The New Rules of Media | Marc Andreessen & Ben Horowitz

16:45Marc Andreessen:And so the message from any company had to get distilled down to the absolute minimum to be able to get through those very narrow straws. And I think that was the corporate brand phenomenon, which is to get the thing down to like an atomic unit of a brand to be able to get it through that straw. And then everybody became convinced that like that was just universally the way the world worked. But I think that only actually made sense. So company as an abstract brand or corporate brand, like I think that only made sense in the centralized media world. And I think what we're seeing as the centralized media world is now, you know, unwinding and collapsing, I think mechanically that's why this new approach is working and is necessary because that's why.

17:22Marc Andreessen:because in the new world, I mean, you know, the many examples of this, but it's just like, you know, do people running for president have to go on Joe Rogan, right? And, you know, up until 2024, the answer was absolutely not. After 2024, the answer is 100 % they have to, right? Like a big part, you know, for keeping politics out of it, a big part of all the Democratic retrospectives of what happened in 24 was that Kamala didn't go on Rogan. 100 % of the people who work in that world now think that the next person is going to have to go on Rogan. And to go on Rogan means you're going to have to be on Rogan for three hours and you're going to have to talk about anything.

17:53Marc Andreessen:And so if you think about what that means, right, for the bar, for the person who's going to run, you know, for whatever party, or, you know, for both parties or any party, like that's the new bar. You have to be able to do that. You have, right, you have to be interesting. And then it goes right back to your question. You have to be the person who can do that. And if you're not the person who can do that, like. Well, you got to, it's a big marketing deficit. Let's just put it that way. Like you, you just put a ceiling on your whole opportunity, I think. The line from Succession, of course, I can't avoid, can't not use based on your question, as Shiv said, if you can't ride two elephants at the same time, what are you doing in the circus?

18:33I would love to hear how you apply this thinking to your own work. Ben, you mentioned earlier, or you mentioned before, that you and Mark spend a lot of time discussing how and when to respond to things publicly and also when to not say anything. And so I'm curious what those discussions are like for you both. How do you decide when to fight back versus stay quiet? And maybe if there are times that you wish you did things differently. Yeah, so I mean, it's interesting with that because anytime somebody says something negative about us, we want to respond. But you have to determine whether that's going to improve your position or they're just feeding you bait to get you to basically highlight their stupid opinion.

19:18it'll always approve your situation to punch back. Yeah, he always 100 % wants to go back at him. And, you know, you have to have some discipline. Otherwise, you just will spend your whole life responding. Like, the bigger you get, the more people come at you. So, you know, it's kind of like the degenerate version is like dealing with the people who comment on Twitter. Or X, sorry. So if you start answering the X replies of people who have 50 followers, by the way, my father always did that. then, like, there's just, like, a colossal waste of time, and you're amplifying somebody who has no audience.

19:56So, like, what are you doing? And then those people shouldn't even be talking to you. Like, they didn't do anything in life to have the right to talk to you. But there you are talking to them and wasting your time. So, like, that's the extreme degenerate case. However, like, if somebody comes out with something and it hits, and it's going after you, that's actually a real opportunity to boost the brand, to come across with your own point of view, your own position. And this could be something in the media or just something somebody does in new media. That actually turns into a real opportunity.

20:33So a lot of, you know, I would say a reasonable portion of the brand that we built was just responding to people attacking us. So that, I always saw that every time that happened as great, let's go. Like one of my favorite things I ever wrote was Instagram. We got into like this kerfuffle over Instagram with the New York Times. We had a conflict, whatever. It was a thing. But then I responded and it was like the biggest, at that time, the biggest post I ever wrote. And everybody was like, yeah, fuck the New York Times. And so it kind of took us from here to here in one shot just because everybody loves a fight.

21:13So fights are good for brand building. But you've got to pick the right fight to not just build somebody else's brand.

21:20Erik Torenberg:Well, to that end, when I, you know, picking the battles, when I first joined, I would bring up these negative tweets we were getting and say, hey, you know, these Anons are saying bad things about us. And you guys would be like, who cares? Like, this is, in fact, part of our success means we're going to have more and more people who are saying negative things, so.

