Arsenal Win at the Bridge but Margin Should Have Been Bigger

31:52He obviously has his goal. And it may be the case that we expect our midfielders to all be able to move into different positions. But Tim, and again, we're talking mostly of the first half, but I quoted those stats. It's an unusual stat line for a Martin Odegaard that we're used to seeing being more on-ball dominant. And maybe it's the case that it was an opportunity for Rice to be more prominent, and we're obviously okay with that. So just an evolving situation in our midfield partnerships is the best way I can say it. Yeah, definitely. And I kind of think that's why we're sticking with it at the moment.

32:26James Benj has written a good piece this afternoon about Zubimendi, like getting into more forward areas, scoring more goals recently. And Arteta had talked about that and talked about unlocking him. And obviously the beauty of Odegaard is because he kind of does play everywhere. That kind of lends itself to fluidity. You want to give him the ball between the centre-backs, that's no problem. give it to him in crowd scenes not really a big problem either if you want him a bit further forward like he he really is quite an all-rounder and so is i mean that that's the thing about the midfield three they're all pretty good all-rounders that you can use in all phases of play and that's probably the thing that's kind of um at least temporarily done for eza because i don't think he is that player um i think ezza was much more kind of effective and involved when it was like michael marino coming away from the front line and him running in behind and kind of almost being a striker whereas at the moment there's a different model um developed there with with that midfield three and that's probably why we're quite reluctant to change it because it's it's working quite well and when you look at the different kind of ways we've played recently as well like you look at the Everton game where the whole thing is designed on keep the ball don't let Everton have it don't give away transitions don't give away free kicks just play piggy in the middle with them for 90 minutes and those three did that very very nicely whereas lately it's probably become a little bit more chaotic but chaotic in a good way with the kind of interchange of positions and you know Arteta was talking about Zubamendi's appreciation of space and obviously that isn't just something that you have to use in front of your back four it's something you can use to crash the box and frankly Arsenal don't quite score enough goals we talked about this a lot they don't create quite enough danger and this is another way that they found recently to kind of buttress that a little bit so it's been really really interesting I just think the kind of the versatility in terms of attributes of all three of those players is is just working very nicely at the moment.

34:40Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. Clive?

34:42Elliot:Yeah, I think it's an evolving situation. As it evolves and we have more data, we're going to have more strong opinions. And I have mine. I have them, and I've said them. But what I thought was quite interesting was how Saka played against Kukurela and what that did to the team. So we know that Kukurela likes to get tight, and Saka played him beautifully, right? dragged him into areas walked his doggy into the center circle and he followed him in there and we do a little bounce and supermendy runs in behind right and because he's got the ability to bound and bounce in behind what's previously happened when sakura and odegaard are together odegaard wants to be a wall pass for him he's a connector but he's not going to overlap from running behind off the ball so what we've done by introducing a six that can run behind behind, we're creating an all-round midfielder, right?

35:37Elliot:An all-round midfield. But when you say those words, you need to really mean it. So if you are going to be an all-rounder, you have to work off the ball, running in behind and channel run. If you are going to be an all-rounder, you have to have the ability to defend if you are in defensive areas. And so for me, there's work to do. There's balance to be discovered, right? But I'm okay. I'm absolutely fine at the moment because people are allowing each other to coexist with each other. But I'm all about what's next, and we have room to improve in this space. Yeah, and look, it is the case that Arsenal, not in every game, but I think in a lot of games this season, have been a little bit cautious and slow starting in first halves and have been able to turn it on in second halves.

36:25And that's one of the benefits of a big squad too, is you can bring on fresh players in the second half who are far more elite than the players the opposition can bring on, and the talent mismatch shows up. And Tim, I fully connect to your frustration that we didn't make this a bigger margin, but if you look at it in the cold light of day, Marino should score. He's very unlucky. That is a phenomenal save, but it is just a random stab of the foot, and it catches his toe. It's a perfect volley. Gabriel Magalhães should score from that corner. That is a layup for him. that isn't a lack of seriousness or attempts to score from arsenal we attempted to score we created chances gabriel jesus he just goes a little too early with his run or we have a penalty these are chances to make it four five six their goals they come almost entirely from i regard what i regard as keeper errors so while i get the frustration that the scoreline isn't more and i think there should be frustration i think it is a bit of bad fortune and bad luck and bad execution in front of goal more than it is not pushing to get that margin.

37:33You know what I mean, Tim? And I do want to get on individuals, but I just want to get your take on that because if I look at the second half in the cold light of day now with the emotion having drained out of it a bit, first of all, Chelsea are still a very good team. It's not like they can't be threatening, but they tried to threaten more. I think we did leverage that into more chances and more clear openings. And I can just think of a number of times, not that we weren't pushing. It wasn't like we sat back and then just let them batter us and didn't try to make it four or five or six. We tried to make it four or five or six.

38:01And a combination of us not quite getting the goals and them getting, I think, two goals that never should happen if you're starting your first choice keeper, that's what decided it may be more than any wrong approach. Do you think that there's some merit to that line of things? Absolutely, absolutely. And that is exactly where my frustration comes from. If this had been a tight nip and tuck game with 1-3-2, I'd have been delighted. If it had been a basketball game, we'd won 3-2, I would have been delighted. That's not the game I saw. I saw a 4-1 game. And my frustration is a little bit more on how we let them score two goals.

