Anxiety Becomes Euphoria at Brighton

31:17And this was a game with Jokeres and Martinelli in particular. where I think both of them had poor games and they are not players who were able to get on the ball and give us control. And we'll talk about the subs and how that helped change that. But so how much do you think that's impacting our ability to create that field tilt, that control, is that our forwards, in particular, Jokras and Martinelli in this game, are not high-touch, possession-oriented forwards and we're sort of missing that extra layer of control there? Yeah, I think that's definitely a fact. and we will talk about the subs but oh yeah contrast is we bring on two players who are much better at holding on to the ball now i think trossard gets a bit of a pass because we we kind of assume he's always a control but he gave the ball away a lot still um so like maybe he made us a little better but i'm not entirely convinced he made us feel better and maybe the team felt a bit more comfortable we could hold on to the ball.

32:17But in reality, I think it wasn't that much different. So had you had a winger and a striker that could drop in there, look, what do you want? You want Havertz. Had we had Havertz from the start of this and him been fairly fresh, we would have relieved all sorts of pressure, would have joined up more passages of play. but our team's jaded the striker is probably pretty jaded at this stage he gets played all the time he's lower touch and so the ball keeps bouncing back into through them back to us we get it out the back we try and play it out you know Saka loses the ball because he's a little tired it's not just Martinelli, Yachoresh but that extra burden of the ball you know we're playing uphill for much of this game.

33:08But I'm not actually sure that we disagreed on too much, Elliot. When I heard... I agree with that. I think we said the same thing. We tried to play. I'm watching the... I got a little distracted here. I think it's more your comment that they didn't really do much to hurt us. I think there was some last-ditch defending that is... They had a shot block by their own guy. Gabby headed it off the line. Zubimendi tried to give it away to them in a cheap area. Gabby Magalius had to make an insane diving intervention. Piero and Cappi had to charge down a guy who was driving into our box unmarked. Wow, you had a much more exciting game than the one I watched.

33:51But you don't remember those moments? Those were all big moments. Like, what are we talking about here? Have you met football? Have you met football? Stuff happens at some stage. Well, yeah, but more of it happened at our defensive end in that first half than their defensive end. That's the way it's supposed to work. But we defended it. They're at home.

34:05Elliot:But we defended it. Yeah, we defended it. And that's the key. We defended it. And I think, and those things sticking on mine, because they're quite nervy, right? But we defended it. They deserve credit. Wait, wait, wait. I'm giving us credit for doing those things. I'm just saying I can't connect to the idea that we were never under threat in that first half. I never said that. Okay. All right. Well, let's debate who said what. Or we could talk about what happened in the game. So speaking about what happened. We struggled. We absolutely struggled. and if you can't string passes together, it's coming back at you and there will be situations.

34:38And there were a couple of moments. By the way, if they'd scored, we probably would have scored again. So maybe four or five times. No one can know because none of that happened. But what we do know, Clive, is that Martinelli and Jokers weren't getting involved. And then the other thing that I think is interesting, Piero and Capier had a brilliant game. I'm really growing to appreciate this player, but I feel like our fullbacks are not inverting as much into midfield as they did. um Calafiore when he played even when he came on in this game really noticeable how much he was in the center midfield and our fullbacks I think are staying wider and then you have Martinelli who doesn't come into midfield and so maybe it's just a numbers game that we don't have as many players in midfield Declan Rice was pulling out to the wide areas so do you think there was a tactical plan to try to overload wide areas and build through there because it didn't feel like we had of presence in the center of the pitch.

35:32That was not an area we were really able to influence the game.

35:35Elliot:It's the way we're doing it at the moment. We've got our fullbacks on the outside. I think Califuri just takes a position a lot off of Trossard. So Trossard goes wide. He comes inside. I don't think he inverted in this game, to be honest earlier. And I don't judge the success of a fullback whether they invert or not. That's the style of play we've played in the past. And sometimes we do it and sometimes we don't. I'm not saying it's success. I'm just saying like it's noticeable we have fewer bodies in central areas right now than maybe we have in the past. And we are going, I think we're going direct a lot more.

36:07Elliot:And in this game, I think Tom said something on his press conference that this is the most long balls that we've played. You know, in Mikel's time, I think we played 60 long balls in this game. And so we were missing the midfield out. We're going to a front four and we're trying to get it from there. And that's the way we chose to play. Before the game, there were people saying that Brighton are quite pressy. they're quite aggressive so when martin ellie's picked i'm thinking yes mate if mikhail's picked the right guy i want to see this guy let's see and come on to us so we can get him behind him jokeres is fresh off her you know a player of the month type performance at spurs and basically we're looking at a situation where we've got two sprinters there ez and saka there i'm quite comfortable with it martin ellie has has one of those days where he doesn't touch the ball so we haven't got a player there and we know Jokeres can have one of those days where they don't touch the ball and when Trostar and Havertz came on they had more touches than them in half an hour compared to the hour and so we immediately changed and we became 11 players again that can get around the ball and that's why the game felt a little bit better towards the end we had more control on the ball whereas we had previously we had control maybe off the ball which always feels a bit more nervy because they have moments, right?

