Are Gyokeres and Madueke the Right Options to Bolster the Attack?

29:22Elliot:To see the games of last season, to see that we drew 14 games, tells me so much about what we need to do. You know, we won 20, drew 14, and only lost four. And that's down to our ability to add, you know, add that second goal and really drive it home. and that's what i want to see that's why we said yesterday how you think games will start i don't care i do care but i don't care you know because i just want him to play and if he's coming on 25 minutes ago they've got a real problem haven't they whoever it is they've got a real problem we can decide how big that problem is but i mentioned you name i mentioned yesterday tim i mentioned you in lisbon we brought on forwards and change your change your life do you mean and um and that's in my mind the ability to have that change up is so important to us you know and it really is now a five sub game and we haven't had that ability and so I'm looking forward to that and the other thing that's really important is that when you're in a dressing room mate and you're putting on your shin pads and you look around that dressing room to see a bloke with muscles and a beard that the other team when they get off the coach are going to say he looks tasty and a bit of fear factor about us.

30:40I think that's also important. We can't be little church mouters and think, I can't wait to play against Sterling. I can't wait to play against Mourinho as a centre forward. He's not going to run me back,

30:50Elliot:so we're going to squeeze up the game. We need people that make them think it's going to be a tough day today. And if we see him off, they're bringing on somebody else. We've got to see them off as well. That sort of psychological help is really important to the confidence of the team that we have. So I am hopeful, Elliot. I don't like to push back on your analysis, but every once in a while I have to, just to give another perspective. And I think we should emphasize that we don't know that he can grow a beard. At least I've not seen any pictures of him with a beard. He is quite handsome. I will also say - It's that celebration that, you know, he's hiding his five o 'clock shadow.

31:26So many of us middle-aged men excited to be doing that celebration. We're going to look super cool doing that. Let me tell you. And hopefully we have to do it a lot. But he's also maybe someone to give Califiori a run for his money in the wearing your underwear around and getting photographed in it. So, you know, there's a lot of angles we can cover this. We can cover this from. Tim, one of the angles I want to cover it from is more about the operation of the football club. Andre Obert has come in, and it's a change. It is a change in the way we operate. We're linked to more players. We seem to be negotiating with more players directly through their agents and their representatives to get terms with them agreed so we can make a decision on where we want to move based on what's available to us.

32:06And I think that allows us to act quicker when our primary target doesn't come off. If Edu was criticized for anything, and we don't know that it was Edu's fault, by the way, it's that we didn't seem to be able to move off our primary target quickly enough and effectively enough to get someone in. That's how you wind up with a Raheem Sterling, and that went, you know, bad. um but that's how it's interesting yeah well so so this is where i want to go with this because andrea burt has come in and all the reporting seems to suggest that victor gilkrais was not high on our list and that burt really rates him and that he had the ability to come in and communicate his ideas with the group enough that he has convinced people this is the right move because i'll tell you something there's not any aspect of me that thinks we are buying Victor Jokeres if Mikel Arteta is not excited about that signing and invested in that signing.

32:54But that clearly wasn't the direction we were thinking of going initially. So I think it's encouraging that Berta has formed the kind of relationship with Mikel where he can suggest an alternative, be trusted and listened to. It's also going to mean that Berta gets very closely aligned with this move and defined by this move. And I just wonder what you think of that as our first real bit of evidence of Andre Iberta coming in and making a difference in what the position of the club and the manager were before he was here yeah I think well a lot of the reporting as well is that Arteta is just adamant that someone has to be in by the time they got on that plane to Asia and but I think more what this shows is that I mean first of all again just going by the reporting I don't know what we're saying to these players because there's all this like geocores is like do you want me to set my house on fire um he's giving up two million euros of his salary to try to bridge the gap in in valuation he wants us yeah exactly like he he he's really really and don't get me wrong i know like he's 20 there's a context here he's 27 this is clearly going to be his last chance for a move just turned 27 well you don't even have to do that he's 27 until he's 28 he's just turned exactly i heard he actually moved his birthday um you know he was like do you want me to falsify my birth certificate will that help um stop you're risking him not getting a work permit now and then but it's the same with like the reporting around madueke like that he'd apparently there'd be no pay rise or anything it's like what are we saying to these players that's that's like causing them to do this but i mean what it shows is clearly the value of having spoken to giocres his agent whatever else so they can pivot and like because i don't think they just picked up the phone to him a couple of days ago that's clearly been on the back burner it's almost a bit like um one of those like 80s sitcoms i don't know like cheers or something where like someone goes on two dates in the same night or something like that and you know like just keeping like keeping keeping things going so that you can pivot really quickly so that you can like with Norgard for example um how quickly they've they've been able to pivot to that and I think it's pretty clear and I know you guys have discussed this it's pretty clear that there's some kind of agreement with Brentford where it's like if Arsenal Man City Man United Barcelona Bayern Munich if any of those guys come in let me go for under 10 million and clearly Arsenal knew about that somehow right so like someone somewhere found that out before it became apparent that we were we were going to go and buy him so i think really i think it's kind of less maybe over the influence on arteta because he does seem to be pretty on board with this and i if i was going to take a guess i'd say that his stance is roughly i'd have preferred sesco but like you know let's get something done and this is this is a deal that's more doable but it's more that we've been in a position you know like to line things up and then bash the button when we need to that that really looks like the modus operandi here that really looks like a change even as we speak the reporting is madueke we've agreed terms or whatever he's on board with it but we haven't really spoken well i think it sounds like we're just starting to speak to chelsea samadezzi it's all like yep personal terms won't be a problem he'll come and all of that but we haven't spoken to palace yet i'm not clear on the actual legality of that to be honest but i think it's pretty naive to expect that that hasn't been the way of the transfer market for quite some time so for me it's more like the way of working i i've never had the impression that arteta is indecisive on these things to be honest we bid for sesco last year we bid for watkins in january you know maybe he doesn't have full control over the numbers and and all of that but like i i don't think this is something bert has presented to him i think it's been like okay i'll go and talk to both i'll negotiate with both we'll see where we are in early july and if there's no movement we'll go for the one that we that we think we can get i think that's the the flexibility and obviously he's a guy with a lot of experience he's done this role for a long time so you know i i like what i've heard so far around that you know the targets we can debate we will debate but the way of working i think looks looks really good i think it's important to restate something i said months ago and that I will stand by as opposed to what I was considering doing, which is just be hypocritical, but probably just going to stand by what I said instead, which is I can't tell you for sure which of these players will be better in the Premier League next season.

