Important Win, But Performance Divides Opinion

30:31Well, I think if someone's coming behind you, I think it's kind of different. If the guy's in front of him and he collapses, much like Everton strikers did, by the way, the second they got over that 18 yard line, oh no! And actually, I think they did themselves out of a penalty actually by doing that but um yeah like i i think you can make a case for giving it but i'm all right with it not being given the one the one that eventually was given i mean i have to say at the time i couldn't see it because you know i was a hundred yards away but the person next to me was like um you know credit to his eyesight i mean it was obvious don't get me wrong but he was like that's a really blatant penalty and i was like is it and uh it took a little while And obviously once there's a successful, or I say successful VAR appeal, once VAR gives something, they do show it on the screen in the stadium.

31:23And when they showed it, everyone just laughed. There was just laughter. And then there was like a secondary. Why did he look at that for so long? I couldn't figure that out. I guess he was looking for a push. I don't know if there, maybe there was a secondary foul that an Arsenal player was committing that they were looking at to see if it came. Yeah, I think that's the only thing he could have looked at. It's like, okay, that's definitely Paul. Did someone maybe give him a bit of a nudge or something? But yeah, I mean, and ultimately they both came from, you know, that was a decent corner to the back post.

31:57And we're seeing like a lot of that, particularly, well, to be fair, I was going to say without Gabriel, it seems like we're aiming for the back post a bit more. But to be fair, the last corner we scored from at Burnley was Gabriel on the back post. And we've got a couple of guys who can really get it there. like whip it like you know but Bukayo Saka's going to score one at some point I think Declan Rice will score from one directly without it hitting anyone else at one point because they really get some whip on it but also the the move um for that Yokarez um kind of chance was really nice I think we saw some really nice stuff from Saka and Timba in terms of their combination and Timba in the last couple of months has really picked up that kind of underlapping run quite a lot, particularly because people double up on Saka so much.

32:44And this was right in front of me in the second half. There was that one where they got in each other's way, and that really should have been a goal as well. Saka and Timber had gotten each other's way. Yeah, and that barely shows up on our XG. That Jokeres, that doesn't show up on XG at all because there's no shot. By the way, just before the penalty, Jokeres had a header that was just over, and it came from Saka playing Timber and on the overlap. It was actually a poor sack of pass. It kind of sent Timber wider than he wanted to, and he had to cut it back to Odegaard. But they were right on the brink of finding something really special in this game.

33:18Yeah, and they worked that side a lot. And Trossard was coming in into those kind of nice number 10 areas and stuff. So there was good stuff. We'll go on to this. But undoubtedly, though, what everyone agrees on, we need to start getting more out of our attack pretty soon. Yeah, yeah. So it's, look, the penalty is obviously a penalty. the non-penalty, like whether you have it as a penalty or not, it ultimately doesn't matter. It's not given. I think one of the reasons also it may not be given is like, if you give it, you probably have to give a red card there too, I assume. And that's a big, big, big decision to make off something that's, that you can get away with not calling a penalty.

33:59So maybe it's a case of like, I don't know that I want to give this because then I also have to give the red card, which you could say that's not how a game should be refereed, but it is what it is. Clive, quickly, on the penalty Surprised or not that he took it And thoughts on the penalty he took

34:16Elliot:Yeah, he took a great penalty And he went in Not everybody thinks that, by the way You'll be surprised to hear It's not in the corner Let's just say it that way It's too hard to save It would go through the keeper, right? Yeah, I mean I don't know what to say, really Well, here's what I'll say I think Saka's last penalty was better And right now, if it's the last penalty of the Champions League final to win the Champions League final, going into the season, I would have said it's Jokers' penalty all day long. Saka's penalties this season have been absolutely insane. So, I don't know. I don't know.

34:52Elliot:Yeah. You are quite entitled to have that opinion. I thought the penalty was fantastic. Was I edgy beforehand? Of course it was. and there's been a bit of a feeling with me that some of the balls that are going his way could be a little bit of a trust issue maybe. And sometimes footballs just do that naturally. They go to an option where they feel more safe with or it feels them get them going a little bit more. But that was the ultimate trust, wasn't it? We're nil-nil away from home and they said, go on then, you take it. So that's really, really good. It also shows you that confidence is still in him, right?

35:25The way he takes that, that's not the penalty of someone who's feeling insecure about their situation. Yeah, when we have something like this,

35:33Elliot:which is obviously polarizing, and we can obviously, some people have a different view of what he was for us, you know, looking around to other people and other clubs like Haaland and comparing and looking at Eketika and comparing. They're not comparing to some of the other strikers not done so well. And the fact that he has scored more goals than anybody else in our club this season, don't worry about that too much. He's not really done it properly, maybe. I mean, some of the more technical aspects have been a little bit patchy, you know, particularly back to goal. I didn't really expect that.

36:03Elliot:I'd expect him to read the referees a little bit more by now. You know, I think he still thinks he's not playing in England, and I've said it a few times, even more times than I should have. But I think he's expecting more help from referees, and it's just not going to happen, mate. You look like a wardrobe, so play like one. You know what I mean? And that's the way it goes. and even on that penalty, I actually think the first penalty was a penalty. What O 'Brien did was bumped him early and he did it. So when the ball goes past, your eyes are saying, well, you should just head that in. But he's already been bumped and the natural thing for a striker is to think, well, I can probably go down here.

36:42Elliot:Well, actually, I'm thinking, mate, if you can stay on your feet, just head it in. It was a great moment for you. But hey, look, why would he go down if he didn't get bumped? You know, and that's the truth. He got bumped and it would have been a massive decision because that would have been a red card and a penalty, right? And that would have changed again completely into the lowest block. You know, so maybe it's a good thing that didn't happen. But yeah, I think he knows how to kick a football idiot. I don't think it's that difficult. He knows how to kick it. He kicks it really hard, you know?

37:15Elliot:He's got to do that more. He's got to do that more. and... Can I ask you on that point? So the one where Saliba... Saliba was imperious on the ball in this game. The one where he drives into midfield and slides it into Jokeres and Jokeres takes a really good first touch turns and shoots, but he can't get separation from Tarkovsky. Tarkovsky gets in a good block and then goes off Jokeres and his goal kick. I want to ask you about this specifically because is that an example of Jokeres that half step of extra pace on his turn to get his shot away in Portugal, that's a clean shot and probably a goal.

37:47in England Tarkovsky gets back is that just great defending or is or do do we want to read into that a little bit more about the ability to get separation when you turn I think if you want to

37:57Elliot:have a critique of your career for me it's more technical than physical I think the physical there's more explanation for it not being where in the right place then he got better then dropped away again and looking he's starting to look a bit better now physically but technically some of the hold-up playing, the numbers are there, Eddie, has not been great. And even on that one, great run, two gears run, across the face of the defender. Defender sees him a little bit late, has to react, he's at top speed. Gets it on time and his first touch, he towed it back towards the defender. If he tows it out away from the defender, he cuts across the defender, through legs, bottom corner, side netting, goal.

38:35Elliot:And these are the details he has to sharpen up on. When he shifts it to one side, maybe that's got to be a bit sharper. because the defenders are coming, they're coming hard and fast. You know, I mean, I just want to give an example of this. Even when you get that angle pass, Isaac scores at the weekend and bless him, he's gone on, he's been smashed half a second later and he's broken his leg, right? And I'll tell you now, if it's a broken leg, he's done well. Do you know what I mean? Because Van der Ven was a million miles now. If that's an ACL, he's gone for a year. I don't understand how it's not a red card, by the way.

39:08It's a scissors challenge.

