REPLAY: Pornhub Exec Alexzandra Kekesi Discusses Pulling Out of the South, Trad Wives, and Feet Pics

0:00For all the wolves on Wall Street and the taubes out there. For all the people who have blood, this is for you. Until the 28th of February, the POE will open and we will take your first order provision to 500 euros. FlatEx. Better to right hand. Investing has a risk of loss. The conditions are valid. The external costs fall on. 4.4 Media is on break. While we're away, we're not leaving you stranded. We are resurfacing a few of our earlier interview episodes. You guys have told us that you've really been enjoying the weekly one-on-one-style conversations we've been doing for the past few weeks.

0:32So we're revisiting them and a few of the conversations we had earlier in the year, just in case you missed them. In January, I talked to Alexander Kekesi, VP of Brand and Community at Pornhub. A lot of our chat covered the sweeping age revocation laws that passed across the U.S. and beyond since then. In the months since, we've seen even more passage of these regressive laws. And earlier this month, the U.S. just hit a halfway mark in terms of total states to pass their own A-B laws. We talk about a lot more than that, though, so I hope you enjoy.

1:30We just reported one of those, so watch out for that. Gain access to that content at 404media.co. Usually the podcast includes my co-founders, Jason Kebler, Emmanuel Myberg, and Joseph Cox. But today, you just have me and a guest. I am delighted to have with us Alexandra Kekesi. She is VP of Brand and Community at Pornhub. She took that role in August 2023 after working for Pornhub and its parent company for more than a decade. but she's joining us today from Montreal, which is where Pornhub is based. Instead of going on like a long ramble introducing you, I would love to just jump right in and have you tell us how you got into this gig.

2:12Like what's the, what's the backstory here? I know that's always like the number one question for people in the industry is how did you get into this? Yeah. And it's funny because I don't know if anyone ever has like a satisfying answer or I don't think so, right? So I actually did a degree in gender and sexuality studies here in Montreal at the Simone de Beauvoir Institute, which is part of Concordia University. So this whole world was not something new to me, certainly coming out of school. And it's where I would say that my genuine interest in sex work as both a feminist cause, you know, in so many ways, but also one of bodily autonomy was really born, I guess, was when I was in school.

2:58I had the pleasure of, you know, learning a lot about it from certainly from an academic standpoint, obviously, but then through a number of different mediums. So I learned a lot about the ways that different laws criminalize sex work around the world, even in some ways how sex work has quite literally influenced the way that certain cities have been designed, especially here in Montreal. all. There's a long history of how sort of the Red Lake District evolved into today's contemporary Chinatown, sort of right around the port. A number of my instructors were sex workers. So it was really sort of instilled in me, you know, during my studies.

3:36And it was something that I was, and continue to be very, very interested in. ALO, which was, you know, when I joined the company back in 2013 was then Manwin, then became MindGeek. Wow, it was Manwin at the time. Yeah. Way back. It was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I still have some very ancient Manwin merch somewhere. Oh, that's sick. Yeah. It's my little nest egg for retirement selling that on eBay. But yeah, it was a place that one of my best friends was working at right when I got out of school. She referred me for a job. I started here doing community service or community management, rather, I should say, for one of our smaller brands that's called Tube8.

4:23So I was doing their social media and I was doing support for them as well. And then that kind of just grew into a larger role on the marketing team, doing copywriting, stuff like that. I was working on our famous Insights blog, which I know we're going to talk about a little bit later. The year in the view just came out. So yeah, and I really just matured into the role that I have now, which I love. I think it really allows me to work on all of the parts of the business and in all the parts of the industry that I'm most interested in. Primarily that involves engaging directly with the community.

4:57So I'm very present at events. I'm continuously in dialogue with creators. And I really do think that that is one of the things that sets sort of Pornhub apart from a lot of the other creator sites out there is that this is something that we're, you know, we really try and visibly make part of our identity and of our brand as a platform that really seeks, you know, we want the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to what creators have to say about us and what they think about us. Like we think that information is so valuable and so important, especially the criticism. There've been a number of different updates that we've rolled out on Pornhub over the course of the last year.

5:36There's the ever evolving situation with age verification law. So it's a lot of information sharing with creators, but then also getting feedback. We also actually have a couple of people on our team who like that's what they do. They engage in sort of, I guess, like what the mainstream world would call sort of, you know, focus groups with creators regularly. So these are things that we do where we actively seek out models from our community. We pay them for their time and survey them on different things, you know, to see what we're doing right and then not so right. And then depending on where appropriate, we feed that information, you know, either back to the compliance team, to the product team, whatever, so that we can continuously optimize the process for our folks.

