Arsenal Win Made Even Sweeter By City Draw

30:31I think my read on it was that I felt we kind of maybe just pulled Declan Rice away because he was over next to Arteta a lot. Do you know what I mean? He might have sort of been in the dugout for a lot of the first half. I felt like we pulled him a bit more central. In Adrian Clarke's piece, he wrote about actually how Rice and Zubamendi became much more of a double pivot. They actually backed off in the second half to give us control because they'll go and win all those duels and then you go from there, basically. Whereas I think in the first half, perhaps they weren't standing in the right places to recover some of those loose passes.

31:09I think that's kind of what it was. Maybe a bit of Bournemouth tiring as well, but us just going okay let's make sure we do that and then from there we go and play and i think that's kind of what you saw in the second half and obviously rice being perhaps a little bit more central had um some even more tangible benefits in the second half yep yeah i agree that clive your thoughts on the tactical dynamic there i um yeah i i felt there were some pressing

31:40Elliot:issues with us and that caused the gap there's always a cause and effect isn't there so when you see gaps what's caused the gap and so when we're pressing off the front line what we were doing we were gambling what i call not goal side so odegaard was gambling to gambling off the touch so if you if a player's going to touch it backwards if you go the other side the attacking side then you nick it then you're through on goal right you're through to your careers you got radwick okay, sprinting, Martin O 'Reilly's sprinting. But if you gamble goal side and they turn back towards our goal, and all of a sudden, we've gambled on the press and they're running through.

32:17Elliot:And then you're talking about, oh, they're running through again. And it's been a little bit of a problem for a little while. And I'm conscious of the fact because that same gamble press against Aston Villa, against Jadon Sancho, ends up with the best assist of the season. So there's risk and reward in this, you see? And so we got done a couple of times there and we got done a couple of times in Villa in the first half. You know, but Declan Rice is always the guy that you've got to keep him in the pitch. And, you know, I have a bias towards a double pivot. So for those who know this, you might as well close your ears right now.

32:49Elliot:When those two players, Rice and Zubermany, can see the game in front of them, I have very few worries, if any, because they're so intelligent to either squeeze up, squeeze out, whatever, but they've got to be in front of them. And they can choose where they go. They can go either side. It doesn't really matter. Rice has primarily been a left-sided, six months of his career, six, eight. And he has been for Arsenal, but he's done a little bit of work on the right-hand side recently. He had right-back experience, has maybe given you a little bit of fun on the right-hand side. As soon as we start to be a bit more smarter in the press, as soon as we start to be a bit more smarter getting the ball into wide areas, it was over for them.

33:25Elliot:Completely over for them. And I think the key is for us as watching fans is to realise that every team will have a moment. It's what happens within that moment. And let's be honest, they had a long shot and a heel pass from our centre-back that gave them their goals. There's one shot from Clive Vert, I think, who's curled past the post. I can't remember much else. Would that cause me any sort of angst? And so it's about seeing off their moments and recognising why it's happening and adjusting. And this is why I think we're really, really good. Really, really good. We're learning lessons really, really smartly.

33:58Elliot:And touch wood, we're taking the drama out of football. We went here a year ago. One dramatic challenge when Evan Ilsen made the most of it. And suddenly, our best centre-back goes off the pitch and misses the next game. And in this game, if you watch Evan Ilsen and Sliba play together, Sliba knew what he was going to do. He kept dropping off him, let him do his diving on the floor. It's about learning. Can you learn by experience? And so I really love the learning and the calmness and composure, even in moments when we don't feel good and how they recover from the errors and just fix them. And I think it's really a big part of what we do.

34:39Yeah. I also want to just say, it's a side note to this, I'm so glad that we won this game in part so that the decision by Manchester City to leave Semenyo at Bournemouth for a game and then not get the win over Chelsea, like it just played out perfectly. right now who knows if city were actually involved in that or if it had anything to do with that but if it did absolutely hilarious um tim it it's getting really really difficult to discuss deck on rice because you don't want it to just be a hagiography right you want to try to say something analytical or something intelligent but mikhail was asked if he's the best midfielder in the world you know when i he he sort of said yes while saying we have the best midfielders in the world.

35:28I think he wanted to give the group credit. Declan Rice himself gave Odegaard credit. And obviously Odegaard critical in both of the goals he scores. He plays it to Rice for one of them. He slips it through beautifully to Bucaio for the other. But this is a game where we really, really needed him in all phases. And once again, he delivers. I actually think he should score more goals. I do. His technique is so good with the way he strikes the ball. It's so clean. he's really thrived in this eight role that we give him whatever you want to call the role but the box-to-box role and I think Mikel deserves credit for seeing in him a guy who could because you know if you're a typical manager you'd look at him and say I need that guy in the box on corner kicks no his technique's exceptional I'm gonna have him take the corner kicks this is a guy who should just be sitting in front of the defense screening because he's so good at ball recoveries no I'm gonna have him everywhere on the pitch because his technique and his quality is such that I don't want him left out of any aspect of how we build play so I think Mikel gets credit for seeing the well-roundedness and the technical capacity in Rice's game.

36:28But this is another game that he just absolutely bosses and grows into and does what is needed to make sure that we get over the line. He's having a season where it feels like every time he plays, he does that. Yeah, definitely. When we signed him, I think I said I felt he was quite misunderstood in the respect that everyone viewed him as a six. He played at West Ham as an eight as well. and actually they'd alternate season to season between him and Suchek. And when he played as an eight, he'd put up good numbers for a team like West Ham, like decent numbers. So I always felt that was in him. And I always felt what I saw in the player in West Ham was that he always added something to his game every year.

