Demolition Derby

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39:36Elliot:indeed clive smart people like myself say smart things all the time that's what it means to be smart if you are an intelligent orator like myself you are going to say lots of smart things and one of the smart things that I said a couple of them not only should we sell Leo Troussard in the summer and that it was questionable to give him a pay rise for no reason but also that he likely would have no access to minutes because of course Arsenal would have full fitness all season making it difficult for him to break into the squad now those things I don't want to say they were wrong I want to say they were historically stupidly wrong uh and I have said in recent times how wrong they are and it is important to acknowledge when you're wrong we showed our faith in Leo we gave him the pay rise we showed him how important he was to our group and he's rewarded Arsenal with performances and when it comes to Leo Troussard.

40:34Mikel Arteta said something. He was asked, could Leo have left in the summer and his performance day? He said, yeah, for me, no, because for me, it was forbidden for him to leave. No chance. I know the player that he is and surrounded with the players that we have. He's a player that is going to make a difference for us. I fully agree. It was one of the best games. So aggressive with him without the ball. So effective. He could have scored another one or two goals and he was involved in so many positive actions. That's what we need. And as I said individually, the players were excellent today.

41:00Clive, Leo was brilliant. I'll tell you something though. I'm with Mikel. The aggression in this game was different. He, we were playing out balls to him. He had Jed Spence on skates, on toast, all game. Jed Spence wasn't winning long balls. He wasn't winning duels. The Jed Spence penitentiary, all the inmates were just pouring out of it. Okay. Um, this was, this was a big, big day for Leo who, in addition to the goal that gets us going i thought influenced every phase of play yeah highly intelligent player he

41:30Elliot:knows that jess bentz is faster than him so what he does the moment jess bentz looks down at his boots he shoots off in behind him and he's got a couple yards he's just very clever he dummies you know keeps people on balance he dummies short goes long and vice versa he's just very clever when he gets the ball to his feet he doesn't waste a touch by not making the player his opponent be unbalanced so he'll chop an angle and chop another angle so straight away now he's in charge of the attacking jaw because he's got them where they want them to be and he's just very wise i think sometimes with footballers you you get to a certain age where you know the game but your legs fail you because you don't take too long to get there he knows the game but he's so efficient with his physicality and what he does with his body i think he's got better touch wood he's been really robust he's got loads of appearances um he's known to be someone that looks after himself really really well again he knows who he is he knows his body and there was a previous game when he went down injured actually um we actually lost his um he got his ankle raked the he got studs down his ankle and then stepped on his foot yeah it looked kind of nasty to be honest yeah and he was down for one i was a bit worried right and um because we needed him i felt we needed him and He was really doing well on that side.

42:49Elliot:But the game lost momentum when he was down, and I felt it was a key moment. We got it back when we scored, obviously. But he's just clever. He's just wise and clever, and technically, his finishing is really, really good. And, yeah, the thing that shook me this year, it's just what we're seeing and what we're all reading, is how he's developing into one of the team's leaders, right? So he's been in a while, but he looks like it now, doesn't he? He's really, really part of it. He's earned everything that he's got, you know? So, yeah, I'm a fan of him from a game understanding point of view. And I keep saying it, there needs to be a podcast about him because without his goals and assists, where would we be?

43:30Elliot:Since he signed, I think Phil quoted this the other day, and I think it's right. I think he has the most goals and assists output of any Arsenal player since signing non-penalty goals and assists, yeah. I can't even imagine it. When we signed him, well, we did loads of videos on Muitric, didn't we? I watched every comp in the world on that guy. Honestly, I was sold until the money went high. Imagine if we didn't have him. That was a definite moment where it landed the right way for us, shall we say. The less said about that other timeline, the better. I'm glad we're living in this timeline. Let's just say that.

44:04I wonder, too, sometimes who you train with can influence your performances. And Tim, I have to say, I see some Bakayo Saka in Leo Troussard. And what I mean by that is the way he rolls a defender, the way he's learning to use his body to get a guy on his hip. They're both, they have that low center of gravity, big, strong legs. They're able to hold players off with their backside. And he's doing some of those things that I think Saka does. And you saw it again, Spence, where he'd get his backside into him. He'd let him get tight and then he'd roll him to the inside so he could set up a play. I mean, he had, is it for one of the goals?

44:35I think he plays a ball out to Saka from a central space. He rolls his man and then he spins the ball out to Saka. really beautiful he's also his intelligence to know where to go it has come up levels I mean he he knows when to be in the middle he knows when he needs to be on the outside he just seems to really understand his role in this team so I I I think it's wonderful and it is always I think as fans hard to get away from the what's our best 11 you know what I mean that's a thing fans do I do I think we all do. Oh, but is he in our best 11? And while those are things that are natural as fans, for players, I think if you just get your head down and get to work, opportunities present themselves, especially if you're at the level.

