Squad Depth and Clean Sheets Continue to Be the Story

38:39And I, it's funny because the more extraordinary performances he puts together, the more I want Mikel to just wrap him in cotton wool. You know what I mean? It's like, this guy is just at an incredible level. And you look at what he did in this game again, and I think he's evolved with Odegaard out. I think something's changed a little bit here. And this is the thing that I'm really sort of catching on to with Declan Rice is that he's taking more responsibility to do so many of the things that Odegaard did. I mean, we've seen Odegaard drop between center backs to pick up the ball. Well, Declan Rice was doing that in this game very clearly.

39:17Declan Rice led us in passes into the final third with 10, but he also created five chances. You know, he takes the corners. he runs the ball up the pitch he recovers the ball more than anybody else and he had this one through ball in the game I can't remember when it was let me see if I took a note on it I did right on the hour mark a stunning long ball through ball right up the pitch through to Saka for a shot that was saved he did something similar against Burnley and I'm wondering if you see his game evolving a little bit almost to replace the Odegaard role in the wake of Odegaard's absence because I think from a final third entry, touches, even creativity standpoint, it's all gone up a notch with Rice.

40:01Elliot:Yeah, so basically in this game, he didn't so much replace Odegaard, maybe he replaced a little bit of Zubimendi in this game, right? And so he took on a lot more ball-playing capabilities and he's able to do it now because I remember when he played in the conference final for West Ham and West Ham played him as a true Elliott-style six, he did not move from that back four that day. They sent him out and said, can you make sure we don't lose this game? And he defended, protected, in a very one-dimensional way and won the game very, very good and great night for West Ham and for Rice himself as a captain.

40:44Elliot:But he's doing so much more now with us. You think about the high eight positions he was taking up last year. For me, you know my thoughts, I felt he was high too early, too long, waiting for the ball. I don't think that's the best way of using him. I think when he came back from Dubai the first time and he started taking set pieces, that was another thing for him. That led to the free kicks. You'll know what happened there. His ball striking is out of this world. The way he receives it now on the half turn, not Norgaard closed body, but on the half turn, onto the back foot, left foot, flowing through him, When he loses his picture, he's got a way of dribbling out of pressure.

41:22Elliot:Even when there's no pressure, he just changes the angle to create a running lane for him. When he's running, good luck in trying to catch him. We all know his moves now. He can switch it. He can do everything. He can do absolutely everything now. I think the key for me, for him, is he feels confident in his technical ability within the group. He's got a role which leans into technical ability. He sees things and creates momentums and stops momentums. But the key thing for me is his tight position. And so when I got really excited this season, this preseason, Bill Bale game, first half, that's when I saw the new Arsenal appearing, how we attack.

42:02Elliot:And he dropped into the back line. He dropped out of it. But he was definitely working in conjunction with Zubimendi. And I saw it for the first time into our back four. I thought, well, you can now see the whole pitch. And from there, you can do a lot more than waiting for someone to give you the ball. you know you can now see the whole picture you can control games in your own way depending what the game's asking for you on that particular day but the key is your starting position and i'm not saying he's a lone six but we all know you can do it he's working in conjunction with somebody else there's something else i'll one of our patrons for me were talking online actually about how are sort of working in pairs a lot more i remember last season when odegaard came out and we started to work in pairs.

42:45Elliot:We sort of had Trossard and Havertz as a pair, remember? And we took out the third man in midfield, took out the positive three, and it worked until it didn't, right? But now we're almost back to that again, right? So we have a centre-back pair, which you'll know about. We have Timber and Saka as a pair on the right-hand side. We have Calafiore and Trossard as a pair on the left. But the key difference is Zubamendi and Rice as a pair, and also Eze and Jokerez as a pair, a split pair, but one plus one. And so we're now playing much more like this. So these units now are in twos rather than threes.