37:39I can't tell you for sure Seska was the better player for us or Gil Koresh. And I've scouted them and I've looked at them and I've watched the comps and looked at the data. I can't tell. So it's not fair for me to say, oh, they should have gotten Seska. here's all I wanted. Us to get a striker in at the right valuation early so we could be ready for preseason. And then I have always said I will judge based on how the player plays for us. And I'm not going to go back and pretend with hindsight, oh, we got it wrong. We may get it wrong. But I don't think it is clear which of these two players is going to be a star in the Premier League or if either of them will.

38:11So I'm going to just give the club the benefit of the doubt that if we get a player at a good valuation and get him in early and we're excited about the guy we're getting. Let's see how he does. Because there are times when I feel like I have a perspective on a player that I want to share. This is one where I find it very hard. I think both players are interesting and I don't know which one will wind up being better. I do think that Leipzig are going to wind up regretting this massively, by the way. They need to sell players. They have a financial need. Maybe Shabby Simons goes and they recoup some money there.

38:41But 90 million was never happening. This is the thing about Benjamin Sesko. I think he's exciting. I think our link to him led people to start to build him up to be something he has not yet. He is a flawed player who needs to develop, who is not a 90 million player. And so at this point, I'm perfectly fine with us walking from that deal. Any negotiation you are unwilling to walk away from is not a negotiation. Well, also, there doesn't seem to be anyone else in there. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't look like you can create a bidding war there. Yeah, if he's Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Mark 2, or Haaland Mark 2, where's where's the other teams backing up a brinks truck liverpool need a striker i don't see them backing up this brinks truck you know so i i don't know we'll just have to see clive as as a final point on this um i'm curious if you think we'll see interesting things like jokras maybe play off the left with kai starting up front at times you know i i wonder if you think he comes in and starts right away for us um i i know you're not as concerned about how many starts he gets but Kai Havertz is a very important and very good player for us and the best football I've seen us play in 20 years we played when he was a striker from January to to May of the season before last so how do you see this playing out in terms of his role you were shaking your head vociferously for those who don't watch the video um to the idea of him playing off the wing is this really just a case of those two battle it out for this position may the best man win yeah just have a couple of strikers most teams haven't and we've got a couple and that's it we had we didn't have one last year for the key winning months.

40:15We had a centre mid doing a sterling job up there. We managed to make that work, so I'm not worried about this in the slightest. I sometimes think when we discussed this striker thing and the last summer we had Sesco was being spoken about, the release calls was 42 million and he didn't come. So disappointing now. So what did we do when he didn't come? We did nothing. Because maybe nothing else was lined up. So we went into the season Rhys Nelson left on last day. We get Ryan Sterling. Everyone's giggling at us. We lose all the forwards. Ryan Sterling can't beat an egg. And suddenly we're sitting there with midfielders in the team.

40:52So if you want to think about, I sometimes think in my work life, I think about the meetings and the discussions I don't want to have. If that happened last year, the discussion I don't want to have this year

41:04Elliot:in my next review is, why did you not buy a striker this year? Can you tell me why? have you not learnt from that previous discussion so for me to have the fact that we got Gabriel Jesus you know three months three to four months away from being back playing and Tim knows that return to play can take a lot longer than that you know we have to do something and so this was never a stress for me I'm not worried about how many starts he has and who starts I think it would be plainly obvious who should start not much like anything else the first 11 presents itself to you the 11 presents itself to you based on how we're playing and what the opposition wants to do so I'm never worried about that the fact that I should know this but I said to you yesterday I hope we can get 30 to 40 appearances from him that'd be fantastic because we didn't have that last year if we get 15 goals brilliant you know that'd be absolutely fantastic if he can threaten the back line a little bit more and make people disconnect a bit more defenses that we're facing be a bit more worried about him maybe Saka scores a few more goals, you know, and gets off the pitch earlier, doesn't do his hamstring.

42:12Elliot:There are knock-on effects on this that I want to see, you know, so, so yeah, I'm not worried about it yet, and when we see the pre-season games, which I will be buying my tickets for very, very shortly, I'll get a chance to have a look at them, and then come back and say to you, this is what he's doing, this is where we're different, he spends a bit more time on the left-hand side versus having us on the right-hand side, maybe, that's what I've seen, see it in real life, and so does it really manifest that way? I just think it's so good we've got another player in the forward areas I don't want to be having a discussion from the manager say why have you brought more goalkeepers in your tenure at Arsenal than you have brought forwards that's discussion you don't want to have right and and so we're open to that criticism so yeah just fix it let's do that renewal right now and go from there fair enough if you want to see what this player is about by the way as I said we've scouted him multiple times.

43:04There are scouting videos using the YScout professional scouting platform. We can watch the footage and hear Clive's analysis and then hear me say stuff like, oh, look at the goal! Which adds a lot of context and important detail to the analysis being provided. So you can go over to Patreon and watch that if you want, or on the Apple subscription either way. So, I want to talk Nani Meduake. Do I want to, or do I feel obliged to? I feel obliged to talk about Nani Meduake, about Ethan Winery potentially leaving the club. nothing that we want to contemplate about Leo Troussard leaving the club something we maybe want to contemplate and all of that before we get to our section on Thomas Party but I do need to tell you about a brand the one thing before I tell you about a brand that I just want to say on the Patreon I had a chance to express my sympathies my condolences and my heartache over the Diogo and Andre Joda passing I did not get a chance to do it on the main pod as I was traveling and Phil covered so I do just want to send my love and well wishes and thoughts out to obviously that family, to their friends, to the community of people who are suffering as a result of his passing.

44:08Absolutely horrifying news there, rocks the football community. And as I said on the Patreon, where I did get the chance to mention this, you know, I think that we are all bound together through a love of football that while tribalism sometimes splits us apart, can also be a powerful way that we come together. And it's unfortunate that it's often tragedy that does it, but I think it is a chance to see the best of what we are as a footballing community and our love and support for one another. So I certainly send my love and support out to the people that need it. And just wanted to say a word about it because I didn't get a chance to on the main pod and I didn't want people to think that it wasn't something that I had, you know, experienced and thought about myself.

44:48So, you know, with that having been said, now I will tell you about brands and then we will talk about Nani Mduake, three very, very different topics. Okay, only one brand to tell you about today, and that is Shopify. If you're starting a website, it's funny, I was just visiting my sister. She built her e-commerce site on Shopify, and it looks brilliant. And she is the least technical computer savvy human being that I know on the planet. So you can have your product sold on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook and all the marketplaces that you need because you cannot run an e-commerce business today without having your products on those social media platforms.

45:21You can concentrate on just making the product you love, making the products or creating the products or sourcing the products that really inspire you. Shopify powers Fortune 500 company e-commerce sites, but they make it so simple that you just upload the pictures and write the description. They do the rest and they handle things like cart management. Oh, you left this in your cart. Do you want to check out with this? Do you want to add this to the cart? They handle taxes and shipping and all of that. They make it easy to have your products show up where they need to be so you can be a success in your business without having to be an expert in the e-commerce business.

