Late Kai Winner Just The Medicine Arsenal Needed As League Campaign Resumes

31:36He was down holding his knee in the 61st minute, but came off around 69 minutes. Yeah, I think they just started finding a bit more of a rhythm. There was a period that starts around maybe 40 minutes in the first half where we're pretty consistently kind of the field tilt would be in our favor. Now they're having their dangerous moments still in terms of their their counters but they're at home so we've begun to start to play like the more dominant team to start to feel the movements the passing and like to try and imprint too much of a picture in your mind is hard because it's pretty fluid you've got especially with players like Calafiore and Rice who covers so much ground but Zubimendi and Odegaard were starting to find the pockets that each would fall into and Odegaard was spending more time up the pitch in Odegaard type area and it was starting to feel like there was a plan like the first half and I think Arteta did confirm Amy Lawrence asked the question about was the first half kind of about controlling the situation with the opponent you have them playing at home and And Arteta didn't talk her out of that.

32:53So there was a kind of a, let's get the basics right first, and then we'll start to feel ourselves and get into the right spots and make the moves. But the other part of the identity that I think you can say Arteta has impressed on his team is not waiting till the subs, but that the subs are the finishers. And that when they come on, they think and they act like finishers. and so there was a kind of a logical um ramping up of where we're at so we got the machinery going we got the movements going um wasn't still wasn't great but it's you're beginning to recognize arsenal moving it around nonny was having you you could debate how good a game nonny was having but he was definitely getting at them he was definitely getting interesting into interesting spots i think he was actually pretty good you still get into the how good is the end product but we had ways and avenues trossard was drifting in centrally but we didn't really have the left hand side really ticking yet spoiler alert we fix that before the end of the game we fixed the right hand side you might say with a different look when max damon comes on but the right hand side's doing stuff and it's got something going on and odegaard's there and we make some changes on that side so i definitely think we move to a higher gear of of controlling and passing and moving still not perfect but it's better and to your point there's a lot to talk about this game is not a perfect game by any means but you can see the phases in which this team starts to feel more comfortable in possession and out of possession and there's a platform to build on for the the denouement of how the game goes.

34:36If you're asking me what I connect to in a game, of course it's, we didn't have the incisive high-tempo ball progression that creates chances. If you ask Mikel Arteta, he told you, identity. I'm sure he's thrilled that we looked like we controlled a football match again. I'm sure, you know, Arsene Wenger used to say, you go up by the stairs and down by the elevator. This is a stair. Back up. Right? Control a game. Have the ball. Don't get run through. Declan Rice, right? One possession, 13 times against Sporting. The most by an Arsenal midfielder in a UCL knockout stage since Mikel Arteta versus Bayern Munich in 2013 per Opta.

35:1913 times, right? Back to your identity. One step up the stairs, back. Clive, I do want to get to the subs, the goal that won it, the impact of this. And then I do want to look ahead to Bournemouth. but Paul gave us a lot of good meat on the bone there about the midfield dynamic. And we're spending some time on the midfield because it's important. And because let's face it, if rumors are to be believed, Eza might be close. And I think Zubomendy and Rice's place in midfield is probably just part of plan A. So there is going to be some focus now on how Mikel Arteta puts all the pieces together. Maybe if you think that Leo is in a bit of a valley of form, Eza might be considered there that we haven't seen much of it.

35:57So the midfield is going to be in focus as we start to think about the crunch fixtures ahead. Do you want to add anything to Paul's analysis of the midfield there?

36:07Elliot:Or the overall? Yeah. I'm trying to tippy-toe around this a little bit, right? Don't tippy-toe around it. Trust the audience. They love you. Just say what's on your mind, mate. Because I do think it was a specific game. So it wasn't about judging anybody. There are tendencies our players have. And some are more ball-dominant than others. but don't perceive that ball dominance for good play. It's just play to control the game. So if Odegaard is very ball dominant, he lends you the ball. He lends you the ball to get it back. And then he circulates the ball. And he's really, really good at that. And some people say, well, he should play deeper.

36:50Elliot:Well, when you play deeper, you've got to be able to defend. And the defensive side isn't there. Hence why Zoumendi plays, who can do some of the circulation. He's not quite as ball dominant as Odegaard, but defensively he's a lot better so hence I'm a bit more of a fan of that pivot there but I do see there'll be certain games and certain times in games when you need to have only one defensive player because you're one goal now you need a win so you take one of those players out obviously so you keep the one who can do the biggest spaces and you overload him on defensive duties and you adding an extra forward and you can see that happening later in the season so that doesn't mean he doesn't doesn't what the balance isn't right i think for me what stood out for me is not just a little bit redundancy between supermendy and odegaard but a little bit with trossar which i hadn't really noticed as much you know so what you end up getting you end up getting maybe two i'm not saying everyone's got to be physical but two less physical players maybe not retaining the ball very well on the pitch in duels but then you i sort of missed one more player of stature of you know and and i think martin nearly showed that i'm not saying he's tall but i'm just saying physically he could get away from people you know and i thought we needed that extra player but at the first phase of the game we didn't we needed control and we more or less had it you know not perfect because we still conceded too many big shots for me but we more or less had it in the end I stopped trying to create a perfect midfield I do think though when you're thinking about it you've got to think about a center forward and what works best with him and that's that's the question you should be asking someone's got to get close to him yeah and and the benefit of Kai being in there by the way it's not Jokras's goal but when Jokras moves out of the way two defenders go with him and suddenly there's an enormous space for Kai to run into and he takes that opportunity.