38:40There was another goal out there for us, but we scored three away from home. I'm not going to massively quibble about that. For me, I don't get... When it's 1-0, we don't let anything through. through so like Everton nothing got through 1-0 shut it down Fulham away shut it down at 1-0 there's something that happens when we go two goals clear that I just think some of that rigorousness goes and we saw it against Bournemouth and this is the thing it's a cumulative frustration if this had been a one-off I'd probably say okay well it's it's a one-off it happens but it happened against Bournemouth happened against Brighton I think to some extent happened against Crystal Palace in the League Cup as well.

39:26Us leaving teams on the hook when we should not. And I'm not fussed about which way that happens, whether it's because we go and stuff four or five in their net. Like Villa, I wasn't annoyed about Villa getting 2XG after the 93rd minute because we're 4-0 up. The game was over. That's fine with me. I was annoyed. Well, a little bit kind of a nerdish annoyance, I think. A nerdish annoyance, yeah. that you get with that but like messes up the data review yeah yeah yeah but it's it's like the bright and go there's no way we should have been relying on david riah saying making the save of the season like we should have been three nil up like and and i just and so i think it's been a recent theme not a seasonal theme back in october november there were games we were two nil burnley west ham and we locked up at two nil and that i'm i'm always fine with that i'm absolutely fine with that but at the moment there's just something where we're just not quite I think we lose a little bit of our seriousness and what it not to repeat too much what I said on the instant reaction that the thing that worries me about that I'm prepared to believe it might just be a thing that happens for a month and Arteta says look guys stop doing this and it stops happening but like the thing that slightly annoys me about it is I really think we've got it in us to win more than one trophy this year.

40:51I think Carabao Cup and Premier League are right there for us. I really do. And I'm just worried that I think to compete in multiple competitions, there are going to have to be games where we're 3-0 up with 20 minutes to go and it's over. I worry a little bit about the second leg because it's in the balance when it shouldn't be, but it's more like cumulatively over the season. if every game is a fight until the 96th minute i worry that that's gonna upend some very lofty ambitions that we have and i think we're right to have those ambitions is based on having high standards because of how highly i rate this team and how highly i rated that performance i think we went to stanford bridge and we clobbered them i think we absolutely dominated them from minute one to minute 90 they had about four good minutes in the game and there's just no way that should be three two yeah and look i think it is sort of fair to say though we scored three versus chelsea four versus portsmouth three versus bournemouth four versus villa like the clean sheets have gone and three goals should be enough to be fully when you think you're the best defensive team in world football three goals in the first leg of two-legged semifinals should be enough to see you through and I think we will go through but my point, you get my point, right?

42:13Like as much as I align with the idea that we should have put this very much to bed by getting a fourth and a fifth, it is the case, even though the XG has still been pretty good, we are conceding. Now this time it was, I think, largely down to Kepa but you know, look, Chelsea have the third best XG in the league. They may not be a very good team overall but they are a good attacking team. They do have players that can hurt you. Estevão's a talented player going up against our right back, playing at left back. They did have some success playing through us vertically. There are two teams I think that have really caused us problems.

42:40this season, Villa and Chelsea. And they have runners who can get away from you. They have some good midfielders who are good at playing it up the pitch. Actually, United would be the other one, but that was the first game hard to evaluate. So, yeah, so I, look, I'm inclined to say, just as we talked about this a few weeks ago, and we said the goals will start to come, the XG is there, the shots are there, the goals will come, they have. I think the defensive regression of the mean will come too. The XG is low. We're not conceding much. Some goals are flying in. I do think the clean sheets will return.

43:09Quickly, Clive, because I want to get to some individual analysis, including, of course, what you're your friend.

43:13Elliot:Yeah, very simply, when we weren't scoring, we didn't have many attackers fit. And now we've got all the attackers fit. We're scoring goals. At the moment in time, we've got defensive injury and we're making defensive changes. Sometimes playing with fielders at the back and making goalkeeper changes. And we're winning all the games, apart from Liverpool. So we've just got to get those players healthy. If Raya starts, this is 3-0 or more. I want Muscara, Hincapie and Calafuri back. Because then what we get, we'll get rested defenders and we will get that edge that Tim's talking about that goes when we're two goals clear.

43:49Elliot:That edge will sustain because people will be mentally fresh, mentally aggressive for longer, and not think about the next game and being economical on the pitch. And those extra yards that happen, that little bit of, we lost three 50-50s on their goal. That's not happening, mate. If we got four defenders sitting on the bench, that's not happening. someone's getting it does you know what I mean and that's just so we just need to get our defenders back so we have that stability in both sides of the pitch yep yep well said I I think we got to talk about Jokras of course I want to talk about some of the substitutions we got to talk about William Saliba and Zubamendi so there's some individual performances to discuss here just as well as something I want to get to about why Chelsea are so angry like why are they so angry they're always so angry I guess if you were at Chelsea you'd be angry too but before we do that if I don't tell you about a couple of brands you will have listened to this podcast and then you'll go into your life and be like I don't know if I should start a website or how to stream geo-locked videos and you would blame me and I'd have to wear that and I'm not going to wear that because I'm going to tell you how you can start an e-commerce business you should start 2026 the right way sell stuff on Shopify Sell stuff on Shopify.

