Dowman Stars In The Cup As Attention Turns To The Champions League

23:37Elliot:They're going to burst it down. Well, that's a summer conversation. I've got some sums in my head that I'm adding up about what could happen in the summer. And I'm sure that that's part of the longer discussion that we've had before he signed his contract, etc. Different world compared to Cesc's world. There's a whole new light shining on young players today. and he has three big games in a row, scores a winning goal against a big team, then he becomes the most famous 16-year-old in the world overnight. And that's what you've got to be preparing for. You've got to be ready for that. You've got to be ready for the injection of fame into his life and I'm sure they are.

24:19Elliot:I'm absolutely sure they are. I do think he comes into the right environment in the sense that not just Mikel Arteta but the players that are at the club currently and the England players who are at the club currently too, right? Because that matters in terms of your desire to be in the national team. I remember, I think it was at 16, was it Svengorn Eriksson brought Theo Walcott to the World Cup? And it was just a huge mistake for the player, for the national team. It was unwanted and unnecessary attention on him. He wasn't a factor in that. I think what we want to avoid is that, right? We want his summer to be low-key.

24:49We want his summer to be some relaxation, some fitness, some training, and some preparation for a season next season where he could be a big contributor. But let's face it, If he winds up playing an important role for Arsenal down the stretch this season, you can't stop talent.

25:05Elliot:If talent's talking to you and it gives you a better chance of winning, that talent will play. Things like overplay, if I'm concerned with, but you can't stop talent. Yep. Well, all right, look, there was another talent on the pitch I want to talk about briefly. And then we'll get into some of the moments of the game, the goals. The Eze and Nani, some of the players who maybe didn't perform as well in the front three, and we'll look ahead to the Bayer-Leverkusen game. But Marley Salmon led us in final third entries. Marley Salmon did that in just, what, 59-ish minutes on the pitch, I think. Yeah, 59 minutes on the pitch.

25:3636 of 43 passing, very assured. Eight final third entries. He did have the one moment where he sold Muscara a little bit short. And I don't think Muscara did him any favors. I think Muscara handled the situation poorly. And I think Kepa handled the situation poorly, honestly. But on that moment, what Mikel said is, yeah, I have to watch it back. but I could sense that he was responsible. It is good in a way, but don't lose perspective because everyone that's been in that room that has been at that level has made an error, a mistake or a situation leading to a goal. But that's not important. The important thing is the way he played and some of the things that he's done on the pitch.

26:09I think that's much more important than the other parts. Again, you know, Calafiore came off with a little knock. Ben White, nowhere to be seen lately. Saliba's carrying a bit of an ankle thing. Much like Max Dowman, Marley Salmon has an opportunity to show that he belongs in the group. I think it is a little more crowded group and maybe a group where experience is a little more needed. But he's in the group nonetheless, and I'm curious how you evaluate his performance, including maybe the error that led to the goal.

26:37Elliot:Yeah, the error you nailed it, I think it was 50-50. I think he had a chance to open out and go forward. He went backwards, but he's going backwards, a bit like Supermoney did the other day when you're off balance and you play the Chelsea one when you're off balance and you play it short. That's when you just got to have a touch. but you know you want to keep the ball moving you want to keep it moving and that pitch is crap do you know what I mean and so actually I thought he tried to put a good contact on it and I thought Mosquera just needs to jump in there he just needs to jump in and take stop the problem before it starts and hey it's one of those things he's watching him walk up the pitch at the end of the game he looked gutted and still gutted and thinking about it but I'm sure someone's had a word with him and said don't worry about that at all don't worry about it and it happens all the time And so actually, I think his story is almost as big, you know, because he's obviously very young.

27:29Elliot:16, you're centre-back at youth level, but you played right back in the first team. Well, right centre-back in the three to start the game off, which is unusual for anybody to play that role. Lots of space to handle, lots of ball play to handle in the back three, you're part of the build-up. And he was coiffing out of danger. He was just doing things that you just smile to yourself and think, crikey, you're not scared. And I think the key thing is to not be scared. You know, I thought all three of the kids that came into this game, made their debuts, they didn't look afraid. Jaden Dixon looked good too, yeah.

28:02Elliot:Yeah, he's got an England pedigree in the same year as Max's year, actually. A Dixon from Stoke at right back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. Yeah, and again, physically, he was maybe a bit more advanced because he's two years older. He's too. And what a great moment for him, right? He's suddenly thrust into that environment. It wasn't a very good surface, but a great environment with men with beards, mate, coming for you, pressing you, and with long studs. It's like, you've got to grow up quick. You've got to grow up quick. There's manicured pictures of the academy pictures around the country.

28:37Elliot:Then now you're in this environment. I think it's just great. I actually looked at this game as a really big development game. You know, I looked around and if I was doing an IR from the ground, I would have done it from a developmental perspective. And I thought we learned a lot about development of this team. And I'm talking about seasoned players as well, player by player. How were they developing? And the reason why I say that is that we potentially can have another 15 games or so this season if we get to the final of everything. and if you think the current group is going to manage that, the current first 11 air quotes, it's not going to happen.

