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39:00We've got to get rid of him. We paid too much. His wages are too much, blah, blah, blah. I say it now. There will be nothing in the comments, he says, in knowing there's going to be somebody. You're asking for something, Clive, yeah. But sometimes you learn about someone when they're not there and they come back and you go, oh, okay, now I see. Now I really see it. you know, and so yeah, I just think he's super important, but what else? And this is it, because before, even two months ago, I said, he would have been the first centre forward, him and Jokic would have shared the game depending on what game he wanted to play, what game plan it was.

39:38Jesus, I didn't think was going to be part of this group, but I'm glad he is. And now I'm thinking, oh, what is Havertz going to be? For me, he's just going to be that guy we put on, whether he's up front whether he's one behind I don't think it changes his game much it maybe changes our setup and all of us want to see him on the pitch when it really really counts in those big games potentially we're going to have to play Man City four times coming up and I can't just thinking about that for a second it's not just the potential four games definitely I've played them twice but it's almost the impact of those games emotionally and also the game afterwards what you do when you play those games because they take more out of you the people that understand the game the tactical change of the game that can deliver in the biggest games like kai havertz i mean and also make us all feel more comfortable because if you look at the leeds game again when he started which we all agree that was the right front two to start and where we play the game the physical game if you look at his touches and what he actually did it wasn't that much but we'd have argued anybody that said he played rubbish.

40:47Do you see what I mean? Because we felt his impact on the pitch. And I think that impact across the team, how we look, where we can go, how we can control momentums of the game, that's an intangible that we really feel as Arsenal watchers because we know when that's not there. You know, so we know how important he is. Every time he plays, just get a little chair, lift him into the dressing room, then lift him into his car and make sure there's someone that lift him into his house. I don't want to do another unnecessary step that doesn't involve playing for Arsenal being on the grass but it really really matters because I think he's key to all of our joy shall we say Tim a quick word on Kai and how he took that goal what were you thinking when he was running through there were you confident or thinking square it Martinelli's right there um no chance yeah no no no I mean I think when the game slows down and when the moment slows down you know some people when they finish they need it to be instinctive.

41:45If they have too much time to think, I kind of think Havertz is the opposite, to be honest, in terms of being a finisher. I think the more time he has to think, the better. And to your point, Phil, yeah, it did give us a bit of a denouement, a bit of a kind of icebreaker moment, I guess, in a pretty tense game. But obviously, the fact that it's Havertz against Chelsea, that really adds to it as well. I struggle to think who they would have been more annoyed by scoring between him and Maduweke, but I reckon it might be Havertz. Oh, they really hate him. And he hates them back, which is even better.

42:20Yeah. But yeah, exactly. And it's, and look, there is potentially, I don't even think potentially, I think there is like a philosophical argument behind this. Why do players leave Chelsea and not really like them? Because I don't think Chelsea treat, I think particularly now, I think they always kind of have treated, players as like quite expendable kind of assets. Assets. Yeah, that's the word. I think now under like Clear Lake, that is even more like all these stories about like the physio going on the bench with Maresca and stuff like that. That is, you are dealing with a piece of equipment.

43:01You are dealing with an expensive piece of equipment, an asset that we want to make money from. That's the whole thinking behind their club, right? Their hedge funds, right? that's that's that it's risk management that their assets and so chelsea i mean all these players they're buying who's gonna have or cultivate like a close relationship with the fans or like be like you know a proper chelsea man and who are they going to parade around the pitch in 25 years at half time when they get you know a legend on the side like i don't think any of these guys will come back maybe one or two um but they'll all be sold in a couple of years and and whatnot and so players do leave Chelsea and they will do things like round the goalkeeper and point to the Arsenal badge and whatnot because Chelsea they don't really treat their footballers as people I don't think all that stuff about the bomb squad and putting them in separate gyms and all of that and listen cards on the table I actually really respect what Raheem Sterling has done which is just like do you know what I've won everything anyway I'm not getting back in the England team pay pay me 300k a week to go to the gym fair enough like every day I will do that like like young kids how to play football yeah exactly like I I've got respect um for that and I think it said something obviously I'm going to say this with my bias as an Arsenal fan I think that moment said something about the two clubs to be honest and how like a player like Kai Havertz found a home tactically under this coach first and foremost nothing happens without that but like that these players come to Arsenal and I think they look at it and think ah okay like we're actually like people here I mean they do have one legend but he was too busy being a content creator filming the last 60 seconds of the game so how like you couldn't have pulled that that clip out of my phone if you paid me 10 million pounds so the fact that he uploaded that voluntarily just shows what what kind of people that club produced I mean one nil on the night four to on aggregate I don't think we were in any real danger of losing or going out I think we're we were by far the better team the game should have been done or the tie should have been done in in Stanford Bridge or at Stanford Bridge we left goals on the pitch that day but we did finish it off a very professional performance and just a quick word from both of you because it will be Man City in the final after they beat Newcastle 3-1 last night I mean I don't know if you watched the game but Newcastle left about three goals on the pitch but they were a total shambles defensively, which usually gets you killed at the Etihad.