38:48Elliot:With most tactics, you have to decide who you're going to invest in. So everyone's focused on midfield three. I'm looking at, I'm looking at, when I'm sitting there on my set, I'm in the ground, I want to see a goal. Yeah. So I'm looking at how can we score? What's the best threat do we have? Where's our threat coming from? In this game, Nonny was good for me and he was absolutely critical. You know why? Because he offered threat. He offered that and we went to him a lot. Trust I didn't, he had one cross which is really good but he's not threatening he's a bit more of a pocket picker you know and um and so if you're not getting threat for your midfield three and you're not connected to your center forward you're not threatening and so for me as we go forward i want to see the threat level go up slightly some that's in your behaviors and some of that is in your proximity to your center forward so you have to make a choice you know what type of third midfielder second striker do i want and does it really matter do i start in one end of another but i think that's what you need to think about and it's not even about is the center forward good enough because if we change it to kai at center forward it'd be the same questions i'll be asking how do we support that player you can't leave them alone because you won't threaten the team enough they'll just put two defenders on him one in front one behind and just bully them out to the sides so we have to have players close to that player.

40:14Elliot:That for me is the balance change. It's always been how we do the 9 and 10. What does that player look like? What role are we giving them? How do we use the wide left? At the moment, that's quite a collective position. But we're coming to the point where I think we need to make a decision on that side of the pitch. As soon as you make a decision, the other player on the bench looks better. So that's why I am a bit earlier. I think think about the forward role, than about the midfield balance. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's what you and Paul have said is really interesting. And it's such an important discussion because it is probably that one little piece of what we do that can determine if we get all the way to the goals that we have for us for the last little bit of this season.

40:56And I think this is sort of an inscrutable quote from Mikel, but I think it's an important one. So I'm going to put it out there and we can parse it or not parse it. But I think it's worth listening to because he was asked if we can use this as a template for the rest of the season. Quote, in a lot of things, yes. And especially in the things that depend on us, and it's nothing to do with quality or execution. Those are the things that have brought us here. The rest we have it. It will be moments. It is better or not that efficient, but those ones, if we maintain them, we have a great chance. Now I'm going to tell you what I think that means because it's just a tiny bit inscrutable.

41:36In a lot of things, yes. and in the things that depend on us, it's nothing to do with quality or execution. What I think he's saying is in our shape, in our structure, in our principles of play, this is the template. He's saying where it's not the things where quality or execution matters. It's our structure, it's our commitment, it's our principles of play. Then he's saying the rest we have at the moments. What he's saying is then to get where we want to go, there will have to be some moments of elite quality. And I'm really connecting to what he's saying. He's essentially saying, look, the way we control games, our principles of play, the areas of the pitch we want to play in and the way we want to restrict chances, this game was a good example of our identity.

42:15But those moments of excellence and execution still need to be there. And I think he's right. I think he's right. Now, will that happen when it's timber in there, when it's sack in there? Will that happen when EZA comes back? I mean, those are all questions that are player-ish, but tactically, I think that's where he's going with that. I want to talk about the subs, the impact of the subs, how subs have been a big part of the story of our season overall. a little bit more on the goal, and I do want to talk about Bournemouth. I will say, by the way, for those of you listening to this who are fans of other clubs, and I know there's so many of you doing that, and you think we're boring, well, you're welcome, because by winning last night, we have now guaranteed five places in the Champions League for the Premier League next season, and depending on what happens in the other European competitions, there could be seven Premier League teams in the Champions League next season.

42:58It's just sort of a reminder of the league we're trying to win and how different a league it is, how attritional and how important it is to just be able to run the course. And we are trying to run the course. And we are trying to run a course to support a five-year program in the Coaching for Life program. So I'm going to tell you something. Sean McFarlane, thank you for your matching donation. We're on to the next one. Philip Reeves and Sabina Reeves. Married couple, multi-generation gooner, Philip Reeves. And if I am allowed to say it, Sabina came over from the dark side, the other side in North London, to support Arsenal upon marriage.

43:34Don't do that to her. No, it's okay. Because she's in the family now. She married into it. She's now into it. She loves it with all her heart and soul. They listen to the pod and Sabina and her husband, Phillip, have offered to match 15 ,000 pounds for this next week. That would take us, if you are willing to be generous enough to support the fundraiser and use up all of their money, which we want to do, to nearly 150 ,000 pounds. Especially Sabina's. Yeah, we want to use up all Sabina's money. This is retribution. This is her payment to get into the club and wash off the stink of her former club.

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44:35okay we're back well subs have just been a big story this season and if you whether you love the players we signed last summer you don't love the players we signed last summer whether you think some of them are good or some of them I don't care what we do know is that we have used this squad you could argue we've had as much of an injury hit season this season as we did last season but this season we were built to weather the storm and as a result subs have been a big part of our season if you're going to build a bigger squad you're going to rely on the whole team and Mikel loves using the term finishers some people laughed at him why can't we just call him subs what do we do when we got to call him finishers well he wants the whole group to feel included and it turns out Mikel's smarter than the idiots because finishers have been a big part of our story they were again and Gabriel Martinelli he did the thing that maybe we were guilty of not doing which is all right I'm going to beat a man and then when I beat a man I'm not going to lay it off to Zubimendi I'm going to play a ball that rewards a run Kai makes the run and it's such a lovely little bit of movement as we discussed.