29:16Elliot:So this game is absolutely critical to see where people are, how they are developing, how they are handling not playing, where they are in their fitness and sharpness. So I actually thought it was a really positive day, a really positive day, apart from maybe the two little niggly injuries. Yeah, well, there were just so many moments from the 16-year-olds that I really enjoyed and obviously Downman with his shooting, with his dribbling, with his providing for other players just caught the eye in a way that says, we need more of that. Maybe if that's not him this season, that's going to be him soon.

29:51Cleve, Mansfield had seven shots in the first 20 minutes, the most of any opponent against Arsenal this entire season. And some of that is the changed lineup and some of that was the back three. And I think Mikel pretty quickly realized he had made a mistake there. I don't even know if it was an injury that made him change. I think it was like, all right, you're a little bit hurt. That's fine. Let's make a change and go to a back four. But what did you make of that back three with Mascara, Marshall, get in the middle, and Cal Fiore and Salmon on either side? It didn't look super comfortable for the team, and we did give Mansfield some openings as a result.

30:23Elliot:Yeah. You know what, mate? Don't get too worried about it. The levels were a massive gap. You could have played a back one for the first 15 minutes, took a few shots, and still won the game. Right? So let's not go. There were people jogging on that pitch. Honestly, they were probably getting cold because they weren't running around enough. They were doing what they needed to do to get through the game. It really struck me to that point when Nani scored what is a really lovely goal and just walked away. No celebration at all. It was almost disrespectful the way he smashed that in the net. So we started off almost like a back four diamond.

30:58Elliot:I used to do this system when I was coaching. You have one ball player in front of a back three and you keep that back four in place. but it's a diamond shape. Also, you're giving space in twide areas and you choose what sort of profile you have in your wing areas. And so we had Martinelli and sort of Madueke and they were looking at the game thinking, I don't want to come back too far. Let me see if I can stay up here and make a couple of runs. I don't want to tackle. So Norgard was mastering everything. He was doing all the ball progressing, being available for Marlies. Every time he got in a bit of danger, he was there for a bounce to help him get out.

31:31Elliot:I thought he looked after them really, really well. And we just did what we had to do and then when we had an injury we made a change to something a little bit more traditional because it just made sense you don't do the same thing you know and then we just pushed people slightly into more traditional positions and went from there but I quite enjoyed it we're going to see a back three again mark my words when we're 1-0 down in a really critical game trust me we're taking a defender off you know so people look at back threes I just say I just look at it from a lack of cohesion a lack of role clarity and people weren't always there and they were just jogging alongside people.

32:07Elliot:They were having shots. They weren't shots that were really threatening. They were shots with half the goal covered. There was one at the back post potentially that could have been a bit dangerous if he had called it well. But if he had called it well, we would have gone out of the pitch and scored. So just the way it is. Yeah, I mean, I thought they had some decent openings, honestly. But it was a well-contested cup tie with a very changed and youthful Arsenal team. And there was fun things at both ends. It's not a perfect performance, but it's the performance you needed under the circumstances.

32:36Surely, I'm sure Mikel would have liked to have kept Piero and Capier maybe wrapped in cotton wool a little more, given that he's really going to have to lean on him. Cal Fiore, of course, came off with a little knock. And the rumors are that Leo and Cal Fiore aren't in a bad way. But, you know, with Cal Fiore, you're always sort of concerned at how much he trusts his own body in those situations. You can imagine that the manager said,

32:56Elliot:if you feel anything on this pudding pitch, anything at all, let me know and we'll get you out. And that's what they did. and so I'm hoping it's nothing there. We're always always a worry with Cal Fury, aren't we? Yeah, well, with Leo, I'm less concerned. With Cal Fury, the thing that was weird is the way he did it was kicking the ball and stretching his hamstring. So he kind of stretched at a weird angle with a high kick and then he went down holding the back and any time a player's touching their hamstring, your concern is that there's going to be time out. But I do want to touch on maybe the less positive aspects of his performance and we come back to maybe Aberaceza a bit, a few other things before moving on to the Champions League?

33:34Elliot:Just on Califiori for a second, just quickly. Italy have a massive World Cup playoff game coming up and where he's critical to that team. And so double, not just for us, but for that as well. He's going to be, that's a very important moment for him. So I do hope for his sake he's okay. Yeah, I think you're going to start to see some interesting business decisions being made by players, especially on teams that aren't fighting for much about orienting themselves to be fit for their national team as opposed to the club team. Yeah, I look at it differently now, mate. If they have two weeks with their national team, they have two weeks in a different environment, which is a mental refresh.

34:18Elliot:They don't have to play two games. That's the key. If they're too friendly, for example, you're already qualified. Don't play two games. But to be in that environment, to train with your countrymen, to be closer to your families, for example, I think that's a really positive thing and so I just don't want to obviously Califiori now he's going to play two games he is going to play two games and they're going to be really important games you know for his country I'm not sure who else has got proper games to qualify for in his playoff area but that's one that struck me the other day and I think it's important that he's ready for that for him because he wants to go to World Cup as well he doesn't want to sit out he hasn't qualified for the last couple so yeah I think we'll see what happens but I'm not against the players going.