45:36Although when you're missing Joel Linton, Bruno Guimaraes in midfield, and your left side consists of Kieran Trippier as the left wing back and Dan Byrne as the left-sided centre-back, it already feels like a long night before the game's even kicked off. So Pep has already come out with the excuses. They have to travel two hours down to London, Tim. I mean, like it's a trip to the south of New Zealand, but they're also upset because Mark Gahey can't play even though the rules are very clear and also the referees don't want them to win guys so I just you really fear for them leading up to this and I never expected the underdog gimmick from them or him but here we are I mean just Tim quick thoughts on City are you relishing that one are you would you a preferred Newcastle I definitely would have because they're going to kick the shit out of anybody yeah yeah i think on balance i would have preferred newcastle just because man city okay yeah yeah yeah i think it is that simple i do think there is potentially like a psychological risk in terms of the title race as well if it's close when that game happens and city win you can imagine what they would say um and and rightly so like in their position um i think you're right again talking about that kai havertz moment and the kind of things I glean from it.

46:55You know, I look at like Arsenal City and don't get me wrong, a lot of this is because City have been so successful for quite a long time now and obviously like it washes over you as a fan. That's just completely natural. So I'm not looking to dig out like City fans here, but I did look at it and I was just like, there's so many empty seats. The atmosphere is so flat. I appreciate the game was over and obviously that takes a toll and Arsenal Chelsea is a closer game between two rivals. I completely understand all of that. And I completely understand that we're going to be more happy because we've not been as successful as them over the last 10 years.

47:31I completely understand all those contexts. But I look at the whole thing as a package and I was just like, you know, the tickets were 20 quid. City have done a lot of bad stuff around ticketing with their fans and all of that, but it's 20 quid. And it's just like, oh yeah, okay, semi-final win. It's half empty their stadium. There's like no atmosphere there at all. And then the first two things the manager talks about is whinges about how long it's going to take to get there. And then whinges about a rule that's been in place for decades anyway, which was relaxed this season anyway. And it's just like bad vibes, you know?

48:11It's just like, not only I can understand that this is not, you know, this team that won the treble three years ago. Of course, they're not going to be cock-a-hooped about getting to the Carabao Cup final. I understand all of that, but it's just like you actually seem to have tipped over into actively considering this like, you know, a real chore to get into this final and play this game. I hope we use that. I hope Arteta says that. I hope Arteta kind of says to his players, we're going to have, I'm pretty certain Arsenal are going to get an expanded allocation now, which will be really good. so hopefully all of our season ticket holders get sorted.

48:50But via Arteta, I'd look at it and I'd go, we're going to have more fans than them. The first two things their manager did after they qualified for this final was whinge about things. I don't know. It feels quite bad vibes. However, I'm not like it's going to be a really tough final, going to be a really tough game. We didn't beat them earlier in the season. It's a 50-50. It really could go either way. They're still a really, really good team. but it just it feels like and it also feels like if City win the conversation will still be about Arsenal and what that does to and means for Arsenal which again I think is quite natural but do you know what I mean like obviously I have tremendous bias here but it feels like Arsenal should win this cup if I was from Carabao I would want I would want Arsenal celebrating on the pitch at the full-time at Wembley rather than Guardiola probably whinging about how long it's going to take to get home and how the referee doesn't like him and celebrating in front of a half empty end if I'm if I'm from Carabao or the football league I want Arsenal winning this to to really give this occasion something yeah I mean regardless of where we are and where they are we're the ones that need to get over the line right we're the ones that need to prove people wrong and I think that will be a big part of the narrative on the day Clive it will be a big part of the psychological battle all so where do you see it at the moment obviously it's still what six weeks away seven weeks away so there's still a while to go we're going to have players injured they'll have players injured we're going to have players back and they'll have players back so how are you feeling going into that game uh just projecting obviously um got your oyster card sorted rented the parking place um where are you mentally well i'll be there for sure and it's gonna be uh it's gonna be a good hopefully a good day I just come round to the feeling at some point this season when we played Liverpool first game of the season or close to the start of the season we didn't play each other there's a lot of fear and there's a lot of risk management in the Premier League at the moment a draw at Anfield no one cares but they get the goal and we get slammed for not having the handbrake on when we play City they disappear into their own box after scoring a goal which was well crafted and only they can score with that player and we get slammed for not taking them out.

