Nas, Grandmaster Caz, Steve Stoute & Ben Horowitz on Paying Hip-Hop’s Pioneers Their Due

0:00I think in life it's impossible to do anything great if you start with what's possible. You have to start with what's right. Hip-hop's not that big. Like the guys who made the art form are not that many. And so why can't we honor them? Acknowledging and celebrating and then bringing this group of people together is something that the industry should have done a long time ago. When people see me and they see my passion, this nigga still got it. He's still doing it because I have to. Hip-hop don't have social security. You have to work. The whole thing about hip-hop is about to grow to be better.

0:35And I think we are living our lyrics with Peyton Flo. I want everybody to know around the world what Grandmaster Kaz looks like and to celebrate him and applaud this man for what he's done and celebrate Roxanne and celebrate Melly and the DOC and everybody else who's had these achievements. The thing is the honor. The thing is putting you in the light that you deserve to be in. If you're watching this and love hip-hop.

0:59Erik Torenberg:Hip-hop changed music, fashion, language, and culture. But many of the people who built it never received the recognition or financial rewards that matched their impact. In this episode, Ven Horowitz and I sit down with Nas, Grandmaster Kaz, and Steve Stout to tell the story behind the Paid in Full Foundation. and its mission to honor hip-hop's pioneers. We discuss why the foundation pairs financial support with recognition, what happens when generations of hip-hop artists come together, and why giving these artists their flowers is about more than an award. And Kaz shares what that recognition has meant firsthand, from his place in hip-hop history to how Peyton Fult helped change his life.

1:44Erik Torenberg:So this is the first time this group has gotten together to publicly talk about the Paid in Full Foundation. Guys, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. So, Ben, why don't you introduce the foundation and maybe let's get into the origin story as far back as you want to go as to how this came to be. Yeah, so Paid in Full is an organization meant to honor the legacy of the people who created one of the most important musical art forms of all time, hip-hop, and make sure that they're paid in full financially, spiritually, and culturally. And the idea kind of started with me, Steve, and Nas. So it always bothered me that I bought, paid in full, the album, for$10.

2:29And I got, you know, in my career, and people in tech know this, I probably got at least$5 million worth of value out of that record. But there was no way to pay it back, and it needed to be paid back. And so I had the idea originally, and I called Steve. Steve and I have been friends for many, many years. And I said, Steve, I have this idea. What do you think? And he said, well, it's not only a good idea, but it's a very timely idea because people are talking about this right now, but they're not doing anything. So if you listen to the podcast, people are saying, oh, these rappers, these old guys, they don't have any money.

3:06They're dusty. They're this, they're that, and all these kinds of things. And these are very, very important guys, but nobody's doing anything. And so I thought, well, let's do something. And then the next call I made was to Nas. And Nas had a great insight because a lot of the concept, our dear friend, all of our friend, Quincy Jones, had a thing called the Jazz Foundation where he would get money to the old jazz guys. And I told it to Nas and Nas said, that's not going to work that way in hip hop because in hip hop, you can't just give somebody money. It has to be more than that. It has to be a recognition of what they did and who they are.

3:50And so that's when we got the idea of, well, let's have a big awards show, have this idea of the Grandmaster Award for the true greats of hip hop. and then invite everybody to honor these guys. And we started it off with two all-time greats, Scarface and Rakim. Well, I'll just add to that, if you don't mind. Before we even got to the first show, it was also timely because Scarface was going through a medical condition. Yes. And I remember I was in south of France, and I called him, and he needed to get his kidney. to get his kidney from his son, a kidney transplant. And it wasn't the right doctors.

4:37Obviously, there's a lot of care and concern on that anyway. But more specific was the money and the doctor who was performing the surgery. And I called him, and I've known Scarface for years, but, like, when I called him literally from the south of France in June and he got that phone call from me about what we were going to do, he was in shock. I mean, just imagine the phone call come randomly from a guy you hadn't spoken to in two years. And I'm calling you about your medical condition. And I'm telling you that we got you financially. We're going to help you. And I remember calling Ben after that and saying, look, I spoke to Scarface, man.