37:25Elliot:those moments goes against you then we're going to say why didn't we attack more why don't we control the game more and so yeah that's how i that's how i feel about it so every game has its own context and story this has a 22 year context where we are literally nine or eight games away from doing something so the context around this game has changed the nervousness has changed how people feel when you go up in nine minutes so we go up in nine minutes so it's a different game then yeah it's a game that's paul's point it's got a scoreboard it's scoreboard driven it's a different game so do i did my foreback want to invert and leave a wing over his shoulder like mitoma or do i think you know i'll stand on mitoma because if i stand there he can't he can't no space room to run into and we're going to hold on to his lead and and those 4 000 fans behind the goal are going and be really happy so if we hadn't scored i guarantee you timbre will be flying down that wing with saka and they'll be trying to get a goal you know and so it's just it's just the game state maybe we scored too early and because we scored early we not say saw the game out but we were comfortable in our holes we were comfortable in our areas we're comfortable in our spaces but for me we didn't have enough ball players and ball retention once we'd scored you then your body and your mind and your eyes watching the game, you scored a goal now, I don't like this, I need to hide the ball from them I need to have 15 passes in a row I don't want to be direct anymore because we've got the goal, so suddenly the team that you have is not the right team but again, the manager nailed it he nailed it, he didn't make his 72 minute sub, he makes his one hour sub, and the last third of the game we controlled it, so it's just football, mate.

39:15Elliot:I know I say it all the time, but it's just football. 1-0 drove a lot of that scenarios. Yeah, and I mean, some of it is just about personnel and the players that are the right players for the right moment, because as we're about to get to with the substitutions, it really did change the game and changed my sense of the game. Even though I don't think we were suddenly a dynamic flowing attacking force and stringing passes together left and right, there was a much greater level of control in my mind. And I think, and Tim said this in his voice note last night, it felt more comfortable in the last five or 10 minutes than it did in the 30th or 40th minute.

39:51So one of the talking points too, when it comes to sort of the anxiety I felt watching the game a little bit, Paul, was Mascara picking up that early yellow. And I just want to get your thoughts on the Mascara performance. You know, I think we forget how young this player is, how inexperienced he is at this level of football, and to come in and start a big away game in an atmosphere that was really vibrant and with the pressure that he has on him. And then to get that early yellow card, I think that's a big tightrope to walk. He just about walked it, I think, is the way I would put it. But what did you make of his contribution and the extent to which the early yellow created a lot of nerves just around watching what was happening in the game?

40:31Definitely a factor. And like, he came in pretty hot into the team earlier in the season and every performance, maybe we were a little generous with our eye in that we were normally expecting to see such a downgrade from whoever steps in for Saliba or Gabriel that he was so close to what Saliba was able to do. We're like, oh, well, now we don't need to worry about it at all. But as you said, he's a young guy. And now we're asking him to come in at the ninth last game of the season when championships are on the line, it's a whole other level of challenge for him to slot back in. Plus, our idea of what we want to see, the amount of stress we want to see from that area of the pitch, we're no longer as tolerant for little missteps.

41:23The thing that stuck out to me early on was they had a chance where the gap between our two center backs was just too big. I'm like, that doesn't look right. You have two center backs with that amount of space and they're the width of the goal apart. And you're like, it doesn't look right. And that's all understanding and references and stuff. And he's got a lot on his plate coming in. He's fresh, but he doesn't have a feel for it. And suddenly we're in this kind of, it's very old school kind of game. It was very physical, attritional, et cetera. Herzler had said they planned to be dirty, which apparently didn't get any coverage in the media, which is strange all the things he did say got a lot of coverage before the game he also did say he planned to be dirty and the amount of tricks they played delaying of time you know he says of course we delay time too but not like them because we're not them we're us when we do it it's beautiful it's beautiful and tactical and intelligent remember the free kick they take where they they tried to hit off our player to show we were blocking it and they hit it off their player in midfield and they all they all claim for the like the retake taking the free kick because we were standing so close but they hit it off their player and then they do the same thing against us they stand in front of the ball for us so it was a broken up messy game it was a little unpleasant they had something to do with that too yeah and they planned it to be agricultural but yeah mascara look it's a credit to him that um i think arteta gets it perfectly right he trusts him to see out much of the game and then when it's getting to the stage of the game where we could be kind of roasted on a spit continually going into it now turned out better than that but he got him off at the right time where it wasn't some some decision out of nowhere that that crocks this game and we've done phenomenally this season for not having stupid moments or in the moments where it's touch and go for us to kind of have the poise and the aura about us that we're not that crazy team where such and such was a penalty or such such was the yellow card referees are kind of being fairly reasonable to the decisions they make against us and i think that's in part because of how this team carries itself no i agree i think that by and large referees this season have avoided making big calls they don't have to make um and being being the story uh and for Kavanaugh to avoid that is particularly special uh because he loves to be the story as we know he had sent off a play it was ringing in my ears when they said on the broadcast he had sent off a player in each of his last two games so I was I was waiting for the hat trick and we just don't feel like a team that should be having a player sent off so when the incident happens we're not crazy we're not flying into things there is a sense of control about the game so when those 50 50s happen the referee doesn't feel like it's due yeah and so ultimately i mean it's a half where bakayo saka gets us a goal a bit of fortune with it taking the deflection you know through the keeper and mostly then it's it's a fractious affair where there's a lot of ball going long, a lot of changes of possession, but we get to the half and the numbers are pretty stark.

