Some Shine, Some Struggle in Cup Win Ahead of Tough Brighton Trip

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1:54Look, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So kudos to Michael Carrick, who figured out that United's secret to success last season was crashing out of the League Cup. This is the Arsenal Vision Podcast. My name's Alex Fiddy. Yeah, that's right. I think, you know, if you look at it, United were able to finish third last season, which is obviously a towering success. And they achieved that by eliminating games. That's the name of the game. Be in as few competitions as you can be. Now everyone knows that is a cause that is near and dear to my heart, actually. But getting out of the League Cup proved to be a really effective strategy for Manchester United last year.

2:27And they achieved it again by losing 3-2, having been 2-0 up. And I have to say, having watched that entire game, they never looked like winning it. They were pretty crap, which was really enjoyable. And I enjoyed it. And I hope you did as well. Okay, let me get all the nonsense out of the way. Friday Night Clive, long-awaited return, back tomorrow. Clive will be back with a Friday Night Clive. And if you want to join us for it, Champions 50 is a code. A couple quids, as Paul would say, or a couple of quid, as normal people would say, and you can check it out, and then you can have the instant reaction to our win on Saturday.

2:58But for today, we are going to talk League Cup and Brighton Preview, and we love you. And it is my absolute privilege to bring back to the show, Teo Papula is here, as they say on the Tuesday Club. Hello, Teo. Hello, mate. How are you? T, as he calls you, as Alan calls you. Anytime I want to introduce you, I just want to say, Teo Papula is here, because that's how you're introduced on that show, and it's burned in the wind. I'm here for it. uh sorry to keep you a little bit today um and you you referenced it in your intro but i was uh getting out today's edition of uh guardian football weekly which never heard of them and um i was just wallowing in the manchester united stuff basically just like how so quickly in the piece michael carrick is looking out of his depth which is a little bit troubling for me actually because you've got a mission to make i mean he's followed his his career path what is one that like kind of should grind my teeth but i've kind of never had it in me to dislike michael carrick and i sort of still like him now but the fact that you know like every every conflict has casualties and you know the fact that he's at man united means like you know sod him really but i do quite like him you know i mean so it's quite hard to it's well i was going to say it's quite hard it's not hard at all to square that uh to square those two parts of me but um it remains funny because my loathing for manchester united um supersedes any kind of feelings i might have for for their manager there are like a few players who fall into the category of it i can tolerate them at clubs i really dislike i think if i try to think of um like a current example i think people know I dislike few clubs as much as I dislike Chelsea, but I actually don't have it in my heart to dislike Rhys James for some reason, for example.

4:52I'll fail you. Yeah, and so there's a few people like that, and I agree, Carrick never really got under my skin, but look, I have love for any former United player who becomes a United manager and steers them to calamitous ruination. So yeah, I'm fine with that, and I think we just need to hope that he clings onto the job until we get a swing at them, which we do, I think, in December. All right, look, lots of fun stuff. Liverpool knocked out Spurs. City played today. We will be going to Fleetwood Town. And look, I'm pretty convinced that this is bent, that this is all fixed, because what are the odds that we just happened to get the game at Highbury, right?

5:34I mean, Teo, come on, man. That was too good for them to pass up. They chilled one of the balls in the bowl. surely us going to highbury had to be a fix right i mean yeah i'm i'm here for it it's i mean it's a shame not to have uh a tie a home tie um for those of us who are lucky enough to be close enough but i like the feel of it i like the fact that they play in their uh you know they play in a kit similar to ours right and they play at ground so everyone will have fun with that um and um I know that we'll be able to hear the away fans loud and clear because they were fantastic again at Ipswich, weren't they?

6:13Yeah, they were. I mean, for people who don't know, apparently what was going on at Ipswich was also a lot of Arsenal fans had gotten into the home end and as the game was winding down, they were just taking off whatever they were using to conceal their colours and revealing their Arsenal colours and so Arsenal shirts were popping up, dotting the home end and they were being summarily escorted out of the ground, which is fine because Arsenal had wrapped that game up early, but I thought it was fun. And you've only come to see the champions and stadiums are empty everywhere we go. Yeah, they were in great voice.

