Arsenal on Brink of Title After Excruciating Win at West Ham

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0:16It's Rice. What a goal! Declan Rice with an absolute rocket with a free kick. Arsenal lead 1-0. Cut inside. Saka! Sublime finish! He's back with a bang for Kiyosaka 1-0! Unbelievable skill! Hello and welcome to the Austin Division Podcast with me, your host Tim Stillman in the hosting chair today. Elliot's on, well he's telling us it's a work trip but he keeps sending pictures of himself on the beach so I'm not sure how much of a work trip it actually is but nonetheless he's not available today. obviously our kind of our second choice as it were our Piero Hincapier Phil Costa is also not available for reasons I think we've explained so you've got me Myles Lewis Stillman in the hosting chair to talk about Sunday's quite extraordinary and I have to say listeners very traumatic 1-0 win away at West Ham I was at the game I was in the away end we are going to go heavy on I think the emotional side of this because I don't think I've ever seen a game like this or at least the last kind of 15-20 minutes like that ever watching Arsenal and I think I died medically for about four and a half minutes there so I'm on if you hear the sound of a defibrillator during this podcast you'll know why and here to go over that brilliant but terrifying 1-0 victory at West Ham is clive palmer clive um how are you voice there yet yeah i'm dying with a bit of man flu right so the men that are listening that you know what i mean it gets serious when you get these sort of issues and the women that listen you have no idea how bad man flu is right so um but i'm fighting for it at the moment and i'm really keen to hear how it was in the away ending because you've been to a few games mate for you to say this is like no other is making me think oh my goodness what was it like around the bodies and the people in that way and west ham yeah well let's let's i think that's the best place to start to be honest is we'll go through the game and we'll go through some of the performances and analyze it and the substitutions i think like all kind of three tranches of substitutions i think are really big talking points and we'll go through all of them we'll go through the incident with the disallowed goal and all of that but I think we have to start at the top with you know the the emotions that we all went through let's say from the Leandro well even just before the Leandro tross our goal where we're really going for a goal Clive you'll know as well as I do there are there are some times when you're going for the title and you get I remember 2002 we played Ipswich and West Ham in the same week and we didn't score till the last 10 minutes.

3:0698, Derby at home, squeezed out a 1-0 to go top with a couple of games to go. You get those games, but let's take it a couple of minutes before the tross our goal where we're banging on the door, we get the goal, then we think West Ham have equalised and then we have a very long VAR check. I mean, I'm happy to go through what it was like in the ground in a minute, but have you experienced anything like that and how did you experience that kind of gamut of emotion the whole day in the whole game it had a it had a bad i'll be honest it had a bad feeling for me i had i had borne my vibes and i just thought you know what nothing to say keep your mouth quiet don't say nothing online don't send that negative energy into the world just just shut up for once and see what happens and the game sort of started and we did really well obviously and then things started to happen and you realize how much little control you have if any things started to happen which didn't seem right i managed to have in a brain fade west ham winning the second ball running for our defense and ray are making the save which he had no right to make and you're just thinking oh my god this is just awful this is not part of the plan that we had and then you know our skipper comes on and plays like Messi for five minutes and literally just takes over the game and are you thinking what's going on here he sets up the goal are you going to into space where the whole world is watching this game of football but my other guy finds five yards of space in a penalty area I mean it's just not normal and then he drops it off when we school and he's like oh my goodness what's happening you know and um and then we get the we get the virus and by that time I was doom laden they're gonna score they're gonna score they're gonna score I know they're gonna score everyone in my house was saying shut up Will yeah just shut up and of course they score that's your fault and I just thought oh head in hands moment but again you just don't think it's done you know but I will say from an emotion point of view Tim I did not enjoy that at all that was that was bad mate i go and watch like you do we watch a lot of football matches different levels you watch like women's game i watch women's game non-league games i love football mate i did not enjoy that that took me to places dark places mate dark places and um it's it's very dark i know you've been you're a bigger away man i i am just thinking what was it like looking at those bodies there what was it like looking around that end it must have been something you'll never forget yeah yeah i mean obviously like the goal goes in from trossard and that is one of the most i've ever celebrated a goal because obviously we're knocking on the door we're really going for it we know we know it's do or die we know we have to get that goal and I came into the game thinking we're either going to do them 4-0 or it's going to be torture.