21:38Marc Andreessen:Well, specifically, they were saying things based on the things that we were funding. And they were like, you know, it's just the whole moment. Yeah, slop. You're funding slop. You're funding slop. It's like, bro, like, it's great that we're funding things. Yes. Like, even if you think that, what is better in this world than the transfer of wealth from people who have a lot of money to people who have ideas and want to build something? Like, even if we're wrong about everything, like, that's still good for humanity. So, like, shut up to you, hater. Yes. Idiots. Haterate. So, yeah, and then, you know, my response was no.

22:15Marc Andreessen:That's a great thing to get criticized for as we're funding startups and supporting those startups. That's fantastic. There's a kind of point within that that is also kind of an important change in new media, which is you really want people to hate you and you want people to love you, but you don't want to be neutral. You don't want to be lukewarm because then you're uninteresting. So you're only, you can't be interesting and not have people both hate you and love you. Just because there's too much, no matter what you do, there's too much jealousy and just haterade in the world to not have it be that.

22:46Because as soon as you get big, that's what happens. There's nobody, I used to, when people used to get upset about like things that were written about us, it's like nobody writes a puff piece on like Rupert Murdoch or Elon Musk or like it's never going to happen again. Like it's over. When you get to a certain size, people hate you. And that's good. because that means you did it. You did something important. You made a mark on the world. People care about what you're doing. And you have to take it that way. If you take it like, oh, I got to stop doing that so people like me, you'll ruin your marketing.

23:18Erik Torenberg:Yeah. Mark, you've sometimes said the term, you know, they have all the right enemies. So it's picking, you know, the right people to hate you that galvanizes the people to love you. What about building the right marketing and media team in the age of new media? What have you guys learned or what advice do you have for CEOs in terms of making sure you get the right personnel or what's the principle that you think about building that team? Well, the first principle is if you're trained in old media, it's very, very, very hard to do new media. So you have to be a very exceptional person to make that transition because it's like, if you spent 10 years doing old media, there are laws of physics.

24:04There are rules of the game. There's things that you do every single time in terms of, you know, like, you know, from vetting reporters to rude Q &As to this and that. Like everything about it is opposite world. And so there are very few people who can go, okay, I'm getting out of opposite world and I'm going into a new media world. So you just have to be careful about, for the new media side of what you're doing, to hire too much experience in not new media. It looks like marketing, but it's not the same. It's a completely new skill set. So I would say, like, that's probably the thing that I'd worry about the most.

24:48And then, you know, like with Eric, what we looked for when we brought you on, for example, is the best thing on new media is have you done it? Have you kind of built some brand on something and some audience? Do you know how to build an audience? Because that's the core, core thing. And if you can't do that, then, you know, it doesn't matter if you've got this skill and that skill and the other skill. You have to be able to deliver it end to end. Yeah.

25:16Erik Torenberg:Yeah. And in terms of people we've brought on, you know, like Alex Dinko or Henry or Brent, you know, they're product managers or founders or investors, but they were obsessed with the discourse. They were listening to the podcast. They were writing themselves. You could tell them the proof of work, even though they weren't doing the thing. Yeah. So storytelling on your new media team, that's such a good point. So the reason why Alex is so good is like he's a world-class storyteller. Like, so forget, like, just take marketing out of it for a second. Like, can you put together a story that somebody wants to read or listen to or whatever?

25:49And that's a real skill. And, like, the elite level of that is way higher than the average level of that. And the people who can't do it, by the way, can never do it like that. And many people from kind of old marketing world don't have that skill because, you know, You always would rely on whatever the principal, the CEO, somebody for that story. But if you can build a team that's got multiple storytellers that are good, that's a huge power boost.

26:21Marc Andreessen:By the way, there's a really big disconnect. It goes back to the authenticity point. There's a really big disconnect in how people in the kind of media sort of think about this. Because every reporter listening to what we're saying would be like, oh, there's only two things. There's journalism and there's propaganda. And the mainstream press, traditional press, does journalism. and if you're doing any kind of like direct anything, it's propaganda and, you know, it's quote, unquote, it's just marketing, it's just trying to, you know, kind of sell something. And like I would say, that's a division distinction that we 100 % don't agree with.