39:09Elliot:Well, this is England's way. This is what we do, right? what we do we allow that good hard stuff he got there as quick as he could he went for the ball he went for the ball at a million miles an hour and smashed straight through him you know and that career is not in jeopardy but what a start to a career he's had at Liverpool I'm not I'm not trying to be sympathetic this is what happens a lot and we just wave it off you know so another reminder that winning winning the window isn't winning football because Wurtz and and Izak were 230 million pounds or whatever and Wurtz has basically been mediocre would be polite and Izak hasn't been able to get on the pitch.

39:46Elliot:I'm not sure if Wurtz has got a goal or an assist yet. He got an assist, I think, in sending Izak to be with the Angels. Okay, sorry, mate. I think he got an assist in this game anyway. Yeah, and basically, and this is the nature of football. It just takes a while and I do feel free, Izak, on that one. And this is the same thing. defenders are proper, mate. In every single team, they move well. I think it's showing up in Europe. When we go to Europe right now, the English team's doing so well physically. You know, they look so strong, really strong against the best competition. So, yeah, Chris got a bit to do technically, in my opinion, to really get there.

40:29Elliot:You've got to sharpen up his feet, sharpen up his head, get his feet set, protect the ball, get on the angle, don't receive it straight, and start to bounce and move. and realize you can't be basic and do it in one run. You've got to do it in two. You've got to sharpen it up a little bit. Do it in two. And I'm sure the coaches are working with him because we can all see it, can't we? So we just need to work with him. And look, I get it. There are moments where he's doing exactly the right thing and it's not necessarily being rewarded. We can see that too. But the goal of Arsenal Football Club isn't for Victor Yorchrist to be good.

41:02It's for Arsenal Football Club to be good. And the one that I've seen people take issue with is where Timber was in on the overlap. Yolkres does a great job running fast, hard, early to get across the defenders. And the ball across the box is on if Timber wants to play it. And Yolkres maybe has a tap-in. It's a hard first-time kind of pass right across the corridor of uncertainty. You can get it wrong, and it goes right to the keeper. Instead, Timber cuts it back to Saka. Saka should score. Saka should score. He's got the keeper out of the goal, and he goes low with his right foot first time. If he goes high with that, it's a goal.

41:38If he takes a touch, puts it on his left, he roofs it and it's a goal. He doesn't. But my point isn't about Saka missing the chance, is that people want that slit across to Jokras. The goal isn't to maximize Jokras, it's to maximize Arsenal. And I think the pullback leads to as clear a chance as you could ask for from your best player. But to be fair to Jokras, we can also analyze that that's really good early hard running. It doesn't have to be a goal to credit the player for doing the right thing, right? We should be able to analyze football around whether the players are doing the things they should do.

42:06And I think it's a really good hard run from Yokoz there to get into the position he needs to be in. So if Timber chooses that pass, it's not like the Wolves game where he's on his heels, but he gets onto the ball. And that's what we want to see. And so instead of being outcome-driven, I'll say that's an example of Yokoz doing the right things that he needs to do to be in the position should that ball come to him. And then over time, it does come to him. Tim, do you have thoughts on this? I think it's an interesting thing real quick on the Yokoz thing is that Mikel Arteta, I think, showed you in this game where his trust factor is because he only made three subs.

42:40Two of them he made very late. He left the starters on for most of the game. But the one he made early is Jokras for Jesus. And I think that tells you, out of the group that was on the pitch, the old guard, Leo and Odegaard and Saka and Rice and Zubamendi. Well, Zubamendi's not the old guard, fair enough. Timberg, Halthiori, and Sleep. He knows his core that he trusts. Jokras was the one he was willing to sub off quickest to get Jesus on and presumably maybe just to have even more control on the ball. But what do you think of this Yocres performance overall and Mikel's decision to make a relatively early change there to bring Jesus on?

43:15Yeah, and he could have brought Marino on there. I'm sure that would have been going through his mind as well. I'm sure maybe it swung for Jesus just because he kind of needs the minutes for his fitness, but I'm sure he'd love to. I think Marino is part of that core group as well, even if he wasn't quite in this particular game. For me, this was a better... Well, he did come on. He did come on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He came on right at the end. For me, this was a better Jokeres game, maybe from a relatively low bar, but a better one. And the reason I think it's a better one is because I think this is more...

43:48I actually think... I mean, Clive's right. He will... I remember Ozil went through this a lot as well. And Ozil is not the size or physicality of Jokeres, but that first six months in England where you look at the referee and the referee's like, no. But at the same time, particularly in the second half, when you're behind, you can see where those Everton players' hands are. And, you know, I think when someone's got you in a sleeper hold, it is just genuinely difficult to do much about it. Or someone's pulling your hair or, you know, got their fingers where they shouldn't be and stuff like that.

44:24like the stuff that referees let go is like there's just times I was looking at it I was like how on earth can you think having like arms up around the neck how is that not a foul and it's really it's unbelievable at times but I do think that Jocares look to me looks better I think I'm prepared to change this view but the games he's played away his best games I think could be Newcastle away and Burnley away and this was closer to those right this was largely we want to keep the ball on the floor because we don't want to smash it up to Dan Byrne or Tarkovsky I nearly called him Yagi Elka there um you know very similar you could have a very easy mistake yeah and whoever the hell seven foot three players Burnley have got a centre-back like you know and I I actually think that's kind of better because then the physical fight is not about winning the header per se.

45:23It's more about your actual upper body strength. It's coming into your chest and your midriff and all of that. And I think he's better when the centre-backs want to get close to him, basically. So this game, yeah, Newcastle, Burnley, Keenan Tarkovsky, they're all over you like a rash. They're allowed to do whatever the hell they want. I think he almost needs to feel that contact because what he is really really good at is pinning and rolling players now when he can do that in the penalty area that's obviously better you can't always do that as a striker sometimes we need you to do that 40 yards from goal I think he's a player who needs physical contact I think where he suffers and becomes a bit of a non-entity is when Wolves sit 10 players in their penalty area and say we're not coming anywhere near you like you go over there 40 yards from goal and do whatever the hell you want we're not following you um I think that's where he struggles a bit more so I thought this was this was much better from him and he should take heart from the fact that he was picked I think it would have been easy not to you talked about trust there earlier again I'm sure that in his heart of hearts maybe Arteta might have even preferred to go with Marino for this game up front but I think he probably knew I kill Jokeres if I do that to him now.

46:40If I do that to him now with all the conversation that's around, I think what's quite relevant as well is when he scored those goals against Atleti, the amount the team came over to him, that speaks very well of the camaraderie. But it also tells you when that happens is the players know that the guy's low on confidence. And I think it probably is affecting him, the not scoring. And he knows that. And Arteta's referenced it as well. he's protecting him but he's saying yeah that's like that's the deal that's what's going to happen at a team like Arsenal so I think you can see that as much as Arteta might be saying to him you're doing a great job for the team you're doing great stuff the run you were talking about for Saka the Saka chance like he takes players away from Saka by doing that as well that's the reason Saka has two seconds to get a shot off and I'm sure they're showing him all those clips and I'm sure he's going yeah but I want to score that's what I want to do that's what I've been bought to do and that's what everyone's going to judge me on.

47:37So I thought he played well in this game. You know, he takes the penalty, he gets his goal, wins the game. I think everyone needed that. But at the same time, I'm still not convinced I'd go with him against Villa and Brighton just because I don't think that's going to be a centre-back-up-your-backside situation. It's funny because Villa, and maybe I'm misunderstanding what Villa are now, but I think Villa is a game where he can excel because I think they give you some of that room to run into. Brighton, I'm not as sure. I will say, too, for the people that treat him like he's not a footballer and that all he can do is run fast and kick it in the net, he did have a really beautiful moment in midfield where he received it and spun it out to Saka for a great counterattack, just as we saw him do against Burnley.

