Preseason Derby Loss Raises Familiar Questions

34:40Now, the way this works is the release clause is about to expire. But we never had any intention of going to the full release clause. So I don't think this has changed anything. It is still a negotiation around, hey, the player would like to come. Here's our valuation. Can we find a middle ground? Now, their manager has talked about their short numbers. He doesn't want to be left short at the last minute. I don't see how they can let this player go late in August if they haven't lined up any kind of way to replace. You know, they've just won the FA Cup. They're going to be in Europe, not the European competition they hoped for because they got screwed, but that's beside the point.

35:15They can't afford to be short of numbers. So this is going to be a tricky negotiation in my mind. But I think this player is important. not just because I think he can play off the left, but because I saw something yesterday that I think we've seen, which is Declan Rice is one of the best players in world football. But there are games where that left eight role is not a clean, clean fit. And it was a weird game, by the way. This is a reminder that fitness matters. Have you ever seen Declan Rice have a game where he had one ball recovery, no interceptions, where he was zero of two on tackles? That's not Declan Rice.

35:49And he's not moving like Declan Rice yet. and he didn't do the spring, I mean, the early summer training camp in Spain, so he might be a little bit behind. But I do think that we need an operator in those pockets of space. So it's not just all, what's Martin Odegaard doing for us? Because I think that is an area of need. So how do you analyze the current state of play with Eberach Eze?

36:10Elliot:Yeah, so last 10 minutes that game, you'd probably want Eze standing where Declan Rice was, or you would, right? But I wouldn't. Well, you know, I want three Eberach Eze standing in the midfield and nobody doing anything else. Yeah, we're not, we are not. The deck and rice is very, very important to how we play and how we recover the ball. He's done a few good things, a few good things. So let's say we'll be playing one up in some regard, whether it be inside as a 10 or outside as a left 10. Do you know what I mean? Like the truss-style type, left-style wide player. It doesn't really matter. It's how you crowd the scene what really matters.

36:48Elliot:And he's really good in crowd scenes. he understands how to connect with people and move and create things through his movement so yeah I don't worry about our field per se I just want to see it out there, I think in this game a Marino would be better for this game state than Deca Rice would be if you want to win this game if you want to win the season, Deca Rice need the minutes, so he got the minutes, he didn't get the minutes in the last game, he got the minutes in this game, we're trying to prepare for a season not trying to win every single game if you want to stay true if you want to say truthful to what your plan was for the season to get minutes into players to allow them to be successful and effective come day one you stick to plan and marina got the minutes last game with zubomendi and this game it was nor garden rice got the majority of the minutes in the story right so as for ese just i just want another player looks after the ball earlier and makes us all excited you know that's it i i felt we had a technically low team and a technically tough environment for them.

37:51Elliot:And I want to fix that, I want that fixed. Because I think it's going to come back and haunt us. We're still overly reliant on Saka Odegaard. We're still overly reliant on that. We're overly reliant on the exit over the top in this game to Kai to get pieces to win that first ball. They did the same thing because no one wants to play down the middle on that pitch. It's a bad pitch. long ball game developed into second ball game bits and pieces can we get one-on-ones who can recover into zone 14 quickly enough to get tackles to stop shots coming in very basic game of football watch this all the time in non-league right so and so I know I know how this goes right so it's not it's not please do not get too upset about it you know in a normal Premier League environment this would be way different way different but we I do think I'll say it again and and it's something that really dawned on me in this preseason, actually, was other people in wide areas had as much technical ability as we did.

38:57Elliot:And that needs to change because we're also, we're elite, and we need to be able to look after Paul Betting anybody. And that's it. So we have to fix it. And it's the August, and I think we will. Yeah. Do you feel that when it doesn't work, all eyes, you know, I mentioned Martinelli, but it feels like Martin Odegaard comes under a lot of scrutiny. And I think he has so much responsibility for so much of what we do. I mean, he, the ball is at his feet a lot. He let us in shots. He let us in chances created. He had 11 ball recoveries, you know, that led us as well. Um, you know, he got into the box.

39:33He, he, he's a very busy and active player, whether, you know, he's getting the final thing exactly right, right now is another story. So he was part of the buildup, floated into the perfect space, and he just misconnected with the ball. You know, and people are going to look at the last thing he does. I think he is a phenomenal, phenomenal player. I still think he has more sort of box-to-box qualities than final third maestro qualities if you want to start to put people in the little boxes of what they do. but I do think with White on the pitch and Saka and Odegaard that does start to look a little bit more familiar to me as a trio and that seems to work really well do you have a sense of how Odegaard is performing?

40:28I think it's been a really good preseason for him but there still seems to be a groundswell of a little bit of frustration and I know everybody wants Ethan but Ethan didn't play in this game and I find that really, really interesting So what are your thoughts on how that position is developing? And I think the sort of slightly strange factor of Ethan not playing, although it could just be a fitness issue we're not aware of.

40:49Elliot:Yeah, if it's a fitness issue, then we don't know. But I will say I wanted Odegaard to stay on the pitch because I thought he was playing quite well. And, you know, you have to ask yourself a question. Back to my Zubimendi Norgard thing, was should the minutes have been shared. When he got 40 ,000 red shirts in the crowd, I think the manager thought, I've got to give him something. Do you know what I mean? And maybe Ethan suffered for that. But I'm guessing there, Elliot, he may have had a little to me and he said, you know what, stay off. I think, Odegaard, just go back to your base, where we were talking from.