45:20And whatever you think our best 11 is, or however many starts you think Leo's going to get in a season, somehow he finds a way to make himself undroppable. And he's been a key, key part of this season. And he was a star in this game, I thought. Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that's really interesting about trossard talking a minute ago about the different profiles of player we have trossard has all the profiles that's what's really fascinating about him when we bought him from brighton a lot of um the focus was on his versatility and we were thinking of that i think in terms of brighton even used him as a wingback like on both sides you know used him as a false nine used him as a 10 the interesting thing about the way we've used him almost entirely off the left you know he's had some games as false nine but we don't even really do well in a sense we don't do that he pops up in those positions and what's really interesting about him is he's almost malleable player I think and that's why he's been like he just takes on whatever the team needs him to be so like I've said before I thought his he had a great season last season he really did but I think people noticed it yet less because his assists went up so I think 23-24 I think he gets something like 12 goals and one assist in the Premier League and obviously the goals get all the headlines and then last season I think he got eight goals and seven assists or seven goals and eight assists or something he got more goal contributions it's just it flipped to the more creative side because we lost a load of players and all of a sudden he became very important to build up and I think what's what's so fascinating and what's so kind of his biggest strength is just like a chameleon like whatever the team needs him to be he can assume that form and I think it's really incredible that like we found his versatility but in a very new way like he's always pretty much playing the same position even think of the end of last season when we were first playing Marino up front Trossard was the one who was going out to the right quite a lot and um you know like he just he just seems to be able to do whatever we need him to do at any any given point i think there are some intangibles as well and uh james was talking about this on the ask cast earlier i thought it was a really good point in terms of like he's 30 31 if he ever wants to win the league or the champions league it's got to happen now basically for him and arsenal didn't extend his contract either they gave him pay rise but they didn't extend his contract like it's close to now or never for him and i think i think he probably knows that and having and he's already i think an incredibly competitive person and another interview that always sticks in my mind is that one ramsdale did when ramsdale seemed to be appearing on more podcasts than us um when he first saw when things were going quite well for our own we gotta make a living here he was he was behind the mic a lot when things were going well for him um and uh but he gave an interview and he was talking about trossard and he said like a lot of people it was just after he arrived he said a lot of people were looking at it as a squad signing but he said leo trossard has not come here to be a squad player uh he said in his mind he's come to take a shirt and i think you still see that even now like madueke has come in ez has come in and all right a lot of this is opportunity because of injuries but it's just like you know and and it's a wonderful position to be in as well in terms of reintegrating some of these players from injury we don't have to rush Odegaard in like we did last season where we stuck him back in the team every minute of every game when he probably wasn't right Madueke we can just give him five minute like a fun run for five minutes at the end of the North London derby when we're 4-1 up and we don't have to rush him in like it's just a really nice position to be in it it'll be it'll be the same for Havertz when he eventually comes back it'll be like okay you're a really important player your time's going to come but you know your careers Marino are there you know we we can reintegrate some of these guys a little bit more slowly and a lot of that will be because you won't be able to get some of these some of these players out and I also think just to close this sometimes I feel really guilty saying this because I love the guy but even having like a ben white in his position in the squad at the moment probably has a use for the other players in terms of look at how much work this guy did look at and and probably still does look at how important he was he can't get on the pitch at the moment because that's the level and it's not his fault it's like don't miss too much football guys because Because, you know, you might - Don't get your spot back.

50:12Yeah, Urien Timber, Leo Trossard. Like, it's not going to be easy to get your shirt back off those guys. Yeah, there's a certain poetic justice to the first goal in the Derby being created by and scored by players who, at the end of this transfer window, I would have thought were a bit surplus to requirements. How's Marino going to get on the pitch? How's Leo going to get on the pitch? Well, they're not just on the pitch. They're on the pitch, making the decisive moment happen in the Derby. I mean, it's, um, and it's a beautiful testament again, I think to the manager building a squad where everyone stays invested and feels valued.

50:46Um, I think there's not much to say about it and I, I don't want to overdo it, but we should at least mention that without Gabby, we had to pick a center back and Mikkel went with the lefty on the left-hand side, which, you know, we, we probably should have just assumed that's what he's going to do. I thought it'd be mascara, but it makes a lot of sense, you know, for it to be in capier and Clive. I have nothing negative to say i mean the problem is right we faced an opponent who had so little interest in contesting the match that it's hard to really analyze in capier too deeply and i don't want to go over the top just because of the enthusiasm of the moment but i thought he did well where i thought he did really well is he looked very comfortable on the ball so that we could progress the ball but it's it's a good soft introduction for in capier i mean the irony is you think wow first start at center back in the derby couldn't have been easier you know yeah you still got to your job you still got to look right you still got to take away the feeling of vulnerability so we

51:44Elliot:we lose our most dominant defender so whoever comes in is not going to be as dominant as him how do you then come into the team and bring something else and i thought he was very good technically i thought he he tracked his men quite far i mean i think he made a tackle in the box a position box one time so he wasn't afraid to really be disruptive i think he'll get he'll get better at that and he'll get tighter at that as well and be even more aggressive i think that was really good to see you know tim spoke about the everton game earlier on that's why the game stays in my mind and one of the things that stays in my mind about that game was i felt our technical level was quite low on the day and i looked at the pitch yesterday and i thought technically we look really good so many people are good on the ball and i include in capi in that balls coming in it's accurate it's crisp body shapes are right going in the right direction pace a pass, turning away from danger, knowing when to just clear it.