48:19It's not that he can't do it, just understanding one another. I want to move on, Clyde, but not before we get another quick bit of feedback from you on this because I want to talk about the first 10, 15 minutes of the second half, but go for it. yeah so

48:32Elliot:that bit where you received it and spun it out to Saka is what I mean by taking it on the angle when you come at it from an angle then it's a continuity pass when you come at it straight then it can only go back into the tunnel so if you come at it straight you know what you need next to you you need number 10 right near you that you can bounce off to and those two games Burnley and Newcastle he had Eze at number 10 and look at the average position in those games he had someone to play with going back to goal to receive the ball, he has clarity. If he wins it, great. If he doesn't, he affects the exit of the defenders and we pick up the second ball with a central number 10.

49:13Elliot:And so his role becomes much more beneficial to the team. What's happened in recent weeks, if you've gone back to wide triangles, check the other positions out for yourself. And when he's up there on his own, he's completely isolated. And I'm not sure he has the clarity and the technical ability to keep it. Because I'm not sure he has that clarity of the next thing I want to do. What I want to achieve, I try and get a foul for my team on my own. I'm not getting a foul. Gladly, I was getting this foul last year. Do you know what I mean? And who's my partner to bounce it with? Who is it? So you've got to spin into wide area, son, like Jay-Z has done, who spent my half the time with left wing in this game.

49:50Elliot:Or you do something, you come back deeper, and your wingers will go ahead of you, and you come back deeper and start bouncing it five or so. If you're going to do that, it might as well be Ramin. Rami, Marino, sorry. Marino. So that makes sense, isn't it? Yeah, Do you remember the run? There was one where he ran up the left-hand side and he got the ball in behind up the left-hand side and he tried to split two defenders in the box. He tried to pull his leads goal off again, remember? He tried to cut it back in left-hand side of the box. Who played that pass? Was it Trossard? Was it Cal Fiore? It was either Cal Fiore or Trossard.

50:22Actually, Trossard. Because it was one of his leaders.

50:25Elliot:Yeah, because the reason why I say that because Trossard seems to get him and funny enough, when I remember watching Gareth Bell struggling at Real Madrid. And Modric was the only one that passed to him. It felt a little bit like that. Trossard seems to get him and pass the ball in early. And because he knows it's coming, he goes. And I think he's a little bit hesitant with some others because they hold the ball a little bit longer. You know, and so this is all part of the settling in period. I'm not looking to blame anybody. It's just part of getting to know your teammates and get the most out of one particular player.

50:58Elliot:I'm not sure if Arsenal are geared towards getting the most from one particular player. They tend to be a collective, as Tim said, orchestra, the words that he used. And we don't do that. But when you've got a centre forward like him, I feel you are duty bound to give him something that he likes. Yeah. So the only thing I'd say about that moment where he was played in down the left-hand side, I just don't think there are going to be a lot of scenarios from that where he's going to be able to carry it into the box, beat two defenders and get his goal. but the distances to the other players in attack was very far and he didn't have the ability.

51:28To your point, the clarity of the next action wasn't there, so he just put his head down and tried to bully his way into the box. I remember that. By the way, I have to say it because it probably won't get a mention otherwise and I just remembered it. For the Zubomendi post that he hits, when he hits the post, that move, there is a Calafiori pass in that buildup, cross field pass out to Saka, and it's just like, woof. There are a few of them. That was a big part of the game plan. and suck them over to one side or onto and go in. I thought that might have been Odegaard, actually. It was Cal Fiore, and it was incredible.

52:02Yeah, yeah. I want to talk midfield dynamic. I think there's more meat on that bone, and I think I want to talk a little bit about the 10 minutes post-half time because I think that's an important period to discuss for a few reasons. So before we do that, I do want to let you know that it is natural to want to be able to watch the football you love, the TV shows you love, the movies you love, and even the social media content you love. But the leaders at Evil Corp do not want you to watch it because they invented something called geolocking. Now this geolocking invention they created, it is pure evil.

52:42It is sprung from the minds of evil men who say, no, no, you shall not watch the content you wish to consume because you are currently occupying a few atoms of the wrong continent or nation. So you cannot consume this content. But the good people at NordVPN said, nay, nay, you shall watch this content. You shall click a button on your device and you shall be able to tear down these geo fences or geo walls. And that's what they've done. You get the NordVPN app, you click where you want to browse and you can watch whatever you want to watch. Why wouldn't you do that? That's a question. Why would you have someone say, this is the funniest video I've ever seen and you click on it it says not available in your area why would you give up?

53:21why would you let Evil Corp win when you can defeat Evil Corp with NordVPN? when there's a football match that you want to watch when there's a show that isn't out in your area yet NordVPN is your solution put it on any device click the place you want to browse in you can do it plus they have threat protection so if you're on dodgy stream you're covered there as well NordVPN.com slash ArsenalVision you get a huge discount off your Nord plan and four bonus months and it's 30 days risk free so NordVPN.com slash ArsenalVision NordVPN.com slash ArsenalVision nordvpn.com slash nordvpn.com is that number that indeed now that clive do you work for or have you ever worked for evil corp no good don't do that don't do that we must push back against evil corp at every turn uh okay so clive i'm gonna stick with you for a second i i had the ump over one particular period of the game and it was a period of the game that i think we saw a reversion to some of the things that we have not liked recently.

54:18And that was that first 10 or 15 minutes of the second half. Following halftime, we did that thing. Go long a lot, don't pass it well, don't keep the ball, make it nervy, lose possession, let the game feel more basketball-y, let them drive through our middle. And I'm wondering what you think happened and how we sort of stopped it, stemmed the tide of that, because it started to feel like the performances that I haven't loved recently right after halftime.

54:48Elliot:yeah so i suppose i i don't fully agree with what you put out some of the recent performances on the reasons why they haven't gone so well however in this period i think we were just inaccurate you know some of us passing was just inaccurate and it just creates momentum it creates free kicks it creates people not being quite ready to recede the ball and then haven't been losing it and they're giving away a free kick which creates territory which then allows long throwing to our box you're bouncing balls timbers in the ground i don't know how many times you heard the word handball all the time because it seemed to be the number one tactic players are players are really asked about given that there's so little clarity around handball right now clive and anything can be a handball i think it's led to players trying to call for handball every time the ball is bouncing around they were just flicking the ball up around the box bouncing helping it on, hoping to find an arm, and Grealish was in top four and trying to get a penalty at the referee.

55:47Elliot:It just felt a little bit like that. Obviously, after the game, I was more anxious about a lack of finishing during the game. That was the only thing they had. They were waiting for something like that, a set-piece or a penalty decision. It was how they were going to score, really. So we got a bit nervy, and there was a period where we were just inaccurate, really. and um so yeah that was all it was i don't think there's anything more technical than that i i think um i don't i don't think i don't want to over egg it there was nothing technical apart from inaccuracies i'm talking about things like passing the ball california stepping over it thinking someone's behind him and he goes out for a throw do you know i mean what was that for me oh i thought it's for him next week they have a throw and they're going down the line does i mean kick it off get a corner oh bloody hell do you know i mean literally that's it and and with a premier game this year the corners look like a freaky edge of the air isn't it you know and so um but our goalkeeper was fantastic on crosses they took early crosses and he read them really well and he hasn't had to do that for a while because people know he's good everton were struggling with their fluency in midland midfield so they went very much to the early cross to get it into an area and he read it because the crosses weren't great quality and and that's all it was really There's a small period where we were inaccurate.