37:10And that's basically what he's done at Arsenal. And if he can add double figures for goals, for example, all the better. because we don't like it it's it's actually it's it's quite um amusing isn't the word i'm i'm grasping for here but it's interesting how the left eight thing was such a discussion for such a long time and i feel like i haven't even heard the expression left eight now for such a long time like not least because kai havertz hasn't really played there marino doesn't really like he's made it his own and we don't it's funny how like we we really assign that nomenclature to it like left eight left eight like left eight this is the this is the position that's going to unlock Arteta's team and we don't talk about it anymore and but we don't talk about oh because Declan Rice has nailed it you know what I mean like and and I think that's kind of right as well because I think it would almost minimize um well not almost it would minimize what he does which is um what's the title of that movie everything everywhere all the time or something yeah yeah that's kind of what and who he is and on all that kind of ball recovery stuff we still see that we just see it 20 30 yards further up the pitch than than maybe we would which is absolutely fine by me and the the real thing he's got going for him in terms of longevity of career as well is obviously he's in his physical peak at the moment so he can do this like everything everywhere all the time when he gets a bit older he won't be able to do that but he'll he'll sit he'll he'll be a decent six in his 30s might even go to center back he'll be able to do that he's just like pretty good at everything and he works on everything and he he really like obviously there is a lot of talent in this player but i guess a bit like someone like david beckham it's like this is someone who just works on their game absolutely relentlessly at all aspects of it wants to be the best all the time and if and when um arsenal you know hoist one or more of the big trophies the signing of declan rice is going to be a massive part of that as as a player we we've said the v word quite a lot in terms of the era but it actually as a signing as a piece of transfer business it reminds me of when we signed soul campbell and it was like whoa okay now we're serious this is like this is the level raiser of like a big england international who's come to our club and it it feels very very it feels like a very very pivotal signing in the in this quote-unquote project yeah yeah it does by the way michael agreed with you uh i'm talking about Rice and whether he's one of the best in the world.

40:08For me, yes. And then he does the McKell thing, right? For me, the ones that we have are the best, which, you know, he's getting the whole group in there. But he said what you said, Declan is constantly adding things to his game. He's constantly adding things to his role in the team. I don't see where he can stop because he can still improve in a lot of areas and he wants to improve. He's such a pivotal player for us. And I love that. Giving him the praise he deserves, but pushing him to continue to do more. Declan Rice got a new chant to the tune of That's the Way I Like It, by the way. And I'm happy about that.

40:34I haven't loved that his chant just stayed. We got him half price. I get it. It's fun. But I like one that's just a little bit more about him. And Rice himself said he liked that chant. So nice to have that one. I want to talk about Victor Jokras, the left-hand side, some substitutions for the better and the not-so-better, and, of course, preview the Liverpool game. So that's still stuff I want to do before I make sure that everybody knows which brands are going to impact their life. Do you want to add on Declan Rice's Ballon d 'Or winning campaign?

41:05Elliot:I think Arteta called him a lighthouse player, didn't he? Yeah. When he first signed him. Yep. And I think, I remember many years ago, me and James did a thing with Jamie Carragher and Gary Neville in the club and a little interview thing. And Carragher said, you need a Van Dyken, an Allison type signing. It was pre-Deckland Rice days. Of course, I was in full arguing mode. No, I don't. No, we don't. But actually, we probably did. and it was and it was Declan Rice and I think he's turned up at Arsenal very polite in his first year a little bit more progressive in his second year now he's in his third year and he's saying right then time for us to win simple as that it's time for us to win and I'm now going to stop being polite I'm going to take over this area of the pitch and I'm going to deliver for the team in any way I can and we're seeing the full player now and I don't think not just him there's a number of players in our club that do not want to be defined by second place medals.

42:05Elliot:And he does not want that to happen. And they're prepared to deliver, and they're focused on it. And we've got five months to go, halfway through all of our total games. And I wouldn't choose another midfield player in the world at the moment in time to play in that position. And so, yeah, 26 years of age, next England captain, what's there not to like? Yeah, I mean, nothing. Literally nothing. Literally nothing. and I do think just so we're clear I'm with Mikel I don't know if I've felt this for a very very very long time I don't know when it would have been I'd have to think about it and I don't like to do that I think right now on form as it looks to me Zubamendi Odegaard and Declan Rice is right there as the best midfield in the world or one of them you know the PSG midfield of course is sensational.

43:04They're different midfields. But I think this has everything it needs. They are all in good form right now. They are all rounding into shape and they understand their roles. Clive?

43:15Elliot:Yeah, I think that is a discussion to have, by the way. I agree with you. I do. But I think it took a while, as I think Tim alluded to earlier on, for them to find their roles in the game and to coexist together. But the second half, I thought it was the best they've been. Look at their numbers. Look what they popped up on the pitch. There's a few little things around pressing I said earlier. But when you see three of them producing numbers that they want to produce, and letting the other player go, then you say, yeah, you're starting to respect each other now, respect what the other player can do.

43:52Elliot:And what it's going to do is they're going to drive each other to do all of the jobs. You don't choose you can't do something. You've got to stand in my spot. You better do what I can do. and vice versa and i think this is the this is the future they get on that magic roundabout and they move absolutely fine but if only guards in the six you better play like one and if superman is there you better do what's required and if you get into 10 and you're arriving in the box declin rice we better score you know and this is where we're heading and this is great this is what makes us are so hard to read i think i'm not one for sticking with anything because as soon as one game comes along and someone's a bad game we're looking to the bench for that player I mean, I'd do it 0-0 in the first half and start warming up and vote, now I want to make a change.

44:31Elliot:And so let's not get fixed on it, you know, but at this moment in time, that's the best step in that second half as the three. But this could change in a moment. Yeah, yeah, I really agree that. The second half, all three of them, all three of them were brilliant. And, you know, we had the luxury of taking Rice off from Reno, which... Sorry, you took off Odegaard. Odegaard from Reno. It was the right thing to do as well. I mean, maybe we'll come and say that for the Jokaris chat, but it's the right thing to do because we need to control the game. Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on Jokaris that I want to get out so that they can be ridiculed.

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49:18Do you have a club? Said enough of that.

49:20Elliot:Indeed. Nailed it. Tim, I don't know that it's a huge talking point, especially with the other things we have to get to, but as the host of the show, I have the right to steer it in that direction, and so I'm just going to. The left-hand side. But, you know, I don't know that this was a great Martinelli game. He's been so influential off the bench for us, and he's been great in the Champions League. I'm not sure his starts in the league have been so as high caliber. But I also think it's not just the Martinelli of it. I think it's the Incappier of it too. And we really should not sleep on how important Ricardo Calafiore has been.

