Attack Looks Good, Despite Goal Drought, in League Cup Progression

27:31Yeah, I mean, well, I do want to stay on Martinelli with you, Tim. I'll just say this about Jesus. When you have an idea of a player in your head and then they deliver a different kind of performance, that can create a lot of cognitive dissonance. and what's interesting about this Jesus performance, in my head, a Jesus performance is he's dropping into midfield and he's combining and he's dribbling his way past players, right? And he's on the ball all over the place, but he's not an end product guy. And what's so weird about this is he had eight passes. He completed no dribbles, but he had five shots and could have had two goals.

28:03He's unlucky not to score. It's almost a more Yoka-esque performance than it is a Jesus performance. You know what I mean? And I think that, but that's a positive. I don't mean that just so we're clear. I mean that as a positive. He was in the goal scoring positions. He was taking shots. But when he needed to combine, I mean, three minutes into the game, it's Jesus to Martinelli to Nani and plays Nani through and Nani just hits it too close to the keeper. And I think it was sort of emblematic of the day Nani had where he did so many things really well, but he didn't get the goal. But Tim, you know, there's the internet meme of, please, he has a family.

28:40and that was kind of the sense that I had for Canvo out there and I want to be careful not to be too severe in my ridicule because he is a 19-year-old kid trying to make his way in the game but he got pretty embarrassed, I think, under the lights at the Emirates and obviously there was the one moment where Nelly just completely sat him down and that wasn't a great look. What I liked about this Martinelli performance, first of all, I think he's always had this. When he knows he's up against an inferior player and he feels he can beat him, he just the the extent to which he puts the pedal down is significant he really knows he can do it and he does it again and again and again and credit to arsenal you know clive has always said find the dope again with all due respect the dope was canvo and the team didn't screw around we would get the ball to martinelli and martinelli would beat him and things would flow from there and you want that you want the team to be able to feed the player who's in a position to cause the most damage the thing that was really encouraging i thought about martinelli in this game was the right-footed crosses.

29:35They were so good. We recently saw him score a great right-footed goal when he cut inside. I do think his game had been too oriented lately around getting to the byline and winning corners and not beating men. When he did get to the byline in this game, granted, he was able to get past his man then too. But I love what he's doing when he's getting the ball on his right foot. And if he does that more, I think he can create more danger. How did you connect to this Martinelli performance? Well, I'll just throw this in as a capper because I always do this. I'm so bummed he had that knee-on-knee contact and couldn't continue because I was curious to see when Klein came in could Martinelli continue that level of performance against a higher level of opposition right so we could measure the performance versus Campbell versus Klein but obviously he was just not in good shape to continue after the knee-on-knee contact so that's a shame but what would you make of that yeah I think there's a statement in the obvious that he's such a confidence player I think and I think you're right like the first time he beats like basically this is almost certainly not true and quite reductive but it kind of feels like he takes that fall back on the first time and if if he beats him you know you know you're going to see that three or four more times if he doesn't it feels like he shrinks a little bit um because the thing is he does actually have like a real variety of movements as well like in terms of going inside and outside he's very very good with the ball in tight spaces um tap the mug he's got that futsal thing going on where like his close ball control and rolling his studs over the ball and and stuff like that and when he's confident and he's doing that he looks so so good as he did in this game it reminded me of that game against who was we played a spanish team two seasons ago in the champions league if you can't remember it we won't remember it so don't ask me

31:25Elliot:I was stunned. I couldn't even think because Tim was literally asking the question. Mate, let's get to our roles, right? You answer our question. It was severe. It was severe we played at the Emirates. I'll take your word for it. He just absolutely roasted the right back alive. It doesn't feel like you get many average Martinelli games. It does feel like you get, oh, wow, this is the player here. and then it's, oh, actually, he doesn't look so great today. And I guess that's just the type of player he is because he's a take-on player. With you as well on the right foot crossing, I still don't think he's ever quite sorted out that, you know, swinging the standing leg from the touchline on his left foot.

32:11I think there's a reason that we've been curious about Madueke on the left. Perhaps, like, if we like that drive to the byline, having someone who's on their natural side makes a fair bit of sense. but yeah he was incredible in this game and the challenge for him like and I'm sure the coaching staff do work on this with him it's like listen if in the next game the first time you take on the fullback they get you don't worry about it keep going keep going keep going because you've only got to do it two or three times if you fail ten times like it feels like in some respect he has a slightly difficult position in the team because he's often getting doubled up on he stays quite wide it's not a hugely advantageous position at the same time I feel like he's the one in the team who probably has the most liberty to lose the ball where it's like I think Mikel would accept if you do 10 dribbles on the fullback today and you get through three times I'll kind of take it you know so it feels like he's got license to be a little less efficient perhaps and that he possibly maybe I've read that wrong and he doesn't but like it feels like he doesn't always take that license if you know what I mean Clive anything to add there I just thought he he lit

33:33Elliot:up the first half after about 10 minutes because I think Maddowekha in the first phase of the game but as soon as he realized he could do a bit he really did it and he couldn't wait for the ball to come, mate. But I will say, these crosses were superb. I thought our crosses and set pieces were brilliant. I was sitting there thinking, Big Gapit was here, I think he gets a hat-trick. You know, and honestly, some of the quality was good. I thought Palace defended really well in those areas. I will give Canva a bit of a shout-out, because I did have a little look at him before he went to Palace, and he's not really a right wing-back, he's a centre-back, and they've got movement in that area with Gay potentially going.