5:14And he was in disbelief. In fact, early on, people were in such disbelief. They didn't believe that it was real. We had a hard time. They thought it was a scam. We had a hard time actually helping people because they didn't believe it. Yeah, I have some stories on that of I don't even know if I can mention the names. But we had people who literally didn't get the award because they thought it was a scam. Yeah. They just didn't want to mess with it. And that's actually what reinforced the belief that if you celebrated the artist and it didn't feel like you were giving them something like reparations, but you were actually celebrating them and give them the honor and dignity they deserve that they had not received properly, then that would be the way that it would be accepted and celebrated.

6:07And it wasn't until we did the first one. And it was, you know, like any other startup, you duct tape and whatever we got to do to get this thing going. But we had Scarface and Rakim. And then, obviously, the support of the board and having Nas on the board, and that all helped. And then it started to go through the community. There is something that's happening, and that's when it worked. But literally it was disbelief from the initial phone calls and just initial reach out, like, why would anybody do this? That's how fucked they've been for so long. Like, why would anybody come look and try to help us now?

6:45Yeah, and how fucked the rap community has been, like, to not show love, to be so divided, to act like it's every man for itself. You know, rap is competitive, but at some point we got to bring it around to what it's supposed to be. And it was funny, like nothing like this ever existed. It's sort of like when you were talking to me, I was like, why hasn't this happened? Like, I'm in the right circle of people to be talking about the right thing. And it was almost like it was daring for us to even to do something like this. Yeah. Well, it's one of those things where I think somebody got to step up at some point.

7:25And that's the thing about history in general is people act like things are inevitable, but they're not. Somebody's got to do something. And that's been the thing that's, you know, once it's done, it's very obvious. But until somebody steps up, it doesn't happen. And actually, I met Kaz in New York kind of right around the first year. And I remember we had a great conversation. but then kind of going back and re-understanding how important Kaz was. Like, Steve, let me ask you this. In a different circumstance, in a different kind of timing, how big would have Kaz been? Kaz, I talked about you after I met you.

8:10I speak about you. The fact that you are so charismatic still right now. Right now? That you hold no bitterness in your heart and you present yourself as a star. I mean, it's clear. If you would have been, I mean, 12 years later, I mean, just forget it. By the way, if you would have actually just got the credit you deserve from the beginning, we wouldn't even have to fast forward at 12 years. But I'm just saying that when you walk into a room, it shifts. You have that level of presence and talent and star power. So I think it's definitely ageless, the time period. But it was shocking to me that, again, everybody had known what had happened to Kaz.

9:00It's the original sin of hip hop. Not enough people knew, though, at the same time. Not enough people knew, but the right people knew. The industry knew. Yes. The music industry knew that. 100 % of people knew. The music industry knew. Yeah. I mean, Kaz wrote the rhyme that became Rap is Delight. I mean, those were his rhymes. With his name. With his name in the rhymes.

9:26Erik Torenberg:The first hit. And it was stolen. The first hip-hop hit was stolen from him, and he didn't get what he deserved. And everybody knew it, but no one ever did anything about it, never said anything about it, didn't give a fuck about it. But when we were having our board calls and we were thinking about who we were going to honor, I mean, one of the privileges of having this group of people looking at the cases and deciding who we're going to give the award to, you say certain people's names and it's unanimous. It's like, it's like, it's like everybody, it's like, yes. And then everyone's arguing why their yes is more yes.

10:09Right. Because it's like, yo, Kaz, yes. But you don't understand why I said that. Because everybody's so delighted that we nailed the person. And then you meet the person. And it is so beautiful when they walk in the room. Right. And, like, we've been blessed to have honored people who not only deserve it, but when they got the phone call, they didn't come in with about time or, you know, any of that kind of energy. They came in smile, bright, glowing. You know, I think about Kaz and Shantae when I just think about, you know, that, like just glowing. When Roxanne got the award and she said, you know, her child ever said, a child never said, you know, mom, you see all these rappers, these female rappers getting all these awards.

