Episode 397: Breaking the Silence of Childhood Trauma and Addiction with Rich Dunning

0:00Rich Dunning: All right, everybody, I want to tell you about today's sponsor, Wired for Addiction. And honestly, I am so excited about this partnership. You might remember Dr. Evelyn Higgins from when she came on the show to talk about the biomarkers of addiction. That episode landed in such a powerful way for so many of you. And I really believe in the work she's doing. Here's the thing. If you or someone you love has been caught in chronic relapse, addiction switching, or treatment that only works for a while, the issue may not be behavioral. It may be biological, and that changes everything. Dr. Higgins and her team actually measure the underlying biomarkers driving these patterns, dopamine, cortisol, inflammation, mitochondrial function, and then build a personalized plan to bring your biology back into balance.

0:53Rich Dunning: She put together a free guide for you. The Biology of Addiction 10 Core Biomarkers. Download it at theaddictedmind.com forward slash wired. That's theaddictedmind.com forward slash wired. There'll also be a link in the show notes. And I want you to know, you are not broken. Sometimes your biology just needs to be understood. And I think that brings a lot of hope. All right, on to this episode. All right, everybody, welcome to another episode of the Addicted Mind podcast. I'm Dwayne Ostrand, and I'm your host.

1:29So you become invisible and you stay quiet. That's how I protected myself. The problem was that that kid took me to adulthood and never left. And, you know, the pain that you carry inside, well, you know, the facade looks great, you know, but it was a total house of cards.

1:51Rich Dunning: Now, sometimes the things that help us survive as children become the very things that hurt us as adults. We learn to stay quiet, to hide what we're feeling, to make sure nobody sees what's really going on. And over time, that silence can become something we carry into every part of our lives. That's something my guest today, Rich Dunning, knows firsthand. Rich is the author of Silence Was My First Language. He grew up in the Bronx where abuse, violence, and periods of homelessness taught him that staying quiet was a way to protect himself and his siblings. He went on to build a successful career in healthcare and medical devices.

2:34Rich Dunning: But behind that success, Rich was struggling with alcohol, shame, and the feeling he was never quite good enough. And in this conversation, we talk about how those early experiences shaped his relationship with alcohol, the moment he finally asked for help, and what recovery has meant for his marriage, his children, and his relationship with himself. But we also get into what it takes to rebuild trust, make amends, and find your voice after spending so much of your life trying to stay invisible. Now, before we begin, a quick note. This conversation includes childhood abuse, domestic violence, addiction, and suicidal thoughts.

3:18Rich Dunning: Please take care of yourself as you listen. It's an honest and deeply personal conversation about survival, recovery, and the possibility of change. So, let's jump in.

3:36All right, everyone, welcome to another episode of The Addicted Mind. And I have a great guest with you, Rick Dunning. And Rich, I'm excited to have you on the show and to talk about silence. I'm honored to be here. Thank you for the platform, man. And thank you for what you're doing. You know, it's great to see that people wanting to help people and you're doing a hell of a job at it, man. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. So let's jump into your story and what brought you to this place today. Yeah, you know, this has been a journey, a 15-year journey, actually. It started while I was still drinking.

4:21I'm nine and a quarter years sober at this point and very happily. So it can be done. I am living proof. That's awesome. There you go. It's probably the best nine years of my life, that's for sure. But this journey actually started, you know, I didn't deal with things that happened to me as a kid, right? So solace was my first language derived from, you know, the way I grew up. I grew up in New York City, in the Bronx, around severe abuse, violence, certainly alcoholism, hunger, and periods of homelessness, you know? And with that, you learn to read a room so you can stay safe in it, right? So you become invisible and you stay quiet.