57:03Elliot:I don't think we had any bad habits. You know, I didn't sense anything, just pure inaccuracy and a little bit of lack of quality for about a 10-minute period. Yeah, and the period sort of wraps up with their shout for a penalty. And we're not going to do a section on this because I don't think it needs it. So I'll just have my say on it and then shut you guys out from the conversation. This is a classic example of anybody who watches football currently knows this is a penalty. and we got lucky. Now, I don't think this should be a penalty. This is two players contesting a loose ball, both trying to kick the ball.

57:40There's nothing in it, really. But one player gets the ball and the other player gets the player. This is the same thing that kind of costs Saliba the penalty against Brighton with his head, except with his foot. Except in that case, Saliba got the ball with his head. That one is a more egregious example of it shouldn't be a penalty. It's a coming together. This is a coming together. Shoulder to shoulder, is it coming together? Leg to leg, is it coming together? This is not a penalty. But I think we can all agree, if we're being honest, this gets given as a penalty. And I think the only reason it doesn't is very simple.

58:11He retracts the landing gear. He takes both feet off the ground, and he plays up the contact. And I think he does it, and it costs him the penalty. I think the extent to which he exaggerates the contact costs him the penalty. I know there are some people that are passing around a video that suggests it actually went off Saliba's knee first. Guys, it didn't go off Saliba's knee first. It just didn't. This is like the gold dress, green dress thing, or blue dress, whatever the color the dress was. It's not that color, it's the other color. Went off, it didn't go off Saliba's knee first. But again, I don't think it should be a penalty, and I think the right decision was reached.

58:46But it is going to be a penalty if it happens again, so let's hope it doesn't happen again. Tim, before we get into the full meat of the midfield conversation, I think we should just take a second to recognize that whatever your configuration of the midfield ideally should be or what the perfect midfield is, a platonic ideal of a midfield, whatever it is, it includes a player like Declan Rice who game to game to game is just getting better and better and better. And Clive said this on the IR and it was so good, I'm going to steal it now. If you're going to bitch and moan at your teammates in the Wolves game and scream and yell and storm off and be seen having the hump.

59:28You know how you make sure that that doesn't become an issue? You go out and you play even better in a win the next game. That's exactly what he did. He is a player with a unique capacity, despite the amount he runs and the amount of energy he puts in to look better late in games. He grows into games. And he was brilliant in this game. He sets up Leo beautifully. By the way, it's a beautiful flowing move for that, what should have been a goal. And Odegaard sensationally finds Rice and Rice. the weight of pass matters we saw so many wrong weights of pass to yokores to timber to saka the weight of the past to leo is perfect but mikhail was understandably glowing in his praise for declan rice on his performance quote unbelievable his all-around play his leadership on the pitch i think it's interesting he called that leadership by the way the amount of balls that he regained as well that allowed us to run he has been incredibly consistent this year again and what a massive player he is for us.

1:00:24And just from the stats standpoint, you know, if you tell me that Declan Rice is going to have the most touches in the game, I'm going to feel pretty good about that. And he did 116 touches in this game. He had the most passes into the final third of any Arsenal player with 10. He created two chances. He obviously recovered the ball a hell of a lot because that's just what he does. 10 ball recoveries, which is of course the most other than david raya who just claimed most aerials won all of his areas most aerials won yeah so not what you'd associate him with but no he did at some point i have to turn this over to you tim so there you go how good is definitely yeah i mean so you know uh i guess something i say a lot as well as like some players are made by the system and some systems are made by the player that this is a player who just makes stuff work because what he does basically i think clive alluded to this he just cleans all the mess up basically he's like like a washing machine like that ball breaks for a second does it no Declan Rice has got it don't worry like he's he just like he just fixes a lot of stuff I think that's what he does I think um you know the thing about him having the most touches as well again I think this was something you said Clive uh I can't remember it was on one of the Patreon pods but actually is the personality of this team has it come away from Erdegaard and gone to Rice.

1:01:51You know, it's like the absolute, like, you know, the defining player.

1:01:56Elliot:Stop reading my mind. Like the defining player in the team because, like, yeah, his touch is a long way up. His creativity, even in open play, is a long way up. And he is just incredible. He's one of the most all-round footballers I think I've ever seen. Have you ever had that kind of idle football discussion that's good to have sometimes where it's like, if you could have 11 of one of your players, who would you choose? It's Declan Rice. There's no doubt about that. Yeah, I used to say Yaya Torre to that. Exactly. I think Declan Rice is sort of that same kind of thing, honestly. Exactly. Exactly that.

1:02:35Yeah. Because could I see Declan Rice at center back? Yeah. Right back, left back, up front. I could see him everywhere. I really could. and uh and yeah like clive's right like a lot of the stuff we're talking about is quite highfalutin in terms of like keeping the ball keeping the crowd and all of that but you can't do that 100 perfectly in every game there are going to be moments of chaos there are going to be moments where you're disorganized um and again see this in the women's team by the way they play without like a number six and talk a lot about but if our structure's okay that's all right but it's like your structure's not always okay that's just football and when it's not you need someone who can just run back and win the ball just like that and and we've got certainly the best guy doing that in the world and it's not even like it's like probably his outstanding attribute but he's got loads of others to go on as well and like I said when we signed him I'd watched him closely at West Ham and he'd add something to his game every year and I think what we're seeing is he's played quite a lot of years now and he's added quite a lot of stuff it was really interesting as well that David Moyes obviously talked about him after the game Declan Rice gave David Moyes his due you know like had a picture with him and put it on insta and said I'm so thankful to this man and and David Moyes was asked about him afterwards and said like it's pretty much nothing to do with me but he was talking about like what a great you know he's talking saying he's like he's a great kid.

1:04:04He's a great guy to have around. And yeah, he just, he looks like a unicorn player. Like I, you know, I'm going to breathe the words Patrick Vieira. You know, I think it's very similar. I really do. Very, very similar. And maybe similarly misunderstood, right? In the sense that everyone thought, oh, Vieira's a destroyer. Vieira wasn't a destroyer. Gilberto Silva was the invisible wall and Vieira went and did everything. And in a way, Zubamendi is that, so Rice can go do everything. And I think that is just sort of an interesting entry point, Clive, to how these dynamics of midfields fit together.

1:04:39And there's such an interesting conversation to be had that doesn't need to be shut down by bad faith about how we build the right midfield. And I think this is the other beautiful thing, because you've really made this clear to me. There doesn't have to be a first 11. A game doesn't have to just be one set of 11. You can change your face in a game. You can change your face based on the game that you have. And we finally have the ability to do that with the players that we've acquired and added into this squad. I do think it's notable that Zubimendi, his role has been a little less clear for me of late.

1:05:12And in this game, he had two very good goal-scoring opportunities, but maybe wasn't as good in possession and in build-up phase. So what do you think about how the midfield dynamic is evolving? I think it is still evolving is sort of where I'm at with it. Yeah.

1:05:27Elliot:If you want to go back and listen to my post-Villa IR, that was a little bit hot for me but it was quite that's the first time i saw it i saw it um i'm a huge i love the dynamics of declan rice and zubamendi i i would not change those two for any two in world football that's how much i believe in those two footballers i think the combination is perfect what they do how they blend how they understand each other how they can do any job So when they go high, they're still an effective player. They can counter-press. And when they go low, they can defend. Look at Zubmendi's aerial dual numbers. Incredible.