6:20Nice. Yeah. So a lot to do. Yeah. So much to do every day. Yeah. I was just reading a Wired article that came out, I think, last week, and it was called The Sticky Dilemmas of Pornhub's Next Chapter. Go ahead, Lauren. I know it's like I was like damn I can't even I can't talk I've had some headlines of my day that are uh cringe but um that was a good one and you're quoted you mentioned in that story part of the uh part of the job for you is taking flack is what you said from uh performers and people who use the site to make a living so I'm curious um what so I'm curious to you what they're coming to you with lately like what are the big concerns for folks who are in the industry for folks who Yeah, so I guess like the primary one is, it's really a double-edged sword, right?

7:03So it's our compliance protocol. It's one of the big misconceptions I think that people have is that it's so easy to just get content up on Pornhub, right? It's actually quite a complicated process by design before. And I know that you've spoken to my colleagues all about this in the past, so I won't get into the whole nuts and bolts of it. But essentially, before you're even able to upload content to the site, you have to undergo a rigorous verification process to confirm identity. And then after that, your content undergoes its own moderation process. So it's not just like a straightforward linear thing.

7:39It has to get scanned against a number of different databases, which is looking for anything from the metadata containing a banned word from our banned word list or all the way to known illegal content. So scanning against different databases that contain sort of fingerprints of known illegal content of all types. So on the user end, as far as the model is concerned, what that looks like today is that when you're uploading content to the site, you also need to upload documentation proven consent of all participants as well as their IDs. So that takes a while, right? Like these are each each content creator is really the way that we look at them.

8:15It's like a small business and folks have to spend a good amount of time uploading content and uploading the metadata to make sure that the content is finding the right audience. But then there's also the whole sort of checklist when it comes to the consent side of it. And, you know, sometimes because we do rely on third parties for parts of that. So for the verification part, like if you don't have like, I don't know, all of your software up to date, your cookies are, you know, bogged up or whatever. There can be like that kind of friction that can be really frustrating for people because then that obviously also incurs delays to when their content is going live and they're counting on their content going live for that content to earn money.

8:56So it's a lot of those kinds of conversations. And certainly, you know, this is not unique to us. This is something that's happening sort of industry-wide across the creator space, not just limited to adults. And I think ultimately, like, it's part of something that's overall quite positive. It's contributing to a safer internet. But then at the same time, like, you know, just from the user standpoint, we do understand that, you know, it's not super easy. And this is, you know, especially for creators that have been in the business for a long time, like people that have, you know, been there since the age of like VHS DVD to then internet, like it's so many, like it's a lot of change all the time.

9:33So I understand how that can be frustrating. But, you know, the good news is that we do have a robust team of folks that are available to creators. Like, that's another thing that we really pride ourselves on is that you're not going to get some like, you know, chatbot AI generated support thing where you have to like, figure out how to hack it so that you can actually get access to a human. And like, I can't tell you, you know, like you've dealt with that before. Like it's like impossible to speak to like a competent human being sometimes, like when you just have like the simplest thing that you want to solve either with like, you know, your internet bill or whatever.

10:08So we really try and remove that friction from the experience for our creators and have people available to help them with this kind of stuff. We also have a number of different resources available on the blog from everything from the more technical aspects of it to, you know, how to succeed on the site, how to make the most money possible. So we really try and make ourselves available on that front as well. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would imagine just everything is, like you said, everything is changing so quickly from the creator's point of view and also from like consumer's point of view, things are changing too, which I'm definitely excited to get into that with you in a little bit.

10:43But yeah, I just to back up a tiny bit. So like your day to day sounds wild, very busy. But when you first started this job, something that I thought was really interesting. And you talked about this a little bit in the Terms of Service podcast, which is fantastic. I'm a fan. Thank you. But you talked about the decision to go public, like with your name, because for a long time, Pornhub was like, I mean, it was always like the shady company that's like running porn. And it's like all these kind of like conceptions about it as like something that's the opposite of transparent. It's very much like opaque leadership.

11:17And I thought that was interesting to kind of to say, you know, I'm going to say this is me. This is my real name. And I would love for you to kind of explain a little bit like what that has been like, because immediately after you took that role, you know, there was there were quite a few like kind of interesting tabloid like angles taken that were like, you know, we're like Pornhub promotes this like female. executive they're bringing on a woman it's like you know like she's pretty qualified like they're not just like here's a here's a chick like let's put her in front of the the public um but what was that like for you because that's such a shift from how you were working to step into the to that role in that way yeah that was so annoying because like you said i've been here like since the dawn of time um so if anything it's like i don't know i i would certainly understand that reaction like you said, if they had just kind of plucked someone out of the ether and been like, okay, we're going to, you know, do some window dressing here and you know, that'll be that.