5:01That's how I protected myself. The problem was that that kid took me to adulthood and never left. And the pain that you carry inside, well, the facade looks great, but it was a total house of cards. I was a drunk, going through a lot of turmoil internally. I never took off the armor, as I like to say. I brought it everywhere. And I brought it to my marriage, to my career, to fatherhood, to the point that it nearly cost me my life, man. And that's how this started. While I was still drinking, I was asked by one of the counselors that I saw, who saw right through me, she was like, you have such vivid cinematic memories of your life, you know, as far back as three years old, why don't you jot them down?

5:47and that's how this journey started. And it took me right into sobriety, which was crazy. I never thought it would, but it did. And that's how this book came together. And it's also weird that I wrote it chronologically as it's happening. So I would remember things chronologically and then continue to write as things happened while I was getting sober. So it's a pretty interesting journey, very cathartic one as well. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about how you started deciding, I guess, in a way to start to write these memories down, right? Because usually, you know, we're caught in it, right?

6:28We're moving along, we're doing our life and something starts to crack along the way. Yeah. I had two fractures. Both happened two months apart. And that was back in late 2009 into November of 2009 and January of 2010. It hit me hard. The first fracture, and it's in the book, my 20-year-old brother passed away. Diagnosis to death was three months. He was diagnosed with a very rare form of cancer. And that just tore me up. I think my drinking took a hard left at that point. And then the second fracture was even just, it just shocked me because first of all, here you have this guy who's an addict who needed to control everything in his life, who minimized everyone in his life because I was sick.

7:22Literally, my body and soul, I'm sick. The alcohol is, I mean, completely own me. and I lost what I thought defined me. And that was my career. Now, up until that point, now I'm in the med device industry. I'm an executive. And man, I was sitting on top of the world, winning accolades after accolades. That year, I actually won a national president's club, which is a huge thing in our industry. And I get a call and that call turns into, hey, I need you to fly down to corporate. And it's like, okay, what's going on? and I was one of about 80 folks that were rift or reduction in force because of an acquisition.

8:04And that blew me away because that's what I thought defined me as a human being, my job. That crushed me. I was the poster child for this company. If you were to pull up a banner and said, what is the company logo? It would have been me. Boy, was I wrong. That was wrong. I mean, it must have felt like such a huge betrayal to you. I mean, your whole life is invested in this. Like you said, your identity is wrapped up in this. And we can talk about a little bit about how that contradiction of the internal struggle and the outside success, right? They're going on at the same time. But once that outside success that holds you all together is somehow taken away, the inside doesn't know how to survive.

8:45A hundred percent, especially when that person doesn't know how to deal with these emotions,

8:52Rich Dunning: these feelings to begin with. So that was like a triple whammy. And, you know, I just, it's almost shameful to say that that was my perspective. I mean, it was the job and everything else came second. And that's certainly not the case today, obviously. And I learned a lot from that experience. I actually had a career three days later, but it didn't change the fact that that particular job was me, that that's what defined me. Even though I had another powerhouse position competing with the old company, it didn't matter. I never recovered. I didn't recover for years, actually, if I'm going to be frankly transparent.

9:32It took a long while. I probably started to realize what the workplace in general meant and where it belonged on a totem pole, if you know what I mean. I used to live to work. That is certainly not the case now. That's for sure. What do you think all the work, you know, investing so heavily in that part of your identity did for you? What was it protecting you from? Yeah. So when you're called a dog all of your life by the people who supposedly love you, that was your name. That was my name for the first. I started at five when this stranger who turns out to be, I don't even know that he deserves the name stepdad because I don't want to insult great stepfathers out there.

10:17But this monster from the age of five to about the age of 17, that was my name. And of course it rocked me. You start to believe it, but at the same time, you still want to, not that you still, you want to prove that wrong. I'm not a dog. So I've been in my career for 28 years. I would say for about 20 of those 28 years, man, I lived as an imposter. I never belonged in those rooms that they would see right through me that I really am a dog, that I was a complete failure, really, that, you know, my kind, from my side of the tracks doesn't belong to be interacting and succeeding. Or what are you doing to cheat to get there?