52:37Elliot:I'm loving this about the group. Just clear the ball. Don't worry about it. Don't try to keep it in an area where you're not sure of your bearings. Go back to goalkeeper, people under pressure. Just clear it. Deal with it. And players like Trussard, they're reading that and they're going in behind. It's really good to see it. I was one for Muscara as well. Not massively. I chose the physical element, Elliot, you know, just the bigger guy. But it didn't really matter. And I thought I said on the IR yesterday, if you've got four lefties in your left-hand defensive unit and you lose one, then the manager then brings a right footer over to play the left-centre half, those lefties will feel a little bit discouraged, you know?

53:20Elliot:So, you know, there's a good chance that Miles might play in the week. You know, you can see that coming. And that means everyone's active in the squad. I mean, Tim has spoken about this from the women's side of things before, or in the season, there wasn't enough players in the squad active. If they're active, when they have to come in, they can deliver. And so this is a really big moment for the activity of our squad. It's a big week for it. I think we're going to see the next couple of games, we're going to see a little bit of movement, just because of the nature and intensity of the games that we're playing.

53:48My theory for the centre-back decision is very, very much about aerial duels. Again, I revisited the profile Phil wrote about Mascara. on our blog when we signed him. And I think last season he was 45 % for aerial duels. This season he's 36%. Incape won all three of his aerial duels yesterday. And I think with Tottenham, I mean, they didn't get close enough to get corners or long throw-ins, but I suspect the calculus was much more in big Gabby. We've lost a big aerial presence and that's what we need to replace against this particular opponent. I still think we'll see Muscara and he did play left center back at Valencia mainly.

54:31Elliot:So, yeah. Yeah, funny enough to him, please say that, because I, in my mind, without looking at his data, had Mascara as better in the air than that. But that's true, right? So, yeah, I'm hoping he's going to be re-improving in that space because I think he's really dominant. And Mascara has played a lot of football for Valencia, but he is quite a bit younger, right? I mean, he's 21. Incappier is about to be 25, I believe, in January. um he's 24 i think he's 24 currently about to be 25 right i think he's 23 currently 23 about to be 24 okay yeah yeah that same thing really if you think about if you think about this the age of the universe those things are really the same no he's about to be 24 as you said but you know a two-year and a half age gap there um obviously he plays for his national team so maybe a little more top level football experience having played for levercus in in a title run versus playing for Valencia a little bit of a different kind of um experience there so maybe the experience factor is is a part of it um but we're lucky to have both of them obviously I think like I said the thing that makes it hard is Spurs really were not in this game um but but Clive I am I think that one thing that can happen sometimes when a player achieves a very high level every podcast can sound like a hagiography like you're just there to praise them and I don't want to do that I want to find a way to be analytical in our analysis of certain things, but I'm running out of ways to be analytical about Declan Rice because he's able to influence the game in every third and in every kind of contribution, right?

56:08So off the ball with his ball recovery is extraordinary. I think he led us in final third entries passing today in the absence of Odegaard, as we've discussed, his touches have come up, his passes have come up, his ball progression has come up. He's a little unlucky not to score. If anything, he hits that too sweetly. And that is a really tough technique, by the way. The ball's coming kind of over his shoulder, keeps the knee down, hits it on the volley beautifully. He plays the ball into Eza for Eza's first goal, I think, right? But when he slides it immediately to him first time, he just, he's, he's worked on his game, you can tell, because now he's not just a specialist at carrying and recovering the ball.

56:44He's, he's doing a lot of everything and that moment like i said where he just bodied shabby siemens there's also a clip going around one of the clips that the club put out i think it was at three no you can hear him say let's kill them you know like he's just it doesn't it doesn't matter who wears an armband but kai osaka wore the armband and he's our star boy star man and it's great that he wore the armband i think the armband discussion can be a little bit tedious at times leadership isn't just about who puts on an armband and he exhibits a lot of leadership in the way he plays

57:16Elliot:yeah I think he's really the guy that pushes momentums now when they scored he he sort of jumped out a little bit on a couple of presses and got bypassed a bit and they got a couple of transitions but the fact he took it on himself to go and get the ball and be aggressive is actually I quite like that not let the game come to you go and get it again so he's the guy that drives all the different momentums and maybe that's where he has replaced Odegaard from that side of things because I think Odegaard reads the game as well. He reads the mention of the game, maybe slows it down a little bit when it needs to be and speeds it up.

57:49Elliot:And Declan Rice has done that. I think, just think back to when he came, right? We knew he was good. We knew he could whack it diagonals. We knew he could get around the pitch and win duels. But I think his technical level, he's really gone up there massively. His ball striking is superb. Just look at his left foot. So again, just look at, do you remember when he used to come? He never used to see the ball on his left foot and then roll out of it. Now he's doing it continuously. Sometimes he's playing passes of his left foot. He's using that side of his body a lot more, which opens up the pitch to him a lot more.

