The Big Madueke Debate (and More Transfer Nonsense)

34:54Is this a bit of an over-consolidation of power in the manager? Is this just what happens with every manager? And is he putting a lot of faith in his own coaching ability, which is sometimes a trap coaches can fall into? I think every manager will have players that they like and think they can get a tune out of. But if you think he genuinely has too much power at the club, then why do we employ other people? What is the point of having a sporting director? What is the point of having a scouting team, a recruitment team? What is the point of having any of these guys at the club if Arteta is just going to go, yes, I want him and let's get him.

35:31There will obviously have been thousands of pages of PDFs of stats, deep dives of positional information of his background. As soon as Arteta says, I want that player, there are thousands of different things to consider. And I'm sure all the various teams at the club, whether you're a tangible number guy or a people guy, you would have done your research. And for me, that's just a crazy statement because I'm sure that Arteta does have some influence at the club because he's the manager, you know, so he's well within his rights to recommend players, to want players, to identify players. but then it doesn't mean that every time he does it they're just going to say yes sir you know i you know that there's no great rush to appease the great the great arteta you know he's just he's just there doing his job and finding players that he likes so would madueke be a player that i identified no but they've obviously seen something in him collectively as a group that feels worthy of spending however however much we we want to spend whether that's 30 40 50 i don't know where we're going to end up um it sounds like towards the higher bracket of the deal but you know it's it's just I I can't get behind the the idea that he's got too much power at the club because he should have power but also I I trust the people around him enough to say you know maybe I don't have total and entire belief in this player but there is a sneaky suspicion of mine that they're almost going signing for signing because obviously Berta might have been pushing for Giocares and And then Arteta might have been pushing for Maduweke.

37:06And they said, well, let's meet in the middle and see what happens. We get one each and we'll see at the end of the year. We'll see who the fans hate most. Yeah, exactly. It's your head on the spike, mate. So that's how I see it. I don't think he's this overruling, sovereign figure at the club. I just think he holds an influence. And it's up to the people around him to say yes or no, or we agree or we don't agree. And judge those pros and cons together. I hope so anyway. If there's anything else happening, I'd be a little bit worried, but I don't believe that. I think a successful club is one where the manager wields a tremendous amount of influence, especially over footballing decisions like which players to bring in, but where there is a collaborative process that involves people who he trusts and respects enough to listen to them.

37:51We know that's clearly happening here because I don't think Mikel Arteta's first choice, as you rightly point out, is Victor Jokeres. so I think it is a case of Andrea Berta has had influence over Mikel and they've collaborated and they've reached a decision on something that can get done and get done in the time frame they want on a player that probably wasn't Mikel's first option and this may be a case of Mikel saying I like this player here's the vision I see for him the team have run the data we do know that a lot of very data literate people seem to really like Nani Medueke that there are some things out there that suggest he's undervalued, not price him in undervalued, but underappreciated in popular perception.

38:28And so I don't think the process is breaking down here. You know what I mean? I do think he has a, I want to save them kind of mentality to his coaching, but he's a coach and Clive will know about this. You want to fix people. You know, if you see talent, yeah, that's it. So I think it's - Clive still wants us to sign Mudrick. But that's a great example. No, I did not. Never.