34:15Elliot:I think that's a very important night for him. He's been exposed as a big lump, six foot two in wide areas by a sprinty Brazilian who found his form at home, away for him but at home. But don't think it's over for him. He's going to be a decent back three centre back and I think he's going to be fine. He just got his knickers in a twist when Martinelli turned him around. Tim? Yeah, it should be said from Palace's point of view, they've lost their right-hand side, which is their best side. Munoz and Saar. I think Saar was going to Acon anyway, and I think he might have got injured. But the combination of those two is dynamite, and they've lost both of them.

34:53So they had to rest Nathaniel Klein, because he's the backup. He's 34. They cannot afford to lose him. And even with him in the team, they've lost a lot of punch down that side. So if they'd had either one of those players, I think that side would have been a very different proposition for us.

35:09Elliot:I took the words out of my mouth. And I think that's where the League Cup, that's where the change was in the League Cup. And we could have gone out there with, say, Amali Salmon, 16, and he could have had suffered a big night like that. And we wouldn't write him off, would we? We would just say, it's one of those nights he got caught out, blah, blah, blah. He's a centre-black playing right back. And he come up against Tyreek Mitchell and he ripped him around. So the most important thing from my perspective is Martin nearly found himself again. So now I'm going to stop selling them in my mind quietly and think, but I do think as a club, I can't get away from the fact.

35:47Elliot:Goals win trophies, mate, and I want to know what's happening there. And that's to me the only discussion. It's not a great stat, but Arsenal players have scored zero goals from 6.16 expected goals in the last three games, excluding penalties. Zero goals from 6.16. I mean, given the overperformance we've traditionally provided, that could be eight goals in the last three games. It's zero Arsenal goals scored. The good thing is, as we know from data, it always regresses, always reverts to the mean. That's the good news. So that means, A, Aston Villa, you're fucked. And B, we're going to absolutely batter the shit out of Brighton.

36:28Those are the only possible explanations because otherwise the game would have to be played and we couldn't just look at it on our spreadsheets. I'm kidding. Relax. One last quick thing here before we talk some brands and then get into second half and penalties and whatnot. You know, I find so many examples of times when I think I understand what a player is and then I don't understand it and I have it and then I lose it again or what the dynamics are. I said it earlier, Tim, but this game was very interesting, especially in the first half, because we almost didn't need a midfield with Cal Fiore and Saliba so able to bring the ball forward and do the first phase of our buildup.

37:11I'm not sure what Eza and Marino's role was, but it's interesting. I said this on the Instagram action, Paul laughed at me, and now I'm going to say it on the main pod so everyone can laugh at me. I think of Eza and Marino as the same player in one respect. they are midfielders who for every yard closer they get to the goal, they become more dangerous and more impactful. And every yard further away they get from the goal, I feel that they create a potential liability or aren't as clean and consistent in their performance as you might like them to be. And that is a really interesting dynamic. So first of all, we don't have to go deep in it.

37:49I think it's a great game for Norgaard. It's the first time he's really been trusted to play a significant amount in midfield. He did it well. I think this was Norgard showing his pride and his professionalism to say, I'm not just here to put cones out and be a teacher's pet, a manager's helper. I'm not just here to play defense in a Champions League tie that we feel we're heavy favorites in. I think Mikel Arteta showing the confidence in Norgard, by the way, to play him in defense in the Champions League, away from home, in a game we did need points from to lock up our position in that table, shows how much trust he has in the professionalism and the quality of that guy.

38:26And then he did it again in midfield, and I thought he was really good. So the midfield dynamic, super interesting. I think a return to the conversation for Norgaard and just a further, for me, lack of clarity on what I think Marino and Eze are in terms of how they drive this team. So what do you make of the midfield dynamic over off? A really interesting game there. Yeah, it's not one I'd like to see in a more serious game, to be honest for because i think you're right about ezra and marino they're low touch end product players really but marino does a bit more i think off ball but they're not really like they're not build-up players do you know what i mean like it feels like you know and i guess some of this is a symptom of what we did in the everton game right where we played all the ball players and then you want to rotate the team and all of a sudden no none of the ball players um are there and that probably contributed to why we went wide so often.

39:21You probably don't really want to build through Merino or Eze. You kind of want them on the end of things as much as anything. And to be fair, that probably suited Norgard as well because that really defined his role where it's like, you've got two 10s ahead of you. You've got two guys who, you know, could be number nines. I don't want to reignite that Eze as a nine argument, which, to be honest, Elliot, I'm kind of on your side. on that um but but you know you you've got two midfielders there who are regularly part of our front three and so for nor guard we're not asking him to be rice we're not asking him to be zubemendi we're not asking for interchange and the things that he's probably not as good at and that he doesn't have the understanding with the other players to do it's like you've got two tens ahead of you so you you go and be nor guard and you go and be the lone six who wins the ball back and then just passes it sideways to someone else.

40:19And I don't want to do him down with that. That's the player he is. That's the player we bought. So presumably that's the player we want. And this setup suited him, I think. I don't think it suited Ezra and Marino to be together like that. I think ideally you want a higher touch player kind of between Norgaard and one of those players. You want a Reiss or an Odegaard there really to get the best from those players. But it's a League Cup game where you don't always prioritize your balance. What balances you the best, you prioritize resting and rotating and giving guys minutes. And that's probably another area where maybe Ethan can be a little bit disappointed.