1:06:10Elliot:And defensive interceptions. Yet he's the most accurate pass for most weeks. And Declan writes, well, Tim's already done it. What's the point in doing it again? I mean, he's just a joke, right? When they do those things, now they do a preview of a game. Arsenal v Man City. Who do you think the Man City player is going to be? it's going to be like Haaland isn't it and who do you think the Arsenal player is going to be it's going to be Saka or Rice well Saka yeah Saka or Rice and I'll tell you now if it was today it'll be Rice you know and it's just sort it's dawning on me it's dawning on me probably Villarreal pre-season when he didn't play and we were getting run through and I'm thinking it's just a pre-season game I'm thinking bloody Rice didn't but you know what if Declan Rice is out there I'm sure we'll be fine you know what I mean And this has just continued.

1:06:59I just can't see a situation where him not being on the pitch is beneficial.

1:07:04Elliot:I think Forrest at home, he didn't start. And Mourinho played very, very well. But hey, look, moving into the number 10 situation, or the third midfielder situation, I do believe some phases of this game, having Odegaard drop was what the desired tactics were, what we discussed earlier on. but overall i believe that we've we've had an isolated setup forward since odegaard's come in because he has a tendency to play as a right eight and that forces other people to move zubamendi's cross remember the cross preseason bilbao set back cross first time yokarez bang heads it in zubamendi can create on that right slot timba can create in that right slot what you're doing is you're stopping people going into areas to do things because someone else is there continuously when Eze plays that it took me a while to get this by the way and I'm not saying Eze better than Odegaard I'm saying when Eze plays the 10 he plays it far more centrally and that allows other people to coexist with him and and he can create associations with the left side and the right side and I feel as a team we are structurally better for a central 10 I don't care who it is.

1:08:23Elliot:By the way, Marina can do it. Havertz can do it. I think even Jesus can do it. Tim watches the women's team at the moment. Beth Mead is coming in and doing a number 10 role on occasion in certain phases of play. It doesn't bother me who does it. It's how you interpret the role. And the role for me in this team with centre forwards who are not lethal and we've got two, we've got Havertz who played basically two or three games this calendar year. Jesus has played the same. So we've got two long-term injuries. We've got Jokeres who's still settling into the league. And we've got your defensive midfielder, mate Marino, been the best of the lot from an efficiency point of view, but can't obviously play in all phases of games, right?

1:09:05Elliot:So that number 10 position is so important to almost allow you to develop your nine. And if you look at this team, I don't think anyone's too concerned which of our eight defenders play, if they're all fit. We know the four best that we'd like. Maybe we can debate one or two. I don't think people are concerned about our centre mids. We're always concerned about them getting rest. Left side, we've got a bit of a deal there. I think Trostar won't do it for the whole season. But we've got other options there. Eze, for example, and Maduweke and Saka can roll out. We've got other options if we want to do it.

1:09:40Elliot:But, mate, 9 and 10, that's it for me. That is the season. It's the season. how we make that area work is the season. I don't mean too dramatic. It's the season. Defensively, Elliot, we are going to, if we get our bodies healthy, we're going to be fine. Can we get that bit working? Can we get that centrality? Can we get the directness needed to play against unsettled defenses? If we can, we're going to be fine. Tim, what's your take on that? And I do want to just call out in this game, I think there were two halves that were quite different in a way, because I think we all saw the times Odegaard early on in the first half was dropping deep all the way, you know, back in the left-back position between the center backs receiving, going and getting it.

1:10:26In the second half, I felt he was making a concerted effort to stay higher up and to the right, in that right half space, high up. And that's how you wind up with a very left-side bias game where Declan Rice has the most touches in the game. But I think that there was a bit of a split in that. And I also think there were two periods of the game in terms of our midfield dynamic looking more or less effective, which is I think in the first half, as we already called out, we had more of the ball, right? We suppressed shots. They had zero shots in the first half. But we had 10 touches in the opposition box, and we didn't really create much threat aside from the penalty, of course, which is a lot of threat.

1:11:04Comes from a handball in a corner, though. In the second half, when the game stretched out and there was more verticality and there was more back and forth, we had a lot more touches in the opposition box right we had a lot more threat we created some really beautiful flowing attacking moves and I think Odegaard was central to some of our most beautiful moves of the game in that second half in what I think was a quite different game state and game approach so how do you parse all that in terms of how the midfield is looking and why it maybe looked different at different times in the game yeah I'd say I'd say actually something just kind of an aside that's under discussed I think with Zubimendi is how good he is in the air and actually how important that is.

1:11:42It seems to me that even when Arteta takes him off because he senses maybe a bit of redundancy, Marino's usually on. And I think that's another part of the reason Zubimendi will stand between the centre-backs because he's very good in the air. I think, I'm with Clive, I think there's no debate about Rice and Zubimendi. That's kind of the double pivot. I think that and the centre-backs alike and the goalkeeper, are like... Saka. And Saka, yeah. Those are the ones that there's just no argument about. And the rest are kind of interchanging pieces with preferences, obviously Timber, Calafuri, Trossard at the moment, you know.

1:12:22But essentially, like kind of on the outside of the team, really, bar Saka, like things will probably rotate a bit more. I think, I'm with Clive on that 10-9 combination thing. um i think what's kind of interesting with our attack and i'm not saying yet that this is a mistake it might be the way we've kind of built the attack maybe we've overcorrected a problem right in that we didn't have enough options last year and it's like oh my god like we've done like three transfer windows worth of shopping in attack in one go and now what we're seeing is and we've talked about this a lot recently we're seeing like there's not a lot of cohesion and chemistry there and how do you get that when you're constantly changing everyone and everything and you know it's that paradox isn't it you want options you want rotation but actually when you get it you kind of realize sometimes it's better not to have the choice at all I think that kind of happened with Liverpool and all of a sudden obviously like Izak getting injured like is terrible but like Izak getting injured and Salah going to AFCON kind of almost settles things down for them because it makes them, it's going to force them to decide.

1:13:37And actually, I think you've seen that recently. They kind of took the decision to take Salah out and that's created an off pitch problem, but it's settled things down on the pitch where they've just gone, right, we're going to try and make this work. I think the interesting thing about some of the profiles in our attack now is they're so specific, which is kind of good and bad so Madueke for example against Bruges he scores twice but then we have two games that aren't Madueke games because of his very specific qualities so we don't get him in and then we've got like you know Martinelli and Trossard are so different and and but and and the number nines are all very different but for me the the key piece about this midfield is there's kind of Ezer and Odegaard for that, shall we say, 10 spot.

1:14:25And they could not be more different. They couldn't be more different. You've got the high 500 touches a game guy who go and get the ball off the centre-backs, but his goal threats completely disappeared. Or you've got the guy who takes, like on a good day, 15 touches, but three or four of them are shots on goal and and actually sometimes in a team you want a bit of diversity of profile but sometimes the polls can be so far apart that they quite drastically change the way you play and I think that's something we're going through a little bit at the moment and we might get to a good stage where it's like Everton away we want to keep the ball on the floor we want to play keep away piggy in the middle wherever you're from um dictates how what you name that so it's Erdegaard today and Eza doesn't even come on because we don't want that.

1:15:17But we're at home to Tottenham. They play horrible football where they're 5-4-1. We're playing Eza because we want someone to get shots off. And eventually we'll probably find some of the relationships. I still think the best we have looked is... Marino was not playing number nine in my view. He was playing number 10 and I think Eza was playing more as a nine ahead of him. I think that's the best we've looked so far this season.