41:26Elliot:He had a couple of shots in Liverpool game. I think he had a shot against Donnarumma, against PSG. We were trying to, at that point in time, we were worried about him. you know worried about his way he was in his health and fitness and weight and energy and bounce and all these things we were worried about we had those shots we we were shocked when he had those shots you know and um now he's banging in shots he's all over the ball he's trying to get tackles in he's really energetic when no one else is no one near the energy levels that he's at that means he's responding he's responding to a down season so for me i'm not looking at my new shot yet i'm looking at his attitude and desire to lead this team in the newcastle game first half we were it was very quiet even in the first half well you were there mate when he came on we owned the ball didn't we immediately we owned the ball they disappeared completely changed the game he just changed the game got on the ball it just ends up being on his own all the time gets it moving energy goes up he sets example leads a pressing tells people where to stand and newcastle just step back over this i mean the kid comes on with the incision that we all remember but it started from the moment he came on so this is ethan's development he's got as much ability in his feet but your ability to apply your talent to run a game of football is the next phase for him as an 18 year old and someone that's personality wise having a football personality to dominate you know so this is a big development for Ethan he's young and it's going to come but at the moment in time Odegaard's the man he wants to dominate games he wants to dominate possession now we can we can all argue has he got strong enough right foot does he overlap enough well I saw underlaps and overlaps in this game he's he's he's read the comments mate he's trying to do it you know so i'm not looking at him anymore because he's already he's all the feedback has gone in the coaching messages have gone in and now he's trying to apply it and when he gets sharper he will he had banging shot against newcastle i believe outside the area this is all good stuff the stuff we were seeing two years ago so i'm hopeful he's gonna have a good year this may be also where the heavy leg thing comes in in the preseason of it there's a video going around showing a sequence of play where saka gets the ball he's doubled on the outside side the tottenham line is not good it's broken and there's a clear underlap for odegaard to just run into space so zaka can slide the ball to him but he wants the square ball at the top of the box it stays in that position now there's a part of me that wonders is that just not having the right attacking instincts not having the the energy in the legs i also do think there may be a coaching component here which is odegaard's responsibility to not allow us get countered to ensure that we can break up play if we lose it and these are competing competing motivations right to really challenge the defense to get goals to keep your structure and your shape to not concede goals and there are some that would say we have to work on that balance i don't know because the only two people that could tell you why he didn't make that run would be odegaard and michael arteta right like i don't know i didn't see it my legs are tired ultimately i think we microanalyze it well he He decided I want the ball to feet.

44:44Yeah. In the game. Which I think is his instinct for what it's worth.

44:48Elliot:In the game, there are hundreds of decisions and you make them according to how you feel about that moment. You know, he may have scanned, I can't remember the moment, but he may have scanned to his left and realized there was a pass on and I want it now because I can see I can move it there. We've decided in our super analyst brains, we've decided we want to see underlaps and overlaps. So you haven't done that. Right? so why are you not doing it? Because we're not sure about you technically, we're not sure about your ceiling, blah, blah, blah. We've decided that. Based on what? Based on some people saying it?

45:23Elliot:We were prominent online? Come on, man. This is July. It was July the 31st this game was on. We have to just wait and see what happens. When you get to the Emirates next week and the two games there, you're going to start to see Arsenal look more like Arsenal very, very quickly. Very, very quickly. and then you can start to have a little look about the combinations that we use and the time given on minutes etc the second game we might even get to a point where we see the team that might play OT the week after we've got a full week of training for Old Trafford you see the Premier League start on a Friday and a Saturday and we roll out on a Sunday and everyone's sitting at home with their beers and crisps watching us and we need to be ready for that that is it that is it so don't worry too much about these details I think there's been a if you just break it down in your own mind we're all talking about our offensive issues could we just be nailed again but literally we have the same offensive people out there yet we're expecting massive differences the same coach so people can now say do I blame the coach for not introducing new tactics or do I blame the players for not being different to what I want to see based on based on what?

46:34Elliot:based on things they've read So for me, I want to see the tactics come in an environment where I think they're more suited. So can we get a bit more rotation? Can we get a bit more last line running? We've got two fours that we've already bought, that none of us have really seen play together or in our team yet. And we've got another one we'd really, really love to come in, who none of us know how he's going to play because of what his moves are, because he's so creative. It could all change in an instant. and we are investing in these areas of the pitch and it's been long overdue, right? So we need to hold a little bit longer.

47:11Yep. Well, I can't often relate to the things that professional footballers are going through or the manager is talking about, you know, because they just live in such a different world. But he did reference needing to get over the jet lag in his post-match comments. And I can finally relate to something they are going through because I'm home four days now and it's still punishing. And I know it's going to sound like, oh, here we go with excuses. But like, that is one issue of this kind of travel. Now to be fair, I had a 13 hour time difference. So it's literally night to day. So not as bad. I mean, I think their time difference is pretty similar to when they go to LA.