41:03But then again, is he a high-touch player? I don't know that he is at this stage. Yeah, Clive, what about you? Really interesting midfield dynamic. I just I find myself looking at that part of the pitch because I think there's a lot of ways we can piece it together I'm still not sure exactly how but it was this was a really interesting one I can't get my head around it completely

41:25Elliot:I liked it we've changed a whole midfield isn't that crazy? and it worked it's not what we do we've never been able to do this before and so Norgard It was, you know, imagine what a number five on a dice looks like. He was in the middle of that with Sleber and Carrefour behind him and Eze and Mourinho ahead of him. And it's just like he just popped it around. And when they were all covered, he popped it to Miles. And he just popped it, popped it, popped it one touch into Mourinho and Eze. And they do everything in two touches. A little twist and a shake and it's gone, which means the ball's flowing up the pitch.

42:09Elliot:so in your mind you have a position what that player should do and you look at his touches but actually are we progressing through the pitch quickly which we were and we forced them back to complete domination 80 % possession so I actually liked him I when you watch as a it was like he's so he's so good to watch that you always feel he could do more and you you walk away thinking I want you to do more because every time you're on it my day gets better do you know what I mean? and he does something that lifts you up with like good entertaining footballers that really want to entertain the crowd too right?

42:49Elliot:so Mourinho's just so wise he creates angles on his first touch pops off second touch takes a foul buys a foul talks to the referee and he was the skipper and I loved that I really like this player I think he's I think he's light years ahead of people around him I honestly I think he is right there at the top end forcing his way into our first 11. He really is getting really, really close. He's a fantastic professional. And he can just feel the game and read the game and see what is required. And then the moment the ball turns over, he's bang there for a counter press for a tackle. He's amazing in both boxes.

43:25Elliot:Yeah, what a player he is. And Redwood just make these changes really quickly. Norgard never wants more than one. Bang, bang, get rid of it. And he's always got his eyes open. and then when he when he looks a bit leggy let's go to ground goes to ground sweeps it up makes a foul or tries to and um and just keeps it keeps it moving I really enjoyed it earlier we got 60 plus games played this year and those top boys just can't play all the time when Declan Rice came on he had rigor mortis his legs he was not due to come on he was hopping around that pitch and I swear his feet were like blocks of ice it's freezing last night and uh and it took him a while to get going and I wish he didn't have to come on But Norgal and these guys allowed this to happen.

44:08Elliot:This is going to be so important when we play Villa, when we play Liverpool, that Rice has got Petra in the tank. So I thought it was a really positive midfield. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, and I want to give kudos to Scott, who does obviously fantastic data work over on Cannon Stats. And after every match, he puts out a lot of sort of advanced metrics. And I like to look at them, not because I think advanced metrics then give me what to think about the game. and I don't think Scott would suggest that's what they're meant to do, but to just sort of check if I saw the game, if what I saw in the game and the data lines up, and then I could go back and look and say, well, why might it have not or why might it have and so on and so forth.

44:46And I think what's interesting, for example, with Ezza, who I didn't come away from the game feeling super excited about the Ezza performance. You know, I'm not going to sit here and pretend for a player that I really adore that I thought this was like absolutely a sensational performance from him. But if you look at it and you look at things like goal probability added, it's Martinelli, Meduake, and then Eza. And then if you look at the XG buildup or those kinds of things where you lead to shots being taken, it's Jesus, Timber, and Eza. And so there are things he is doing when he gets on the ball that create the potential for a goal to be scored.

45:28I just want him on the ball more. I'd like to see him on the ball more. And it is so interesting watching him go run between the lines, go run and stand in space. He finds a space. He finds a place to just be available between the lines and waiting for that moment. And what I can't decide is, is he more Emil Smith-Rowe, a guy who when he gets on the ball, he wows you, but in the other phases of play, you just say it's not intense enough. Or is he just a player that we have to learn because it's a different kind of profile and a different talent set? And if you think about it, you guys, think about this for a minute.

46:02Can you roll your mind back to August just for a second? In August, would any of us sat here on this podcast say, well, the clear number one left-wing option is Leo Troussard, 31-year Leo Troussard? No, we would not have. And I don't think we would have said it's Martinelli because Clive was desperate to ship them off. I'm kidding. I don't think we would have said it's Nani. I think a lot of us would have thought, well, that's what we brought Eza in for, to be the left-wing option. and then Odegaard got injured, and then Eze had to come into the midfield. And because of that, Leo played left wing, and 31-year-old Leo Troussard hit incredible form and made himself the first choice at that position.

46:42And that's a meritocracy, and that's sometimes how football works. You play well, and you win the shirt. But it's kind of muddied the waters, I think, on what exactly is Eze's role, and that will continue to tell its story in time. But if you ask me to fast-forward four months and you say, is 31-year-old Leo Troussard, and I'm not trying to age-cliff him, don't worry, but is 31-year-old Leo Troussard still in March and April clearly the definite guy we're picking off the left every game? I don't know. I don't know if I think that's the case, Clive.

47:11Elliot:Well, I think Eze was brought as a versatile attacker. Yeah, yeah, that's a better way to say it. He's played right eight, left eight, left wing, number 10, and you and Tim have got him as center forward, shadow striker, right? which he basically did at Newcastle and did against Spurs as we rotated around him and he stayed more static than anybody else and he got the shots off and got a hat trick. So for me, for Arsenal Football Club, you keep doing all this stuff, mate, because you make us stronger. That's what's making everyone think we're going to be favourites for the title, etc. Because we can adapt to any situation and put a player out accordingly.

