How Does Arteta Manage the Squad for a Chaotic Run In?

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0:16It's Rice. What a goal! Declan Rice with an absolute rocket with a free kick. Arsenal lead 1-0. Cut inside. Saka! Sublime finish! He's back with a bang with Fukuyasaka, 1-0! Unbelievable! Look, usually I don't love international football, but I'll tell you what, I could use maybe one more week away from the anxiety. This is the Arsenal Vision Post-Match Podcast. My name's Elliot Smith, the Kupapman, I'm Jeter, Jank Gunner. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Anxiety Show, because football is about to come back with an insane bang. Just the FA Cup on Saturday and the Champions League on Tuesday and a crunch league fixture on Saturday and another Champions League tie and then another crunch fixture and then another Champions League tie, we hope, and then another FA Cup semifinal at Wembley, we hope.

1:03And it just goes on and on and on, and I'm sure it will be nice and smooth sailing, and actually all the anxiety I'm discussing will melt away like a summer breeze. We'll just never know it was there, or I may have no cuticles left by mid-April. Thank you for being here. Love you very, very much. Going to express some of that love more sincerely in a moment but first i'm going to introduce paul hello paul woohoo woohoo indeed you ready for the anxiety you ready for it yes yes i am i'm all chilled out won't last you take everything in stride you've got that zen you know how to meditate you know what you're doing i do know how to meditate and sometimes it helps a little bit sometimes it doesn't make much of a difference so uh yeah i'm ready to be terrified big big six seven eight weeks to come here it's everything we've asked for Elliot.

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5:47So, you know, apologies in advance for hearing about it. But I hope you understand of all the nonsense we talk about on this pod, this one is certainly worth hearing about. Paul, let's touch on some international break stuff that happened before we look ahead to Southampton and beyond. And, you know, one thing that happened is some cool stuff for some players that we're going to potentially be depending on or might think we're going to depend on in the coming games. So let's start with Viktor Yokras, a hat trick, and then a match winner to send Sweden to the World Cup. A huge moment for him. And while the cynical people might say, well, that's the level, you know, scoring against that kind of competition, that opposition, in that kind of competition, and I get that, I get that argument, I am inclined to think that for someone who really wants to be feeling himself going into the run-in, really wants to believe he's the man, posing in front of his national team fans with the Bain mask on, having sent them to the World Cup, is just the lift we need for a player we're really going to need to be in top form.

6:50So how do you evaluate his international break and whether it could have an impact on us? Yes, to all of that. we should be very happy that he gets four goals in two games is to use your phrase only I won't he's feeling good about himself he won't say he's feeling himself no rolls off the tongue differently for you I feel I've got to keep away from that stuff that's the stuff that gets me into trouble he's also got what 16 goals and two assists in all competitions for Arsenal I mean it's creeping up quite nicely for him in terms of the season

7:27and him feeling good about himself. He's going to play big minutes and maybe have big moments for us in the run-in. I mean, three competitions, the ball's going to bounce in his area of the pitch, and we're going to use him because we've got the shortage. There's the opposite of a glut. There's a drought on our players. We're running them thin. He's going to play a lot. He's going to start a lot. it's nothing but good and maybe the best of Viktor Yarkeres is yet to come and you know Europe's different and there's you get different looks and he could have some really big games for us in Europe in the run-in so there's it's nothing but good so I'm very happy about Viktor getting his four goals he'll be happy Sweden will be happy we'll be happy yeah I I'm sort of torn Paul and I'm curious where you are on this because I still believe that Kai in his pump is the best center forward we have at the club that the best of Kai that I've seen is the best center forward play I've seen among our options at the club the best of Jesus might be up there too to be fair but I don't know that I believe the best of Jesus is really there anymore to be tapped.

8:51I think the best of Victor Jokras, his absolute best games, have been pretty solid. But I still fundamentally believe that an on-ball player who can help us in multiple phases of play is probably just slightly more valuable. And especially with Kai's aerial capacity, I think that that could be helpful as well. But I must admit, the best of Kai is really something that I think about having been from January to May, two seasons ago now, essentially two years ago. And I don't know the state of his fitness. I know he played once for Germany over the international break. He may be getting fit just at the right time.