38:52Elliot:yes you did i remember seeing you on a podcast mate yeah that's a great example it's a great example of somebody i was that player sesco and your career probably the most youtube clips i ever watched in my life and i got to a point i can't wait to get this player in Madrid what good player he'll be but at that time it was 30 something and then it went up and he went up and it went up and then the end of oh my god what's happening here right so and chelsea jumped in right so um so yeah i'm going back to where you started earlier i want michael arteta to have influence because what i don't want is people saying well did arteta buy that player even when we lose again that's far worse i want to have influence because i want to have total influence and get all the players that he wants and if it works great if it doesn't work we can all say well actually that's this is why you know so for me i want the influence like um you know this is why i feel a little bit embarrassed actually because if we ever saw the data they've probably got on this player it'll probably it'll probably shock us they're probably metrics that we can't even imagine you know the publicly available stuff that we see is great in the world but i would love to see what they see you know honestly i bet it's like out there something crazy you know it would just be amazing you don't make these decisions just to upset people you don't make decisions i i honestly think you know i can remember seeing i'm gonna bring his name up now right just because things change when you see people i remember when um obviously laminya mal came into fruition at barcelona and they had rafinha i thought what are they gonna do with rafinha they're moving to the left-hand side look what happened you know he's right near the ballon door he's a flyaway runner with a left foot crashing shot what if we do something like that with malo weke what if we turn him into something like that straight lines on your strong foot suddenly you look different don't look as awkward but it becomes an option with something we don't have today we literally don't have it you know we can't play even out there that's not him he's a small space really tidy feet player with a shot primarily on from the right hand side of the pitch that's what i've seen so far you can cross on the inside channels on on the left eight but i don't think that's what he's going to be and so we need that right so we need to mature that so i'm open to that evolution i really am i just we need we talked about processes here but we don't have no visibility of them we're just taking reports and saying your crazy's burtas guy and it may have a hint of truth in it you know i think what we can say based on really good reporting is that they bring a lot of players to the table and then decide which direction they're going to go you know and i think that's a group effort thing and that's what i want that's what i want to believe that it's a team full of data people scouting people people do background checks etc and they come to this they come to this position and then they take it up to the board and they decide it's worth to spend we sat here and we didn't go for the 65 minute volley walkings in january that tells me we've got our best robust processes in the club to say that wasn't a good value proposition at that time we didn't like it because we wanted our striker but we know there are processes in place so i i'm i'm okay with it i kid it i'm okay with it right now on this date let's see what we end up with you know this is that's the key in this what are we going to end up with i think there's a question whether fan sentiment should matter?

42:29Should it matter that fans really want Eze and would love it? And a lot of fans really don't want Meduake and would really hate it. And I'll level with you. I don't think fan sentiment should matter. And the reason is fan sentiment lasts as long as the first good performance in the Arsenal shirt. That's how long it lasts. When he scores the winner at Old Trafford on the opening day and runs off to celebrate with the away fans, he's one of us from that moment. And I'll give you the perfect example. I remember when we were linked with Aaron Ramsdale and people were outraged. We weren't very good at that time.

43:05Now we're trying to buy a keeper from a relegated team, a twice relegated keeper. What are we doing? Hate this move. This club doesn't know what it's doing. Everybody's an idiot. Six months later, he's a fan favorite and such a fan favorite that then when we decide to upgrade on him, people are outraged that we're pushing him out of the club. so fan sentiment is important because we are the club but it's so malleable and changeable over such a short period of time that i don't think it should matter obviously in the decision the club makes because here's the funny thing we could sign ese and two stinkers into his season people are going to be going we passed up on rodrigo for this what we think so you know i love that we're passionate because that's how football matters.

43:48But I don't think that what we think should drive the decision making, as long as the process looks good. And I'll level with you, whatever I think of the player, and I have been clear, this isn't a player I would go for. And this isn't necessarily a deal I like. But he's a 23 year old with tremendous physical tools. And aesthetically, he's not great. And there's some questions about some behavioral stuff. You know, he's a little out there in terms of social media behavior and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, he's a tremendously physically talented 23-year-old that's played at the top level of the Premier League.

44:19If the price is right, that's a player you have to at least give the club a chance to go get and see how it works out. We got to talk about a lot of other stuff. We got to talk about Eze and Rodrigo and Gabriel Heinz joining the coaching ranks, and we have to talk about Norgard, who we actually signed and announced. And all of that pales in significance to telling you how to run an e-commerce business. Because if I don't do that, what if you run the wrong e-commerce business? What if you run a bad e-commerce business? And then on my deathbed, I'll be there and going, people failed at e-commerce because I didn't tell them about Shopify.

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45:21If you can decide what pictures to upload and what descriptions to write, Shopify can literally even find you the products to sell. It can do it all. It can help you with your supply chain. Business term. It can do all of that and give you the analytics to understand how your business is performing. but most importantly, it lets you focus on what you're good at. And it focuses on the e-commerce. And so on your dying bed, on your deathbed, you go, my life was a success because of Shopify. See? See how we turned that around? The story became a happy story of you dying a successful e-commerce titan of industry.