43:21Elliot:And I think that partnership is everything. I'm talking about Rice and Zubimendi. Physically, technically, psychologically, it is so perfectly complementary. It really is. And I think it's bringing out a better side of Rice. I think it's bringing out things. You know, well, I have to do this now because the other guy can't do that but i can do this but they're getting closer together in their all-round all-court ability and i think it's beautiful to watch right and so now that's manifesting into his england sort of influence he's now taking set pieces of england he's taking more offensive control so the english media wondering what we've got how's this happened how's he developed maybe the manager might get some credit one day but let's not worry about that right now two of these needs to win some when you win it'll all come your way but i think development has been significant.

44:10Elliot:I'm 26 and I'm looking forward to that new contract here. I don't know about you, mate, but we need to get it done, don't we? Yeah. Yeah. Signed to Ting. Definitely. I want to stay in the midfield for a minute, but let's just hit some brands before we run out of time. And people accuse me of not telling them what brands to care about in their life. And then that I let them down because I will never let you down. So here are some brands. If your business runs on five different apps, 12 browser tabs, and one spreadsheet that everyone's afraid to touch, it's probably time for Odoo. Odoo is an all-in-one business management software that connects every part of your business into one powerful, easy-to-use platform.

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45:31Okay, Paul, midfield. Just in terms of thinking of the dynamic, I think obviously Clive covered the Rice component of it really well. The other component of it is the continued evolution of Ethan Wannery learning the position in midfield. And, you know, Norgaard finally getting fit and being able to contribute. He had a bit of a weird role because instead of the Zubamendi role, right, of being that first player in buildup. Saliba was stepping into midfield. So the whole midfield shape was a little interesting. I'm not as interested in discussing Norgard's role particularly because I think he's going to be the Swiss Army knife who comes in when someone has to sit down and does whatever job he's given and will do it at a 6 out of 10 level because he's just a solid professional.

46:15He's a Swiss Army knife with one blade. With one blade. Yeah, he's the opposite of a Swiss Army knife then. He's a knife. He's just a knife. Um, uh, but the Ethan thing is interesting because he continues to develop in midfield and this is a big night for him, right? Getting a start in midfield in the champions league as another chance to say to the manager, you know, I'm, I'm learning this role. So how do you evaluate his contribution? He got 65 minutes, which I'm guessing was probably pretty close to the plan. Um, but I think what's hard with a player like Ethan, Ethan has the kind of talent where you kind of rate him on, did he do something extraordinary, right?

46:56Did he get it on his left foot and curl one in from 20 yards? Did he beat three men on a dribble and provide an assist? But even though that's how you might evaluate a player like that, sometimes midfield is about fitting into the group and not needing to stand out, but needing to just keep possession, keep it ticking over, press appropriately, cover back. So sometimes when a player like ethan doesn't have a moment of precocious talent where you where you're you know you're a gag a gog you can think that the game passed him by so i wonder how you think about that him just fitting into midfield and taking another step in his development in that role uh yes so the one word that comes to mind with ethan one question is that presence right um now it's a little bit to do with the position you play and what's been asked of you um because his ability on the ball to carry to dribble um is what partly what he separates him from uh normal mortals um and that's not that easy to just turn on um there's not many players even who have the talent talent who can choose their moments in the game where it's there for them so he's definitely on a learning phase and he may have a tendency to underwhelm a little bit especially in the the whirl of a game um so like i thought he was quite good in this i wasn't you and i had a chat about it on the instant reaction um i definitely think he could have done a bit more on the end product t bit the final ball there was a a moment he played a really nice ball to a saka who was not actually running in behind at the time now whose fault is that i don't know but like he he had a couple of moments a shot a pass here there in the final action where it didn't come off and i think that that's one of those things that subtracts from your overall performance i thought his overall performance was all right i thought it was his midfielding on the right hand side was decent If he'd had a couple moments in the final third into the box, I think we'd see this performance very differently.