12:15But I've really been like living and breathing this brand and this, um, you know, this industry for over a decade now, like in June, I'll be celebrating 12 years with the company. So I'm really happy to be here. And honestly, it, you know, it was a conversation for sure, uh, where I had to tell my folks, Like they obviously have known since day one that I work here, but it's a different thing for sure to be sort of public facing. But I think, you know, if we're talking about sort of the main hindrance, I think, to the adult industry today is stigma. Right. And that is something that we see at every level.

12:52So when we talk about things like banking, like sex workers, in many cases, you know, not having access to mortgages, even though they might have millions of dollars in the bank, they can't get a mortgage or they can't buy a house, you know, as part of a certain co-op because the members of that co-op don't want, you know, someone like that to be part of their community in that way. You know, the whole genesis of the podcast that I have terms of services from the fact that we got booted from Instagram. So like erasure on those types of spaces. And so that was one of the major things really that informed my decision was that, you know, if we want to start seeing things getting better, it can't just be sex workers that are advocating for themselves.

13:36Like we also need people that are part of the industry that are, you know, it's sex work is what pays my rent. It's not me doing it. It's our community, you know, so I think that's part of the responsibility that we have as part of, of, of this community. Like I really do see myself as part of the sex work and the adult industry community, you know, to be out there and to be vocal and to take up that space, not instead of, I think, you know, in concert with sex workers themselves and, you know, advancing those causes. Because if we just kind of keep it in the shadows or we're relying on the labor of the people that are primarily impacted by a lot of these struggles, by a lot of these issues, like that's not fair either.

14:15And we're certainly not going to get anywhere. Yeah. Have you had to deal with like any like harassment or people kind of like tracking you down? I know that people in the industry often, that's why they stay, you know, private with their name and, you know. Yeah, exactly. That was, I mean, and that was, you know, part of the motivation, certainly, with previous leadership, which I can understand. But then what we saw was that, you know, when we're not visible, when we're not accessible, then other voices or other theories or other, you know, people are very happy to occupy that space and tell stories that we don't necessarily want to hold or stories that are not necessarily true about us as a company or about the industry in general, which can have its own set of harms for sure.

14:59um yeah i got some interesting dms absolutely you know i try and avoid reading the comments as much as as possible you know when i go on other podcasts or whatever else articles about me but um honestly i really really love my job i feel really privileged to have the job that i do there are many more uh pluses to cons i would say for sure yeah yeah it's just i mean i like taking on like a new job it's like i mean it's already like stressful and it's like oh let me like do a personal news post or like put it on linkedin or whatever it's like it's such a different ball game when you're like i'm gonna be like the marketing face of this very famous porn company um i am glad that you guys are going the transparency route and um being like hey we're people and i know the other leadership has been doing that too yeah since i guess last year ish Yeah, we were acquired in, it was March of last year.

15:57And I think that, you know, that was one of the main sort of priorities that they had as new owners was that they really wanted to put an emphasis on transparency and accessibility so that there would not be any, you know, in an article anymore, you're not going to see like Pornhub could not be reached to comment or ALO could not be reached to comment. the only way that I think that could happen today is like, and this is so annoying just because sometimes we do use, um, email addresses that have, you know, like Pornhub press or whatever, something like that. And it's like, it just gets stuck in people's spam.

16:29Um, yeah, that's real. Yeah. It's so annoying. Um, even sometimes, you know, just communicating, like, even if it's with my, my email address, just like the fact that it says like Pornhub and it's like, obviously, yes, it will say that, but it's stuck in people's spam. So yes, it's very irritating. yeah I've had to get creative sending emails before it's like if you're emailing like a like a professor at like a university for comment or about something and it's like I know that this is never going to get through their like firewall for the emails like what can I like how many words can I come up with for porn I'm using the word adult all the time um yeah so it's been a crazy year uh to say the least so yeah let's get into the annual year in review so this is like a big You guys have been doing the year in review forever.

17:15Yeah. Well over 10 years at this point. Yeah. And like, it's always a ride. This year, I don't know. I find it super interesting and a little bit strange. And like, my frustration was like, oh, yikes. When I saw the demure and the trad wife stuff come up, I was like, oh my God. Like, so to give people a little bit of context, this year, the trending topics, like, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is not like the most popular stuff on Pornhub. Yeah, exactly. This is like what's seen the most growth. So the word demure, searches for demure, rose 133%. Simple sex grew 55%. Authentic sex was 43%. What is simple sex, I wonder?