49:54And I think that combination there of Martinelli and Incappier felt a little one note for me, right? I think they're both sprinters, both runners on the wide areas. maybe you need the guile and the technical level of Leo if you're going to play in Capier so Capier can sprint past him and Leo can't inside or you need the interior control of Calafiore and the just all court running that he does to help Martinelli I don't know I don't have the tactical mind for that I'm sure Clive has a thought on it but it didn't really work for me and I think we've missed Calafiore I think he's a big miss so in Capier is a great luxury to have in the team don't get me wrong but I thought the left-hand side if I had to pick an area to be critical of in this game that was the part that didn't feel like it was really clicking for me yeah definitely I think um I think we attacked the the data shows we attacked an equal amount on both sides um more or less but the chances really came down one side um yep and that that tells you something and kind of the goals came down one side as well so um I think that tells you a lot I'm with you I think the mix perhaps wasn't right I think in Capier um I think we knew this about him anyways more of an overlapper and if you've got an overlapper then yeah you probably need someone who comes in off the flank a little bit more um so that you've got that relationship whereas you know if you're thinking about the five lanes it kind of felt like we had two people in that far left lane at the same time and it didn't quite go off.

51:24I also think just in terms of the balance of the front three anyway, you know, both Martinelli and Jokra, perhaps even if you'd had someone like Gabriel Jesus to come and, you know, hold the ball and have that kind of probably greater technical ability to play wall passes and things like that, that Jokra doesn't really have yet, then you might have seen something different. but you've kind of got two left-sided players running in the same lane and then you've got a striker who kind of runs away from the ball because that's his game. And so I didn't think the mix was quite there. I did think that was relatively foreseeable before the game.

52:05Actually, I think a lot of people commented on the fact that it felt like perhaps we were missing one more technician, that it felt like this would make this game a bit shoot-out-y, a bit too transitional which to be fair didn't really happen in the second half I think Arsenal did get control of it but yeah I didn't love that left side albeit I think Martinelli in the second half did come in a little bit more he wins the flick on doesn't he for for Jokeres for the second goal and he actually won quite a one a couple of flick-ons and he was almost more like a second striker with Jokeres and it was slightly better but yeah I and look in KPA as well the other thing we have to kind of acknowledge is that you've got to manage Semenyo coming the other way because Semenyo's their best player very very good player and I think it felt like Arsenal were aware of that and we're looking to manage that threat as well.

53:01Clive?

53:01Elliot:Yeah I agree that Tim took the words out of my mouth I think it's more a defensive game for him and that's all right you know and he won a lot of his duels and that's absolutely fine i i think i think it's important that these players get a start every now and again he looked razor sharp on his substitute appearances and when i saw that front three i really thought we need another baller out there then i saw ballman running around at the start and oh i can see why he's done that but this is exactly again you you heard me after villa away it was the wrong players for the start of that game and that was proven by the halftime changes that we made.

53:38Elliot:If you're going to play three sprinters in your front line, then play high energy direct football and I thought we did that, particularly in the first few minutes. The goal came against, it was unfortunate, so we couldn't really see our plan really come to fruition but I liked that we played to the players that we had. I wasn't looking for precision, I'm not going to get it with those three. I'm going to get a lot of high energy, a lot of pace and a lot of threat, a lot of pressing, a lot of pressure and that's exactly what we needed to do for this game for Bournemouth away who are really good at home it's exactly what we needed to do and so the fact that they came off on 67 minutes was it something like that perfect part of the plan now we get a couple of controllers on the pitch all three of those players that came on can trap it and keep it and get their heads up and pass a move most days yes but we'll come to Gabriel Jesus' game well yes I'm glad you I'm glad you said that actually because that wasn't great alright so So that's a far bigger issue than the Martinelli one, if you ask me.

54:37Elliot:And so, yeah, I'm really comfortable with whatever we decide to do, as long as we play to that plan. And we're playing to the opposition what they can do to us. And I think it's a defensive game for Martinelli, and I'll give him a hat tip for what he did on the day. Yeah. Okay, well, let's talk about Vitrio Crest then. and this is a tough one because I liked this Victor Yocres performance and I don't think that's going to be a popular opinion. I think what has to happen is you have to start to evaluate a player, update how a player is contributing to your team and then evaluate them based on that updated understanding rather than what you hoped they would be.

55:21At this point, I am prepared to say Victor Yocres isn't scoring 20 goals for us this season. I am further prepared to say he's probably not an elite striker at the Premier League level. I'm prepared to re-underwrite my evaluation of the player at that level. So now the question is, can Victor Yorchrist be an important contributory part of a successful Arsenal team? And that's where I think I am prepared to say he can do that. And I think he did do that in this game. and I think you know it's interesting because for the goal there's some screenshots going around for the goal that Rice's first goal the goal he scores it's some good hold up play from Jokras and when Odegaard slides it to Rice there are five defenders around Victor Jokras I realize it's become a bit of a meme almost being like he occupies defenders he does some hard direct running but you know what he does and in recent games I've noticed I think we look more threatening and better when he's on than when he's off.

56:23I do think there is something to be said about the way this guy runs and runs some more and runs some more. And when balls are bouncing around the box, the defenders are worried about him. He is up for the challenge. And no, he doesn't burst past them the way I hoped he would. He's not getting the space to get his shots off. And so that is why I'm prepared to say I don't think he can be an elite striker at the Premier League level. But I think that running and that physicality drops the center backs deeper. I think it gets us higher up the pitch. I think it helps us keep teams pinned back more and makes their press less effective and our press more effective when the ball turns over.

56:59We're getting more high turnovers now, by the way, which are leading to chances. And for the first Rice goal, he's important. So Clive, you could call it damning with faint praise, but if we're prepared to rethink who this player is and maybe moderate our expectations, I think it's possible that opinion of him may have swung too far in terms of his usefulness. I thought he played an important role in this performance and this win.

57:24Elliot:Yeah, and I agree with you, Elliot. I think if I'm looking at him, I'm just thinking, mate, just be who you are. Seriously, be that big, running, bullish forward. You know that guy online, Pythagoras in boots? He called him Jim Body or Jim Bunny center forwards. He sort of compared Jokeres and De Lapp. I'd probably get Robbie in there as well, right? The Sundan forward. hard running muscular forwards just smash the ball hard and smash people hard. Be that guy. We don't have that guy in our squad. So be that guy. Where we get frustrated is if he's getting pushed around but the fact if he keeps going and he's more relentless in his running and I think he'd be more relentless in his running.