45:59Established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash arsenalvisionalllowercase. Shopify.com slash

46:12is that enough of that indeed Phil I hope your next ad read on the football vision pod is just like that my friend all that reminded me of was that Benzema tweet when it was like to Elliot's followers he passed away last night and his last word was Shopify make of that what you will this is his wife Babs yeah

46:37um okay clive uh can i ask you just a super quick question that i don't want to go deep on question that doesn't mean well we just um because we don't we don't have a ton of of time to spend on things that aren't transfer related it is okay july but you know for the record but um gabriele linesa you have any quick thoughts on that i have to admit this is an appointment that makes total sense because he was a mentor to arteta and he's a huge close friend of arteta But in terms of the dynamic in the group, it's a big shift. He is a madman. Just watch the YouTube comps of him going nuts on the touchline.

47:09There are reports at Atlanta United that he trained the players to death in violation of their collectively bargained agreement on training. You're losing a Carlos Cuesta who was the player's coach, the conduit for transmitting Arteta's message to the players in a way that they could hear. And now you're getting a guy who's completely nuts, but, you know, who Arteta trusts and really has a close relationship with. So do you have any quick thoughts on Cuesta out, Heinze in, and how that might change the dynamic in the group?

47:36Elliot:Yeah, I think Cuesta started off as an individual coach, didn't he, Arsenal? He's only about 27 when he was doing that, no surprise. He can't be holding group to that age. He started out, he learned to read, and he was a coach. Those are the two things he had to do when he was seven years old. And as Steve Brown moved on, he went probably more into sort of group training, I'm guessing, you know? And so he just developed. You don't get to be a manager of a Serie A club just by being an individual coach and a nice speaker, right? So he's obviously developed under Arteta's wing. So I think what I do find interesting, Elliot, we're going back to your earlier question about Arteta having too much authority.

48:17Elliot:It's quite interesting. Two of the main people that's coming in, Berta and Heinzer. Well, they are not little flowers, are they? They are super intense workaholic machines. that want to win he's almost surrounding himself with people like him so if you want a nice easy life you keep them keep the nice people right you keep them around you just everyone says yes yes yes yes he is almost like he wants to challenge he doesn't want to be the cleverest person in the room he wants to turn if you want to get better that's exactly what you want how you're going to learn how you're going to develop right who's going to develop him eddie's moved away i think that relationship maybe it's already out of date but has come in more wisdom ryan's is coming he's older more wisdom you know i think it's good that's how you learn that's how you develop right the players now the most important thing relationship to the players not relationship to me relationship to the players maybe the relationship to harvard webb probably gonna be quite important but um but i'm glad we're bringing in experience we're trying to win this stuff right we're trying to we're trying to win by doing the same stuff hasn't quite got to say i'm not saying i'm blaming the people that have left but it hasn't quite got to say so we're trying to win so what do you do you have your lessons learned meaning and you change things and you try to get better that's what they're doing yeah um phil do you want to go quick on that because like i said i i don't think it needs to be discussed much in part because i just don't think we have enough visibility to these kinds of things to speak to it accurately.

49:50It's like injuries for me. One of those things that if you go too deep talking about it, you're well out of your depth in terms of what information is even available to you. But do you have quick thoughts on Heintz? I would just point anyone to read up on some of the funny track record he had in MLS because it's not the best reading, but it also could mean absolutely nothing. Yeah. Honestly, I don't know too much about him. I know that he had a very impressive playing career he did manage as well for a few teams and actually despite his kind of spiky uh aggressive exterior he was actually quite an ambitious coach um quite an attack-minded coach he compared his football to Marcelo Bielsa or he took a lot of inspiration from Marcelo Bielsa obviously not to the same effect we all know that it was a pretty disastrous time at um atlanta united was it where he was kind of sacked very quickly after eight defeats in a row or something silly but you know I think he's he's a personable guy but a very driven and committed person which I think is what is what Arteta is you know quite intense wants to achieve their goals he's very keen on discipline and culture and and how you hold yourself and stuff like that so I think a lot of those views align with with Arteta and what he wants but also I don't think there's a there's any issue of him not wanting to to disagree or argue with him I think he'll want to get his point across where he wants to so I think it's good change change is important in football I whether it's your your playing staff or your coaching staff or whoever sporting directors CEOs it could be anyone but I just think fresh perspectives and motivations can really help a group and considering where we've ended up in the last few years just just falling short um maybe this is just another thing to to kind of consider when it comes to the mental side of things because tactically and physically, I really think we're close, but maybe just an added perspective somewhere could make a difference.