44:58We had four touches in their box, one shot, Saka's worth.01 XG, 76 % passing and 42 % possession. So whether you regarded it as riding our luck or just playing a more defensive approach and keeping it out, we needed to get more control of the game. And the remit in the second half was going to be don't let it be, I think, quite as helter-skelter as it was in the first half. And so we're going to want to talk about how we got there because the subs were a big part of that. I think that gives us a really good turning point for what is always, I think, the highlight of the pod and the thing that you come here for most, not Paul and I disagreeing about whether we agreed or disagreed.

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48:45Elliot:Indeed. Nailed it. Clive. Okay, so not the perfect first half. Whether you are more aligned with how I saw it or more aligned with how Clive and Paul saw it, somewhere in that range is still not picture book, not exactly how he drew it up. And Mikel had a big decision to make about when to bring the subs on and who to bring on. And boy, oh boy, did he get it right, Clive. These subs, and in particular Kai Havertz, made a huge difference. He brings Kai on. He brings Leo on. He ultimately brings Cal Fury on for mascara just four months later. Four months later? Four minutes later. Although it felt like months as I experienced it.

49:34But the subs made a massive difference. And from that point, even though it's not that we battered them, I think a lot of the anxiety ebbed from the game, a lot of the sense that we couldn't get on the ball or couldn't repel them ebbed from the game. So what did you think of the subs and their impact and why did they make the impact they made?

49:55Elliot:Yeah, sort of touching it a little bit earlier. I think one thing I think we haven't quite discussed about the first half is how we looked. As a team, we looked incredibly fatigued. and that underpins a lot of our creative play and underpins a lot of our proactive movement as well as the scoreboard right so i watched that game honestly with an overriding emotion of we look tired players that literally this is a year of the horse right and the horse in our team it could even run that tells you that tells you that where we were when you see players like that that are struggling you're thinking okay wow so then what do you do you revert to when you can't run you revert to position so you make the pitch smaller you have your distances tighter well does that stop that stops progressive movement going forward because you have you're not splitting you're not springing out of your spot you're not retaining the ball well we didn't retain the ball that's when we really need someone to retain the ball and your quest was not as successful as he was against spurs um so we didn't retain the ball when we went long when we went high and so we're in a situation now okay we will defer we will defer to position but then the decision to bring on Havertz and Trossard was perfectly timed because we take off two low touch players for two higher touch players that want to have a little bit more ball security and from the moment they came on they start to move their body in a different way to receive it thinking about the next pass and that sort of cohesion returns straight away and then you start to see movements so the pass count goes up.

51:31Elliot:So rather than lose the ball in three or four, we're losing it in nine or ten. They're having to work a bit harder and suddenly they drop away. So it's getting to your passing volume is what changes it. And it may not even be that high passing volume. It may just be you're playing the ball to a moving center forward, there's favorite to receive it, he chops against the grain, gets a foul. Thank you very much. Everyone walks up, we take 15 minutes to take that free kick, then we pass it back and then go from there. But it gives us a level of control. They are not dictating the momentum. They're not dictating what's happening.

52:08Elliot:We are dictating what's happening. And they are becoming more and more and more frustrated. And so at the start of the game, Brighton push onto us. We've got sprinting players. We get our goal. That team no longer suits. We wait to an hour. We bring on a team of ballers that can look after the football. And suddenly the front four that ended that game Elliot, we spoke this week about our best team for Champions League final, which will change every week by the way, that front four that ended that game could be a Champions League final front four quite easily and suddenly you think, oh that makes a lot of sense but we haven't seen it because Trossard's had a bit of a flat period recently Kai's played hardly any games people are shouting, well Martin Odegaard I think he had 13 league starts this season.

53:00Elliot:And we're up to, what, 30 games? And so we have visions of players playing, but we haven't really seen them play together. But what I felt when these two coming on was a level of comfort that I didn't really have. And my comfort index just went up and up and up and up. And we look more like ourselves. I have to say Kai Havertz is a such an interesting player I've always been a fan of him but the more he doesn't play the bigger fan I'll be coming and when he does play it's like he's worked the game out you know and um it's you often when you're a football player particularly when you're one of the old as I was you work the game out when you can't run anymore you know I wish I knew this when I could actually play and I could run and um I think with Kai he's worked the game out, but he can still move.

53:53Elliot:And the only thing that stopped him from moving more often is injury. And I think he's, this team is defensively, and you've also often said we are defined by our defense, which we probably are. But the Arteta attacker in his era is Kai Havertz. I think he's a defining player. I think that's the forward that we all want to see on the pitch. Whether it's nine or ten, I don't really mind. yeah the ball the ball sticks to him and that makes a huge difference um he also just moves intelligently I actually thought too the the pressing that we were able to do when he and Leo was on were on was so much better you know I really watched Jokras press and he's he's up for it he runs but I don't think it's always as intelligent in terms of angling that run you blocking the passing lane with the way he presses.