1:15:43Elliot:I've agreed. yeah this is a it's great to have these conversations with some smart people i think leave me out of the yeah i think let's take this a little bit deeper shall we um when you introduce eight new players into your squad what you have is a group of players that are desperate to play and then you then you have then you have martin o'dagard has three injuries this season and while he's been out because he when he got injured last year he came back in he tried to played to his top level but he really struggled right we all thought he had a problem he was losing a bit of weight right about the ankle and we were all thinking come on come back come back we need you you run this attack and while he's been out it's like being a it's like you're at work you're in a project team and you've all got your roles in the project team right and then one of you the one of you goes off sick for a while and when you come back to the project team maybe your role has been shared amongst other people and now you've got to come back here you've got to reintegrate into the team?

1:16:42Elliot:And do you come back and try and do the exact role you were doing before? Or do you look for the role that the team requires? And this is my integration concern, because I no longer think the team is as desperate for build-up qualities, because I think the team has transformed and evolved, where build-up qualities are no longer required from our number 10 what's required for number 10 is a lot more last pass last action last shot and it may be 35 touches not 65 but i'm okay with it and the newcastle game was a day the light was shone to me i thought oh my goodness look at this team look at it look at the danger look at how we're crushing zone 14 remember we kept saying zone 14 zone 14 the guys are sick we were the scene ticket what does zone 14 cry what's that mean mate and i'm saying mate it's by the d look how we're crushing it look how many people are in that zone waiting for the ball to drop we're not doing that anymore we split to the sides again already so we need to reintegrate people into firm roles get back to the the correct balance of our units within the team you know get back to that and as soon as we're back to that and the roles become clearer to tim's point what tim's saying really in summary is we're trying to integrate all these different profiles into a group and they're so different well they're not so different it's easier to do when you create the right units with the right psychological and technical and physical balance as soon as you have it you see it if you complex it by separating to wide areas to build up well i don't think we need to we don't need to these teams can't stop us mate and if we have people in the right areas we can counter press and we can take them on that way.

1:18:32Elliot:I just feel this is about integrating key people into our group again. We've got one more in Havertz, by the way, and Jay's is to do. And I think there's a set of people in our front ends of our pitch that are looking at this thinking, I need to force my way in. And if I need to change the regime here and who runs this shit, I'm going to do it. And that's what Declan Wright said, I've had enough of this, mate. I'm running this show. i'm running it and i'm going to show everybody what i've got i'm no longer lieutenant i'm going to lead it and other players go look at him and think when i get a chance i'm tearing this up and i'm tearing this up and i'm going to deliver and we're going to be forced to look at people you know not coddle them but look at people and that's all for what we want if you think that's not happening in the club at the moment my god they want to tear into each other to get that shirt and that's that's what we want so we need to look at the game look at what the team requires don't worry about who plays look at the role look what's needed you know it's goals against we've won it for the last three years no trophies it's goals four is going to win us that league without doubt it's a title on the line it's a champions league on the line it's a world cup year and if Kai is back for Brighton.

1:19:49The bench is going to have Nelly, Kai, Marino, Eza, Ethan, Nani. I mean, they may not all even make the bench. They may not even make the squad. So, yeah, there's a big fight on people's hands to decide what their Arsenal future and footballing future is and what our future is as a group. I'm going to do a bit here, if you'll allow it. Go on, my son. Get in there. so the first thing I want to say is just some things on this game I thought this was a fantastic game for Martin Odegaard who in the first half I thought he was doing some of the things that I don't necessarily connect to as much as being as necessary in a world where we have Rice and Zubomendi I think there was some redundancy I think as the game wore on the way he stitched attacks together and the way we flowed through the thirds was brilliant and I think that there was a clarity of purpose and role and I think it really showed up in that beautiful flowing move that led to the Leo chance it should have been a goal and if that's a goal we're watching it on repeat over and over and over again.

1:20:45And it's a great example how you can build from back to front and right to left. And Saka slips Odegaard in the half space. And Odegaard plays a beautiful ball to Rice. And Rice is showing up in the middle. And Leo's on the outside. And it's just beautiful. So I loved it. I also want to say, and I'll crib this from you, Clive, how does it make you feel? There are certain players for the tense moments of a game when it's tight and it needs to get over the line. And I'm with the manager on who I think the players are for that moment. Because I I can tell you this. On 75 minutes at 1-0, I was not thinking get Eze in this game.

1:21:16That was not in my head. Okay? I also want to say I think what complicates this is that Eze, I think, has had mixed performances for us as we've tried to integrate a very different role. But I do want to say just a few things about how I'm thinking about this. One is about the actual construction of the midfield, and the other is about the actual debate itself. So let me do the construction of the midfield part first, and if you want to skip ahead maybe 17 or 18 minutes, I'll be done. Okay? the first thing on the construction of the midfield. I went back and I listened to some pods when we were saying, can Mikel coach an attack during the bad old days?

1:21:51And one of the things that we talked about to Clive's point is zone 14, centrality, access there, how we create attacks. How do City create attacks? They go in to go out. They go into the middle to go out wide. Manchester City made a big adjustment. They had to move on from Kevin De Bruyne. They're moving on from Rodri. Who did they get this summer? They got Ryan Cherky, and Ryan Cherky is a flawed player in a lot of respects, but Ryan Cherky will flip between the lines and get into central spaces and play the best final ball you've ever seen, and they felt they needed that because that's what Erling Haaland needs, and it's working.

1:22:23It's not working perfectly, though, because they're getting attacked and they're getting run through. So it is an adjustment, and they have flaws as a result of that decision. I have always felt that Mikel Arteta wants three sixes on the pitch, more than a six and two tenths. Okay, I think Manchester City's midfield have featured a six and two eight-stroke tens, and we've featured a six and two eight-stroke sixes. That's what Mikel likes. He likes Mikel Marino as a midfielder. He likes Kai Havertz as a midfielder. He likes Rice and Zubamendi and Marino. He likes those midfields. And Martin Odegaard, whatever you think of him, Martin Odegaard will play hard in every third of the pitch in every phase of play and try to influence every phase of play.

1:23:03But to Clive's point, I think there is a question about, with Rice and Zubamendi, what is the dynamic we want in our midfield and what construction gets the most from Arsenal. And look, I've always said it. We make fun of it on the pod. I like the little fleet of foot, small space tens. I like those players. I want to get them between the lines and little slip pass and a beautiful shot from the edge of the box. And I do think that when Martin Odegaard was providing huge goal and assist numbers, this was just a non-discussion. Martin Odegaard has been one of the best midfielders in the world for a number of seasons.

1:23:37the ball progression you get from him the pressing you get from him but also the goals and assists now the goals and assists part since some injuries and for a while now that part has not been as clear and I think the clarity and purpose of his role has not been as clear and so I thought he was good in this game I think he's a brilliant player I think he's about as good as they get in terms of discussing our midfield dynamic we have a Ryan Cherky kind of decision to make what do we think maximizes our attack without exposing us to flaws and I think it is fair to point out that in some of the games where Eze has started, he hasn't been able to get into the game, and we've been run through in midfield as well.

1:24:09So there's a lot of moving parts in here. But as a last point, I want to say this. I have recently started to come into contact with some people that do not want to engage with this discussion, that it is somehow driven by a specific feeling about individual players or things like that. And I think this is a case of poisoning the well, because I'll tell you something, in the pubs in Bruges when I was out there, this conversation's being had. The pubs in North London when I was there, this conversation is being had in my chats my whatsapps this conversation is being had it's not just some idiots on the internet who are trolling and are saying strip him of the captaincy that's nonsense okay but don't let that poison the well for you don't let that take a really interesting discussion a really cool fun tactical discussion about the identity of an attack in a midfield that we have the potential to have because we have wonderful players with different characteristics for the first time Mikel Arteta has the ability to build different types of attacks oriented around Kai versus Yokores, Leo versus Nani, Eze and Odegaard together or Eze and Odegaard apart.