45:53So I would strongly recommend that you use Shopify. And if you want to do that and you want to use our promo code, well, Established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your$1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash arsenalvision, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash arsenalvision, all lowercase to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com slash arsenalvision. Do it now, Clive? Is that enough of that?

46:16Elliot:Indeed. Nailed it. Okay. Not even Dweke. Clive. On the scale of supremely excited to unable to contain yourself, where do you find yourself today? I find myself torn. Oh, that's a climb down from what you said on Sunday Night Clive or Friday Night Clive. Well, because when it comes down to it, right, I find myself torn. Well, there's different sides to this. I don't find this exciting. I don't find this feel good. right so when the Eze stuff broke I just felt really good I think he creates tactical issues for us much like I said the same for Smith Rowe is he a left winger or is he a is he a 10 does he really fit us but I didn't care because I felt good you know because I really like him as a player and I think he brings a lot of joy and that's what it's about you want to see your team and you want to feel joy and happiness right so when I when I see Noni Magdewicke I don't feel the same joy if i'm honest with you earlier and my first view is oh mate you're a little bit like and i watched him to be honest i've always watched him in a context playing for england where he's been the sort of competitor to one of my favorite players ever in all of time right so so i'm not gonna like him because he's the guy that is competing with saka though he's never really going to compete with saka you know then suddenly i'll sort of bind him to compete with saka i'm I'm thinking, this doesn't add up in my mind.

47:44Elliot:I look at the way Mikel Arteta runs his team and his club, and he's a serious dude, as we all know, right? And there are certain non-negotiables, shall we say. And I don't think Nani Maneweke really adheres to them. So I'm thinking, well, this is not going to work. It doesn't work in many different levels. But then you take the other side of things. Then you start to break down what he is, his age, his athleticism, his ability to take shots right in the back line. to play both sides if you're looking at as pure football you can't dismiss it because you're just not thinking straight if you're doing that you can't dismiss it i might not like it i might not think that suits my eye but you can't dismiss that the kids playing for england you can play football you know and you could say is it is it 50 plus mineral i don't think it is you know and um i'm just reading something which makes it very interesting i do think it's all about what happens thereafter you know do do we um use him as a left winger adding to that pool of players with a left foot on the outside going around the outside a bit more do we use him as a two-sided winger you know then you look at from a footballistic point of view think oh that's actually got a bit of something to it so the fact he's running around have a headband on come on clive you've got to think a bit smarter than that does it work for us does it work for us football wise i can't sit here i said to you earlier i can't sit and want change and renewal in forward areas when they bring in someone who i don't like the cut of his jib then moan about it you know because i want to see change i'm sat there watching games when we're pinned in our area we can't get out we can't transition on the pitch this guy can do that you know he can do that and so there's two sizes i'm i'm struggling with it if i'm honest with you Well, you know, I'm always honest.

49:33But I cannot sit here and say he can't play. I can't sit here and say he won't get better. And he might get better in our environment with our manager. Last time I looked, understands how to improve players and coach players into assistant. So two sides of my brain, mate. I'm trying to switch off the headband side and look at the football side. First of all, I think it is entirely relevant to point out that I just think when we get linked with Chelsea players, there's a little bit of an eye roll and an exhale of breath and a frustration just because we've gone to that well a lot. And to be fair, sometimes successfully.

50:16I think Kai Havertz is a success. I think he's a good player, and I'm glad we have him. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Can I just say, Elliot, anything I said there, I didn't mention Chelsea at all. I don't care he comes from there. They've got half the players in the Western world. We're going to buy players from them because they've got all the other players. Well, okay.

50:33Elliot:So it doesn't bother me, it's Chelsea. I just want to see, I watch him and his attitude and how he plays. I question it sometimes. But hey, look. A club that has acquired that many players is a good place to shop because they've got too many players and they wind up having to offload them. What I don't like is paying what feels like full fare and£50 million to back up a Kai Osaka for a guy who has had some question marks about attitude and application and, you know, some of the things he does on the pitch, who is not a sure thing and who ideally in a perfect world won't even play that much. That just feels like giving Chelsea full fare for a player that we don't need as a priority.

51:09Now, if you tell me we're going to get Eze and Rodrigo and Giochres and oh, by the way, we're also going to get Nani Maduike, then you know what? Fine, whatever. But if it's Nani Maduike and Giochres and that's it, those are the forwards we get, I don't like it. I don't like the idea of him becoming a priority option on the left. I don't like the idea of paying a full price for a player that should be at a discount because of their need to shift players, in my view, and his dissatisfaction there. And I really don't think he's a player who plays our style of football in some ways. He's a great carrier of the ball.

51:38He can dribble pretty well and he gets shots, but he does not set up his teammates. He is not a player who I think looks to create for other players at the level that we expect from that position. and I know there'll be people screaming, well, you cry that we overplay Saka and then you cry that we don't buy a backup. I don't cry that we overplay Saka. The best attacking players get played all the time. I've said it on this pod before. Mohamed Salah averages 36 starts a season since he's been at Liverpool. So, Clive, if he's the luxury additional forward we buy because we think he's got massive upside and we don't mind paying 40 million for him, which is the price I think we want to pay, I could live with it, but it feels like a lot of money for a luxury signing when I think we have other priorities.

52:22That's where I'm at, Clive. I know you're – Tim, don't worry. I will get your take on this. But you can see Clive is bursting at the seams to come back in here.

52:28Elliot:Well, I just wanted to give you another scenario really. Please. Because we're happy to take the take-away risk of Rodrigo, for example, which could cost double that. Right? So if I said to you we're going to get Eze, Madoeke, and Jokarez, is that enough? You know? because and now you're talking about you know a couple of players that played in the league as they can play on the left out wider but he can also add to the attacking midfield slots madame can play both sides say we were to lose i'm just i'm scenario here earlier so you were to lose trossard and add as a madame and and jokeres and keep martinelli you look at the group you say okay this is a this is a discussion to have because i've now got serious cover on the right hand side because mark nearly can do it but it's not as good as it's not that it's not optimal for us and so i'm looking at the cake as it's being baked and i'm trying to just hold back on my gut feel on this because i don't know the story you know and so back to what tim was saying earlier on we've got options now because what but the way he operates so we've got to be comfortable with that and we've got to be mature enough to absorb it so when i say things about the headband i need just slap myself on the wrist and say, that's not mature enough.

53:48Elliot:You've got to be better than that. You know, and wait to see how this all pans out. That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah. I mean, just to give you an idea though, of why I think people would rightly be concerned with this ESPN UK reporting. And I quote, Arsenal are continuing talks with Crystal Palace and Ebrecha Eze. Sources said things are positive between the three parties. It is unclear if Arsenal can sign both Eze and Nani Madweke after completing a move for Victor Jokeres. And so again, it comes down to what business does this prevent? Because I can get talked into the idea that a 23-year-old forward with Premier League experience who does some things pretty well, if we get him down to 40 million, like you could talk me into the idea there's some value there.