47:49Elliot:If you're trying to put him into a box, say it's either you or Odegaard, and Odegaard has a million touches, you have 35. Well, he's not going to be that player. Do you know? And that's it. And I was there earlier at the start of the season. I was saying exactly the same things. And then Newcastle happened. And I realized what was going on. And I watched him moving between lines. And he sometimes, Tim says something great to me offline, sometimes you need to coach a player to stand still. You know, and I think Eze knows when to stand still to receive it, second phase, in the lines. and I've learned that that's not what other players do and so it's a matter of star and what you like and what the balance is and so in this game he was fine in the last few games he was fine the only game he was exposed was Villa and he shouldn't have played in that position for Villa you know and he's been on he's been sat down for a couple of games because you've got to check your children's son simple as that you know this is Arsenal Football Club you can't just stand there you know so and he'll learn from that and I thought he was better defensive in this game he covered miles a couple of times and yeah, I'm just watching it brew.

48:53Elliot:My boy said to me, he's always better second half of the season anyway. Just see what happens then. I'm just waiting. I'm just waiting. Yep. All right. Let's do a little bit on the defenders, a little bit on the penalties and get out of here. But if we're going to do that, we might as well tell you that if you are trying, trying desperately to consume content that is blocked in your area because the evil overlords of content have determined that you live on some piece of soil that is not permitted to see that, the beneficial altruists at NordVPN have the way to help you see that content. It's called NordVPN.

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51:44Is that enough of that?

51:46Elliot:Indeed. Not it. Clive, question for you.

51:53If you had to, like, just watch centerbacks play with the ball at their feet for the rest of your life, would you pick Saliba and Calafiori? Because they were so silky and beautiful to watch in this game. I do wonder if this performance from Calafiori will make Mikel rethink his hierarchy at that position, by the way, when Gabrielle is not available, not when Gabrielle is available. But I love the performance of these center backs. I think they are so sensational. Cal Fiore is so smooth on the ball. He is a unicorn. I remember when we did our scouting video of Cal Fiore, we said this is another Saliba because he looked so confident striding out with the ball at his feet.

52:33He has a way of sort of tackling and taking care of situations that's so comfortable and calm and composed. I love them together and I'm curious if you were as taken with them it could just be their physical

52:44Elliot:appearance but I think it's their football yeah well I did say Elliot remember I said Hinkap is left back and Cal Fiore would have gone inside to me and for many reasons I just think he's he's very dynamic and he does fantastic things him and Trossard have done really well this season he's allowed Trossard to really elevate his game because his movement so brilliant and Trossard's a passer and he can find him. But at Villa, I would have played Califuri at centre-back and Incappi at left-back. I think he would have done a much better balance to that game. And he's an Italian centre-back. They know how to defend.

53:22Elliot:They know about line height. When we signed him, he was playing centre-back for Bologna. And he was playing in the back three for Italy, but mate, he was never there. But it's coming out of the central zone. In our minds, I'm thinking we've got the John Stones, shall we say, because at that time, he was fresh off being a midfielder from centre-back, and I'm thinking, this is going to be great when we do this. You know what I mean? And the left-back thing, I think he's a brilliant left-back. I think he transformed this team. His elevation this year has been a major factor. Our full-back elevation of Tim Brand and him have been a major factor in people taking us more seriously.

53:56Elliot:But as a centre-back, mate, he's heavyweight. He leans on people. He knows when to drop off early. He's got quicker and fitter. He's dominant in the air. He did the Gabriel role on set pieces. He jumped a little bit early for me. He's just a little bit early on his timing. But his talent is off the scale, mate. This is a major world star we have on our hands here. Really major player. And just close your eyes and think about players that play like him around the world. There's nobody who does all the stuff he does. You know, he popped up the edge of the area playing an inside pass like a 1-2, like a midfielder.

54:31Elliot:you know i think he's all he said he wants to play midfield properly i just think he's excellent and um i when you see when the first thing i do every game although yesterday's game was slightly different because tim they kicked the other way didn't they in in this game which threw me because i changed seats and i didn't know what i didn't know where i was right so um and so but the first thing i do is i look at the back floor and see how they look you know end of last season i looked at Myles and Timber, I thought, wow, they look the same body-wise. But Myles is just a kid. And look at them, we can't see any difference.

55:04Elliot:You know? And so that was a really comforting thing for me. And the first time I saw him, Capio, center back, I say he's a left back. I say that on the podcast. He's a left back. For this team, for England, and the way he is so attacking and wants to track people, obviously he can play center back. I don't think he's going to make the England team, though, Claude. Yeah, that's not what you meant for England. You meant for playing England. His error numbers are great, but there are winning headers and there are dominant headers. Califioris are more dominant in those situations. And Hinkapi, was it the Chelsea game where he put that lovely floated cross in the last minute from centre-back or wide centre-back?

55:41Elliot:And it was beautiful and Timber nicked it off Jokeres. We've got all the evidences there. And this is the thing that bothers me and worries me. You've got to get to here quicker. For me, you've got to get here quicker. It can't take time. We've dropped one league already with a timber injury and not getting to have us a centre-forward sooner. We can't mess about with this squad. We've got to get here quicker with the balance, which was so encouraging about last night's game. Eight changes to balance, spot on. And we've got to get here quicker for me. And so the Califiori centre-back thing, again, major moment.

56:19Elliot:We don't have to play Gabriel every two minutes. It opens up the door for Incappi left-back. It opens up the door for Miles to be more inclusive on the pitch. So this is a good thing, mate, a good thing. Yeah, sticking Miles next to Cal Fiore, I think, obviously has a knock-on effect for how Miles looks versus sticking him next to N 'Capier. And I do think it is fair to note that both N 'Capier and Muscara, by the way, and Miles have played in a lot of all-change back fours, you know what I mean, with all-change midfields in front of them too. too. It's not like you're bringing Miles into Timber, Saliba, Gabby, Rice, Zubamendi, Odegaard.

