Champions League Final Preview with Clive and Julien Laurens

30:51Elliot:If he plays Odegaard, I think the best forward for Odegaard is Claiborne. So I'm very consistent in my analysis, right? If I talk about pairs throughout the whole year, then why would I not talk about it in the European Cup final? Do you see what I mean? We can all see. And they look for each other. I mean, they have the off-pitch relationship. It translates on-pitch. You see it clear as dead. Exactly. If the manager picks one, he's got to pick the other, right? If he says, no, you know what? I'm going to go for them. I'm going to go down the sides, and I want to keep proximity of Eze and Jokeres together.

31:19Elliot:I'm going to end the game with my soldiers that have been here for three, four years. If he does that, I'm not worried. Would you be worried? As long as the game plan fits those two selections. It's also, I mean, I don't know how relevant this is, but Kai Havertz has scored the winning goal in a Champions League final. He's the one guy that's been there and done that. And, you know, I mean, whatever you want to say to him about missing chances and maybe not being clinical, and I do understand that, There's not a lot of players around that dressing room that have this experience. He has it, and he has won it, and he has been the reason it was won.

31:57And if you watch the comps from that game, he was really, really effective in that game. Now, again, different opponent, different season. Point is, I do think it's worth putting the one guy on the pitch that you have that has won this competition and scored the winning goal in the final. Yeah, I think, for me, that's all well and good,

32:15Elliot:and he'll go in there with a level of confidence. Elliot mate the City away game he was the best player on the pitch if he scores them goals he's the best player on the pitch I spoke to some City scene ticket holders they were shocked how good he was his movement the way he rattled them the way he pressed them for me that's the game we need to be holding on to I think that's a high level away performance that tactically and what we did again we just didn't score enough you know and how did we concede Elliot do you remember how we concede that second goal we missed the pressing assignment didn't look over our shoulders they went through and that's the biggest danger if you miss a pressing assignment they will hurt us because facing our goal they will hurt us you know so that's the thing i'm worried about figuring out what to do when dem belly drops in isn't it i mean isn't that a big part of it well you know not going and chasing not not jumping out of your hole it depends it depends this is why the declan rice position is really important this is why when you're selecting somebody, don't select them almost on form for this game.

33:16Elliot:Select them for the scenarios you want to prevent or set them for the scenarios you want to create. So do I want Declan Rice to play like he did against City, where he played high, right? Or do I want to play low and stop things happening? If he wants to play high, then I think Zubmendi will play. If he wants to play low, I think Miles will play, right? So it's about the role you want to give somebody, right so and if Dembele drops in last year we had Kivio and Saliba and in the first game we played Trossard as a false knight yep I remember and I think well okay carry on if you if you feel sorry sorry we played Trossard as a false knight so now we've got a situation where we've got Havertz and we're sitting there at this time of the year by the way this conversation four months ago there is no conversation we're picking one over the other now we can have a conversation because we've now seen somebody in Jokeres have a clear role in the semi-final.

34:12Elliot:He was outstanding. And Kai Havertz, we've seen him play in the high-level game with a Man City away, which could be similar tactically to how they build up, to how PSG will build up. Forget the missed chances. The level was extremely high. And so it comes back to that, really. I'm unsure about Eze and Trussard, how they're going to play and what the role is there. but I am pretty convinced about Califuri you know and I'm convinced about that and I hope the manager picks a team for the plan that's the key for me doesn't pick a team because let's be honest within the squad there's an opportunity for the squad to reach the absolute mountaintop do I pick the team that maybe have been me the project the longest or do I pick the team to win this game based on the game plan that I have and there are people saying Clive is going to pick this player because he always picks him.

35:08Elliot:He always picks him. Do I pick that team or do I pick a team for the player? And I think that's the challenge for us really. But I will say to you now, I am comfortable either way we go. Either way we go. Yeah, my turn for a dog emergency. Something very exciting happened outside. There may even have been a squirrel. Rumors have that there may have been a squirrel. Is there, in your mind, any scenario where Mikel does something unexpected to try to take advantage of what he might regard as a weakness in PSG? So, for example, I think Zaire Emery is an excellent player, but he's not naturally a fullback.

35:49And I don't know if he... I mean, he's obviously not Hakimi. Now, I think Hakimi will participate in this game, but I'm not sure he will start. And so is there a world where he does something like start Nani on the left and try to run Zaire Emery, try to give him a challenge that physically he's not up to? I mean, you can't run Hakimi, but you can run Zaire Emery, right? Like that's something you could do. So like, do you think there's a scenario? I mean, Leo has been playing so great and I'd hate to see us go away from him, but is there something Mikkel might try to do with the expectation that their right-hand side defensively is worth attacking?

36:26Elliot:yeah I think it's how we enter the box is really important so what Trussard will do we all know he's going to do he's going to drop into that little half space almost like a high eight space he'll protect dance twinkle toes get his head up look for a pass right so as soon as the players know Trussard's going to get that ball he's going to manipulate it what he will do then is flick it into the danger area and that's where the Havertz and those guys or your careers that's when they're all kind of fury they move into those areas right So I think that's really important if he plays. If Eze plays, he's a bit more of a stronger receiver and he floats to the edge of the D.

37:04Elliot:So I always think Eze's relationship is almost with Saka. When Saka goes right, he looks for cutbacks and Eze's your guy to slot it. So we can do so many things, right? And everyone's healthy at the moment. Literally everyone's healthy. And I would think if Marino was a bit longer in the two fitness-wise, what he's so smart tactically so clever so able to to manage the game manage a referee manage the contact buy a foul get get to the area arrive in the air when he arrives there he arrives very very strongly and technically they should have trained a video the other day of him just getting up to fitness and it showed him just finishing it was just a joke i know it's training right they got a kidding goal, but the technique and the center of the ball stuff was like, oh my God, he didn't play for four months.