54:31If that comes at the expense of getting a Rodrigo or an Eze, I hate it. And oh, by the way, which we'll come to in a moment, Tim, Bakayo Saka should play a lot. I hope he does play a lot. I want him to play a lot because that's what the star wingers do. Whatever minutes are left, I'm totally comfortable letting the future superstar we're developing out of our academy get those minutes. And I know that Ethan might see himself as more of an eight stroke 10, but he's got to play the minutes we have available, just like Pakaio Saka broken in the team at left back. So I would much rather have Saka plus Ethan and then know we've got Eze and Rodrigo, whatever, than have Saka plus Medueke, fewer minutes for ethan and maybe not even have a zan rodrigo i just i i can get behind the idea that there's a player in there but i can't get all the way to the idea that it's a move that makes sense for us and those are two different things right there's definitely a player in there i just can't get to the idea that's a move that makes sense for us yeah definitely i i think um i think first of all i point people to some good writing if you do like i i share all the reservations if you're asking me who I want out of Maduake and Eze.

55:33I don't have to think about that very much, to be honest with you. That's not something I have to ponder over too much, even if, you know, I'd say reservations over Eze, not over him. Like, where does he fit? Like, Uge profile, all that lovely stuff everyone loves talking about. But yeah, like with Maduake, do we need better cover for Saka? Maybe, maybe. I'm with you. like he's our best player he'll play every game but would i at least like like a player who you know when he goes out does our whole world fall apart you know i know you you carry you always carry risk with your best player but you know do do we can we limit that risk somehow and i think there's so many contingent things like how much do they think maduake can play on the left for example i haven't you know listening to chelsea fans like yeah he's played on left a few times but it's not his best position does seem like it's the right i think it what it smells like to me is that there is a potential sale in the air um i hope it's not ethan but maybe a trossard or a martinelli and that's the that's the thing about this stuff i'm kind of with clive on this particularly this summer like you you only know what you know when you know it right like something drops one day a tweet drops and then you know don't you and then there might just be stuff that we don't know and it does smell a little bit to me like they're not not an absolute definite but there might be a sale in the air somewhere and that we are prepared either open to that possibility in the case of Martinelli and Trossard and and like I think that's okay if we're kind of preparing for that if like okay we might get a good offer for one of these guys which we might want to take and if that happens again looking at the way burt is operating we want okay yep we'll let you go because we've got this guy to come in and we'll we'll refresh that way if it's ethan which which it very well could be in the contract situation then it's then i think that that's a that's a very different conversation um but it does feel like a little bit some groundwork is being prepared for something that we don't know yet um i would just say on madueke if like me like you're a little bit dubious about it but um some good pieces uh written uh ahmed walid in the athletic wrote a really good piece on him i think scott wrote a really good piece on him as well and i'd say scott was i think it's fair to say still quite lukewarm on the prospect or i think his final conclusion was at this kind of price okay but he you know he talked a lot about like he matched his data to like Semenyo and Bumo and players like that and kind of said actually his is better and maybe if he was playing for West Ham or Bournemouth or Brentford would feel differently about it and I think that's definitely like a position worth understanding and absorbing like the Chelsea thing I have less sympathy for it I have to say I think it's nonsense I'll say that sorry to upset anyone listening i think it's nonsense i think it's irrational um to feel like that um a good player is a good player wherever you get them from frankly i think our record recently buying from chelsea's fine like yeah all right willian massive mistake but chelsea let him go for free they didn't get anything out of it sterling guess where he is now guess whose problem he is now chelsea's like yeah i'm sorry all this stuff about oh chelsea you've got the best out of even our biggest mistake from them william they got nothing zero pounds zero pence sterling zero pounds zero pence and he's still with them so like i'm not having all this oh chelsea love selling to arsenal no they don't um quite frankly so i i think there are some misconceptions and i think it's slightly emotionally irrational um but yes i i share both of your reservations about madu okay but I'm prepared to wait and see whether there's just something we don't know yet.

59:41You mentioned how this smells, and I should just mention, by the way, given the heat and hearing the fact that I was on a plane earlier today, what you may be smelling is me because I don't smell that good. I would go so far as to say I'm going to test the ability of video and audio mediums to carry a scent because that's how bad I smell right now. Clive, the last point I'll make about this, though, to Tim's point, Like the reporting that ESPN UK is putting out is that Mikel Arteta has admired this player for a while and thinks he could convert him into a really good left winger. And like, I do think if you took the shirt off his back and you didn't look at some of the Instagram stuff and didn't look at some of the, you know, the shirt he's been wearing.

1:00:20And you just said there's a 23 year old who has these stats, this data, you know, has done this stuff in the Premier League and we're going to buy him for 40 million pounds, you know, from inside the Premier League and make him our left winger. I think there'd be more openness to it but when you've been linked with guys like Rodrigo and Eze like I cannot help it converting Meduake to left wing to be our big left wing signing I cannot pretend and I know look I know there's a player in there I can't pretend that's the move that I'd be excited about so in terms of that if it is the left wing signing and not just a luxury depth signing for Saka, does that make it more understandable for you or more frustrating?

1:01:05It's why I mentioned this scenario around what if we got him and Eze and didn't get Rodrigo? How would you feel about it? And that's why I'm open to it. The centre-fold discussion we've been having for over a year now, I was never bothered by it because as soon as I saw Mikel Marino look good, I thought, we'll be fine. Because the other players are much better than that. the players are on offer i like both of them so we chose one great i can make that work i mean i sat in this chair speaking to you talking about cedric coming in and after after watching me in the euros i justified that move that he can play two-sided fullbacks and when i saw him kick the ball into the stands a few times i realized maybe i shouldn't try so hard to justify it you can justify anything if you want to right so i i feel this player has got some potential

1:01:55Elliot:he has But I'm wondering, just listening to a few Chelsea fans talking online, they're sort of keen to see him go. And that makes me think, why should we be picking him up? But he comes back to trust. Do you trust the manager, right? Do you trust him? And I do trust him when it comes to football side of things. I do. He's improved a lot of our players. He's given us a system of play that we've really grown with. and he's put us into a really good position, right? So we just need to do the last thing. And that last thing was always going to be a challenge in wide areas for me because we play wide quite a lot.

1:02:35We really run those players out. Everything we do, it goes there. And from there, we create and do things.