9:27There are going to be people that say, well, you can play them both together. For me, Zubomendi, Rice, and Kai is a great midfield if you plan to be direct and go long and try to win a lot of duels. I think it can be a midfield that also leaves you without the ball as much as you'd like to have it. So for me, I still think it's preferably one or the other, Kai or Yoko Ress. And I'm wondering, with some big games coming up, let's say not Southampton, let's say Sporting Lisbon. I mean, I regard that as a big game. Maybe you want to say Bournemouth. Whatever you regard as the next really big game.

10:00Do you have a sense of which center forward you would like to see getting more of the big games or starting? Everyone will play, but starting more of the big games for the run-in? so there's a few ifs right in terms of who we have available for midfield it's pretty thin at the moment but maybe martin odegaard is back properly maybe hit some form quickly so that's the big one for me if odegaard's back and hits form he solves all sorts of problems for us and then then you have a choice of you know how you want to mix jacoresh versus havertz but until we reached that happiest spot like I think there's a good chance you're going to see both playing together

10:47so and we've seen it a couple of times and once it looked great and against City maybe not so much but I don't think we did it very well against City so I think there's the chance for it to be better than we've seen it there a couple more games they'll start to find their patterns I do agree it has the risk that we don't hold the ball or control the ball well enough. But the other thing we didn't have was an in-form and fit Saka on the day. That was probably one of his palest performances. So it's one of those where you've got to see it again with Saka in-form. This is Jock Resch and Havertz together.

11:27With Trossard, I thought he was okay on the day. A lot of people had a problem with Trossard on the day. But he was okay in terms of the work he did defensively and to kind of help us to dig out a bit for a left winger. He really didn't have much say in the game as an attacker. So we'll see a whole different game against another opponent than Man City with the Akoresh and Havertz. So I think there's mileage in that if Havertz is, if you like, the backup striker, our midfielder who's playing attacking football. So we've got options. We're still in that thing we've been all season where we're like still waiting for a good 11 where we're like, okay, I'm really excited about that with the players we have at the moment.

12:11and it feels like September, October, November, December where you never really have an 11 where you're like, okay, this is really good and we're going to tear it up against good teams. But it doesn't mean we can't have an 11 that starts to work for us and that could be one of the 11s. Or Martin Odegaard back in midfield tearing it up, feeling it could be the other way we get to an 11 we're all excited about. Yeah, I think Martin Odegaard is going to come back and play because he's going to have to, as is not available. I don't think Kai can play every game. Even if you thought Kai in midfield is actually a really good solution, we should rely on it.

12:50Has Kai played 90 minutes this season? I don't think he has. I don't think he's about to. So you are in a situation where you're either moving Saka inside, but you don't have Nani Medueke right now. So then you're talking about starting Max, which we'll get to Max, but I don't think he's going to start games. Odegaard has to play. I mean, I really think it is that simple. maybe that's good for him you can go with the competition's good we've tried a bit of that and it hasn't been that great because I wanted to throw this back to you I was going to say actually would you regard Martin Odegaard coming back in this situation to kind of be perfect for him because there has been look I adore the player I think it is fair to evaluate he hasn't been at his best in all phases of play for a while since that ankle injury now and I think that his role has gotten a little bit murkier in light of some of the players that have been brought in where there's some redundancy or some difference in how we play.

13:45Do you think it's clarifying for Odegaard to come back into a situation where, hey, there's no Ezza, there's no Marino, Kai probably can't start there. You go play midfield the way you play. We need help progressing the ball. We need help with the stuff you're really elite at. Go be the Martin Odegaard you've always been because we need that guy right now. Do you think that can be very clarifying and maybe help us see some better form from him than we've seen between the injuries uh yeah and that was certainly kind of how i i tilted my head i was going to go on this but like really what's the real issue is probably the same issue as the issue with saga if he comes back fully fit i think we'll get the full martin odegaard i think he'll hit like what has held him back niggles not been fully fit we've seen a game or two this season where he's really been on it and he's really started to look like himself um but i suspect he like many other players is somewhere between niggled and jaded for for many of those appearances so if you can tell me he comes back fully fit i think yeah the psychological piece of it matters but not nearly as much of uh if he's 100 fit we'll get the full 100 martin odegaard's on it creating stuff making he's a brilliant player he doesn't the psychological thing when you're that good is a component but after a game or two of feeling it um you're just on it and you you think you can tear up trees and your body feels good and you want to get out there and express yourself against other tired players i mean you could absolutely tear it up in that plenty of other players are are tired he's not is he fit is the question yeah i mean we won't know until we see him right we'll just have to evaluate that so i don't want to speculate i mean it is the case that he's been out a while and while he may have energy what he's got from a form standpoint remains to be seen this is where i think actually the way these games fall could be really helpful though.