11:14Don't you ever feel bitter about that or you don't feel anything about that? She's like, no, I didn't want that award. I wanted the right award. Yeah. Paid in full. And I was like, that's awesome. That's awesome that we were able to do that and to be able to give these artists that recognition right now. And then having the artists be a part of voting for the future recipients, right? So Kaz is now a recipient, and he's part of the committee who's voting for future recipients. And that's the gift that keeps giving about this foundation. And Shantae is one of the reasons I'm here. You know, she's from my neighborhood, same neighborhood.

11:59And when she released Roxanne's Revenge back in 1984, Before 1985, she was a kid, older than me, but a kid. And when I saw that she could be on the radio rapping and going after men, it was like she was like an activist and beating them. She was like an activist, a woman's activist, you know, because that was unheard of in hip hop. And when I saw her be that bold and to challenge a whole established rap group and change the course of this whole thing, for me, that was incredibly inspiring, you know. So to have her be a part of this, you know, to me, it's still crazy, you know. I love it. For me, when I was kind of brought in, you know what I mean, you know, I had no idea what was going on.

12:54I just know somebody that I know from a while back reached out to me I hadn't heard from in years. And that was Quincy, QD3. And I'm like, Q, what's up, yo, this and that, such and such. He's like this and that. He was pretty vague, but he was like, I want you to come downtown and, you know what I mean, this and that. And that's when I met Ben and everybody. And I really wasn't fully, you know what I mean, but I was being vetted to some degree. You know what I mean? we want this guy let's see where his head is at let's see where his attitude I've seen or heard about other people who deserve but don't you know what I mean I just came just with my spirit and the fact that so many people these guys had alluded to earlier had brought this up earlier or brought up the subject yo we should give the old school dudes a million dollars I think Swiss Beast really made it public.

13:55Shout out to Swiss. Not to interrupt you, but I just did. Sorry. But I had to say it. When you were saying that, you reminded me of something. I spoke about this in a magazine, I think in the 90s. They asked, what would I do? Or maybe the year 2000, they asked a bunch of hip-hop artists, and I described this to a T. So somebody pointed that out to me. last month that I forgot I even said that. You planted this. So we've all been wanting this type of thing. Sorry to cut you off again, because I just got excited at that memory. And I would debate hip-hop with Ben. I would debate hip-hop with Steve forever.

14:40Me and Steve will stop speaking about disagreeing. Me and Ben will analyze the album to death. Ben got with you and sent me a video of your conversation about Sugar Hill Gang and everything. I couldn't believe that you cared so much being from the Bay about the origin story of some of the greatest hip hop history ever. But I shouldn't have been surprised. But it was just like the care that we have for the culture is the same. like Kaz like I talk to you about history every time I approach you I'm stalking you about what happened this year and that year and the other so it's not just the pay the full thing is like a it's a way that we convinced ourselves that we can be together and we can get together and not just talk about it from afar we could actually talk to Kaz we could actually be in a room with And it's not just this thing that's so spread out.

15:47It's bringing us together. It feels like a class reunion. Yes. And last year, when Dr. Dre heard about Peyton Fullon and decided to come, I was in shock that he asked me, could I introduce him to Kumo D? He never met him before. Yeah. And I was like, this is, first of all, I would never even think of that. You know, not that Dr. Dre never met Kumo D before. So Dre did this to me too in Vegas. He said, could I introduce him to Slick Rick? He never met him before.

16:34Oh, my God. Go ahead. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. It's just a wild, it's wild that it took this foundation to bring these type of people together. And the bond is that strong. The bond is so strong that 25, 30 years removed, Dr. Dre, with all of his glory and success, is like, man, could you please introduce me to Slick Rick and Kumo D? but at the same time that it took this celebration in order to bring these legends together in the same room agreed to create that moment yeah i think the industry itself like separates us you know by success status you know what i mean who's hot who's signed yeah who this and that You know what I mean?

17:29So I haven't if I see Nas, it's like by happenstance or something all these years. You know what I mean? Mutual respect. You know what I mean? But I don't see him all the time. If he reaches out or something, as he's did in the past and done a project and say, yo, Kaz, I want you to be a part. I'm on it automatically. I ain't got to see him or none of that. Just say it. And I'm there. You know what I mean? Now I see him every year. I can call him on the phone. Steve Stout. You hear about Steve Stout, big business, man. He done made this person rich. It's a special moment that is growing every year.