58:07Elliot:I think it's really important. I think it's very important to our direction and the only period of the game I was worried in was the period when he came off and the gap between Mourinho coming on and I think the manager learned I've got to have one of Marino, Jokeres, Havertz on this pitch you know to make sure that we if we want to go around the corner ugly we can go in the corner to a target our goalkeeper can hit a target we can get up the pitch because people are stepping on to us in this game we lost our center forward when he came Jesus came on and done one of his I'm going to jump into the ground and you decide where I'm going to pop up from games and um and And it's not always where the team needs him.

58:48Elliot:You know, sometimes on the left wing, really wide. No, no, no, we need to find you. We really need to find you. We're away from home. We're 3-2. We need to bounce the ball off you. I don't care if you come to the tip of the diamond really low. I don't really care. But we need your ability on the ball to have touches. And so, your career's for me. I thought he'd have a few more YouTube goals in my mind. But I never had him as our main centre forward anyway. I just want to see him be who he is. Be really strong. hard running and affect the opposition. He's doing that. I think he can do it better.

59:21Elliot:And that's step one. Very, I don't know if he caught the interview, he's very decrimized on the arsehole.com channel afterwards. And he spoke about Jokerez. And I've not really heard a player talk about him like this. You want me to give you the quotes? Yeah, go ahead, mate. He said, it's tough for him because he's got two defenders on him all game, all over him. So he has to use his strength. He has to do all he can to help the team. And with that goal, without making that run from Gabby's flick and holding it, setting it off to Martin, that goal wouldn't happen. That was a pivotal moment in the game for us to turn the game on its head.

59:51I see how hard he hits a ball, and when that space arrives for him, the ball's arriving at his feet to score goals. He will 100 % score. But at the minute, defenders in the Premier League want to be able to stop Victor Jokras because he's one of the best strikers in the world. Trust me, he's doing unbelievably for us. We wouldn't be where we are without him.

1:00:05Elliot:Yeah, well said by him. A player taking responsibility, that's what a great leader is, isn't it? He took responsibility. If you look at our three goals in this game, two of them we've seen many times before a ball bouncing in the box we smash it in and the Odegaard to Bukai Osaka who pretends he's sleeping and sprints off the mark and cut back goal we've seen that before that first goal sorry the one with the first Rice goal basically that doesn't happen in 2025 it only happens this year because we didn't have the ability to do that last year and so that's a goal for the modern Arsenal with Martinelli right in off the side next to the centre forward, us going down the centre of the gut like an arrow down the middle and then getting it into areas where we can do things from.

1:00:52Elliot:I think that's a goal this team against unsettled defences and prepared to give the ball away to get it back. I think that's a very new Arsenal goal and he's part of that and I think we need it all, don't we? We need it all. We can't just have the Saka, Rice, Odegaard, Triumvir. That will eventually be stopped. But if we've got a player in there that's causing problems and keeping people away. I think J.Z. has collapsed the box on one of the goals as well. It's very important that we look at it as a group, and that's what we are doing. There's five defenders around him for the first Rice goal.

1:01:25For the Gabby goal, where's he standing? On the goal line. And I mean, whether you think his movement is a lead or not, there's so many things we can pick apart and say it's not as good as we hoped. But I do think in the Premier League, if you don't collapse defenders, if everybody wants to run to the penalty spot, if everybody wants to stand at the D, you can't create the space for shots you can't create the openings for cutbacks there was a game a couple games ago I'm going to get wrong which one it is I don't remember but everybody was mad at Saka because he didn't slide it across to Yokores he pardon me mad at timber for not sliding it across to Yokores he gave it back to Saka and Saka has a shot that by his standards he should score it's an empty net he slides it with his right instead of just taking the extra touch to his left and roofing it.

1:02:06But the reason Saka's in acres of space is Yokoz has run hard to the back post and brought defenders with him. So like I said, there are going to be some people hearing this and saying, my God, you've really lowered the bar. I want to be clear. I have lowered the bar. Yes. I think I've had to rethink what he can really give us, but that doesn't mean he can't give us important things that make us better. And for me, Tim, he is doing that. And there will be some goals along the way. I have no doubt there won't be as many as maybe I hoped. I don't think you can rule out the contributions he's making just because you're not getting the goal involvements you were hoping for.

1:02:48Yeah, I think there's a few things here. I think I was trying to think of like some comparisons and the first place my mind went was actually Stéphane Givache up front for France in the 98 World Cup. who was maybe like a bit of a battering ram and then a young Thierry Henry, Yuri Yorkayev, Zinedine Zidane all did the business behind him type thing. You know, almost like, I guess, like a blocker really. And then I started thinking of Giroud in the French national team as well, 20 years later doing much the same thing so that Griezmann and Mbappe and Kingsley Coman and players like that behind him could do their thing.

1:03:29um so that i think i think you're right in terms of i mean you described it as i guess kind of underwriting your expectations a bit i i think i always well i say always but kind of long had some doubts but ultimately the bottom line is this guy's going to have to play a lot because he's the only one who's fit enough to start games and do what he does for 65 70 minutes Gabriel Jesus cannot do that yet Kai Havertz hopefully coming back soon he might not be able to do that this season he's going to be he's going to have been out for nearly a year we've got to be realistic about what he's capable of so these are two other strikers who we might only really be able to use in cameo so like this guy is fit enough to start he is he seems at least happy enough to take a lot of physical punishment and he takes a lot of physical punishment and referees allow a lot of physical punishment on him.

1:04:29I imagine, I don't know, he played in the championship to be fair. I was going to say, I imagine before he came here, he kind of thought, I thought tackles around the neck weren't legal, but it seems like they are. But again, he played in the championship, so I'm sure he's used to that enough. And the way he fights for that kind of rice goal as well, where he's being fouled, but he knows he's not going to get the foul if he goes down so he just keeps barreling through and look i i completely understand the squinting to see it you know um and all of that but like if he can be a barrel for us that's that's still that's still actually a very useful job i think also the other thing that's clear is he seems so far to be a lot more i say a lot more useful he he's more useful in away games than home games so far home games i don't see him away games where you know the referee lets the crowd referee the game and center backs can get away with a bit more and all of that he kind of he absorbs a lot of punishment basically is one of the one of the things he does and i i kind of think that maybe he's when i say accepted that role you know that he's he's kind of getting used to that role being a bit of a sponge to absorb absorb absorb some physical punishment take some defenders away you know be a bit of a decoy yeah ideally you probably don't want to pay 65 million pounds for a 27 year old to do that but ultimately arsenal are trying to win the league and the the the kind of alternative was to pay more for sesco and i'm not sure we'd get a lot more or just completely submit to Marino being a center forward because the bottom line is this season, at the beginning of this season, the first half of this season, Jesus and Haberts were not going to be able to do this.