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47:38Do that, Clive? Is that enough?

47:40Elliot:Indeed. Nailed it. Clive. Victor Yoker has got a goal and an assist in this game. And it's nice to see. It's really nice to see. and I think when you're desperate to see a player start to produce more involvement and end product, you can go over the top. I don't think this was a scintillating performance, but I think it was what we want to see. Involvement, influence, end product. It was a really nice step in the right direction. I do want to ask you one question before we get to his overall performance. Before the goal he scores, Bakayo Saka breaks it off the right. He gets the ball. He's got it on his right foot.

48:22Jokras is making the exact run we want him to make, similar to his goal that Eze set up from, I can't remember what game that was, Tim probably does. Forest. Forest. How ironic. Leeds. Well, I'm saying the Forest, was it the Forest game where Eze gets it from the left? Is it Forest? And then cuts it across to the infront goal? You might be right about that, yes. He did score against Leeds, but yes, he did. But his Leeds goal was more of a solo. It was Califuri over the top. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So moral of the story is, Saka doesn't play it. instead he cuts it back, he gets his head down, he gives it to White, he gets it back, and then eventually White plays a cross that goes to Jokras, and Jokras is first to the ball, and he taps him.

49:02But when Saka doesn't play that ball across, Jokras makes a visible sign of frustration, which, by the way, I'd expect any good striker to do when you are busting your ass to get across the defensive line and in front of goal. I think the ball should go across there, but it results in a goal, and who cares? But there's analysis seeping in about whether players want to give the ball to Yocres or been reluctant to give the ball to Yocres. I want to be clear. A, I don't think players in the heat of a moment of a big game are thinking, well, I'm not going to pass to that guy. I just don't think that's real.

49:31I don't think that happened. B, I think Mikel Arteta, who watches these guys in training every day and understands their relationships, wouldn't be picking a guy that players don't want to pass to. Like, I think none of it makes sense. But I do wonder if maybe it's having a target man striker for the first time, for example, a guy who runs in, is impacting players' understandings and that sack of making a right-footed cross into the box in that way first time might just not be something that he's as instinctively going to do after growing up at Arsenal with Jesus and Kai and guys like that. So there's a lot here.

50:01But before we get to Yocres' great performance, can you just give me your thoughts on that moment, on the not getting it to Yocres in that 1A striker position that he's taking up? Crikey.

50:14Elliot:It's a talking point. I mean, I think it is a fair talking point. You need to stay off the interwebs, mate. Because we've seen Saka cross his right foot about a million times. Nothing. He can't do it. It's not like he ripped his flipping hamstring at Palace doing the right foot cross. He'd done it for England as well. So I think at the time, in this particular scenario, Saka was in dual mode with Cucurella. And I don't mind him doing that. I want to see that man embarrassed on any football pitch. And he had his head down. He didn't play the ball in. And then sometimes that happens. It happens all the time.

50:46Elliot:The trust thing, sometimes on the pitch, when a player's in a bit of a rocky moment and not showing the right body language to receive it, sometimes players turn away and just go somewhere else to somebody that's on it a bit more. That happens on the pitch, and some players have a connection, just a natural connection. You can't explain it. They have that connection. They understand how people are going to move, and they're already playing the pass for what even comes. And Jokeres has still got to build those relationships with many players in this team. He hasn't really got it with Odegaard. hasn't really got it he got it with Trossard I'd say you know and seems like he's got it with Ben White you know shall I say based on the small evidence that we've seen but this team has tried to play to him early you know they've tried over the season we're a lot more direct than we have been in many many any other season shall we say so yeah I'm not worried about it at all really I think it's good I think it's good that he's standing up for himself and he's now out there I want the ball across the box mate put it in there You know what?

51:46Elliot:There's two sides of that coin. If I put a ball in that box, you better be there. Yeah, of course. Because last week, there were screenshots of balls coming in the box where he was three yards away. So this is a deal, right? This is our contract we're going to have. Then, mate, be on your toes and be where you could flash and cross the defender and flash and turn the post so you can have those side foots because I'll put the ball in there for you. So I think it's good. It's healthy tension, if there is any at all. and if the healthy tension is a center forward running in between the sticks mate i'll tell you that all day because that means we're already in a good place on the pitch so amen i want more of this because we're all we're all desperate for me right and the barrier to success is to success there's a few of them and one of them potentially is scoring when we need to so let's work this through shall we let's work this through and um and hopefully we're going to get a better player out of here.