58:20Elliot:Yeah, I mean, this is where the manager does not get enough credit for his player development. You know, this guy was a very good player, McJoy. That's hence why he cost that number. But I think he's gone through the roof, technically, intelligence-wise. Now, England used to use him in the six. Now they wouldn't dream of it, you know, because he's got so much to offer. And that's, again, that's good use of resources. But you've got a player that good. Why would you restrict his role? You would open his role, wouldn't you? You'd make him do more than one job. Consistent thing I've been saying for a while.

58:53Elliot:But yeah, my one worry about this team is those centre mid-two. I think they are absolutely fantastic. And I, in every other position, I look around and think, we're all right. We could do something. Even Kepa, he's fine. He plays like Rea. He'd get up to speed. He was excellent for Bournemouth last season. We've got full-backs cover. We've got center-back cover. Okay, you don't want to lose Saka for too long, but we've got something there. This Rice and Ziv-Mendy thing, I think their intelligence has brought something else to us. I think it might have been the Forest game, Tim, where I think Rice sat out and Marino played in the eight and they did really, really well.

59:36Elliot:And Marino had probably his best number eight game. but I don't want them to act in too often and that's not right it's going to happen you know it's going to happen and how we deal with that is going to be interesting because Norgard for me is much more of a somebody that should relieve Supermandy of minutes but I want Supermandy to start every game I want Rice to start every game and I know that's inconsistent because you know what I'm like because a player is starting every game it's not going to happen but that's what I see on the pitch I think they are the brain of this team now you know and that's I worry about that.

1:00:10Elliot:I worry about that. And look, when the captain goes out, when Martin Odegaard goes out, the guy who was responsible for ball progression, who often had among the most touches in the game, along with usually like a Saliba or something, someone's got to elevate their game. And that person has been Declan Rice, Clive. I mean, he had the most touches in this game. Just as you were talking, I thought, you know what, when Odegaard does come back, the player that he might end up not replacing, but rotating with more than we realize, maybe Supermendy. you know you can see that just because of the role we saw it it was it was west ham right because it was rice odegaard and asa yeah yeah and i just think you know there's something there and look every game's different right we know that but it's gonna be interesting what happened because odegaard will come back and he's not a bad footballer and he will drive decisions right but you look at how he you know in in nba terms you'd say fills up the box score a player who fills up the box score is someone who, you know, scores a lot of baskets, gets a lot of rebounds, has a lot of steals, has a lot of block shots.

1:01:10Well, Declan Rice had the most touches, had the most passes into the final third, created the most chances in the game, had a near goal, right? I mean, a little bit unlucky. He's an old court player, right? All court. Yeah, that's another way we'd put it, right? A lot of tackles, a lot of ball recoveries, wins his duels. He does a little bit of everything. And he has the unique quality, and I think you need players like this. I think Declan Rice is better in second halves than first halves right he grows into game as much like he grows into seasons when his legs start going and warm up that big body of his limbers up a little bit and he really comes into it it's it's fantastic we have to talk about their goal just briefly I don't want to spend much time on it Tim but I'll just say this I think there are people that will say it's a Zubimendi error and it is in the sense that he gets robbed there's some people that might say a taller goalkeeper gets that and let's be honest a taller goalkeeper does get to that.

1:02:03But like, that's not... That is how it works, yeah. That is how it works, yes. But I also watched it enough times that I'm like, you know what? It's just a really excellent piece of skill from a player who has a good decision because when Zubamendi loses the ball, both center backs are in position. If he decides to get his head down and run at our center backs, he gets the ball taken off and more we stuff out the danger. The fact that in that moment, in the one split second available to him, he decides to try to lob the keeper and he hits it with the perfect, perfect trajectory to get under the bar and over his hand it's an excellent moment of play yes Zubamendi shouldn't lose it there but we're in our structure and I think the fact that we're in our structure and the fact that Spurs had been such limited participants in the game you're probably dropping your intensity a little it's a good lesson Mikkel can point to it and be like this is why you can't drop even for a second and it was annoying but I don't know that I think it needs a lot of blame assigned to it you know no and and look we conceded a goal like that to them in pre-season as well when it was it was lewis skelly that got robbed probably got fouled and we are and it's it's happened to us before as well we are actually seeing more of this sort of goal all over the clock just look at the scotland goal against denmark um last week as well um and and And yeah, and maybe we should, no, not maybe, we should tighten up on that a little bit.

1:03:27Like if that's how we're conceding goals, if that's like a kind of popular route to goal against us, I'm okay with that. My counter to that, Tim, is you get 10 shots at that. You're lucky if you score one of them. You know what? That's the kind of chance I can live with. No, no, exactly. Yeah, that's what I mean. like what's what's your tactic as the opposing managers keep it tight and hope we can get a 45 yard lob yeah exactly for me for me the the thing much more is is Zubimendi that's that's more where I'd kind of lay the fault and it's I want to go and watch the game back because I'm always so tense during these games I know like the two or three minutes before I was like their intensity is dropping their intensity is dropping I can see it I can see they think they've won this game and I had that derby from two seasons ago in my mind where again with three nil up we're absolutely the game's kind of won and then we let them back into it and I'm thinking like don't do that don't do that because even if even if Tottenham don't have enough to come back and like get a result or threaten to get a result you just make the game harder for yourself like it wasn't particularly really interesting to watch, but the Burnley and West Ham games in the last block that we win 2-0, the last 35 minutes of those games are a tough watch because we shut the game down and nothing happens.