49:16And you can say, but he didn't. But if I'm the manager, how players make me feel on the ball, in the game, as we're playing our game, that they're doing what I'm looking for them to do. I thought this was a decent, solid game for him, unremarkable. And how we look at it and say, he didn't really impress. The manager may feel different. it's your lived experience as a manager on the sidelines how are these players making you feel i think norgaard's the same i think uh arteta may be happier with norgaard than perhaps you were uh in watching him because the vibe he was looking for from him like he had a couple of clever passes he was solid and uh you know saliba did a thing and rice did a thing in terms of forming a passing hub i thought norgaard was quite good it was a much better performance than i've seen i think the manager may just be happier with these performances that they're giving him what he wants in terms of a kind of a continue a level of play within the team so i thought it was unremarkable from ethan but i've seen other unremarkable performances from him that i didn't like nearly as much because i didn't think he had the midfield presence and do the things he kind had disappeared i don't think he disappeared in this he just didn't have the moments no and i mean the irony is and you know i love abracia eza but abracia came on played 25 minutes and touched the ball six times yeah six he touched the ball six times he contested no necessarily the game state that you'd bring as on normally like you weren't actually looking to no i know it's just a point that like yeah yeah no i agree he made three passes he took no shots he created no chances he competed in no duels and he had six touches so it's like sometimes that's what the manager wanted from him yeah just go out go out there and you know get your get a few sprints um he didn't do much of that either clive that um i don't think we need much of that but i will simply say that and we've got a long form okay well i was gonna say we're gonna long form podcast on Odegaard coming during the international break that I hope you'll listen to because he's going to be coming back soon and we're going to deep dive on him.

51:30But watching other players play that role is very interesting. It's more Rice playing it than anyone else. As much as I adore him and think he can do brilliantly in the Leo role, hasn't super impressed me in the 8-10 role. I think it's a tricky dynamic there. But you want to add on that, Ethan, on the midfield dynamic, on Eze's six touches?

51:52Elliot:yeah so if you before you when i'm when i'm assessing ethan now i'm assessing the things that i know he needs to work on right so yeah so on the ball when ball comes to his feet i don't think many of us has got too many complaints right he can carry he can dribble he can switch it he can shoot both feet we know he can cross it so we know on the ball is absolutely fine so if you look at him from a player development point of view if he's going to be an interior player his development is off the ball and so from the moment he's selected in this game in this environment with all of those beers running around out there ferocious players looking to kick you to death we're in a battle his game he's now been trusted now you could say if only guard was fit he wouldn't have played etc but he's been trusted he's one of the younger players have been trusted to start so you've got to hold your end up mate off the ball because we're going to be off it in the first phase of this game and you've got to be part of that collective so you've got a shadow mark you've got to press you've got to move you've got to put challenges put jewels in and i thought he did fine i did fine on that respect now if you want to close your eyes and think back to when he's sticking it in bolton's net or preston's net with it last year and all the goals he scored and the last game against brian he had what's how many shots he have five or six shots the last game against brian if i'm a shooting perspective an output perspective in the last third it wasn't so fine but i'm buzzing for him because you need to do that mate you're not going to play for michael arteta unless you can do that off the ball game so that game was a huge game of trust you know in a hostile environment in a part of europe away from home not the emirates when the grass is perfect you can just clip it around the corner without even looking this is a major moment for an 18 year old you know and i think he i think he done brilliant in that regard i've been i was less i was less happy i tell you i said it on on the ir first half against brian mate i i saw i saw walking i saw things like that second half rocket up his backside and he had about a million shots in second half it was really really good that stuff bothers me because you can't do that is it well you can but you won't be playing for arsenal if you do that honestly you can do you can do it honestly mate walk about you can pick your moments when to press you can do that absolutely you do that if you want to and don't think that people are not going to notice and then when it comes to trust you again in the way in europe they're not going to trust you so i thought it's a big day for him where this leads you can say it's body language the kind of walking thing because he does jog he does but like arteta's big on the body it's not just us who would talk about body language arteta is all about what you transmit and i see what you're talking about very much so so it's not the sort of thing i would say unless i've seen the game live and i saw the game live and i was watching and that may not have been on tv and that's okay that's my that's my interpretation he might have been tired he's not playing every minute do you know i mean and he might have just been waiting for his second wind but i just felt there was a bit of a bit of that around but mate after halftime he got fixed in this game now it's not as if it cost him anything he got picked for this game when other young players didn't get picked you know and he was out there doing the business and i was really impressed now where that leads elliot i don't know i don't know i generally don't know but i'm glad he was trusted and not many people not many teams are giving 18 year olds in the center mid that level of responsibility and accountability i can't think of many that are doing that yeah i mean we have to remember it's not that long ago we were losing away at long right and and struggling in a way european matches not just in champions league but sometimes even in the Europa League.