52:38Yep, agreed. I'm going to come back to you on Yolkras, so we'll stay on this for a minute, but I'll go to Tim for a second. And one thing I do just want to say, and Tim, I congratulate you and the away fans. The Yolkras song went up a lot in this game before he had scored. There was great vocal support for him, and I just think, for a striker going through a goal drought, maybe he doesn't strike me as someone who's ever low on confidence, but maybe, you know, wanting to know that the fans are still behind him. Online can be noisy. You don't know how much players are aware of what's happening online or aren't aware, but they could definitely hear their name being sung in the ground.

53:09And I thought it was great to hear his song go up. It is a game where he's on the, you know, he's on the score sheet, both as a goal scorer himself and as an assister. And while I don't think the goal is stunning, it's exactly what you want. You're center forward standing basically at the goal line, having beaten the defenders there to get it in the net. And we've often bemoaned not having strikers in that position. So let's give him credit for being there. I think it's lovely interplay for the Zubomendi goal, and he's very central to that. He had another nice little run into the box where he shot and it was deflected just wide.

53:39This was a more active game from him. He moved around the pitch, I think in a way that was encouraging. And let's face it, our press was effective against a very nervy back line of Chelsea and he was important in that. This was a game where he got to stay on for a while and I think he continued to influence the game as it wore on. And that's something we've talked about. Jokic being substituted like 58 minutes when he's a player that I think can still be impactful in later stages of games. It's also the first time we've seen him play in a while where he had had a weekend off, so he was on full rest.

54:13And I think that makes a difference for a player like him. So all good things directionally for Jokeres. How impressed and important was this for you? Yeah, I think what he's done here is he's won his place in the team on Saturday, for sure. I think if he dropped another three or four out of 10, it might have been, can we get a start out of Jesus? Zeus, is Havertz ready to start? Could we do Marino up front? I think those conversations would be happening. If he had another anonymous game, he didn't. I liked the second he got that shot off quite early where he turned in the box and he was kind of surrounded and he turned and he had the shot off his left foot as well.

54:51I thought, okay, yeah, this looks a lot better. You know, that's what I want to see him doing, like using his size and his physicality, trying to get shots. It looked different. You know what I mean? You know, when you just see someone, you think, okay, I still have a question about him with home games. I don't think we've seen him have a good home performance yet. And maybe there's something about low blocks and what he has to do there and everything like that. All his best performances, list them off, they're all away from home. And I think that probably says something, but guess what? We're away from home on Saturday against the team that's got like six foot eight defenders.

55:30So more of the same on that. his goal and his assist exactly what we brought him for exactly what I envisaged close range tap in where it could just obviously like Robert Sanchez thank you for being rubbish but that could just as easily just be a Chelsea defender there like smashing that away for a throw and there's no one there but he's there so all good and the hold up play for Zubimendi again that's one of the things I've been a bit frustrated about not seeing enough from him I got really frustrated with him in the Liverpool game where we were struggling to get out and we started to go long and he was too deep and he was nowhere to be seen.

56:09He wasn't posting up. So that hold-up play, he's definitely got the physicality, I think, to do that. And this was much, much better from him. And I'm, you know, again, you and Matt did a very good job of debunking the whole, oh, some players don't pass to him, which is just nonsense, basically. He leads us in final third passes received per 90. Yeah, Saka makes a good decision to pass to Ben White, ends in a goal. And Ben White is probably in a better position. But I'm with Clive on that. I want to see him demanding the ball. Definitely. I really want to see that. I don't see any problem here.

56:52People have tried to blow it up and say, oh, Jokrez hates Saka because they've got this. That's idiotic. Yeah, because they've got this thing in their heads about Saka not passing to him, which does not bear up to any kind of scrutiny whatsoever. But I also think what Clive said is right and stuck this in my column going out later, but we haven't seen him develop a partnership with anyone yet. And that has to change. Hopefully it will. But I think Jamie Redknapp on Sky, to be fair, when I first saw the title of the clip about Arsenal's wide players not passing to him, I thought, oh God, now this found its way onto sky but to be fair what jamie redknapp was saying was because we have two inverted wingers we do more cutbacks than like low balls across the box and i had in terms of partnerships again the conversation you and matt had um and i'm with matt on i can still see madueke on our left wing and that is a partnership i could see i you know i can see that vision as it were we haven't really seen it yet but i can see a left wing well because that cross would be on a stronger left foot right if he's on the left yeah exactly on his stronger side going to the byline getting the ball across on his natural side i can see that still happening especially if you have a calafiore who's going to be more inside right so you can have a real touchline winger out there i i will say though that pass marino plays to yokres for the zubamendi ego more of that please you know what i mean if he's going to make those little dagger runs if he's going to run across yes if he's going to run across the face of the defender feed him the ball um i want to get to a couple other players but clive i promised i'd come back to you and i am coming back to you here your thoughts on the overall performance yeah i mean on that marino