45:30Jokeres moves out of the way. Two center backs go with him. Because Kai's in that zone, there's a lane for him to come to. Martinelli's drive pulls another midfielder, the guy who should have been marking Kai, towards him. And then Kai executes brilliantly. But you want to talk about, you could talk about the goal if you want, but really just more using the subs, their impact. I know you thought Max was terrible, awful, horrible last night. And I'm sure you want to go into that. But Dowman getting on. He now surpassed Laminia Mall is the youngest player to ever feature in the knockout round of the Champions League.

46:02And this is interesting. I read this somewhere. Max Dowman now has around 15 years to play one more knockout game in the Champions League to match Bruno Fernandes' total of appearances in the knockout rounds of the Champions League. If he plays in the home leg, he will surpass Bruno Fernandes there. So come on, Paul. What did the finishers do for this game? Yeah. Yeah, look, that's the other part of the identity, and you can't get away from it. Not that, oh, I'm going to win it through my subs, my finishers, that the finishers see themselves as finishers, and you can't see anything. Like, not every game, not every minute Martinelli has played has been played with such clarity, such intent as this particular moment.

46:52but like the referees board or the the fourth officials board has just gone up with the generous contribution of two minutes for added time despite the fact that uh odegaard has been down that trossard has been injured and limped off and that like all normal decorum says four minutes is your your starting minimum no this referee decides having given zero minutes at halftime the what What everybody wants to do is get out of here without any goals and puts up a board for two minutes, at which point you look like you want to say something there, Elliot. I was just going to say, I mean, maybe the referee is just buying into the narrative that we're boring and he was bored and he didn't want to go home.

47:35I don't know. Doesn't he know how much time we waste on every particular moment and that they should be made up towards you? Anyway, so the board goes up. Martinelli says, screw that. And I don't think you give him enough credit. I don't think anybody's given Martinelli enough credit on this you can see the intent he just tears past two players you mentioned that there's been a lot of credit given to Yacoresh for taking two center backs and for tying up the middle but it's all Martinelli and I'm not knocking Yacoresh he certainly pins his man but the other center back it's not he's not tied up with Yacoresh have a look at it he jumps to Martinelli Martinelli tears it's like a guy who tears into your bedroom at three in the morning he tears into that area of the pitch where there is nobody at that particular moment and they all jump to him Havertz's guy why is Havertz on a on his own you mention it but like Havertz's guy just says oh screw Havertz there's Martinelli running through our middle and nobody gets to him the other center back says oh Jesus Christ Martinelli's torn into the middle whereas Martinelli says oh look there's Havertz all on his own it was almost like a drawn-up play you could persuade me they said look for this look for Havertz um making that run in behind you know when they send a yeah got Mikel with all that intensity giving them instructions on the sidelines before they come on or his staff or his staff you could persuade me this was a drawn-up play and if it wasn't it was pure brilliance for Martinelli not to think oh I'm gonna keep running and get a shot off he saw the opportunity it's a perfect ball it's a perfect cushioned trap by Havertz it's absolutely a thing of beautiful and Havertz doing big man stuff at the end of a game Mikel has this thing basics I can't actually remember at any point what at this what the ASICS is but the B is both boxes and it's Davar Dryadon one end and it's Kai Havertz and Martinelli up the other end, both boxes.

49:43And that's why we won this game. Yeah, yeah. Clive, your thoughts on the subs, the goal, both boxes?

49:49Elliot:Yeah, I think last night you were speaking about we want to see our passing improve. And I actually felt the difference in this game was we introduced a couple of players that wanted to carry the ball. And I think it was carrying, well, and Max as well, tried to carry. And I think the carrying disrupted them more than our passing, which I think lacked a bit of threat. and but I can understand why we didn't have want to carry so much because we didn't want to create transitions which obviously the manager didn't want to see happen so I'm less inclined to be you know not that I'm too heavy on the players anyway but I'm less inclined to not be on the players on this one I think it was a plan and I think it worked perfectly you know and by because you can see the difference in body language in Martin Elian Havertz and Max I don't think it can change anyway but basically get your man it was literally get on get at your man you know make runs run you know and they couldn't handle it they couldn't handle it from a team that was quite static passing and moving and clipping into the box we went to a team that was carrying and running past people running across people and running have us if you look at it if i watched it this morning he comes on he makes a run into the centre, makes a run to come deep, then makes a run to a corner flag on a sleeper clip pass that went out.

