe the last eight seasons. Has been safe about four, yeah, about three, four seasons. I think it's more, it's eight, because I went back and checked it. So when you've got West Ham finding form, you've got Forrest, you've got Spurs, you've got the ones down there, West Ham, they're going to be the key. I still think West Ham, they've got to do most of all, haven't they, to get out of it. But it's going to be a great race. But Sean Dyche is no longer going to be in it. I mean, Sean Dyche, Rob, at the time, was like, that's a safe pair of hands.

18:27He'd be the guy you'd go to now, Rob, wouldn't you? If you were in problems now. If Sean Dyche was out of work, though, he'd be the kind of guy you'd go, Sean Dyche will keep us up. Well, that's what just happened to Forrest and the lookouts ended up. By the way, without being too cruel about it, because of what's happened here and that kind of opinion you might have for Sean Dyche, he's the guy to keep you up. Are we going to see him in the Premier League, Rob, for quite a while? I think those people have a time and a body of work. and then it was a bit like Tony Pulis, it was a bit like Sam Allardyce and then two or three occasions where it hasn't worked, the football wasn't going, they don't give up.

19:10It's almost like, OK, we need to go in a different direction. So that might be the case. It's going to be interesting with Sean Dyche. I almost feel like Sean Dyche might have to bring a championship team up to maybe get back in the Premier League. But listen, Vito Pereira is going to bring some personalities, to him, bring some character. What did he say? First points, then pints. He goes down the port. I think the Forest fans will enjoy his personality, Rob. He'll bring a little something to it. But they've got a bit of work on it as well. I remember seeing Nottingham Forest. I think it was John Champion was in.

19:45I think it was me and Tim in the studio, mate. It was Leeds beat Nottingham Forest. I think it was 3-1 a couple of weeks ago. And I said to John Champion, body language of a few Forest players is really off, John. You know, it was Gibbs White. there was two others at the back, there might have been Aina or someone, just they didn't look at a good chemistry between the group. And I just thought, that's not good. That's not good for the position they're in. And it looks like it's going to be a difficult one. But Victor Pereira in gives us plenty of headlines. He did good, Rob, didn't he? He did really well.

20:20I remember he went in, weren't they? They were bottom three, nine points from possible 48 when he went in. And by April, there were 12 points clear, mate. an incredible run. So, you know, Forrest will be hoping he can go into their football club and do the same and get them out of trouble. But, listen, he's an owner of Monacos who, listen, he puts his money in, Rob. As they say, but he ain't afraid, whether rightly or wrongly, he ain't afraid to make big decisions and quickly big decisions. Yeah, I don't know how the fans feel about it. This feels chaotic, crazy. But let's see if Pereira gets him out of it.

20:55I mean, I still look back at Nuno Espirito Santo. you know, the first manager right at the beginning of the season. And of course, there's a big fallout and he ended up leaving and he might now chase him down. West Ham United rob a three points behind Nottingham Forest at the bottom of the table. That would be quite the story. If the guy that fell out of Marunakis and everybody at Forest ends up getting down, that would be crazy. Can we change the chat, mate? Can we go back to the... Let's go to the top of the league, can we? Let's go to the top of the league. Let's talk about top of the league.

21:23Where do you want to start? Do you want to start with the leaders? Let's start at Brentford. leaders going to Brentford. I think we all realised this was going to be a difficult guy, a Brentford team that's in a really good group with Keith Andrews, done an incredible incredible job at this football club. So we know Arsenal were going across to West London. It was an Arsenal team that missed a couple of players probably. Obviously the likes of Saliba wasn't available to have it, not fit. Sacker on the bench. Sacker on the bench. It was a slightly different looking team. I think most people thought that Arsenal would get the job done but in the end they became undone by maybe Arsenal-esque a long throw comes in, Lewis Potpour was ahead of after Maduweki scored they had to be content with the draw, Rob that in some respects isn't a bad result against Brentford how Brentford are playing right now but it's a disappointment and it's points dropped again for the Gunners on a night when I didn't think their football was that good I mean, again, I thought they did reasonably well at the weekend and I wasn't over impressed, but this wasn't a good look for Arsenal.

22:28As a half-time came off and Odegaard comes on for him, a lot of things didn't quite work in the manner that Michael Arteta would have wanted. It really didn't. And if you want a game that highlights where Arsenal are deficient, and by the way, we are going to talk Brentford. They were incredible in the match. Let's first start with Arsenal. This was the game. there's a a continued and consistent lack i say lack because we've seen it but when you want to be premier league champions you need it nearly every week of creative quality creative quality a front line of yokarez maruake and trossard and eza they're yeah they're creative players and throughout the game rob it was a struggle for them to create anything at the end of the first half it's nil nil i looked checked at their xg it was 0.12 they don't they don't look like creating too much on the other side of that which we'll talk about man city they've got a ton of creativity they look like strong so much when they get in the final third but defensively very poor yeah it's different with arsenal and this is what that if they don't win the title it's going to be because of this because they get too many draws they don't put teams away when you watch our still rob when you watch arsenal it's like and and you know i'm i'm i'm kind of rooting for them a little bit because i don't know they've been second they've been closed so many times yeah you feel like with the business that they've done go on then go and do it and when you watch arsenal when i watch it it's like are they gonna score are they gonna create too much you're like it's a struggle to score in in certain games of course there's been many where they have but it's like when you really need your creativity and to somebody do something special and it got me to thinking robbie old star quality and i'm talking about i'm talking about premier league champion star quality and i would say arsenal haven't got the superstar forward that so many champions have in the in the past even with previous arsenal teams thierry henry and dennis berkamp van persie go to different teams like man city and de bruyne harland david silver liverpool with mo salah chelsea with your lampard your drogpers maybe your hazards you know you know and Saka's the closest thing to that yeah you say Saka probably am I what do you think what do you does it I mean I've heard this argument somebody else posts something similar a little while ago I heard similar comment like that one guy that that star guy now I think what we know with Orsul is they haven't got that star forward but we're kind of saying that goals come from other areas, Rob.