55:37And now we're going away to Slavia Prague and comfortably with a low incident match, dispatching of a team on their pitch with an 18-year-old in the heart of our midfield. And so I think Ethan may suffer from the fact that he came into the team right wing and showed that he can get the ball in his left foot and score from anywhere. And you might say, how do you suffer from that? I think you suffer from that because he has that top of the game go to the stratosphere talent but this position requires different things developmentally and if this were arson wenger i think he'd still be playing on the wing you know arson played aaron ramsey on the ring on the wing for a while right like we we developed players by sending them out on the wing where the game was easier it was easier to see it was easier to focus on the few things you had to know mikhail artette has given ethan the the i would say the respect to play him in the harder position.

56:32And what that's done, Clive, we'll stay with you for a second here, is it's opened up a door for Max Dowman. And that's probably part of the thinking too. And Max Dowman becomes the youngest player ever to play in the Champions League at 15 years, 300 and some odd days. He turned 16 in December. I think December 31st or something exciting like that. But Max Dowman comes on. And you know what jumps out to me about Max Dowman is the physical capacity to compete at this level. And Mikel spoke about that quickly. So I'll just give you this on his Champions League debut. What he's done on the pitch is that he comes in the first ball he takes.

57:08He takes people on. He starts to dribble and gets a foul. That's personality. That's courage that you cannot teach. You have it or you don't. And it doesn't matter what his passport says. You throw him in this context and he's ready to adapt and have a good performance. So I'm really happy with that. And you may ultimately wind up judging this guy and how many shots he gets and dribbles he completes and things like that. But I will point out he was four of six, I believe. Let me just confirm that I am correct on that so people don't yell at me. He was four of six in ground duels, one against a very big physical side.

57:38And at 15 to come in and play against men like that and do that, I think that stands out. So a big moment in Max Dowman's development. But to Mikel's point, Clive, he just looks like he fits at this level.

57:49Elliot:How many times can we say, how many superlatives can we find? because he's just shocking on the eye. It shouldn't be happening. This stuff is like, you know it when you see it. When you see it, everyone can see it. You're not alone. It doesn't belong to you. It belongs to everyone. Your eyes just tell you. You can pick out whatever you find. For me, he plays a game in the future. His intelligence is off the charts. He shouldn't have that level of brain at his age because you learn things through experience. What experience has he had to know what he knows? I don't know. Right? He's coming through.

58:26Elliot:I just don't know how he does it. Right? So, and his balance is shockingly good. Right? So his balance makes him look physical because he can change direction. So speed, endurance, speed, agility. He has speed, agility, and endurance. He can go the distances, but he can cut the angles as well. And he's still growing. Right? So his physical potential is not done. He plays a game in the future. I mean, I'm going to run out of words soon. it's just it's just basically just once a lifetime stuff mate for me i've seen i've said it's the best young player i've seen in my life and let's see where he ends up you know it could be something we're all going to remember for a long time yeah i just want to ask you like i feel like he he does something that i think is unique for a left-footed winger where you see especially at a young age they were always looking to cut in on their strong foot he's very comfortable going touchline, right?