1:02:42Elliot:And I don't think we've had enough wide players that threaten. And he does that. So I can't say too much. You know, I can't say too much. Let's see what this looks like. if we got a wide player option next year of you know of ese martinelli maduweke and saka as wide options with ethan in behind them it can help out but he's obviously supporting odegaard as they support the attacking midfield situation and we've got two center forwards and we've got marino as well they can dovetail center forward and attacking midfield i look at that whole group and say that's all right do i want a spectacular left sider probably but i can't say until the whole thing's been done so i'm struggling with myself mate here my gut saying one thing but my um the brain that people are reading things and the brain of remembering it's football and not what clive feels is fighting it's fine yeah yeah look well i think we're aligned on this i i think it is possible to believe a player has more talent than maybe general perception is giving him credit for and still think it's the wrong move and that's kind of where I am with this right now we'll see if if it makes more sense you know you mentioned Rodrigo I'll just say this I think Rodrigo is a phenomenally talented player there's absolutely no world where he should cost top dollar this summer he's coming off his worst season at Real Madrid they clearly don't have him in the plans he's clearly not satisfied with the role he's got there why is a player who wants a way that they're ready to let leave who's coming off his worst season worth absolute top of the market price i think he should move but i think real madrid can be moved off their valuation so that that's one to keep an eye on just in terms of again can you get him at a price that reflects what his standing is right now a guy who clearly has loads of talent but is coming off a down season and isn't wanted at his current club let's let's we'll see how that shakes out but But Tim, in terms of the Meduake movement, in terms of rumors that have some people spooked, I know that there's every possibility this is just an agent doing what an agent's supposed to do, which is get their client the most money possible through whatever means they need to use to achieve that.

1:04:52And we've seen this very agent do it with this very player previously. But there's some concern about Ethan Warneri leaving. And James went, you know, and talked about it a bit, and the aggregators had picked him up. so apologies uh james as i read from the aggregator and not directly from you as it's what popped up on my timeline but uh i've seen people saying that this is just agent spin and everything's fine i'm not sure about that there's definitely an issue here am i worried about it a little given the complexion of the rest of the transfer picture and you know the complexion of the rest of the transfer picture is a bit of an opaque comment but it could mean the fact that we're looking at eze who plays in a similar position or nani madweke who would be in for some of the Ethan minutes.

1:05:33I don't want to go deep on this. Maybe 90 seconds, if you can muster it, on how worried you are about this and whether you would change transfer plans if that's what's necessary to make sure Ethan has a pathway. Yeah, I'm a bit worried about this. I have to say, I feel like I know Arsenal well and we don't just go out and go, let's get Eze and Madueke just because that would be really good and might win us the league. That's pretty much never how Arsenal have operated. No, we leave ourselves one or two players short. That's what we do. Usually when you feel like that's going to happen, I remember summer 2012, Cazorla comes in, Podolsky comes in, Giroud comes in.

1:06:14Oh my God, depth. And then Van Persie leaves and you're like, oh, that's what they did all that. So I feel like there's that kind of element to it. It does feel as though there's something in the water there. Put it this way, there's nothing signed yet, is there? And there's one year left. So you have to be anxious on that basis alone. And obviously the agent has previous and it does make you think about pathways sometimes because obviously like Lewis Skelly has kind of overtaken a bit. He's got, you know, there's a spot in the team there for him at the moment. It's not promised. It's not there forever, but he's kind of really broken in.

1:06:50And it's interesting, isn't it? How different would these talks be? Maybe they wouldn't, but how different would these talks be if he'd played less? you know if we were a situation where it's like yeah we'll start you in league cup games we'll probably even start you in fa cup games but he's had a taste of more than that now he's had starting champions league knockout games he's had starting premier league games so you know it is it difficult to row back from that for him is it difficult to go back to a plan where it's like well you'll start you'll definitely start in the cups type thing so you know maybe that maybe that's different and And maybe unwittingly, it's created a situation where it's been like, yeah, I want more of that.

1:07:31I want to be an important player in this team and balancing whether he's ready for that or not. And I'm sure there are loads of other teams who promise him that, quite frankly, in this country and beyond. There are plenty of clubs that say, we'll play you, we'll play you. I have to say, if anyone thinks Chelsea is one of those clubs, then I'm sorry. like the advice is very is it stinks and and so does the intelligence of anyone who thinks oh yeah uh i'll just go to the club that has 106 wide forwards uh to get my minutes there like that's not going to happen no um but it it has to be a worry and and look some of this is is really normal that's just what happens when you have good players like you know a few years ago we had like our backup right winger was Pepe and we were wondering if we had to pay him off to go away and um sorry I'm not just picking on him but we had a lot of players like that five years ago who we weren't like oh my god what if he doesn't sign a contract we were we were a bit like here's a couple of million quid your contract ends today so some of this is just like the the price of of having good players and having depth and and they're just that creates creates issues that the club has to deal with so yeah i i am a bit anxious about it but at the same time that i i think that is going to happen when you've when you like it's it's not going to be the first time in this cycle with this squad that we're going to worry about stuff like this i agree and i would say this i think he's staying and i'm not even worried because i do think when push comes to shove the player wants to be at arsenal i don't think ethan winery wants to leave arsenal football club and I don't think he wants to be at Chelsea and I don't know where you're going to go if you're Ethan Winery.

1:09:19Real Madrid don't want you. Barcelona don't want you. Bayern Munich don't want you. I mean they may want you but you're not going to go there at 18 years old with no pathway and with the players they have. You're not doing that. You're not going to go to United. They stink. You're not going to go to Chelsea for all the reasons you outlined Tim. You're certainly not going to go to Tottenham Hotspur. They're not going to pay you any more anyway. Where are you going to go? You're going to go to City? I mean I have no idea. You know I mean maybe but I don't think a London boy wants to go to Manchester City and be spit out by that machine, which has absolutely no interest in developing players if it's not working and will quickly abandon them.

1:09:56I think what he wants is more money. And I think his agent wants to get it. And I think his agent will get it. And I think he deserves it. I have no problem with the player lobbying to get the most money they can get. But ultimately, the agents serve the players. And I think when push comes to shove, and the agent says we should walk away from this deal and see what someone else is going to give us, I think the family and the player are going to say, no, we want to stay. And my instinct on that is based on, first of all, we went through this with him on the last contract when he think it was more likely he could have left.

1:10:20And I also think that the money he's being offered at this age is probably going to be enough to make him very happy. The last point I'll make about this is simply, I don't think the pathway issue is as important as people make it out to be. He was in his 17-year-old season this season and played an awful lot and nearly broke a record for his age group. If he didn't play much for two more seasons, he'd still be right on time to arrive in the first team. Do I think he's going to settle for that? I'm not saying he's going to settle for that, but I think he wants to be at Arsenal. So look, I'm putting my neck out here.