51:14So I've always felt, even when we lost to Liverpool that Anfield game, I was talking to Andrew and I said to him, we're going to go back to Liverpool in the European Cup. When the draws now come out, it looks like they're on the other side. So that team could be City. And I felt at some point this year, if you want to be the man, you've got to beat the man. And so I was desperate to have City in this final. Because I think when you play a cup game, we have to play each other. And then it's your best versus our best. What you got. You know, and there's none of these tactical things looking at the season as a whole.

51:52Your best versus our best. And I think we're ready for this now. The last time I went to Wembley to watch Arsenal, I think, was the Community Shield. And everyone laughed at us because we celebrated that one. We can't do anything right, can we? you know but it was a we scored last week a goal one on penalties and it felt really big because we got we got one on them might be the first time we've sort of beaten them you know in a long time then we beat them in the 1-0 home game and also we've done 5-1 since but it meant something to beat them and I think it's important because in this country let's be honest in this country people are not comfortable with Arsenal being the benchmark they're just not you know they don't like this manager Don't like the cut of his jib.

52:36He jumps about on the technical area too much. He's too excitable. Surely his players must be tense. He's too intelligent. He does too much leadership stuff. We don't understand that. We just call him David Brencher. We just put him in that little bucket because that makes us all feel comfortable. You know, he brought out the music at Anfield. He brought this out in training. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Why don't you listen to players? Listen to coaches. Listen to the professionals inside of the game. They are not comfortable with him setting the benchmark. We're far more comfortable with Happy, Klopp, with Gengen Press, one style of football, happy, smiley face, very humorous.

53:17We like him. Pep, we've got to accept Pep. We didn't accept him originally, but now he's won everything. We have to accept him and call him the best coach in the world. He can set the benchmark, positional player, all the rest of it. We're happy with that until other people try to do it and then we criticize them for not understanding quality of players. Also, we've always followed Manchester United in this country, but we've never really followed ourselves. Even when they were the invincibles, it's all about how can we unseat them. Well, this club and this manager may be setting the benchmark.

53:45And I think that's where the dislike comes from. That's where all of the feedback and commentaries and the things that get us all angry are all about setting us up for failure. And so if we don't win, then we'll have to all put our phones down for three months. right so this is why I wanted City because if we beat them they're going to have to be quiet you know and I think it's time to beat them and it's time to really embrace this challenge I want it I think we can obviously I think we can but we should want to want this game to really prove ourselves and continue to prove ourselves this season rebuild again in the summer and then do it next season which we've never done in our recent history back to back and I'll tell you the last time we did back to back with 1930 something team so yeah I think we need to have that sort of mentality and this is why I want to see change so I want City let's go at them beat them I can definitely subscribe to that logic especially because when I feel like we have had these opportunities in the recent past we've never been at our best or our healthiest you know it always feels like we're playing the game with a hand behind our back but I feel like if we play them this year especially with City not not with the Kevin De Bruyne is not with the Carl Walkers not with the Gundawans all these people who have been there and done it I feel like we have a chance to really you know ruffle their hair and big bro them a little bit um and you're absolutely right to be to be the best to be the benchmark you need to beat the benchmark and regardless of where they are at the moment City have been the benchmark um it feels like to me Pep is laying the groundwork for a summer departure he's kind of getting everything off his chest now so he can leave in a blaze of glory um having said that i will be a nervous wreck until the the final whistle goes regardless of what the the result is but yeah i think it's something really exciting to look forward to as a club as a as a fan base um because i really believe and i know people have mixed feelings on the carabao cup but i really believe that this could be a springboard for this group to take them on to to greater things because every team has done it liverpool under klopp did it City did it under Pep as well.

55:58Winning is good, regardless of what competition it is. To get that taste in your mouth, to go for it again, I think it can only help us. So yeah, really exciting. We've got another day at Wembley to look forward to. Let's take a quick break here because it's time to tell you about some brands. So here's Elliot and we'll see you in a second. For some reason, there's a stigma when it comes to discussing men's health issues, and it's really unfortunate. So this next product is about one of those issues. And that's something doctors know that most men don't discuss, which is stress falls into the bedroom at night.

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58:15More than anything, this felt like another day for the collective but I do want to highlight some individual performances and I'll start with Piero and Capier who in my mind had his best game in an Arsenal shirt I think it's been a steady if not spectacular start for him at the club getting injured straight away then needing to play at centre-back with Saliba, Gabriel and Calafuri all out but it's clear that Mikel rates him and more importantly rates him ahead of miles in the pecking order I mean whether or not you think he's above Calafuri is another thing I don't think so but But Timba had the job of marking Esteval in the first game, right?