35:01Elliot:I think it's about the amount of game time they have. That's it for me. I mean, all of a sudden at fullback, with Cal Fiore always being a bit of a doubt and Ben White not being heard from for a bit, Mazlu Iskele, don't lose your fitness because you're going to come back into the group pretty quickly and have to play some minutes here. I don't think we've heard the last of him this season, but there were a couple of performances I wanted to ask you about that weren't top-notch in this game. And while there are a lot of performances, I'm willing to just sort of shrug and move past because of the quality of the pitch.

35:32If Max Dallman can dribble his way through the middle of the pitch and have the ball tied to his foot, I think you could expect a little more from Gabriel Jesus. And this was, I'd say this is sort of the nadir of his return to the team since getting fit. He's played more than I expected, and he's contributed more than I expected. This was certainly not one of his more encouraging performances. And you do wonder sometimes when a senior professional is on a pitch like that in a game that you expect to win, does it sometimes impact how they approach the game and their focus and professionalism? We'll never know that, so it's hard to analyze.

36:11But both he and Martinelli, to be fair, who are players that usually thrive when they're on the pitch together, I thought failed to show the best aspects of their game. So do you have thoughts on Jesus and Nelly and their performance in general?

36:23Elliot:yeah it's um look everyone listening knows they didn't play great i think martin ellie showed a bit more he had an assist yeah and um he showed a bit more he sort of ended the game in in a good way um but i was disappointed some of the aspects of the early part of the game but i say to myself what does this game mean to them you know seriously it's completely different environment than anywhere else it just means about getting through it and getting off the pitch in one piece and not overextending yourself. Try to keep it simple. Try to keep it moving. If anything, it's a bigger day for the club as a whole to turn up, get off the coach, meet as many fans as possible, talk to their dignitaries, talk to all the people that Manstead have to come and see them.

37:10If you imagine they're in the sponsors' lounge,

37:13Elliot:you can just imagine. It's a very important day for Arsenal to be seen by other people, to not be tapped away. these people are untouchable to really engage with people i think it's very important and um i've seen clips that happening and it sort of warms my heart that we're not too snobby to have a photo with kids etc i really like that i think just get in get out do the job and just make sure you don't get injured hence why gingers is is an issue for me as we sit in here and man city are in our thoughts as we go to sleep every night and in our thoughts when we wake up i look at their squad and it's getting healthier.

37:53Yeah, they're about as fit as you could ask to be.

37:56Elliot:They're getting healthier. And even players who are like John Stones who are not getting minutes have now got some minutes. He looked rough at the beginning of that game, but he got better and better as the game went on. They're getting healthier. We go to League One Manitou, where we get a break. We've got a Premier League club. We get a break. We end up playing on Mars and we pick up two injuries. Flipping hell. And we're talking about who can come in. And so the key for me is, I looked at it as a development game, but I look at it also as a game of health. I'm hoping those injuries are nothing because we need to get healthier.

38:31Elliot:There's a couple of players, potentially, we need to see. Kai's one of them, but Odegaard's another one. We can't rock up to this critical moment of the season and not have these players available. They need to be available and ready to play because this is about to kick off now. I was pretty surprised that Kai started. We got Champions League midweek, And it made me think Mikel wanted to start him to ramp him and see how he responds to the three-day cadence. Because maybe Mikel is starting to think it's go time. I'm going to start to lean on Kai Havertz and push his body to respond well and be available.

39:06So maybe it's a good sign that he was picked. I thought he started the game pretty well, actually. And then his influence waned. But do you follow a similar school of thought with Kai Havertz starting this game, that it's an effort by Mikel to get his body used to the cadence of football every three days and ramping him up for the run-in?

39:25Elliot:Well, he's obviously going to get an hour. And he got an hour at 30 % effort, shall we say. And so he's got his minutes in the tank. He's going back to his old club on Wednesday night. And so it's a part of me that says he'll want to play. you've got to read people sometimes haven't you you can't go back to Leverkusen and be on the bench right so if he can do another hour there that would be that would be really good and because then we have the game of the week really Everton and that Everton I think it's the last league game for maybe four weeks and so if we can put that away we sit there in a in a good position so yeah I'd say you get an hour maybe on Wednesday maybe even half an hour you know but Everton, I think he's very important.

40:16Elliot:I think he's incredibly important for Everton game and I would want to see him in that game. Yeah, I think he's important for every game, candidly. Like if we had a 90 minutes every three days, Kai Havertz for the last two and a half months of this season. Get your cigars out, get your cigars out. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So we don't know what we will have, but anything approaching that would be a huge difference for us. A couple more things I want to tease out of this, but as far as Ebert, as it goes, he loves scoring in this competition. Obviously helped palace when it last season, he comes on and he just does that thing.

40:49He sometimes can do where he's like, I'm screw it. I'll do it myself. He takes a touch and he slams into the back of the net and he laughs and he's done. And like, it is, it is interesting. Watching him at times because it's everything the palace players told us when we did our, our, as a pod on Patreon earlier, we had a palace supporter come on and talk about him. just say he's going to have days where he's not involved and he drives you crazy, but on the days when he's on it, he can do something other players can't do. And that has really been the experience. And it's got to be frustrating for a manager in a way because you don't know which days those are going to be, but I still think given what we need from a goal-scoring standpoint, a player who's got that talent in his boots, you've got to find a way to use him and get him touches at the edge of the box.