56:58It's not like you're bringing Incappier into Timber, Saliba, Incappier, Calafiore, Rice. They've had to come in and come in with multiple changes around them. And I always think, especially as a defender, that's going to expose you more. So I agree with a lot of that. And Tim, I'll give you a worry question because we're overdue for a worry question. It feels a little happy, do you worry that in light of Ben White's injury, and I think Ben White probably being a player who, because of the way we use him like a bar of soap, may continue to have injuries, that we really are so dependent on Timber right now.

57:35Nothing feels more arsenal than worrying about what if a player gets an injury? Well, what if a player doesn't get an injury? But you'd like to believe that there is someone we trust to play that position other than him. I think that player was probably Mascara and White, and they're both gone. So where does that leave us at right back? Yeah, relatively short term, I think. I'd like to think that lessons will have been learned about how to use Ben White. And I think the answer is not two minutes in two months, then four straight late 90s well results would say you're correct about that yeah so like you know maybe a little bit of lighter rotation there you're right like mascara was trusted to play there as well earlier in the season so when he comes back that brings us up so i'm not be a while yeah yeah yeah i'm not i'm not hugely worried um about the numbers there obviously in the short term i am particularly because, well, I was going to say it's such a congested part of the season, but which part of the season isn't?

58:40It's August nowadays, isn't it? That's the only time there isn't a game every three days. So Timber's probably going to have to play some other cup games potentially, although Arteta sounded reasonably optimistic about Ben White coming back a little bit more quickly. I think we have a very good situation there, like in having Yuri and Timber and Ben White. And I think what we've got to learn is we've got two really good right backs. Let's use them relatively interchangeably and protect the health of both of them because they both suffered from this. And I just think evening out the distribution of games at right back, we played Ben White.

59:21We discovered he's still Ben White. We can play him and, you know, hopefully protect both of these players because they're both really good. And that's really – I've taken your worry question and turned it into Arsenal have two really good right backs. I can't get this podcast onto the worry track at all, no matter how hard I try. Yeah. Yeah. But so, Tim, I mean, let's just say – let's just say Mikel wanted to not play Timber in a game coming up soon. What do you think the back four would be? Yeah, without Ben White. Without Ben White and Mascara, I don't know. You'd probably have to play like Josh Nichols maybe or Salmon, for example.

1:00:06I mean, could he move Calafiore right and play, you know, or in Cappier right and play miles left? I mean, it's down to that sort of decision point. I mean, we've seen him use midfielders there, right? So he could play Zubomendi there. I don't think Norgard. Maybe. Maybe it's Norgard. Yeah, maybe it's Norgard. I mean, obviously you'd have to do it a very different way. It'd have to be like, you know, kind of back three and you really push the left back on, which is not really what we do at the moment. But yeah, you'd be looking... Basically, the only choices are bringing academy player or repurpose somebody.

1:00:44And none of those are perfect. And whoever I set... I'm sure Declan Rice would be great at right back. Don't want to take him out of midfield, though. Because I'll give you an example. But like, there's no, absolutely no construction in the universe where Yuri and Timbers should play the Kyra Adalmati game. Just give him the day off. But to do that, you have to have someone. You're going to play it. Yeah, I'm sure Ben White will be back by then. He'll probably be injured again by then, to be honest.

1:01:09Elliot:There's positive news on White and Mosquera to come in. Oh, that's good. That's good. Yeah, so don't get too stressy. Well, okay. You know what, guys? Fine. Failed attempt at worrying, and I apologize. I tried. Tried for all you fellow worriers out there. I tried. They wouldn't take the bait, and I apologize. A bit of a sloppy second half. I don't think we have to go into it too far. There were some good moves. A beautiful flowing move in the 80th minute that led to Jesus bending it, and it's well saved. But that was a lovely front-to-back, right-to-left flowing move. There was some interesting stuff.

1:01:42Eze had a shot that was blocked that I think was a handball. There's no VAR. And by and large, I don't think there was too much to re-review or relitigate, but that was probably a handball. It depends on what you think of the proximity there. We did make, obviously, a lot of changes. The changes, I don't think, did too much. The game was a little bit back and forth. But, Clive, I will ask you about this. It's now four stoppage time goals conceded in about eight games in the league, in the League Cup or whatever it is. And that could be correlation and may not be – correlation does not equal causation.

1:02:24It is a curious thing, and it makes me wonder, is there something about how we're dealing with sort of balls pumped into the box and scrambled situations that tend to be where those goals have come from? So what do you make of the late – the late stoppage time goals we've conceded, those four stoppage time goals we've conceded, and if there's a there, there?

1:02:44Elliot:yeah I mean the Villa one I mean apart we couldn't do much more the effort to keep it out the net was like significant you know I felt in that game we we dropped away a little bit we we ran out of energy but it was a massive on the end of a massive run the Sunderland one was a bit more disappointing I felt that was a bit more freakish you know good reverse ball didn't quite win the first contact and we just didn't organize ourselves and the goalkeeper came out trying to fix the situation excuse me and they and they scored right so this one i thought is actually a quite a good set piece lerma's really good in the back post he jumped out of his boots headed it down to a moving runner side footed in am i correct that saliba took responsibility for that in post-match comments too he took responsibility for it because he's an idiot on the sideline playing against devony he just ended up pulling his shorts pulling around just got his situations wrong we're bouncing balls, mate.