6:44It's interesting to see whether they would have done that at the New Den rather than at Portman Road, but I guess hopefully we'll never find out. Never find out, man. Yeah, I don't think you go to Millwall and show up in Arsenal Colours. I don't think, you know, personally, I don't think you go to Millwall at all, but that's another story. And thankfully, we haven't had to in a long time. Look, let's get into this one. I think this conversation is pretty easily divided around sort of the players that sparkled and popped and caught the eye and the ones who didn't. Before we do that, though, I do just want to ask how you enjoyed this.

7:19I found this a very fun watch. It was sort of a throwback watch in some ways. Arsenal have been so high stakes the past several seasons. And so when we get low stakes football, it is kind of, at least for me, a nice respite, a nice chance to just enjoy watching Arsenal, enjoy watching some players we don't see as much, especially kids like Max, who are so exciting. But I also found myself thinking about the future of this competition and why it exists. And I don't want to concern Troll as our sort of top topic, but when an Ipswich town has a home cup tie against the champions and makes 10 changes, you know, this Isn't, you know, Manchester City making changes, Arsenal making changes.

7:59Sure, we made changes. This is Ipswich Town home cup tie against the champions and they make 10 changes. It does raise the question of who this is for. So it's a two-parter for you, Tao. It's taken a while to get there. How much fun did you have with it? But did that also strike you, the idea that this competition is increasingly peripheral and it's sort of like, who is it for at this point? It's really interesting that you bring up both those things. Maybe why we're friends, we think the same way sometimes. times i had both those thoughts um i sat down really looking forward to this game so to answer question one i really really looked forward to this game and it was only actually when the fine when the first whistle went that it occurred to me that we might not win it like i've got so much so much weight had come off after as you say the the you know the everyday tension the every week tension of of competing at the top so i was kind of looking forward to this as a as a bit of a holiday right that's uh makes the food watching at home and then the final whistle and then the first whistle went and I was like oh actually god we might not win this and then of course seven minutes in and then and so on that changed back again so so once we got on the board I knew we were going to stay on stay there and I enjoyed it all I enjoyed looking at the game slightly differently from it's interesting how for me I watched the game a lot in a completely different way when I'm not absolutely kind of about to lose my lunch uh with worry you know so I was enjoying certain plans I was watching some of my favorite players I'm sure we'll come to the fact that some of my favorite players didn't perform the way that I wanted them to but I enjoyed it I enjoyed the rotation that we put in but it's different when we rotate stuff because as we know we've got this um incredible squad on to the question about the changes um it baffles me I think was it palace last season or everton well certainly newcastle the season that they won it tim's not on so say whatever you want i won't remember enough to correct um i do not understand how those kind of middling teams um and this is the point where you say with all due respect but i do mean middling teams whose best hope of winning a trophy is this uh much as though um i i disliked Eddie Howe's Newcastle that season they came to win it and did so you know what I mean and I don't understand why you wouldn't have um a bigger tilt with it but you know what Elliot that's their problem not ours really and by doing so if it means that we can tiptoe through to the to to the later stages um and you mentioned again about Carrick and them going out in the first round I know we're anyone who listens enough times knows how you feel about the about this cup as we kind and progressing it there is that kind of clutch point isn't there where um i would like us to do what um arsene wenger did back in whichever year please help me out to in whichever year it was 2007 um or 2008 when we went all the way to cardiff with the chelsea final the chelsea final which we lost ultimately if you're going to do that stay with that it was 2007 by the way 2007 seven thank you um if you're gonna do that then then then stay with that all the way because that lee that double-legged semi-final just fills me with dread it comes at a terrible time of the year especially with two additional champions league two additional champions league fixtures in january now that weren't there before yeah hopefully we got the squad that's gonna kind of if we do get that far get us get us over that hump or to your point let's get out of it let's get out of it, preferably not with Fleetwood, but let's get out of it before we do this.

11:43It's sort of interesting in a way because in the past I would have said, let's just get out of it. Now I look at it and I say, we almost have the squad where you say, it's not a bad thing for some of these players to get a run out. You know what I mean? To keep Mikel Marino ticking over and Zubamendi ticking over and we'll come to Yoko Asineza a bit ticking over. And if Incappier hadn't been, I presume some kind of injury, he gets minutes. And it is, by the way, a great reminder of why it's so good to have so many midfielders because unlike defenders who tend to be specialists in one position, when you have so many midfielders, Zubimendi can just slot in it right back for a cup tie like this.