1:10:57I'm going to say I think he stays, and I'm not even particularly that worried about it, but I accept that people that know more than I do are worried about it and believe that there's a chance he could go. But it's just where I am with this. Clive, there is a player who could go. By the way, I'd give you room on this, Clive, but you've spoken on it before. So do you want to speak on it again, or do you feel that you've said your piece on this so far? Yeah, I mean, I'll just touch on it briefly. I think the pathway is very important. I think there's a crowd scene developing in that space. We just brought a center forward, and the guy who plays center forward right now, his next back position is the number 10 second striker position.

1:11:33we just see Mick Amarino play that position we've got Trossard complaining there we're looking at Eze we're looking at Madaweke we know that Saka complaining there we know he's got a 15 year old kid that's the best kid we've ever produced coming up behind him if you're the agent you've got to position yourself with your client to say how much do you care about me what is my path because he's going to earn money he's one of the best 18 year old footballers in the world right so he's going to earn money but he's not going to earn what he needs to earn if he's not playing he's not going to have the potential he won't stay at the level so he's quite in his rights to fight for it i hope at some point there'll be a bit of movement with the agent shall we say and um a bit of realization but i think he's quite in his rights to say hmm what's the plan for me at the moment he's awake doing keepy-ups on the beach so he won't settle down for a few days but i am worried to be honest with you because i like him as a player and he's an arsehole boy right so um he represents all of us right and represents everything that we do and how you operate at youth level all the way through and so he's a big part of our value so yeah i i hope it sorts itself out and i hope you're right you know i really do but please do not dismiss these young players ambitions they want to play mate they don't care they want to play i i have yet to see a best player in the world caliber player be unable to get into a squad i've yet to see it i've yet to see lamin yamal kept out of the barcelona team i've yet to see bakayo saka kept out of the arsenal team i've yet to see miles lewis skelly kept out of the arsenal team sometimes it's injury sometimes it's playing out of position sometimes you're just too damn good let's be honest ethan started playing for us and then he hit a bit of a wall physically and he was struggling which at 17 is completely effing reasonable by the way i'm not criticizing him i'm saying he got his chance he's super impressed and then he showed that he needed to come out of the team a bit he was well managed in my mind this season really well managed and i simply say if he's the next coming of lamin yamal if he's the next coming of kaiosaka if he's the next coming of ses fabregas you know whatever young player you want to say he'll make it says Fabregas found a way to get Patrick Vieira out of Arsenal granted a different stage of his career but my point is if he's if he gets good advice the good advice is the money that's on offer is elite for your level it pays you like one of the best young players in all the world and you're going to have pathways at Arsenal because you're that good and anywhere else you go you're going to face the same problems because the other thing is no one listening to this pod believes we shouldn't strengthen and try to win titles in Champions Leagues to make a pathway for 18-year-olds.

1:14:12Nobody believes that. Because I hear people's comments when we get knocked out of the FA Cup, when we get knocked out of the League Cup. People want us to win League Cups. Are you really going to tell me that you want to make a pathway for an 18-year-old at the expense of us potentially winning now? No. So that 18-year-old just has to be good enough, and I think he is. I think he will get in because of his talent. I think he will make a position his. Miles Lewis Skelly had 17 left backs ahead of him. It turns out a few injuries and a couple good performances and it was clearly was better than all of them so you know what ethan you're going to be good enough that no one keeps you out of the arsenal team i believe that trust yourself and you'll be there um and i hope it's for arsenal i think it will be um last couple of bits and pieces here clive i'll stay with you on this one i understand that people are frustrated with gabriel martinelli i'm frustrated with him he he is not playing at the level that i think his talent can take him to when he has taken a step back but i believe gabriel martinelli is a better player for arsenal right now than leo trussard and a more important player for the next few seasons if we have to keep one or the other.

1:15:10The news about 85 million to Saudi for Martinelli does not look like it's real, but it does look like there may be some interest at Fenerbahce and Leo Troussard. And I think if we get a Rodrigo Orneze and keep Martinelli, we are a much stronger team than if we get a Rodrigo Orneze and keep Leo and move on Martinelli. That's just where I am with these players and their trajectory. So any thoughts on the link to Leo to Fenerbahce? I think it's time for a change in that space. I'd rather keep the younger man, honestly, just because it makes sense. We haven't seen all of him yet and he works so well for us and works well in our system.

1:15:47But I think we've relied too much on him over the last couple of years. Two 22-year-olds, 23-year-olds. We ask a lot of them in all different phases of the game and they've struggled on occasions and I think that's down to us and down to a lack of quality maybe beneath them. So we're trying to fix that right now. We'll just link it back to Ethan a little bit. I think Ethan potentially is, at this stage of his career, a Trossard-type profile. Somebody can play in the interior and on the exterior. You've just got a left foot, right?

1:16:16Elliot:So someone that shoots, I think he's a lot closer to that. So if I'm Ethan and I'm trying to keep him, if he's seen those stories today, he's thinking, that's one less player I have to fight off in those interior positions. And I think that's a good thing. And that's just evolution, right? So I like Trossard. I do. I think he's somebody if you look at his record for us since he's been here it's been absolutely fantastic absolutely fantastic sometimes you've got to know when to walk away there's something going to happen between Trossard and Martin Ellie I like them both but sometimes you've got to know when you know what maybe we can do something different you know you don't evolve by doing exactly the same things right so and so I'm open to it and the one that suits my heart better is Trossard but if it's Martinelli and there's more money in it, the opportunity is big, I'll take that too.

1:17:08But I do think it'd be good for, it may be pertinent for one of them to look elsewhere for the next days of their career. That's fair. I would say a few things. I mean, first of all, I just think Troussard is sort of on the decline. I still think there's a possibility that Martinelli is getting better. Some of the data shows, by the way, when he came back from his injury this season, he was producing a little bit more of what we'd expect from Martinelli. I'm not saying it was enough. I think his running is important. We are 2-1 paced. I don't think we have enough sprinters. I want to keep that sprinting speed in the team and the defensive cover, obviously, which is not the priority in a forward, but let's not dismiss it entirely.

1:17:42Tim, do you have a quick take on that? I think just from a squad building standpoint, if I could choose, set money aside to keep Martinelli in ad or keep Leo in ad, I'd prefer to keep Martinelli. But do you have a different take on that? No, no. No, completely agree. like Trossard thought he was really good last season as well if um you know you look at the numbers there's actually more goal contributions um it flipped more towards assists last season and there was the season before but I you know that I I think either one we probably have to be open-minded um about but yeah if it came down to it and I had a choice in a perfect world I'd shake hands with Trossard so you've been a brilliant signing thanks so much but we're going in another direction and by the way he might want that too the places he's getting linked to Saudi Arabia Turkey who have very generous tax laws if you're in an elite footballer wage bracket and stuff like that I think he's got the right as well to say I'm 31 32 I've had a good few years at Arsenal good few years at Brighton play for Belgium now I'm gonna look after the next 17 generations of my family type thing I think I'd be a perfectly fair decision for him to make at this point in his career as well.