1:25:10These are interesting debates and let's not chill those debates because there are some idiots out there who will poison the well by making them in bad faith. That's all I would ask, right? We should really embrace having these discussions. You know why? Because we're trying to win big things. We want to be the best version of ourselves. Everybody on this pod and everybody listening wants the same thing. The best possible arsenal. And there's lots of different ways to get there. and it's fun to discuss how we get there with this magnificent squad we built. So let's have that discussion instead of yelling at each other that you can only have that discussion in bad faith because that's not what we're about.

1:25:41And by the way, if you're like, what is Elliot even talking about? Then good, you're not coming into contact with some of the stuff I am. But I do read the reactions. I do read the comments because I care about what the community thinks. And I just want us to be open to the idea that these discussions can be had together. And that's it because Clive, whatever your football mind, yours, mine, Tim's, everybody listening comes up with as the best possible construction to get the most out of Arsenal, it's worth indulging it and discussing it because we have a very big squad full of talented players.

1:26:13And if you look on that bench on Saturday night, there are a lot of players on that bench that probably think they should be on the pitch. You know?

1:26:19Elliot:Yeah, and I was watching a little clip of SA and Madaweke walking close together to go and clap the away fan team. So you would have seen them walking over towards you and they're walking together and they're mumbling and what do you think they're saying? Wait till I get on that pitch on Tuesday. Wait till I get on that pitch on Tuesday. And I'm going to show them. And why am I not playing today? I'll tell you why. Because against Aston Villa, Nonny, you were crapping the second half defensively on the outside areas. And Eze, in the first half, you let someone run off your shoulder and we lost the game.

1:26:48Elliot:So you'd have to sit now and watch and learn and remind yourself this is how it is at Arsenal. You can't, you can't cruise around. You've got to work. You've got to work really, really hard on and off the ball. And they're now coming into the team. And that's why they didn't come on in the last phase of that game, because there's another game very quickly. On the Palace game, don't think they're tired. They rested 11 players for the Conference League game the week before and then played their full team at Leeds and then lost. But we played on the same day and we won. So they're coming to the game with the amount of energy that we've got.

1:27:24Elliot:you know so um and so and so our team will be fairly strong so these people these players will have a strong role to play in that game you know so i'm glad that we this is why i've diverged the conversation away from the personal to the role and how you see the role of the third midfielder because as soon as you start to be seen to be critiquing a particular player people say you have an agenda and the discussion is then lost which is such a shame it's just a pleasure talk to you guys and Paul we can have this discussion in a way where actually for the team what are we trying to achieve you know and I think that's the key for me and Martin Odegaard can do that role you know that's it for me and just do the role you know and that's where I am with it and when we start banging in threes and fours you want to hear a damn word from me not a single word I don't care who does it but I know that's what we need to do to win this league yeah Tim I think You know, look, I think this is a 3-0 game or a 2-0 game that ended 1-0.

1:28:28And I think in the second half in particular, and Mikel called it out, we created the chances to kill this game. And it's got to be frustrating because, you know, the manager is not the one who kicks the ball in the back of the net or makes the final pass. He's the one who puts the players on the pitch. And if the players don't execute, then the manager rightly comes in for criticism. I I'm going to say something that's honest I don't know what the best Arsenal lineup is right now I don't I don't know it yeah and I don't know that Mikel knows it either good but I think over the next several weeks he kind of has to start to figure that out and whatever I want it to be is irrelevant if we can find a group because I think about two seasons ago in the room we went on 14-1-1 or whatever it was to end the season.

1:29:21He knew the group then. And I think he's going to need to know the group pretty soon now. And whatever that group is, I hope the manager feels like he knows it because that's really all that matters. Yeah, I'm less... I think the group, the 11, I think that's March, April really. I don't think it's January stuff because we had a lot of competitions like the Champions League games and stuff like that, potential League Cup games if we get through, FA Cup games if we get through, no, at that point it is going to have to be rotated. I think we just have to be more comfortable with that. I don't mean we as fans.

1:30:02I mean the group has to get better at it. And I think this is kind of some necessary pain we probably have to go through so that we can get to that kind of carousel point. I'm with you. like once you get to like april or so yeah it probably presents itself to you um you know like you said a bit like it did two seasons ago i think it's more just because the profiles of our players vary so much i think it's more working out when certain players are needed i i think this was a good sign in that direction um whereas for example against villa and wolves we didn't get that right I don't think we didn't put the right player.

1:30:43We put good players on the pitch. Pretty much anyone we put on that pitch is going to be a really good player. There's no real weak links there. Are they the right player? And as I said earlier, there's four or five players who are always the right player and are always going to be the right player. But I'm very comfortable with this game, for example. Yep, this is an Odegaard game. We want 7 ,000 passes, so we put him in. and I think it's more Mikel getting better at that like what does this game call for what does this opponent call for I think he read Everton well in this game in terms of what they do you're right everyone knows we need to we need to get more out of our attack we've got chemistry and cohesion issues there we've also probably got an issue where if we had Salah or Haaland we're not ever talking about that should have been a 2-0 game that's a 4-0 game if we've got one of them but we don't we don't have that player our most elite attacker is Saka he is the closest to that but he's still not like a 30 goal a season guy and without that like we have to create separation um in these games a lot better this you know a lot of our away games have been similar Fulham 1-0 we kept that a 1-0 but Burnley we got to 2-0 and the game the game went to bed we put it to bed we you know we put the jack boot down and it was done so it's it's about kind of getting that second goal it's also about getting that first goal as well by the way and this is the first time in an away game i think in four games that we've taken the lead and that's really important for us as well because we don't have that surefire this guy on the pitch is basically one nil um type thing um at the moment and while we don't have that we have to kind of find other ways and I think the carousel is the way to that but I think it's probably going to take a month or so until we're we're kind of good at doing that it's such a good point because why isn't Firmino remembered as the goal shy striker why is he not remembered that way because they had Mane and Salah and so his role as a facilitator was actually seen as a huge positive for them not his role as a goal shy striker and I do think that in the absence of us having an elite goal scorer.

1:33:00Everybody gets viewed through the lens of cat and they get us goals. I'll say this though, Clyde. I think Saka is actually showing some really scary form now, some really scary form. And I think Tim might have to go. Tim, do you have to go? Or are you good for a few more minutes? Tim, you're on mute. Can you? Oh, he may be engaged in another activity as we speak. So we shall see. I think Saka's showing some really scary form, and I realize the goals haven't been there in volume, but in this game, he was tricking his way past players. He was getting into the box. He's developing an understanding with Timber, and I really back him to get those goals.

1:33:47So I just want to know, Clive, if you think that maybe what we're seeing from Saka is foreboding? It wouldn't be foreboding if it's a good thing. What would it be is foretelling a potential breakthrough in his form coming? Because I thought he looked really good in this game and it was kind of everything but the goal.

1:34:11Elliot:I think Saka's a wise dude now. I think he knows the rhythm of a season. He knows when to step up. The Wolves game was a great example, right? Everyone was flat and he just said, you know what, we need to win this. I'll sort it out for everybody. Do you know what I mean? and he was head and shoulders. In the Everton game, he did what's required. Again, the game's become a little bit more right-sided. In this game, I thought left side was better in this game because Trostov's there. Califori was strong, Rice was strong. And even Zubimendi was flipping over to that side because the right side was sort of a little bit crowded.