47:48Honestly, now when they go to LA, they then come back to like a Philly and it's tranched a bit. But the jet lag's real and they're going to need to get back and get over it. They play on Wednesday, they play on the weekend. And then the next weekend, it's Old Trafford. It is coming like a freight train. You know what else is coming like a freight train? an ad read but before i do that i'll let you know we're going to talk about their goal obviously the foul that wasn't called raya's poor summer miles lewis skelly's learning curve and our left back depth issues yep we need to buy another left back everybody it's that time of year we'll talk about zubomendy's impact leo's injury and yokres's first appearance for arsenal which told us everything we need to know uh about why he will be a uh success or failure whichever one you think it showed.

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49:58I'm not saying Kepa has to start at Old Trafford. I'm just saying it would be best if Kepa started Old Trafford. I'm kidding. Some people may not be. They get a goal. It's not a happy moment, but I think it comes from what was a clear foul. Let's be clear. It is a clear foul. Yeah. Now, I don't often like to ask you to repeat stuff you've said on other podcasts, but you said something on the instant reaction yesterday that I think bears repeating because I don't think David Rye is having a very good summer. I think David Raya's flapped at some stuff. I think he was badly out of position on a couple of their corner kicks, like really, really weird positioning.

50:30I think David Raya looked his worst when he was competing with Ramsdale. He looked his best when he had the job, and now he's got another goalkeeper there just standing in the shadows, and we've had a ropey preseason from him. I also think he was a potential player of the season candidate last season. So let's keep things in perspective, but it's not been a great preseason. I think the one thing you touched on is when you got frustrated with Raya towards the tail end of last season in the PSG tie, for example, you talked about things he didn't need to do, and he did it again in this moment. So you want to talk just quickly about that?

51:02Yeah, so Ryle was a hero last year

51:06Elliot:because we had a massive single point of failure with him, didn't we, regarding he had to stay fit. I'm sure he played games when he wasn't in tip-top shape, and he looked mentally exhausted towards the end of the season. He had appeared where he was Spain's number one as well, so he wasn't getting a break. so I think he had a fantastic season last year and when many of our players came back from the Euros a little bit sluggish in the early parts of the season in Champions League Atalanta for example he was making massive saves saving penalties Davila save I mean as high as it could get you know and so he's done really really well but towards the end of the season you start to see a little bit of fatigue in his decision making that was it for me and it was the one that annoyed me it probably annoyed me I just wanted to bask in the moment a little bit more when Saka tips the keeper at the Burnabout and we just need to chill out and enjoy it you know and he's running out of his box and rolling it to Saliba who can't see over his shoulder and he gets robbed and then people say Saliba's losing it well Saliba's not losing it and I felt at the time you just got to manage the game and you don't need to be running around you've just gone 4-1 up in a tie why are we running to roll the ball out you know and that's just that's just where I was at that time and I felt in in this game again it's not about his positioning we have him up high so our centre-packs can split and our full-backs get higher at the pit so technically he's absolutely fine but if you play straight down the middle you better be ready for a bounce or you know otherwise you're telling someone to turn in and turn out and then drive through people which he can do by the way he's very good at that got caught and then we look stupid so for me it's the passing decision not the positioning um do we have to do that um does it really matter no long as you long as you learn from it it's been a couple of times it's happened i think there's one other time and i can't quite remember it but i got my eyes on it hang on let me just get tim on he'll tell us when it was i got my eyes on it and someone's gonna go straight in the comments tapping away right now it was his game club and and I got my eyes on it and I had this thing with him because I see it you know where I see it North Bank end I see him for the first half and I watched his sort of growth at Arsenal and when he first got in I felt he looked a bit as he was establishing himself I felt he looked a bit small and then suddenly he as he got more authority he grew and he and I'm looking at him now and I'm thinking you're looking a bit small again you know and I don't know what it is.

53:44Elliot:It's totally unfair. This is not analysis. It's just a gut feel I have. And that shot from Murphy just sort of cheesed me off a little bit. It snuck in and I'm like, oh, mate, I'm not saying this is full. I just felt just a little bit, oh, come on, we should be stopping that from that source, by the way. And then it snuck in at the near post, the only place it could go in and it found it. Do you know what I mean? And they're like jogging away, high-fiving, two-two, don't deserve to be anywhere near us. and so but it's again it's pre-season for everybody it's pre-season for the refs it's pre-season for the players and you know what goalkeepers need it too need to get their distances right need to understand where they are get their anticipation on crosses needs to be sharper we have to just because they're in goal they are players too and they need to be there the first thing that goes is on through balls when you leave your box you don't get your sort of orientation correct that's one of the first thing that goes they all should they all save shots all the time in training right and um so that it should be sharp at that but that spatial awareness when are in crowd scenes it takes a bit of time to come back so that's where i am with it yep i mean look we weren't good on set pieces at the end of last season and gabrielle migalias not being there is a huge part of that but watching this preseason and looking at that last season, I do wonder if there are some details Raya can tighten up on.

55:13The interesting thing is I think one of the things he's fantastic at, like really genuinely great at, is claiming crosses. You know when you think, oh, that's where his height would show up. No, he reads the flight of the ball well and he claims crosses really well.