58:41Elliot:pass as marino's a little bit more i'm doing it in two touches and so once he receives it he's looking for a run immediately and so the runner's thinking i better run because marino's not odegaard who doesn't need he can do it in five touches if he wants to because his manipulation the ball is really really good right marino's a little bit more straight you can read him when you can read a player you can move right so comes back to developing relationships trossard there's a little thing gets the left hand side he stops he starts and then he looks up you better be running mate yep because he's passing it into that into that area either through legs around the corner to califuri or i'm going to dink it in there but i'm going in so that pattern is set you know what i mean and so you can play you can run in there now on i inverted crosses things that's when sometimes you think we're almost made for havert with our inverted wingers because the little dink to the six foot four bloke on the back post that's havert's all day isn't it you know that's marina all day and so now we have to do something slightly obviously Saka can do anything he likes the left-hand side is an interesting one what does that what's that cycle look like we've been talking now for about four years maybe longer about our left-hand side and uh what is the Arsenal left winger gonna be right and um so yeah that's an interesting one there but he's got to develop those relationships his performance overall when when Tim spoke about left foot shot the singing started after that shot and i thought that's when the crowd really lifted him and i was buzzing to see that um hey look elliot i said it last night he's had a struggle on occasions he hasn't looked fit on occasions he's not as fast as he was last year that is in the data but he's 27 not 37 that means to me he's either not fit or he's carrying something simple as that so he's struggled we can all see it but i know for certain we need this player in our squad in maybe in our team on occasions because we don't look as secure when he's not on the pitch our two other center forwards that everyone's loving we've both been out for a year so if you can guarantee a performance on them but you know more than about football than me right so um they're both being eased back in and so we need to keep jokeres fit and healthy and available and that's probably why he probably spent 10 minutes too long on the pitch yesterday because he is going to start again in the weekend while we build others up you know so i'm so pleased we need this guy whether you like him or not i guarantee we need this guy of this profile you want to change him for somebody else to give a similar profile to him we need this in our squad we don't have anybody else that can do it yeah yeah it's a really good sign um and i do just have to say marino que jugador is that how you say it um what a what a player and i owe him an apology the the old shaquille neal i apologize i was not familiar with your game um you come from spain you're a midfielder i've got you in a box in my head you're gonna just sit there and have clean touches deep in midfield you know nice progressive passes elegant technique he's just not that guy to your point clive if he has to do it in three or more touches i think he looks terrible honestly he's the opposite of Odegaard who can manipulate the ball.

1:01:58He can't manipulate the ball, but you know what he can do? Stunning shit in one and two touches. His first touch when it's a shot is as good as anybody in our team. And his second touch when it's a pass in behind is brilliant. He is a sensational footballer who can be dropped into a position and give you a seven out of 10, but he can give you a 10 out of 10 and he can do the things that change football matches, provide a pre-assist like this one or a goal he's very very very unlucky not to get a goal that volley who in our team strikes that volley that clean i mean it it's just he just always makes incredible clean contact but clive i'll stay with you for a minute i want to talk about our twinkle-toed playmaker a little bit because i think it's an important conversation to have which one um saliba yeah okay uh yeah against liverpool saliba was basically our 10 and in this game he he felt that he had to be again This was the game that makes you realize Saliba's just a Rolls Royce because defensively, fine, you can't get past him.

1:02:56But he was dribbling guys in midfield. He was dropping shoulders and running past them. He drops his shoulder in midfield, plays a through ball in Saka, and if Batty Ashil doesn't take Saka out, that's a clear goal. And honestly, if it's one yard further, it's either a penalty or a red card. He has the shot from the right channel that just lands on the roof of the net. against Chelsea. He had probably our best pass to create our most dangerous move, Chelsea against Liverpool in the nil-nil. He is being given more responsibility on the ball and he can certainly handle it. He plays, he's got the classic nice feet for a big man.

1:03:34He plays on the ball like he's five foot seven, you know, but off the ball, he's a colossus. I was just so impressed by him in this game club.

1:03:43Elliot:Yeah, he's growing up, isn't he? Him and Gabriel have decided it's time to win some trophies. Can I give you the quote? He said on his own social post, I'm tired to finish the season without nothing in my pockets. That's what he said. He wants trophies. If them two decide we're not going to concede a goal in the game, then we're not going to concede a goal in the game. And that's how good they are. I think I think what's really impressed me is that when Gabriel was out before he's been people have picked on Sleba to say he's a bit shaky without his partner you know and but I thought when Gabriel was out recently I thought he really took the load Agreed He really took it on and really shown you know and became the leader back there and Mikel quite rightly gave him a day at home on the city as a weekend to say that's your reward for carrying us in the last bit of time and Gabriel has now got to take up those minutes, right?

1:04:44Elliot:So that's why I'm worried about them two, really. We want to make sure we can take minutes of both of them. But yeah, he stepped up, Elliot, hasn't he? He stepped up and he's now an adult. And watching some of those Chelsea defenders are quite talented, but they look young, didn't they? Nice athletes, you know, move around the pitch well, making bad decisions, being pressed off the ball, losing their picture, just not good enough yet. haven't got enough minutes on the pitch yet. And Sliba, he got those rusty minutes out on loan. Came into our team. Since he's come into our team, this team has been in the top two ever since.

1:05:19Elliot:So he's been that generational and life-changing for all of us. So a brilliant player. We look a much better team. You look at what Rosini was doing with their back line yesterday, playing the ball out. Mate, what are you doing giving the ball to Fafana? And they can't look after it. They can't look after the ball. We are so blessed that when he gets the ball, our attacks start. And we think anything can happen from a positive direction. So yeah, brilliant signing. Brilliant player. And we got him for five years. Fantastic. I love him. And the way he celebrates goals, his enthusiasm on the pitch, he's delightful.