51:44Okay. That's enough of that. Let's talk transfer again. Gosh. I wasn't even listening for it.

51:52Elliot:I thought it was great. No, honestly, didn't hear any of it. All I heard was Eze Rodrigo, Eze Rodrigo, Eze Rodrigo, Eze Rodrigo. So let's talk about Norgard. Phil, I'll stay with you just for a second. we've rebuilt our entire midfield in one window party in georginio out norgaard and zubamendi in i can't decide if i think norgaard is just the safety option to have an experienced leader in the dressing room who plays on the rare occasion he's needed or if he can give more than that because candidly to listen to mike from the ealing road podcast talk about it this is one of their most important players in a very good premier league side and he has a lot of good football left in him, according to them.

52:34Is this a guy who's going to play the 700 Jorginho minutes, or could we maybe be underestimating just how valuable he could be to us? I think he's coming in to do the Jorginho thing. What Jorginho did for us two and a half years ago, he's coming in to be that guy. I really don't think there's a need to overthink this deal. I think Arsenal can bolster their midfield depth with a proven Premier League player for relatively little spend. I think Brentford had a chance to get a decent fee for a player. They could send him off after six good years of service. The player himself earns a good opportunity to play at a higher level and win things that maybe that wouldn't have been available before.

53:13I think it's fine. He's very combative. He's very aggressive. He leads by example. I know Thomas Frank spoke of him very highly in terms of how he manages himself and others around him on the pitch and off the pitch which I think Arteta will appreciate and also there was a big void to fill when we lost Jorginho and Partey that is a lot of experience a lot of know-how to lose right and I think obviously the argument is can we go younger can we bring in someone who's a bit younger that can develop and maybe hold a resale value moving forward but I think this is absolutely perfect he's still 31 so that's three three potential years left in him at Arsenal maybe even more if he's like Fernandinho levels of successful but look at his defensive numbers they're outstanding look at his physical metrics they're always in the top 10 top 20 in the league so he's still got lots to do lots to play for I think he'll play more than than 700 minutes then you know basically what Jorginho offered us last year I'm happy no fuss two players out two players in job done I really don't have anything else to say about it it's just very sensible we really don't need to overanalyze it is my opinion.

54:29I'm sort of of the same opinion except football is weird. And I think Zubomendi is a wonderful player, but he's coming into a new league, new physical demands, getting used to that extra half yard that's not there anymore. You saw Marino struggle with it. Marino's a dual monster who came into the Premier League and suddenly everything was a half yard closer to him. And he looked slow at first. And I think he picked up the tempo ironically. once he started to play as a striker. And then you saw that he started to come to terms with the tempo of the Premier League. But I don't think it's outrageous to believe that Norgard might be a very important player at the start of the season to help Zubimendi integrate without all the pressure of playing every game at Premier League tempo right away.

55:15Especially, are you going to put Zubimendi into the cauldron of Old Trafford? I mean, United stink, I get it. But opening day, like... Why not? You know, Christian Norgaard has gone into Old Trafford and won games there. I'm saying that as a presumption. I don't know if Brentford won there, but I just assume because everybody has. Everybody's won there. I'm probably safe. But you know what I mean? So, Clive, do you think that there is a possibility that, you know, maybe it's opening day, maybe it's not, but the point that, like, a guy who's been to these stadiums and won in these stadiums and knows what the tempo is like might be a really useful guy to have so that Zubomendi doesn't feel like he has to step in and immediately be one of the best central midfielders in the Premier League from day one?

55:53Or is he just good enough that he'll do that? I'm overthinking it.