37:55Elliot:He's all there. He's all there. And he's got selected for the Spain squad. Damn right he's got, they can't not go with a player like that because he'll get you out of jail, right? But I just don't think he's quite fit enough to start. If he did start, I think the skipper would be upset and Eze would be upset. He's going to play a part potentially. Yeah, he's a player that can give you something really unique in terms of his aerial ability, his duel winning. I mean, there's so many things he can do that we just don't really have in the team, but I agree. I think it's probably a little too soon to pick him.

38:32By the way, I should just say he deserves huge credit for getting back at all, really, because, I mean, the extent to which this was apparently a very complex and serious fracture in his foot, you know, So I think he's done brilliantly to get back. So, you know, as we start to wrap this, because I do want to get to the conversation with Julian, and I think he's got a lot of interesting sort of insight on the PSG side. I want to sort of get into last bits of prediction here. And I don't just mean like score prediction, but before we do that, the subs bench will make a difference. It's one thing that I want to say, not to be too Clive about this, but whatever lineup he picks, if he has Marino and Eza or Odegaard and Martinelli and Nani and Jokeres, at his disposal, potentially a Timber on the bench, a Hincapié.

39:28There's a lot of quality in this team to change games. There's a lot of quality to see out games. And I do think he will use the team as much as he can to navigate this game. I think we have to be honest. PSG is the other best team in Europe in my mind. I think they are obviously the holders. They're obviously a team that is not pushed in their domestic league. So they are fresh, as fresh as you can be coming into this time of the season. I think we're very fortunate to be entering this game somewhat fresh, not having to have exerted ourselves against Palace and not having had the anxiety since last Tuesday because once again, I should reiterate, we are champions of England.

40:07There's going to be a million people in the streets on Sunday, no matter what. But this is the moment. to go from a really emotional, impactful, important title-winning season to immediately entering the pantheon of one of the most famous teams in the history of this club and becoming the best club in Europe. So what's your expectation of how it plays out?

40:31Elliot:Yes. So this is how I would approach it, right? So I can't get over the away, sorry, the home game last year when they came out of the block three really quickly and scored an unbelievable goal. It felt like in the first three minutes. And the air came out of the balloon. I'm not sure we recovered from that moment. And so in my mind, being the pragmatist I am, I want to stand and have a look at them for five minutes. I just want to have a look at them and see what they're doing, have a look, mid-block them, and go from there. That's what I want to do. But then I want to get aggressive. I want to get aggressive.

41:06Elliot:I'm saying, look at your build-up patterns for 5 '10". Okay, that's what you're doing, are you? okay we're coming we're coming to get you now and then we start to press and get more aggressive because there's a game to win this isn't a league game it's a game to win you know and um so let's go and get after them a little bit more and because of that my selection would be i would go mascara right back to start the game i would go to mendy rice odegaard havertz down the gut i'm i'll go califuri center back to goalkeeper pick themselves and i'm i'm 50 very much 50 50 on Eze or Trossard on the left you know but I think they're both going to play anyway so take your pick I think Trossard's slightly better off the bench but he didn't play a minute the other day although he's been so I've just got a feeling he may play but I just think Eze's a match winner and we're trying to win the game right so but Trossard I can hear people shouting but Clive Trossard scored at West Ham so the biggest goal of the season so far right and so yeah it's very much a 50 50 call if I'm the manager I'm thinking I know tactically that group can adapt to what PSG do and they're very very smart off the ball and they can create on the ball problems but the problem is if the game is not working out for somebody we have seen this manager make substitutes for half time we've seen him take off big players in game at West Ham he took off Bakayi and Saka for God's sake right remember that right and he took off Eze and Saka and we were nil-nil it's not a problem you know so i just think as long as the team we select is the game plan that we're going for yeah and i'm not going to get i mean for once i'm not going to get too worked up on the selection i think michael has certainly earned all the trust you want to give him it's easy to see that we haven't been at our absolute best the entire premier league season but nobody has in the premier league it was an attritional battle all season long but it's also easy to forget no one's been better in europe than us no we manhandled atleti in the league in the table phase we manhandled inter at their place we manhandled byron at our place we've sailed through the knockout rounds we are the only team that hasn't lost a game so while there is no doubt in my mind that psg are as good as they come and they are as serious opposition as they come.

43:36We deserve to be here on merit for the way we've played in Europe. And when we've come up against teams in Europe, by and large, even when we've not looked our swashbuckling best, like during the knockout rounds, they have not had a solution for us. The thing I will say about this game that makes PSG unique is that PSG can do what they did against Bayern, which is score five goals from whatever it was, one and a half XG. Did you watch that game? No, I know. Well, no one played any serious defense, and there were high lines, and there was space to run into, and the box had two defenders in it. But what I'm saying is they have the talent.

44:12I mean, we saw it in the semifinal. I don't even have to point to the Bayern game. Dembele can get a shot from the edge of the box that finds its way through three bodies and hits the side netting. They can score from a half chance. Kvart Scalia can take a bit of daylight and find a goal from nowhere. So can Mendes, so can Hakimi if he plays, so can Due. I think with PSG, what you have to do is you have to be on ball too. You cannot let them have the whole game at their feet because if they get four or five half chances, they can turn four or five half chances into two or three goals. You also probably have to hope for a slightly cold finishing day in front of goal.

44:51You need one of those days where it's not flying into the top corner. But as we saw when we played them, if you press them, if you make them nervous, they have a lot of experience now, But if you make them nervous, if you push them back into their area of defending, that's not where they want to be and that's not where they do their best work. So we have to be protagonists in some periods of this game. We cannot just be looking for moments to pick them off. So pick your team that's good on the ball. I think go toe-to-toe. I think you go toe-to-toe. I really do. I think that we can do it. I really believe we can.