1:03:39Elliot:He got it wrong. The ball bounced past him and he ended up fouling somebody. If he just goes goal side and we then let him beat you, he ain't going to beat you because he's more of a number 10 player. But he just pulled him and we ended up dealing with a set piece. He did something in the Everton game like that too, sort of late, if I remember. Yeah. Yeah, fouled. Was it Beto maybe out near the touchline? Yeah, maybe, maybe. But anyway, the real question is, me because we've got the best defense in the world the real question is at that point it should have been three nil you know that's the question this is the discussion to have and it's not about i'm not like as concerned as i was about certain midfield dynamics a few weeks ago because i can see a lot of real good intent to attack real that verve is back you know that we lost but this is the problem this is it if right now you go and speak to joe public and say what do you think about Arsenal, oh, they're a great side.

1:04:37Elliot:But, you know, will they score enough goals? Simple as that. Will they score enough goals? It's not overcomplicating. Will they score enough goals? We know we're not going to concede much. So every time we concede, we focus on how we conceded and when we conceded. But actually, we should have been tuned up against Everton. We should have put Sunderland to bed. She never had gone a goal down. Right? We should have buried them and still had a chance afterwards. Aston Villa, I feel, Villa played well. just give them their dues we turn up there without our centre-backs and they seized the moment and took us out right so um so fair play to them for me it's a 1-1 game they nicked it last kick of the game so but for me we need to score more goals and that's it and that's the focus we need to get more from jesus we haven't got much from him from a goal scoring perspective so let's not get seduced by the tippy-tappy play in this game actually i think your point about him being like jokeres was really really good because he was much more like a nine and but better combinate combining than jokeres so now we've got a serious good thing going on there do you see what i mean every time i see the ball going to the into the half space i'm yearning for kai havertz on the back post and i sometimes think this team is just set up for him you know that that's the way we play and um i think yeah that's where we are and you're in timber's getting in the way in the box mate sometimes I want him to stay out of there.

1:06:00Elliot:He's getting so many shots on the headers. Just edge back a bit maybe for a shot, you know? But the fact he's there getting so many efforts means we're really trying. He's not going away. And I think, mate, you said something earlier, sorry, mate, that I think a whooping is coming for somebody. I really do. I think a whooping is coming. If Gabby was playing, he would have had three goals in this game. Some of the corners were fantastic. Again, I have no idea how we failed to score off them. kudos to nani madweke by the way i mean his corner deliveries were really really good and we have gotten great at whipping it under the bar and if one isn't going to fly in straight soon i mean you can understand why they wind up scoring an own goal it's a terrible goal for them to concede but just the pressure we put on teams and handling those those set piece and corner kick situations is is intense um let's get to the penalties super quick look they're all fantastic and and tim i I think it is possible.

1:06:57The reason they're fantastic is it shows you the level of care and concern about this. But I joked on the instant reaction. I don't know how much I care about the League Cup, but by the sixth or seventh penalty, I really cared about the League Cup. I did not want to – the nerves were building as they do. I've still got the bruises on my hands because I sit near like an advertising hoarding and every time a Palace player was stepping up, doing that eight times in a row. Yeah, yeah. It gets – I've got the old oven gloves. It looks like I'm wearing oven gloves today and I'm not. Okay. Which was your favorite penalty?

1:07:29Who took the best penalty? I think my favorite, I mean, like Saka hits that. That's that kind of Harry Kane side netting. But I think there are things to say about this penalty shootout, by the way, in terms of like the process. It's actually kind of the same order. So Odegaard first, Saka third. We saw that against Porto. We're seeing that a lot, like the repetition and all of that. but but the one I think I enjoyed the most because it was the one I'm most I was most confident in was Saliba actually because everyone you're like I think you're a good penalty taker I trust you but things can happen and even though Saliba was was he our eighth or seventh he was he was the last one he's the last one I was just like I know how you play I know you're not going to panic and I know like you watch Saliba play and I can see a penalty taker do you know what I mean just like unbelievably cool ball always goes where it needs to go and because you know some of those guys you get into sudden death and you're a bit like you know Calafuri steps up and I'm a bit like is this going to be a blast down the middle that hits the goalkeeper shins and you know Saliba I was like I know what he's going to do he's he's going to slot it and it's going to go in the side netting and he's going to turn and walk like nothing's happened which is exactly what happened so I found that the most rewarding one you're right I got increasingly tense because I was like, Kepa, do you think you could just try and go the right way for one?

1:08:55Am I right that he dove right? Should we try that? Am I right that he dived right every single time and just waited for them to hit one right? No, no, no. I watched it back. He didn't. He did go to the left a couple of times. But it wasn't quite as bad as David Ryer in the Man United game. But he was going quite early. So you're saying he didn't dive seven minutes before the penalty was taken? and uh and like but but it was like you know just i do also think there's probably like another you know longer more serious point we won't go into here but penalty conversion is up in the last five years or so and i think what you're seeing is kind of similar to set pieces isn't it like now you're getting like really individualized detailed coaching and everyone's accepted that penalties are not a lottery they're not about luck they're about technique routine and all of this that just like set pieces now teams are really focusing on them they're a specialty if you look at the best ever penalty conversion rates too in the premier league it's not like henry kane holland it's not that it's players that you may not even regard as as elite players from a goal scoring standpoint, which I think just highlights penalty.