41:32So just another encouraging reminder of what he can do if you get him the ball in those spaces.

41:37Elliot:So back to my development theme, This was a very, very good day for his development into the team. I thought he came on at 1-1, but he also scored an unbelievable goal. I mean, my goodness, that's how these pros can kick a ball like that. I just don't know how they do it, right? So that ball flew in. I don't think he even spun. He just went straight in pure. But also, after that, Elliot, we're watching this game and thinking, don't want an update. Don't want any extra time. Come on, come on. Just keep playing. Then he comes and drops deep, gets on the ball, looks after it, goes left, goes right, starts playing passes through.

42:12Elliot:I've often felt in his sort of introduction to the team that he's been very respectful and he plays position. So the manager says, I want you to pair up with Jokeres. He does that. And I felt he hasn't felt free in his mind to just go and get the ball, wherever it is. And I thought in this game, his heat map was so much better. He went in different areas, got on the ball, protected it, control the rhythm of the game the sort of things that people said he can't do and he did it so from a stop deferring stop worrying about being here you're really really good if you feel you need to take over a game then take over the game you know that's what other people do in that position that's what only god does if he feels he'll go and take over and have 10 touches he goes and has 10 touches and he does it at the right time so that the game takes the temperature out the game and i thought it was a really encouraging moment for him and with the team.

43:07Elliot:I think he's growing in the team. I think his personality is growing in the club. I'm really excited about his end of season because he does that thing, Elliot, that thing that's quite important, which he can stick the ball in the back of the net. And when you do that, people will always cover up for the things you don't do so well. But if you're doing things well and you're putting the ball in the back of the net, and he has a sort of a technique that in winning time, it's the same. He'll take it on. and i'm just conscious of this change in psychology that you just need people that just feel brave enough to do it you know and he's one of those and we started to talk about max he's one of those but kyle's one of those i'm brave enough accountability give it to me i'm going to do it and there are other players sometimes i look at them i think they lack intelligence they're lacking understanding of the moment they lack that and it annoys me for me execution doesn't ever bother me too much.

44:07Elliot:It's about your intention and your intelligence to understand what the game requires. And Eze, I thought, probably had his best game for that. You know, he's had more spectacular games. But for understanding what the game required, that one woman he comes on, delivers, I thought that's one of his better performances. Yeah, yeah, it was great to see. I think it's going to be really interesting to see how Mikel picks his team. We'll get to this for Leverkusen and for the upcoming stretch before the international break. I mean, he just got a performance out of Martinelli that might give him some pause about what he's going to do there.

44:40Will Leo be fit to start midweek? Could Ezza finally have the long-awaited left wing start again since his failure to track Matty Cash against Everton, against Avila? You know, what does he make of Gabriel Jesus? Because I still think striker is an open discussion in some ways. Lots of interesting things for him to consider. We're going to talk quickly about the post-match presser and then we'll talk Leverkusen. But before we do that, I do want to let you know tomorrow we will have a round of 16 preview pod with Phil. Phil is not doing great. His back is giving him a lot of problems. I'm sure if you listen to the Arscast, you know that.

45:16So we miss you, Phil, and we love you, and we hope you can get some relief for the pain you're going through. But he is going to take all the painkillers and do a podcast with us tomorrow, previewing the round of 16. So join us for that over on the Patreon. And also, if you are going to try to watch things and look at videos and surf the web and check out all the amazing content on the internet. At some point, you're going to need a VPN. VPNs help keep you safe on the internet. They help allow you to watch things that are geo-locked in your area. And all you have to do is put an app on a phone or a computer.

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46:19It is four bonus months along with a huge discount and a 30-day money-back guarantee. NordVPN.com slash Arsenal Vision. Do it now. NordVPN.com slash Arsenal Vision. NordVPN.com slash Arsenal Vision. Do it now. And for so long, one of the things I hated was just figuring out what I was going to eat each day. Eating is something that we do and we like to do, but we want to do it healthy and we want to do it relatively easily. Look, sometimes it's nice to go to the grocery store and pick out all the ingredients and plan a meal and come home and cook a beautiful meal. That's great. Trying to do that every day is really tough.

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48:42Elliot:thoughts um dominic king on sunday morning you know he should know better but why why'd i say that he embarrassed himself i mean just candidly his smirking sneering dismissiveness the way he laughed off counterpoints the way he monologued about it i mean the sunday supplement's not worth watching at the best of times but this this just felt like winding people up for the sake of winding them but it was so tone deaf i just couldn't bear it yeah i i look forward to that show i tried to watch it but i was so disappointed in it um this week it all depends on the guest quality i thought dame does a great job hosting it and carl anchor was absolutely magnificent and carl anchor is a manny night man and he spoke as well as any other arsehole person could do and he sort of said something that we've all said you know arsehole two three years ago when we were doing our saliva inter party inter-order guardian asaka stuff no one no one knew who we were we just did it and then since then people have been stopping us and he sort of said you know every time sacker gets a boy's got three men on him everyone knows where we're going right so um so we've had to change and we're all saying four competitions there are mitigating factors for what's happening right now but i don't want to apologize what's happening right now what's happening right now is a could be the greatest time i also watch in life i've been watching a long, long time.