58:50But this time, Incappier was dealing with De Lapp. Again, I don't really understand that decision, but that's what they opted to do. Then Esteval came on in the second half, but he was basically untroubled and held things down really well. He won more tackles than any other player on the pitch with five. He won more duels than any other player on the pitch with eight. And I think we really saw his value in a more defensive game state. I mean, people have a couple of issues with him on the ball, but I think in terms of a defensive presence and a pure defender on the pitch, this felt like Incappier in his natural habitat without going full David Attenborough.

59:28So Clive, you spoke about having your eye on Incappier after the Leeds game and maybe wanting a bit more from him going forward. But this felt like his day, this felt like his game state, his occasion. Tell me a bit about his performance and whether you felt like this was him announcing himself to the group. Yeah, in the ground he stood out quite clearly. I think because we could see that the lap was on him. I didn't really understand why the lap was so wide, if I'm honest with you, when I was in the ground. I could see they were diagging out to him. I thought, okay, I've got it now. So here's your exit plan.

1:00:02So let's just deal with that. So he had to deal with that, which he did. I often say, I said previously that I think he's more of a left back. And my reasons for that is just the way he approaches the man in possession. And so when a fullback goes in, they go in and they bend their legs, they bend their back, and they jockey in their hole that way. They get down quite low. and that is the sort of defensive style of a fullback. The centre-backs go in, they're a bit more upright, they're a bit more stand-upish, they're normally a bit taller as well. And so I felt straight away he was a left-back for me.

1:00:39That's how I would use him in the Premier League. I think in this game, I thought he was consistently coming narrow but then getting out and getting out quickly enough. So they had to come backwards, come away from goal. He took the line away. he's good in the air, and he transmits a ferocity in his defending, which I think the manager likes. He likes someone who looks like they enjoy it. I think on occasion, I was talking to Adrian yesterday, the way he approaches the ball to a tackle, I sometimes think, mate, slow down a little bit. This is England, one little tap and it's a penalty. So I worry about his deceleration as he goes in.

1:01:21I think that's part of his defensive style. he goes in and he tears through i just hope he's from mcford or clive that's what they do yeah i hope he's that what they do so fair play to you but like um i just want to make sure he's look he's looked at the penalty box line before he tears through you know so uh you do what you like outside the box so i like that style i like the fact that on this day we had our two most defensive one one-to-one sort of defenders and they dealt with their areas and that's really important to stability. I always, I thought fullbacks like stabilizers for me. When one goes, it's a knock-on effect.

1:01:56Everyone has to come over and manage it. And I felt our two fullbacks allowed our centre-backs to be really, really straight and solid and manage their area. So it's interesting our Teter did not make a substitution at the back. We've got two attacking fullbacks that are sitting there, nice and fresh for the weekend. And we are the protagonists, shall we say. So it sort of makes sense. Yeah, Tim, Tim, how would you evaluate his performance and in general his start to life at Arsenal? Because I think it ties into another question because we saw David Raya struggle a little bit when he first came in.

1:02:30There was all that narrative about Ramsdale. You know, he struggled to really belong, especially with that framing of the loan plus obligation stuff. Did he feel part of the group? Do you think there's maybe an element of that applying to Incappier as well? I mean, it's very much some creative accounting to kind of bring him in. I think it's very clear that he will be an Arsenal player next summer. Do you think he just needed some time to feel part of the group or like part of the group in addition to adapting to English football, new teammate, new language, stuff like that? Yeah. First of all, when you said evaluators' performance, I thought you were going to say evaluators' portfolio.