12:17I do think we also, we've been so blessed with academy talent, which has not been the case for many years, that I think we are in danger, Teo, of overlooking how special this is and taking for granted what Max and Marley are doing. These are 16-year-olds playing in the first team and playing at a high level. We'll come to Marley Salmon second because I think it feels a little out of order if we do Marley before we do Max. But what Max Downman is doing at this age, there's almost a presumption that he should and will play at a high level in the first team. Now, the opposition here was poor. I mean, a full-strength Ipswich should not be good enough for Arsenal, but a rotated Ipswich certainly would not be.

13:04but it's in a way league cup tie under the lights you know televised men's football max was playing the u21s the last game because there was no room for him on the bench in our very loaded squad um in the previous game which was against sunderland that's right uh see my memory still works somewhat um so i guess what i want to ask you is just whether you still get wowed by max down and That goal he scores, to be running at full tilt and execute that skill, that technique, to trip up the defender, get past him, and then fire it into the side netting, giving the keeper the eyes and no chance. Like that, that is a remarkable thing to do if you're 16 in a U21 game, but to do it at men's football in the League Cup to open the scoring and something else.

13:58So do you still have the capacity to be wowed by Max Domeny? Do you find yourself starting to just become normalized to it where you expect him to perform this way? well it is to be wowed and one of the reasons for that is because of how well he's been handled by the club right so there's enough gap between seeing him for me to still go god damn this kid you know because um and it'll be very interesting when he does play more and is subjected to the the pressures and the scrutiny of a player who's playing more often because he'll have bad games right as it is at the moment he's come in and the cameos that we remember are first of all wowing everyone in pre-season you know um a season and a half ago at the start of the last season then we can fast forward to the first example of the soft shoe shuffle against Everton and then we can transfer then we can fast forward to this right so I'm still at the stage of being wowed by this kid that i'd heard about for ages before because i haven't seen enough of him what i think is a lovely development is he was in the big boy he played in a big boy position against hip switch albeit a uh one with loads of changes and all the caveats he put in already he played in a big boy position he played in herdegaard's position kind of thing you know like he wasn't he wasn't um he wasn't out on the...

15:33Well, he finished out on the wing, but he wasn't just stuck out on the wing, you know, like, hey, go try some stuff. We've got it in here. He's in the midfield. Yeah. There you go. He was in the mid... Yeah, I'll say he had a good position. You know what I mean? He's in the midfield in a decision-making position, in a position which, if you make mistakes, can have consequences, as opposed to what, you know, Arsene always used to say about, you know, stick Torre or whoever's new out on the left wing and they can make their mistakes there. and that also of course will feed into when we talk about um marley salmon of course as well but so yeah to answer your question i am still wowed by him like that goal um his balance i've watched that gif of him trying to work out what he does with his feet like enough times yeah alone let alone like you know if it's pushing it to a hundred thousand then i'm claiming 90 thousand times at least um and then um but then also the the second one elliot like yeah one touch two touch then passing it in you know what i mean like he's slow he's slowing stuff down while doing it at 100 miles an hour and that is the elite skill that i want to see like to him it made absolute sense to sit down that defender in that way and then and then rocket it into the cut into the into the side by the way so it's a gorgeous finish but that second one also the the touch the set and then he just passes it in he doesn't rush it we saw when bromo um in the last minute um against donna bromo um and i just remember thinking that's the kind of finish that a lot of us would do that's a there's a there's some panic in there this 16 year old kid just passed it in and nonchalantly wheeled away love him love him Elliot yeah and I mean I think it it's hard not to start to extrapolate out from you know what you see today to do the what could he be in the future thing I think that's almost unfair you know we don't we don't need to do that we can enjoy what he is today without demanding that we know what he will be in the future.

17:47I think the interesting question, though, is when he's playing this well, he's going to come for someone's shirt soon. It may not be this season. I think the fact that you saw him in the U21s at the weekend when we went to Sunderland and there was no room for him on the bench, you know, if a mascara comes back into the squad, if we stay relatively healthy, lol, then it may be difficult for him to make too many, at least league and, well, Champions League, there's more room, but league squads. But, you know, I mean, and we'll come to some of the players who may be at risk, but there are pretty senior players in the team that will be looking over their shoulder at this kid because fundamentally, we saw it against Everton last season.