59:21Killing a guy by a dummy or rolling to the touchline. He had one moment in this game where he, I thought he had just put it out for a throw, but somehow it stayed in. He ran outside the touchline, came back in to get it, then was surrounded by three players. So it didn't come to anything, but it's just, he feels very comfortable to me going either direction. And that's something that I feel like develops later. And I'm curious if you, if you think that he's got a nice instinct for using both feet and going towards the byline to the touchline, not just always looking to cut inside on his strong foot.

59:52Elliot:Yeah, the guy's got the lot, I'm afraid. There's nothing to say. There's a picture of him probably about two years ago when he curled one in the top corner of his right foot at the edge of the area. Lucky was his strong foot. You know, one of the first times I noticed him and he's like, uncooled. And he's got the lot. He won't be a winger forever, but that's okay. He's 15, so what do you do with 50-year-olds? You put money outside the pitch where they've got a touchline to help protect them and the position's easier. So you can get a bit of your 360 is not required yet, although he's got it already.

1:00:22Elliot:At youth football, he plays much more in the middle of the pitch on occasions and he does what he likes. So yeah, I'd love to know what his positional development is. I'm sure his parents know and I'm sure he knows and what the plan is for him. He's playing England under-19s at the moment as a 15-year-old, which is unheard of. and who knows where he's going to be in a couple of years time so maybe next year might be in the under 21s who knows i mean it's just incredible what's happening here and just got to watch it develop right and then and try to find new words to describe it as it does develop and avoid doing the thing where if he's not a superstar by 17 you know he's he's already passed it because i think we're starting to lose context with some of these bright young players in the game i think a little of that has even happened with Ethan where the impatience for players to be stars at a young age is distorting our understanding of development and then you see players like Victor Jokeres who only become a star in his mid to late 20s and you see players who develop their game much later and we are Clive we're heading into sort of a dangerous territory with young players where they become superstars at 17 and has-beens by 19 we don't give them any kind of trajectory for development you know yeah i'm not an expert on the yamal story but obviously he's had a fantastic start to his career but i find myself watching him when he does something bad i think oh what's happening there is he falling off and then of course he goes past two people and slots in the bottom corner if you know he's still there and that word you use patience is a really important one that's why it made me think about that patient and not expectations being uh sensible you know who knows what's happening to a young man that's still growing and still developing and still trying to manage the changes in his life which will be on and off the pitch there's going to be down periods and how are we going to be when that happens you know i think it's just important to be patient i think the manager's doing a fantastic job and the first team players are putting their arms around him and i just think it's great long may continue yeah and we should just before we move on from this game give a a bit of a pat on the back to andre harriman and us as well who got on the pitch, got a chance to play in the Champions League.

1:02:43And I think it's really interesting with Mikel Arteta because I don't know if Andre Harman and Usa's future is at Arsenal. It may be, it may not be, but Mikel Arteta very clearly wants to show players who do things the right way, who train the right way, who prepare the right way, that there's a path for them. And we need a striker. And instead of saying, you know what, I'm going to bring, you know, a defender on and play him up front or something, he picks the academy kid and he gives him a Champions League debut. And that is a life moment for Andre Harriman Anous. And again, like I said, he may go on to be a star for Arsenal.

1:03:16I don't know. It's far too early to say to the point we were just making about having patience. But I think Mikel Arteta doing that is sort of part of our philosophy around how the club is operated and how you reward the people that do the right thing. So it's nice to see that. Paul, let's move on and just look ahead to this weekend. And obviously a pivotal moment in the season. You've got the international break coming up. And I think the presumption is that Jokeres and Kai and Odegaard and Nani and all these players we've been without and Martinelli are going to be back for the Spurs game after the international break or thereabouts.