1:10:07Yeah, they are. Penalties are a specialized skill that you can train and you can improve at. And teams are crossing every T and dotting every I now. But yeah, go ahead. Yeah. And I was going to say now, a lot of players have got that technique down of waiting for the goalkeeper to move. So Marino does that really well. I think Calafuri does it. If he doesn't, he's kind of lucky. The goalkeeper goes the other way. Marino definitely does it. like a lot of a lot of players palace players did because there are a couple of players who like specialize that like heider helgeson edin hazard and they could really do it and then loads of players used to try it and they they couldn't do it and they took these ridiculous penalties but i think over time like most players have got that technique down of waiting for the goalkeeper to move and it's just and and i think the rules as well in terms of like they've tightened up on goalkeepers coming off the line and all of that like that you know you can't trick anything as a goalkeeper now although you can move up and down on your line you couldn't always do that but like generally speaking I just think what we're seeing is quite penalty shootouts are quite a high level now because teams really take preparing them seriously.

1:11:18Leo's was really good by the way I think it was top pins yeah go ahead.

1:11:24Elliot:Yeah I just think there are different techniques sometimes you see short run up don't always stress with that because sometimes they just getting to running quickly and goalkeepers think well what do I do and suddenly you're frozen Taliba, Timber they both did short run up short run up and then if you look at I mean Saka's one was literally siding it in and off the post I mean you couldn't save that you put two keepers there and and the one penalty that was saved was the one guy that looked at the ball the longest and the goalkeeper saw him looking at the ball and thought I know where he's going to go and he went early and whereas the others they look they look at the ball they don't look at the ball so much, you know, because they're confident when their foot placement, and with their standing foot placement's okay, they can disguise and whip.

1:12:07Elliot:But that's a defender than taking. And a couple of our defenders I wasn't sure about, I hadn't seen Kalfjory take a penalty, but he dispelled my nerves. But the one I enjoyed the most because I hadn't seen him take a penalty was Timber. And I just thought he smashed that in. That was a freaking good penalty. Yeah. And the reason I was worried, because he was limping around for the last part of the game. I'm thinking, you know when a player's tied, they're the ones that sort of normally carry it into extra time and all the penalties and miss it. But actually, he just walked up like he was just going to get a pint of milk and smash it in the net.

1:12:41Elliot:So yeah, I really liked his penalty as well. Yeah, I would just say, I think this is also demonstrative of the extent to which pressure is a thing in football. Because you can have a team of players that all of a sudden look like they're going to shit themselves when the ball's bouncing around their box in the 90th minute and then get a penalty shootout and their composure's back, but if this is a Champions League final shootout, I'm pretty sure a couple of those players aren't able to pull out that penalty. You know what I mean? And so it's really good to see all these players take great penalties because we might need them to do it again this season.

1:13:14But I think it's unlikely you'd see the same outcome if the stakes were higher. So it's hard to know what pressure does to a player, but I think it does something. Clive, final thought here. We're into the semifinal now. it's Chelsea twice we're trying to win everything this is the fourth most important thing but now that we're here let's go win it do you think Mikel will stick with the kind of approach against Chelsea that we've seen here which is that the squad I hate referring anyone to squad players at this point because some of these players we're calling squad players are elite but do you think he'll stick with the same approach or is this going to be more first team-ish when we get into the semi-final yeah I'm really glad we got Chelsea by the way because

1:13:56Elliot:because they've got a lot of players that need to rotate into their squad as well. And they rotate nicely. They're a young team. I think they could do something similar because they have squad promises, no doubt, like we have made to players. Can they just rotate out Caicedo, please? We'll do something similar. I think the fact that we've got four teams that are in Europe is really good because we've got the same schedule, so there's no messing about there. and during the game I was sitting there quite relaxed about the penalties thinking well we've got Chelsea if we don't play Chelsea then we get a couple of weeks off and so and then as a and then basically when it went in I was up on my feet singing Free From Desire I really wanted that semifinal and and and so some of the stuff you say almost behind the keyboard when it when it really hits you want to win and then look at the players they want to win man they want to win badly they were genuinely happy the manager i re-watched this morning that manager mate he ain't messing about he wants to win you know you don't want to get eliminated in front of your home fans in any cup competition period end of story well i'd forgotten you know tim remember many night in newcastle last year i'd forgotten about the allocation they get now it changes dynamics in the ground and like many night was a tough night mate it's a tough night it was you know they got 8 ,000, 9 ,000 there enjoying themselves after a penalty shootout.

1:15:24Elliot:Newcastle bopped us at home in the League Cup. They really did dance around us, you know? And I suddenly realised, oh, shit, they've got loads there. And then it becomes a real game, you know? And I heard this on other podcasts. I really agree that we're missing the opportunity on this competition to play on a neutral ground, semi-final, a one-off, you know? Tim, I don't know if you remember, when we went to Old Trafford when it was years ago in the FA Cup semi-final, beat Spurs, and it was 50-50 at Old Trafford. And it was a fantastic occasion. Absolutely outstanding. All the many nighters should have been saying, this is amazing.