18:27If you're someone who can get a goal, if you're someone who can create a goal, that's worth having on the bench. That's worth having in a team. You never know when you're going to need a goal. And if you're Mikel Arteta right now and you're desperate for a goal, he's got to be in your thinking, at least as someone who could provide that. So I'm blown away by him. The other youngster that I think, I mean, we should, by the way, credit Theo Julian for getting on and playing well. And, you know, there were some goals that came down his side and the end of the game was a little bit sloppy. But still, I mean, you know, you always want to credit these academy kids when they come in and they get a chance in the first team.

18:59But the other one who caught the eye is Marley Salmon. And as great as Max Daumann is, I don't think, well, it is unprecedented what he's doing. But attacking midfield, wide forward, those are positions where we're more used to seeing quite young players come in and make a difference. Anyone who watched Manchester United will see how hard it can be to be a teenager playing center back. Aiden Heaven, you know, not good. He does not look good, and he's about to turn 20. He's not 16. Now, Aiden Heaven was up against a very good Brighton team that I think will be trouble this weekend, and we'll talk about that.

19:30But Marley Salmon at 16 looks very at home there. And the thing that I love is how comfortable he is on the ball. I mean, there was a moment in this game where he dropped the shoulder and carried it past someone and got fouled. And he just, he, he plays, forget confidence. Confidence is something that you have or you don't have based on, you know, what happened in the last action. But the technical level is very high. And I think this new generation of center backs that have a high technical level is how the game is changing. You know, they're not just shit kickers and who play agricultural football and try to keep the ball out of their net he seems to have both and we don't talk about him much because there probably isn't much of a path for him in the short term I don't think you'd want a 16 or soon to be 17 year old kid playing center back in games that really matter but I I've seen enough to say that I think we should be thinking about him as an elite talent at the club that we want to foster and bring through yeah I'm I'm a bit I'm struggling with this one a little bit because I don't know I haven't got much reference points i haven't got many reference points for an elite 16 year old center half have arsenal ever had an academy center back come through and do well i mean that is it anyone come to mind there do you have a history of that i mean from well i mean it's obviously like it's interesting you mentioned like you know our youngest captain and like hero uh tiny adams was but that was my and i sound by what i said before because i was too young i hadn't started going when when tony adams kind of broke through right don't let clipe here you say that what right yeah so i mean obviously of course we're all aware of that but my point is is that like you're used to i watch seska come through i've obviously watched uh myriad uh players at other clubs come through at that age whether whether it's a sterling whether it's a rooney or whatever you're used to that in an attacking sense there's room for that mistake there's room for the wizardry and you know less receipts are kept with their mistakes this kid is playing at center half one of the hardest positions to hide not out on the of course he's played as a fullback because of course he has but he's playing in that position and he just seems so comfortable with it I don't know enough to make the pronouncements apart from the fact that he's not playing like a 17 year old 16 year old he's not playing like a kid someone with much more technical knowledge will tell you how good he is and why he's as good as he is but for composure and for a surprising amount of strength given what looks like a a slight frame although he's filled out even from when I saw when we first saw him it's really really exciting but you know what if you're going to play and to your point about the the the Carabao Cup this is perfect for him to be paired alongside first of all Gabriel Gabriel and then concert I mean wow like wow for the kids you know what I mean to to go and do that and to not be out of place and I really really liked when Gabriel went over to him at that point and you know did the whole very demonstrative kind of jeeing him up um that is kind of performative with a reason and it felt good for him and for us and made him feel like you know we went together we lose together something else which i'll come on to kind of later on so yeah really really really really exciting and but i've got no real watching a reference point for someone like that before.

23:09Yeah, I mean, certainly not any time in the recent past. And we've had, we had Aiden Heaven, for example. I remember going to LA and watching Aiden Heaven play a preseason game against Bournemouth when he, I guess was probably roughly the age Marley Salmon is now. I guess that would have to be. And I remember thinking, he looks a long way off to me. You know, he looks a long way off. And that's not to say Aiden Heaven can't develop into a lovely player. I mean, he is still just 19, But Marley Salmon looks ahead of where Heaven was at that time. Well, it does – sorry to cut across you, but it does say, though, as well that – well, it tells us to proceed with caution with Aiden Heaven.