15:58I think if you want to throw them in there, unsure of exactly what you're going to get, playing them against Southampton is a reasonable thing to do. And then while I do not want to diminish the importance of or the challenge of sporting Lisbon, it's another game where if you're going to use him, I think you could reasonably do that so that you know going into the games where you absolutely have no margin for error like Bournemouth and City and potentially sporting Lisbon at home, you're in a position to know more about what you're getting from him and what solutions you can rely on. So you've got a good proving ground in those two games.

16:32You do, though I suspect that's a bit more for us than it is for Arteta, because if I'm Arteta and my staff and my player are telling me, I feel great, right? I feel fully fit, then I'm going to totally lean into not worrying quite as much about form and worrying far more about getting him the games of the minutes to get him played in. Well, right, but you don't want to be doing that in existentially important or challenging games. I mean, feeling great and playing great are two different things. If you told me Bournemouth was this weekend, not Southampton, I'm not sure I'd be fist-pumping, let's start Martin Odegaard coming off months without football.

17:12I think I'd be much more... But that's the first game, right? Right. By the second and third game, if I'm Arteta, I'm going to YOLO into Martin Odegaard playing because that changes the outcome of my season. Wait a minute, but wasn't that exactly my point though, right? Which is you get to see him against Southampton and Sporting Lisbon, which are games where if he's not in top form, you can tolerate that. And then you'll be in a position to evaluate whether you want to start him in an existentially important game like Bournemouth based on what you see from those. And again, I don't want to say they're lesser games, but games that you may feel more comfortable with him easing himself back.

17:53yes although let me explain why it's not your point i'm going to agree i'm working on i felt it was i felt it was my point which i liked but apparently is not my point which i which i don't like but i am open to listening to yeah it it's because you you see how he's progressed no i don't if i'm arteta and he's fully fit i don't care how he plays i i'm like get him minutes get him going he feels good my doctors say he's 100 my medical team says he's 100 my fitness team says he's 100 if he doesn't have a great game i'm basically going to close my eyes and say i don't give a crap it's coming it's martin odegaard he's 100 fit uh two games and he's going to be brilliant now we to your point we know the two games but we'll be looking to see if it's coming along if i'm Arteta or I'm me I'm confident it's coming if he's fit I want to ask you so let's say he has and this isn't going to happen he's going to play like a Ballon d 'Or winner in two games score two goals get two assists be at the absolute uh peak of his powers and lead us to a treble of course but let's say in bizarro world where things happen that could never happen he drops two stinkers against Southampton in sporting you don't think with Bournemouth coming up that McHale might be like, I'm going to try Kai in midfield, or I'm going to move Saka into midfield if Nani's back because the Nani absence now looks like it may be short.

19:20You don't think it would give him pause? You think he's just going to keep sticking him back in there? I just think in the real world, they won't be absolute stinkers. If they're absolute stinkers, you have a point. I just, it's like, I expect him to be really good. I think Arteta expects him to be really good as long as he's 100 % fit. I mean, Martin Odegaard at 100 % And fit? Dropping stinkers? It's not my world. Well, you know what I like about Odegaard in that respect is that I think an Odegaard stinker, so to speak, means he's not making the right final pass in the final third. He's not taking the shots.

20:00But even in his bad games, I still think usually, not in every case, but usually, you're going to get him bringing the ball forward. You're going to get him completing a high volume of passes, doing some of the things that recently, to be fair, against City, against Brighton, against Chelsea, the block and tackle stuff that you just have to do the basics the the progressing the ball the pitch stuff has been an issue and i think you usually get that from martin odegaard um but we'll see look i don't want to i don't want to make this the odegaard cast but yeah can i just say i think there's way too much angst about whether martin odegaard is good enough the angst should be is he fit enough is he really 100 i i completely agree with that i would just say in two seasons, we've now seen a pretty substantial drop off of final third end product from that player.