45:24Elliot:I think we have to cause them a problem. So when you get to a 120-year game, when you're going toe-to-toe, have a look at them first mate have a look at what their toes look like let's not run out of the member city for one a few jabs first you don't have to go haymakers right off remember city away a few years ago when we were inexperienced and they just drew us right the way in and johnson flicked it from his byline and up to center forward and our spaces were massive we weren't compact enough we got run through everyone's looking at players being run through well guess what we're 50 yards away from each other so we need to be compact we need to be aggressive have a look at them because this is where we have got the edge so where we got the edge it's in our tools mate it's in our one-on-ones they went man-to-man against Bayern and they conceded like so many goals they scored goals but it was a man-to-man game and it wasn't clear-cut who won the battle man-to-man second game they scored early and they they sat away so they've taken defensive confidence from the Bayern game this and everyone's saying oh PSG can attack you they can look beautiful they can also defend their box I'm thinking yeah go on defend your box against us go on then let me tell you go on defend it against us and let's see what happens because we're more aggressive than Bayern we're more physical we play a much higher intensity league and we can challenge them technically and you know the Bayern fullback I can't tell you who it is Conrad Lima plays fullback for them I can't tell you and Alonso Davis played one game and I think Lima came on to replace him they got nothing in fullbacks areas we've got califuri driving into the box nico o'reilly style that's a problem elliot so i think we need to go for it but we can't be kids about this we just got to go for it this is a once in a 20 year game you need to be technically smart and adapt to what they're doing but also don't be afraid to show our pretty feet when we need to show them and we must run off shoulders and run through teams we can't stand there and watch them but i don't think we will do.

47:20Elliot:I think we'll be fine when we get our chance in possession. Yeah, just they have almost no league competition whatsoever. They played a fun little technical game against Bayern where there was lots of space to play. I just say, come out of the gates and show them that Premier League intensity, that physicality that made us champions. That's something they haven't seen. Go on, go get them. All right. I'm going for it. I'm going for it. We'll see. I mean, maybe when I'm standing there and the Champions League music starts playing and my sphincter's the size of a pinhole, that makes me feel a little bit.

47:54I know exactly what you're doing.

47:55Elliot:Come back, run back. There's a man running over there. Go and get him. No, no, go get him. And all this tactical chat will go right out the window. I'll tell you that. Oh, man. The person I feel worse for is Andrew, who has to sit next to that. Okay. I think we leave it there and turn it over to Julian for a bit of a PSG viewpoint. He's going to talk about Arsenal winning the title first. then the PSG viewpoint. We'll go from there. But Clive, next time I speak to you, my friend, we will be champions of Europe and I very much look forward to it. Absolutely. It's here. It's been recorded and I'll see you in the comments.

48:29Elliot:I know we're going to win. All right. Up the arsenal. We love you. I'm going to turn it over to me and Julian. We've all been there. You're away for the weekend. The big game is on and you realize you're restricted from watching. Or maybe you're trying to check the latest lines on your betting app, but your local network is blocking the site. These are the ultimate unforced errors. You can prevent this from happening to you with IPVanish. IPVanish is the powerhouse VPN designed to keep you in the game no matter where you are. IPVanish helps you stay connected to your favorite team and streaming services while you travel.

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49:44NHL on TNT has the best coverage with games that are physical, unpredictable, and full of energy. The studio crew, including Paul Bissonette and Wayne Gretzky, makes every night fun and easy to follow. Their takes break things down so anyone can get into the action. Watch the Stanley Cup playoffs on TNT, TBS, True TV, and HBO Max. And now without further ado, a year on from speaking about a semifinal, I get to speak to Julian about a final. Julian, it's a pleasure to see you and speak to you. Hello, mate. Thank you for having me again. Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting that we find ourselves here once more, one stage further.

50:24But before we get into the Champions League final, obviously, to the extent that we're not talking about facing PSG, you are an Arsenal supporter as well, and this has been a really special time. So it wouldn't be fair if I didn't give you a chance to ask how all these scenes of celebration have hit you and how you felt about Arsenal winning their first Premier League in 22 years?

50:46Julien Laurens:I mean, I think like all the Arsenal fans around the world and especially the ones that follow the club really closely, it's been pretty incredible, not just for me, but for my wife, obviously, and for the children who really have been brought up with the true love of Arsenal and PSG in a similar level. You know, it's funny because I thought about it yesterday. I still have the bottle of champagne of the 04 title somewhere in the house. We moved houses a year ago. And now, obviously, I can pair it with one for this year, which I think would be pretty special. We had to wait a very long time. We had to go through a lot of heartbreaks, to be fair, and football works as cycles like a lot of other things.

51:28Julien Laurens:But 22 years is a long time for a club like Arsenal, really, really long. So to finally get there and, you know, like you two, follow that progression through the last six years under Mikel has been pretty phenomenal. And funnily enough, I didn't have any doubt through the season that we would be champions, really none. It was me reassuring a lot of our, you know, friends or people that we'd come across who were saying like, oh, I'm not sure if we're going to do it. I feel stressed. I feel anxious. I feel like, I think we've got this. This is an unbelievable team, you know, regardless of some of the criticism on the style and things like that.

51:59Julien Laurens:I think the mentality of these teams and what Mikel has built was just exceptional. And I really could not see even City being able to come back and beat us to it. So it was amazing when it happened. Yeah, for me, it feels very much like the culmination of four years rather than just this single season. And just one last question. As you see the scenes of celebration, both in North London and around the world, has it been a bit of a shock to you, the size and scale of the response? I mean, I obviously know this is a big club, beloved globally, and even still, especially on Tuesday night, but even throughout the week, the size of the response and the turnout has been a bit overwhelming.

52:40Julien Laurens:Yeah, completely. I mean, it blew my mind completely. I mean, I expected something nice because I think this is a really strong fan base, a very loving, passionate fan base. I think maybe some through those 22 years kind of like drifted a little bit maybe and sort of lost a little bit of the love for the club or the attraction to the club. And I can completely understand that. If your team is not doing well, it's probably more difficult to be so passionate. But I knew there was something there. I didn't think it would be that crazy. I won't lie. And I think this is nothing compared to if, you know, if we win the Champions League and if then at the parade the next day, I think we could break records of that kind of stuff.