51:10Elliot:And they're thinking, crikey, that's another forward that's come on. But you've got Marty's other guy as well. So now he's finding space down the sides and he's really mobile and moving around. I think that to me, because their body language was so different to the players that came off, I think that's pure instruction. That's pure game plan. That's pure, this is what we're going to do in the last quarter of the game. and we can say it worked because we got the goal and aptly described by paul the first touch was beautiful laying it onto his strong foot so he's just a side foot these details matter if you look at the conviction of how he made sure of that chance and just wind back to wembley a very similar chance maybe slightly more to the right as you look at the goal i want you to look at the conviction or the latter conviction he showed at that moment and how a lesson can be learned and in the conviction he showed on it he was scoring that goal and look how he punched it in past the keeper that's the details that's what really matters if he does that when maybe that day's different we're not talking about the goalkeeper but rather than in football he's always another game he's always another chance and he took his and everything about him he was really good on the day and he was massively important to our win yeah and clive just quickly on on those two players martinelli and kai one of the things i really liked about this with martinelli and he did it twice in the game he cut in on his right and he shot he just didn't get the purchase on it then he cut in on his right here beat a man and played the pass i don't know this player yeah i mean but that's that's what we want from him right i mean decisive look at this layer did you see that coming when he came on no i mean to be fair in the champions league in his appearances has been more of who he is.

52:55But I think when I close my eyes and I picture Martinelli in the league, I picture a lot of the ball comes to him and stops. He head fakes and head fakes and head fakes and head fakes and head fakes and then either goes back to the fullback or drives to the byline and the opportunity is lost. And when I think of him at his best, I think of instant decisions, instant action, use that explosive athletic burst away, whether it's to the byline or to the inside. But when he cuts to the inside and gets it on his right, I think he does so many good things. And we saw that twice in this game, one that didn't come off for a goal, one that did.

53:28So do you think maybe it's just good film to have on tape for Mikel to say, hey, let's see that. Let's see that decisiveness, that drive with your right foot, you know?

53:37Elliot:I think after six years and two contracts, I think he's a known quantity to the club. I think just about being consistent. I think about being consistent. When he came inside and he had the shot, He'd be unlucky, actually, because he kicked the ground a little bit. So he took a bit of turf. But again, his intention was really strong, wasn't it? I agree. To get that shot off. And so this sort of stuff you're looking at when you're watching a player. The thing with Martin Elliott is I also watched him at Southampton. I'm thinking, and I watched him play that game. And trust me, I wasn't having good thoughts.

54:11Elliot:And so it's very difficult with football because I watched him at Wembley. it wasn't great it wasn't great in this game completely different levels of commitment to the moment was just so different well this is an interesting thing because Billy Carpenter posted this out before the game actually Kai Havertz has one start at centre forward this season he obviously didn't play centre forward in this game although he finishes his chance from the centre forward position so to speak but it is really what Clive was talking about earlier the association between Yorkress and Kai being close enough that their movement can confuse the defence and create openings for each other to feed off each other's movement in those areas.

54:51But Paul, I think Mikel is starting to arrive at a moment here where Kai Havertz is getting fit and he's available. And the best arsenal I can picture is when I close my eyes and picture the winter and spring of 2024 when Kai was playing center forward. But a lot of people will rightly point out that's two years ago now. So does Mikel have an interesting choice there about whether it's time to give Kai that next start at center forward, potentially as early as this weekend, and build off that performance. Is that something that it's time to unleash? Well, it just feels like this whole season is going to go like this where he's got a few interesting choices to make.

55:37You know, Odegaard versus Havertz. Versus Eze, if he's fit. Yeah. He didn't really have a, he hasn't yet found a perfect formula. And like Havertz is approaching fitness, but he came on as a sub, a finisher. And there's a really good chance we're just going to have to live with, what I'd love to live with is the players coming back and staying fit. And then we see what percolates out of that because you want a player between the lines too. Like the success here was Havertz as the second forward. and also the success was finishers and like we may just have to for this season have a view of it that it's back to clive's point stop thinking about starting 11s your first 11 etc it's going to be different players for different games different situations different phases of games and we won't fully love it because we won't be able to picture 11 and 11 that can rinse any other team in possession passing it around with the balance i'm not sure we're going to have a balanced 11 this season at any point what we're going to have is a one-two punch where the subs the finishers come on and they've got something like 38 goal contributions at this stage um 24 goals 14 assists or maybe it's the other way around but anyway there's a lot of them and and it's a formula that it works and we've got good players who know their role with intent so i feel you i don't think we're going to move away from jacoresh in any substantive fashion or even a bit i think we're going to see a lot of jacoresh starting a lot of havertz as either the finisher or as the 10 floating around jacoresh and every day every game is going to be different is what i think is going to happen.

57:37Yeah. I want to shift attention before we end this to...

57:42Elliot:He wasn't happy that, Paul. He wants to drop our top scorer. Doesn't like that. He's very narrative-driven, isn't he? Don't you find that sometimes, Clive? To be fair, you know what Clive said? He wants to drop our top scorer. You know, there are a lot of people that are going to say, how can you want to take Jokras out of the lineup with the goals he scored? And there are a lot of people that are going to say, there are just a lot of days when you can't see the player and you can't see his contribution. And he's going to divide opinion. Like, let's not pretend. Sometimes I think people want to pretend reality isn't what it is.

58:13Let's be realistic. This is not a straightforwardly excellent Victor Jokeres season. If anyone is saying that, in my opinion, they are not honestly assessing it. He has given us a really good goal return, I think. But I also think it is fair to observe that there have been a lot of periods of the season where his performances have fallen short of what we would have hoped for, and games where he is simply unable to influence them at all. And those have often been the higher level games, by the way. And he wasn't a huge influence in this game. And you can point to whether you want to blame that on service of the player.