50:01Elliot:And it just feels so reductive. And I'm trying, I used to get really sensitive about this stuff. And I used to think, come on, I expect better from some of these people. Then you just have to realize the game. And the game is to create stories in between the game. And we are the story. And there are many people who don't want us to win this thing. And which makes me think, please, please, arsehole, just win this thing. Because the conversations I really want to have, I can't have yet. You know, because you've got to get, you've got to have the badge of winning, you know, behind you. The local report, just following these really cheap narratives, and in the end, we scored the most goals, equal most goals.

50:46Elliot:We conceded way less than anybody else, scored the most goals in the Champions League. There isn't another thing we can do. We're in the final of one competition, we're in the quarterfinal another competition. We're in the last 16 of the Champions League with the best record in the Champions League, scored the most goals in the Champions League, conceded the least goals in the Champions League. We're top league by seven points and the second place team has a game in hand on us. And all we can do is do this. When I look at the game as a whole, and there are things changing in the game, you know, about how play styles, how we play off the ball, etc.

51:20Elliot:And the game is evolving. So how about look at that rather than look at a particular team When you look at this season as a whole, just for a second, if you look at it, we've got a title race, which we didn't have last season. Let's be honest, we come second, we have to fight for second. We have a relegation race. Last year, the bottom three teams, it was clear from a long time that they were going down. So there's no jeopardy at the bottom of the league, no jeopardy at the top of the league. This year, the bottom of the league, we have got two clubs in West Ham and Tottenham they have 60 ,000 seat stadiums.

51:55Elliot:Tottenham have the seventh highest wage bill in the league, and they have the ninth highest revenue in world football, and they're in a relegation battle. This shows the competitiveness of this league. Nottingham for us, European champions of yesteryear, with Leeds, with West Ham, with Spurs, all fighting to stay in the league. That's an incredible story, incredible story at the bottom end of the league, an incredible story at the top end of the league, where our sort of fighting against a nation-state that have spent more days atop of the table for the last three years than any other club in the country, and we haven't got a league title.

52:31Elliot:We're trying to do something to get us over the line to win. But when I say do something, I say that, and I say, what are we trying to do? We're just trying to win a game of football. We're trying to win a game of football in four competitions. It's not as though we're going for one competition and we're stinking the place out we're playing a trick sometimes in an attritional league we're playing attritional football to get the result the other teams are not getting up to this point you know we're sitting there how many points ahead of the year liverpool 15 16 17 points at liverpool 19 19 there you go mate nine could you imagine we'd have a conversation this time of the year saying we'll be 19 points at liverpool since they went five points clear of us they are on a 52 point pace it's not talked about given the amount of money they spent on the attack and by the way arna slot wants to tell everyone who will listen the opponents don't let me play in a way where i can go and attack yeah he's telling you pep cardiola is telling you it's gotten more physical it's man-to-man everything's man-to-man the players are too athletic too physical too well organized it's all man-to-man you have to play the football that's available to you you have to pay the football that's available to you and it's it's a it's a deep discussion about football where it is and there are some aspects of football which I don't always like.

53:43Elliot:But you know what I do? I accept that that's where the game is at this moment in time. I watched Inter Milan and AC Milan yesterday on a Sunday night. And, mate, they're winding up for long throws, mate. They're winding them up to go into the box. This is just where we are in the game. I personally, if you ask me honestly, I don't really like the long throw aspect. I think it takes too long. That's the one bit I don't really like. But you know what they're doing? they're making people defend their box you get it first face second face i can't tell a team not to try to use an advantage that they have to put a ball into an area when someone might make an error or you might get a first contact second contact and score a goal in a milan derby i'm going to say well i don't like these long throws behave yourself we analyze the game through such a critical view microscopic view we have people find out their jobs real quick if we don't win and we criticize them and try to derail their careers, I want them to use every single resource at their fingertips to make their respective teams better.

54:49Elliot:Don't moan about how a team plays against you. Find a way to beat them. Do you think I like watching all low-block games last year at the Emirates? I didn't. We had to find a way. Sometimes we did. We ended up with 14 draws. Sometimes we didn't. We're fixing that this season by making sure we take care of every single detail we possibly can. That's all we can do. It doesn't mean we're going to win, but we're trying to improve. And rather than look at that, you want to just use us as the flag bearer for the change in the game. I don't think a lot of people are buying into it. I don't know. I'm not too much online to see some of that.

55:29Elliot:But I just think we should need to focus on what we're doing and hopefully get the wins that we need to give us the best end of season we'll ever have. Yeah. I mean, Martin Samuel had a whole back page spread on how horrible we are and how we're a disgrace to the legacy of Ferguson and Wenger and Klopp and Pep. Interestingly, did not mention Jose Mourinho. Yeah. Interestingly, which is an interesting intellectual sleight of hand. Look, in F1, you put the tires on for the course you're running, right? If it's wet, if it's a fast track, if it's a slow track, you put the right tires on. You've got to have the right tires on for the track.