26:48Marc Andreessen:And, you know, there's a critique aspect of it, which is I don't think the press does much, you know, what even they would describe as objective journalism anymore. But the positive side of it is, I think it goes right back. One of the reasons you want to be authentic is because you want to actually have people understand who you are. You want to have people actually understand what you do and you want people to actually understand the context within which you're doing what you're doing. So you want to actually explain yourself and you want to explain the world. And like when we talk about storytelling, like it's very much not like storytelling, like a made up story.

27:16Marc Andreessen:It's storytelling of like, here's what's actually happening. In an interesting way with tension, with the beginning and an end, you know, that somebody is interested in falling the whole way. Yeah, that's right. And so as a consequence, and we really look for this as like, you know, when Ben and I get like stuff in the street, like when we're just like, we routinely get told like, wow, I watched the podcast, I saw this interview, I read that post, this or that from the firm. And 100 % of the time, they're like, wow, that was great. I really understand what that topic is about, right? And that's a very honest and legitimate and positive and worthwhile reaction to very honest, positive, legitimate action on our part.

27:56Marc Andreessen:And I just think, again, maybe the other way to put this is this isn't just something people should do. This is like, I think, a responsibility for people in our world and people in tech now to do, which is like the changes that are happening. I mean, of all times, the changes that are happening in tech right now are profound. And they're really hard to understand from the outside and they're really complicated. And there's huge amounts of noise in the environment. And so actually explaining honestly, right, what's actually going on. And I'll just brag on our team. We put a SpaceX post up today, which although it has my name on it, I had nothing to do with running.

28:27Marc Andreessen:I cannot take any credit for it. And I mean, the feedback we're already getting us is the best thing anybody's ever written on SpaceX. And I think that's true. And it literally is, it lays out like the actual truth. And I'm really proud of that. That's awesome.

28:41Erik Torenberg:I want to close with some, going deeper on some advice for founders on going direct. Gabby, I'll start with you. What are some mistakes that you see CEOs making and things to avoid? I would say there's two mistakes that I commonly saw working with founders and they're sort of related. The first one is, it can be very easy to do this too it's a trap to fall into because the timeline feels so addicting but a lot of founders really over index on distribution and tactics before actually getting the message right distribution is really just a multiplier on the message and so if the message is wrong now you've amplified something that is either irrelevant for your business or not the thing that your audience needs to hear or like as we've talked about maybe worst of all It's uninteresting.

29:30And now you've told everybody that you care about that you're not very interesting. So in practice, a lot of founders would come to us and say, you know, how do we go viral or how do we get on Joe Rogan? And if you actually think about it, you could get on Joe Rogan and then not say the right thing. And this is maybe the worst thing ever. And this is important because it applies not just to old media, but to new media, right? Like you could go on Bloomberg or Fox and get the message wrong. And you could also do the same thing with new media or going direct. And so the first mistake is not actually spending the time to get the message right.

30:03And that's the highest leverage, most important thing to get right. And then from there, I guess the next mistake is actually just figuring out how to do that. And the way that I saw that is you can get the message wrong if you focus too much on the inputs as opposed to the outputs or the outcomes that you want to drive towards. And this is sort of paradoxical because the companies that are very successful struggle with this the most because there are a lot of interesting things that you could say about your company, right? There's like so many milestones. The mission is really compelling. There's like a lot of different things that you would want to say, but depending on what you're trying to achieve, the thing that you want to say should probably be different, right?

30:41Just because everything is true doesn't mean it's all relevant or strategic for your business. And so instead of starting with the inputs of here's this huge mess of everything that we could say, let's just say it all right now and hope people remember potentially the thing that we think is most interesting, but we haven't identified that thing. Start with the outcome, right? Do we want to sell to a certain type of enterprise customer? Do we want to hire a certain type of engineer who believes a certain thing about us and our role in the market? So now you can kind of work backwards from there.

31:12Like we know who these people are. We know what they believe. We know what they probably believe or need to believe about us. And we know what feels in the discourse urgent and timely and personal to them. And then we can work backwards and get the message right. And so then going back to point one, you pair that with really powerful distribution and then you have a really winning strategy. And by the way, so a really important point in what Gabby said is that really determines how you have to put the team together. because if you put together a team that you can't have a conversation with where you're listening on your message and what you're saying, then you've kind of done yourself a disservice.