1:06:29So, yeah. And that's interesting because it does come down to profiles. If Mikel and Berta agreed, we need someone who threatens back lines with hard running, who collapsed defenders, who has real nine instincts. That wasn't Eketike, okay? that was Neketike that was Jokeres and that was Sesko those were the guys out there that do that even Ollie Watkins like who I like and I think you still could make the argument that there was a real reason to do that if this was the profile we wanted it was Sesko and Jokeres and I've watched a decent amount of Sesko when he's played he does not look ready for the level at all he looks very lost and I'm not saying Jokeres has been an amazing performer but I think in terms of understanding his role and where to be he's looked like he understands the assignment.

1:07:15And, you know, it is one of those situations where I'm not sure there was a striker we could go get in the summer. I mean, everybody said, well, Izak's the obvious sure thing. Well, how'd that work out? So I don't know that there was a sure thing, but I think this guy in this role is doing some things that are helping us. And if you want to say that's damning with faint praise, I hear you. But for me, Clive, it is an Arsenal team that is six points clear at the top and top of the Champions League. And you know what ability he has? Availability. Because before you tell me how good Jesus is or Kai is, Gabriel Jesus has missed the better part of two seasons.

1:07:48Kai Havertz hasn't played in a year, and he's got a little bit of a knock now again, so he was out of the squad. The fact that this guy has appeared in 18 of our 20 Premier League games, started 15 of them, and we're where we are after 20 games, you can't completely write off his role in that being the case, you know?

1:08:06Elliot:Yeah, I'm not sure how many of the Champions League games he's tied, but a fair few of those, although he missed a couple with injury. I think he's critical to what we're trying to do and he's critical to the change by how I watch this team attack. It makes us look different and more exciting. And whether he's always the most exciting, that's up for debate. but I think it's important that I think we're learning how to use him and Sesko for example when he was playing at RB Leipzig towards the end he was playing in a front two he's had better moments Manchester United when he had somebody next to him I think Jokic's best moments have come when someone's been next to him his best moment in this game came when Martinelli was next to him his best parts of the season came when Eze was right next to him right next to him and I think we just have to find a way to assimilate players from outside the league.

1:08:56Elliot:In the old school Arsenal, we have our wingers on the chalk and we have our centre-forward dropping into a false nine position, creating an inside diamond potentially. And then we want to be in the box and be a centre-forward. We've got one player that can do that. He hasn't played for a year. And he can do everything in Kyiv Havertz, right? But he hasn't played for a year and he can't finish chances. Jesus has not been fit. So we got somebody else in. And I think he's different enough for us to have the right squad. And that's important. He's different enough and he's available enough. So, hey, look, I'm right behind him.

1:09:30Elliot:I'm not dumb. I can see that his feet look heavy on occasions, but the manager takes him off. And it's great, isn't it? He takes him off because he knows he's going to be in for the next game. And so that's important. We don't thrash him like we were doing before because we had literally nobody. You know, so he takes him off and he plays his role and we get someone else on. And back to my Cole York, Solskjaer, Sheingham scenario. You've got to beat us twice. And that's where we are right now. And now it's us. I think it's great. Yep. And then, you know, it can't be fun if you're Bournemouth, for example, and you're like, oh, they're taking off their front three and bringing on Leo, Saka, and Jesus.

1:10:05I mean, it's just an incredible embarrassment of riches in some ways. And, of course, those three come on, and we get the goal that should have made it safe. The Odegaard pass to Saka is sensational. Saka's burst is great. He has really intelligent hesitation. His pass back to Rice is the perfect weight, so Rice can stride onto it and hit it cleanly. The keeper had to come. I mean, it's just perfect. And it was a little bit redolent of the days when it was white Odegaard and Saka on the right and those triangles were working. It's just that understanding. And if Odegaard and Saka start to develop that understanding again, goals are surely going to follow.

1:10:41It wasn't the best cameo for Jesus, as I mentioned. I don't think it warrants a discussion. He just, he gave the ball with, I mean, the funny thing is I may be over, over indexing in my mind the two times he had the chance to keep the ball in the corner and just gave it away cheaply. And so that may be frustrating me more than that.

1:10:56Elliot:He was rugby tackled on one of them though, wasn't he? Yeah, well, he had his leg literally pulled and I guess no foul. It was a very weird refereeing performance across the board, which is the case with this guy because he's just not very good. I do think their goal is worth a quick question, Tim. I have to admit, in real time, when I see it hit the middle of the back of the net, I thought maybe Raya, I'd like you to do better on that. You mean in terms of most? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, most of the time, I'd like a keeper to do better when that's where the ball ends. Most people have said they don't agree with that, and most people are probably right.

1:11:32What I do know is, Kruppi should not be standing in that position unmarked by anybody. It's a miss. It is way, way, way too easy for him to turn and have the entire goal to line up and the time to take the shot. So do you have any quick diagnosis on that goal? Because if you don't want to blame the keeper, which I think I've come around to I think you can blame the team because okay nine times out of ten that shot doesn't go in from there but Premier League players it turns out are pretty talented and if you give them completely unmarked unpressurized shots from that range that's what they can do and he did it by the way Liverpool learned the hard way about that but yeah I mean this is a good strike from a player who's just unmarked yeah absolutely actually Arna Slott's comments about that Harrison Reid goal the complete sidebar very interesting he said because they were setting up for a set piece and that's why there was no pressure on the ball it's actually very interesting uh sidebar but on this i i think the truth is the standards just dropped didn't they for a couple of seconds i i think if we're one goal clear that goal doesn't happen we're two goals clear i think everyone's a little bit um you know a little bit uh d-mob happy should we say zubamendi is a little bit too deep not really on it in the way that he he usually would be Odegaard sees him run off the shoulder again if that was a one goal lead I don't think that would happen and it's probably you know in hindsight now we've got through and won the game and actually managed the game after that brilliantly it's probably just another thing for me it's just another little kind of thread for Arteta to tug on and say no like don't do that don't do that two goals down look at the you know the stress you created by doing that um you know keep your standards high and sometimes that's probably useful for a manager at a safe distance it is a really good hit my completely baseless prediction is that um Krupy will be someone who will go for a lot of money in a year or two he's come from not Strasbourg uh Lorient who basically that what they're doing is really interesting they're kind of gaming the market by producing wingers and they're focusing on producing wingers because they know they're the most expensive players it's really really interesting and he's another one from lorion and my completely baseless prediction is that he'll go to a big six club for like tens of millions of pounds in 18 months or so we know he wasn't from strasburg because he'd be at chelsea um so i think we can just about wrap it up on this game except to say I was a huge fan of when the final whistle blew.