1:05:59The partnership with Gabriel, the friendship they have, delightful. Love him. Tim, when Mikel Arteta really rates you, his compliments always come with a demand for more when he rates you when he really rates you the way he talks about a declan rice for example what else can you do what more can you do it's a pushing listen to what he says about martin zubomendi well i think when we talk about zuby it's what else can he do he can do whatever he wants it's a bit similar to declan's qualities we just have to keep unlocking that in his system in his brain because he's so good at occupying different spaces, carrying the ball, dribbling, winning duels.

1:06:35And he has a talent when he gets in the final set and into the box. He's so composed. He sees the picture very clearly. The picture actually is clear sometimes. I know the parts of the pitch and what he's done today. I think it's phenomenal, not only the goal, but the performance as well. This is a player that I think there's more to come from. And in a sense, I think we overlook what a stunning acquisition this was this summer because it's an acquisition we were aware of as early as the January window of 2025. But the six is one of those really hard positions to solve. A lot of teams just can't solve it.

1:07:08We went many years, I think, where we struggled to solve it. He has come in. He looks like he's been here forever. And in a very dynamic midfield where players are asked not just to be in one position but all positions, he looks comfortable. The physical step up to the Premier League hasn't bothered him. And the way he takes his goal, I mean, I'm glad Jokers gets an assist there. But that's on the edge of an assist because the touch, the extra touch, beats the man beats him again finds the finds the back of the net it's a beautiful goal and it's just part of a beautiful performance overall yeah definitely if you look back at the goal as well he fools Martinelli as well if you see like Martinelli jumps like like someone's just shot at his feet on that feint which I think might have helped put the defenders off as well yeah absolutely he's just capable of quite a lot more than the options we had there before in Partey and Jorginho who kind of have to sit there in front of the back four and they can distribute and stuff like that he can do a lot more than that and it just almost looks to me again going back to the the discussion we were having about this kind of very fluid midfield where everyone does a bit of everything that looks very deliberate to me it kind of looks a bit like um Arteta's look to this and thought is Declan Rice a six is he an eight he's kind of all of them in one he gets forward as well is there a guard eight ten six is all of those things so maybe it just makes sense to have another guy who's who's all of those things as well um so you've got kind of three guys who are really in tune with one another um who've got the athleticism to get all over the pitch who make good decisions about when to go and when to stay and you know like again it's just another um example of how people have got this Arsenal team really wrong in terms of how they defend and why they're so good out of possession it's not because they're sitting there in a deep block like they you know they're they push right up and all three midfielders are going forward in different phases of play so you know that there isn't really like a dedicated like number six which I think a lot lot of teams are kind of moving more towards that model now of like swapping the pivot and being less predictable and and all of that particularly when it comes to picking the ball up off the center backs and the other things Zubimendi does a lot if you ever want to know where the opposition center is going or where the corner is going or where the long throw is going just look at where Zubimendi is standing because we sit him in that back line a lot as well because he wins headers like you know really only Marino I think rivals him um for that and Gabriel like every time the opposition has center I look at where he's standing and it's like yep that's they're going to go long into that corner and we're standing Zubimendi there to to win it so like he's often like a third center back um as well and you know we're able to kind of split the center backs that's something else we've been doing a lot recently like in terms of our exits The centre-backs are really on the corners of the 18-yard area and getting out that way, and Zubimendi is kind of standing between them.

1:10:21It's just all of our other signings have kind of felt like trimming, as it were, a little bit of decoration, a little bit of depth. So far, none of them have really, really caught fire. This is just a clean upgrade on what came before. It enables the team to do a lot more. It's enabling Declan Rice and Martin Odegaard to do a lot more. And I think this signing, more than anyone by miles, has led to a pretty significant evolution and upgrade in what Arsenal are capable of. Yeah, well said. Clive, if you're right, I just want to kind of start to wrap on this game so we can do a real quick bit on the Forest game.

1:11:08And one last thing I want to talk about is just the late substitution, Kai and Jesus coming on. And we wound up having Kai and Marino at the eights. You know, I think there's some people that don't like the idea of Kai playing in midfield. I've always felt that remains an option for us. Jesus, I have to admit, I'm more mixed on how he's looked since he's come back in than maybe some are. But he's in the group. And that's, by the way, way more than I think any of us expected him to be to begin with. but it's great to see Kai just getting out there and getting some minutes but any thoughts on that sort of end of game situation look I mean it's Kepa's fault that they get a goal we should have gotten the goal late we didn't finish and then Kepa I think gives them one to be fair to Garnaccio he just seems to do well against us for reasons I can't fully understand he hits the ball sweetly it is what it is but your thoughts on that last little stage and maybe the idea of Kai coming in and playing midfield at the end with Marino

1:12:02Elliot:yeah I don't think any just about getting minutes into legs I don't think anything positionally is the best way to get minutes into legs and look after people. We've got another two away games to go through and we're going to need all our players in a particular weekend. See, I don't see anything more. People are already starting to, Jesus come back, scores his goal, rips off his top, lovely goal, beat Villa 4-1, oh, get Jesus to start, and now he's had a couple of rough moments. Oh, he's lost his physicality, is he the same player, blah, blah, blah. We just have to wait, keep building them up.