55:25Elliot:So what did Thomas Frank do against him? What did he do? He put Van de Ven on him, who basically pushed him into the goal. He did do that, by the way. He absolutely did. That's another one where I think var would be all over it just like for their we're talking referees it's not quite at the races right so no no weird refereeing performances out there it's the post and we we have to scar don't we and we're now analyzing him and getting him and kept us dying at ot right so this is what i mean you have to just look at the game in context and the referee was poor when it came to assessing what a foul was both ways both ways well you know and just weird things like i have to i know there drinks breaks and stuff but you have to play six minutes of extra time in a preseason friend like what are we doing um in 33 degree temperatures i wanted it when we were one no down i did well of course yeah i think michael did too to be fair uh but but i think the other thing that's going to happen with their goal is that people are going to look at miles lewis skelly and wonder is there a little bit of a uh weakness in his game developing where nine times out of ten he's going to take his man on and drive it forward but that tenth time he's going to lose it when he does lose it, really bad things happen, he gets a red card, we give up a big chance, we give up a goal.

56:33First thing I'll say is he's fouled, so stop. Second thing I'll say is players have to be brave and take players on, and so many of the good things that happened to us against Real Madrid or even the good things that happened against PSG or happened at all since Miles Lewis-Gelli came into the team happened because he has that bravery and that strength and that ability to stride away. And for a team that struggles to pull the opposition out of its shape, him doing that becomes a really important part of that capability. So I don't want to take that away from him. But whether you think it's a flaw that he needs to work on or whether you don't, it's still the case that it feels like we've got a very young player going into his only second season starting who is now nearing that, quote, single point of failure, unquote, range.

57:18And I'm wondering how you feel about left back depth. I mean, I think Sinchenko will still find an exit this window. So Calafiore certainly has question marks around fitness that are not going anywhere. You know, Kibior, I guess you could say is an option there. The one thing I will say is that, let's remember, Uri and Timber was a left back for us at first because Ben White is our right back. And I think there will be a lot of games this season where they both play. They both start. But I'm curious how you're thinking about Miles' development and the current state of left back. and does Mikel get to do his favorite thing this summer and buy a left back?

57:56Elliot:No, I don't think there'd be riots if he bought another left back. I would have taken Jarrell Hato, by the way. I hate that he went to Chelsea, but I agree. Honestly, I looked at him. When you look at him, you can't look. Just watch the clips. He looks a lot like Miles in his play. And so you can't do that. What's the point of getting someone for the academy and bringing somebody else in just like him almost? Who's also young. fighting to build his career 19 you know so what we do we've got our 18 year old and he bringing someone who's 19 that doesn't make any sense at all i like the eight defenders we've got you know minus sinchenko she'll say you know that'd be he's number nine um i like them and i haven't got a problem i think we have a situation i've always liked timber's left back so i'm not even concerned about that for a second you know and we saw jett spence did against sacco there's a righty on the left.

58:53Elliot:It works. You know, Livermento does it. Trippier does it. It does work, particularly with a lot of lefties coming off the right. It's a real problem for them. I don't worry about that left-back situation. I think what's really important is, I say really important in the grand scheme of things, Elliot. I like the creativity that Califiori and Miles offer. They're good on the ball. And at this moment in time, Miles is in pre-season, so he looks a bit heavy-legged, and Califioi was looking really, really bright until his knees started to sweat up. And he got out of there quickly. But when they were, you know, if you just close your eyes and remind yourself of how good they are on the ball, it makes up for the maybe lack of on-ball creativity that we see from Declan Rice, shall we say, who does many other things, basically keeps everyone up the pitch, right?

59:44Elliot:Because he's so dominant in the tackles and the pressing and everything like that, and he sweeps up and when we didn't have Declan Rice against Newcastle in one of the halves you were there Elliot how vulnerable did we look on a transition without him you know again pre-season we didn't have the legs people were getting their miles in so we just we think about the game state that we're watching and then we take a picture in our minds and then we think we didn't have this we didn't have that this player did the right player blah blah blah there was another game which suits him really really well but what I will say the two left backs we have are really good on the ball and I want to for me the thing I'm taking away from all this forget the incident and being one yard off and the pass here and decision here the thing I'm taking away from this is how do we elevate our sort of football club so you elevate things by bringing in more competition and raising the bar trying to reach new heights remember the new heights logo got to raise the standards got to raise the bar I look at it footballistically wise what I want to see is an increase in technical ability on the football pitch.

1:00:50Elliot:And our two left backs are really technical. And we must be encouraging them to be so. Because we have some strong box-crashing eights, so technical ability needs to be in the group somewhere. And we need to up it on the left-hand side particularly. We need to get a rhythm on that side of the pitch, which is far more consistent, selection-wise, than maybe where people are standing and what we expect from them. But I truly believe if we're all talking about it, the club tend to be more advanced than us. And I'm sure they're thinking about it too, hence why we're linked with somebody. But I do think Califuri, for example, needs to stay fit.

1:01:31Yeah, that'd be great. Because when he plays, we look so much more creative.