53:22Julien Laurens:So what I think is really good, and to be fair, I also receive messages now, messages of people who I didn't even know were Arsenal fans asking me for tickets for the final. People who haven't spoken for two years suddenly asking, coming out of the woods, saying like, could you get me into the screening? Could you get me into this final? Could you get me this? Could you make that? And maybe that's just the beauty of it, really, is when your team wins, then everybody seems an Arsenal fan again and very happy to be. And I think, you know what, on the back of the criticism on set pieces and style of play maybe and petty things like that.

53:54Julien Laurens:For those people who will be critical to have seen this level of celebration and of joy and happiness, like Roy Keane, for example, I saw his quote yesterday when he himself was like, wow, okay, now we're kind of talking. I think this is beautiful because he kind of put Arsenal in the center of it with the title, but for different reasons, which is, I think, very nice. Yeah, it is very nice. I will just tell you though that if you have friends whose first time reaching out to you in years is to ask for Champions League final tickets, don't invite them to any big family events. They're not dear friends.

54:27Julien Laurens:They're not even friends, to be fair. But it's funny. You must have the same, to be fair. People coming to you now and you didn't even know we're Arsenal fans were suddenly saying, hey, I fancy Budapest. Can you help me? And they're like, okay. Julian, what you have to know is that people understand I have no connections whatsoever. They know better than to reach out to me. Okay, so let's switch gears to the Champions League final. and I think the best place to start is actually with the semifinal last year. In Arsenal circles, and certainly according to Mikel, Arsenal would have been worthy winners of that tie.

54:58Now, I want to be fair. My personal perspective is that I think Arsenal played well enough and created the chances necessary to have potentially changed the outcome of that tie. There are others that would say, well, PSG were playing from a lead, and when you're playing from ahead, that changes how you play, and that changed the dynamic of the tie. I want to set all that aside and simply ask you, without suggesting in any respect that PSG weren't worthy winners, but do you feel that Arsenal were maybe even better than you expected or could have been worthy winners at that time? What were your conclusions from it at the end?

55:33Julien Laurens:Yeah, I thought it was going to be tight from even before the first leg at the Emirates. And I think if you look again, and I looked at the game and at the lineups, for example, when Arsenal have no Gabriel, when Luis Kelly is the left back, where Mourinho is the number nine in the second leg in Paris, for example. This is not the Arsenal team that we line up on Saturday. This is, you know, last season where I know the football might have been a little bit better at times with the ball, but this team is much better than the one that lost last season in that semifinal. I think those games, and you can look at the PSG Bayern game and you can look at others through the two campaigns, this one and last one, it's just very, very fine margins, very small margins.

56:14Julien Laurens:And I think that semifinal, just sums it up well on another day you can play it again and Arsenal will go to the final and maybe Luis Enrique we said we were a little bit unlucky exactly like Mikel said I think Mikel is right when he says that Arsenal could easily have you know have beaten PSG and qualified for the final Luis Enrique at the time said you know they were it was I think the two teams were at the same level it just happened that Donnarumma was made that save on other guard for example early on in the second leg or against Trossard just before halftime in the first leg when Dembele then had his shot half with his shin, half with his foot, that hit the post and went in.

56:50Julien Laurens:This is what we're talking. We're talking about centimeters and millimeters here. But that's why I think this final is going to be as tight as the semifinal last year. And that's why I think for all the people saying PSG is hugely favorite or Arsenal, big favorite, I don't think so. For me, it's a pure 50-50 of two teams that have different skill sets and different profiles, different stars in different positions that can win you the game. But also, I don't think there's much right now between the two teams. Yeah, I think it's a coin toss. I mean, on the Arsenal side, one thing that's quite a bit different, last season it was about picking whatever players were fit and available.

57:24This season, Mikel has some very interesting and important decisions to make, and we might come to that in a moment. But on the PSG side, it still feels like you can very easily, not even being a PSG supporter myself, obviously, close my eyes and say what that team's going to be. We've all gotten very familiar with the stars in that team. But I know that there were suggestions of some injuries, Dembele, who I think is fine, Hakimi, a report had come out that he was going to make it, but then there were some comments that that may have been a fabricated report. So do you want to give us just a quick download on what you expect the fitness levels to be for the final for PSG?

57:58Julien Laurens:Yeah, I mean, the latest I know about Hakimi, he's been training. I've seen him training myself when I was there last week. You know, high intensity runs and crosses and things like that. The truth is he hasn't played since the first leg against Bayern Munich, which is quite a long time when you think about it, to play in a final fitness-wise, in terms of match fitness, in terms of what he can bring to the team. When you have somebody like Zaire Emre, who can do a really good job at right back, maybe Luis Enrique will think, okay, I can have Hakimi on the bench and he can come in and I can play Zaire Emre at right back and Ruiz in midfield with Neves and Vitinha.

58:34Julien Laurens:So PSG have really two options. Maybe Hakimi is fine to start and play for an hour and then you change because he might not last the whole 90 minutes. Personally, I've seen him train and play, and I haven't heard that he would not be at least available for selection if needed for that game. For Dembele and Patro, who had a little niggles, I don't think there's anything to worry about that. Yep. And you mentioned right back, and obviously if Luis Enrique wants to go with Zaire Emery, he'd probably feel confident given that the left-hand side is not Arsenal's most devastating attacking side, although I think Leo Trossard has been in much better form.

59:10And if Calafiore is picked, that gives us an extra layer of threat down that side. But it is Arsenal's right-hand side defensively where they'll be focused for us. And that's where Mikel is, I would think, likely to pick Mosquera, a center back who can play right back, who's quite young and inexperienced against arguably the most in-form wide attacking player in the world in Farrat Skelia. And then you have Nuno Mendes who can come down that side as well and create havoc. And that means more running for Abukai Osaka, who's still, I think we know, dealing with a bit of an Achilles injury. So as Luis Enrique looks at this game, do you think it's going to be about how he exploits Arsenal on the right-hand side defensively if assuming Timber is not able to start?

59:51And would you agree that that's the area of most concern for Arsenal?