55:56Elliot:Yeah, I think it's just an easy signing. I think it's a very smart signing. Obviously, the data on him is really good. As soon as you get presented with the name, you say, oh, he's actually quite good. He's interceptions and tackles. He's right up there. And I think we have a lot of Brentford in our style, funny enough. You know, Jamie Carragher sort of said, I still turn into Stoke. Mate, just say Brentford. you know that's the what we how we focus on set pieces our goalkeeper delivery into wide areas into a striker over the top of the press that nearly got us to the Champions League final by the way by beating the PSG press and so we have a lot of Brentford about us in our play style I think they're a fantastic club what they've achieved and so he just he just steps in there and does that job I think um we have this young player that's come in with one of the best in number six in the world every time you see him on the international stage he looks absolutely fantastic well not every game in the Premier League is like the international stage and and some games may not suit him for the full 90 and so you have somebody to come in and rob holding it late in the game we drew 14 games I don't know how many last season I don't know how many from when we were leading you know and um probably seven or eight I believe top of my head yeah to fix that didn't we so how do you fix that you have a you have the rob holding type player in the middle of the pitch that says enough of that you lot you're not coming through here you know what i mean can i can i add something on that because someone messaged me earlier on twitter tor jensen i think is how you pronounce his name and he says from a danish perspective one of nor god's qualities that will benefit arsenal is that he's an excellent substitute he's won 18 out of his 35 denmark caps coming from the bench and he's frequently been able to change the game for us through dictating the tempo of the game.

57:39So it's kind of exactly what you said.

57:41Elliot:I was exactly, you know, controlling a game. There's 14 draws. I was going to have a chat with Scott about this to analyse those 14 draws because that's a lot of what we're trying to fix here. Do you know what I mean? Because that's a lot of points. We only lost four games last year. Of those four games, some of those didn't deserve to lose. Do you know what I mean? So 10 men, etc. So yeah, it's the draws we have to manage. you know striking and holding you know i mean that's what you need to to fix so i'm comfortable with him well also i was going to say i mean i'm not sure i'm not sure how much he plays to denmark but there's some big international breaks next year and we've got some big players in our squad that have got some big games trying to get into world cup squads and they're going to be coming back from those international breaks and we may have to have a different view on a saturday morning thank you BT Sport for a game do you see what I mean and suddenly someone who hasn't had big international minutes will be really valuable in that game that's a good point you know so so we look at Supermendy you know Rodri's not at his best yet quite rightly after an ACL when Spain play he's going to play do you know what I mean and when we come back from those games we're going to need we're going to need to look after him right so back to what you know it's a squad game don't stress too much just make sure they're all good enough because you know what i don't want to have mate if i'm honest yeah where i sit on the emirates i sit right where the subs warm up and there's many many a time i've seen four left backs warm up on that sideline and that's not not good mate it's not good i'm gonna come reno center forward so we're trying to fix this stuff aren't we so yeah it's all good yeah i think i like this group that we built with Zubimendi and Norgard.

59:30It is definitely a weird situation to go into where you don't have anyone to play central midfield who's played a minute of central midfield before for you going into a season. So we're going to learn a lot. One of the things that's kind of fun, just as a podcaster, speaking on behalf of all the podcasters listening, which is probably like 90 % of the listeners at this point, given the number of Arsenal podcasts, but like we've got a lot of new stuff to discuss this season. When the games actually kick off, when the ball starts rolling on the grass, we're going to have a new striker. We're probably going to have a new left wing and right wing and two new central midfielders.

1:00:00It's going to be exciting, you know? And we've needed it. Until the first game we don't win, and then it'll be a crisis and everyone needs to go. Okay, so let's get back to the rumor mill. Eze and Rodrigo. I love Eze. I think early in the window, I was leaning more towards Rodrigo if it had to be one or the other. And the reason is he's younger. He's just six months older than Martinelli. By the way, in a previous pod, I said he was younger than Martinelli. I got my June and January mixed up. Rodrigo born in January, Martinelli in June. So he's six months older than Martinelli. When he played off the left for Madrid, his metrics and his video, excellent, excellent.

1:00:39Rodrigo's coming off a down season. We played off the right in a largely dysfunctional Madrid team and something by their standards anyway, trying to integrate superstars in Mbappe and Jude and Vinny, you know, and really taking a backseat to that. There are rumors that there are work ethic issues there. And I have to say, when a club hates a player, you start to wonder why do they hate him so much and like no one hates anyone as much as shabby alonzo hates rodrigo that's what i'm convinced of uh he didn't get off the bench in the three nil i want to be a four nil thrashing at the hands of psg the other day they were three nil down before i could even get the fop mob app open and they got thrashed and he didn't get off the bench and when asked whether it was related to his future shabby alonzo said nope just a technical decision.