1:01:38Elliot:We really do. And I think we're missing him. we're missing him more than we realise I don't think we've got long memories of him having sustained periods of play but when he plays in offensive areas things happen he scores goals things happen he gets chances and I'm not diminishing Miles because when Miles plays it's towards the end of last season Champions League I didn't want anybody else against those top level wingers nobody else didn't get to the pass Harvey at all so I just want to give him a bit of time it is weird how you can go from the exciting academy player breaking through to the player people are ready to sort of pick at very very quickly because i look at how ethan is talked about he's got to get more minutes he's he's the future superstar we got to play him when i think he's actually been a lot more uneven in his performances when he's played versus a miles who has taken a starting position and been great against the likes of real madrid at the burnt battle but he makes you know one error where he was actually fouled and people like well do we need to look at left back it's just it's weird how quick we are you gotta clean up your timeline you gotta clean up your timeline mate you gotta do it that's a good point yeah it's a good point um well that's why i said this to you even before we started recording i don't want this to become the what's the internet saying podcast but like especially now when there's no domestic games on and you know you're not around 59 ,900 of your closest friends, right?

1:03:06It's harder to assess the zeitgeist. I will say when I was out in Singapore, obviously the zeitgeist is absolutely brimming with positivity, but that's always going to be the case when the club is in town to a place for people who have not had the chance to see them in years. I can't emphasize strongly enough how special that was. So, yeah, go ahead.

1:03:23Elliot:I was guided to miss that trip because I wanted to get that feeling of, sometimes you get a bit narrow-minded, you know? First time it happened to me, I can remember when Grant Shaka was having loads of stick online and I went to a pre-season friendly and Shaka stood up to warm up because the whole ground stood up. And I thought, you know what, don't over-index what you read. There are people that really are supporting, will be supportive. And it's not easy for these players. Think about the pressure that's coming their way this year if we draw a game and lose one. you know and so if we can't provide that protected state for them then no one else is gonna you know so we just gotta wait you know next week I'm looking forward to seeing the players and seeing what they look like how they're moving you know to see if I can spot anything eighth moment in time this is first phase of the pre-season tour it's massive for the global globality of Arsenal it's massive for the culture within the group within the the staff within the players to understand what the priorities are get those you get a chunk of time with the players day and night you get to see their behaviors how they interact this is massive for the coaching staff and i realized that and i saw mikhail's face in the press conference i thought well i've just seen us lose the top of them and he's seen something else i realized that we've got to calm down we've got to calm down yeah yeah well uh i'm going to just tell you i don't think that'll be happening anytime soon that's not how we football um a couple of other things that I think are important and one is just the Zubamendi impact we're still learning about this player and we just have not seen that much of him but if you wanted to if you want to be uncharitable and I'm not saying I want to be you could say the single biggest difference in this game is simply how we look with Norgaard at the base versus how we look with Zubamendi and it's not because Norgaard isn't good but they are different profiles and I also think Zubamendi's impact is that he helps Odegaard stay higher and you know it moves the whole thing up a line and And it also means the ball moves a little quicker and it can move left and right.

1:05:29And I love Thomas Frank's comments about Norgard after the match. If you haven't found him, go find him. You know, just spoke glowingly about him. And I think he is a lovely player that gives us a measure of protection against, you know, where we would be without Zubamendi. But in terms of the progressiveness, in terms of the front footedness, in terms of positioning and reading of the game, Zubamendi is a better player. There's nothing wrong with saying that. That doesn't mean Norgard's a bad player. Zubomendi is a better player. And Clive, when he came on, I think we saw a big difference. We haven't seen a ton of him yet.

1:06:00I think the more we see of him, the more we may appreciate how he can help us with some of the things that are frustrating people.

1:06:06Elliot:Yeah, Zubomendi can play in any team in the world. And that's it. So he's just watching him roll around the base of the team, just how he's always available. And I've watched so many training sessions where you can tell the players that are trusted and the ones that are not in all different angles. and the ones that are not, you go out to other players and then the ones who are, they get the ball a lot because they just move in the right way and they're ready to receive it. So yeah, he's a very good player. My worry is he's really, really good and we're already thinking, well, can he do 60 games?

1:06:43Elliot:He's just really, really good and that's pleasing actually because let's be honest, when we saw him play at Old Trafford or Real Sociedad, some people wondering what's this worth waiting for you know and wondering if he's going to get run past etc which i'm sure he will and as soon as he does we'll be wondering if he's physically good enough um but he suits our team you can see it straight away can't you the way we play the rhythm by which we play he suits it massively and i i think he's really intelligent i think he's offering different layers of movement pressing in follows he follows through he trusts himself to go feel a game and he goes higher on occasions and we naturally will feel around him so he can do that I like when he tries to slide the ball through I just just like his game you know I did actually say to you Elliot that he could be the most important sign of Mikel Arteta's regime and I and I stand by it because these these are the players that run your team you know we all focus on saying it forward right now because after we won I think it's quite important too by the way but that's what we want but this guy is really is important to what we want to do and yeah i like him i like him a lot yeah i think i think it's too early so i find that player to be difficult to evaluate instantly i don't i don't think i know his game well enough yet to say here's what i think he's doing so i'm i'm going to do the rare thing it doesn't make for great podcasting which is just kind of shut up about him and yeah i'm the same with number 10s on occasions right you know players like vertz and players like this i i it takes me a little time to see them when everyone's going crazy about smith row it took me a while to to see that player you know sixes i'm all right with you know fullback exterior players and sixes i'm all right with you know that's pretty number 10s mate you know they take a bit longer to get to my i'll that to you and tim yeah i do i do like a flash number 10 uh okay a quick hitter on this one mikhail said he just felt a tweak talking about leo and i think there's a lot of anxiety around this because i think there's a perception it may not be the wrong perception actually that a leo sale is linked with an as a purchase uh he hasn't signed that new contract yet and dortmund supposedly are sniffing around are you concerned about that injury and it potentially delaying our ability to do interrelated moves only if it's a complete groin rupture which it almost certainly is knowing our luck not not just his groin uh his groin and a couple other muscles too just yeah so if you start a tweak the best thing that you do when you're you're him when you know your body and you've got potential move on on the go you get off the pitch i did read that walking through mix only wasn't springing through you know so um so maybe he's got he has got a proper tweak so But I don't think that'll stop anything happening down the road.