54:48I noticed a couple times he would run right at the ball and it was played around him. And then he'd chase that ball and then the guy he was pressing would run by him. Kai, I think, added quality to our pressing game. So it made it just that little bit harder for them to progress the ball. He's just a really thoughtful, intelligent player. And Paul, I think it's also interesting that Ezza stayed on 90 minutes. I think it's a big day for Ezza in a way because it was Mikel showing confidence in him in an off-the-ball game in a defensive effort trying to hold on to a 1-0 away. These are the situations where Mikel has had a bit of a quick hook for Ezza in the past.

55:27Now, I don't know what other options he had necessarily, so maybe it's desperation more than confidence, but it feels a little like trust. And I think he worked really hard off the ball and was as effective as he can be in that regard and showed that he can be trusted to do the work when the slick passing game is not. He had a couple of little nice moments where he played players in, could have led to goals, but it was his off-the-ball work that I think will earn him credit in the bank. So thoughts on Kai's sub-performance and maybe a bit on Eze staying on for 90 minutes to help us see it over the line?

55:58Yeah, look, he could have brought on Norgard, which I know is not his favorite sub, but it did happen in this game. So he could have gone for security a little earlier. Yep. But he'd brought on Leo and Havertz, and he kind of leaned in to have an Eze there. and if you remember the game we started getting corners and staying up the pitch now we were taking some very tired corners and set pieces in this declans delivery he's so bloody shagged even his deliveries from freak he went short quite a lot played to an it's like it was a low energy how do we manage our way through it but certainly we started getting up the pitch towards the end of of this game after we got the subs on he kept as a on as i worked hard you're not going to bring the intensity and the pressing you're not going to feel pressed by as a even if he chases you down it's almost like a warm massage so you're not really going to feel it he doesn't arrive with intensity kind of he's like okay i i've arrived you can pass now we both know how this plays out but he was getting around the pitch and closing the gaps and shadow cover and all that crap so he was doing the what was required to hold up the defensive end but i think his role to be on the pitch was why bring on havertz and trossard if you're not going to lean into that let's get the ball to them let's connect to them um and i think it shows up i think that last 20 or so minutes we play is if you look at our xg charts is reasonable we're taking it along to something happening every few minutes it's a free kick it's a corner look at their xg chart for the last 20 minutes it's a straight line and not in the good way they do literally nothing over the last 20 minutes when you when you look back and say i wonder why i felt so calm for the last 20 minutes compared to normal times let's not overstate things okay um well you were watching look you go looking for drama you're watching the city game at the same time no i only watched it after full time of our game to be fair but that was all the drama i needed thank you very much what you want to do clive and i knew better we don't go looking for that shit in the middle of a game i did have

58:11Elliot:a little sneaky look to be honest i had to be honest so like just look at the xg line for them for the last 20 minutes literally flatlined not a bump not a wrinkle not a oh they had a they don't have a 0.001 on their xg chart we just snuffed them out i think as a and havert's getting us down the other end i don't want to put too much uh gloss on as in his key but like it made sense as a as a substitution not to make because you're like comfortable that he's doing the the minimum him required from a shape standpoint that he he knows where to be he's you got him up front he's pressing with Havertz so where he's not going to drop a clanger you got him in the Odegaard pressing spot have him run around fill the gaps and then when we get the ball and Arteta talked about it in the presser afterwards he was asked about it was Tom Canton who asked the question about going long so often was that his plan and Arteta basically he said absolutely no but the players make the decision on the pitch and they weren't feeling it.

59:21It wasn't what he wanted them to do. It's not what they were supposed to be doing. But guess what? At some stage, you come up with the answer that when I try and be overly clever here, we lose the ball in a dangerous spot. And so I'm going to play percentages. And then Kai comes on and you can lean into that. Yeah.

59:39Clive, Zubamendi came off for Norgard with about 10 minutes ago. I think it was 80th minute roughly. Zubimendi as I mentioned the most minutes of any outfield player it's it is the case I think that people have their eye on him a bit recently in terms of what he's giving us in build-up and you know maybe he's made he's made a few errors a few sloppy back passes that that stick out in the memory I think he's still a really important player in terms of what we're doing and has been hugely influential all season but there's no question in my mind that the season is taking a toll on him. It's more, you know, I'm sure more minutes than he's played in any season ever at this stage, you know, in a much more intense league.

1:00:20I wonder how you evaluate the double pivot to shattered players in my mind in Rice and Zubomendi and whether they or in particular Zubomendi needs to have more opportunities to get some rest. Obviously, this weekend will be a great opportunity, but he's someone where I think it is taking a toll. I think we're starting to see that.

1:00:42Elliot:yeah it's taken a toll on both of them and I think it's taken a toll on Timber at certain stages this season as well and we can see and what's the common denominator behind this Ben White's fitness has maybe mean we've overplayed Timber and when we have played White we overplayed White and got him injured again right so no Marino or Odegaard so we're limited in choices in midfield so there you go you took the words out of my mouth and so not only has he played the most meters he's covered the most meters of anybody in the Premier League in his first season with no winter break. So I don't see it as a negative.