1:03:09Like I'm on the Chelsea board. Yeah, exactly. I was a bit like, aren't you supposed to have stopped the Liam Rossini impression at this point? Well, people say I sound like him, so I hope this hasn't damaged me. I mean, we're deep into the fourth quarter, lads. We've got to lock in on the KPIs of Pierre and Capier. No, so I think there's definitely an element of that. I'm more inclined to go on Clive's side in terms of this was a game that probably suited him a bit more. I think giving him Liam DeLapp probably helped as well. that's not don't get me wrong I'm not saying hincapier slow or anything but like it's not exactly like a quick feet winger who's gonna who's gonna show you a clean pair of heels it's a physical challenge he's a bit nasty though he will he will get his elbows out he will jump with you so it's not an easy physical of course yeah but I think that's all within hincapier's wheelhouse like I think those are all you know his build I remember saying like the first time I watched Calafuri play for Arsenal in one of those Emirates Cup games I swapped sides in the stadium and I think he came on for the second half and he played left back so he was like right below me and I was like he looks like he's wearing shoulder pads like he literally looks like he's come on in NFL gear you know just like running up and down and Hincapier's got that similar like you know should we say broad shoulders um in terms of his build and obviously like I can imagine that probably Gabriel Ainz's hand was in this transfer as well it's like similar players actually yeah I was going to say like Gabriel we're looking at a South American left back who can play left center back and Gabriel Ainz was probably like yeah yeah yeah that that that sounds good to me chief so there was there's a bit of that and I think we can see that Hincapier's gifts are more defensive than offensive at the moment he was much better in that respect as well in this game like he did kind of fly forward i don't i feel like i see him get forward i don't see him fly forward but um i think there was perhaps an element to which some players are just motivated by certain things and i feel like he's motivated by collisions and i think liam de lapp gives you that you get collisions and that's when he flies that's the stuff he likes um whereas you know trying trying to like nick a ball off of like a Gittins or even an Estaval or someone like that.

1:05:32I'm not saying he can't do that, but like, I, I don't, I, I, I think he enjoys the physical side of defending and, and that's what, you know, look, he's, he's, he's like, it's almost like a penguin being tossed a fish. He's just like, yep, fair enough. That like, that's exactly, that's exactly what I want. Yep. So, but, but at the same time, I almost sound not disparaging, but like, oh, actually, and Arsenal were in a bit more of a contain kind of game as well. So there wasn't the same onus on him to get forward and et cetera, et cetera. And I admit, when I say I've had trouble with the player, again, that's overstating it.

1:06:15I just don't see a big enough delta between him and Myles Lewis Skelly to go and spend that money. But, you know, like in terms of this game, this is not a Lewis Skelly game at all. And we need to look after Califuri. I think that's like, I think it's obvious that there is some physical management needed with Califuri and he's not going to be able to play every game. So I can kind of see it because he's got, defensively, he's got that kind of Califuri vibe to him. But at the same time, I think all of the soft factor stuff you're saying, Phil, is absolutely right. This is, for me, his best performance for Arsenal.

1:06:52I think he's had a lot of solid ones as well. Obviously, what he has over Lewis Skelly as well, as you can play him left centre-back, which you certainly can't with Myles Lewis Skelly. So there's that element to it. But this did feel like a bit of a moment in time, like a bit of a landmark performance for him. And what I'm really interested in now, how does he go and perform in the next game? Was it just that that game suited him or was it more the soft factor stuff you're talking about? And it's like, ah, okay, I found myself in this team now. I'm feeling myself and I can go and show my true quality.

1:07:29And just quickly before we move on, I think it's worth a final quick chat on Eza because he started on Tuesday and sort of flitted through the game with some nice touches and bits of movement, but was otherwise quiet. although we can talk about the game state and how it wasn't really tailored to him and his quality and I think the guys made a good point on the IR and I agree with them that him playing the full game was a step in the right direction because when Arteta was preparing Kai Trossard was on the touchline I thought for sure Eza would be coming off you know it just seemed like a typical substitution 70 minutes gone you've done all right but nothing amazing and this is just an easy moment for me to take you off now.

1:08:10But we've gone into why it wasn't an on-the-ball game, which you could see across both sets of forward lines, actually. This was an off-ball game, and I'm certain he can do more individually in terms of having an impact, getting on the ball more. But I'm really still wondering how we can get him into better positions, either off the left or alongside the centre-forward, where he can link with people and get shots away. Because I I was watching a comp of Adam Wharton this morning. And my biggest takeaway, apart from his unbelievable passing range, was how dangerous Eza looked in almost every clip.

1:08:45Because he was running into such good positions in the half spaces, on the edge of the box. He was even running in behind. Obviously, teams play differently against Palace than they do against Arsenal. But he seems to have lost some joy and spontaneity in his game. So, Clive, I'll ask you, what did you make of Ezra's performance? And did you think him staying on was a positive sign, that something maybe clicked for him or the manager in terms of his off-the-ball stuff? Yeah, if I had a bit on the IR for conversation, I may have made him my stock rising. And there's a reason for that. Because in the game, when I'm in the ground, I'm thinking, mate, come on now.