23:48Sorry. It tells us to proceed with caution with Marley Salmon and anyone who is that age. Because Aiden Heaven is playing too many games at Manchester United. or he's closer to the first team at Manchester United because they're where we were before. We've seen this happen before. We've seen people get chewed up for players. Thrown into the deep end with a less good team surrounded by less good. I mean, Marley Salmon had Gabby next to him. Aiden Heaven had Lenny Uro. Right? I mean, there it is. But it also goes to show that, I mean, we're in a position where we can preach patience. Like it was, it was amazing listening to all the, all the pros and all the conversations after the Ipswich game saying about how all of them said the same thing.

24:33Um, like it was like a coordinated press release. Um, Max Downing is in the right place with the right manager at the right club, doing the right things. Right. And what is happening with Haylen, what is happening with our manager because of the strength of the club at the moment means that they can be built through incrementally like that. Aidan Heaven seems to be like further ahead, but also further ahead than maybe he should be. But it also goes to show that the judgment of the manager was right. We didn't put up an enormous fight to keep him in a way that we might have done. The same with, I'm going to say, is it Chido Obi?

25:09Yeah, Chido Obi Martin, who's now maybe leaving. Chido Obi Martin, who's now out on loan. Yeah, he's out. You can be pushed too quickly because of the circumstances that the club is in or the needs of the club at the time. We are very lucky at the moment that we have great central-defensive partnership in Europe and some pretty decent backups as well. So Miley Simon can come in and look good in the same way that Max Dalman can come in and look good. But look, let's kind of chill our bones a little bit. there's been too much talk of really young players recently it seems to have kind of upped maybe you know maybe the um you know the 24-hour news cycle means that we need too much of that but let's chill our bones a little bit if we can well i mean you may be alluding to this but you just have to look at the jj gabriel situation at manchester united and it it's fairly ridiculous but it's a reminder of how complicated managing these young superstar talents can be now and how well we've done with Max and Marley, and it's kind of just flown under the radar that that's been pretty low stress.

26:16I mean, whatever you think of how we've handled Ethan in terms of his career trajectory, we got him to sign and stay. Miles, obviously, there's been some noise, but he's signed and stayed, and Mikhail Saka's our star boy. Now, we've managed these situations pretty well. I'll give you some words from Mikel really quickly on Max's impact quote a joy to have him Marley as well 16 years old to play at the level with physicality that they have to be able to handle that level it's remarkable and Max yeah it's inevitable to talk about him when he scores and he creates the moments that he has tonight it's normal I think what he means by normal he means it's normal to talk about on how impressive he was attacking and defending quote that's something natural for him and he can deliver those actions effortlessly I would say that's his biggest quality.

27:03And defensively, his application, his capacity as well to sustain the actions, which is not easy. He's 16 years old. He keeps referencing that. And he can create moments. But consistently to go through the game every phase with the demands we put on them to be able to do that is extremely difficult. And he's coping better and better. He did the action where he regained the ball and wins it. In the first goal, he loses his man. And that's the thing we need to continue to reiterate with him because he's an unbelievable player because of the character that he has and how much he loves to play a game and handle the situation with such naturality.

27:30I think what he means is he lost his man on their first goal, and that's something that we have to work on. Look, I felt watching Max and Marley a little bit that at about 60 or 70 minutes, they were gassed. And that is the thing. A 16-year-old isn't going to have the aerobic capacity to play 90 minutes of men's football at the top, top level. And that part is just, that is a limitation of age that I don't know that you can just get over. And you don't want to push them past that wall necessarily. So looked a little gassed to me at the end of the game, but that's okay. Let's, oh, one last thing he did say.

28:05On if a 16-year-old can play regularly in the Premier League, quote, everything is possible. The probability probably is extremely low because you don't see the players with the capacity to handle just the physicality of the game. Not only that, but the demands that you have to put your bodies through in the week to be able to be in good condition to compete, the amount of information, the challenges you have to face. But he's doing it, and he's doing it really well every time he's got a chance. And that is, by the way, something I don't think we talk much about, but that's interesting. The game has gotten more cerebral, right?