1:01:21In other words, no, the player's just shit and I don't trust him. It has not been a good summer. The rumor's now where they want him to go. Phil, I can't help it. Them hating him so much is leaking into my brain. Going into the summer, it was clear to me. Get the 24-year-old who's very, very talented, off a down season, but with the pedigree. We've done well with this with Ozil and Odegaard, and you get this guy and he's going to come in with a lot to prove and play off the left where he's great and he's just going to take us to the next level. But they hate him so much now like now i'm like well i do love ese um do you have a strong lean they don't hate him neither do it's the same with chelsea and madueke they want him out the door because he's a sellable asset okay can i just clarify one thing just one thing real quick yes they absolutely straight hate the guy they hate him with every fiber they're being please carry that's very real madrid uh online of you um yeah so he's a sellable asset and they're not going to sell vinicius they're not going to sell Mbappe so who's the next guy in line unfortunately for for Rodrigo it's him because they've got Arda Goulet they've got Franco Mastantuono they've just signed Dean Housen they're about to sign Alvaro Carreras from from Benfica so that's a big outlay exactly so there's a lot of a lot of money there to recoup and he's the obvious sale right so So whether or not teams want to meet the reported 90 million price tag is one thing, but he is the clear candidate for sale.

1:02:48And I think there is a potential opportunity there for Arsenal or even City or Liverpool or whoever to come in and steal in. I still think he's an outstanding player. But if we do sign Madueke, for me, I don't see the need to have both of them. I see that unless we lose somebody. If we lose a Martinelli or a Trossard, then the dynamic changes. but if things stay as they are plus a madueke i think it's more important to have the central threat that sa offers plus the wide threat that he offers as well see phil when i was 20 and i bought my volkswagen jetta i was like there's no need for me to get the ferrari because i have the jetta now so you know it's the same thing if you have nani madueke what the hell do you need rodrigo for um absolutely um so yeah that's kind of how i see i think sa offers us offers us a little bit something special something special in central areas that ability to carry the ball I think he takes shots I think he's a little bit different to a Declan Rice or Mikel Marino who normally typically play in the number eight position he plays it differently to Erdegaard as well who's a lot more close space one two scooped passes over the top whereas Eze is a lot more I'm going to run through you kind of Morgan Rodgers style and and and whack shots basically so I just think his profile is more exciting and different for us.

1:04:09Whereas Rodrigo, if we signed him, it would just be another really good wide player who can play on both sides, scores a few goals, but do we need another one without sales? I just don't think so. Clive, did you see how he handled that? So he saw my facial expression. He saw there's a dumb joke coming. I'm going to pause. I'll let Elliot say whatever ridiculous shit he's got teed up. And then I'll go back to the serious analysis. It was just so smooth and so well handled. Thank Thank you. It's not my first time on this podcast. I would have taken a pity laugh, but it's fine. It's not like my ego's at stake here.

1:04:42Clive, how about that? Do you agree with what Phil has said? I mean, you know I love Eze. I have to admit, if we got him, I'd be super fascinated to see what the domino effects are of where he plays. Does he just become a left-wing option? Does he sometimes play left eight and Rice moves back or Rice moves over or Odegaard comes out. There's so many interesting possible ways you'd use an Eze unless we're just galaxy braining it and he'd be converted to a left wide forward, which he's done for England as well, by the way. So what do you think of Phil's points and where an Eze might fit in versus the more natural, I'd say, fit of Rodrigo at left wing?

1:05:19Elliot:Yeah, I think he's a harder fit for us, but actually turn that around. Maybe that's what we need. If we have the others that have those positions sorted out, you have sprinters in wide areas on both sides and martin nelly stays which i'd really hope he does stay i think the trust side essay thing i link that in my mind if i'm honest with you um i link that sort of player that sort of more creative wide man who can drop inside into a 10 second striker type thing i have those two linked but um i think as i said to you earlier this week i think it'll be a nice present to the fans that signing to bring some joy back to the timelines shall we say you know to see somebody who obviously wants to be here would suit our club down to the ground it's the right time in his career he's done his job for palace they've won their first trophy in history he scored the winning goals all the way through to the final almost it felt like beautiful story i want to see it happen i almost don't care about a tactical fit the emotional fit is perfect and last time i looked when i sit in that stadiums and i'm three pints deep you see the emotions I care about, and the players on the pitch and what they can do for me and how I feel about them.