1:01:16Elliot:I see it as a real positive. We are lucky that we have an FA Cup draw that hopefully we can sit him down. But every time I think, I can see he's dying, but he's still out there giving it some against Spurs. I thought he did well. Comes off the game, covered the most kilometers in that game. And so he's still producing it. And every time I think, rest him, rest him, rest him. Then the training pictures come out the next day and he's in the middle of them smiling. and I think mate have a rest you know have a rest and he has missed a few training sessions because the manager knows he's got to look after him because he plays internationally as well his first pick Rodri always has a little moment so he doesn't have to play in international games because Zubmendi plays all the time as well and on that point Elliot there's a moment coming up in the season the March international break where that is a time for rest you know what's going to be a time for Clive negotiations Negotiations.

1:02:11There's going to be a lot of nation, national team managers negotiating.

1:02:15Elliot:I thought about this on my walk today. I thought, I want to talk, I'll bring this up. That end of March, international break, could be the season. And we have to be big. We have to be big and say what we need to say about our players. Because these players are in four competitions. And so an international manager, if he wants these players for the summer tournament, in some sort of shape, has to be smart. so the most important conversations in this week is with Thomas Dushel for example with the Spain manager you know with the Germany manager he's probably keen to see Kai Havertz come back in you know and play that role because Volta Maad has gone a bit cold so he's thinking can I get Havertz for the World Cup Odegaard Norwegian captain we haven't seen much of him he's coming back to health this is important stuff you know the Brazilian players we lost Gabi for a period after Brazil friendly.

1:03:11Elliot:This is the season. So whatever dreams we have, this is the moment where we're smart, we can rest or negotiate. This is the only time we're going to get. So the international breaks, I've flipped on completely. You play two games in two weeks, whereas normally that's five or six. So when you go away, you actually get a rest. You get to see your family, you get to see people in your own country. It becomes a mental rest. I think it's critical, critical two weeks of season that we've managed that well, come out of the other side in shape. Because if we do, and we're still in a competition that we all hope we're going to be in, it's all on.

1:03:50Elliot:A few years ago, I know it's a little while ago, we lost Kieran Tierney. Remember in the international break towards the end of the season and destabilized us massively? Things like that can't happen again. Didn't we lose Gabby in international breaks? Consecutive seasons or something? Yeah, we have done. And so this is the moment of the season coming up. I think the other interesting thing is sometimes what clubs will do, right, is they will take a player out of the game before an international break saying he's injured in an effort to try to keep him out of the international break playing for his national team.

1:04:25Elliot:It needs to be added on conversation, doesn't it, to be honest, right? You do that in September or October, but this is the crunch time and we have a World Cup. well the game before the international break is a cup final so no no one's keeping their players out of a cup final to try to get cute with national teams it is a tricky one because if this was a non-international tournament summer national team managers might be a little more pragmatic about what's best for the player and their club but it's a world cup summer and there's no national team manager that's going to think about the club's best interest in a world cup summer so it is what it is to your point clive i think it is a really intelligent point it's still less football than they would be playing if there was no international break.

1:05:07But to Clive's point, it is a discussion and a negotiation. But the national managers, they need those players fit for the World Cup too. They want Zubimendi to finish the season strong for Arsenal to stay fit. They don't want them crocked. Now, we've seen behaviors that don't match up to that, but that's where the quality conversations, they understand the position Arsenal's in where we are in the league so the players don't have quite the same pressure that if I don't play I in the international break I may not get out they could go into the World Cup as Premier League champions if they play it right which gives them a status that they're not going to have otherwise that keeps them in the thinking of people so it is about really good communication Thomas Tuchel has been there.

1:05:58He knows what this is all about. We've just got to make sure he remembers the welfare of the players, not just during the international break, but during the end of the season coming into the World Cup. They should all, they won't be, but they should be mostly all on the same page if they have the right conversations. Yeah. It is the case that the national team managers do themselves no good if they break their own players either, right? So it is a balancing act. So to finish off on this game, by the way, it was interesting. There were some moments for us to make the game safe, actually. Kai was played in a few different times.

1:06:41Once, and it's funny, Declan Rice, right? Totally shattered. Can't run. Can't pass. Looks like he needs a vacation. And then what does he do? Finds a way to drive to Beliba, get the ball off him, get it into Kai and then Boliba somehow gets up and manages to recover that situation Kai was played in and shot near post there was a moment where Kai I think could have played someone else in but decided to go down and let the clock tick away there was the flashpoint where Saka went down uh injured quote unquote and then they attempted to pick him up off the ground which as I understand it is a war crime I've been told that was a war crime but uh I've seen no tribunal convened for it.

1:07:18So we'll just have to accept that it was forgiven. And yeah, and that was it. We saw it out. And I really think, I don't want to think this way, but there is a part of me that just wonders if Kai Havertz had been fit enough to play 90 minutes every three days this season, you know, where could we be? I mean, we're already in a fantastic position to be fair, but if he can see us through, if he can see us through with some minutes during the run-in, it's going to make a huge, huge difference. And that's no disrespect intended to Yokoz, who is our leading scorer, but I think there is just a big difference there.