11:00These are the real thoughts that are going through my mind. I mean, it's a sick mind, but it's a mind that was groomed in that manner. Yeah, it's like you're walking on a thread, right? Like part of you can see all this external success, but then another part of you has this inkling inside that I'm broken. I'm somehow fundamentally flawed. I don't belong here. And it's like you're riding like a knife's edge. And any moment that you have to control everything, any moment that's going to fall apart, and And then you're going to be exposed for what you fear is the truth, right? I'm a horrible rotten.

11:38I am a dog. That's the truth, right? And I got to run from that. Anyway, I can't. You hit the nail on the head, man. You couldn't have said that any more finesse, man. It's true. It was always paranoia. Oh, I love, you know, with the alcohol, it exacerbates the anxiety. It used to quiet the anxiety, but at one point, that takes a left turn. So paranoia, anxiety was major. especially during that period, to the point that you almost want to isolate. You're already isolating from your friends and family. Now you're trying to isolate at meetings and so forth. So, you know, rather than drinking in front of others and being for the fear of being exposed of where you come from.

12:20So, I mean, I'm ashamed to say that I actually used to lie about my background. I used to say that, oh yeah, I had this great background. I grew up in a great family. I mean, just because Because that's what I believed. I've made this whole facade, this whole fake story about my life that wasn't even true because it was easier to do. And, you know, I wish it wasn't that case. I really do. But I wear it like a badge of honor today. That's for sure. Not ashamed at all. Yeah. Once you can kind of get to the other side, you can see it for what it is. I mean, it's about survival, right? It's about survival.

13:01It's about a kid trying to survive. And as I was talking earlier to you, as I was looking through your book, you know, there were pieces of, and I was telling you, I mean, I think your writing is really, really good, but you're hearing the stories of the trauma. I'm just imagining that kid, right? I mean, it's like, yeah, you got to survive. You got to figure it out. There's no other option. I mean. Yeah. And that was, and I'm glad you said that. You truly captured the essence of the book because I wanted to write it not like a memoir in a sense, because like this, what happened to me here? Then what happened to me here?

13:36I wanted to write it like a novel, kind of bringing everyone's senses into it. The reader meaning like you want to feel it, taste it, hear it, see it, touch it and really put you in that room. And I hope I've accomplished that, making it very cinematic. that was the end game for me because this problem is going on in every neighborhood across America and the world. Your neighbor could be going through this. You know, your teacher can be that teaches your child could be going through this. It's everywhere. And the fact that we have to devote, we're in it, this is domestic violence, abuse, awareness month.

14:19The fact that we have to To dedicate a month to this is absolutely ridiculous. That we have to tell people that it's not okay to put your hands on a loved one. It's just mind-boggling to me. Yeah, I mean, that's, yeah, I totally agree with you. But it goes to the title of your book, right? Silence was my first language, right? When you're in that abusive situation, sometimes surviving in that is that silence. It's how do you keep yourself safe in that moment? And it's so wrong and unfair and unjust, but it also makes sense when you think about, for you, it doesn't get talked about enough, right?

14:59No, absolutely. When I was writing, it's funny or not funny. It was just interesting to me. The one word, I didn't have a name for the book until I read it back over and over. The one word that kept coming up was the word silence. And that kind of freaked me out. and I was like, was that my language? And I really had to sit with that for a while. And that's why I named it silence was my first language because it was, it was the way I protected myself and my siblings through the silence and trying to operate strategically around the drama that was going on in that house. I mean, I feel like I became a father at 10 years old, for example, you know, because no one was going to care for those kids or feed them or, you know, those kinds of things.

15:49Yeah. So you had these life crises, the tragedy of your brother, the loss of the only thing that held your identity together. And so this started to crack. It started to fall apart. You couldn't do it. The silence didn't work anymore, right? It was falling apart. Can you talk a little bit about that piece and how that started to crack? Yeah, you know, as I started to crack in 2010, it just, it was a nosedive from there. You know, the next, I got sober in 2017, the best thing that ever happened to me. Up until that point, between 2010 and 2017, it became really hard in terms of, the facade was up, of course, but I was killing my family, meaning the hurt that I was bringing on to them because they were worried about me.