1:34:42Elliot:And so, yeah, I think... See, I have a different view on Saka. I think he... When he got injured before Anfield, there was rumours of him being very upset. and I think that bothered him to keep missing these big games. You know, he wants us to get there and by the way, if he plays at Anfield, I'm sure we win. Had a million corners from that side and we were well in set piece over that period and so we'd have won that game and I just don't, I think he understands what to be in condition for the right part of the season and I just think he's just doing what he needs to do. He's got someone there to take the weight off of him.

1:35:19Elliot:It was a very good, just on the other side of it, There was a very good video on YouTube from TNT Sport where they had Marino, Timber, and Arteta doing an interview. It's called A Breakdown. And basically, Marino was talking about when he plays centre-forward, how he rolls into an inside diamond. And obviously, the wide players go ahead, and the wide players normally trust Harden and Saka. And I was thinking, it's very similar to what Liverpool did all those years ago, inside diamond with Firmino. But they had Mane and Salah. and we have Saka and who? Yeah? And if we're talking the biggest trophies, if we're going to play that way, then we need something else, don't we, on that side?

1:36:03Elliot:Someone who's a slashing attacker. If we want to play with a centre-forwards like Jokeres, then we need a number 10, in my opinion, stays closer to him or feeds him consistently as part of his unit and not part of the right unit. That's what I think gets the best out of him. When Havertz plays there, I think Havertz could play with, obviously, with Odegaard. They've done it before. But I think he could play with Eze as well. A right and a lefty coming in. I think Tim is spot on. The best we've looked so far this season has been with Mourinho and Eze in attack there. We trust our left, Saka on the right.

1:36:38Elliot:Who would have picked that at the start of the season? And so it's about that. It's about that chemistry. But in that chemistry, as we're trying to build the attack in our minds and build the roles and try to do some constructive thinking about how we get better. But Kiyosaka is in every one of our teams for as long as he can put one foot in front of the other because he delivers under pressure. And that's the truth. People want more from him. Just wait. It doesn't matter at this moment in time. Just do what you need to do. When it matters, it's Champions League quarterfinals, semifinals and final, and he'll be delivering in those games because he's done it three times now.

1:37:17Elliot:It'll be a third time, hopefully. And I will say something to you now that's going to scare everybody. To do what we need to do this season, we are going to Manchester, Liverpool and or Chelsea to win a big trophy. You know, if it's a European trophy or a league, we've got a Manchester City for the league. We're going to one of those teams in the Champions League, one of the English teams, we're going through them. And we're going to have to. so this team will be judged on big games and what we do in big games so elliot please my friend do not rush to pick this team right now yeah this team needs to present itself for those big games and be ready and where there's no debate on who should start and right now they're running trials mate they're running trials and they better be showing what they got to do because come those games we should be able to pick that 11 all of us without any hesitation you know and i think that's what we're building towards.

1:38:14Yeah, and I think you're absolutely right. I think Tim makes a good point too that there are certain names that we know are in every team sheet and will be for the rest of the season and everything else may be up for grabs. The weight that Mikel is going to have to bear is very simple. He's got a huge squad of talented players and he can only pick 11 of them to start a game. In any game we don't perform well or win, the reason will be he picked the wrong 11 players. That's the downside of having a big squad, right? Is that the easiest place to go when you don't perform well or win is that you pick the wrong players.

1:38:45But as long as he knows what he's trying to do with this group, he certainly has the talent to get where he wants to go. It is always important to emphasize that we are top of the Premier League and top of the Champions League at Christmas. So, and I do worry a little bit to Tim's other point he's made that we're not going to enjoy this season. I worry a little bit about that. And then we're going to wake up one morning and we're going to be putting on our, are closed for the parade having not enjoyed any of it it might be miserable i mean i'm sorry just

1:39:17Elliot:it just might be miserable see yourself at the walls game you look like you enjoyed it to me i was enjoying it i was i mean that's that's the beauty of not not always being there is you can you can find joy look a late winner you should always find joy let me just say that um all right i think this is enough on this we have the palace game tomorrow we'll do an instant reaction about it got to figure about figure out where we're going to do the next main pod it's either going to be wednesday or friday i would imagine i don't think anyone wants or needs a pod on christmas day maybe we'll record it then i don't know i mean i know paul's not doing anything he's free we can record something for you i'm not doing anything uh but it'll probably be wednesday or friday um and of course we'll have a little christmas message for you as we do every year so um thanks for being here i i do think these are such interesting and fun football discussions like we really have a very interesting set of football discussions to have this season And I just hope that people will arrive at these discussions, right?

1:40:14And engage with these discussions with a sort of intellectual curiosity and enthusiasm to have them rather than the enthusiasm to shut them down and say they shouldn't be had. That's all. And so, you know, that's one of the reasons I really appreciate everybody who listens because I think that you do take that approach to it. And if you don't, you know, I can give you Paul's email. He'd be happy to hear from you. Thank you very much. Can you permit me 10 seconds to add something else? Because I think it's important to address it. I'll give you 30 seconds. Oh, brilliant. So there was, people will have seen this on social media, but there was something about, and this is kind of an old chant that's gone on for years, but like a chant, Feed the Scousers, right?

1:40:56That's gone on for many, many years. Something really, it's a shame they need to do it. Something really good Everton need to do, not need to do, that they do, is every time the away fans sing that, they flash up the local food bank on the scoreboard. I thought it was really embarrassing that they had to do that so many times during the game because of Arsenal fans singing that song. I know a lot of people are going to be like, oh, it's just a bit of a joke, it's a bit of banter, blah, blah, blah. I think it's really worth educating people on why that's not the case. And I pride myself, I think we all pride ourselves on Arsenal being a club of class and tradition and history and let's not forget the class side of that.

1:41:34Also worth saying, this shouldn't be a regional debate at all. Islington Food Bank has made twice the number of donations this year compared to last year so this is not a regional problem it's not sung at any other supporters from any other area of the country either so it's very specific to Liverpool and when we were outside afterwards it's fair to say a lot of Everton fans were very upset about it it was kind of difficult to explain to them in that moment I agree with you I'm with you but yeah I thought that was that was below where we should be um and i felt like i should say that yeah well said there's a lot of need all over and taking the piss out of that is is not appropriate not necessary and certainly not something to be tribal about i think whether it comes to any of these issues of poverty racism um you know homophobia any of that stuff it's it's not a tribal issue it's a human issue and we're all humans and as football supporters we should all be together in those moments so well said tim certainly and you know kudos obviously to andrew james i know they're giving money to charity.

1:42:33We're going to be doing our fundraiser again and give quite a lot ourselves. It's just important to be a citizen of the world first and then a tribal supporter of Arsenal second. I'm happy to laugh at Spurs getting sent down to nine men and losing. Absolutely hilarious. Right? Happy to laugh at the misery of other clubs.

1:42:51Elliot:I think Romero was a little bit unlucky, to be honest. Oh, for God's sake. Clive with his football take. Enough. All right. We've definitely gone to the end of this podcast, but thanks for throwing that in there, Tim appreciate it and thanks for being on my pleasure as always thanks thank you very much thank you to everybody uh and I love you and I hope you're doing well and if you're not doing well I hope you know that you are loved and that you you have a people that care about you so uh wherever you are whatever you're doing there's a game tomorrow and then uh I think the FIFA Inter Toto Secondary Blue Division Cup 2 uh we just got brought into that That plays Wednesday, Thursday.

1:43:32And then Friday, we have a game. And then Saturday, no, not really, but almost. Anyway, we love you, and we will talk to you after our 10 ,000.

1:44:00Thank you.