28:33This isn't the Tuesday Club generation. This is film study, understanding the tactics of the opposition and where you're going to have to stand to neutralize them. It's not just the weightlifting, the sprinting, the training, the talent. It's now the film study and the cerebral part of the game. And at 16, you're still learning to be a student along with an athlete. and you have to be intelligent to play in Mikel's system and to understand your role. And so I think that's all stuff that has to come with time. Look, before we get to the maybe, I don't want to say downsides, but the less exciting performances, the one that maybe have cause for critique, a couple other people that I thought were interesting to talk about in this one, Teo.

29:14You know, when you get on the pitch in a game like this, as a player, I think you've got to know, this is my chance to say to the manager, pick me more. Look what I did here. I stepped up to this level I performed I want more minutes at the next level right this is your audition to put some pressure on the guy who's got the shirt ahead of you and I thought both Mikel Marino and Nani Maduike did really well and put performances in that say they can take on more now with both those players it's a different situation one I don't think Arteta has any lack of trust in Marino two Nani Maduike is not getting ahead of Mikayo Saka like no matter what he does in the League Cup but if you think Saka's flagging?

29:56Does a performance like this from Nani give Mikel more trust to not push Saka beyond the barrier? If Martin Odegaard needs a day to recover and you don't want to lose him at the top level, does this give you permission to do that? I think these are the kind of performances that will really encourage Mikel that he can do that, and that's exactly what you want to do when you're sort of a squad-type player and you get a chance to go out and start. You know? Yeah. I'll start with Nani Maduweki first. I've not been. Yeah, I was really impressed. Close to being a bit his biggest fan.

30:33To say the least, I think there's probably some texts from me to you, which if they ever made public, would be a problem. But no, look, I thought he did really well. I thought he played really well. I thought he took on his man. I think he stepped up. And again, you could start off with, yeah, but Ipswich, but as we're coming to, there were people who, yeah, but it switched and still didn't, didn't do what was necessary in their audition. I thought he was, look, he's got, I think what's maddening for me a lot of the time is that he's got it. Oh, he's got the physicality. He's got the speed. He's got the first trick.

31:13Does he, can he slow down and do the right thing with the, with, with the ball, with the final ball, with the pass? Can he take the game seriously enough to keep working hard and deliver on what are his Ontario talents? And that's kind of been some of my problem with him. None of that was an issue against him, so I thought he stepped up really well. and yeah I think he there will be no need to to as you say rush back Bukayo or to not take him off at 65 or 70 you know 70 minutes when when it's required basically so I thought he was really impressive I thought it was quite interesting when um the first time you see after he does that amazing that that lovely half turn in the box and and and fires it across gold i mean i probably reached my phone like in a confirmation bias to be like ah there he is he does the hard bit but then you realize that he was doing that on purpose and i was like oh okay being a bit shimmy this is me kind of intervening on myself by saying it out loud he was looking for someone to get a touch there i think yeah but what but what i still didn't like elliot and i've i've thought about this before is that he kind that very demonstrative or and there was a few of them and we'll come to that i'm sure but there's a very kind of performative where were you with the hands kind of shrug and the big like that that's for maybe that's almost for people like me at home to know that he'd done his bit but that's not quite the win together lose together um that you kind of want to see with a team i don't want that to creep in even though it feeds our you know it you know it feeds the beast it feeds stock falling conversations and all that kind of stuff like present a united front at when you are in front of the cameras kind of thing so that's something that i'm not a big fan of they did but that's that's kind of nitpicking on marino i thought he was i thought against sunderland his cameo was a little bit all over the like maybe he needed the rhythm of playing a little bit maybe he's a player who does need the rhythm of playing a little bit but i thought he was really good against um against uh ipswich and obviously the goal was the goal was fantastic there's something about him which i'm really which has just grown on me like you know there was a point i'm not going to sit here and say that i've loved him from day one but you know the question from the question of what is a marino has been more than more than answered we joked about him being a kind of Harvey Cartel, Mr.