6:25And it was quickly, I think, quite obvious we weren't going to do them 4-0. And I wasn't expecting that either given their situation, their improvement as well. I think I read somewhere that had, I think this was prior to last week maybe, had the Premier League started on New Year's Day, they'd be seventh. They've had a good second half of the season. They made some good January signings. um i didn't like the thought of you know what they do they've got somersville and bowen who are wingers who should not be relegated from the premier league i think they could play for most teams in the premier league i don't think they'll be playing championship football next season no matter what happens and you know they go long to them and i thought this is going to be a battle it's going to be a battle and you know you you're knocking on the door knocking on the door the goal comes and honestly we're recording this you know maybe like what 21 hours after trossard scored that goal my sides are still aching from like the release of that and because of the way the away credit credit system works nowadays i very rarely sit with my friends at away games they've all got more away credits than me so i tend to end up sitting kind of on my own but you're never alone an away game basically there's always there's always kind of people around and you know you experience everything you feel everything together you know i sat next to two lads who said they listened to the podcast as well and um you know by the end of the game like we hugged never met never met before but it was like your lifelong friends now right exactly It's like, we've been through something today.

8:01If we never see each other again, we've been through something. And it was one of those, and walking out of the ground, it was jubilant. They're kind of my favorite chant in the world, the Now You're Going to Believe Us chant. People like, you know when people are so happy that they're just smiling idiotically, and that's what I was doing as well. And everyone's like walking down the stairs and everyone's singing and chanting and you know you see people meet up and hug each other and all of that but what preceded that the var check i um i was i was actually wearing this jumper that i'm wearing right now um because i've just been around the house all day no no to get parted up or anything and i just i put my head in my jumper for the whole var check because honestly i felt like I was about to cry and I was just like and you know there's a lot of um sky are very good at finding people in crowds at the moment um some of it not that coincidental I don't think some of it is and I just thought I don't want to be on sky like with my face do you know what I mean like on the verge of tears and obviously like the longer the check goes on the more you think well logically it has to be because they're going to rule it out we're right at the other end i was in row 55 so like i've got i haven't got eyes on it still but it's like the players seem so convinced and it wasn't like oh my god we've just conceded in the last minute they seem really convinced and logically i'm sitting there going if i supported any other team i'd be sitting there going yeah of course they're going to rule this out because like it's taking ages as soon as they send the ref over to the monitor when they sent the ref over saliba celebrated so i thought at that point had been disallowed yeah and then it quickly became apparently hadn't and then you're you're standing there kind of going well usually they overturn it but like that that honestly that was like a dear family member being on the operating table and you're waiting for you're waiting for the news one way or another.

10:11That's what it felt like. Because when that goal went in, that feeling in the pit of my stomach was just absolutely, like my head just went on my, hands went on my head like that. I was just like, oh my God. And obviously there was a big secondary celebration. There was a secondary explosion of limbs, as they say, when the goal was disallowed. By the way, adored the Ian Wright quote on Sky about after review of the sweetest words I've heard since Martin Luther King, I have a dream. But I didn't have the energy to celebrate it. I think I just turned around and I just looked at people and I was like, I haven't got it in me.

10:54I haven't got the energy to celebrate it. But when the final whistle went, I celebrated that. And my mouth was so dry. I was trying to sing and I couldn't because my tongue was literally sticking to my teeth because my mouth was so dry. I'm going to say because of anxiety, it might have had something also to do with pre-match refreshments as well. But it was jubilant afterwards on the way out. Went for a drink afterwards in a bar called The Howling Hops. Saw some guys, again, who I know listen to this podcast, and it was all just like hugging and stuff like that. and everyone just completely euphoric but clive what what preceded that i completely agree with you like i never want to go through it again however if we do the business and cross the line i'll remember it forever like it will yeah and i'll remember it fondly forever but like i i said to my mates afterwards i was like everyone was like how are you and i was like i feel like i've just had open heart surgery and the doctor's like, you're going to be okay, but I'm, I'm recovering.

12:05So I'm not well, that was kind of how I felt. And, but, but that, that VAR check, I, I, I think on Sky, didn't they say like, this might be the biggest VAR check in history because obviously what's riding on it for Arsenal and for West Ham and, you know, people will complain about it and you know i'm i'm on record about how much i love var and think it's great um it's all there all there on record tim yes i'm i'm on record many times saying that but like once people stop crying and whinging what a piece of drama we can say that because we're on the right side of it but what a piece of drama yes kind of got what they wanted they didn't get a title race last year that was that was our fault by the way because we didn't do our job and they got one this year and boy are they milking it they really are going for it and the way it came across on TV Tim that basically on first view I didn't see a foul to be honest with you I didn't see one I knew Ray would come because that's what he does late in games he wants to stop Poms until they start but you know to go into it technically I didn't think he I think he got there I think Shea Given said this I agree with him he got there too soon and he was there too soon and he didn't actually jump.