1:09:23I want that second goal. We're not really creating much. you're the one creative player that we've really picked in supermending maybe shall we say and so i need you to get on it because if you just get on it and and we get and we score i can relax and we're tuning on we go to emberley so that's that that you have to be honest about how you feel inside how you walk into a game then the game transpires and we're being quite cautious you know i think i'm i had barely any touches in the first half so we weren't even getting to forward the area so i walked away that frustration then i have to flip my mind and say actually this is not his game so what can he do now when it's not his game can he work defensively and i watched him and i watched him block lanes i watched him run about fruitless running literally just doing it because you have to because your team asked you to do it and he did it continuously continuously continuously and that i know you're watching someone do something that you know they're doing because they want to be part of this team.

1:10:22They want to be part of the group. But it's almost not natural. But he's doing it anyway. And he kept doing it. And when the Sox came out, I thought he was going to come off. And then he didn't. And then at the end of the game, when it's all one, he's all part of the joy, the rest of it, I did re-watch it afterwards. And I watched Arteta go up to him. And they had a big hug. And I thought, yeah, that confirms what I thought. You've now bought trust. If the next game when we're playing Man City in the Champions League quarterfinal and we're one that up at the Etihad and we have to make a change.

1:10:55Can he come on and is he going to let us down? No, he's not. He can play now in all different phases. Defensive transitions, attacking transitions, settled attack, settled defence. He's now shown the manager those four phases of the game, I'm not going to let you down. I know, and he literally said at the press conference, it's not enough for magic moments. You've got to be able to play everything. And again, respect every aspect of the game in every zone of the pitch that's what we are so why are we making special rules for him because he can curl one in the top corner that's not how it works you do all of that stuff and i need to do that stuff as well and i think this is it and i think this is a big game for him to build trust and someone's probably saying in the comments now well clive let's see if he gets picked for the next game it's not about that i think it's about leaving that mark with the manager is that you now become an option in any game I want to play in any part of the world in any phase of the season but you have to build your cv much like Liam's living Liam was seeing that building his cv you have to build your cv with the manager and you have to build that trust I think he's done that I mean Tim Odegaard feels like a short-term absentee but could this be a a chance an opening for Eza to wrestle himself back into the team especially at home where we'll potentially need some quality and improvisation to break through a stern tough defense yeah absolutely and I was thinking before that as well the Marino injury that's also an opportunity for him isn't it because that's that's one more player that in the manager's heart of hearts he'd probably rather start um in midfield than Eza that's that's not going to be available to him potentially for the rest of the season.

1:12:41So that, at the very least, and I don't know, maybe Havertz's reintroduction maybe damages this a bit, but at least it makes him the next man up potentially, but particularly when it's Odegaard that's not there because obviously he has a creative profile that we will miss. And if I were him, I would be looking at that as an opportunity. I would absolutely be looking at it and going, okay if this is going to happen for me this is where it's going to happen i'm kind of out of favor on the left wing martinelli and trossard are playing reasonably well at the moment like that opening probably isn't coming this is the opening that's coming this is the opportunity we have a lot of home games as well um i think five of our last eight are at home um and if you look at some of the oppositions one of the biggest thing i mean obviously like we get this anyway but like low blocks that that is going to be the theme really of much of the last three months of the season that's what we're going to be playing because we've done other than City we've done what people would regard as the big away games I guess North London Derby as well that's big not because the opposition are big that's just big for uh kind of cultural reasons shall we say but yeah like absolutely it has to be an opportunity for him and Eza has faced challenges in his career that's well documented so like I'm confident that he has like the mental capacity and facility to do it and I also think he's at a stage of his career where like he's not going to move again is he like he's 27 he'll be 28 like in the like if he decided that Arsenal hadn't worked like this is it.

1:14:27This is the big move and there isn't going to be another one. So the challenge is you have to make this work now. And I do think it's fair. We focused a lot of the conversation around Ezra, around Arteta. Does he trust him? Can he take more risk, et cetera, et cetera. But the onus is really on the player here. And at Palace, he didn't have that challenge. He was going to play every second of every game, no questions asked. That's not the challenge here anymore. And he has to adjust that. He has to show something in these games because it's a big squad. And if you don't do it like that, then you probably won't get a chance for another few weeks.

1:15:07So let's finish with a quick preview of the Sunderland game because whisper it quietly. We don't just have an opportunity to go nine points clear. We have an opportunity to stay nine points clear with Man City traveling to a resurgent Liverpool on Sunday afternoon. and this could be a huge weekend in terms of our pursuit for the Premier League title. I know Villa are still in the mix, but with their injuries and with European football and their general experience when it comes to title races, I'm quite happy to sort of look beyond them. But in terms of Sunderland, we know who they are. We know what they are, having played them earlier on this season.