1:14:15It's fair to say the Bournemouth players were not. They kind of lost their rag a bit. I mean, look, it is the case that we've been victims of teams getting equalizers well past when the whistle should blow. I don't know that there is a rule that says if a team is still attacking, they just get more time even if there's no more time. And I don't know where the six minutes came from to begin with. I will say if the shoe was on the other foot, I'd be annoyed that they didn't let us serve in one more ball. But rules are rules. Do you have any issue with this? I mean, for me, it's just like, you know, I mean, obviously, no issue.

1:14:47We're glad they did it. But did you find it weird that he blew up when he did?

1:14:51Elliot:I find Chris Kavanagh weird, to be honest with me. I've not got over Declan Rice by the corner flag yet. So this referee looked poised. By the way, he did it to Zubamendi again when Zubamendi, like, just, he did a thing you always see players do, went out for a throw, he kind of kicks it off the advertiser and hoarding and it rolls, and it's multi-ball, so they're taking the other ball anyway. It rolls onto the pitch, he gave Zuby a yellow for that. Anyway, go ahead. Yeah, I think I sent a tweet out last week saying our referees, I think, are getting a bit smarter, not by ruining games. I agree.

1:15:24Elliot:I totally agree with that. I left it out there and everyone slawed me saying, Clive, be careful what you're saying. You're going to upset everybody. And then the game comes at the weekend and the camera keeps flashing on Chris Cavner's face. I'm thinking, where is that tweet? I need to leave it quick because he looks poised for action. Do you know what I mean? Really, he just looked like he wanted to do something, mate. You can see why Anthony tried it on at the end, can't you? Oh yeah, Tim, there is a time. Last season, man, that's a penalty and I've got to look at Dermot Gallagher. and everyone telling us, actually, yes, that's definitely a penalty.

1:16:00Yes.

1:16:00Elliot:It's a penalty. The referee had no choice and then Dermot Gallagher gives me the coup de grace on Monday morning. That's what last year was like. This year... Let's be fair. If you're a defender in your own box, you cannot have elbows because they could hit someone's head if they headbutt your elbow. So that should have been a penalty. This year, we don't seem to be on the end of that. Thank goodness. People are actually treating the football matches as it should be treated, as something that's precious. And we should try to keep people on the pitch for things that are just minor. And so, yeah, in this case, with the second phase.

1:16:36Elliot:I mean, probably people are too young for this, but there was a referee called Clive Thomas many years ago that stopped, that blew a World Cup game up as a corner was actually in the six-yard box. And he blew it up. How thick was that brown envelope he got the night before? That caused a national incident. It wasn't that bad, but you don't often see it. To be honest, I don't care. Just get the points, clap the fans and get yourself a kebab on the way home. Yeah. It is what it is. I will say this about referees. I have always been in the opinion that a referee who is reluctant to make a giant call is preferable to me, especially in a VAR era.

1:17:19Because if there's a giant call that should have been made, VAR will get your back. The problem is once you make a giant call, you're less likely to have it reversed. and so if you think it could be yellow or could be red it's okay to show the yellow if you think it's probably not a penalty it's okay not to give a penalty what kills a game is giving an 85 chance of a goal on something that's 50 50 or sending a man off the pitch for something that's 50 50 because at that point you've distorted the game and they're not going to re-referee it so i'm always more okay with the call that's not made than the call that is and it feels like the refs are making fewer calls this season that don't need to be made.

1:18:02And all in all, overall, I am okay with that. I prefer this way of refereeing a game because it ultimately lets the players decide the game more than the referees. They don't have to be the look at me moment. There was an NFL situation this weekend where a player got disqualified from a game for accidentally slightly bumping the shoulder of a referee. and it's one of those like he didn't have to be kicked out of the game but the referee wanted to impose his authority and so it's like why do we need that we don't need that all right we got time and we should do it it's Liverpool up next this is a right wrongs moment for us Liverpool come in not in their best moment um it turns out Mohamed Salah wasn't the problem at Liverpool which is a real shock to discover but he will not be available they may not have yugo ekatike who has a minor hamstring issue now we'll see if we'll see if slot was fibbing about that because frankly if you have a minor hamstring issue you don't get better in four days so he's he was either just fully rested for the fulham game or or he has a hamstring issue and he'll miss it uh cody gackpo obviously went full richarlison they got gut punched they're not where they want to be they still carry threat but the idea of Kerkhez going up against Bakayo Saka gives me, I think they call it, endorphins.

1:19:21Tim, I don't know what to say other than this is our home. We were sucker punched by them at Anfield. They are not the team now they were then. We were very conservative in our approach there, as were they, and so we got a very low incident game. I think this is a chance to right some wrongs, and I'm curious how you think we approach it. Yeah, definitely. it's going to be a really difficult game you're right Liverpool aren't the team they were last season perhaps but you know last season they didn't beat us last season did they? No that both games finished 2-2 and I feel like we owe them one for the home game last season definitely we really should have seen that out and won it and in fact well we finished with a really weird backline I mean we had them we had them and then all the defenders came off 2-1 we got done trying to beat them 3-1 and look that might have informed our approach as well to certain scenarios this season But yeah, definitely.

1:20:18And look, we will, again, in terms of the build-up, the narrative and all of that, we will get these, where people just can't wait and see what happens. They have to have massive, final, enormous conclusions about the league season based on the most recent result. We will be crowned champions in waiting again. And so everyone will say, oh, they should beat the slot 5-0, Liverpool rubbish, Arsenal are going to win the league and all of that. And if it's a draw or anything like that, again, we'll go back to Arsenal are bottling it and all of this and blah, blah, blah. But in terms of the approach, I mean, Liverpool have been giving up chances.