13:24You know, so he had no, he was there too quick. He had no leverage to jump. So he had his arms up and, you know, the West Ham guys did not need to foul him. He was already in trouble. Right? And they did properly foul him and the way they described it on Sky was they went, they flashed to Arteta and he had his hand on his arm. They're thinking, also looking for a handball potentially and like, that was quickly dismissed. You know, and they thought it might be Rice, you know, when he saved on the line, he's thinking they want to, and almost intimating that Arteta wanted a penalty, if you see what I mean.

13:55They got it completely wrong. And so you're confused on that. And then you're thinking, oh, it's gone over the line. That's definitely, that's always good. And that's one good thing, goal line technology. And then you start to see the foul. And it's, what this has uncovered, Tim, and I know you, I know you agree with this because I've seen your tweets today. What this has uncovered is a, a feral reaction to the football club that we love. And it's not based in any form of analysis, reason. It's like, I don't like Marmite, right? Some people do. And it's like, what are we doing here? Now, what have we become?

14:37What has football analysis become in the modern day? Has it become just a vehicle for engagement? Has it become a vehicle for shock factor? you know we no longer can just look at something and have a reasonable conversation about it without 50 million screenshots appearing on your timeline trying to justify something and i don't know how you feel and you're not there yet and there's a moment of joy coming hopefully but for me it stripped away a lot of joy you know about how i feel about watching football because I hold people up, particularly professional people. I hold them up. They've experienced things that we have never experienced.

15:20And I expect them to be intelligent and honest and analytical about something and not just really reveal themselves as people that actually just don't like our football club. And that's very deductive. It's not healthy for us all people watching. I just it's definitely affected how I've viewed football recently but when it goes down to it and me and you you've done more laps than me I've done a few laps watching this football team home and away and in Europe and these moments don't come along very often and despite the multiple attempts to strip away the joy I'm going to hold on to this and remember it and I can see people fighting back today online.

16:13This is a special time. It doesn't feel that special, but it's special and sometimes it's your time. And I'm hoping that this VAR decision is just a start on an unbelievable couple of weeks. But yeah, sometimes you've sensed something is on its way and I'm just, I'm not there yet, but it feels like it could be our time too. Yeah, the players at the end, I mean, obviously you have like the emotion of like effectively kind of getting a goal in the last minute, right? Like a goal being ruled out. But like Martin Odegaard came over and he just like punched the air three times, Jurgen Klopp style. And they all like, they all kind of, I've got in my mind that they like linked somehow, but they were just like stood in a line.

16:59And I think everyone feels that this was the game that was potentially going to be the most difficult. It might not turn out like that because we're going to play two teams who've got nothing to play for and maybe that frees them and maybe it gets really tense for us. I don't know. But it felt like something significant for those players. And actually I was listening to, I think I was listening to Libero last week and Miguel Delaney, who I think is well connected at Arsenal as well. He was kind of talking about how that Man City game felt like it was looming all season, you know, that it was really looming on them, that it was playing on their minds.

17:44And that once they got it out of the way, it was kind of fine after that, you know. And actually, maybe we could have done with that game a couple of months earlier just to get it out of the way. but you know there's work to do yeah but that felt very significant I think you could see it on the players and when it comes to the kind of people disliking Arsenal and all of that I feel really lucky I was completely disconnected from that yesterday because I was at the game and then I went to the pub with about 10 people and I didn't move my arse until about half past 10 um you know didn't eat a lot during the day either so you know i i i allowed that not allowed that it was just like kind of a joyous occasion um it was a mate's birthday as well my mate tim who's been to every single game this season um so you know we we we drunk it in quite literally good for you we were some people watching from home were able to do that i'm afraid they were being dragged through the coals and sometimes it is better to be there and just to absorb it and i know everyone can but it definitely affected it affected me but actually i can hear myself talking i'm thinking but it shouldn't really matter it shouldn't really matter what am i hoping to achieve you know in the end people are people right and they'll always um surprise you disappoint you in equal measure but i'm disappointed by some of the professionals and their reaction it should be better but hey look that's the modern world right yeah absolutely and in um in concert with the modern world my bookmarks folder on twitter my goodness some people really better hope arsenal don't win the league because i've got receipts and they're all going to come out if we do it um anyway let's let's talk about the the game a little bit then in the manner that we kind of usually would.