31:52You need the team to help make the story great before they go, because it's real easy to go, okay, market this empty box. There are a few marketers who could probably do that, but it's hard. so you really want the team to be invested in the message and then all the variations you need to distribute that message are going to be really good and on point but if the team doesn't have an opinion on message that's very difficult.

32:24Erik Torenberg:Mark, one of the things we said in the meeting with the growth portfolio company the other week was what you admire about people like Alex Karp or Palmer or Elon or others is the ability to not just focus on what they're doing but also go outside in and talk about what's happening in the world and how do they situate their worldview, their company, their product, etc. Why don't you talk a little bit about that principle and how do people get good at it?

32:46Marc Andreessen:Yeah, so the most kind of common VC story, self-marketing story is, oh, I met this great founder and we went on a walk and then I called him eight times and I thought he was great and I eventually convinced him to take money. The most common startup story is, oh, we're a brand new company, we're all fired up, we're ready to go, it's going to be great, we have a new product, we hope you try it. And I mean, those stories just make you want to stab yourself in the neck, right? I mean, like, it's just like, oh, my God. Like, they're just the lamest story in the world. And I— By the way, details. One of the keys on this is, like, good storytellers have great details.

33:21Details matter a lot. And so the one thing about Mark's thing that makes it, like, so horrible is, like, no details. Just, like, blah, blah, blah. I'm so great. You know, I talked to a founder. He really liked me. You'll probably really like me, too. Like, who cares?

33:36Marc Andreessen:And it's almost, right, it's almost this thing where they come across as like, it's like fake humble, right? Because it's just like, oh, I'm just... They say, I'm humbly, I'm humbled by... That's the most fake humble thing in the world. I'm humbled by, you're not even remotely humbled. And so, yeah, and so it's just the worst. And, you know, there's a whole bunch of critiques. It's sort of, yeah, it's fake bragging. It's boring. It's, you know, it's egocentric to no purpose. and, you know, it's a passive aggressive. And then it's just, it's indistinguishable. Like there's just a thousand. I mean, it's just, it's every, it's every single startup.

34:12Marc Andreessen:It's every single. Everybody can gaze at their navel, right? Everybody can do that. Like there's nobody who can't do that. So that's, that's not a differentiated story. Yeah. And so, and so that's like the default kind of narrative that people fall into. And then, and then it also like, it feels, I think it actually feels like doing anything bigger than that is like arrogant because it's just like, who are we to like go tell some bigger thing? And I don't even know what the bigger thing would be. And like, are the people who tell a bigger thing full of themselves and trying to make themselves look even bigger.

34:36Marc Andreessen:And so there's just this really reluctance to kind of expand the telescope out. But what I always tell people is the exact opposite of all of that is true, which is the story of you and your startup is not inherently an interesting story, but there is almost certainly an interesting story that involves your startup, and that story is sort of the cheat code of it. The story is something else in the world that's happening that is incredibly interesting that your company relates to. And then, by the way, The grand wizard of this is Alex Karp. If you watch his interviews, he never talks about Palantir.

35:10The only thing he ever says about Palantir, Mark pointed this out to me, is ontology and orchestration, two words that nobody knows what they mean. And, like, nobody knows what Palantir does as a result, but it doesn't matter because it's like, you know, like, the future of the U.S. military, Palantir. Like, superintelligence, Palantir. Like, whatever the story is that's, like, really good, like, Alex will go tell that story. Neurodivergence. I mean, like, he's just, like, whatever is interesting, he'll just start talking about. And then because he's the founder of Palantir, the CEO of Palantir, like, that just works.

35:52And I say it like kind of to see, but like it's really a good strategy. Now, he takes it to the very extreme. But like that's the right idea to find the most interesting story that you can, that you can plug your company into and then tell that story.

36:12Marc Andreessen:Yeah, because what happens is then when something happens, right, when something happens in the world, something happens involving the U.S. military, AI in the military, this or that, geopolitics in China. like he's like the first phone call, right? Because he's like, he's the guy who's like been out there talking about that.