1:12:38Elliot:It's going to be the same for Kai, by the way. Kai strolls onto the pitch at Portsmouth. Looks like, well, what have we been doing in that position for the last year without him? And then in this game, he was just moving around, another brick in the wall. He can't be as spectacular because we missed him. And then he's just going through the motions. He'll probably get a bit of time in Europe when the game's a little bit slower to get him going again. There'll be a time for him. you know and when he's on it fully and moving well we won't be able to miss him you know so um so yeah just keep using them earlier keep using them and i will say uh i did feel a little bit sorry for ethan who i felt had a really good game at the weekend showed a lot of talent and his reward was to not be in the squad again and and because we are bringing back these senior players and i totally get it right if you're the chairman right you got someone on 260 a week and you can't have him sitting in a coat.

1:13:35Elliot:The kid goes out, right? But I felt a bit sorry for him and I hope that circle goes around again and he gets a chance to be in the squad and show himself on the pitch. Yeah, I mean, Ezzes stays on the bench for this game, doesn't get off the bench. That's an expensively acquired, very talented player in his prime who might have been saying, the game's opening up a little bit, get me out there in the space, I can do some damage. So difficult choices there, you know? I think Saturday may explain a few things about what we did on Wednesday yeah well that's where I want to go next one last thing though there's a flashpoint at full time a bit of a fight Enzo and Zubamendi Zubamendi just smiling in his face which honestly if you're angry and someone's smiling in your face that's only going to rattle you further these are just a very emotional lot Clive Chelsea have been on the wrong side of emotional for a while now it'll be interesting to see if that changes under Rosseñor but like it certainly hasn't already I have to admit the worrier in me, the whiskers in me, I wish we had kept it 3-1 or made it 4-1 only because I would like that to be a rotation second leg rather than a first choice second leg.

1:14:40And now I think it's a first choice second leg and with Caicedo in there and maybe DeLapp comes in and you get that emotional, physical, over the line Chelsea. It's just not something I need in my life at that stage of the season. So any thoughts just on Chelsea always being on the wrong side of composed emotionally and if you have any concern about that spilling over in the next leg.

1:15:02Elliot:Well, yeah, I do. I have concerns about me swearing on this podcast now because you talk about Chelsea way too much, right? So I've got to hold my composure. Hey, look, it's not a club I like and I don't like how they're approaching things. It's their choice. They can do whatever they like. But I just want to see us continue to grow the gap with them. you know at the moment they've got trophies they've won every trophy there is and we need to start so i'm not looking at them let's focus on what we can do next and if we start winning then what what what can they say yeah fair enough i just um you know i i do think they are a team that sometimes goes out to try to win a game first and if they can't win a game to leave it on the opposition and i i just i think that's part of who they are i think that's how caseto plays I think that's how Cucurea plays.

1:15:53I think that's how Liam DeLapp plays. They got a lot of players that play in that manner. Okay, so it's Forrest away this weekend, Clive. Forrest currently just above the relegation zone, just above the drop zone, but like seven points above it. So like just above is still quite a bit above. Obviously a better team since Deish came in, but the wheels have kind of come off that a little bit. Thoughts on Forrest a bit, but also if you do expect Mikel to just go with what we regard as the recognized sort of first choice, or if this might be a time we see some changes.

1:16:30Elliot:No, I think there's some people maybe flattening out on form, which is fine. We could do the similar team, and no one would have an issue with it. But I saw Saka play the full 90 yesterday. Was that right? And I often feel maybe there's potential to add a freshness of Nani in the game. They kept Nonny off the pitch at Chelsea to not create any angst, shall we say, because he seems to be unpopular, some of the Chelsea players in the crowd. And so keeping their quiet. But I would say, yeah, come on, get into this Forest game. Let's start fast and maybe overfeed him in this game. I would like to see Eze as well.

1:17:09Elliot:Trossard's had a couple of steady games. He's still a good player. What I find interesting, funny enough, we talk about Eze not being able to defend on that left-hand side. there was a time we sat here and we would all prefer Martinelli to play because Trostas couldn't defend and he's got it now and no one thinks that anymore because he's so diligent on both sides of the ball and it'll come to Esay as well and I would like to see him get some minutes because I don't want him lost to the group so yeah I see a couple of changes potentially in those wide areas just to start the game and see how we go and I'd like to see it I want to see another face to the team right so um that's how i see it forest um you know sean dyke i uh he's going to be strong right they're going to be a strong team but when i say strong i was that's not that's not correct i take that back i watched them play against west ham they were crap they were crap but they got their win and they got their seven point gap which means now they can go at this game properly and don't really care what happens because they're not fighting arsenal right so for any position They got the win they needed, and they can prepare and target the games thereafter.