1:04:56But I'm much happier to see that than I am to see like, and you're right, I think it is a lesson and maybe like for Zubamendi as well. It's a bit like this is a North London derby. Like it doesn't stop even when they're absolutely rubbish. and we're 3-0 up, they will try and take the ball off you and smash it in from 45 yards. So, yes, I use it as a lesson. And I do think Arteta's been trying to do that in some of these games, even these games we've won. He's been a bit like, you know, what was it he said against Burnley, like we dropped our standards and stuff. He's still, I think, looking for stuff to keep the motivation and the intensity high.

1:05:33And look, maybe this will have a use because of that, because he can point to it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm fine with that. Look, it didn't really add jeopardy into the match because Spurs had so little to offer other than, I think, two Chavisiemanns speculative shots from outside the box. That was all they managed the whole game. And it was a massacre. It was a complete massacre. It was a fun day. It was a funny day. It was a day. What I loved about it, and I said this on the instant reaction, but I think it bears repeating. Of course I would think that.

1:06:08The narrative about Arsenal this season that I think has been unfair is, oh, they're just defense merchants or set piece merchants. They're the ugliest team. They don't know how to play. And we rock up to this game without our recognized strikers and without our captain and without some players, fine, whatever. Without Gabby, our set piece heart and soul. And this is a game everyone's going to be watching. The North London Derby is always good entertainment. Everyone's going to watch it. It was on for the whole world. It's an island game, nothing else going on. And we played great football. And we played great football with players that aren't necessarily recognized as the stars for us.

1:06:42And we played such great football that the opposition weren't really participants in the game. And for anybody who wanted to laugh at us, we now have the most open play goals in November, right? We have the most goals in the league. We really, I think, stamped our authority on the game and the league and the narrative in such a way that it's going to be very hard for people to try to rewrite it. And I love that that happened in a game with such visibility on it. Clive, I saw some grumbling that Mikel should have done more subs sooner or like protected players more. I have to admit the fact that Timber played all 90 minutes.

1:07:18I mean, I don't know if Ben White's going to start against Bayern Munich. I'd be stunned if that's the case, but I was sort of surprised that Timber played all 90. Were you surprised by any of the sub patterns or, you know, the fact that like a guy like Timber who has been, I mean, it's hard to say a player that's seasoned candidate because they all are at this point, but a guy who's so important to us stayed out there the whole 90.

1:07:38Elliot:Yeah, there's a few minutes stacking into people. You know, we might see some changes at fullback on Wednesday. And if you do, then so be it. So I think I've got memories of the four, four years ago when I was sitting there making dinner arrangements and suddenly they scored two goals. And so I didn't want to be part of anything where we're three and up in the derby and we don't win it. so i just don't care after games oh we could have made a few times mate during the game i'm thinking no no no no no let's make sure we bury these right we can talk about it later you know um that's how i feel bury them and let's have a discussion but i i'm fine with it um i think um like i said i think you saw kind of fury limping towards the end i don't think you saw that tim on the pitch he was cramping i think he was great was it cramp yeah yeah i think so because gabriel lines apparently was on the touch lines screaming in a minute get up and run it off it was definitely like around his hip though which is where he had the problem that's definitely the area he was that's interesting but they were stretching it i guess like he certainly ran it off and played on it for a little while he was subbed at the 90th minute i think yeah yeah so i don't expect to see him on wednesday and so but that's all right isn't it because we gotta we know our players now you know we we can tell when they're edging towards an injury because normally the game before they have a 7 out of 10 performance or 6 and a half out of 10 before you can see it and i think i said earlier the gabriellian tree maybe that was in the post from sunderland you know and um he didn't have his best game there he wasn't quite his normal self right and i'm with you on timbrellet sometimes you can see when something's coming with a player so maybe we'd all want timbrellet to play against chelsea wouldn't we so yeah we need to make sure that he's well looked after and this is the moment i feel not to say rotate per se but just know your players just know who they are you know you want saka play he has a million touches right but he he picked he knows when to rest on the pitch he's very smart that now so he might do a 90 but he's clever with it you know but again when it's gonna be interesting to see what we do and what team we pick but yeah i'm with you maybe a little bit more but at the time i wouldn't have changed the damn thing yeah and i think the team's learning how to rest in games too and I have to admit I'm learning some things a little bit because things that I used to be frustrated about like where's our urgency you can't just urgently run at a brick wall that doesn't work so sometimes if a team is not showing aggression to come at you you have to just possess the ball in certain areas and allow time for to move things around and for players to move around or to drop their focus you have to allow the game to provide you the moments because football is fundamentally a moments sport, right?