1:03:54So this is the moment we got to get through with these players missing on the weekend that City and Liverpool play each other on Sunday. and if we can beat Sunderland they go into that game both knowing they probably need those three points that that becomes even more important may even impact how they think about preparing for and approaching that game so a critical one of those critical weekends you're going to point to in this season as it goes along I I sometimes worry you'll be surprised to hear that we have gotten so in love with the depth of our squad and so in love with our ability and our capacity to get results without our best players that we've forgotten that football is still fundamentally about the talent of the players you put on the pitch and we've got a lot of talent missing so one more big game to get through the granite shack of derby he's going to be up for it the stadium light is going to be up for it they're off to a fantastic start to their season they did only draw against everton on monday but that's a good side that that is feeling themselves right now and will be excited to measure themselves in a game where they probably won't feel there's anything to lose so how do you expect us to set up for this and and you know what are some of your early expectations for how we approach the match well i mean i guess the good part of things is we're at a stage in the season where the team at this point kind of picks itself so we're our options once again yeah just pick play the fit players hello darkness my old friend so uh yeah there's no you know zupamendi will be back in midfield rice uh probably as a he'll be nicely rested from his his appearance in the champions league game um trossard saka marino up top um you know we might be having a merino conversation after this game about you know win lose or draw probably win um you know how he played how that worked for us it is what it is at the moment um it seems we can get results and it seems this team has a stability about its approach i'm okay about it i think we're going to do okay i think uh we'll lean into the creativity of calafiore i think marino is a smart guy who knows how to um to make space for other players if we're looking for a player to run in behind it could well be calafiore in our attacking line running through past our midfield and into the attacking third uh streaking up the pitch to give us that that joker card and a very interesting juxtaposition of rice versus jacka uh playing the midfields and rice potentially you know the rice discussion um you're seeing interesting parallels with odegaard and you know i can see some of that but what i'm really seeing this season is this thing that Arteta has leaned into in a big way, which is Rice and Calafiore finding their bounds, that space on the left-hand side being a canvas for both of them to paint.

1:07:11And Rice, why is Rice dropping in here? Why is he doing this in this game versus that game? It's the space that Calafiore can find and the success he's having. And then you have the intelligence of Trossard on the left-hand side. and our whole left-hand side is a whole different discussion this season. And on the right-hand side, we don't have Odegaard. So on the right-hand side, Saka, and before him, Nani was 1v1, taking it to whoever the fullback was without lots of players around him, and it's kind of suited both players. Now it suits Saka to get 1v1. But the left-hand side is still evolving, still really interesting, and it's different every game.

1:07:53with, I mean, another player who adapts to the players around him, Zubimendi and Rice. I was fascinated by Clive's mentioning of the word pairs, and I'd love to think about it more and do more around that because Yachoresh, I don't know if you saw that in a recent interview post-game, out of nowhere he said about, I think it was Yachoresh, said something about working in their pairs, and I'm like, what? What's this working in their pairs thing? So it's obviously Clive's onto something here. It was Declan Rice that said it.

1:08:28Elliot:Declan Rice, okay. Yeah, yeah. We did this last year, and I was talking to one of the patrons about it, and we did it for a while, and it really worked. And I actually think, well, what's the difference this year, Paul, is our pairs have maybe upgraded a little bit. And I think they're more multifunctional and more all-course. I think that's why it seems to be working well. but but i know we and is there a phase of play pairs like i see a pairing between rice and califiori i see a pairing between rice and zubimandy for example right exactly yeah i think this is a really good point you've made i think there are certain players that turn a pair into a three so you're free running players so califiori is a nightmare right because he can then join in and go somewhere else and suddenly you've got an overload there by where he arrives into space at the timing of when he arrives in certain spaces.