1:18:59Yep. All right. So I think that covers all the news that's out there right now, and it's going to continue to evolve. But here's the good news. There's a transfer daily, literally every single day on Patreon. To be fair, mostly it's lighthearted and humorous, but it is there for those of you who want it. And for those of you who are prepared to hear it, we're going to give you our take on the Thomas Party situation right now. We will try not to overindulge ourselves and go too long, but I think it's important that we get a chance to speak our mind on this. I know some people will want to hear it, and I know many of you may not, so that's totally your choice.

1:19:36I'm also going to put a link in the show notes to the athletics sort of primer on this whole topic because it also contains the facts. I've read some legal advice today on what can be said and what can't be said related to contempt rules, but now there is an opportunity to speak about this, so we'll do that. I'm going to turn it over to Clive and then Tim, and then And I'll say my piece, but I do want to say this. I cannot emphasize this strongly enough. Prior to the player being named and prior to the player having been charged, we were not permitted to speak about the player in association with the charges.

1:20:09And so we have not done that in accordance with the law. That has been very challenging, obviously, because it is an elephant that's been in the room. And because that elephant's been in the room, there's been a lot of people that would have liked to have heard us say something about it. Some who don't want to hear us say something about it, but many that would have. And it has been frustrating. So it is at least an opportunity to say a few words about it. But I did just want to emphasize that because I know there's some people that maybe weren't aware of that. And that was the case previously.

1:20:34So, Clive, I'll turn it over to you first to just get your thoughts. And I'll reiterate for those who aren't aware, Thomas Partey was charged with five counts of rape, one count of sexual assault. The five counts of rape are against two separate alleged victims and then the sexual assault against a third. I have to emphasize that he denies the charges. That is a legal requirement. So I want to emphasize he denies those charges. Clive go ahead Oh Awful Awful discussion Awful topic to discuss right And I'm not saying I look forward to this at all And I wondered about how to approach it I'm a football man first and foremost And as a football player We've had to talk about it over the last couple of years It's been challenging for us We're all mates we can say it right It's been challenging for us I've been able to disconnect some of the things That I've in the background and just focus on the football and others maybe haven't you know and that's out there online and it's harder for them and i totally understand that and respect their point of view i bring it back to to my own personal experiences and basics really i'm an arsel man from from my call since i was five years of age and one of the reasons why i am an arsel man is i really trust and respect and love the club and i love the club's values about the way it operates and there is some time when i start to question that that breaks my heart honestly it breaks my heart i don't care about who's dying up front i don't care about substitutions you've heard me long enough i don't care about when we make a bad decision because a club is a set of human beings and human beings make mistakes right and they get a lot more right than wrong when i have to think about the values of the club and the way it operates around the situation without being fully informed by the way without being legally informed and it hurts me when i'm sitting there in the ground and i know tim goes to a lot of games like me and he goes away a lot as well which i don't and you have to listen to the jeers and pretend you haven't heard them and support

1:22:37Elliot:your team it hurts tim doesn't it hurts it hurts your call and i can't ignore that i can't ignore that i can't i've got what we do here we speak our truth and how we feel and that's how i feel i've sat here and i've liked this player as a footballer before he came to arsenal and i liked some of his performances while he's been at arsenal i've also called him rigor mortis when he couldn't run so but we can judge the player as well that's what we do we judge football even though he's not an arsenal player i have i have issues about what we've done and how we've operated. Based on the knowledge that I have, in particular, potentially, I think there was a natural end coming and we all could see it coming.

1:23:19I think, okay, maybe it's time to end. And then maybe there's a situation where we offered a new contract. And that would upset a lot of people. And I totally understand that. And it's ended now from a contractual point of view. I think morally, we may have some questions to ask as a club, but I'll leave that for other people to judge. And that's why I am with the earlier. And I'm glad there's a portion of this is is over because then we can now talk about tomorrow rather than yesterday i think that's well said tim yeah sure i i urge people to listen as i'm sure they already have um we've got a big crossover audience with the ask cast today and the way andrew and james spoke about it i share um a lot of a lot of what james said i feel very angry and disappointed i think at the very least you can debate the bones out of what should maybe have happened and there will be different viewpoints on that and i'll come on to that in a second i think the offer of a new contract is a is a disgrace and it's uh it's completely irredeemable um from the club there was already a stain but i think at least they could maybe sort of hide behind legal process Yes, they can't with the new contract offer.

1:24:34That is legitimately a disgrace. I think there are a couple of things I want to cover off, and I'll try and do it quickly. First of all, I definitely understand the debate about presumption of innocence and all of that. And obviously that still stands. There is no guilt established at this stage. And so I understand that in the kind of debate about what maybe what should have happened and things like that. However, I would ask people to consider one of the things that I've dealt with this kind well not quite in this area but um you know professionally like what you do when it's like a violent crime or something because and one of the things that makes it really complicated and thorny is obviously you have presumption of innocent until guilt is established however there's also a safeguarding issue that comes with that that that really complicates this about how you should act because that that individual has to step into the building with other employees so that is like it's not just as black and white as presumption of innocence i think um first of all we have to we should establish and i'm not sure if i'll get this bit right and maybe i won't and i'm open to open to kind of um from certain people i'm open to kind of um comment on that but why this hurts so much for people this crime particularly people who've experienced crimes like the ones that are alleged and particularly like for our female fans as well because the burden women have to carry is about you know one of the fairest generalizations in the world is that men are violent and that men are violent towards women not all men are but enough are that that is a burden women have to carry.

1:26:20And then on top of that, there is the additional burden of how unlikely justice is if it happens to you. And then on top of that, there's the burden of, even if this happens to me and I report it and it gets to court, some of the questions that are asked of alleged victims, what were you wearing? How much did you have to drink? Very, very heavy. there are very few crimes where the victim is blamed and opened up to that kind of thing quite like this and I think the club have really missed a trick in terms of considering the feelings of those people and why this hurts so much and why this is very triggering for people and I think it's very important that the club's feet are held to the fire over this not just on behalf of Arsenal fans but on behalf of all of football which I think has a very very big problem with how they treat you know this kind of let's just say this kind of subject and I think it's important that Arsenal are criticised for this for all of football and that Manchester United are criticised for how they very poorly handled the Mason Greenwood incident no one's saying it's not complicated that it's not thorny but football has to change about this and if it means that Arsenal have to have have to have slings and arrows thrown at them then i think that's only right and and hopefully we get some kind of change yeah i want to say a few things if you'll allow me and i think you both handled it beautifully from two different angles one certainly about the angle of our passion for the club and how it impacts that and then also just the societal challenges of sexual assault and the way we talk about it the way we don't talk about it and the way we uh victim blame.