56:06And we are the right team for this track right now. And that may change and we may need to do other things. And if it doesn't work, then I welcome every criticism that says we could have done it a different way. I do think that it is the case that the team at the top is often scrutinized a little more strongly. I do remember ticky-tack of football being called boring by people when Pep was doing it. And I do remember Jose Mourinho coming in for some criticism. I remember Arsene Wenger's team being called soft and they don't like it up them. And now that we aren't soft, it's that we're not pretty enough.

56:38There's always going to be some of that because it gets clicks. Understanding what to ignore and what not to is important. And I think we're lucky in a way in that we have access to some content that is thoughtful and intelligent and entertaining and worthwhile that we can choose as opposed to 15, 20 years ago when all you had was things like Sunday supplement and our players getting their ankle broken and journalists going on TV He's saying that we're soft and we don't like it up him. So it's at least a better media landscape. I think this is an opportunity for Mikel to just create that siege mentality and get the players to feel that it's us versus the world.

57:14And so to the extent that he can leverage that and point to interviews like this and say, see what they're saying about you. You see how they're dismissing you. Nobody wants you to do this. Nobody thinks you can do it. I think that can be an advantage. So just use it.

57:26Elliot:Yeah, I think so. I think there's a moment here now where I feel this team is ready to win. And so I almost don't want to get too tense and worry about it. Just play the game. Just play the game that's in front of you because I've seen the team tense. We didn't play very well against Manchester United. We got overly tense. And it wasn't about talent, but our psychology to manage the moment. So I'm just hoping that they just continue in a nice, relaxed way and play their football and enjoy each other's company. make sure that we enjoy it which we're all trying to do and the last couple of weight games from people I know who have gone and obviously team wear at the weekend load of fun load of fun had by all you know and really good environment really people supporting the team everything they've got these are special moments man these are special moments I don't want to get too wound up by these people I want to just make sure that we stay I'm trying to stay cool They've got you in their clutches, Clive.

58:26Let's just face it.

58:28Elliot:I was disappointed by that Dominic King. I was disappointed by him. And I did send Carl a note today to say thank you for being objective. And that's all you need to be is objective, right? And not try to take Mickey out of teams. But hey, look, let them worry about what Liverpool are doing. You know, what Everton are doing up there and where they are. And let's just focus on what we're trying to do. And this is not over, by the way. I think the fear, Elliot, is if we win, this is the start of something. It's not the end of something. It's the start of something. And that's what they're all really afraid of.

59:08Elliot:You know, if we win, the manager's good age. He's got good support around him. The players' contracts are in the bin, all sorted, you know, and there's a bit of renewal to do, but it's probably well in advance already arranged. and there are players out there that are thinking, I like Arsenal. I like what they're doing. And that's okay. The worst thing I want, the one emotion I don't want to see is apathy. I don't want people to be apathetic about us. When people talk about us and being negative, I don't like it, but it's all right. When people talk about being positive, I don't like that neither because I think we might get complacent, but it's all right.

59:47Elliot:When people are not talking about it because you're just rubbish or you just got nothing to nothing about you you know that's the emotion you don't want they know we're coming and they know there's going to be a massive massive cultural reset in london mate oh my goodness what's going to happen around the world if arsehole win you're going to find out how many arsehole fans you know in your life trust me you're going to find out you know you will not be able to move for us and they know this is coming and i just just i'm just hoping and praying actually happens. Yeah, well, we are. And look, to be fair, though, if you get bad enough, they start talking about you again.

1:00:23Just ask Tottenham Hotspur, who got to enjoy watching scenes, for example, like Lincoln, who moved top of League One, chanting, Tottenham away, ole, ole, ole. Tottenham away, ole, ole. They'll stay up. Nope, they're going down. We're doing the quint. The quint, I'm telling you. The league, the Champions League, the League Cup, the FA Cup, and Spurs go down. It's the quint, the historic quint that we've all been looking for. All right, let's talk Bayer Leverkusen. 3-3 at the weekend. They're having a mixed season to say the least. They're not the classic Bayer Leverkusen team of a couple seasons ago when they went invincible in the league and made it all the way to the Europa League final, losing that.

1:01:03I think they also won their domestic cup, right? So they've been unbeaten in everything until that final.

1:01:09Elliot:They lost the Europa League final, literally, and that was the only game they lost all season. Yeah, so nearly historic trouble, but didn't quite work out for them. But they do have, obviously, some talent. I'm not going to pretend to be a huge expert. We'll talk to Phil Moore on tomorrow's pod, a little bit more about what to expect from them. I do believe, though, that the sort of star of the show there is their left wingback, Grimaldo, Alejandro Grimaldo, who's a big goal scorer for them. They will be hosting Kai Havertz in the return to his home if he is fit and available. Clive, we've been so, so good in Europe, but our performances recently have been a little bit mixed.

1:01:47So do you expect to see more of our European form return? What are you thinking about for this game?

1:01:51Elliot:Yeah, well, they play a pack three system. And I know they've got Patrick Schicke. I don't think he's going to be able to play, you know, based on reports. And they're also in a battle for the top four with RB Leipzig and Stuttgart. So actually, this is a really big game. But much like Spurs playing Atletico Madrid, it's a European game. You know what? The bigger game is potentially at the weekend and to make sure you're in the league. And the bigger game for, I'm not saying that's going to be the case for, by Leverkusen, but the games in the league are really important to the back of the competition next year because we all know finances are massive in this competition.