1:10:28This was a team that played at a thousand miles an hour, the first few seasons, you know, that we started to contend. And we've seen the impact of that with injuries, but you also see the impact of that in terms of being sustainable over the, over the course of the season. I think we are learning to, maybe it's that Tai Chi thing or not Tai Chi, whatever it is, the, the, the martial art where you let people come on to you a little bit more and it's all defense. Anyway, someone will tell me in the comments I'm sure but it's the point that we we possess the ball and let let the game come to us at times and I I'm learning to be comfortable with that um I want to quickly talk city and Liverpool in the Bayern game before we get out of here so um Tim just a last thought on the subs I think it's great that two of our academy kids got on you know that Ethan and Miles were able to be out there and be a part of a special day it will mean something to them even if it wasn't as big a role as they might have liked.

1:11:21But we did see the return of Nani Madoike. He did play a decent chunk of minutes, and I thought he looked bright. You know, there wasn't a lot of jeopardy left in the game, but I thought it was a bright return. And I couldn't decide if that means that McKell sees him as ahead of Martinelli for the left wing role. But I actually think, I don't think I saw Martinelli warm up. So my guess was, I don't think Martinelli was really fit to play. Sometimes you see this players are fit enough for the bench, but there's actually no plan to use them. My guess is they were encouraged not to use them unless they absolutely had to.

1:11:55So I think that was probably more of it. What'd you make of Nani though? Yeah. I mean, Madueke trained the day before the Sunderland game, I think. So clearly like quite a way ahead in, in terms of fitness. And yeah, I think we discussed it on the Sunderland pod. Like it would have been nice if, if, if we could have that five minutes of him running around like a lunatic. Uh, well, I know it's more than five minutes, but him running around like a lunatic in the North London derby, I think, and I'm not like, I don't know enough about his medical situation to say he definitely could have done that at Sunderland.

1:12:27But I'm saying if he could have, I think we win that game. I think one attacking, senior attacking sub, and we win that game. And so it's quite pleasing to see him come along, come on and, you know, just like run around quite a lot. And, you know, to the conversation we had about Leo Trossard, he's going to have to run around because otherwise he's not going to get on the pitch. so that was a very um particularly because he was on the left on the dugout side that was a very um you've probably seen this clive like when you're coaching someone's on your side and they're trying to get in the team and you know they're they're very uh did you see that did you did you see me yeah yeah pointing i'm chasing stuff down you saw that yeah yeah um it actually reminds me of an anecdote i think tony pulis had adama traore when he was younger and what pulis used to do was swap traore over um and so he was always on dug outside because he was like he ran a lot harder he'd chase back a lot more when he was on dug outside so i always used to swap him um but yeah and like again we just we need these players back though i think we saw at the end of the last block It was 15 minutes too far for them.

1:13:41It's great that we're in a position where we can ease them back in and we don't have to use Martinelli. We give Odegaard a little bit more time, but we're going to need all of these guys. And that's the lesson of someone like Trossard as well. Again, that Arteta can point to and say, look at how important this guy has been. And quite a lot of people wouldn't have bet on that in August. Yeah, Clive, you also had a, I think you said you observed Mikel giving Nani a rollicking at one point.

1:14:13Elliot:Yeah, he didn't quite get back into defensive position and he's 4-1 at the time, right? And I am beyond happy. And I just see Mikel just waving his arms at him, get back, get back, get back. And he literally roasted him. And then Nani gets back and he's like, it's okay, boss. You know what I mean? It's okay. and yeah and it just shows me there's nothing to chance Elliot they're leaving nothing to chance and everyone's doing the work on that today they highlight Eze running back to defend and go back out sprinting to Kudos I think and back to the goalkeeper you've got to do it right you've got to do it you've got to do your work you've got to be able to do it you've got to have the capacity to do it you know how important it is and then the goalkeeper gives it back to Eze and Eze clipped it down the line accurately and that level of technical quality and defensive quality in one player same for all the others and they know the rules right they know the rule this is what you gotta do to play if you don't do it you won't play right so let's let's don't be the one that lets everyone down you know when zudmendy travels across the peak that's a technical mistake that the two defenders were split wide to receive the ball so there was a gap right we're in offensive shape to receive the ball he didn't You didn't drop it off.

1:15:28Elliot:That's all right. Just don't do it again, right? But he won about a million headers and was fantastic passing. So it's not a problem. I think, yeah, I'm loving the collective spirit of the group, I have to say. Yeah, and I mean, it just, it had everything you want in a derby. It really did. Even with their goal, it's Northland and Derby heritage because two of their best goals are that goal they scored yesterday in the Lamella-Rabona goal where he got sent off in a 2-1 loss. They still replay those goals and they both came in derby losses. So it's Spurs heritage. I loved it as a day. It felt so monumental.

1:16:07And look, Bayern's going to be a wake-up call. We're going to get, I think, a little bit of a return to reality with Bayern. Not that I'm saying we'll lose that game. They're going to be good and we're going to be under pressure at times. it's going to be a very difficult game that we will be fortunate to win if we do they will probably score they will probably create chances this was a very very easy game and I think Mikel is maybe lucky to have Bayern midweek in the sense that it will be a refocusing of what it takes to play at the top level because Spurs were so incompetent they created so little jeopardy they were such a limited participant in this game Chelsea is going to be the opposite Chelsea don't park the bus.