1:15:41We should have won that game, but a late equaliser from Brian Brobby meant that we only came away with a point. I think generally it's been a really good season for them and by all accounts they they recruited well in the summer their spine is really strong and at this moment they're one of only seven teams who are still unbeaten at home in Europe's top five leagues so that's fairly good going however there's an important caveat here and that's their away form which has been very different with just two wins from 12 in the league and none in their last seven so maybe there's some encouragement for Arsenal there some of their attacking metrics are relegation level bad, like shots per game, shots on target per game.

1:16:21Only Burnley have a lower non-penalty XG than Sunderland this season, which kind of highlights their dance with the margins, despite sitting up in eighth. So Clive, it looks like Saka and most likely Erdegaard will miss out this weekend, but we've still got a strong squad to choose from. Where do you think Arteta goes with this team? Is it another day for Havertz and Jokeres up front, or will he be tempted by Eze again, do you think? Well, the Odegaard news maybe makes the Eze thing a bit more obvious, shall we say. I think I can see the fullbacks changing to the attacking duo. And just looking at the away form table, they're 17th in the away form table.

1:17:03And they've probably scored six goals away from home. So we have to attack them and deal with them. And I do think there's been a cathartic moment after Manchester United. Losing that game was a requirement for me. If we'd have drew that game, I think we could have soft-soaked it. By losing it, I think provided a level of clarity that we can't continue like this. As a set of players, club, fans, we all got a little bit tense. And I think this Chelsea whole experience has changed that maybe. So let's validate that at the weekend. so I could see a couple of changes and it felt like a bit of a tiring game.

1:17:43You could see gaps appeared on occasions. Maybe I'm being sent to against Chelsea and I was just thinking that we needed to really... I just got a feeling for freshening up and the full-backs and Norgard are in my mind really to come in and freshen up. Just can't roll out Zoubmend and Rice all the time. One of them's got to have half a game and the other one has to have a half of the game. Especially now that Marino's cropped. Yeah, exactly. and obviously we had a conversation about Miles, what's going to happen there, is he going to be used I think the Wigan game is going to have a level of interest in it shall we say to see what we do, to see if we're going to experiment there, but we also think we've got Brentford on a Thursday night and that's a good side in a good vein of form I love that club Brentford, I think they're excellent people say that we're like Marinos, Chelsea I think we're more like Brentford in how we do things, how we operate our model I think we're much more like them our data centric methodologies I think we're a lot more like them so yeah but that's a big game right away from home I know our way form is excellent if we can do Sunderland then do Brentford this really starts to feel different you know and Sunderland may come to back five this occasion they do that on occasion so Mikulele's a player I like Phil I always liked him when he was RB Leipzig I thought he's a player that could go to a really high level.

1:19:05I'm not sure why he dropped to Sunderland, but hey, look, he's in the Premier League being looked at. So let's see how long he stays there, right? So they've got some decent players. Le Fay is a decent player, but we should be taking this game. So if we're rested and fresh and we rotate appropriately with the two games in mind, Brentford and Sunderland, I think we'll be fine. Yeah, it's worth noting that they are missing Granit Xhaka in midfield, so he won't get his nice Emirates reception. but Habib Jara is back from injury and he's a player. He brings power and energy into midfield alongside Noah Siddiqui.

1:19:37They've got Brobby up front, who is a handful, big physical presence. The league has found him out this year. Is no stranger to an elbow, a bit like De Laat, gets his ass in the way of things. So they're going to be physical. They're going to be combative, attentive. And Tim, what kind of game are you expecting against Sunderland? And how do you think Arsenal will set up tactically what are you looking for performance wise on Saturday I think it'll be quite different to the away game in many ways because obviously they don't have their crowd behind them and and things like that but obviously I well there'll be a lot of elements of it that will be pretty similar I imagine every free kick is going into our penalty area and actually Sunderland to be fair to them probably the first and only team this season that set some kind of template against Arsenal that others have kind of looked to a little bit you know like launching every single free kick into the penalty area not putting two players up from a corner well yeah yeah yeah so look I think it's going to be low block isn't it like they're going to low block it and they're going to try and draw nil nil or maybe nick one on the break if they can.

1:20:51I think that's reasonably obvious. And that is probably in every single home game what we're going to come up against. Who have we got at home in the top six now? No one, is it? We haven't got any of the big six teams at home. I think Newcastle might be the nearest to it. They're all going to be bottom half teams and Sunderland aren't in the bottom half at the moment, are they? They're eighth, yeah. I never looked that far down the table to be honest nowadays We've got Chelsea still at home on the 1st of March Of course But again your mileage may vary on them I said big clubs Yes Yeah but that is largely going to be the challenge for the rest of the season I expect it to be really difficult I expect it maybe not to be a lot of fun again but it's just going to be down to us to kind of break them down.