59:55Julien Laurens:Yeah, I think so. I think there's a lot of really interesting matchups all around the page, but you're right. That left flank via the right flank of Arsenal, left PSG flank against the right Arsenal flank is key, maybe the biggest key of all. Usually when PSG built with the ball, Hakimi is the most forward, the most in the rotations and all the permutations and all that movement, all that fluidity that we know well now. And Nuno Mendes is a bit of the one staying with Patro and Marquinhos and you build with the three and then a lot of variation again. Maybe for this game, you could have, even if Zaire Emery is on the pitch, although Zaire Emery is a midfielder, but maybe Luis Enrique might think, you know what, to exploit the Saka Mosquera side, Maybe we can build slightly differently and have Nuno Mendes far more involved in the build-up phase with Graz Kelly and have maybe Zaire Emery staying a little bit deeper with Marquinhos and Paco, work something out like that.

1:00:49Julien Laurens:Because I do think that Nuno Mendes and Graz Kelly could be a big problem for Arsenal on that side. I trust Mosquera. I think he's a good defender. He's learning very quickly. He's a good learner. He's a good listener and all of that. But Graz Kelly is just incredible so far. In those key games, We've seen him in Ligue 1 not really being asked, not bothered by playing against, I don't know, Angers or Lille or those kind of clubs. But every time it's a big game, he usually shows up. So he'll be the key. I think William Saliba has a big part to play too in helping out Mosqueira on that right-hand side.

1:01:23Julien Laurens:But yeah, I think that's where the game, I was going to say could be won. Not could be won, but a big part of it could have an impact from that side. obviously a very different kind of matchup than what psg just faced against bayern munich and arsenal coming off a very tight defensive semi-final against an atleti team that while their identity may not be defending the way it once was you know that's still what simione preferred to do in in that tie which is understandable and meanwhile you have that five four first leg against bayern munich a bit of a tighter one in germany but teams that are willing to commit a lot of players into the attacking third that are willing to play with a very high line.

1:02:04And so it's a shift in philosophy. And I'm curious, have PSG come up against anyone that you would analogize to this Arsenal team in terms of their defensive resoluteness and how PSG might change approach for this game versus the just open all-out attacking that we saw, especially in the first leg against Bayern Munich?

1:02:25Julien Laurens:Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? I don't think they've ever played against a team as good without the ball than Arsenal because they're the best in the world. I went to see Dembele and Luis Enrique last week in the PhD media there. And that's both what they said, like, but without even being asked or, you know, it's just, it came out naturally. This is the best team of position in the world. So how do you break down? Could you leave them the ball and say to Arsenal, okay, no problem. You know, we give you the ball and you have to do the work with the ball. And then we're going to try to maybe hit you in transitions.

1:02:55Julien Laurens:Like we saw, for example, PhDs two goals away at Liverpool, where they They were under pressure in that second half and left them the ball and then punished them twice with Embele in the counter-attacks. Maybe, although I think Arsenal are very, very solid to defend transitions. Again, to go back to that defensive structure that they have, which is world-class by far. Or maybe PSG can say, we can press you. You can play long if you want. We will come at you again. The good thing about this PSG team, really, and Luis Enrique was funny when I said to him, Do you think this team is better than the one that won the Champions League last year?

1:03:29Julien Laurens:And I'm not sure if he can really say yes, even if he thinks about it, but he certainly seems to agree and said, there's more things we can do this season with this team now than we could even last season. You saw against Bayern Munich in the second leg how well they defended, how coherent they were without the ball, far more than we've ever seen them before, really. And I'm not saying that they're going to play super deep against Arsenal and just invite them, but I think this is something that they have now that they can do even for 10, 15 minutes and then go again to press high and be super high and play in the opposition's half and have all those variation and fluidity within their structure that they're very good at with all those ballers that they have pretty much everywhere on the pitch.

1:04:11Julien Laurens:And I think this is tricky then for Mikel Arteta and Arsenal to decide what their game plan should be in a way because when you play against a team that can play with so many different variations, it's difficult. If there was one style, then for Arsenal, it'd be easy to prepare almost. Okay, this is what they're going to do. We know because they always do the same. Let's be prepared and do this to counter them. Now, I think it's a bit more difficult. So I think it'd be very interesting. I think, like I said, it'd be very tight. I don't think it's going to be a very pretty final in that sense, although tactically, I think it'd be quite interesting.

1:04:43Julien Laurens:But if you're a PhD, I think if you're Arsenal, more importantly, you need bowlers on that pitch. So for example, I would start Harvelds ahead of Jocares because of those technical abilities. I would probably play Aze on the left instead of Trossard or Martinelli. Because again, I think under pressure. And if you make the pitch dense and you put a lot of people around the ball, that's where you get at PSG. Because then they also commit a lot of people in those areas. But usually they win those areas and they recover the ball and then they recycle it and then they go again. If you get the ball before them and they go and get the ball off you then in those areas.

1:05:18Julien Laurens:So if you have, I think Luis Kelly for me has to start as well in that midfield. just for those reasons. He's so good against the press. He can keep the ball in tight areas when there's a lot of bodies there. And I think he's brilliant for that. So for me, Havertz, Eze, Luis Kelly. I mean, I would have played Zubi Mendy, but it's probably difficult because you need rice too. But I think there's something there for Arsenal to exploit. And a bit like what Bayern did in that first leg, that could have turned in their favour. But this time he's on neutral ground and over one game. But for Arsenal to have those ball playing players everywhere really very you know very good technically to be able to keep the ball or go at phd and really have a you know taking them at their own game really as well as being able to obviously utilize set pieces and be very strong without the ball you mentioned them so i think it's worth at least getting into it a bit set pieces obviously an area where arsenal can be devastating and i was at that burnley game it was not an enjoyable experience but it was set piece again.

1:06:18It was a beautiful Bukayo Saka delivery and a wonderful Kai Havertz header. It is something that Arsenal can rely on to change a game when open play is not providing that opportunity. So, any update from our conversation last season about how PSG will handle Arsenal set pieces?