1:06:27Elliot:You know, I just want him to be there and we'll work it out later. I don't want him to cost anybody. I want to make sure Ethan feels confident that he's going to get playing time. That's really important. You spend 10 years developing that player, not to just fancy a 27-year-old and then stop his career. I want to make sure that he has room to develop. That means he's got to be a left-hand side or a number 10 option on occasions, whether start or finishing at games. And we just had the season of watching our skipper have a really tough year. A really tough year. And what did it cost us? It cost us quite a lot.

1:07:04Elliot:Where people were saying, we've lost central creativity, we don't fill those spaces, blah, blah, blah. Not going to listen to that and then say, well, let's do nothing about that then, should we? Or should we get somebody that travels into those areas, receives a ball, got a really strong body to roll off people and bang shots. Yeah, mate, where do I sign up for that? Don't know where he's going to play, don't care. It's how he connects to other players. He's on their IQ level. I absolutely believe he is. And he'll only benefit us. And I don't like looking back in my football, but a lot of us remember 2008 Arsenal, lots of creative number eights, number 10s in our team.

1:07:43Elliot:And that team didn't win anything, but we all remember it. because it's beautiful to watch. And that's what the game is. So let's get back to that. Can I stay with you, Clive, for just one second and ask a question that I hope people don't regard this as me worrying because I don't do that. What? Why the laughter? But I think it's at least worth asking, is there any aspect of the essay links that would lead you to think there are some lingering, even minor concerns about Odegaard, either his physical recovery or returning to the level of the prior couple of seasons. Because look, Odegaard was rightly one of the, named as and considered one of the best players in the Premier League full stop the season before last.

1:08:32This past season, when he came back from injury, he never hit the level. He had, I think he was improving a bit, but he never hit the level that we know he had in him. And I just wonder if the SA links could be almost an insurance policy against any concern that Odegaard might struggle to return to that level do you think there's any of that here or is that just putting two and two

1:08:55Elliot:together getting 22 uh probably yeah it's what we do right is that we worry about things and um you know I do yeah and uh I just want to see us push each other you know I want to see us on a podcast pre a game trying to pick the 11 and we can't pick it and we're arguing about the last game that we saw that went so well and a player came on and scored two goals but is he going to start the next game i don't want to be worrying about um if michael marino is fit enough to play a game of football up front that's not fair on him and that's not where we should be i don't really want to be seeing kieran tini come on against ruinted in the champions league quarter final as a left winger you know this is the stuff i need to fix in my head you know and um and then that's my priority and you know what we're an elite football club playing at the elite competition in the world last in the champion league last year we came third out of 36 so we're right at the top day we got to the semi-final one of the best four teams in europe and basically our xg the winners that everyone's oologizing over we didn't have enough firepower did have enough in our locker and so you have to look at that and say i don't really care anymore about somebody i need to create competition and a competitive nature top end of this piece because everyone wants to be here i saw the christian norgaard interview today and he's 31 and his chief executive spoke about said he deserves this move he deserves a chance to go and win trophies we're so focused about the top for and where we are there's a whole professional game trying to get to this top end level and even at 31 he's arrived here at the elite level i'm so pleased for him he can have a chance to compete cares about his minutes he's right there turning up on our coach with our people with our fans much bigger entity traveling around europe champions league music mate that's what everybody wants right and if they don't look at the play well then they won't play but last year we couldn't say that didn't play well we're just hoping they'll be okay on saturday you see what i mean we need to fix that's what we're trying to fix earlier i'm really adamant about this we just need to change our mindsets you know it's a different game now it really is any quick words to add back to that phil before we go to our last quick question i have for you here not really i I think that was it.

1:11:23It was a really nice interview, actually. If you haven't seen it, anybody listening, it was really good. He spoke really well, and he said it was a dream come true to be at Arsenal. So I think you can't underestimate the power of wanting to be somewhere because I think that can give you an extra 5 % or 10 % when maybe your expectations of people might not be so high. Yeah. One thing, Phil, I wanted to ask you about is Saka's role. maybe I'm squinting to see it but um last season towards the end Saka seemed like he was occupying some more central locations than we've seen before yeah and I just sort of wonder if we might see Mikau play with that at times and if Meduake comes in could you see Saka and Meduake at times play together where Saka does start to take a full-time role as a more central player I'll confess, I actually don't see that and don't even necessarily like that because I think it means he has to work even harder at times and do a role that doesn't just let him get the ball and beat a man and influence the game in the final third.