19:40Now, the line-up, unchanged. Was that what you expected? I thought we'd rotate a bit because obviously the Tuesday night game team, excuse me, you were there. Exhausting, wasn't it? Exhausting emotionally, players all over the place, the joy, the release. There's normally an emotional impact on that and I thought it'll make a couple of changes, particularly maybe at full-backs, I thought we may do that just give some energy there and West Ham wide players in Somerville and Bowen are decent I thought he might just freshly up there but he went the same again and I think within that construct of that team there are relationships and pairs that look really quite good together all of a sudden Trussell Califuri you know Ben White and Saka back together Miles and Declan in the middle and Eze and Jokere is up top obviously I said the halves are cool we know they're mates so we're good there so this is sort of starting to work so i sort of quickly accepted that and thought okay everyone's in shape everyone's going and so yeah absolutely fine with it but it was such an interesting game that as soon as we had to make a change it changed right and um to be honest tim i wasn't expecting a start like that i wasn't expecting us to be that aggressive and do that in tune i'm looking at and thinking, they're dialed in, we're going to be alright.

21:07But we didn't quite execute on the chances that we had. The Califiori should have cut one back rather than taken outside left foot shot. And he looked up and saw Eze there afterwards and I could see the look on his face as he was saying, I messed up there, didn't I? Didn't hear that call. And Eze's got to demand it a bit more, if I'm honest with you. Get your arms out, star shape, make sure they can't miss you. These little details weren't going for us and as the time ticked on, thinking oh dear you know I want to score while Saka's hot and fresh you know which he wasn't to be fair in the early stages of the game while our attackers are good let's score we don't score a lot of second half goals so as time went on I got more and more worried you know and um but we got there right we got there we we settled but I don't I know you want to go into substitutions no doubt so I'll leave that on the table for you but yeah that Ben White moment was the moment the afternoon changed yeah definitely so we have you know a couple of good chances from set pieces in particular like you say a wonderful ball by Leo Trossard in behind Calafuri we'll talk about Leo Trossard later because something's changed there and I don't really know what it is but um you know wonderful ball you know he hits the bar as well um from a set piece but you're right because the thing is So I, like you, I was expecting the fullbacks to change.

22:30And I think that's about West Ham more than us. I was expecting to see him in Capier just because what West Ham do, when they get the ball, they whack it out wide. That's what they do. In January, they bought Castellanos, the striker, because he's a hold-up player. And they bought Pablo, who didn't start this game, actually, because West Ham went to a back five. but he's a bit of a number 10. Basically, Nuno bought players to feed those wide players and that's what they've been doing since January. They bought a couple of players who can get the ball out there and that's what they want to do. ASAP, Bowen, Somersville.

23:10You know, like no messing around, no passing through the thirds. They got De Zazie as well, didn't they, to slidify at the back. So they slidify the back door and then a little bit sharper at the top end of the pitch, a bit more presence and physicality. and they suddenly look at before the game look at their record thinking this might not be easy it dawned on me it might not be easy and they got variants at Brentford last week and if you saw the highlights they lost 3-0 but they hit the woodwork three times they had a goal disallowed on a set piece very marginally although to be fair I think when they played Everton at home a couple of weeks ago the variants went for them perhaps on some decisions there as well but it wasn't a 3-0 game against brentford at all and so i didn't really take a great good well i saw the result and i took heart and then i watched the highlights and i was like no west ham could have won that on another day um so so i expected the fullbacks change i did expect to see miles in midfield again and and and declan rice but you're right the thing is but i i understood why he went unchanged i understood why it was let's ride this as long as we can and we can't ride it anymore because as you say ben white gets injured and unfortunately that doesn't look good for him um i'm not convinced we'll be seeing him again this season and who knows we might not see him in an arsenal shirt again it was very good like ben white's not a player that stays down like no this is a guy yeah yeah this is a guy who plays with a torn hamstring like he doesn't go down and stay down and and he walked off and i think he walked past us on the way off i you know unfortunately i think that looks that looks pretty bad but then and and i think everyone agrees with this about you know zubomendy comes on and declan rice moves out to right back i think we all agree that that was a mistake and arteta you know later rectified it uh but i know you explained this a little bit on the instant reaction what do you think was the thinking behind that do you think it was just as simple as do you know what maybe Zubimendi's like our best player on the bench so maybe instead of like burning a sub by bringing a fullback on I can get him on I can get my players on the pitch or do you think there was something a bit more tactical to it whether it worked or not I tried to explain to myself it's not it's not what I would have done I would have just brought on the right back because I like Mosca and I think he's good the more times he plays in a pitch in that position we're going to get a better player so just don't overthink and when I saw they're both warming up I'm thinking okay, Muscao's going to come on when Supermen come on I thought okay, what's he going to do?