18:08Yeah. It's growing every year. And to Kaz's point, this idea of separating artists, I'm not sure why that happened. I'm not sure if it was the industry's doings on purpose or was it just the fact that rap was broken into like old school, new school, this, that, and the third? So they just, it was just no connection. But the truth of the matter is that the real artists have respect for the person that they had, their postal on their wall. Definitely. The first CD they bought or the first CD, the first tape that they bought. And that respect that inspired either me as a businessman or Nas as an artist or Ben as a businessman, whatever it is, that will never, ever go away.

19:04Like sports heroes, it never goes away. And so the foundation acknowledging and celebrating and then bringing this group of people together is something that the industry should have done a long time ago. And like there's been attempts like the VH1 thing. Yeah, the hip hop honors. Hip hop honors. Yeah. And it's cool.

19:30It's not, it's putting a light on it on these artists, but it's not putting anything in their pockets. Yeah. It's not, it's not investing in the artists. It's not making them feel like they've gotten acknowledged for everything that they contributed. That was a point. It was two things. It was starting paid in full, but also been investing in United Masters. The idea was like, how do you contribute so much culturally, but yet the financial take is so meaningless? How do you pour so much in and get so little out? No respect, I'll tell you.

20:14You know, and everybody became comfortable with that idea. They just accepted it as, oh, that's just the way it is. That's just the way it is. Like, meanwhile, you're changing the way people are dressing. You're changing dialect. You're changing so much in the world. And yet your bank account or acknowledgement for what you've contributed is not even part. It doesn't add up. It's not that's not inspiring. And it doesn't incentivize creativity. It doesn't incentivize anything. Incentivizes people to feel like they've been robbed and stoned from. Right, right. And not to cut you off, in the lyrics of hip-hop, we speak about the total opposite.

20:58We speak about breaking down barriers. We speak about changing the system. We speak about love. We speak about being entrepreneurs and taking this thing into our hands and keeping it real. But then the action of keeping it real wasn't happening outside the studio. You play a record. This dude sounds like he's the realest ever. Then you see him. He won't speak to you. You see him. He's, you know, he's posted up and he's not talking to you. You see him. You could be like, yo, I need some help. He's looking at you. He's laughing at you. You know what I'm saying? It's a competitiveness to the max.

21:35And it doesn't round up being like what the lyrics said. You hear the lyrics of rap since the beginning, since Kaz was talking what he was talking and inspiring and putting his DNA into this thing and bigger groups will come from Kaz and bigger soloists and the rap game will be shifted with what Kaz put down and the lyrics represent one thing, but how are we going to be real when we say with hip-hop we're real and then the actions are not happening? It's just going to be on record? It can't just be on record. The whole thing about hip-hop is about to grow to be better and I think we are living our lyrics.

22:17We're paid in full. And it takes the courage of Ben and his wife Felicia and their foundation to put the money up to match the contribution to be able to fund something like this. I mean, you would think that, or you would hope, that it would come from an organization that benefited financially from. You would write a label. One would guess. One would guess. If you just say, who do you think will help these guys? You'd be like, oh, definitely the record company. Someone sold this person. No, it takes somebody. It is hard for me to sell them a ticket. It's a crazy rap fan. That's crazy. A crazy rap fan.

23:10And Felicia. Who is an entrepreneur who has deep soul and belief and respect for creativity that made this one of his missions to help solve this and make sure the right guys get properly awarded and the respect they deserve.

23:35and I think this year I think this year

23:40is going to be a pivotal year for the organization this is our fourth year and we have a great great lineup it's very well produced you don't walk in first year lucky you wasn't there we were feeling our way through It was a little long. It was a little this, that, and the third. Well, we learned. Like anything else, we learned, refined, got tighter, got smarter. And I think we got it now in year four where it's going to be our biggest year. And hopefully this thing, I believe that as well as produced as this show will be, that it's something that we could take wider. At the same time, I feel like I want everybody to know around the world what Grandmaster Kaz looks like and to celebrate him and applaud this man for what he's done and celebrate Roxanne and celebrate, you know, Melly and the DOC and everybody else who's, you know, had these achievements, these achievements that they've done and contributed so much to their culture that they get a chance to see their heroes on the platform that they respect.