16:41My lioness, as I love to call her, she's the world to me. My wife of now 32 years this week. She grew up from very different circumstances. You know, it was roses everywhere, communication, beautiful family. And now she's married to this. And, you know, it was painful for her to watch her husband just completely unravel, especially during that period. And, but. Tell me a little bit about this unraveling and how did that start to show up? Like, so people can start to see it, like, because you can't hold the identity together anymore and you're falling in on yourself. And the unraveling is the isolation from your family, not wanting to come home, not knowing what you did the night before.

17:28I was a notorious drunk driver. Thank God I never killed someone or had a DUI or killed myself. Very shameful of me to do that. Very selfish. It's a selfish disease. Black Adam would wake up in different states. I even woke up in a different country once. A normal person would be like, okay, let me get on the plane immediately and figure this thing out. No, I doubled down and drank into turmoil for the next four days while the family worried. It just becoming irresponsible with bills, even though we had the cash. I was just controlling. Now I wanted to control everything because I didn't want anyone to see, meaning my wife and kids, what was really going on behind the closed doors.

18:09I would manipulate everything, demean her in a sense that gaslight her because I didn't want her to find out what was really happening with me. Just the hiding of bottle. I wasn't allowed to drink at the house anymore. I mean, for two years after I got sober, we would still find bottles in the house, for example. Rehabs that I failed. not remembering things, just the loss of time and space, starting to crap up at work at times. But it's funny when you're doing so well that they overlook that. So it's almost like the baseball team that has turmoil internally, but they keep winning. So we ignore what the real problem is.

18:52That was work for me. I mean, listen, I shit the bed of quite a few times at work where I should have been reprimanded very severely. And because I was an outstanding performer, just pat you on the back. Let's not do that again, kind of thing. Yeah. So when did you have to face yourself? When did that transition happen? That was a terrible day, you know. That was seven months after what anyone would consider rock bottom. That was waking up in another country. My wife basically was done.

19:21Rich Dunning: Yeah. I basically had one foot out the door because she was throwing my ass out. and I was trying to go on little stretches here, three days sober. And by then I was killing a bottle of bourbon a day. And that's hardcore guys, you know, especially with the data that's out there today where they say one ounce of alcohol is not good. I'm here killing a 750, you know, bottle of bourbon. And I somehow convinced her to go on a staycation on the coast for a few days and the family, you know, let's just try. Again, she has set some great boundaries at this point. There's no room for BS with her. And I love that about her.

20:03So we get there. We're having a nice time. I play golf. I see the clubhouse in the distance. And it's just like, welcome me. Come in, come in, come in. It was about midday. Well, I went in and it's now four hours later. And I'm a train wreck once again. They're blowing up my phone. It's like, where is he? Where am I? I get back. They're all poolside. She can tell when I had one drink. Nonetheless, whatever many drinks I had that day. And my youngest at the time was 10. He's the one that comes over. He's like, dad, let's play ping pong. And I'm like, okay. And I'm making just a complete fool of myself falling to the point that she had to grab me.

20:39She grabbed the kids right up to the room. I was sequestered, then went out to dinner. I doubled down, went back downstairs to the bar and kept drinking until security had to bring me up because I was being obnoxious. I pass out. And at this point, I felt like I was on the nonstop, never ending hamster wheel to begin with.

20:59Rich Dunning: It was always like wash, rinse, repeat, wash, rinse, repeat. That was my story. I wake up the next morning. My brain is literally falling out of my head. It's like five o 'clock in the morning and I'm looking around in the suite and just everyone's angelic. And I'm like, I don't deserve this family. We're on the fifth floor. I've hurt them so much and they don't deserve this. and frankly, I'm done. I can't put them through this anymore. Go outside to the balcony. I say a quick F you to my Lord and Savior who is a big part of my life today. I start climbing over. I've recited with, I'm done, I'm jumping.