58:47I mean, he's back at sporting. He would have been obviously thrilled to make more of an impact there. I think he's very classy in how he said goodbye to the fans, by the way. But it just is the case, Clive, that I think people want to flatten reality. They want reality to be simple. This player scored these goals, so they're good. Or this player did this, so they're bad. And reality is not that. Odegaard is not the villain of the piece because he passed backwards a few times. Jokras is not the hero of the season because of his goal return. These players have had mixed performances and it is important to recognize the fullness, the subtlety, the overall reality of their contribution.

59:19And at this point, I think it is entirely fair if someone says, I thank Jokras for his goal return. I think we can get more from the better player who is Kai Havertz. And I'm going to say it so I can own it. I believe Kai Havertz is the better player. that is my belief whether he is fit and ready to step up to that role we don't know but for me if i'm picking a lineup for bournemouth i'm picking kai havertz up front because i think kai havertz is the better footballer and the footballer who is more likely to win us things and if you're listening to saying i'm dead wrong that's the beauty of football it's about opinions but the flattening of football opinions into players either having to be good or bad based on oh by the way the last thing they did that i don't care for that and i i don't think that's of any value to us.

1:00:04So for me, Clive, I'll nail my colors to the mask. That's where I am with this.

1:00:07Elliot:Yeah, well, I don't, I'm not flattening things. I'm not saying you are. I'm saying that people will say, they will demand. I did a big section on nine and 10 and how that balance needs to work. And so, yeah, that's it. Guys, guys, guys, don't you see what's going on? You guys love each other. Well, that is true, of course. But the thing is, it's the same thing, right? I watched Martin Elliott, at Southampton. And I watched him last night. Different player. Completely different player. And so, it's not about nailing colours to the mask because Kai Havertz is a fantastic footballer, one of our top paid players and has been at the club for three years.

1:00:50Elliot:It's not about comparing and contrasting. Do you think he's a better player than Victor Jokeres? I think he's a better footballer than Victor Jokeres. He's not a better goal scorer than Victor Jokeres. Simple as that. he's not he's scored 120 goals in the last two years now you might not be and that's the truth and so it's a different role it's a profile of a true center forward versus someone who's more of a false nine second striker type who can play in midfield if we go into a game against man city now and we want to have lots of active players with lots of high touch players to control the ball and really make sure we are comfortable on the ball, we don't have passengers on the day, then you know what?

1:01:32Elliot:Kai might be the best choice for centre forward. And I might fancy Nese next to him. To make sure you have that level of impact. And I might fancy Maleweki on the left to stretch out their fullbacks. Every game is different. You haven't got to nail your colours to the miles because as soon as you do, they have a bad game. And your colours are not going to look right. You know? And that's the truth. But it is, isn't it, Elliot? It is. If there are certain games when we need to have more impact on the last line, like the Carling Cup final, Carabao Cup final, we didn't have enough impact on the last line.

1:02:07Elliot:And guess who played up front? It was them two again. And I'm thinking, that's not working anymore. You know, how about Senyokovic? It's not working. But what didn't work was the configuration that day, how we didn't have enough people ahead of the ball to really impact the second ball, for example, so we couldn't continually get coming back to us. Every single game is different tactically, it really is. On this day, for example, I think a big part of our game plan was our fullbacks and the positions they took up, which allowed us to impact their backline continuously through the end of the game.

1:02:41Elliot:I actually thought the last quarter of the game, White and Califuri were absolutely dead on their feet. But look at the positions that they took up. they kept pushing on and kept pushing on and kept pushing on and that allows distraction for other people to allow a kai herberts to drift in unannounced and tap it in it's never about one player it's always about the whole quilts of a team of course how it's constructed i wish we had those two fullbacks in that style against man city but we didn't we had players we had a playing in Cappy that was neutered by a yellow card that stayed too deep and had Ben White that had an okay game but wasn't really himself had to deal with their players and wasn't really pushing forward enough and so that game didn't work out as this game did and so I do think as I've been trying to say all year even though getting abuse for it it isn't about first 11.

1:03:40Elliot:Not that you noticed. isn't about it's about the right players for the right game plan for the right style it always is and if if that player is not required then he's not required and the good thing about this squad and she's really coming out really this season Kai Havertz is Germany's forward although he's not playing for for Germany neither by the way he's a he's a world star won a Champions League and he accepts that bench position like no problem comes on and performs because he knows his role. So if he can accept it, I think we can accept it and hope the right moment for him is coming. Because I like him at centre forward, but we haven't seen it for a long time.

1:04:21Elliot:I can't wait to see Eze and Kai together. Split forwards, one on the right to the left and one, you know what I'm saying, a righty on the left and a lefty on the right. A twin fours like we used at Marino and Eze early part of the season, which I really enjoyed. I'm looking forward to see that, you know, if we get a chance. I think it could be our best combination. I haven't seen it yet. I'm not nailing my colors to that mask. I've always fancied that from the start of the season. Yeah, and so we're clear when I say nailing my colors to the mask, I don't mean one player's shit, one player's good because that's the opposite of what I'm saying, right?