1:16:01Elliot:Never seen a ground like this. You know, that game is missing from the English game. You know, and it's such a shame. You know, can you imagine we're playing Chelsea? We're maybe playing at Spurs. 50-50. It'd be brilliant. Absolutely brilliant occasion. I, I think I'd probably add on this kind of subject earlier about, because we've talked, haven't we, about like the League Cup, how seriously should we take it, blah, blah, blah. You devoted the entire mailbag to it last week. But I know I said in like a pre-season pod, like I want us to completely ditch it this year. I think the thing is, and I don't feel like that now, and I recognize that's a contradiction in my position, but I think the thing is that's that's really hard for players to do like once you're playing what what are you supposed to do like lose on purpose like no and like I said earlier we do have the level of squad now you see Pep City they're always in the last four this competition I used to think that Klopp's Liverpool threw this competition away I've revised that I don't think they did because towards the end the second half of his tenure they were regularly getting to the final and winning it and i think it's just because they've got a bigger squad like when they used to have 12 13 elite players who could win the league yes they did throw it in the bin but then they got 18 players 20 players and all of a sudden hey ho they start getting to finals and stuff we haven't had an easy route like we've beat well portvale okay beat brighton palace like those are two really good teams and we're able to beat them with like seven eight nine players rotated so that's just a kind of reality and I think it reminds me of the discussion we had when Gabriel got injured for Brazil where it's like I think it's a contradictory position to expect to have a team that is capable and hungry to win the league title who then compartmentalizes league cup games and throws them in the bin like I think when you're at the stage where you got a league title winning quality team which I think we have they don't just go yeah I'm not going to bother with the League Cup and actually some of those guys that played last night they want to get in the team so they really really want to show something and they're good players so I think while we've got a squad like this getting to the latter stages of the League Cup is something that's going to happen I think we look better positioned to do it this year that certainly than we did last year before the first leg we have portsmouth away in the fa cup um before the second leg we have leads away then sunderland at home after the second leg portsmouth away forest away after the first leg you know we have some champions league near that time frame but you know kairat almighty in the interway i theoretically we could we could theoretically lose both and still finish top um but we're not going to lose to kairat almighty he says having said the same thing about the Wolves game.

1:19:07So I'm just going to be careful about that. I would just say that we got to go try to win it now. And the fixtures line up where we can go try to win it. But I want to be clear, I'm totally fine with him picking a mixed lineup based on who needs minutes and where we are. Because part of managing a big club that wants to win four trophies is when you come up to the semifinal phase of the fourth most important trophy, you thread the needle of trying to win it without trying to win it so much that you jeopardize anything else you're in. Right? And I think he can do that because he's got the squad to do it.

1:19:41So that's really all there is to say about that. Clive, you want to find a word? And once you're in the semi, the semi is the kind of annoying part. You're in it, right? You got the two legs. You're talking about one more fixture if you win it, right? Yeah, exactly. Although I will just point out, if you get to that final, you wind up with a heck of a lot of fixture congestion in April, May time because you get a rearranged league game that goes into that Champions League semi-final, end of the league type thing. but let's worry about that when we get there, Clive.

1:20:06Elliot:I just realized we've got about 10 games in four weeks and we've got players being fit and I'm going to have to sit with you and talk about first 11 selections for a long time in the next few weeks. And I'm going to really get into this because I think there's so many different facets that drive a selection of a team and I think in this game, I think one big thing was about Eze and tricking him and getting him going by playing him in the Odegaard from the left. And that's almost saying to him, we're trying to put you in position to succeed. And I think we've seen that a little bit more. It may not fit with your selections, but Wolves at home, Jokeres, not the perfect game for him, but Wolves at home, we need to get you going.

1:20:52Elliot:And we're going to see lots of these sort of psychological selections because we all know the only thing that matters, mate, is the last three months of the season being in position. And so we're preparing for that. yeah interesting one I do think there was a part of me that hoped that Mikel might opt for uh Marino to come off and as it and Odegaard to come on just to get another look at Odegaard and as it together but there'll be there'll be time for all that to happen so why why is that a thing for you I'm just curious about it right I'm because I think that Martin Odegaard is such an effective player in in the middle third and I think when you have Rice and Odegaard you have players who give you tons of ball progression, tons of pressing engagement, tons of defensive awareness, and all of the kind of running and energy and intensity that you need in midfield.

1:21:40I think Odegaard is, in my mind, is just in my mind, a tiny notch below in that final ball, final third area, but still quite good at it. And I think if you have both of them together, I'd be curious to see what the attacking dynamic looks like as they develop a relationship that would be a really interesting relationship to see develop as an option, not as the first option but as an option, we just, we saw it for about 15 minutes against West Ham, then Odegaard went off injured and we really haven't had a chance to see it since and I'm curious about it, that's all

1:22:11Elliot:I think, I understand it because it looks nice on paper but then you may have introduced me to FB Ref and look at Odegaard's FB Ref defensive numbers I've never seen 1 % before, right? So on those bars, I didn't look at essays. And so you've got to separate them. And so the way you separate is you put someone in between them. And so the real thing is something like a rice. And so you say, you two are going to play, but I need to look after you. So you can succeed. What we haven't seen yet is essay with a hink happy as a left back. I'm interested in that dynamic. And so I don't think it's about just those two.

1:22:49Elliot:I think it's about how we put accompanying pieces around them. And I think they're going to be on the pitch very, very soon together, but maybe not in the 8-8, if you know what I mean, Elliot. Yeah, yeah, could be left in 8. We'll see. It'd be fun to see that dynamic, that relationship build. I think there's become this either-or way of discussing those players, but I think they could have a really exciting relationship, one with the other, and I'd like to see that as well. So, okay, plenty, plenty for you to tuck into over the festive period here. we'll have some stuff ahead of Brighton and we'll have a bright instant reaction we'll have a message out for patrons shortly and other than that if you need anything get in touch we'd love to hear from you have a very very Merry Christmas if you're celebrating if you're not celebrating I just hope it's a lovely time away from working and to reset and rest and recover because the fixture congestion affects us all let's be honest Clive thanks thank you very much Tim thank you my friend my pleasure as always my name is Elliot Smith we absolutely love you I cannot emphasize that enough this community means the world to me and it is certainly one of the joys of my life at a stage of my life when I would say that all the extra community that I can get is definitely needed it's a time that I really appreciate you so thanks for being here we love you and we will talk to you after Arsenal's Head right now

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