25:49Now I thought for a moment he's going to match him up in a back three that's why I just thought that for a second because they weren't causing any problems so why do that? Therefore is Supermen going to go right back because Supermen has paid in defence before but you remember in the Brighton game when Declan went to right back in that game I think he had a few problems I think he was man of match in that game he was excellent and he must have had that in his mind but no mate you're west ham away that's the place where he needs to be where he's comfortable you have to read people he wants to go there and show all those people in that stadium they made the right decision to go to arsenal you wanted him they all wanted him to go to man city not go to another london club who they don't think is any bigger than them so they don't like him and now you've taken him out of his number one position and stuck him on the exterior of this game.

26:43That is not a good move psychologically for a player. I did feel, Tim, he was already playing in the right back position anyway. I thought he was too wide. I sometimes feel with Declan that he sort of to try to change things defensively he seeks lane four. You know what I mean by that? He seeks those areas. Sometimes I want him to hold the middle a little bit more and I didn't like where he was on the right hand side i'm trying to think why is he doing that is he just there to feed sacker well okay that wasn't working because that link wasn't really there in the game so i'm just thinking he's thinking well we're dominating the game let me just get another footballer on the pitch but i think something's happened where we take from rice's ascension in this group he is the key reference point for us and he needs to be there he's almost like the is almost like the glue that just stops things from starting and then he starts things for us and so by moving him out of the center of the pitch it doesn't bother me who came come into that position it was not going to be the same so you've taken a reference point out of the middle you're brought in a player that plays one good game has one bad game at the moment he's fighting for his game he seems to do better in europe but fighting for his premier league games and you said Tim can you hold this now and I think it probably affected Miles only two three games into his senior adult career in centre midfield you've now changed his partner what role does he take and you know I always talk about the game in pairs Tim I just think you broke up some pairs you didn't need to break up you broke up two pairs you could have chose one and I thought that I didn't think it was good I didn't think it was good I couldn't see it I couldn't see any benefit for it and you're sitting there thinking where's that decision come from and that for me is pressure procrastination coach is talking he's running by them they said yeah okay let's let's give it a go you sometimes you have to be you have to risk manage this situation right and say what are we trying to achieve are we risking upsetting the balance of the team for one change you know and I think we did that and yeah we got away then we got to half time and what happened at half time well I saw a message from James Bain flash up on my timeline right saying mascara's warming up without a bib and I thought thank goodness for that let's just let's just fix it who's coming off I don't know how you go also you're there I'm not sure you went down for a drink at half time but you're there you can see the subs warming up what was the vibe in the ground when that when that stuff happened it's funny you say that because I did go downstairs at halftime to use the gents, and I ran in to my mate Tim, and we never discuss the game tactically while we're there.

29:36Just never, never do. But straight away, it was like, he's got to fix Rice. Got to fix it. That's a mistake. He's got to rectify it. And it felt really unfortunate to me because it kind of had a limited impact. Like, all right, we lost a bit of control of the game. Game comes a bit more transitional again, which is what West Ham want. They get that header. But we weren't under serious threat. Essentially, we kind of threw away 20 minutes of a game. And so a big part of me is like, well, do you know what? Not a big problem. Just fix it at half time. But there was another part of me that thinks, oh, that burns the sub now because we've had to make two subs instead of one.

30:20and like we might need Martinelli and Maduweko and and have a like we're gonna have to call for the cavalry at some point and we've now limited um how we can only bring three attackers on now instead of potentially four yeah and that that kind of felt unfortunate to me but but everyone could see it like you know you don't have to be like a tactical or an analyst everyone was just like yeah that's not worked we've got to stop doing that i didn't see like the subs warming up but yes i i definitely know from covering the women's games where like you know i'm paid to pay attention to detail you know when someone's coming on right you know from the warm-up it's like oh the fitness coach is out and like you say maybe they don't have a bib on maybe they have like different and it's like all the others are doing a bit of a rondo and she's running up and down doing laps it's like she's coming on kind of thing and and so you know when someone's likely to come on i wasn't surprised about it at all i was slightly surprised it was califuri now arteta said afterwards he was injured he did there was a point where west ham went forward he got the ball nicked off him and he went down and he kind of he was near the microphones and he yelped but then like the referee said no and he kind of got straight back up but i don't know if that if that was it and I don't know where you are on this because like on one hand Califuri being injured unfortunately is very believable but I also wonder if there's a part of Mikel that was you know saving face a little bit because he didn't want to say in as many words I messed this one up and you know I had to go back to the drawing board and you know miles at left back um you know like we said we know Jared Bowen attacks that side so that was a risk in and of itself to have Miles there how did you feel about the the actual change I guess that was made yeah so I thought once Super Manly was on I thought he's going to stay on I thought you know what this might cost Miles I thought he might he might get hooked at halftime but then moved him out and Califiori came off I was just trying to think through it's not an excuse we all know the mistakes were made let me just try to reason with people as to why maybe Califiori is a 70 minute player at the moment and he's thinking you know what if i take him out now at half time in a window where i don't know it's almost like a free window i take him out now i lose him for 20 minutes but i know miles can last for the 90 so i move miles out i restore my centre midfield and i get my fullback balance together that was the only way i could think about it that he still had three substitutions left and he can use two windows to do it you know and I thought that's me overthinking it Califiori I really liked his performance it's gonna be so interesting to see if he's really injured him or just a little bit of a tweak because he may still find himself in front of the away fans when the goal went in I don't know how he got around there so quickly and so that tells you he was moving quite well and so whatever injury he's got I don't think it's like Ben White I had to be helped off.