21:38And as I'm about to let go, my youngest yells out an inquisitive dad and I just felt something just leave my body, man. And it was like someone took the chains off. And I really do believe it was God. I climbed back over and I'm like startled and nervous. And I walk inside and everyone's kind of startling and moving around and waking up. Brother, I just fell to my knees and just started bawling and saying, help me. I can't do this anymore. I'm finished. Please help me. And that was my day one, man. Wow. You just surrendered in that moment. I surrendered. Just let it all go. The most selfish thing I could have ever done.

22:23But it's such a selfish disease. The thought that, I think back today, the thought that we get one shot at this precious life to be somewhat productive, to pay it forward. And it was almost as easy as just letting go. Yeah. With no second chance to fix it, by the way. Yeah. But that shame and that self-loathing is so intense, right? The hopelessness is so intense that in that moment of desperation, it feels like a choice that makes sense, but it doesn't. It's like you just don't know. And you're so lucky, blessed, whatever you want to say, that you had that moment and you could come back. I mean, that's profound.

23:09I just want anybody out there listening, hearing that, right? That you got to let go. And look, man, there's help out there, no matter how desperate you feel. You know, it's like when you tell your story, I'm just thinking of other people listening. And if they're there, like giving them the hope that there's something on the other side. There is, there is. And you're showing that. So my question is... I was going to say that, you know, it just takes the courage just to ask for the help. Because this is, you know, ending your life is not the answer. There is hope. If I can do it, here I sit nine and a half years, almost sober, and it's been the most incredible nine plus years of my life.

23:55I'm living and I'm thriving. And it's no greater gift than to be able to tell my story and pay it forward. And that's the end game. Yeah, totally. I want to know also about that spot where you started to have a voice that silence, you know, was your first language, right? Speaking was the next language. So I want to know about that piece, like, because so many people out there, that's the struggle, right? Like getting from that space to this space. And there's something that happens there. and I wonder if you can I know my definitive moment and it took I hope it doesn't take as long for the next person that wants to get sober but for me it happened during COVID I was probably three years into my sobriety and looking at this product that started while I was drinking and ended you know in my sober journey essentially because it does take you through the sober journey silence was my first language which takes you to the sober journey and accountability and responsibility for what your actions are today, right?

25:10Your past doesn't have to define you, but you are accountable for your adult being. And how do we fix that? I was always a good writer, but I never thought I would put this out. I was going online and reading about people hurting and surprised by how much addiction there is and how much lost hope there is. and that's when kind of my light bulb went off because I was ashamed up until that point. Even in sobriety, I was ashamed. I'm reading this back. I was like, oh my gosh, no child should ever have to go. I've seen more in 17 years than anyone, most people have seen in a lifetime in the violence that ensued in that house, the drug abuse, et cetera, the homelessness.

25:53I said, this book can help someone not have to go through or continue to go through what I went through and not wait till they're 47 years old at the time to finally have a voice. I'm not going to be ashamed anymore. And that's when I decided that I would put this book or this manuscript essentially and turn it over to a published book. And here we sent another four or five years to get the completed project out there. You brought it to the light. And, you know, for the person that's struggling, I'll say this. If you do cross over and submit your addiction, there's no greater feeling than not being ashamed anymore.

26:37I feel like I can be naked in front of the world and say, this is me. There is no more mask of who I am. This is me. Take it or leave it. I am not ashamed. And I'm going to thrive as a human being. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking about what I read in your book of your childhood that was filled with pain, hurt, anger, hatred, right? And when you transition, you move into that space of compassion. You move into the space of love, of grace, and that becomes the center of your life instead of the silent anger, like you said. Yeah, at the end of the day, when I look back at all of this, this journey, and I feel like how God reentered my life, I really do think that this was planned for me, that this was my calling to help those who are young and going through it, who are kids or teens that are going through it.