1:06:36Julien Laurens:Yeah, I mean, it's one of the weaknesses, not as much as last season because Safonov is a little bit better than Donnarumma, India and crosses and things like that. We've seen him being quite good actually against English clubs who are not as good as Arsenal, but Liverpool are decent on set pieces this season, especially since they changed their set piece coach in January. Van Dijk has scored a lot of goals. Chelsea are not too bad and they're quite physical as well. So, but Safranov did really, really well in those games on long throws, on wide free kicks, on corners, all of that. So that's better than Donnarumma.

1:07:09Julien Laurens:But yet, I think PSG have considered 35 % of their goal on set pieces this season in all competitions. So there's clearly something there for Nicolas Jovert and Arteta and the Arsenal boys to look into. I don't know if you saw that video of the PSG keepers training, I think last week or the week before, where they were being pushed by like a kind of a bit like what rugby players use to tackle that training, you know? Okay. Similar things, yeah, or basketball, you know. So they were getting pushed by those like soft, massive cushions, if you want, almost like if you had Gabriel on you or Saliba pushing or you know those kind of guys or Hincapi or Calafari or whatever the club said that that's what they always train like to train on set pieces so maybe it's true I don't know or maybe it was something pre-Arsenal that they were already thinking about it but there's definitely something there and I think from a from a PSG point of view if you keep the game very central then the more central the game is the less opportunities Trossard or Saka or even who the fullbacks are in that game, we'll get a corner, right?

1:08:12Julien Laurens:Because if the ball is there centrally and there's nobody 1v1 on your wings, that the defender can put the ball out for a corner. If you don't do fouls wide, then you've got more chances of not to concede. So I think maybe the idea would be don't try to give them any corners, any wide free kicks, simply as simple as that. But we'll have to see, but I think set pieces will be, even if it's not a goal scored like that, it will bring danger in the PSG box without a doubt. And I think Arsenal will obviously use that. Yeah, always an opportunity for Arsenal to gain an advantage that they can't gain from open play.

1:08:47You mentioned getting more ballers on the pitch, and I do think this is the biggest decision point for Mikel is simply whether he wants to put a team on the pitch that can be devastating in transition, or he wants a team on the pitch that can try to compete with PSG for possession and on-ball technical quality. And we've seen at times Mikel go with lineups that lacks technical quality, and it hasn't been pretty. I think one of our worst periods of the season was when, admittedly, with very limited options, he was playing a Nani Medueke, Victor Jokeres, Gabriel Martinelli front three. And I think when he's played that front three, it's been some of the worst performances we've seen from Arsenal this season.

1:09:26I'm not suggesting he would go with that this time around, but I do think he has to make a decision around wanting to get some pace in the lineup that can hurt PSG in behind if they do try to play a high line. and that means deciding on starting a Gabriel Martinelli or a Victor Jokeres over a Kai Havertz. So in your estimation from PSG's perspective, have they been vulnerable or easy to exploit with pace in behind when they squeeze up the pitch or is that not really how you get at them? Would that be sort of playing into their strengths given that obviously they have tremendous pace in their wide defensive areas?

1:10:00Julien Laurens:No, no, I think there's something there. We saw Chelsea doing a little bit in the last 16, for example the problem is you also need I think for me a very mobile number nine to go back to the Harvest v. Gokeres points to be able to do that you can't just hoof the ball from I don't know Gabriel gets the ball back on the edge of the Arsene Boggs and just try to hoof it for Gokeres to run and by the way Gokeres runs Saka and Trossard will need to run as fast to be with him otherwise he's on his own and then there's Patjo and there's Marquinhos and there's Nuno Mane And personally, I don't think this is the game plan that should work.

1:10:39Julien Laurens:That's why I think for me, more than trying to hit PSG in transitions, because Saka is not that player and Trosa is not that player either. If you had, I don't know, like proper runners, if you had the Luis Diaz and a Barcola on each wing that you want to play like that, sure, no problem. But that's not the case. So for me, that's why I would go more to let's try to control that ball and let's try to almost beat PSG at their own game. The difficulty more for Mikel, I think, is that you need physicality too. If you can have physicality and technical ability, like, let's say, Kimmich and Pavlovich, for example, for a Bayern Munich double pivot, this is great.

1:11:18Julien Laurens:So I guess the Louis Kelly-Rice, I think the best would be Zubimendi and Louis, in a way, in Louis Kelly. But Rice-Louis Kelly, for me, would be a perfect double pivot. then is what you ask of Odegaard if he plays as the third midfielder or Eze or if Eze played wide what you ask of them when Arsenal is on the ball because obviously neither of them can be with Gokeres in transitions and sprint for 50 yards to try to be there in the box when Gokeres recovers the ball I think that's very very difficult so I'm not sure Arsenal have those players to play like that in transitions really and that's why I think more if you have ballers there everywhere on the pitch then you can match PSG in a very different style of positional play because I think PSG play positional football too, but with a lot of variation, which is not really the game at Arsenal.

1:12:10Julien Laurens:However, if you've got those ballers, I think you can match PSG quite well, especially if you make those areas quite dense, you know, with a lot of players. PSG have never been as good as, you know, being able to move the ball from right to left, you know, to take that time before finding something a bit special from somebody. and I think if you let them do this, then you'll have problems. If you don't and try to match that up because you could be as good with the ball than they are for sure if the right team is picked, then I think you cause them problems because then they will have to think.

1:12:42Julien Laurens:The thing about PhD is that they make you think, oh, where's Vitinha? Or where is John Evers? Where is Ruiz? And why is Dembele here? And how can Dembele find himself with space between the lines here? If you make them think about something similar, why is Havers between the line? You know, where is Luis Kelly? Where is Rice? Where is Odegaard coming this side? Same with Calafiore. For me, Calafiore has to start a left back and give him that kind of freedom that we've seen at times when he's been at his peak physically. Because then suddenly for Zaire Emery or Due, it's like, where is Calafiore?