1:20:59I think there's definitely scope for us there. The thing is, Liverpool have kind of struggled with low blocks, and that's obviously not really what we're going to do. and I think that's one of the things we underestimate coming into these games as well is that we play like a, shall we say, wounded rival and you look at the type of games they're struggling in and it's not the game that you're going to give them. So I still think it's going to be a really, really difficult game. We absolutely owe them one. I think that we've made some decisions in recent games like maybe not playing Rice against Villa, you know, sitting Saka down for Bournemouth.

1:21:39We've made some decisions. they made a decision as well. Eketike didn't play at Fulham because he had, I'd never heard this before, DOMS, is it delayed onset muscle soreness or something, which I am told is a thing. It is, yeah. You can see I don't lift weights very much, so I've not come across that one very much. But, you know, they've made some decisions really as well about this game. So they're going to be up for it as well because they haven't, like Liverpool know they can't win the league but they can come and chin the team they probably think are going to win the league and lay down a little bit of a marker I think this is going to be a really difficult game I really do I think it's going to be tight I think it's going to be tense I think it's going to be a lot of pressure on us because people are just going to say we're going to go and win it easily and I don't think we will but I think Mikel will know that and yeah I haven't watched I watched them against Fulham I haven't watched enough of Liverpool's most recent games to really know at this stage where their weak spots are, what's really going wrong.

1:22:44That is reading I'm going to do in the next couple of days, though. Clive, what about you? Do you think it'll be Kerkheiser-Robertson? I kind of wonder if they'll not start Florian Verts. I just don't think he's a player who can play in a game like this. I don't think he has the physicality for it. But what do you think they'll do?

1:23:04Elliot:yeah I think like everybody else they try a few things out against other teams but against us I think we're going to see Robertson play I think we can see Joe Gomez play at right back and they're going to have their strongest most physical back line and they've got a decent set piece record from an attacking point of view they have the outswing to Van Dijk basically actually we could create a little oasis for Van Dijk to head the ball in so that's a worry but Kansas has had a bit of a tough year Curtis Jones is really pushing him inside there. Will they get stop a sign in the 10? And how they'll play, will they play ping pong out wide?

1:23:41Elliot:Gakpo's centre forward is not the worst thing in the world, by the way, if Eketike can't be there. Gakpo off the left, if Eketike is there. They're good players, right? But what I've watched when I've seen them is the intensity level is not there as it was, particularly when we had the ball in phase one of build-up. I've watched them and they're comfortable when they've got the ball and they're pushing teams back. but they do the whole horseshoe thing that we used to do but they haven't really got Martin Odegaard to think one over or to flick one in between the spaces but he's tidy in that scenario and he's quite sharp proper move but I'm not sure if he's quite enough you know so yeah I think we can outwork them out intent them we got a day extra's rest they're coming away to us again I think this is a chance but I don't I think Tim's right I think if you watch them a couple of times over the Christmas holidays you'll think we're going to smash them but it doesn't work like that honestly it doesn't work like that I think it's going to be a really hard game I think we'll edge it and I think if we do the belief will go to another level as it did when when Enzo scored in the last minute it went up a notch then do you see what I mean if we win this game it'll go up a notch again you know and so I think it's an important day for us but I do think our home form with really, really good touchwood.

1:25:03Elliot:It's really, really good. The Emirates will be hot. There'll be a lot of dry January being broken already, week one. It'll be hot. And I think it needs to be hot because I think it's going to be a really tough one. But I think we're more than the match for them. And if we execute, we will be fine. Any surprises from us, Clive? Or will we go with what I think is now the established first choice 11, you know leo victor and and sack up front the midfield three the back four with in cap yes and cal fiore won't be fit yeah i i think so that makes that makes perfect sense and again it's about how you use the bench and then once you get past this game we go into a a set of games where the squad's going to be used and i think planning is important and i it's something i spoke about before but i spoke about it for a negative basis i think when you have this amount players fit what you have to do as a manager is really make change easy and so it's all about your pairings and your groups and your units within units you don't just make a change against asana villa we we played form players in the wrong plates apart to the pitch you know we played marino who was on top form we played ese who was in decent form and played him in the wrong part of the pitch so we sort of picked players not for the game plan in the last game i thought we did it really, really well.

1:26:24Elliot:I think going forward, if we can make sure we look at the units within the units and say, okay, this player's better paired this player, this is our better double pivot, I think it's important we do that. So that framework for change is really key so we don't spend time adjusting to how we play. We don't see middle of pitches vacated because we want to make sure that not just four or five, we're talking about the 10 new players getting on the pitch and we want them all to succeed. So how do I position them to succeed with a partner or a three and with an area and a role which suits them? I think this is the challenge for the manager now.

1:27:01Elliot:We've got huge games coming up in different competitions, different qualities, different levels. We don't want to waste time adjusting. And in the Palace game, was it the Palace game we made in the League Cup? We made eight changes in that game. And it was smooth, wasn't it? Look how smooth it was and how good we played. I think that's a real worry for the rest of the league. So if we do that again, I think we'll be fine. Yeah, it's interesting because one thing we know they have, by the way, is a supreme talent in Dominic Soboslai. Obviously, the reason we didn't get points at Anfield. I look at the junior Kruppi goal.

1:27:40What you can't do, McAllister's not playing that well this season, Soboslai is, you can't let either of those guys have that kind of room at the top of the box. I mean, that is one thing that will cost us. I don't know that their wide players are in the kind of form right now that is particularly scary. From a center forward standpoint, I assume it'll be Gakpo if Eketike is not fit. Again, I think our back four can handle those players. You cannot afford to let McAllister and Sobisla shoot from 20 yards out, 22, 23 yards out unmarked. So that will have to be something we tighten up on. They've really, really struggled with just long straight balls up the pitch into the wide areas.

1:28:17and so it's a game for runners you know I think obviously Kanate's been very very poor this season I don't think they'll go with Karakas I assume it'll be Robertson but maybe they will go Karakas and if that's the case I just think that's a disaster for them and on that side especially if they try to play Verts off the left which they've done if it's Verts and Karakas up that side versus Timber and Saka that feels like a massive massive mismatch So they have some really difficult decisions to make. The way I look at it is you obviously have to be careful about this team. I mean, as bad as it feels like they've been, and it feels like they've been very bad, you look at it and they're sitting there in fourth.