1:18:21Elliot:But they're going to be free-spirited and quite quick and aggressive, so we just need to match them, take control of the game, get the first couple of goals, and see them off. Yeah, granted, it's Saturday, Thursday, but it's easy to forget that Forrester in Europe, and they play Braga, Braga away on Thursday. now I have to admit thankfully I am not up on the Europa League standings so let me take a quick peek at where Forest are and Nottingham Forest are currently qualified to go through to the next round and have a chance to break into the top 8 if they can beat Braga so with a small squad and a squad that almost certainly can't go down but almost certainly can't go anywhere good it wouldn't surprise me if they have a little bit of an eye on that Thursday game is the more important one and certainly might have an eye on it if we can get a lead and they they start making business decisions around that fixture I mean look if I were a Forrest fan I wouldn't be thinking gosh we need the three points against Arsenal because the drop is not really beckoning I'd be thinking we need the three points against Braga let's try to win a European trophy we've seen West Ham win a European trophy right Europa League's a major tournament compared to the conference it's a major tournament and Forrest have a chance to be in the later rounds of it.

1:19:41That's pretty special to them and they have a pretty good European history, obviously having won the European Cup, but like not in recent memory. So I think there might be a little bit of that. And Tim, I think this is a big moment for Mikel in a way because, all right, you committed to building a big talented squad. This is a Wednesday, Saturday situation. This is a team we should beat away, but there's so much riding on every game this season. City will have played before us and assuming they dispatch United, which they almost certainly will, they will have closed the gap to three points. Can he find the resolve to make some changes, to bring in an Eza, to bring in a Nani, to, you know, make a few little tweaks?

1:20:24Or is it going to just be back to the group that I think he has the most trust in? Because when push comes to shove, this is just me saying this, I don't know this, just me saying this. I think Mikel has a smaller, tighter group of trust than maybe is acknowledged. I mean, I could see Marino coming in. I think he's in the circle of trust, right? But the others, I'm not as sure. What about you? Yeah, yeah. I think in this game, I think we're more likely to see some of that rotation in the inter-game, i.e. players like Madiwaki. 100%. Ezer coming in. We've rested the big guns for Portsmouth. I imagine the thinking was, we'll put them out for Chelsea.

1:21:06We'll put them out for Forest. We'll hold some of them back for Inter. And then we go again against Man United. And then we've got that Kairac game. You know, like there's some opportunities coming up for a bit of that rotation. I think the other thing about Forest is they've got a lot of explosiveness on the counter. You know, players like Amari Hutchinson, Callum Hudson-Odoi, Morgan Gibbs-White. They can break on you very, very quickly. and in Igor Jesus as well, they've got that kind of, they're really good kind of Chris Wood replacement, that player they can go long to, post up to and get out.

1:21:41So I think we're going to have to pick the guys that do the business out of possession. So I suspect we'll see Martinelli start instead of Trossard, just to give Trossard a bit of a break, as it were. Yeah, maybe Mourinho could come into one of the three midfield spots. I still tend to think we'll see the midfield three. I think we'll see Jokeres. I think we'll see Saka. I think the back four. I think we'll see Timber again because they play Amari Hutchinson on that right-hand side. It's slightly similar to Chelsea. They leave their wingers quite high. So I think we'll probably look to Timber again to manage that and then take him out maybe for Inter and play Luis Skelly in that game.

1:22:26So I just think where we've given ourselves the room is the Champions League. And I don't think for one minute we'll make like 11 changes and treat it like the Carabao Cup third round whatsoever. But we've given ourselves a little bit of liberty in that inter-game in particular. And I think we should use it. And so I think that's what will happen. Realistically, the lowest we can fall in the Champions League is to second. and first and second are functionally the same thing. They avoid each other until the final and you have home leg, second leg, all the way through to the final. So first and second are functionally the same except for the seeding, which hard to predict which is better.

1:23:06Second might even be better. But functionally, the furthest we can fall is second. And realistically, even if we lose to Inter, if you assume we're going to beat Kyrat, we likely can't fall out of first. So the Inter game is, look, Mikel's not going to want to go lose at Inter, of course. but he's got a big, strong, powerful squad. He can rotate for that game and take whatever outcome we get from it. The upshot, obviously, being if we beat Inter, he can literally play the U12s for Kyra Almaty. It won't matter. And I do think we may see something like that, to be fair. So, okay. I think we're knocking on the head there.

1:23:45We will have an instant reaction on Saturday, of course. Clive will be joining for that, which we're very happy about. And we'll have MainPod next week. main pod and insert reaction Monday, Tuesday. Phil will be covering both of those. So we'll have probably two of the best pods we've done all season, Monday and Tuesday. You won't want to miss that. For now, I will say thank you to Clive. Thanks, Clive. Thank you very much. Thanks, Tim. My pleasure as always. Thanks, everybody. We love you so, so much for being here and for being a part of the community, the conversation of what is trending towards a special season where hopefully William Saliba will have a lot in his pocket at the end of the season, not just attacking players, but trophies as well.

1:24:20We love you. And we will talk to you after Arsenal's hand. Forrest Nill.

1:24:44We'll see you next time.

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