25:09They may be doing it in a different way. Defensively, probably, it becomes a bigger thing with Arsenal than the attacking man. They've probably got star defenders. You know, Gabriel and Saliba, probably the best centre-back pairing in the league. So, it feels like the star bit more comes from the defender and only 14 goals can see it. But champions, Rob, need a star attacker, I think, most of them. Yeah, yeah. I don't disagree. And it's not a bad point. Somebody who enjoys that day when Everybody else is struggling. And as you say, Henry, Mo Salah, Aguero maybe has done it. Aguero. One of those type of guys.

25:47But yeah, it's an interesting argument. And part of why for Arsenal, they've got to have all the other parts doing well. So the Odegaards, the Sackers, the Martinellis, and all that. Declan Rice, they've all got to be doing their thing because they lack a little bit of that individual star quality, which in a way, I think we thought Jokeres might fill that gap a bit. And it hasn't at the moment proved out to be that way. Listen, there's still four points clear, Rob, still in the best position, but all of a sudden there's a shadow. And all of a sudden, I mean, I thought at Sunderland again, I know they won and I know it was reasonably comfortable in the end, but I wasn't over impressed with them.

26:31And that's what I said at the weekend. I didn't over like them against the Sunderland team. at the end of the day just come up. And I thought it carried on again. And all of a sudden, we're down to a huge game coming in April, mate. And we'll talk about the team chasing them. But there's a huge game that's going to come along that may have a big decide on where this title ends up. Yeah, we'll track them in a second. I did want to give Brentford, Rob. Yeah, a bit of love. I mean, you know, there was nothing in these two teams for long periods, right? Nothing in it. Arsenal had a bit of a period in the second half.

27:05Brentford finished stronger, looked like they were going to win the game. Talk about every player, no passengers, in every department, they're well organised, Rob. There was times when they pressed Arsenal, so I think I was surprised. It was, of course, a long throw-in. They've got a mix of everything right now. Continued to be impressed with Keith Andrews, who spoke so well afterwards about developing the squad, and we're hungry. It's kind of a young team as well. A lot of young players up there, Henderson and a couple of others. Rico Henry Robb deserves a mention the left full back against Maruake by the way Maruake's got a great header what a good header but in general Rico Henry did a really good job I mean it was a huge performance from Brentford Football Club and I was astonished really at how with all the changes we know about the big lad up front, Igor Thiago I mean they probably had more chances I look back at the header I made him safe in the first half for him.

28:05And they were excellent. Absolutely excellent, Brentford. So, deserve all the credit. And, wow, what an example that is of a club, Rob, that can lose four key individuals and still end up being better. Amazing. When we're talking about Spurs and their set-up and the build-up of the football club, they could use Brentford as an example, mate, in terms of staff, recruitment, directors of football, you know, and plugging in the right manager, the young Keith Andrews, who, by the way, Rob, If he continues to do what he's doing over the next couple of years, there's going to be people looking at this young man.

28:39There's going to be people looking at him, mate. He's done an incredible job. Let's turn it to the other team then in the title, right? Manchester City. Pretty routine. Winsor Mano continuing to get goals. Nicko O 'Reilly and Haaland, three goals in the first half, enough to win the game. I think it's 20 straight defeats or something. Straight victories against a Fulham team now. Some crazy record like that. But City continue to chase, Rob. City won't go away. And if you're Arsenal, does muscle memory start to come in? Do you keep looking in that mirror and thinking, oh, God, here they come again?

29:16Maybe. Maybe. Because they're coming. And they're getting healthy. And Ribbon Diaz started the game, Rob, alongside Mark Haye. Phil Foden started the game instead of Shirky. You know, you've still got some amazing footballers at the club. Nico Raleigh is such a versatile player. He does a really good job in midfield. They're winning games again very easily. Now, again, we've always said about them that, I remember you said a few weeks ago, Rob, the defensive side of things, if they fix that, then they could go on an incredible run. And I feel like Diaz is so important to that. I mean, Vardial is an important player that's not back yet.

29:50Stones is close, isn't he now? Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be relying much on John Stones. But Diaz and Gehi, two central defenders, you've got an outstanding, outstanding goalkeeper. but you've got a striker that's back on the score sheet. They win games easily. Phil Foden maybe has something to prove, Rob. He's been out of the team for a lot. With Ryan Shirky on the right side. I suppose the question is, Rob, and I'm still not sure that City are that City team who can go from here on 12 in, let's say, and win them all out. I still feel there's a careless kind of turnover nature to them when they lose possession that they can be got at.