1:02:28Elliot:So... They're currently three points off a Champions League place and they have Bayern Munich at the weekend, as you mentioned. So it's not a case where I think they can just shrug that off, you know? No, they can't. And hey, look, we just got to do our work right and um it's actually quite nice to have two games outside the league that's all league pressure because um the brighton game although i thought we were okay in that game we all know the tension around it with what games what man city are doing at the same time and so yeah it was quite nice to have this i think in the in the champions league it's just felt good from minute one and it's almost like the things that we're getting criticized for absolutely work in the Champions League times three.

1:03:11Elliot:You know? There's no one that can live with this at the moment. We've got our component parts in place. You know, I still, I often find myself missing Mikel Moreno for some of these games, just some of these controls. Miss him terribly. I think he's such an intelligent player. I understand the rhythm of a game. He's just a brilliant coach on the pitch. And I just think he's such an intelligent body that was. And as you get to know him, you just think, oh, mate, you should be here for these moments because we're going to need you. So other people need to step up and they're starting to do that.

1:03:41Elliot:I actually thought, Madweke's attitude at the weekend, I really enjoyed it. And that's from somebody that questioned his attitude before when he was at Chelsea, questioned what he was doing. He's coming to Arsenal and his attitude to go out there, no matter when he plays, when he doesn't play, he just wants to produce it. I want to see more of that. And so, Leverkusen back three system, we are really good against back threes. We seem to know what to do to get around the outside and send them back to make it a five and really pin them in. And I just think, you know, Jokovic was kept sitting there ready and waiting to pin three defenders, which gives us the overload elsewhere.

1:04:18Elliot:He's done that before, I think he'll do it again. We've had lots of runs in behind and lateral movements. So, yeah, I'm expecting a, hopefully, just for this to continue and just keep ticking the games off. You know, in all the European games, I felt, you know, the Bayern Munich one was special. I quite enjoyed the Bilbao game. That was a bit more of a struggle. I remember the first one, Away From Home, when we scored quite late. Looking back, that was a quite hard game, but we just managed that one in the end. They've all been great to watch. So yeah, let's see if we can keep it going. We know the atmosphere will be febrile.

1:04:54Is that the word?

1:04:55Elliot:It works for me. I mean, look, if it isn't the word, no one's going to say anything. If it is the word, then, you know, it's fine. We may get a Tim Stillman of South London message in and give you the exact word. You never know. Yeah, yeah. That's fine. I'm not good with the words. But it'll be an intense atmosphere. I think sometimes it can be difficult for a team to go into a game where they're so expected to go through. You have to obviously stay focused and take it very, very seriously. But I actually think that the Champions League, much like the FA Cup, gives us a chance to take a breather from the league.

1:05:33I think the players will be well up for it. And ultimately, when we face these teams from other leagues, I think what you've seen is the intensity and the physicality and the pace that Premier League teams play with just is something that the opposition is not prepared for. They are just not prepared for the tempo of our play and the physicality of our play. You know, that's a big component of it.

1:05:55Elliot:I think so. But also, mate, we're quite good at managing the environments now because when we rock up, we're a big team. so you're getting the best crowd. Whenever you turn up, there's a light show. Do you know what I mean? Not a light show every other week. A light show for Arsenal. And it's like, okay. And then there's a TIFO there ready for you. You know, it's like, and they bring their best, right? They bring their best for you. And so we're able to manage that. The brain of our team really is now the two centre-backs and the two centre-mits. That box four at the back, we have a box four at the front.

1:06:26If you look at that, the box four at the back,

1:06:29Elliot:Rice with Mendy, Gabriel Sleber, were all in their carpet slippers at the weekend. And because they know we have two to three big games in a week that are really important when those four will be playing. If they're playing, I feel pretty confident about what we can do in other spaces. So that's the key for me. Yep. And by the way, Manchester City go to Real Madrid and then they have to go away to relegation-threatened West Ham. And you might say, it's just West Ham. But I actually think this is the time of the year where you'd actually rather face a mid-table team than a relegation-threatened team in terms of the fight that you're going to confront.

1:07:09What we want is tough. We need to thread the needle here. We want City to have a really, really tough game against Madrid so that they are shagged out and maybe weakened for West Ham. But we want them to get through the Madrid tie so that they have Bayern on either side of their games against Chelsea and us in the league. So interesting needle to thread there. As far as our game, I think it is as simple as just don't look past it. Make sure you're focused. I think we should have too much for them. We'll cover it in more depth with Phil tomorrow on Patreon. If you want to join us for that, we'd love to have you.