24:57I think when you do something big and important, not only in hip-hop, but in anything, people are going to emulate. People are going to want to follow. If they see a formula that works, Ben, you're a testament to this. You see a formula that works, you want in. And you're going to want to try to, you know, do something. And a lot of people lost, I don't know, face or whatever because all of these, nobody did it yet. Right. And Steve and I have conversations about this kind of thing all the time, but I think in life it's impossible to do anything great if you start with what's possible. You have to start with what's right.

25:39And if you start with what's right, then you have it. It may not be possible, but at least you have a chance to do something great. And so, you know, that's always how I came at it. I was like, look, we ought to be able to figure this out. It's not, hip hop's not that big. Like the guys who made the art form are not that many. And so why can't we honor them? Like it just, it didn't make any sense to me. And then by the way, I mean, you guys were very kind saying, you know, I wasn't a beneficiary. I'm a big beneficiary of Kaz and Nas and Rakim in that they were, you all were the inspiration to my career and one what got me through like a very, very difficult times in business, so hard that I wrote like a bestselling book about how hard it was.

26:33And in the book, you know, I had the rap lyrics, which in Silicon Valley, I actually got a lot of criticism for it because like what are you doing with hip-hop you know is that some kind of gimmick and so forth and I was like no this is credit where credit is due the ideas that I had in business came from those lyrics and that's why the chapters that's why the idea started with the lyric because that's where the idea started and it was just credit where credit was due and so it was my you know, my chance to, in my mind, just do what was right and pay it back. And, you know, look, I'm an entrepreneur.

27:10I know how to build things. So, you know, building a foundation didn't seem that hard. Yeah, no, I haven't. If I got pushed back or like people talked about it bad, I don't listen. I can't even hear it. No, he doesn't. He doesn't hear it. And what you do, you bring people, you invite people who would probably be like have no interest in this topic yeah and you and you bring them there and you know what they do i've seen it convert yeah yeah they go there and they're like on i'll go i'll go for ben i mean whatever i'll go for ben that's a lot of the tickets it's then they go there and they're like oh shit i didn't even even know right right i didn't know that and it connects a lot of dots and there's obviously a lot of empathy how do you not feel empathy for somebody who's invented something right and didn't get what they deserve and that and but we don't the theme of the night isn't that the theme of the night isn't get what you deserve that's the underlying foundational truth and on top of that we celebrate the fact that you are getting now what you deserve.

28:23You are getting the acknowledgement you and the light put on you in the right way by a bunch of people who respect you and that you were chosen to do it. I mean, come on, man. Last year, I met my man Graham Puba for so long. To see Puba up there, that made me feel so proud to have a, you know, like, why would you skip that? It's easy to skip it. It's just like, oh, no, not that. and you got Grand Poobah at one point the greatest rapper oh by the way did it over three different it's funny about rap I don't know if you eras it's not like decades but eras could be four years right it could be a four year where it just changed and if you don't even if you're not part of it you don't even realize how fast it changes right so Masters of Ceremony Brand Nubian Poobah solo career yeah solo career yeah three eras three he went through three errors phrasing and got through that and got to the other side very few artists had done that um and those changes during that period of time were drastic like it was like you were out there a lot of our favorite artists couldn't jump that fence and they got stuck on the other side and then you all of a sudden you're considered old school or you're considered washed or considered not dope anymore, whatever the thing was.

29:48And Grand Poop, I did that. No one's going to sit and turn around and watch this man go on stage and get his props. No one else is going to do that. And no one else is going to put the time in to have the people that understand that nuance. It's easy to write a check. You ever people write checks of things and they check that box? Right. It's not love. The check is being written, and there's so much time going into making sure we get it right. Yeah, because of the love. And in the room, there's love. Even if you didn't think you'd be walking in a room like that, you'd think it's going to be like some type of typical award show or something like that.