18:00I know. I was like, what's the opposite to, like, complicated? Complicated sex? Yeah. yeah the things people search trad wife was up 72 percent uh amateur wife uh 21 percent amateur porn wife or amateur at being a wife we're not sure uh traditional wife traditional wife 34 percent uh increase and then there was a bunch of different mormon sex terms which which you attributed to the secret lives of mormon wives yeah show

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23:33My first thought about all of this was, oh God, like we just had a year of like, like the discourse has been like kids are more puritanical now like gen z doesn't want to see sex in movies and then of course like the in the states at least like this rise in like mainstream conservatism and these kind of very honestly concerning to me um trends happening in society and then the first thing that people are searching for on porn hub is stuff that reflects that. So I'm curious what you made of that. Like, what was kind of your reaction to this? I mean, I think like what's interesting about the year interview or even searches activity on the site in general is that, like you said, it is, you know, it's certainly a mirror of what's kind of going on in society in general, right?

24:23Because one of the things, you know, that makes, I think, the insights so valuable and so interesting to look at is that we do have so much traffic, right? We're hovering somewhere around the ballpark of like 130 million daily visitors. So when you see those fluctuations in, you know, traffic or these spikes in searches, like it really is indicative of like real trends or real change in society. So, you know, certainly Trad Wives, for instance, like that was huge this year with like the big, you know, the pieces about Ballerina Farm and Nara Smith and whatever else, like, you know it's it's only normal to me that it would be on Pornhub as well that people want to see you know is there content that sort of depicts something like this much in the same way that you know when a a new Batman movie comes out we see searches go up for those types of characters for Batman and Harley Quinn and whatever else so it's it never really like surprises me that we're seeing what's happening or what's popular in like general sort of like zeitgeist discourse um be reflected there too yeah yeah i mean i um i talked to a few people who make make content and also people who study it and um this like the i think the reaction that most people had who i talked to were like yeah of course like it was the same kind of thing it's like oh yeah like yeah of course they're they're searching for these things because it is a fetish already it's like it's been a fetish since the like the 50s or something it's like it was never like it was never really real um so of course people are carrying that over into their sex lives and like trying to fantasize about um you know like stay at home mom's making pie and looking hot it's like yeah naturally and also i think and this kind of goes back to the instagram thing it's like um those platforms are so safe for work you know like quote unquote safe for work um not safe not not our work um but safe for somebody's work and they will shut you down if you do any kind of like anything near um showing too much side boob like it's just yeah it's a crazy strict algorithm that they're running so like the content creators who make that stuff i think often kind of know that it's a sexual fantasy as well.

26:40It's not just an economic or social fantasy. It's like a sexual thing too. So I think that's really interesting that creators have picked up on that and said, let me make some more of this type of content because people like it. I mean, we also give them that information, right? Like monthly, we send, like that information is accessible to our creators. They don't just have to wait for the year in review. We make a point of being like, you know, this is what's doing really well on the site. You know, do with that what you will. And then people, you know, roll with it. And then we see that they see success.

27:12So, yeah. That's so interesting that they can see that and they can kind of react to it too. I'm sure that's super useful. But like you said, I mean, they also definitely don't need to wait, you know, for us to tell them. Like, content creators, especially the ones that are very successful, are very, very smart. And, like, they know that if something is happening in pop culture, like, I just saw that Joanna Angel, you know, put out a Luigi Mangione-inspired. uh that's so good yeah stop oh my god I love her yeah she's great immediately about that yeah yeah like so creative because it's and it's just like yeah obviously that's been like dominating the news cycle for like the past two weeks now like of course yeah someone is gonna yeah yeah yeah is there anything outside of like the the porn hub um like the insights ecosystem that you see happening in the culture or the conversations that are going on around sex that are kind of getting your eye lately?

28:10Like what's kind of, yeah, there was actually, so when I was just in New York, a couple of days ago meeting with a couple of writers and this really interesting parallel emerged and this, this came up in a couple of different conversations where, you know, a lot of writers these days are, or, or independent creators are getting on Substack, right. Which I think is so great. And I think is, you know, such a great way of, of supporting people like we've seen it on with patreon and i you know i support a number of different people on sub stack and i love it because it just allows me to see like not only this kind of like unfiltered version of these of these writers but also being able to consume more of their content and then they're fairly paid for it and we all realized like you know sub stack is kind of only fans for um for journalists in many ways and it was like just like such an interesting thing.