1:04:53What I'm saying is that we have a tendency, I think in the way we discuss football lately, first of all, the last thing you saw is the true thing, right? So if someone scores a goal, it's C, ha ha, they're great. If they didn't score a goal, we got to get this donkey out of our club. and like that gets very tedious. You get pulled from pillar to post on different opinions constantly. The other thing that I think is just the need for a player to be great or terrible. I think Victor Jokras has been an important contributor this season, obviously. I do think that Kai Havertz has more to offer us at the center forward position.

1:05:25And for people who say, well, we need the running, I would point you to the running that Kai Havertz did for this goal. I would point you to the running that he did for the chance he didn't take against City. But it's, you know, if we're going to talk about running. And I point you to the running he did, I think it was from an Eza pass to win a penalty that he should have been given that wasn't given, right?

1:05:42Elliot:And the running he did at Southampton to lay on Jokovic's goal down to third space, down to third. Yeah, that's a good point. He made the run into the half space channel between fullback and center back and lays it on. But my point in saying that I think he's better. But isn't he just free to do the running in this game because he's not the striker? I mean, he runs. Paul, I think that was always the plan for Kai when he was signed. Mikel Arteta said he signed Kai Havertz to be in midfield. And that running, I absolutely agree with you. That was always the plan. A center forward to drag someone away, Kai Havertz to run in the space.

1:06:14So I think that both can work. But I do think we are approaching a moment where Mikel, look, and Clive, we joked about this the other day. First 11s in August don't matter. But if we're going to face Barcelona in the Champions League, or if we're going to go to the Etihad with a title feeling like it's in our hands, he's going to have to start to make some hard choices. Is it as a Odegaard? Is it Kai or is it Jokras? Is it Kai and Jokras instead of as a Odegaard? Say we're playing Barcelona at Nou Camp, right?

1:06:40Elliot:And Barcelona got a higher line than my hairline, right? So where would, what forward, what forward, what do you think we're going to do in that game? We might play them both. Can I tell you what I would do? And spin in behind. I wouldn't play Victor Jokras. I'd play Kai Havertz and I'd play Martinelli. And I'd try to upset him through. I'd take the more intelligent technical footballer to drop in with his back to goal and play in the sprinter. You can choose, though, can't you? You can choose. That's what you'd choose. But you can see what the options potentially are. And that's it. It's just options.

1:07:09Elliot:Of course. And we have them. We're not playing midfield about front end. And then there's the last 20 minutes. For people who say, by the way, that this podcast is an agree fest where we just agree. Someone got to me the other day. They said, you always back down on your opinion. Your opinions are bad, but don't back down. So I had to sit with that for a minute. I was like, wait a minute. My opinions are bad, but don't back down. But you know what? We've just had a lovely little debate about how you think about this. When it comes to opinions on players, you just have to ride with your own opinion if you normally think.

1:07:44Elliot:And try to contextualize it and try and say by which way you're looking at it. A lot of my own opinions come from the construct of the team and how I can maximize each and every player. And if a player plays really well, but five other players don't, I won't be happy with that because I'll be thinking well we haven't won the game I won't be happy with that you know so it is about how the team looks and there are days when the team has looked magnificently good there are days like at Wembley where we didn't look right the same good players by the way one player off of our first eleven more or less that was fit and available the same good players just didn't look right and this is it I think this winner manager deserved credit yesterday he made decisions on our game plan that was a little bit boring for the first half and grew into the game, made changes, and won the game.

1:08:34Elliot:Kept his zero away in Europe. Elliot, we were there in Porto. Similar boring, wouldn't play the ball over the top, blah, blah, blah. Got excited towards the end of the wrong part of the pitch. Conceited a shot, top corner. That was, what, a year, two years ago? He's learning, isn't he? He's learning, and that's all you can say for now. Paul, I shut you out of this section pretty badly, so go ahead, I'm sorry. No, look, you absolutely have a point in terms of is Kai Havertz growing to a point where you're super tempted to want to start him as striker, and it's going to be horses for courses. We don't know how fit he is.

1:09:17We can all see that Jankarash is a reference point for this team. We can see and picture games in which Havertz being the supporting striker, not the striker, like we saw in this game, is going to be good for business. And he can make that run because he doesn't have two center backs on him, which is what would have happened if he were the starting striker or the ending striker in this game. I mean, he brought Havertz on, but he didn't take Jarkhresh off because he wants a reference and he wants Havertz to be able to slip his man, slip in behind and go unnoticed. Havertz, unnoticed in their box, is not going to happen when he's a striker.

1:09:54But there will be other games where you start him as a striker and maybe it's at the Bernabeu and maybe you want him peeling off and making runs and tearing around the back line or maybe you want Yacoresh as the counter attacker. Like there are many different ways to play and like I lean, what I liked about this game is less about personnel. It's about the big moments and the guys being decisive and the finishers and the structure and like Clive mentioned Saliba pulling the strings in the, in our instant reaction after the game. And I was surprised at him picking him for the stock rise. But he's absolutely right because there are dynamics in a game that were working.