1:16:53They don't have the capacity to park the bus in a way. I think that's great for us, by the way. But the Chelsea game is going to be a game between us and a team that is eager to be the protagonist and eager to cause us problems in a way that Spurs weren't. The Bayern game will be the highest level game of this week. And I think that's good. It's good to get that game between this game and Chelsea because I really don't think Spurs contested this game in a good way. And it's crazy to think that this has them pining for last season when they lost 22 times in the league. They are at sea. They have no direction.

1:17:29They look rudderless. The decisions they've made with their team. I mean, we were probably a few hours away from Ezzedil being done to Spurs. And instead, we get this hat trick day and they get Shabby Siemens who, you know, the less said about him, the better. So a couple final points here. I mean, Tim, this game is always important because it's a derby. The derby is always an important game. And when you win the derby in this way, that is always memorable. When you win the derby the day after the presumptive title contenders, and I don't know if Liverpool even stay in that group anymore, have lost and City have lost, it feels even bigger.

1:18:08This was a weekend that we're going to all remember a long time if the season continues in the way we want it to. So how special was Saturday for you? And what are your thoughts quickly just on the contours of the title race and what we saw over this weekend? Yeah, I'd say first of all, the amount of shade you just threw on the champions of Europe, Elia. Have some respect. Yeah. I have a participation trophy here somewhere too. They proved they are the 37th best team in Europe. And they have a trophy that on it. that trophy literally proves they were the 37th best one one of the things i really enjoy actually is there's a technicality where their t-shirts that they had made say winners that's because uefa don't allow the europa league winners to call themselves champions um incredible so that's tell your spurs friends no nice little nugget for you that um yeah i mean i i think you're right in terms of I really like the positioning of this Bayern game because we've done a lot of good work in the Champions League that means that like if we'd I'd probably take a draw because my mind's on Sunday my mind's on the Chelsea game and a lot of that is the way the Champions League has been constructed now there's not that much jeopardy in it really but I'm sure this isn't what UEFA want a massive Champions League game like Arsenal Bayern to be but I feel like it's a bit of a free swing i'm really looking forward to it because every league game feels so massive and so meaningful it i'm sorry to say it again uefa won't enjoy this but it just feels like a much more low stakes like oh this would be like quite a fun game between two really good teams like yeah when it kicks off i won't feel like this but i'm almost i almost feel like a neutral you know you know when there's just like a really big champions league game on like a quarter final oh yeah i can't wait to watch that actually it's like that's you know that's not what this competition should be but that's that's the way they've designed it so in terms of the title race and the content tools of it and all of that i guess what i'd say is like and i'm not trying to police fans here too much because believe me i want this very very badly like the rest of you what i'd say is enjoy it like enjoy it like and and i just said the same maybe not last season because it wasn't really a title race but the season before even though it didn't go our way and some of that's painful it's so much better than the alternative like this is what you want to be a football fan for you like if if you want to win stuff as well it's a bit like if you win a cup right you have to go through the cup final which is horrendous like a horrendous torturous couple of hours of your life but if you want to lift the big shiny trophy at the end of it you have to go through it's the same the league titles like 15 cup finals you know you go you you really go through the mill but what you've got to learn to do is enjoy it and like you know don't let it eat you and don't worry about impressing strangers on the internet who support other teams like the just like don't worry about that don't get don't let it eat you enjoy it because like it doesn't happen all the time and you miss it and you know what someone posted the morning of the game it was six years to the day we'd played Southampton at home it was that horrible last Premier League game under Emery where we equalize in the last minute and the stadium's 50 % full most people aren't even on their feet celebrating and I looked at the table that day and we were below Wolves, Burnley, Sheffield United and Leicester in the table that day.

1:21:57This, like, I don't want to say these are the good times because, I mean, they are. They are the good times. And we've got to make sure that they're the great times. But when I look back on like the early 2000s and stuff like that, I say this all the time. I took it for granted and I let that Man United rivalry, for example, I let it be too big. I spoiled it for myself because I was too anxious and I was too uptight about it rather than being anxious and uptight about it but recognizing like this is fun this is good this is why you're a football fan and yeah you know contours of the title race and that enjoy it I love like I love supporting every team that Man City plays I love supporting every team that Liverpool plays as well as well as supporting Arsenal because that's four or five years ago, our own matches barely meant anything, and I know what I prefer.

1:22:50You want to be in a position where the games you play matter. They should always matter, but matter beyond just that day. We have been in that position for a few years now, and it's been enjoyable. I saw some, I don't know, some social media account trying to say, like, oh, Arsenal are celebrating their derby, but they'll probably bottle the title again. And I stopped and I was like, you know what? Maybe we will, maybe we won't. I don't think we will, but I don't care. We just beat Spurs 4-1. The guy they were going to sign came to us and scored a hat trick and laughed at them, like literally laughed at them.

1:23:22So, yeah, I am a big believer in the idea that football cannot just be about what happens at the end. It has to be about what happens along the way, and there's been a lot of good along the way, this among them, Clark.