1:29:01They're unbeaten in six or seven, aren't they? Something like that. I think they're unbeaten since they dropped Salah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, to be fair though, a draw to Fulham, a draw to Leeds. They snuck past Wolves, snuck past Burks. It's not a good unbeaten run, but it's an unbeaten run. Drew to Leeds again, drew to Sunderland. I mean, they're not exactly pulling up trees. The interesting thing though is just, this is a team that I think everybody expected goals would not be an issue for them. And right now, especially without Eketike, they don't have a ton of goals in the team. My instinct is that we could do something really special here.

1:29:42The Emirates has been a fortress for us. The key for me is very simple. No gifts. No gifts. No bad mistakes. No Raya passes it straight to Gakpo. No Gabby mistakes. Nothing that gifts them something because I do think that we have shown we are a team that plays very, very well with the first goal, but that that goal is quite important. Now, I know we came back against Bournemouth this weekend, but it is also nice that we go Saturday, Thursday. So if he wants to go back with any players, I don't think he has any kind of fatigue issues. We have one more day of rest than they do. We're coming off an uplifting win.

1:30:23They're coming off a gut punch draw. So it all sets up. Well, Tim, any sort of final thoughts on an expectation that maybe we haven't covered? Yeah, no, I think the home crowd is obviously going to be really important. And yeah, like you said, no mistakes, but kind of when I say take it to them, I don't mean like gung-ho attack, but impose ourselves. That's what I really want to see. I really want to, you know, I really considered for quite a while these Liverpool games as a bit of a benchmark. You know, like a couple of seasons ago, it was just before Christmas, we went to Anfield and we got a 1-1 draw.

1:30:58And I was thinking, yeah, this is like this, we're coming here. You know, this is like, this is the team I kind of set ourselves against because they're the ones that have challenged City and have done it on a similar budget and a similar way and et cetera, et cetera. Now I want to see we've gone past them. That's what I really want to see. I want to see us say, it's not you. Well, maybe it'll be us two next year or whatever if you sort yourselves out. But we're, you know, we've kind of taken your place there and we're at home. and it's not going to be like Anfield in August where we dance around each other for 12 rounds and wait and see who wins on points and all of that.

1:31:40If that game had come a month later, I don't think we'd do that either. I just think the two teams didn't know enough about one another at that point, but we know that now and we're at home. I just really liked it. It's not going to be easy and there will be swings in momentum and stuff like that. I think Gakpo is such a dangerous player for them. I watched their Fulham game. He was the one that was clearly going to do something, I think. Him and Soboslai. I mean, if you keep them quiet, I think you're in good shape. Soboslai, they keep moving him around, and it's because they kind of need four of him, really, in terms of a glue that holds this team together.

1:32:19So it's not going to be easy. I'm not saying we must go out and dominate every second of the game and win 5-0, but I want to see us impose ourselves. and kind of say, we're top, we're here to take this. Clive?

1:32:35Elliot:Yeah, Tim's got me fired up now, right? So I think it's, someone sent me a team talk of Pep today after when I think City got knocked out by I think Southampton League Cup a couple of years ago in their treble season. And he spoke about players' hunger and he spoke about consistency. And I think when I heard that interview, I thought, yeah, we've got to retain our hunger, and we've got to retain it. And if you'll think about a Liverpool game, just remember, walking around the pitch after the Everton game a couple of years ago when we lost the league by two points, remember how that felt, and say to yourself, we don't even walk around the pitch this year.

1:33:15Elliot:Clapping the fans politely, say, sorry, we're coming back next year. So don't play with full bellies. Play with Hungary. If we play Hungary, this team hasn't got a chance. We have to be hungrier than they've got. medals van dyke's got the full set mate including european cup we haven't got ours so we can't let them stroll into our manor and say yeah we we want it more than you that's step one we've got to maintain that hunger for the whole season and fans as well all of us pretend we're absolutely starving and then go and and then go and take them that hunger was there to start the season for make no mistake i felt we got a little bit version 1.0 for a period around walls and villa and now that verticality is back and that hunger's back that ability to want to fix mistakes is back and our stability is back if we bring all of that to the show they don't stand a chance and you know i know you mentioned this already but it is fa cup um at the weekend and then it's League Cup midweek.

1:34:25So we can really empty the tank here, right? There's no need to think about who's going to be borderline for the weekend or anything like that. Can really empty the tank and do whatever you need to do to get the result we need. I think we can get it. I think we're stronger in all phases. You just play with excitement to prove that versus any anxiety around what they can do. And there's going to be a fan display before the game. The temperature should be hot in the Emirates, which has been a place that we have not lost this season. The results have been good. So we just need to keep it going and right some wrongs.

1:35:06But it could feel like a very big symbolic moment, if not a big moment in the table as well, if we can get this result. I think we can. So we'll leave it there. Main pod won't be till Friday because we're playing Thursday. it'd be silly to do the main pod on Thursday. So we will do the main pod on Friday, which means we'll have some patron stuff for you the next couple of days. We're going to have an interview with Rob Holding that's already recorded and in the can. So you'll be hearing a Rob Holding interview. We've got a new interview series for patrons coming out, basically. It's a series we're going to do with some fun interviews.

1:35:35We've got some really, really good interviews lined up. Rob Holding sat down and gave an interview. So I think you'll like that. That's coming for patrons, as well as some other fun stuff. So if you want to go, rice50 is the code. You can get over there for a couple of quid. You can check it out and see what you think. you obviously have the instant reaction on Thursday as well and you can listen to the Schadenfreude pod we did yesterday that Clive was kind enough to join. So big, big week ahead. Big, big year ahead for us. 2026, it does feel like a good year to win the quad, I think. So that's what we now just got to go and do.

1:36:04Elliot:That's why I joined the pod yesterday with Tim for that sort of chat. Thank you very much. Clive, quad you very much. Tim, quad you? My pleasure as always. My name is Elliot Smith. We quad you, and we will quad you after Arsenal 10, Liverpool 2.

1:36:44Hey, I'm Josh Spiegel, host of the podcast Lunatic in the Newsroom. If you enjoy journalism that drifts into mild panic, wild overthinking and a guaranteed nervous breakdown, Lunatic in the Newsroom is for you. It's news like you've never heard before. The only newsroom with a panic button. You'll laugh, you'll cry, and gasp in horror as the show spirals completely out of control. It's not just news, it's emotionally unstable. Lunatic in the Newsroom. Listen today.