1:09:22Elliot:Suddenly you've got, rather than two versus two, you've got three versus two. Now what are you going to do? You have to pass him on. Who's the other player that does that really, really well? It's Odegaard. He flows through different phases of the pitch, and he creates twos into threes, and creates a three really, really quickly, just by his movement. And I think this is an aspect of Arsenal which is unfounded yet. Everyone's looking at us from afar, looking at our goals against, looking at our set-piece execution. and i don't know what he's talking about this no one's realizing about our tactical innovation on left hand side of the pitch what we're doing with our fullbacks new favorite toy clive that's what i think califuri is yeah and the character is one example timbers usage is incredible yeah as if mendy's obviously new for everyone they're still working him out mate when odegaard comes back and lays on top of this we're gonna go again we're gonna go again and it's like everyone thinks we're at the this is what we're going to do is this sustainable and we're also trying to say this has only just started this has only just started the firepower is not here yet and when it is here we can start to share minutes and start to share add more tactical layers to this group we're off and running let me ask you about this game specifically Clive because to me there's two things I'm thinking the midfield balance is still a work in progress a little bit.

1:10:45And as I mentioned, I think whoever's playing in that sort of nominal right eight role is still figuring out how to work in those spaces. I don't think Eze is getting on the ball enough in the places he can hurt the opposition. I'm not sure he's always in position, out of possession to stop the counterattacks through the middle. There's a part of me that would like to see Marino, Rice, and Zubamendi in midfield for this game to really dominate that space and shut down the Granite Shaka supply line and then play Eza out left and Leo is the false nine and obviously Marino can go and Leo can drop and they can kind of swap around a little bit and Eza can maybe affect the game in the places where I think he's uniquely talented once he gets the ball on the edge of the final third and can face the goal everybody's terrified of him but to me the strategy here aside from what we do do what we do best in terms of Sunderland everything good they do is done with Granit Shaka he's going to be very up for this game obviously an emotional reunion I think the players love him I think the manager loves him.

1:11:43I think he has great affection for Mikel Arteta. But you got to shut down that supply line. I think that is where if he gets a lot of touches and gets on the ball a lot, it's going to be trouble. Against good teams this season, Sunderland have had like 35 % of the ball. They have not been a team in possession that has had a lot of the ball against the better teams. But no one's really been able to swamp them, to really overwhelm them. They've had some games where they weren't great, but they've done a pretty reasonable job. and I think Granit Xhaka is at the heart of everything good they do. So, Clive, is that— Remember those times when we said Xhaka couldn't pass and he couldn't play from deep?

1:12:19Well, to be fair, Xhaka was always an elite passer, as elite as they come. The issue, I think, with Granit Xhaka— We said he had one pass, though. Well, so the issue with Granit Xhaka that I've always felt, and I still feel this, and this is why I'm bringing it up, I think he is vulnerable to being pressed. I think he can be trapped. I think he's a good pressing trigger. And so that's sort of my question, Clive, is he the pressing trigger for us? Is that a strategy? And would you bring Mikel Marino maybe back into midfield to really crowd him out of the game? Because I think if he's out of the game, they lose their ability to get the ball to some dangerous forwards like Wilson Isidore.

1:12:54Elliot:Yeah, so I just looked at SofaScore, and they've got Trossard as a false nine. I thought it was quite interesting. We all know that front six is going to play, right? So where are they going to stand? So Trossard could play false nine. I think Eze could play false nine. Trossard off the left. I think the key is they play a 5-4-1. I saw a little graphic today saying that Sunderland have one of the lowest defensive lines. So they play from a low base. That means we're going to be closer to their goal. When we're closer to their goal, all bets are off. It's all about who gets into that central area.

1:13:25Elliot:So Marino could play the 10 in this game, but also almost be like the second striker and then arrive late into space. That may suit him. Gives level of physicality in the middle of the pitch. If that works, it's absolutely fine. The forwards might end up being Eze and Saka. in this game. You know, the ones that are first forward getting their shots off. I think the most important thing when you go to these places is to quieten the crowd. The 5.30 on a Saturday, mate, there'll be a few drinks flowing. That's going to be very, very loud. So you've got to shut that lot up immediately. I watched the Everton game on Monday and Everton had them stone cold and should have gone 2-0 up.