1:07:52I think there is a really big difference there. So Clive, you know, as we start to wrap on this game and talk about where it leaves us and the state of the title race and how things are looking right now, I just think Mikel has used the squad so intelligently, the best he's able to. And what's crazy is in any other season, we'd be talking about an injury crisis. Odegaard not playing, Saliba not playing, Kai Havertz hasn't been fit enough to play much. Marino's season is essentially done. All of these players who we've been without and continue to be without, but he's using the squad intelligently.

1:08:23He's finding the players to bring on the right time, and I thought this was masterful management in this game, both in terms of his use of the subs and his comments to sort of not take the bait that was offered to him. A good day for Mikel, I think.

1:08:38Elliot:Yeah, well, he's an adult, and it hurts to show that he's less mature. adult shall we say um leave that in the past and and ignore it because you'll hopefully go into a different place if he keeps his focus like he has done and keeps being the captain of the ship and steering the right direction and the players keep following in which they seem to be massively um then thomas herch does just disappear and um and you haven't got to stay focused on it too long we should stop mentioning his name on that point i think the most important thing is we're coming to the crunch time and it is the crunch time and everyone thinks there's only one team that understands the course and so all we can do is break the course up into small pieces and attack it that way depending on how you feel about your performance and where you are.

1:09:24Elliot:Our key ability to manage we said this before to manage change in a game and to manage changes in our game I think is our number one trick. You know, managing change is what this team can do. When players come in and we all can sense these momentums now because we're lacking a little bit of structure at the moment because we're a little bit fatigued. Our forward player's not holding it. And so we all want a bit more of Odegaard's control or Havertz's control. You know, we're missing Mourinho because the game is telling us that we want to get more control over it. So the people that control it, you know, we want them back in.

1:10:00Elliot:But then when we have control, then we need some bit more ability to run in behind because that's what the game has now changed, running behind. we have the ability to put these players on and change whatever the game is telling us. And that was always the key. I think the strategy around squad depth has changed our lives. You mentioned a few players earlier that were injured. We didn't mention Ben White, mention him again. And just having this depth has changed our lives. And even within that, it's only been two or three times where we've had to not name senior pros in the squad. you know so so we've been injured most of the time and we've had to manage that I just think it's changed us completely having this depth and quality of depth we would be nowhere near anything without it given the issues that we've had and what we've done in the past and how we've reacted to them we can react to them in a much more concise way where we can me and you come in a conversation this weekend about which left back we should play in the European Cup final team and we're really not that bothered really are we you know we've got it wouldn't bother us in the slightest which one we're playing you know and so which is a huge credit to Piero and Capier by the way I mean he's just been sensational yeah well in this game he was like I don't know what he was on everyone else was knackered but he obviously found he prepared himself right for the game but again he hasn't played every minute this year like Zubriendi has he's coming to teams at a peak moment I thought Eze's in a good physical moment why?

1:11:32Elliot:because he didn't play that much over the Christmas period and Eze by the way way he's if I'm too sure watching him and watching his dual numbers watching what he's doing off the ball I'm thinking mate you're coming to the World Cup with me because I can trust you in different phases of the game not just pretty play on the ball but in all phases of the game because you're learning about an adult's game at a senior club going for the best trophies in the game and you're having to be responsible and they're the sort of players that get into England squads not fancy dads that do a bit every now and again on the ball that's not going to work you know for the senior for people like Tushel, who's a proper manager.

1:12:08Elliot:And so, yeah, it's where we are at the moment, mate. It's where we are. And I think it is. I'm trying, like everybody, Elliot, I'm trying not to stay calm on this one. Trying not to stay calm? I'm trying to stay calm. I'm really trying to stay calm. But secretly, in my mind, I'm making plans. I'm making social plans. Well, you saw what, I'm not going to say it out loud, but you saw what paul's headline on the instant reaction was i'm not gonna say it yeah well let's talk about it i mean it does seem like a pivotal night it may not be right it's no i think it is i think it is i think that's very fair it felt like the night that you would look back on now you know i'm not i'm not somebody who gets headlines and is out there publicly in the so it doesn't really matter whether i'm right wrong or whatever my feeling is but this i'll look at a night like this if i was you know if i'm uh ian right i'd maybe don't say it but i'm not ian right i'm me and uh like this look for him to be fair could have um we've been on the same stage together and people got confused um uh this felt like a night where there was a big shift now we could screw it up so it's possible but we put ourselves in a whole different psychological space when we when we look at this as a race to the finish line than when before this game started we were the one who had to play away from home at a tricky ground city had a relatively more comfortable and they screwed up their law their draw felt like a loss and our win felt like a big big psychological thing clive yeah oh no carry on man what i was going to say you triggered you're saying in my mind we got eight games to go five at home three away right so obviously got city away the five home games they're not easy i i was there for everton at home last season and it was i think it was a nil nil right so and i saw why people like jordan pickford like because he played really well and that's going to be a really tough game so i am not in open top boss mode yet it felt like a pivotal moment but the next game grows in our minds as it gets closer and by the time we're doing a preview pod for that Everton game, we'll all be petrified again.