36:24Erik Torenberg:By the way, Ryan Peterson is in the audience. He's done a phenomenal job of that. He's incredibly good at that. Exactly, yes, yes, yes.

36:29Marc Andreessen:Right, the difference between talking about freight versus talking about the global supply chain is completely collapsing during COVID and we're all going to starve to death, right? And then therefore, he's the guy who literally goes in 60 minutes to explain to the world that in fact, yes, we all are about to starve to death. From the helicopter, right? Yes, from the helicopter, yes. Look at all those ships that are never landing. Your children are about to starve. Buy Flexport. So it works incredibly well. And then the other thing. And you don't even have to say buy Flexport. It just happens.

37:01Marc Andreessen:It's implicit. It's implicit. And then the other thing, especially for enterprise, anything involving enterprise sales, which is certainly Flexport, but also Palantir, it's just like a big part of it is, are you important enough to like meet with the CEO of your customer? Like, are you important enough to get in the room with the decision maker? Are you important enough to meet with the secretary of war? Are you important enough to like be in the White House? Are you important enough to be with Fortune 500 CEOs? And, you know, I just, I have a, you know, I have a little startup that's doing interesting things.

37:25Marc Andreessen:Does not do that, but I am attached to, and you have seen me talk about like the big important things that are happening in the world and how they relate and that you have, you know, potentially an answer to it. Like that's absolute catnip. Like everybody wants that. And so, yeah, so the way I describe this is just, you know, the trick kind of is don't, everybody just naturally thinks inside out, me and my company and my product out into the world. Don't think that way. Think in terms of like, what are the most interesting things happening in the world, and then how do those things relate to us.

37:53And by the way, this is where CEOs go off the rails because they're so focused on what they're doing that all they want to do is tell their story, and they're not even paying attention to what's going on in the world, which is understandable because you're trying to build something. But to do the marketing exercise, investing and understanding what's happening out there is just critically important. You can't do it without that.

38:19Marc Andreessen:This, by the way, happens also in investor relations. So every company, you know, every public company by law does these, you know, S1, K1, Q, whatever, Q. They do all these things and they like fully have a year, you know, spend all this time and all this effort. And these documents, these filings fully explain everything the company does. And they have every possible, you know, hedge and mea culpa and just like these incredible descriptions of people. And then the annual letters and all this stuff. What percentage of the investors in, you know, Palantir have read the S1, K1, right? like, you know, 0.0001%.

38:50Marc Andreessen:What percentage are seeing Alex, you know, on YouTube doing his thing? Yeah, exactly. 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the amount of time that goes into that document, right? And so you just take that time and just understand enough about the world to put together a good story.

39:05Erik Torenberg:On that note, we'll end with this idea that the skill set is not only something you're born with or you're not. It can be developed and learned and cultivated. I mean, Mark, you were saying the other day that when you look back at Alex Karp's old interviews, they're very different. And so when you look at Alex or Palmer or Elon or Ryan or Amjad, who came here earlier, you look back at their old tweets or their old interviews, and they're nowhere close to where they were. Oh, yeah, it's a skill set for sure. And there are people who are gifted and then people who are less gifted. If you look at Donald Trump's interviews in the 80s, they're very old media interviews.

39:40He's actually restrained. I'm sorry. And then, you know, like he did figure out new media and he's always like super entertaining and interesting, which is kind of the magic of his popularity. So even like at that level, you can develop it.

40:02Erik Torenberg:Well, on that note, it's a great place to wrap. Please give a round of applause for Gabby, Ben and Mark. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of the A60Z podcast. If you liked this episode, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, leave us a rating or review and share it with your friends and family. For more episodes, go to YouTube, Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Follow us on X at A16Z and subscribe to our sub stack at A16Z.substack.com. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you in the next episode. As a reminder, the content here is for informational purposes only. should not be taken as legal business, tax, or investment advice, or be used to evaluate any investment or security, and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any A16Z fund.

40:47Erik Torenberg:Please note that A16Z and its affiliates may also maintain investments in the companies discussed in this podcast. For more details, including a link to our investments, please see A16Z.com forward slash disclosures.

41:06I'll see you next time.