20:47And given that we are a team where that is a focal point for us in terms of concern, those two things, unfortunately, the Venn diagram of things I'm concerned about with Arsenal and things I'm concerned about with Odegaard is a circle. You know what I mean? I'm concerned about Arsenal getting enough chances created and goals from open play. And I'm concerned about those things with Martin Odegaard. So we'll just have to see. Let's talk about something that is equally speculative, and that is Max Dowman. If you missed it for the U19s, scored a sensational goal by the touchline, left his man for dead, dribbled the ball all the way through midfield, scored.

21:22Shimmied. Yeah, shimmied. He has a move, and it's such a cool move because I don't see any other players doing this. He'll be up against the touchline, right? And they always say the defender wants you up against the touchline because the defender can use the touchline as an extra defender. but what he will do is he will receive it to the inside, to the touchline side and dummy it and spin to the touchline, not inside. And it works so often because defenders do not expect a player to go to the touchline side with so little room, but he has this little touch he can do to kind of spin, move it forward, keep it from going out in a touch and, and get past his man.

22:02If you watch the goal he scored for the U19s, you'll see exactly what I mean. He's also tried it for the first team. and I love that move because it's unexpected and you do wind up with our wingers up against the touchline a lot trying to escape, so it's particularly handy. But my position on Max Dowman, Paul, is I don't think he'll start any games. But I think he should play potentially quite a bit. So if not, he's out for a few games, and thankfully it doesn't look like it's going to be long-term. And depending on Odegaard's fitness, if it is patchy, if Kai's fitness is patchy, and Mikel feels that one of the options he needs to use in games is to move Saka inside.

22:39Do you think that Max Dowman goes from a luxury role where you can bring him on with a three-goal lead and it's fun for everybody, or you're chasing a game and you're desperate, to part of his plan in a more structured and regular way? Well, you just need one more injury. Why? See, guys, send the complaints to pause, right? Like, this is the tempting fate stuff. even I'm not a superstitious person particularly, but even I right now, I'm not tempting fate with that, but yes, carry on, please. Yeah. I'm really not a superstitious person. I mean, if that's how the world works, if God's really a Patreon member or a faithful listener of this pod, well, then the fundraiser should get us to treble alone.

23:25So let's go give. So I'm, it just doesn't add up that what I say really has any impact even on our listeners. Yeah, I was going to say, in general, I agree with that. I agree with that conclusion. So if we proceed, you, sure. People actually listen to what you say and react. Me, they listen to what I say and ignore it. Look, it just needs a niggle there in the players who hover around the right-hand side of the pitch. God forbid. Elias Doriachfad, let me put it that way. and like he goes from might play a few minutes, might play some 20s to he might start a game or two. You don't think a Martinelli starting on the right kind of situation just becomes the more natural solution or Jesus?

24:16Like it is weird to me. I don't think Gabriel Jesus has been good. He's two injuries away. So actually let me ask you this because I think this is relevant to the Max conversation. I don't think Gabriel Jesus has been particularly good as a striker in quite some time for us, although he's scored some interesting goals this season. but I still think that his dribbliness and, and his quality and his trickery off the wings could be useful. And, you know, maybe we've seen less of his strength holding the ball up from a center forward position, but that's less relevant from the wing. Like, do you think that maybe Gabriel Jesus has a bigger role to play than we think as a wide player?

24:54Like that, to me that, you know, Pep used him so effectively. And granted, we were talking about peak Jesus at that time, But he used him so effectively as a malleable player he could use across the front three and quite frequently off the right in title run-ins. Like, why not? Well, because he'll need a lot more legs on the wings, and Arteta would want him to do a lot more defense. Yes, yes. We just always think about how our attackers defend. I know, I know. Yeah. Well, I don't know if you've noticed this, but we're the best team in Europe, the best team in the Premier League, and the favorites for the FA Cup or whatever.

25:31Timber's back there, Paul. He can do it. He's fine. Yeah. So, unfortunately, Arteta probably cares about the defensive work he can do even more on the wings than what he can provide when he's dropping in centrally. And I just haven't seen the legs. Look, he can be a great player, but first you've got to see it in his legs, and we haven't really seen it yet. So I'm going to color me skeptical on Jesus until we see a game where he's tearing it up physically and he's got the burst and he's going past players, and we haven't seen that yet, unfortunately. I mean, he's still at a young enough age where he should be good enough, but I guess cumulative mileage in his legs or whatever, all the injuries he's had, all the minutes he has played over time.