1:14:32Elliot:We should be able to enjoy this moment where an unexpected extra two points came in our bin and we found a level of resilience and maybe show people we've got a strong mentality and we're all unified and together against the world that's screaming at us for ruining football. I think this is a really, really important night until the next game what really, really matters. And that's where we are. well okay so a couple of things because i think you hit on a few things that are really important there and i'll bounce it back to you in a moment paul first of all there is a point where you suddenly realize you can do something where you may have doubted it but you realize you can do it there's that line in rocky 4 for anyone who's ever seen that movie where he says to rocky you know he's fighting ivan drago he says he's worried you cut him you hurt him you see you see he's not a machine he's a man and like this is as clear a moment as it gets this is nottingham forest at the Etihad.

1:15:26City leading twice, unable to hold it, unable to get it over the line. It is such a clear message to the Arsenal players. They are not the machine they were. This is not the team that chased you down two years ago. You don't have to feel like they're right on your back like the Terminator waiting to chase you down. I think psychologically that matters. I also think something has changed in the fans. I was at the Wolves game at the Emirates. The fans were not only nervy, but maybe even a little bit aggravated. And I understand it's wolves at home and you expect better than that, but there was a lot of anxiety in the ground.

1:16:02I was also at the Chelsea game, also not the perfect performance, but there was much more of an effort to get behind the team and help see them over the line. And then you look at the away support at Brighton and the, the full throated support and the effort to get them over the line. And I think fan support is changing now from, Oh, boo, who we didn't get the right result at forest. Or we didn't, you know, didn't get the right result at Brentford too. Realizing we can do it and the players need us, that they're shagged out, that it's a long season. And I think there's that little bit of turning the corner now with this night.

1:16:35It'll help drive support, I think, in the ground when it's Everton in a couple of weeks. And I think it is a great psychological help for the players. And again, I think the fact that we play Mansfield at the weekend and then it's Leverkusen and we take a break from the league with this in our minds, I think psychologically there's a big boost here. And Paul, look, it's hard to evaluate psychology because you can get it so wrong, right? I mean, it's just one of those things. They have confidence until they don't have confidence. But I do think that the connection between the fans and the players and this night and what it does to the momentum is substantial, you know?

1:17:10Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's easy to evaluate psychology because nobody can prove you wrong. Well, maybe that's all I'll evaluate then. yeah i do want to point out to you you do realize rocky was a movie right no that really happened made up yeah really i know in america it's ronald reagan acting president of the time once told a story of his heroism that turned out to be part of a film plot he was in look rocky is so real that the city of philadelphia put a statue of him there that's true so that makes it real yeah um I think the fact that it was all set up for City, this relentless machine, to just keep grinding away.

1:17:54And even if we won tonight, they win tonight. And they go blow for blow. And we go first, then they go, then they go first. And the pressure's on us. And that all just went poof. now anything can happen in the race but it's clear to your point where rocky fights evan drago i never i have no idea what his name was um terrible movie by the way terrible movie but a lot of fun like suddenly they're just a team they're a good team yeah they're dangerous but there's nothing special going on here it ain't it ain't uh it it was wrote it was written the hand on the wall and they're complaining about refs they're moaning about calls now right they're not immune to it you know you'd always hear uh you know the the real winners don't complain about this stuff you know clive it's in their head they're now the ones who feel like it's going against them and that

1:18:50Elliot:we know how that can go it's not a good feeling you have to put pressure on you know um we get we get thrown in little poor man city because of what they've done the last half decade etc when i watched when i watched liverpool in that last few minutes against man city in that game and I'm watching Alisson jump out of his box to give a penalty away. I'm thinking, what are you doing? But that's pressure of the result. They wanted the result so badly and they did strange things. City got back into that game fortuitously and they walk out with the mentality stripes on their sleeve, right? So everyone thinks they're coming.

1:19:21Elliot:But they are human like everybody else. They've had to react to having an incomplete team. They've got their money and they bought a couple of players in January that have been really successful. But they've got holes in their team in the back end of their pitch. They've got aged defenders. They've got an aged midfielder who's very, very smart, Bernardo Silva, who's a cute player. They've got some really good attackers that can create moments, but they are fallible going backwards. And that's the truth. And they have been all season. They've been fallible going backwards. And all we have to do is play the football match in front of us and not play the psychological battle and listen to the external noise that's out there.

1:19:57Elliot:If you play the football match and we are fresh enough, and this is my only worry I have if we play with the level of fatigue we played with last night that's going to go against us at some point and games away at West Ham particularly fighting for their lives home to Everton they loom large for me I'll be honest here they loom large City will take care of itself trust me don't worry about that it'll take care of itself we're good enough or we're not but we'll be ready for that game but those little other games they concern me a little bit so this is why last night was important because we've got some wiggle room for a mistake And if we make a mistake, we've got time to react.