27:43if I can change their lives and help them acknowledge that they may have an addiction, that it's not okay for someone to touch you or hurt you, that you can have a voice right now. All you have to do is pick up the phone or ask someone that you may think you can trust for help. That one step, if I can get that message across, then I have succeeded in everything I've wanted to accomplish. Wow. That's, you know, how has this impacted all of your relationships now? Yeah. You know, with your kids and everything like that, as you've gotten into recovery, you know, for anyone who's a bride, you don't earn it overnight.

28:27Right. And you're still not trusted for, you know, it took me a couple, maybe two, three years for the, you know, the sun to start shining, I would like to say. That road of redemption is very, very real. You got to put in the work. The steps are powerful. But if you work them, the promise at the end really does come true. I'm still on a redemption tour. I make amends. I made amends a couple of months ago to a friend who I love so dearly and hurt so much when I was still drinking over those last few years. He was one of the guys that still felt afraid to call. And he saw all my media coverage on the book somewhere and he commented on it.

29:13And he's proud of you. And that was just like, okay, this is a great thing. I'm going to go ahead and text him or whatever. It's like, can I call you? And that just opened the door. So the redemption tour never ends. I think what's important is that your actions are just like when you were drinking, your actions go so much further than your words. It's my last drink. I'm not drinking anymore. How many times did you hear that? I think that everything you do going forward on your sobriety tour has to be calculated, has to be self-aware. You've hurt so many people that you have to earn that trust back.

29:52My beautiful wife, for example, I mean, there's no way that she should be here. There's no way. I can't believe it because of all the pain that I put her through. And I'm so grateful for that. And I make sure she knows that every day. I don't take any of that for granted, you know, and those are the things that I'm really thankful for. But I think that sobriety and redemption and amends will always be there because we're going to make mistakes as human beings, even in our sobriety, right? But it's being self-aware enough to nip that in the bud right away rather than let it carry and then building something internally that's going to eat up at you.

30:32One thing that I'm not anymore is an isolationist and one who doesn't communicate. Some people may say I overly communicate these days. But there was substance and gratitude. That's for sure. And I make sure that every family member here, my kids, my wife, you know, my kids when they're home, they're young adults now, that they know. And you asked about my kids. I think that relationship, relationships are a hell of a lot stronger today than it was then. They also see a redemption story of resilience and they know they carry the gene, Dwayne. So I'm always very honest. Look, I can't tell you what to do, man.

31:08I got two boys and a girl. My youngest is 20. The other two have finished college and they're in the workplace. But I'm very honest with them. I'm like, you guys are going to have to find your path as to whether you want to drink, how much you want to drink. You carry the gene. Play that forward and look at me. And my youngest, I know. I mean, listen, I'm not stupid. Every kid drinks in college, right? And I tell them the same thing. I'm like, dude, you're an athlete. You're a frat in college. You're going to get into it. but play it forward as to how you're going to treat the way you drink, how you drink responsibly.

31:42You have that added, you know, sauce in there. I like to say that could mess you up like that. Exactly. And I always say, as someone who mentored me or sponsored me, it's like, listen, you got so many, three places, never ending drinking will take you and that's to your grave, which I almost met. You're going to get really, really sick. esophageal varices, liver disease, ascites, whatever it may be, Alzheimer's, dementia, all of that, or you're going to wind up incarcerated because you did something really stupid or really bad. That's what it looks like. Plug in addiction here and that's where it's going to take you.

32:24Whether it's drugs, alcohol, gambling, porn, it's not going to take you to the places that you need to be at. That's for sure. Yeah. And then I would say this, Rich, too, what I make up to is that now with all of your recovery, what I see in my work is you're the approachable father that they can come to you and talk to you about any of the hurts that, you know, you don't know what you did or didn't do right, but they can come and talk to you about it and you're willing to listen and i think like that's such a gift for our families to become people that they can approach and talk to without shame fear right and they can do that it's very real too it's real talk it's not bs i love that i don't know that i could have conversations like that today i when i was drinking you can tell where when there's healing involved especially with the family and listen And drinking is not a joke or alcohol.