26:21It just doesn't seem to be there. So I have a bit more expectation, I'll see, Max Dowman, I sense, than you do, even though I'm still, I'm basically with you. I just think I expect maybe a little bit more than you do. Well, let me frame it this way. So all kidding aside, I do think Mikel Arteta thinks a lot about how we keep the opposition out. and I don't mean that in a derogatory way. I think we are the best defensive team in Europe even if our defensive level has maybe suffered a bit in the second half of the season. We still are excellent defensively and I don't think Mikel Arteta is ever going to put anybody out on the pitch that he thinks weakens us defensively if he has an option that he thinks is as good but doesn't weaken us defensively.

27:08And so I think, for example, if we're 1-0 up, I don't know that that's a situation where Arteta is going to want to bring Max on because I think he believes that what we have we can hold. Now, to be clear, I don't know that it's played out that way recently, and I am sympathetic to the idea that actually bring on a guy who can carry the ball from back to front, trick a guy, dribble a guy, win a foul, win a penalty you don't expect from nothing because if your team is sitting just that bit deeper, you need someone who can individually impact the field tilt. you know so I I would like that but I don't think Mikel will use him in a one nil lead situation I don't know that Mikel will use him in a nil nil situation except where it's late in the game and we are trying we desperately need a goal like against Everton I think look we all agree he might see minutes in a game where we're three nil up but but set that aside I would like to see him used more widely where I don't think he'll be used Paul is from the start and the reason I don't think so is that I think for a 16 year old the single biggest thing you're going to experience is the physical impact of playing senior men's football.

28:12I don't think a 16-year-old can play 90 minutes at that level. And if you start someone that you know cannot go past, let's say, an hour, you start the game knowing one of your substitutions, and that limits what you're able to do in response to what happens in the game, including injuries and scores that you don't expect. So I think Mikel might opt for the safer option to see Max as a game-state-relevant tool he can use, as opposed to starting him and potentially needing, knowing he's got a substitution he has to make. The only game I could see him starting, ironically, is this one coming up right now, which is Southampton, where if he feels he has to make a sub on the hour to take Max off, but it keeps Saka wrapped in cotton wool, and it helps him avoid having to overuse certain players, then yeah, I could see it in that situation.

29:01Yeah, I agree with that, except i'd still maybe add another egg in the pudding for um i could see why you play him when you're one zero up but you're not getting a lot of attack and you don't want to play you got 40 minutes to go and you're like uh i want to be two zero up not one zero up like we haven't tended to see that so far but uh if he continues to be a high impact sub when he comes on you start expanding the use cases for there are game states where you want another goal or you want to take the ball down the other end of the pitch you don't want to spend the whole bloody game in your half because your players are jaded and you're like max down and can do that fullback all day long take us down the other end to you know not just because you need another goal it's because you want to play in their half more than you're playing right now and so you could see i think there are more game states than maybe you originally framed where you could say you know 30 minutes of max down and changes the the balance of this game given given who we're up against and if they're sitting in a deep block uh he's a guy who can get you a penalty he's a guy who can jinx jinx his way around a fullback um i i think you're basically right i just maybe throw another egg in the bake.

30:30Yeah, and we both agree he's a useful player for Mikel to have because he has... Can I add one point on the starting, right? I think the one thing that really works for him is that the opponent isn't ready for him. And to your point, if he starts a game and then the next game they're anticipating he's going to start, which, like, that's too much to be playing anyway. But, like, that's when a team gets used to you like they got used to bakaya saka and they worked out not just to put two men on your side but where to put them and how teams aren't ready for him when he comes on so i think you're that's absolutely right i think the way to use him in the run-in to get the max max is bring him on as an impact sub uh when they're starting to reel or when they're getting a little tired or when they're getting a little leggy you're absolutely right but i just the way you frame is very cautious and i just i'd give it a bit more welly there in terms of how much we might see him oh just so we're clear if i were managing he'd start every game um i think what makes him so interesting right um it's sort of similar to miles in the sense that miles was available at a position where we suddenly wound up with need and he happened to have some qualities that we particularly needed, I think, right?