1:07:41But Clive, sort of any final thoughts on player availability or how you'd like to see it? I mean, would you, you know, if Leo had a little bit of a knock, Martinelli's always been good in the Champions League, not coming off his strongest performance, but would you do the yokores and nelly thing again when that hasn't always looked like a good combination with zach on the right would you if leo's not available would you would you move as a left and and bring someone else in the midfield what what would you do hey look

1:08:10Elliot:whenever whenever i always keep seem to give martin a lot of stick i don't i don't mean to but when he's serious which he has been in europe and he seems to have this thing that he wants to do well. He's our top scorer. I think he scores six goals in Europe. I think sometimes you've got to play the hand, but he played the full game during the weekend. You know, so I'm just wondering about that. I'm not sure we're going to do Eze left earlier, but if we do, he'll be fine. I think we've got to keep playing him. And then do you think Kai would come into midfield as a starter there, potentially? You see, I would probably do, if he has me, if Kai Havers can play this game he should play but I'm just conscious of the Everton game I think it's massive I think it's the biggest game of the season so far if we win it I think it's going to change things because I think West Ham away is going to be tough for us it's going to be tough to see they are way better than their league position is showing and so that's a game I'm really thinking about but also Everton when they come to us David Moyes he just brings it.

1:09:23Elliot:He brings the best version of them. They've had a good break again for their playoffs. I think this is a huge game. They've got big, furry defenders that can manage us in the air, in the box, and they position themselves really well low, and the goalkeeper is flying around at the moment, saving airplanes. I'm concerned about that game. It worries me that you're already talking about that game and not Leverkusen, because we can't afford to be thinking this way. Well, I know, I know. But Leverkusen, we've got another chance. We've got the second leg at home. Whatever happens, we've got another chance.

1:09:57So would you be more cautious with players who are on the edge then? For example, would you have Kai on the bench, Leo on the bench, Cal Fiore on the bench, make sure you're not overextending players knowing you have a chance to right wrongs?

1:10:08Elliot:If we put this game away at the weekend, we're in a really good position. You know, a really good position. To me, Elliot, I want to win the championship league like everybody does. but I really want to win that league. I want to win that league. I want to shut up. Matt Everton, our next league fixture is what, like a month away? Because we're going to play City in the League Cup final, then there's an international break. Yeah. And so this is why it's important to leave that mark. Don't leave the opportunity for that gap to close. Make sure you extend it to the absolute maximum so you can put that game away in your mind, put that competition away in your mind.

1:10:43Elliot:Focus on player health. Focus on players traveling away. Get through the Champions League. get to the quarterfinal see if we're playing on the plastic pitch or playing sporting we've been to sporting before we know what that looks like and then you know par this season is semi-final you know it's par in the Champions League isn't it really and people are going to expect us to get to the final to get a birdie per se you know and if we get to the final if we get to the final we've won the league then we're winning that I'll tell you that for nothing so just got a tingle yeah made it made it sound so fait accompli if we won the league if you won the league and we go to a Champions League final it's going to be hard to stop us I really feel that once that pressure valve is turned off look out yeah I agree but you know Barstona we're making assumptions on Barstona by the way because you know I'm not sure that's a sure thing but there is we can we can get there if we're in health you know so it's cause sometimes you're seeing players come out in warm ups and things and coming off with the manager knows what he's doing here he wants his team healthy when it really matters and that's what pep's doing that's what he's done he's brought signings in he's brought people in and now for the first time they're starting to do better in second halves because he can now make changes because he's got less injuries we need to get back to that level of absolute strength we're not far away got a couple of doubts absolute strength in our squad so that we're not running timber out you know we're not running slieber out we need ben white back quick you know and um he's a really important player for us we need odegaard back because there will be a day we need to hide the ball he's coming you know and um and so we need him back and but back not odegaard back we need good odegaard back you know someone wants to take control of games and run the games we need that you know so um so yeah it's getting exciting now man he got me going for god's sake yeah you're You're fired up.

1:12:44Look, Wednesday night, the right-hand side is going to be really interesting because they've got Grimaldo over there. He's their main threat. We've got Timber and Saka on that side, so they've got to decide, are they going to let him roam and go and attack? Is he going to have to stay in and try to help? That right-hand side, that Timber-Saka side is going to really, really matter. So I look at how you platform that, and I actually think if Kai can start, I love the idea of Kai Saka and Timber creating those triangles on the right there and how that can disrupt things. I don't think it's as comfortable on that side of the pitch.

1:13:13either bring him in off the bench or let him stay on the left where he can influence it from there. But one way or another, I think we have what it takes for that game. And I sort of see your point that given there's a second leg to right wrongs, if the outside chance happens and we have to, just don't play anyone into the red zone tomorrow if you don't have to. That would sort of be the word of caution. Because if you can beat Everton and spend three or four weeks with that as the last result in the Premier League, City unable to close the gap for a month, and you've got a cup final against them to maybe lay down a marker.

1:13:48A lot's going to happen between now and then, but beating Everton means that nothing is going to happen in the league except for us staying seven points clear, and that's where we want to be. I think we're going to leave it there. We'll have the round of 16 preview with Phil tomorrow on Patreon. We'd love to have you over there. Just happy to have you over here. Just happy that we're here having this kind of chat instead of whatever the heck kind of chat they were having on Sunday Supplement and other places like that. So stay with us. We got you covered. Clive, thanks.

1:14:11Elliot:Thank you very much. My name is Elliot Smith. We love you. And we will talk to you after our time. Bye. Bye.

1:14:21Bye.