1:14:03Elliot:Didn't go 2-0 up and then Sunderland came back in late. And they end the game very, very well. they've got a long number of late goals and i think that's interesting obviously i fear it um but i'm just wanting to control the game get the first couple of goals and go from there to do that elliot your idea of playing marino there might work for the first phase of the game but i also seen granite shack i don't want to dismiss him when you see granite shack are playing against the very very best the way to do it is to out mobilize him do you see what i mean turning him to a spinning top move him around yep get him two years of his physicality when he's in control you can see the game in front of him he can pass as well as anybody in europe you know so you got to get him running side to side stretching we've seen it in the games against city we play for us that's when he gets sent off and cards etc got to get him moving got to get him at his physical limit so i would definitely overload the center midfield you're playing four anyway five four one so we've got to make sure we're strong in there and go from there you had man mark him i know it's not what we do but i would um i just i'd send marino into midfield and i'd say just follow granite shack around he's a dual monster he's going to be hard to get away from i don't think granite shack can be able to escape him in the duels and then that gets the ball to ezza that gets the ball to leo that gets the ball to sack i hope i hope nobody brings out the old recordings of our shaka pods they wouldn't have heard the words we need to mark you he's look he's as good a midfielder on the ball as there is in europe right now in terms of his passing capability i just want to say something see paul went for the short game paul paul doesn't think expansive because he's like we're playing against granita shaka i'll get my little licks in on elliot here a little mention of him undervaluing what paul doesn't realize is i have access to the whole back catalog so this this week on arsenal vision podcast social media is just going to be super cuts of Paul praising Schroder and Mustafi and Pablo Marie just all week.

1:16:00That's all it's going to be. Just super cuts of those takes. You might find one of Clive and Cedric in there

1:16:06Elliot:explaining why he's a good citizen to buy him as a multi-footed fullback. Yeah. You guys talking about Cedric, Pablo, Marie, and Schroder and Mustafi all week. That's all it's going to be. I see I've rattled, Elliot. My head's on Mars, as the kids say. It's beyond Mars, on Venus. But Venus is nicer this time of year. Look, it's a game we should win. But like I said, I think we've gotten too comfortable with this idea of squad depth. We're like, oh, whoever we put out can win a game. That's not how football works. Football is a strong link sport. It is about your best talent. So it needs to be a big sack of game.

1:16:39He's been managing his way through games. It needs to be a big Declan Rice game, right? It needs to be a big game for Ezza to find a way to get on the ball in these small spaces that he excels at the top of the box. He did win us the game against Palace. Maybe he can get us going in this game. You know, I do think he was unlucky not to score early in the Newcastle game. He's been good at getting shots in dangerous positions when we find a way to get him the ball. We should prioritize getting him the ball in those positions. You know, that's sort of my thought there. So we'll see what happens, and do we expect surprises?

1:17:11Could there be a Kai Haverture and Nani Meduake on the bench? You know, maybe. I think Yoko Ress will miss this game, but I think he's back for the North London Derby. So let's put it this way. the season gets real serious after the international break it's the derby it's byron it's chelsea this is the pivotal swing moment in the season that we need to execute on we go first city and liverpool go second we'll have an instant reaction after this game we'll find that clive tomorrow we'll probably have a pod right after the city and liverpool game as well depending on whether it warrants it so uh clive thank you very much thank you very much thank you very much I said it first and to the pod's resident Pablo Marie admirer Paul thank you for joining us you're so rattled I am rattled I'm having a breakdown thank you guys for being a part of this nonsense we love you very very much big big weekend ahead more of a chance to climb the table let's think about our standards they dropped a little in midweek we did concede a shot on target if we can get rid of that I think we'll be back to our absolute best.

1:18:16We love you. And we will talk to you at Personal Tense. Until then.