1:10:37And yes, Saliba was pulling the strings. And Clive also has just mentioned the full backs and them taking up positions. And if you look at the goal, Ben White has drifted into the right eight spot. Calafiore is the left eight. It is absolutely classic. uh jogo de position or however we're going to pronounce it today we'll ask we'll ask phil uh tim when he's back on yeah and it's like what's what's the who's the star of that moment it's martinelli it's havertz it's the structure and the way of playing and and the the guys trusting the system and playing into it and maduecki is wide right martinelli is wide left gabby picks up the ball deep and for the second time punches the ball through to a dangerous spot you don't realize how dangerous it's going to be but gabby punching that ball to rice who feeds it to martinelli quickly is crucial for that uh we've upped the tempo they've all seen the two minute board at least in my version of it they've upped the tempo for the second time gabby is the one who punches it through to Zubimendi for the non-goal goal.

1:11:45And so you got Saliba pulling the strings. So it is a collective. And if any part of that chain doesn't happen, if the team doesn't know it's go time and hit the marks and punch it and Martinelli and then Havertz and Havertz the big moment in the game, and it's the team feeling it. And so you got to give this team what it needs at different times in different parts of the game. That goal probably doesn't happen in the first half, but it does happen then. And Havertz having that freedom, making those runs as the second striker is probably the right move for that phase of the game.

1:12:23Elliot:Clive, you want to add to that? Not really. It's just a matter of, because the second striker thing, it works some days and it doesn't on others. And that's the key. The key, the massive thing is to have the options. You know, that's what, you know maybe at Southampton we didn't have quite enough options shall we say they're in the right level of commitment because look at White's commitment versus Southampton versus sporting yeah I mean look at our back seven against Southampton too right that's the basis you're building it off exactly Ben White's head still on the plane unfortunately managers tell you managers tell you what's important to them with lineups right we can all be frustrated we went out of the FA Cup God knows I am the manager told you where his priorities were and we could have gotten away with it we didn't you know he took big gabby off and he played two days later so he wasn't taking no risk with him was he in that competition he took odegaard off for an hour guess what he started this game and was the most busiest player in the first half of the game right so he he ran out of puff so he if he'd have played the whole game southampton he wouldn't have played half the game in this game because he's not ready yet to do that so he prioritized certain players you know and you know he was obviously going to start Jochores in Lisbon so he didn't start him against Southampton right and so he came on and looked fresh got his goal whilst he didn't win the game in this game you sometimes think if you're not going to pass forward why don't you have another midfielder up there you know we're not going to give the centre forward the ball we might as well play Kai up there actually Kai ends up being a match winner we can't keep rolling him out by the way he played two half games in the international break then plays in Southampton So now we're looking at him to make sure he's protected for the games going forward.

1:14:05Elliot:There's always a plan. It doesn't always work. But I've learned not to dismiss the two-striker thing, not dismiss the Odegaard thing, not dismiss the Eze Havertz thing, Eze Yokoz, because I think we're going to need all of them. You know what I mean? I generally think we're going to need all of them. Yep, and this win puts us in a position where if Mikel says, you know what? I'm not going to play Timber midweek before the Yeti had. I'm not going to play Saka midweek before the Yeti had. He can have the confidence to go do that again, I think, and roll those dice where I don't think a draw would have necessarily left him feeling that way.

1:14:44Not much to say on the max performance other than to say he came in, he played, he won some fouls. I think Maxi Araujo did an amazing job, by the way, utilizing his, he rolled doubles on his 20-sided dies, and he won the immunity from yellow cards spell. And because he won that, he utilized it really well with his eight fouls and no yellow cards. Max Dowman won some fouls. He got us up pitch, won some very dangerous free kicks. We did put in some good corners and free kicks, by the way. Nani at the bar, and Jokras had, I think, from a free kick, basically a point-blank header, and Diamande kind of deflected it away.

1:15:20so nice to see some good corners and free kick routines again and uh certainly something that we can look for the return like but before we get out of here we do have to at least touch on the Bournemouth game and first of all the fact that we play Tuesday is is helpful we might have Saka back don't know might have Timber back don't know I suspect they will be don't know there's rumors that Ezza could be pretty close so Mikkel will have an interesting set of decisions Paul I'm glad it's at home I'm glad we played before City we can put the pressure on them playing at Chelsea but we have to do our job and the difference between cup football and league football of course is a draw isn't good enough so playing to keep it tight and trying to win it late while I would take that of course probably not the tactic you want to employ in a game where you absolutely must have three points so any thoughts on how you'd set it up and maybe the drift the draft the drift of this win pushing us forward against Bournemouth.

1:16:20Yeah, it's going to be huge for just removing the concerns, the doubt, the noise. I mean, Mikel talked a lot about the noise. It's a thing, right? He didn't poo-poo it. He didn't hand-wave it. He clearly said it was critical that the team reminded themselves who they are. He talked about people looking around at other people or responding themselves. so he's not he's absolutely saying this was a critical juncture and a critical win so now we take that and we go on to Bournemouth and um for me what I'm hoping I'm going to see is I want to continue to see Califiori uh playing from left wing so that we have a left hand side so it's not all on the right hand side because uh you know we haven't seen Saka and it seemed it would seem a bit brave to have him start in this game, let alone will he be on the bench.