1:09:44Elliot:He just, you know, again, I just think it might be the right time for him. But let's not pretend he can't play. And he's quite inventive. And his game hasn't reached a ceiling yet. You know, he's playing really well for us. He scores goals. He's mostly always available. He has assists. He comes off the bench, can have impact. He can start games, have impact. He can also have quiet games. But he's quiet. You've left out the most important thing. What's that? Have you seen his biceps? This man, I will send you a picture of it. And I am a man of envy. That is who I am at my core. This man's biceps, you talk about short King Summer.

1:10:28He is having a short King Summer to remember. Clive, his biceps are immense. I'm sorry for the nonsense.

1:10:33Elliot:Well, no, I did see him on holiday this year. And let me tell you something. When you see an elite athlete amongst your mitts, you realize you're imperfection quite quickly. He's in good nick, right? So, yeah. So, yeah, let's see what happens with him. I think there's an obvious opportunity to upgrade in that situation, isn't there? And we're all doing the maths. And so, yeah, let's see what happens. Let's see what happens. the good news is we did get better updates by the way on um cal fiore timber and gabrielle who michael said would be ready for the start of the season so just something to bear in mind there um i i do think it's worth touching on yokres's first minutes in an arsenal shirt and i i want to say just a word i'm gonna undermine saying i said earlier i said we're not gonna be what's the internet saying podcast but troll culture is exhausting right because it prevents us from going into digital spaces and having real authentic conversations as much as i would like and so yokaris went out there and the legs were a little heavy and he wasn't at full sprint and there's all kinds of ridiculous nonsense that's being said already it does show you just how much under the microscope footballers are now and how much under the microscope managers are and the the need not just to win everything but the need for every game and every performance to be good in every way otherwise there's going to be people that are opportunistic about creating you know memes about it but i am curious what you made of it to me he looked exactly like what i'd expect of a player who has had one training session with his club and did not was not training with sporting before the signing he just he's going to need to get fit and spend more time working with his teammates it's that simple yeah it doesn't really matter what the price tag says or what our expectations are football is a running game and you need to run you need to train to run and it's always best if you train in the group because you get pushed to your extremities much better in the group then you need to be on a pitch and there's something called match fitness not gym fitness but match fitness that's a different thing right in an uncontrolled environment where the ball comes to your different paces it's not under your control it comes to you at different pace at different angles with people pushing you and trying to smash your legs to pieces.

1:12:56Elliot:That needs time and he just needs time like any other footballer that's playing right now, getting ready for their season starts. I guarantee their first pre-season session was awful and they probably won if they could still play. And they take them days to get over it and next minute they're out there doing it and suddenly it becomes natural again. We just need time. I think it's very difficult, right? You know, to have a maturity about these things all the time. I posted something out this morning, actually, earlier. It was a... It's a mistake. Yeah, I don't post as much as I used to. But the Brentford new manager, his name is Keith Andrews, and there's some good videos on the Brentford channel talking about their pre-season tour in Portugal.

1:13:41Elliot:And it was a mic'd up thing. And Eddie Howe's doing it for Bournemouth. And it's really insightful because you get to see how managers talk to players. and you see the players in the group, they're going for a game prep. And I looked at this and I thought, Arsenal can't do this because we'd extrapolate too much information from it. And then we'd hold it against that person, that player. I mean, the Amazon stuff was brilliant for Arsenal fans, but there are other fans that still take the mickey out of for the team talks when they've got no idea what it takes to get elite athletes to perform and have a new message from every single week.

1:14:21Elliot:They've got no idea, yet he gets really killed for it. And having that maturity to receive information is a tough one. If you think back to the Amazon doc, when Sambi was moaning because he couldn't get on the pitch, that stayed with him for his old arsehole career. So we have to be better. we have to be better to allow people to be themselves you know and get to the point where they can perform for us we have to be better at this more mature look I'm not saying about how to support your club but it's about giving your players a chance you know what I mean just give them a chance and give people a chance to develop I think it's really important the extent to which they're under the microscope is understandable.

1:15:12And for the record, they don't make 15, 20 million a year so that everybody can say nice things about them all the time. The intensity of the passion and the intensity of the scrutiny is part of the reason that they have such a lucrative career in the first place. But there's a line there, Elliot, though, isn't there?

1:15:30Elliot:There's a line there, isn't there? There's a line. We don't cross that line, obviously. We try not to. Can I stop you just for a second? Because I want to be clear because people accuse me of this. I am by no means talking about abuse, right? Abuse and harassment are a separate thing. I want to be clear. I'm talking about meme culture and troll, you know, like, you know, when you're making fun, like one account, you know, just photoshopped him to be, you know, a bad player and, you know, sort of saying, oh, here's what Arsenal just signed. That's not abuse. And I am not condoning abuse. But I'm saying this sort of meme and trolling culture.