1:28:09But first thing I want to say is that these are extremely emotional topics and challenging topics that no two people will be entirely 100 % aligned on. And I would simply ask that people try to hear and understand one another to the best of their ability, which is not a thing that we do very well. When I said my piece on Patreon, I did put out an audio recording about it. The first thing I said is the most important thing that I feel in this moment is that my thoughts are with the victims. And they've spent years being abused online, being criticized, not receiving justice, not knowing if their case would go forward.

1:28:47And I did have some people come back and say, Elliot, how can you say victims? We haven't even proven there are victims yet. And I just want to speak on this for a moment because I think this is important. If a dear friend of yours came to you and said, I've been raped, would you say to them, well, until I see what a court rules on that, that I'm not prepared to provide you any support or care. No, you'd say, oh my God, I feel for you. I'm so sorry. You know, you would probably struggle for words. I know I would. But you'd want to support and care for them. And I would say that believing women and believing victims is not about denying due process in a court of law.

1:29:21It is about giving them the support they need because they have gone through something, potentially extremely damaging, and then further damaging in the way they're spoken about and how they are treated following any accusation they make. and it is just a human thing to support those people because in a small, vanishingly small, by the way, number of cases, it may be the case that they fabricated. But realize about 2 % of these cases ever result in a conviction, 2%. It is a hard road to go. And legally, there is a concept of guilt that is found in a court of law by a presumption of innocence that has to be overcome beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt.

1:29:59And I'm glad we have that standard. It protects us from having our liberty deprived of us. But that is not the standard we have to give to people just based on how we interact with them or think about them. All day in our lives, we go through, we meet people, and we like them, we dislike them, we think they're a creep, we think they're rotten, we think they're great, with no standard of evidence held to a courtroom, just what we think about them as human beings. And I realize I'm going on a bit, but I just want to be clear that I can feel things for these victims without making a judgment in a court of law.

1:30:29that those two things are not incompatible. You know, and to remember that things like the Mason Greenwood case that Tim invoked, there is no criminal conviction that has been found there. Are you comfortable having a judgment on that? Because I am. I am comfortable having a human judgment without there being a criminal conviction. As a final point, I will say that I do not know if the club could have done anything differently in the way they handled the play. I don't know about that. I heard James speak. I thought he spoke very well. I think we all agree, almost everyone universally, that the offering of a new contract with this hanging over it didn't make a lot of sense.

1:31:07If you just want to contextualize it as a football thing, which we've done on this pod, by the way, aging player, maybe a decline coming in performance, a clear opportunity to start fresh, not to give someone a lot of money into their declining years. From a football standpoint, it made sense and it gave the club a chance to say, we would not keep this issue around our badge and around who we are. And the decision to want to keep that around, I think, is hard because we do speak about these soft factors a lot, the non-negotiables, right? And we want to believe that that is a thing, but this undermines that message.

1:31:39So I would just say that where I feel so strongly about this is, firstly, that my heart breaks for people that experience this crime and that have to go through this kind of process of being criticized simply for reporting it, and that I do feel a measure of sadness that the club didn't take the opportunity, whether they did anything wrong prior to that. I realize there are legal requirements. I mean, the Benjamin Mendy case, City had to pay a lot of money for suspending the guy, right? So I realize it's complicated, but it was a chance to walk away and show that there was care about this issue and not doing that, I think, was a thumb in the eye to a very important issue.

1:32:15And that hurts. And I think Clive spoke the most beautifully about this. It hurts because how much we love and care about the club. But the club is not just a sporting institution. If anything that I've learned from this podcast and from the wonderful people listening and the wonderful people I'm speaking with now, it is a community of people who are bonded to each other by this thing, beyond just what happens on the pitch. We've gone 20 years without the glory we want on the pitch, but we all still love the club. We all still feel bonded to the club. So it has to be more than that. and I think this is just an unfortunate undermining of that, of those values and it's a chance I hope now for us to return to them but I understand if there are people that are not as forgiving you know I do want to move forward but I fully understand why people are hurting and I do hope that people who have listened to this will understand that there are different feelings these are emotional topics that there is a difference between guilt in a courtroom and judgment of a human being which we all do every day in our lives and you know that's why again my feelings are with the victims and um you know i understand that that is a complex thing and i hope people are okay with how we've handled that um and i know i said we weren't going to go on and on and of course i did what i do which is i go on and on but i'm an emotional guy um you know clive and tim i want to thank you for giving your honest assessment of it i want to thank people who have listened for being receptive to it hopefully in a way where we can if we need to continue that conversation online together or offline together in a way that reflects that we may not all see it exactly the same.

1:33:45But I think we should leave it there unless anyone wants to come back. I don't know, Clyde. Just want to say one last thing, mate. Wherever we feel and we're all entitled to that individual discussion, feeling and emotion, there are no winners here. There are none. There are no winners. This isn't about being right or wrong. There are just no winners here. And we are not informed. We have to remember that. We're informed based on what we can see and read. but there's no winners here. And I hope there are going to be lessons learned. And that's where I am with it. Yeah, I think that's right. When bad things happen, there's no winning or losing.

1:34:22There's just losing, you know. There's not a positive to take out of this, other than that hopefully we can move forward from it. And I understand if some people can't. But I think we definitely leave it there. Clive, thank you for sharing your feelings about it. I know it's something that we've wanted to be able to do. it's horrible the whole thing is horrible um we're lucky we have this platform and i'm so glad that i had the friendship with you guys that we can discuss this so thank you very much yeah i think trusting one another and trusting that we all want the best you know is is a good place to come from i know not everybody is able to be that charitable but i appreciate it tim again i i thank you for expressing your your feelings on it honestly um you know and my my hope is that you know we see some kind of resolution to this one way or the other, you know?

1:35:07Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do so. There's been, I think it's probably obvious to everyone listening, a lot I've wanted to say for quite a long time, but haven't been able to. So thank you. Obviously, you mentioned it, James spoke articulately, as did Andrew on their pod. You can certainly listen to that section. I think we are probably not going to go further on this at this point, unless there is obviously a need based on anything that happens that requires it. But at this time, I think we can leave it there. So very, very difficult. Well, not something I feel super confident talking about, but I hope that made sense, and we put our trust in you and appreciate you.

1:35:39So we'll leave it there. Clive, thank you. Thank you very much. Tim, thanks very much. Thank you. Now go back to scrolling Twitter for the latest nonsense on transfers, as we do. We love you, and we will talk to you after Arsenal 10, Transfer and Don't Know.

1:35:59Tomiyasu and Kai Havertz and Morghedele. The National are flying!