1:23:35Elliot:Yeah, I took the decision yesterday to really enjoy it. I'm suffering a bit today. And I just come to that decision. I thought, you know what? That's just too good to just go home with. You know what I mean? It was just too good. I ended up in a pub called The Two Brewers near Caledonian Road. And trust me, there was a few, there was more than a few people in there decided it was going to be a late one. I met loads of people. And that point about enjoyment, Tim, it's a really good one. There was a lot of joy around yesterday, Elliot. Mate, you'd have loved this day. Without a doubt, you'd have loved to have been there.

1:24:08I'm going to spend a lot of time in England in spring. If this keeps happening, it's going to be there.

1:24:13Elliot:The bars, they didn't empty for ages where I was. I lost track of time completely. And I think it's a really important point. We're all nervous as hell, right? But when these moments come, don't normalize them. This isn't normal. This isn't normal. I want to say it's one of the best teams I've ever seen. And people say, but what about this team? When they won this, they won that. And that's the same thing that stopped me from saying it. because I think I know my football a little bit. I'm looking around this team and it looks really good. However, there's a flip side to this coin. Mikael Marino I thought was fantastic in the game.

1:24:46Elliot:But if you lose the game and Mikael Marino has one touch in the box, we're going to be saying we need to strike, blah, blah, blah. Things can change very, very quickly with football, how you look at information, how you look at data, based on the results. Spurs obviously looked at the Sunday game and tried to do something similar. We just brushed that off, took over the game, pushed them back and brushed them off. I wonder what face is going to show Bayern in a week. But to hear your point about enjoyment, I think I took it too literally. Well, I'll tell you what. We're top. We're six points clear of Chelsea.

1:25:17We're seven points clear of City. By the way, Liverpool below United, below Spurs, Bournemouth, Sunderland, Brighton, Palace, Villa. We are top in expected goal difference. We're top in expected goals allowed. I believe we've scored the most goals, right? Yeah, joint most goals with City. obviously the fewest conceded. We are in our rightful position right now, and we should just be getting stronger now. So it's very, very exciting. I don't think we need to do a Bayern preview, but I would just ask you this, Clive. Do you regard this as a big game, as a measuring stick, as a game where he, Mikel, should pick this lineup with a mind towards the Chelsea game?

1:26:01How do you think we should approach it? And just how big do you think it is? and then we'll get out of here.

1:26:06Elliot:I think it's pretty big. I remember when we used to play Bayern all the time and I sort of didn't always go to the games. And then we were out in Champions League for seven years and I sort of regretted that. And I think it is going to be important. When you see Harry Kane try out in their tracksuit, then you'll soon realize that it's a big game. I think that will change and get everyone pumped again. We need to sort of decompress from this game a little bit. But at this moment in time, you could say that Bayern and Arsenal are two of the best teams in Europe at the moment. So they're going to want to show something to each other.

1:26:40Elliot:I just can't see Mikel taking it lightly. But also, I hope he just looks at the potential injuries for certain players that he needs for the weekend. Because Chelsea away is a big one. That's a big one. I'm thinking about going myself. I might have to make a few phone calls. I really think he's one of those you might need to... I feel like I need to be at it. I think it's a huge game. But then again, you know what? Feeling Saturday morning after Brentford at home, that's going to feel like a huge game. We just need to keep taking one at a time and just keep winning. I think we're lucky too that Chelsea play Barca this week.

1:27:17They have a big game that they have to focus on because we've seen that Chelsea in seasons where they didn't have Champions League found it easier to navigate the league. When you have Champions League, it's a little bit different. And so I don't think they can afford to take that game lightly. Um, and I don't think they will not that I think we'll take the Byron game lightly by the way. So it'll just be, I think a little bit of a leveling, a leveler, the fact that they have that game. And I mean, if you look at Chelsea, they currently sit 12th in the Champions League table on seven points. you know they they're going to want to be in the top eight if they think they can get into it and they certainly don't want to risk falling outside of the seated positions of the knockout phase so it's a game that matters to them you know not that our game doesn't matter but it matters arguably even more than that so at least they will have have to be pushed in midweek which will help so I think we'll try to get a rewatch of the Spurs game tomorrow because you got to do that so join us for that we will definitely have an instant reaction at full time of the Bayern game a main pod on Thursday, a Friday night Clive on Friday, an instant reaction after the Chelsea game.

1:28:28So there is something every single day if you want to join us for those or just be here for these or whatever you want. If you have any questions, let us know. We're always happy to answer them. But what a special, special weekend we just got treated to. Yeah, I mean it made me happy enough just seeing Liverpool collapsing and then we get to do that to Spurs and City losing. What a brilliant weekend. And I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did, but maybe not quite as much as Clive did. So let's leave it there. Clive, thank you.

1:28:56Elliot:Thank you very much. Tim, thanks, Ben. My pleasure as always. All right, everybody. We'll talk to you in the next one. We love you, and we'll talk to you after Arsenal 10. Bye, Renew. Bye.

1:29:20I love you.