1:16:04A good example is just sort of like Aaron Ramsdale, Like in one interview where he talked about struggling to concentrate for a full 90 and people have basically held that over him for the entirety of his career.

1:16:16Elliot:But that's a classic example. He spoke and he said, I struggle to concentrate. So this is what I do so I can concentrate. And I will turn around to the crowd. I have a bit of banter with them and they're abusing me. And it makes me say, right, I better be on my game now. That's absolutely fine. I bet he's not the only player that does that. no but that's not how it's taken and not how it's used because we're not mature enough to receive the information we don't understand what it's like to stand in the ground with 60 000 people around you and the games at the other end of the pitch how can i stay alive what tricks can i use to stay alive it's really it's disappointing i would i totally understood it honestly i did immediately understood it because you need to be like you might have one shot in a game and you need to be sharp, how can I stay alive?

1:17:07Elliot:If I've got a banter with a guy by the corner flag and he's calling me a merchant banker and that keeps me going, then that's your trick. That's your trick. He's out there. We're not. Do you see what I mean? I think we've got to be more mature about how we see these messages and I'll try to understand from their perspective. Yeah, and I think the chance of that happening is low. Yeah, I know. I have to say it anyway. I don't know why. No, no, no, but this is why communities spring up too, right? Because I don't think there are many people listening to this that are also creating memes about players to post on their Twitter account.

1:17:46I don't see these things, Elliot.

1:17:47Elliot:So I don't see these things. I'm not searching them out. Actually, if I'm Jokarez now, I'm not sure I would have flown. Because I've listened to you and Andrew talking about the jet lag. I'm thinking, creaky, mate, you go there just for a few days. That's heavy work. But it also meant a lot to him to do it, and it meant a lot to the supporters out there to see him. And I think there are bigger things at play here. There's no question in my mind, Clyde, that had he stayed in London and trained at Sober Realty, that he might arguably have been more ready for these games coming up and more ready for the season than flying out there to the humidity and the punishing heat and the jet lag and the dog and pony, right, and the being paraded around.

1:18:34By the way, I'm not saying it was a wrong decision because I understand why we did it, but I'm not sure it's the best longer-term decision for his preparedness, but I also think there would have been a riot if we didn't present our new signing. Yeah, and there's more to football

1:18:47Elliot:than just looking after people in a high-performance way. It's about being a club and a set of people together, and he wanted to be there, and the club wanted him there, and I'm totally behind it. I bet people were so excited to see him out there. I bet they were. Yeah, and I'll give you a last example of just how scrutinized these players are. There's a picture of, I want to say it's like Saliba and Kai, or it's two Arsenal players waiting at the airport for the flight back to the Emirates, sitting in chairs, kind of laughing with each other. And in the background of the picture, not even in the foreground, is Jokras sitting in a chair, hand on his head, looking at his phone, and looking down, you know, just, but like, but like, realize, he's just scrolling on his phone, getting ready for a flight.

1:19:30and someone posted it and they're like look at the the toll it's already taking on yorker you know and it's like that's that's the degree of the microscope they're under and and it is it is the case that like you're right you kind of just have to let this stuff go that is the classic example of please touch grass um so okay uh last super quick things here one one more on the game and then one more on michael and the takeaways we'll get out of here in a minute but any quick thoughts on down and you you and i haven't really had a chance to podcast about down and together so i wanted a chance to say um i think he should be as hyped as humanly possible and talked about in the most glowing and and hyperbolic terms on every podcast we do what about you yeah i'm not quite

1:20:15Elliot:there yeah i'm not quite there in that situation i'm trying to be sensible about this um hey look do we go with downaldo or mess man yeah i'm trying to be sensible about this it's hard right When you see someone flying through the pitch like that and seeing grown men trailing in his wake, it's hard not to get excited. But, you know, you have to remember his pre-season, but the hype with this kid is real. And he is no surprise, shall we say, to those that know. And I'm sure he's no surprise to anybody in the club, what he's been doing. And, yeah, just got to look after him. You know, he is a pleasure to watch.

1:20:55Do you think he's going to play real minutes this season? Or have we built that expectation up wrongly? Is that not something we should expect from him? It would be unprecedented, really.

1:21:05Elliot:It depends if he can get out of double maths, right? And if he can't, then he's going to have to do – he's got to go back to school. And that's what he's got this year. He's at a full-time school, and so he's got a long time to go. And I'm sure – I think he will get minutes this year, and that feels pretty obvious to me. and I think it'd be quite exciting when he does. It all depends on the cup draws, for example, and the Champions League draws and the strength of opposition. There's opportunity. It depends on the schedule, games that are upcoming. He's a very talented boy and he's not one of these people that there's opportunities passing by.

1:21:39Elliot:When he's on the pitch, he wants to show what he's got and that's the most encouraging thing that having talent but not having the ability to apply it is something else. He wants it. He wants the whole show And you can't hold people back like that, but you can be responsible about how we communicate with them. Because when he has a bad pass, an over-hit pass, or a bad game, what are we going to say then? You know, so... He has that thing that is different in sports. And every sport has it. You could take someone who's never watched the sport before and knows nothing about it. And when they see that player, they go, oh, that guy's pretty good, isn't he?