1:20:32Elliot:And that's what hasn't happened before. And the fortunate draws, which we've earned in the Champions League, fortunate FA Cup draws, which are just fortunate, sometimes you look and think, you know what, maybe this is our time if we just keep ticking it off one by one. And one of the reasons I raise the connection with the fans as something to keep an eye on is, per Urbino, City have four home games and five away. we play away just three more times than five home games if we can really get behind the team and seven of eight in london yeah yeah seven of eight in london yeah uh you know so it's like what you're talking about clive right it's just it is the case that if if the connection is right the home support can be a big part of helping get this team over the line um yeah i think that Everton game, mate, 5.30 kickoff earlier.

1:21:24Elliot:Oh, my goodness. It'll be frenzied in there. It'll be lively. And hopefully we can show a different face in that game. But I think having a break for a league, as you said earlier, is really important. But that game is my next live game, and I can't wait for it. Yeah, obviously Champions League comes back midweek. But quickly, Clave, I'll stay with you just for a second. It's Mansfield at the weekend. This is one of those classic cases of like, it's the perfect fixture for us because we can rest everybody unless we do that and then don't get the result and then it's like the nightmare scenario.

1:21:56To be fair, with everything we're fighting for, I'm not even sure how angry people would be. Very angry, let's be honest. But it's not going to happen. Don't worry. But I noticed Max Dowman was on the bench last night. Really exciting. Opportunity for him to feature potentially at the weekend. Because of the injuries, it is going to be tricky for Mikel to try to pick enough change to arrest all the players he wants to. But I got to believe it's as many changes as he's able to make. Do you agree with that?

1:22:23Elliot:Absolutely. Can we see a Marley Salmon too? Yeah, we'll make the changes. I would think about Marley Salmon as a right back for this game. If Ben White's not fit, that's gone quiet. That would make change by press conference on Friday. I don't know where Odegaard is. That's a perfect game to reintroduce some injury if he's able to play. He's getting close, but not quite comfortable yet. That would be really, really useful. Max has got to get some time in this game. Nani's going to play. I see Mark Lally playing, Jesus playing, Norgard playing. So we do need the extra midfielder in there. But we've got to prioritise rest of some key people.

1:23:02Elliot:Big Gabby's got to be rested. You know, he's too important. You know, Saliba, would you play him in this game? Only if you have to, and only if you're really, really sure. Again, the approach to injury is so much more mature than last year. Any sort of knock, we make a change. Again, it's long term. kids going to the World Cup, he's going to be playing for France, he's going to be hopefully playing with us to the end of May. We need to think about players in condition at the right time. So I'd make all of the changes we can possibly make. Miles comes in, Mosquera plays the game, and that allows people to really focus on the Champions League game.

1:23:37Elliot:If we do that well in the first leg, that opens up the second leg for more rotation, and the squad becomes really valuable again. You know, depending on how efficient we are, against my only worry about this is fatigue because fatigue really shows up in offensive freshness and good decisions and quality under pressure think clearly under pressure teacup like you always talk about yeah teacup that's when you notice when you're trying to create something and your your creativity goes because you're just fatigued and you start doing the functional so we can get that bounce back in our offensive step that'll give me the confidence that we can go anywhere.

1:24:13Elliot:At the moment in time, we're doing what we can do, and it's enough for me. There's a thing that happens sometimes when you haven't tasted glory in a long time, where A, you forget how good it can feel, right? You forget how good winning can feel, and B, you forget how hard it is to get there. And I think we're all feeling a little bit of both right now, how excited we are for it to happen, but how scary it is trying to get over the line. The anxiety I felt in the last few minutes of the game, and the irony is it wasn't even as nervy as it could have been from a football standpoint, but the anxiety I felt knowing what was happening at the Etihad, knowing what was happening at the Amex, understanding that if it could hold what it might mean, it was horrifying until it was exhilarating.

1:24:58It was anxiety, then euphoria. That's how it felt. And it's not going to be the last time it feels that way so we are going to have to strap in and i think if the players have to ride that emotion i said strap in paul strap in saw your reaction i was very good yep yeah you were i didn't say strap on no you didn't thank you for not saying that that would have been inappropriate um so you know if we can just stay behind them that that'll do it and look ultimately it wouldn't hurt if we get a surprise return to michael marino at the beginning of may or if martin Odegaard can get fit and have an impact if Kai Havertz finds a way to maintain fitness for the run-in.

1:25:35All of these things are going to matter, but for now, we get to celebrate a really, really wonderful evening. Fabian Hursler embarrassing himself, Mikel Arteta-looking, class, and the team on the precipice of doing some really exciting stuff. So I can't wait for more of it. It's Mansfield at the weekend. It feels like a nice break from the stress, but let's go and hammer them anyway. We'll be back with something really fun for patrons. And tomorrow, we are going to put out an interview with Jason Rosenfels. And I'm so excited for this. You know, he had a very, very big impact on the data side of the Arsenal business.

1:26:17And he just had a lot of interesting stuff to say. So if you want to join us on Patreon, that'll be out tomorrow for patrons. Then we'll have an instant reaction at the weekend and all the usual stuff coming. So, Paul, thank you very much.

1:26:27Elliot:Woohoo! Thanks, Clive. Thank you very much. strap in everyone strap in it's gonna get exciting my name is ellie smith we love you and we will talk to you after arsenal 10 manfield though

1:27:01Thank you.