33:54Wolf, like coming on at certain parts of the game to kind of, there's a situation that needs to be fixed. Yeah, he's a fixer. Yeah, you know, there he is in his kind of tuxedo on the side coming on very upright and he'll fix the game. He'll do what is necessary. Fantastic player, fantastic closer. Love to see, well, I'd love to see five games in a row from him, but that would mean someone else is missing. So, you know, let's see. He forces you to expand your criteria for what a midfielder might be to to to think of a different archetype but in terms of the way he executes what he does that that turns a game the critical moments of a game he's unique and i i do think he gets better and better the closer he gets to goal which is why we're going to get into these uncomfortable questions about what is the right role to get more from mikhail Marino and is he moving up the striking pecking order and and that's that's going to get to be a tricky question because when I watch Marino I feel safe with him on the pitch but I see him give the ball like we saw it in the premiere like give the ball away a bit deeper in the pitch or look like his turning radius is a bit bigger when he's deeper you know when he's closer to goal his own goal as he gets up the pitch everything starts to happen first time he's winning headers he's flicking on he's playing in his teammates he's scoring nonchalant goals from the top of the box you know doesn't hurt to have a striker who can do that and so tail like before we get into the the flip side of this coin is it getting harder to deny that this player while he can be a wonderful squad player in midfield of course is maybe gonna have to start to be considered a little higher in that striking pecking order because of what he does around the final third yeah nailed it i mean when you're talking about your archetypes there as well if you think about obviously the his physique and the fact that he came in when granite shaka left you know we'd all decided by his profile and our own kind of biases what he was going to be and as you said which is exactly what i was going to say he's more and he's effective closer to the opposition goal um it's the decisive flicks it's the headers that he wins is the people that he brings into the game it's that kind of not quite a midfielder i mean that whether you want to call it a nine and a half or whatever you want to like that's what he does best um i don't find him i don't find him very secure uh yeah closer to in front of the center halves um around there i do worry about him kind of you know he can sort or quite clumsily lose the ball sometimes, and then not be able to recover it.

36:42We saw that amazing, you know, Solis losing the ball against, who was it, and then running back against Villa, wasn't it? And then running back. And we know that is the prerequisite to play for Mikel Arteta. But sometimes it's not a case of he can't be bothered to ride, and we'll come to that. It's because he can't get back once he's got the ball. He can't cover the ground. He can't cover the ground. So, yes, I think he's getting himself into a position where, like, who do we need when we need a goal? You mentioned Max Dahmen early on. You would think about Mourinho for someone when we needed a goal if he was coming off the bench, like for a situation later in the game.

37:19So we've all had to kind of reframe him as an offensive player, as an offensive midfielder. But now perhaps we should start thinking of him, as you say, more in that position as an alternative to Kai Havertz. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's where this conversation is going to go. And I think that's where we can go next. We'll talk about Gil Kresneza because I think that there's those were maybe the more disappointing aspects of the game and worthy of a chat about where we are in terms of that performance. I will say just as a last couple of notes before we do that, first of all, I want to give Mikel some credit because, you know, if you don't rotate for these games, when are you going to rotate?

38:00But he did. So, you know, we've felt at times that maybe he was guilty of overplaying certain players. One thing I love that he did, he didn't put Marley Salmon next to some other academy kid. He put him next to Gabby who played a half and then he put him next to Konzo who played a half. They shared the game. You know, it replaces a training session for those guys. I don't think there's anything wrong that I think that's really well handled. He used Miles and Zuby at fullback to not risk his lone fit left back and potentially his lone fit right back. So those players were saved. Rice had a night completely off.

38:30Saka never came on. You know, he got Ibrahim on. He got Theo Julian on. So I think all things being equal, a really well-managed game from Mikel. Yeah? Thought on that? Can I just give a quick shout out to Miles Lewis-Galey as well, who I kind of, I felt a little bit sorry for him at left back when it started. But he used that position really cleverly, I thought. He was hardly ever there. He was hardly ever there. The fact that he came to get the ball off the centre-halves, or you found him quite often between the centre-halves. and I thought he kind of grew into grew into the game grew more comfortable in the game I don't think he's always started off games that well this season so far but I thought that he always he's intelligent enough to find out what the guy in the game needs and then be there and I'd also love seeing how furious he was for the final goal where he got kind of taken out by Chubrakpum for that.

39:42It was nice to kind of see that kind of... It's Arsenal kind of night. Yeah, you don't see MLS that angry that often, basically. But yeah, just a shout out for him, because I really liked the way he kind of grew into that game. Yeah, while we're doing that, I'll say also a shout out to Bruno Guimaraes, only in the sense that I love a player who plays every game, like it's the last game of football they're ever going to get to play. And I do worry that he'll be a red card machine because he's so intense. He went into one challenge, stacked his boots and went in two footed, but he kept those feet down.