33:32He couldn't have his weight on his leg, you know, so hopefully that's not too bad because I think he's a very important player to how we play and him and Trossard are just magnificent together. So that's the only information I could make really and it just goes back to that we potentially lost 20 minutes to Kado Fiori that we wouldn't have lost. Incapi would have probably come on for him so he's lost to Appearance V and that's just the nature of the beast, right? But he got us stabilized again and we went from there. Yeah, and from there, I was kind of trying to stay calm. I had watched most of the City-Brentford game when I got back from Villa Park, from being at the women's game, watching on a mate's phone.

34:15Obviously, the second it went 3-0, we turned it off. But I was reminding myself, City were 0-0 at halftime yesterday. But you know that it's ticking time bomb time, isn't it? It's like we got to find a goal from somewhere. Never felt to me like it was going to be anything other than a 1-0 game in kind of either direction, to be honest. So the second half kind of starts. We're probing a little bit, but not really getting anywhere, not really creating very much. Saka has a couple of siters. Like Saka didn't look great again, I don't think. and it was another one kind of when he came off a bit later like I think he could have come off quite a lot earlier but it's one of those things when you're looking for a goal you want your main man as long as possible but you know it's kind of it's very tight it's very tense but then Arsenal do make another change and they get Erdegaard on Havertz on for Zubimendi which was you know I'm sure Zubimendi you know needed I hope and suspect that Arteta said to him afterwards like it's nothing personal mate actually it's on me i i messed up it's not your fault it's mine um but i had to get it done sorry um type thing but you know have us on in midfield um as well almost like second striker but but really the change in this game comes from martin urdegaard and i don't know about you well i think i do know this because you've talked about this quite a lot but this is a side of this team i'm really liking this season where we play as a ahead of urd guard urd guard on the bench which completely logical decision but it's not an as a game not an as a game and he has very reduced influence and there are times where i've had an issue with the huge divergence in profile between those two players because they're so so different sometimes that's not helpful sometimes though it's really helpful it's it's like strikers isn't it it's like oh yeah the guy who runs in behind isn't giving you any problems we're gonna throw on like chris wood or something you know like six foot five guy and we're we're gonna give you a different problem and i really felt like the erdegaard sub in particular was that it's like oh the low touch guy that can smash it in the top corner is not getting any joy so what about the guy who's going to take 500 touches.

36:48And I felt like this Odegaard performance from the bench is one of the most impactful we've seen from the substitutes bench all season. Yeah, you know, Tim, the scenario was very similar to Newcastle away. You went to Newcastle, didn't you? Remember that scenario? We were one down and I think he came on 15 minutes before the end and very similar scenario. They were pushed back. I thought West Ham, they were dumb after halftime because we were rocking a little bit. and they came out after halftime and just sort of sat off and sort of tried to get us the last 20 minutes and see if they can get us edgy and scared.

37:23They should have kept going because they were getting quite aggressive in the challenges in the end of the first half. We were going down holding our legs from various challenges that we didn't get free kicks for and they were getting in contact and physical with us. They should have kept that going but they didn't. So we see out the first bit and then we get to the point where the other guy's substitution comes on and before the game, I actually felt it would be an Odegaard and Havertz day because my experience at West Ham is they are going to sit. If they sit, space can be at the premium and so it's not going to be a Jokeres channel day as I thought Jokeres did fine on the day in the end.

38:00It's going to be a Havertz day. Combinations, back posts, clips and just smart moving around the box with one twos and I've had a feeling for Odegaard and Havertz all day and not every game is a Havertz game and not every game is an Odegaard game. But I think the maturity of this team and maybe maturity of our thinking is, and maybe we're not always there, we've almost got like special teams in some regards, you know? And we have to be comfortable with it. You know, I think there are certain players that play, like the centre-backs, potentially Rice, you know, take full-backs, nearly, nearly, Timber would play mostly, but, you know, Saka would play.