1:12:27But it's a question that I've seen out there. Could Saka start to occupy more central locations? Could he move inside? Do you think that's something that could happen? what i hope is that we provide him with enough support and we put enough threat in the team to get him off the touchline away from four defenders who are constantly around him because i think you're right we did see it towards the end of the year last year um popping up around the edge of the area i mean we all remember that real madrid game the declan rice free kicks how did he win the first one you know he came inside off of the left back drove into the central space and they and they were worried they were scared so they fouled him I think it was David Alaba who fouled him you know he is so dangerous in any area of the pitch and actually when he first broke through my initial thought about his ceiling was that he would be a kind of Angel Di Maria style number eight um I don't know if you remember how he played for Carlo Ancelotti in 2014 in that kind of box-to-box role I really saw him a little too young but tell me it happens man don't worry about it um i could tell you i could tell you know yeah so so that's what he reminded me of and i thought he would end up being somebody like that but now i just think his game is so polished on the wing that he will primarily be be occupying those areas with the typical ben white overlaps with the odegaard uh link coming close to him but of course if we're against the deep block at home in need of a goal why can't he come off the touchline why can't he be on the edge of the area you know I think he's got more than enough capability to to link to shoot to to pull players away from him which could free others as well in a different moment but I don't think he'll be starting centrally no.

1:14:08Clive do you want to add to that?

1:14:09Elliot:Yeah the day Saka gets into the 10 I think it'd be wonderful I just don't think we need to do it in our current group of our current construct you've got players queuing up in that area that's maybe a reason why Nathan's not signed yet. We're about to buy a centre-forward. What's Kai's second-best position? It's probably right in that slot. And the third-best position is on the other side where Decan Rice is playing. So that's a worry because it's a senior player in the group. And so, again, it's all about the options, isn't it? And when you're there and you're watching a game, it's quite clear what you need to change.

1:14:42Elliot:And the biggest fear you have is when you turn around and it is Nathan Butler or Deji, and you can't change it. You know, that's the biggest fear, not the fear of, oh, I wonder if they could all fit in. I honestly don't care, right? I don't care because what I do care about is watching loads of different TV shows saying Arsenal are always going to come second, Netflix FC, blah, blah, blah. If I'm anyone near the club, I'm thinking we need to fix this shit. We need to sort this out and at least give us the tools to achieve and not hold back a little bit. and I think we did last year, maybe good reason for it, PSR-wise, et cetera.

1:15:24Elliot:But if you're going to show that sort of fiscal discipline in January and in the summer, that's another story. If you're going to do that, then come the moment in the summer, do your work. It seems as though we're doing that. My biggest fear when I turn around is that there's a giant spider behind me. I think we should leave it there. I don't know that there's much else to cover today, and it is one of these things. I'm always nervous that I'm going to hit stop record. I'm going to open up a browser and see Arsenal have signed this random player. We didn't even know we were linked with him. If only there was another way for you to talk about transfers earlier.

1:15:58Well, there will be a transfer daily coming later today. You're not going to want to miss it. And tomorrow, Friday Night Clive will have a special celebrity guest appearance. You're not going to want to miss that. So come join us. Come be with us. We want to be with you. Come be with us. And then we can be together. It'd be a beautiful thing because we love you. Phil, love you. Thanks for being on. Maybe the real Madueke was the pods we made along the way. Check Phil out on the Football Vision podcast where you'll get more of that kind of stuff. And Football Vision is doing their own transfer stuff, but they're doing, get this, look, I'm not saying I get it, but they're doing analysis instead of whatever the hell I do on the Transfer Daily is.

1:16:43Clive, always a pleasure, my friend. Talk to you tomorrow on Friday night, Clive. Thank you very much. Friday night Clive starring Clive okay my name is Elliot Smith block me everywhere we love you people you're just the best people the prettiest most handsome youngest virile intelligent people and we just generally appreciate you and want good things for you which means Ezay and Rodrigo Nani out I'm kidding we love you and we'll talk to you after ourselves and we'll talk to you we'll don't know

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