1:13:12Julien Laurens:Why is Calafiore in my box? And then you asking questions to PSG that they're not usually used to answer to. And it's actually the question that usually PSG asks the opposition. And I think there's something there for Arteta and Arsenal to really exploit. Yeah, it is inevitable that at some point, I mean, you talk about the right double pivot for Arsenal. I mean, I still think this is Declan Rice's game in the sense that his ball recovery, his ability to recover huge distances of the pitch and get the ball back for Arsenal when it looks like something dangerous may be developing is going to be a part of this game.

1:13:52because inevitably at times PSG will find seams in the Arsenal organization and find ways to start running at the back four. And Declan Rice is going to have to be able to help out. So without that ball recovery, I don't know how we survive some of those moments. Those moments are going to happen. But that leads to sort of an interesting, I think, decision for Mikel too, just tactically, which is about pressing. Over the last several seasons, I think some of Arsenal's best ability to create chances has been through their press. and counter-pressing, recovering the ball, and creating chances when the opposition is not in their settled defense.

1:14:29But pressing PSG is obviously a very dangerous proposition. So do you think there is value in Arsenal trying to press PSG and trying to create those transitional opportunities, or is that a recipe for disaster?

1:14:43Julien Laurens:No, it's a good question again. I don't think the Arsenal press has been as efficient at times this year than last year, for example. And that may, to your point, to cut across you, but that's where I think the decision around Kai Havertz is important. I think Jokras has gotten better as a presser, but I think the best version of Arsenal's press has been with Kai Havertz up top. We saw him, I can't remember the game off the top of my head now, but he literally scored by taking the ball off the keeper and it went straight into the net. Well, thank you. That's right. It was against City to get us back to level.

1:15:14You'd think you'd remember that, but it is quite early for me. So yeah, I think that could be a reason to pick Kai, but sorry, carry on. No, no, no,

1:15:21Julien Laurens:No, no, you're absolutely right. I mean, we were saying it the other day. The first 20 minutes at the Paris des Princes last season in the semi-final second leg, before the Fabian Ruiz goal that comes against the run-off play, really, I haven't seen a team that put PSG under pressure so much than Arsenal did in those first 20 minutes. And we mentioned the other guard shot that miraculous save from Donnarumma. like Barcelona could easily have been 2-0 up after 10 minutes or 15 minutes and because their press was so good and PSG could not get out of their own half really the first time they did then they scored and that's again going back to those small margin etc etc but the press can work for sure if you look at Inter last season they were never even able to start thinking about the press because PSG were all over them and then started the game so well and then scored kind of early really early it can work It can definitely work.

1:16:17Julien Laurens:But the thing is, with this PSG team, you can't get it wrong. And that's the problem. And that's why I wonder, especially for a final, if it was over two legs, you know, you have time to recover. If it's a final and you press high and you miss it once and they go through you and they score, then suddenly the whole thing, the whole dynamic changes. So maybe the median block to start with certainly and just waiting for them a little bit might not be a bad idea because Kai, for me, will start. I'm convinced he will start. and because you've got Deck behind who will sweep everything up and remember the Rice-Louis Kelly double pivot last season in the semifinal home and away actually Arsenal didn't suffer so much from the fluidity and all those variations that we mentioned that amazed a lot of people and rightly so that Luis Enrique has built the Ruiz-Vitinha-Johaneves kind of triangle that is so difficult to play against because they're just everywhere at the same time right on top of Dembele dropping they've actually did quite well and yet the first goal at the mrs if you remember quite early on then belly finds himself arson were out to press high and then belly finds himself between between the lines turn plays for askelia where askelia plays him back and then he scores and so that's that's what i mean you can press and arsenal have the capacity to do that and i think could do it well but if you miss it once and this phd team found itself facing your goal then you'll be in trouble yeah and my My opinion is that Arsenal don't play well when they play scared of the opposition, that we play well when we play on the front foot.

1:17:48I thought that City game was an example of Arsenal being a protagonist in the game and looking better than we had in recent months. And that leads to sort of how you manage the game if it's close as it wears on and gets later into the game. And, you know, there's always a possibility that you wind up with 120 minutes to play. I do think Arsenal come into this game with quite a bit of depth available to them. And that's where I wanted to ask you about a possible edge, because depending on who he picks, if this game is close with 20 minutes to go or 10 minutes to go, he may have Jokeres and Martinelli and Nani Maduike and Zubamendi and Nkappie or Calthiore.

1:18:25He may have a lot of options on the bench to influence the outcome. I mean, if he doesn't start with an Odegaard or Eze, they could be an option off the bench. So is that an area that could be an advantage for us? I mean, how do you think PSG's bench will match up if it's a case where Luis Enrique feels he has to call on the substitutes to try to change the game late or even in extra time?

1:18:48Julien Laurens:Yeah, I think there's strength on the PhD bench too. You know, let's say Hakimi doesn't start because Zaire Emery is maybe fitter for a star in the Champions League final. Then you've got Hakimi can come on, Barcola can come on. You've got wide players like Kangin Lee, who is a very good option off the bench. You know, I don't think he's world-class, but for 15 minutes, 20 minutes, if he has to keep the ball, he's so good technically that he can do that for you. Gonzalo Ramos is a little bit different. He would only come on, I think, if PSG need a goal and have to come back in the game. But he's been decent off the bench this season as well.

1:19:23Julien Laurens:And then you've got the youngsters like Mayulu, who have a lot of energy, who play with that kind of no pressure. You know, I'm 19, 18, and Bailly's the same and can go and have an impact too with just the energy and the heart that they can show on the pitch. And I think you're right. For Arsenal, that could be key as well. That bench could be massive, really, maybe more than in any other game this season. Because whether the game turned your way or not, if it's a tight draw, if it's nil-nil after 17 minutes, if it's heading to extra time, then what do you do? And that's why I think the best thing for Arsenal was to win the title, full stop, anyway, because I think it would have been a disaster had they lost it on the last day of the season than to go into this final.