38:43You know, But the rest is special teams. Jokeres and Havertz, completely divergent, right? Jesus, the left wingers, Martinelli, Trussard, completely different, pairs with Calafiore. It's, it's special teams. And Odegaard has fallen into the special teams category. And that's hard for a skipper. That's hard for him. And people will say, I've been harder than him, I know I have. And people say, he hasn't played well for two years. Like, well, he has played well in patches. And those patches have really suited him. And if you look at these scenarios, I actually think his best game was Villa at home in the second half.

39:18I thought he was brilliant in that game. Again, he was perfect for this, but it wasn't just, I say this on the IR, and I really want to get this out there, because I think it's really important. There are games and there are games, and there are sectioning games when people need to stand up and say, this is me now. I need to do something. My manager has messed up a couple of substitutions, but this manager has supported my career for years. and he has made me a multi-millionaire and I need to now do something for him because he needs a bit of help. And Odegaard came on that pitch and I swear to God, I had forgotten that player.

39:55I'd forgotten it. He just took over in all aspects. And there's so many little things you see when a player's on it. Even on that last, on the PAR goal, if you watch Odegaard holding off his man and not being ragdolled around like he was at Brentford, physically putting himself in there these details really matter to make sure you protect your goal and he just changed it and he just made them step back and it's no coincidence that he found the space because they were petrified of what he might do behind them so they dropped away and dropped away and dropped away great run from nonny inside channel he fit in behind there again nonny doesn't make that run he doesn't he should do it more off the ball in behind and he finds him that pins them back that they drop another five yards on the back of that you know and he's generally they can play in front of them i just think he sent he transmitted a message to say i'm in charge of this now follow me and when that happened people want to combine with him and on the goal i thought he was excellent i thought that he bubbled it into rice on the one two and rice just cushioned it back to him that's high quality play that is that's high quality oh the god delay delay delay but if you watch his layoff to him the pace of it and it's right on trossard's right foot these details are critical to allow to get the shot off just in time for such a gets the block in and it's in right and our lives change you know when you watch the training videos and they're trying to shoot into little small goals literally about a foot wide you know foot and a half wide these that's the details that they're trying to hit that's what they're trying to hear that little dink on that pass just to drop it off to Trussard who we all know is going to take that shot you know first time and whip it haven't seen it for about 90 games mind but we all know what he's going to do I just thought it was um the details of that and how they impose themselves offensively in that last quarter was really really good really good why don't we take a beat here and Elliot can tell us about some brands and then we'll do these won't be equal halves I don't think but we'll come back after you get a chance to hear about some brands If you thought Arsenal's win at West Ham was tense, playoff hockey takes things up a notch Every shift counts and you never know when a game will go to overtime or get physical NHL on TNT has the best coverage with stars like Paul Bissonette bringing laughs and Wayne Gretzky breaking down the action The studio crew makes every moment more fun, so you get more than just the game.

42:31Don't miss the drama and excitement. Watch the Stanley Cup playoffs on TNT, TBS, True TV, and HBO Max.

42:42Okay, so we're back, and we left on a bit of a cliffhanger, which was Martin Erdegaard coming on, and kind of the tee-up for the Trossard goal. We can kind of come back to that, because before that goal, there are pinpoints in this game which are season-defining, particularly when you get to this part of the season. So the Trossard goal, the VAR check, all of that. But one of the biggest moments in this game is the goalkeeper when, is it Mateus Fernandes? Yeah, good player. Goes through, yeah, dances through. Now, fortunately, because I was about 3 ,000 yards away, I didn't quite appreciate how close to the goal he actually was.

43:27He takes his setting touch inside the six-yard box. He's too close. That's kind of what does him in the end. So from where I was, don't get me wrong, it looked like a big chance, but I thought he was five yards further back. I didn't realize he was right on top of David Ryer. and you know there is um a kind of irony to this that this is the game where david raya claims the golden glove again um three games two games to go sorry with two games to spare he's done that this is a player you know we got the football writers association player of the year this week i don't really care about those awards um i think it's very difficult to give out individual awards across a whole league i think you can do intra club where everyone's under the same context I don't think you can do it for a whole league because how the hell how the hell do you compare David Raya and Bruno Fernandes like it's not possible but this Clive has been a massive player for us this season who has come up with massive moments and this was another one that you know that old cliche it's as good as a goal I understand that perhaps you know West Ham would have wanted that maybe to fall to Callum Wilson or someone like that rather than Fernandes but a huge moment from a player who has given us a lot of match-winning moments, I think.