33:22But we, you know, the family pokes fun at it sometimes. But I can tell that they're healed. And they heal from all the garbage that I put them through in terms of the pain that they can poke fun at dad about, you know, what he may have done on such date. Or it means a lot. It's the difference. And we can't do that until we walk through it and walk through all the shame and get to the other side and have our own self-compassion. So, Rich, it has been awesome to have you on The Addict of Mind and to talk to you. And I think your book is really amazing. And what a gift to the world. I'm glad that you found a way to bring your experience to others and offer that hope that there's another side, even through all of the hardship, the tragedy, the loss, the grief, the shame, all of that, that there's another way.

34:20So I love that. All right. But before we go, I always like to ask every guest one question. Maybe someone's out there. Maybe they're stuck in that space. Maybe they're on that knife's edge we were talking about earlier. and you could tell them one thing, what would you want them to know? Your past doesn't have to define you, brother. You know, what you do right now can alter your life for the rest of your life. You know, you can take a responsibility and accountability for today and know that your life is precious. Your life is meaningful. That people love you. I don't even know you and I love you.

34:57And I mean that with the utmost sincerity. It just takes that first step. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on. Where can people find you? Where can they get your book? Oh, yeah. So silence was my first language is completely out in the ether. I can't believe it. Everywhere books are sold in audiobooks. So if you want the New York accent, you can go get the audiobook on Audible and wherever else they sell it. You can go to my website, richstunningbooks.com. And something really special is happening right now. And this is in perpetuity. If you buy a book, you're also going to make a great donation.

35:33For every book I sell in perpetuity,$1 goes to the First Language Foundation addressing all of the things we just talked about. Addiction, homelessness, poverty, trauma, the needs of kids and young adults. And 100 % of everything we're raising is going directly to that cause. No one takes a salary at the foundation, which I love. So you're going to get a two for one. You get to donate and you're going to get a fabulous book. Oh, that's awesome, Rich. I will put all the links to that in the show notes at theaddictedmind.com. So you can check them out there as well. Rich, thank you for coming on.

36:12Thank you. Thank you for the platform and continue to do what you're doing, man. You are a godsend.

36:22Rich Dunning: Thank you so much to Rich Dunning for coming on the show and sharing his story. What really stays with me from this conversation is how something that really once protected Rich eventually became something he had to learn to let go of. Silence helped him survive as a child, but as an adult, it kept him from asking for help and connecting with the people he loved. And I think that's something important in the way Rich talks about recovery because getting sober was part of it, but so was taking responsibility and making amends and showing up differently for his wife and his children and the people around him.

37:03Rich Dunning: And rebuilding trust doesn't happen overnight. It happens through those conscious choices we make again and again. And if there's one thing I hope you take from Rich's story, it's that things we've lived through don't have to determine who we become. Change is possible, even when we've spent years believing otherwise. Rich is the author of Silence Was My First Language. I've included information about the book in the show notes. It's a really great book and really well written. And if this episode meant something to you, a rating and review on Apple Podcasts really does help other people find these conversations.

37:43Rich Dunning: And if you want one episode and one practical tool in your inbox each week, you can join the newsletter at theaddictivemind.com. So check that out. Maybe you need more than a podcast. Maybe you're struggling with addiction, trauma, or the impact it's had on your relationship. Novus Mindful Life, the group practice I founded, offers free 15-minute consultations. who are in person in Southern California with telehealth in California, Virginia, Florida, Idaho, Texas. That's novismindfullife.com. And if you've broken your partner's trust and you're ready to take responsibility and begin repairing it, Shame to Resilience is my program for people ready to do that work.

38:21Rich Dunning: That's shametoresilience.com. And remember, if you're in crisis, please call or text 988. It's free, confidential, and available 24-7. All right, everybody. Take care of yourselves. No, you are not alone in this. And I'll talk to you on the next episode.