1:20:05Julien Laurens:So the pressure is off massively. I think the other thing is that that Crystal Palace game didn't matter, where it could have mattered, and maybe Mikel would have played the strongest XI in that Sunday game. That was not the case. That's great because they would probably more or less have the same time to kind of rest and recover before the final than PSG had when they played the weekend before the last game of the season in the league. So that's very good. And I think, yes, the fitness, especially if it's quite hot in Budapest on Saturday, even with Kikov being earlier too, by the way, three hours earlier than what it usually is, I think the tiredness and the lack of energy could play a big part.

1:20:45Yeah, and that'll be interesting to watch. I think having Mikel Marino back, for example, could be very big. I don't expect him to start, but if balls are having to be thrown into the box late, he's a player who could come on and make a difference there. We saw, obviously, he scored in the first leg offside from a set piece, but still, he's always a danger there. So then it wouldn't be fair if I let you go without asking for some kind of prediction, what you expect. just before I do that let me just ask you this one last thing though experience obviously PSG won it last season Arsenal not PSG don't go through the ringer over their league season like Arsenal do a lot's been made of how few minutes they have in their legs and that's why they're so able to run the course in the Champions League just in terms of Arsenal having been under this pressure and now it's relieved but PSG having the experience of having won this last season where do you think the combination of experience, pressure lands in terms of giving one side or the other an advantage here.

1:21:36Julien Laurens:Yeah, I think to have played last season is huge, really huge. Even in the way you approach the game, even in the fact that the fact that you'd never won it, which is, you know, the case for Arsenal is not the case anymore for PSG. The possibility from this PSG team to go back to back, which would take you into another dimension, into suddenly the conversation of one of the greatest teams just in European football history because they're so rare. You know, Barth, Real Madrid, they're like the 50s to have done five in a row. And then the great Bayern with Beckenbauer and Ajax with Cruyff. Then you look at Saki and Milan and then Zidane and Cristiano and Real Madrid, and then that's it.

1:22:18Julien Laurens:So you all belong with them. You belong with those kind of teams. The greatest of greatest of greatest, really. So that is huge for PSG. And the pressure is very different than last season for them, obviously, because this is a pressure to get somewhere where you never thought you would be 18 months ago, for example. So it's huge. And I do think for Arsenal, apart from Kai Havertz, who is the only one, I believe I might be wrong, but just on top of my head, I've played the Champions League final before in the Arsenal squad. Yeah. Then, and okay, who won it and played a big part in it. It's difficult.

1:22:58Julien Laurens:Even if there's less pressure because the title is won in the league, which was the objective at the start of the season, not the Champions League. Now that you win it, you obviously want to win it. But the pressure, I think, will be high. So I think those players are used to pressure. Sure, because I've played Euros final and everything like that. And others too, you know, William Saliba. A lot of them have a lot of experience of those big games. But this is the biggest of all at club level. And I do think that that could play a part. Let's say PSG start really well and put pressure on Arsenal, maybe score the first goal.

1:23:29Julien Laurens:Then how do you react to that? I think it's going to be quite interesting to see. So what's your expectation? What happens? You know, my problem is that, okay, maybe there's a bit more PSG in me, but not too much, really. I don't want anybody to lose, obviously. Well, you got yours last season. Yeah, exactly. Give us ours. No. I think it would be tight. Again, I think it's a one-hit win, a 2-1 win for somebody. and I think if there's one team that really can cause problems to Arsenal to PSG is Arsenal in the way they control the tempo in the way they control the rhythm of a game plus the set pieces I still think my PSG boys look good you know and that front three of Varskeli Dembele and Dway is so so good yeah I would go 1-0 PSG but yeah you know you know I'm going to sell I'll be happy regardless in a way Yeah, you can't lose.

1:24:29Julien Laurens:Yeah, you know where I like that. I can't win, but I can't lose. But, you know. Yeah, that's fair. Well, I do think it will be close. I will say, I think these are the two best teams in Europe. I think Bayern Munich are excellent, but we dispatched them handily in the league table phase of the Champions League. I think these are two best teams. I think it's the best possible final. I think it is a coin toss. I would love for it to be Bakayo Saka's final. That's my one thing. He's due for a big game on a big stage, and I just have this feeling. Maybe he's just getting fit enough. Maybe the pressure, the title being off, I could see Bakayo Saka having a big game.

1:25:01So that's my hope of how we'll turn the tie.

1:25:03Julien Laurens:But for now... Yeah, for William Saliba as well, you know, Paris is born and bred. Paris means everything to him. Now he's a London boy, obviously. But even for him to play against his hometown and potentially, I know he rarely scores. But, you know, being part of a team that can take him to the Champions League. And we were saying with the kids last night, if William Saliba wins the Champions League on Saturday and then has a great World Cup, For me, he's in the conversation for Ballon d 'Or win. You know, the Premier League, the Champions League, maybe the World Cup with France are certainly doing really well and going far.

1:25:32Julien Laurens:He's already, for me, the best defender in the world. If you add the World Cup and the Champions League to the Premier League already won, I can't see who else could win the Ballon d 'Or. So, you know, there's a lot at stake for the two clubs, obviously, for all of us fans, whoever you prefer to win, but also for a lot of those players. Yeah, I mean, Saliba, Declan Rice, Pakaio Saka, obviously Dembele on PSG side. He's won it already. I mean, these are players that put themselves in that conversation again if they win this. So it's the biggest club football match there is. It's a privilege to be in it.

1:26:02And it's great to be in it against a team that maybe we have a little bit of something to prove against and the holders. So it's a chance to really earn our stripes. And for anybody that wanted to dismiss the Arsenal title in any way in terms of quality, you win this game. No one can say anything about you. You are absolutely the best in the world. So it's a huge opportunity. Julian, I know it's a very hectic time for you. I wish you safe travels out to Budapest. I hope to maybe bump into you there and hope to see you slightly sad. Because you can't be sad anyway, but just slightly sad at full time.

1:26:34Okay, we're going to leave it there. Thanks to Julian, and we look forward to speaking to him ahead of next season's Champions League final as well. Thank you.

1:26:53Thank you.