1:22:15Yeah. You know what I mean? He's got that thing where you immediately just notice his talent. That doesn't mean he's ready for 3 ,000 minutes in the Premier League and his body's still going to develop. Ethan may very well have been limited in minutes last season because of a growth spurt. Because of actual, physical young man development. And by the way, that is the thing with Max. The guy's basically 6 feet tall now at 15 years old. He may actually wind up playing in the NBA rather than the Premier League, depending on what happens with his body so we'll just have to see you know yeah so let's give him time he should start at

1:22:53Elliot:old trafford the club will know they'll they know his parents what they are what their height is they would know these guys get measured all the time they know they know everything we're just watching we're watching somebody new and exciting um you know this this is all under all under control how this is managed and it is nice to see what what stands out to me you know it's just the movement how he moves you know the balance by which he moves and the movement the gears in his movement he's just he's just not even touching the grass and um you can't not you can't not miss that do you know that is that is god-given talent you know and um much like internet trolls he doesn't touch grass god-given talent and then um he's got he wants to show it as well so he's got the mentality side he's got the talent side he's had to 30 000 hours of training side of things you know in our sort of academy where he's looked after he's got he's got a lot he's got a lot so you just have to wait i'm not sure people are prepared to but i'm trying i'm trying not to too much yeah you you set yourself up right because you you let the fans see this player and once you see it you can't unsee it and mikhail's got a real responsibility there to manage that 15 year old in the right way um there is that saying if you're good enough you're old enough but for fuck's sake he's 15 like you know when when someone's talented you can't miss it you just can't i went to watch a game the other night on tuesday night watching a game non-league game there's a young winger playing and he was ripping it and he was playing two levels before he's gone up two levels and he was playing a team a national league team and he ripped them and he's now got a contract because they have to have to do something with this player and it's like and everyone saw him you can't miss talent we're not you what we're all thinking about max downman and we're getting to know him that's been in the bank years ago from people that understand talents you know they really you can't miss someone like this it's all about how we manage him going forward now yep um i thought mckel made an interesting comment by the way he's asked what his long-term plans are now, his long-term goals, and he said, there is no long.

1:25:08It's short. It's now. It's what we learn, what we take already from the game. We've already spoken about that in the dressing room. You know, we sometimes talk about the fans are wired differently or what you read online isn't the real thing. But for anyone who's saying we need to win now, we need to be short-term, Mikel is saying it too. It's now. It's now. One thing that we are potentially setting up for that I think is somewhat interesting, we are potentially setting up for united to get sesco and i don't know that i'm ready for the media narrative of yokores v sesco opening game of the season at old trafford but but that's how it that's how it if that's how it pans out that's how it pans out but that would definitely be interesting when you look at the numbers being thrown around for that deal i think you can see why it it didn't make sense for us i

1:25:55Elliot:don't think we can't do it and um but it's interesting i remember we were talking about sesco and um yokores you sort of said we were sort of edging towards sesco you said something to you said but could you imagine if yokores went to old trafford and then he's in we weren't playing and and did really well there there's always gonna be a comparison i didn't like that comparison that way around i didn't i was concerned about it but now we've got yokores i'm thinking oh sesco could be quite good and little boy got isak we're gonna be and i can almost i can already We see Scott's radars comparing each other for the first month of the season.

1:26:31Elliot:Do you see what I mean? And it's like, you've got to be happy with your choice and why you've done it. Well, and it is going to be the case, right? It was sort of similar with Caicedo and Rice, but it'd be even worse with a striker because they're expected to score goals. The day Sesco scores a goal and Yoke doesn't, it's going to be, we blew it, what were we thinking? In the day, Yoke has a brace and Sesco kicks one into the stand. It's going to be the opposite. And that's going to be a hell of a rollercoaster ride. But you know what? But if there's anything I can trust, it's that Manchester United, who definitely got it right when they bought Hoyland and then definitely got it right when they bought Xerxi, will definitely get it right when they buy Sesco.

1:27:07I mean, what are the odds?

1:27:08Elliot:Hoyland's looking better preseason, by the way. He's running in a straight line. When he's averaging half a shot per 90 in the Premier League, call me. Just tell him, yeah. Let's leave it there. If you want to get the sporting and the Coventry perspective on Jokras, I think they're great pods, and I hope you'll check them out over on Patreon. There's the Transfer Daily that we just did. The instant reactions are coming. There'll be instant reactions midweek for the Villarreal game, Athlete game? Villarreal first and then Athlete. Athlete next. And yeah, and just stay with us all season long for the treble.

1:27:41Okay, we'll leave it there. We'll be back with a main pod on Monday as usual to talk about Eze getting the number 10, which I think would be pretty exciting. But there'll be plenty more. Clive, thanks.

1:27:53Elliot:Thank you very much. my name is Elliot Smith thank you for listening as always we love you so so much in case we haven't said it but we do mean it and now I will go back to doing what the players are doing which is managing the jet lag we love you and we'll talk to you after Arsenal 10 be around now

1:28:10Elliot:Tomiyasu and Kai Havertz and Martinelli and Arsenal are flying

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