44:54Not just this season, but during his time at the club. Yeah, this is a moment where he sort of wins a second ball and something that we're really good at. When you've got, we've stuck our attacking midfielders on, right? So the trade-off is we may not be so good on those little drops of the ball, but we're going to score a goal. And he does a little one-two and goes through. So that sort of chance, we just don't concede. So this is a half-stopping moment when you see somebody do a good one-two and get it back, and his first touch takes him through the last line. Gabriel's not there, and this is the moment where you're thinking, oh, no, here we go.

45:32This is it. All the fears that you have about not getting to the promised land, not only are we not going to get the three points, we're not going to get any points, and that opens the door up completely, me and we'll and it's just a moment where your life flashes in front of you and it just freezes and he has that extra touch to him he gets too close and then he tries to give him the eyes and to fair to Ray he says you're gonna have to beat me you're gonna have to beat me I'm not diving out of the way I watched Harlan school games burning the other week a goalkeeper died for a hot dog mate before they had a chance to shoot I'm thinking you're gonna have to beat me and um it very much felt like Emi Martinez's save against Colin Moran in the World Cup final where he stood there and then moved when he had his shot.

46:15It's the right thing to do, put people under pressure, make them beat you. And he made the save, right? And so suddenly the Football Year conversations have flipped massively. And there are different levels of games. There just is, right? Not just the volume. There are games that really, really mean something. And Bruno Fanning's been a really good player. But how many games has he played in that really, really mean something? you know this isn't a Premier League award only so for all the football so the Champions League games that Ray has been involved in have really meant something you know and so I felt it was wrong but hey look we're a little bit biased on this podcast you know but yeah let's be honest right he has educated me on what football can be and how important the goalkeeper is we all talk about our build ups now well he's part of it massively there's one game we went back to 38 times this season probably too many and so he's a key playmaker for us he has all of our tactical instruction in his mind you see how many times he goes to our tech to talk to him about what he wants to do and his exits and the distribution when you're in the game ground live he's always talking to the coaches and the manager regularly goes over he's a key leader used to be a leadership group at Brentford he's coming to his group completely change how we play, taking the pressure away from what we do, settles us down the back end of our pitch.

47:43And also, the closer you get to him, the better he is. I sometimes feel from 33 yards, he's not so good as he is from three. You know, it's incredible, isn't it? As a footballer, probably with Rice, the most transformative signings in this Arteta era. Because I think both of them have changed things. I think Slieber coming in, was already here wasn't it but if you look at those three i think they've been transformative you know and um they're just so critical to our play style what we want to do and probably define us probably one of those players that should be transformed to should be in our attack but just not there yeah it's the next phase so tim this player is critical and it's quite interesting people talking about goalkeeper in this way which goes to show isn't it the game is broadening its mind just a journey to catch up now from northwest of England yeah it's funny you say that I was listening to the Totally Football show and they were talking about this a bit because I think Michael Cox from The Athletic he'd said that he spoiled his ballot paper for Football Writers Player of the Year he said he didn't feel anyone deserved to win it and I understand that but I think the conversation they were having that I completely agreed with it's not a vintage season for attackers of course it's not you know maybe like I always get the Eagles mixed up who play for Nottingham Forest and Brentford but the guy who plays for Brentford is Igor Thiago and Igor Jesus is at Forest so Igor Thiago has scored like 20 Premier League goals or more but I think most people would say it hasn't been a vintage season for attackers but they were saying and I completely agree with this like surely that means the defending's been really good and we've got some really good defenders and goalkeepers in the league and everyone's struggling to score.

49:36So why doesn't that translate into the player of the year vote? You are allowed to vote for a defender or a goalkeeper. It doesn't have to be an attacking player. And I think, like I said, I don't really care, to be honest, but I think that's where that decision's come from. It's kind of like, who's the best attacking player? And it's just like, well, no, the premise is supposed to be who's the best player. and that can be a defender or a goalkeeper. But anyway, like David Raya, when we do the Arsenal player of the season vote on arsenal.com, I expect to see him on the podium somewhere. And it takes a lot for a goalkeeper, I think, to get that kind of recognition.

50:16So, you know, big save there from David Raya. And obviously, look, we get the Trossard goal and we've kind of gone through it. And what I love about it as well, you know, you were talking about how Erdegaard set it up. Like Trossard is set. He's set. like his right foot's on the back, you know, on his back leg. He's already pulled the trigger back. It's like, just give me the ball and I'll release. And I think that's part of what makes him such a great one-touch finisher because he prepares before the ball arrives. Freddie Jungberg used to do it as well. Perez used to do it, that kind of stride onto it because they do the preparation before the ball arrives so they don't waste time swinging the leg back.