1:17:22So we need stuff from the left-hand side as well as the right-hand side. So the big one for me is going to be, do we continue to see Calafiore in these games? Because I think we'll grow into using him, and he gives this team the dynamism, the excitement, the excitement factor that you're looking for. And then that's the big move for me. Around that, you can start to plan out the other players, you know, bounce that out on the other side. If you have Timber back, could well be white again, obviously. So it might be one of those where he doesn't have a lot of choices, really, depending on who's fully fit and who's back.

1:18:05Seeing more of Odegaard, feeling more comfortable. I mean, he looks sprightly. He looked on his toes. him and Zubimendi and Jockerash, etc., may have not found their rhythm yet. But I hope to see Odegaard start and Calafiore. And then you have the two players who can stir both sides of the midfield with their movement and spark other players into their movements. So that's what I'm hoping to see. Interesting. Well, Bournemouth are unbeaten in 11 in the league. that's nothing to shake your head at. But what's interesting is seven of those are draws. The last league loss they had was at home to Arsenal.

1:18:49So what do you think, Clive? What do you make of Paul's loss?

1:18:53Elliot:I think, well, why do I think this even? I actually think if I'm playing this game where I need to have an offensive direction, I need to have strong speed in the wide areas, particularly to start the game. So I would start with Martin Ely in this game and I would start with one of Sakharov and Madueke on the other side just to make sure that we're going wide to really, and they know where we're going. I don't care. But this is probably a game where I would go for the two strikers if you said it with me earlier in this game because I think it's important but it wouldn't bother me if we go three midfielders and do it that way as well and choose whichever striker.

1:19:33Elliot:It doesn't worry me. As long as we play to the plan, you know I think Calafioi's had a lot of minutes worried about him so if you think about it we've got four players that could easily be in a start 11 out Eze, Saka, Timba and Incapi they're big players you know big minutes you know really competitive animals you know and and they really do dictate a lot of what we've done this year really been successes all in my opinion anyway so to win in sporting without those four it's really good right so So now the manager said that Saka and Timber are in contention. That's pretty big for him to say those words, which might think they're back.

1:20:14Elliot:I think they're back for this game, and I think they'll be needed. So whether they start off, it doesn't really matter. This is where we're taking smarter decisions about health. The things that always struck with me, I think he recognized last year against PSG, we were not in condition. I think if we ever get to a semi-final again in a Champions League, we're going to be fit. fit and ready to play because you need to be at that level. You can't be carrying people with knocks in the hamstrings and things like that. So it's a risk to going away to Sporting without those maybe sack them. Last year, maybe we'd have played him.

1:20:50Elliot:This year, we haven't because the league game is really important at the weekend. So I think that's what we'll do. Speed in wide areas, maybe go for the split striker thing again and then normal midfield and go from there. Yeah. Yeah, well, Bournemouth defensively have not been great this season on XG. They're, I believe, 15th in that range. Their away form has also not been great in the league. So, you know, both things that could help us. But as I said, 11 games unbeaten, granted, seven of those are draws. I do think that this win in midweek will clarify some things for McKelvey. Not to say that he can take the return leg lightly, but I think he can really be setting things up for Bournemouth and City.

1:21:36And I do think that this game has so much riding on it, not just because obviously we need to win so we can win the league, but also I think the advantage of playing first and putting that pressure on City going to Chelsea is important. And we want to keep that pressure on. Yeah. Yeah. And, oh, by the way, like, it is winning time, which means it's time for some players to step up. You know, I think Bikata Sak has had some time off. If he's fit and ready and rested, I think we could start to see the best of him. He's played so much football for so long. Now he's had his rest. If I think about the best football we played over the last few years, it was after that Dubai trip.

1:22:12There really is no Dubai trip in a season, but this has been an extended break for a couple of players, a break that they probably desperately needed, and it's a chance to see if that can help. So I'm excited for this game. You know, obviously, the league just feels nervy, and that nervousness permeates everything. You feel it. But maybe this win will help the players feel excited about what they can go and do. And I do think if we can get a win here and we can get through to the Champions League semifinal before we go to the Etihad, we will go there filled with a confidence and a pride of where we are in the position we're in that would not have felt like where we were headed after the cup exits.

1:22:50So really, really important to turn the wheel and get us pointed in that direction. I think we can leave it there. I think that's enough for now. We will have a really cool pod tomorrow where we analyze has Arsenal's form been bad like people are saying or has it not been bad and people are just letting the nerves get to them I'm going to really interrogate that over on Patreon Saliba50 is a quote if you want it for a couple of quid half off for a month see what you think we'll have Friday night Clive on Friday which will be super fun and then we'll have an instant reaction on Saturday and on and on we go I do want to thank Sabina and Phillip Reeves for their matching donation 15 ,000 pounds extraordinary please give and support what they're doing.

1:23:30Justgiving.com forward slash page forward slash ABP. Link is in the show notes. Paul, thank you. Woo-hoo! Clive, thank you. Thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed this. And if you didn't, you'll enjoy the next one. But I'm sure you did. It felt like a good one, was it? I don't know. There's always more games, which means there's always more pods. And we love you. We love you so much. This time of the year, let me tell you something. This time of the year, we really, really, really see how special a community this is. So thank you. We love you. And we will talk to you after Arsenal 10. One, two, three.