1:21:46And look, I definitely like the data. The data is undefeated. It will come and get you at some point. But I still respect what Sunderland have done this season. You know, you were talking about some of the players they've bought. One of the reasons I think they might struggle next season is not just because the data gets you eventually. I wonder if a lot of teams are looking at some of those players they picked up and are thinking, they've picked up some quite good players, haven't they? Like it's got, they've really got Bielsa Leeds vibes to me a little bit, not in the way they play, but, you know, coming up, you know, being a top half team and, and, you know, like Leeds picked up players like Rafinha and, you know, and you're a bit like, yeah, okay.

1:22:30He looks, he looks quite good, doesn't he? Like, I wouldn't mind betting that they're going to be fending off some interest in some of those players in the summer and fair play to them. I really like having Sunderland in the Premier League. they feel like they should be there to me. And I think it's going to be a really hard game and actually a lot of it might not be a lot of fun. Yeah, they did a lot of good scouting in France and Belgium, obviously, because of their ownership. There are players out there, man. You just got to be a bit creative sometimes. But yeah, I agree. I think it might be a difficult, stodgy 20, 25 minutes and then we'll just need a moment from somebody across from somewhere, a shot from the edge of the box.

1:23:09And then hopefully from there, maybe even a set piece, which has been an often sort of a helpful crutch for the team this year. We've got Rice in the team. We know that Madueke can deliver a decent corner now. So can someone step up from a set piece? It's all about the first goal. The longer it goes on and it's goalless, the nerves kick in, players get a bit more desperate and frantic. But I think if we can get an early goal or an early-ish goal, that really opens up the game for us. And I think Sunderland as well, as they've done this year, have shown signs of tiredness, you know, especially because they lost a lot of players to AFCON.

1:23:42I know most of them are back now, but that's the key for me. Can we keep it on our terms for as long as possible? Because as soon as it gets to halftime, 60 minutes, 75 minutes, and it's goalless, that's an issue. So one of the reasons I thought they'd do well in the Premier League is their style seemed the most scalable. They were a counter-attacking team in the championship. You look at how they won the playoff final and all of that. I think their possession, I might have misremembered this, but I think they had one of the lowest possession rates of a promoted team in the championship. And I looked at that and thought, yeah, they can just go and play pretty much exactly the same way in the Premier League.

1:24:24Whereas like Leeds, for example, they've had to change and kind of try and turn into Sunderland a bit. Whereas I think Sunderland could come up and be themselves. And obviously they did a lot of good work in the transfer market. And so they've been a counter-attacking team for quite a while. And I know they haven't done well away in the Premier League, but I also think when you go away to Arsenal at the moment and you're a counter-attacking team, you can lean the hell into that because you know that that is the only way that you can play at the Emirates. Yeah, I mean, they're 18th for possession this year.

1:25:00Only West Ham and Burnley are below them. So I think that's quite a clear idea of who they are as a team. I would just love us to move the ball firmly and quickly. I know the weather's going to be crap again. We don't know what the pitch is going to be like, but I would just love us to move them around a little bit because I think when Arsenal do get into that zone, I think a lot of their play is based on control and their temperament and eventually breaking teams down. But I think we do have those moments of being able to move things around quickly. We get the overlaps going, the underlaps going with the fullbacks.

1:25:31So I would just love us to be on it from the first whistle because I think generally this season we've started slowly. So especially at home, we need to make a statement. I think we're going to be on it a bit more. Just think about Son a little bit. So they've got Daniel Ballard in the middle of their defence and he can match us in the air for sure. And so the aerial game that we play sometimes, you know we almost play like set-piece play and open play. We come back, think, cross into the box. We have to think about that. So we speak about Eze earlier on and I do think one thing we need to think about and improve on is our edge of area shooting.

1:26:08And I think this is going to be the thing we need to do for the end of the season. The one year out of the three for me I felt we should have won the league was the year when we'd lost by two points. But that was the year when Phil Foden hit about eight shots from outside the area, it felt like. And Guardiola found his scoring touch. Remember on ricochets and things like that? At that pressure point in the season, that taught me when teams fall away and just try to be the team that stops you the space you get is at the edge of the area that's where your trussars your hodeguards and the sa's need to be really on it that's where it's going to be it's not going to be the center forward it's going to be there in that space and so i've felt quite strongly the team's going to come back to sa come back to how just because the team requirements will change you know football has different phases and so yeah he needs to be ready to accept these opportunities on that right foot or left foot doesn't really matter whether he's balanced or not doesn't really matter but his technique under pressure around the edge of the area is really really good so we need more of that Do you want to like a nice comparison there Clive 2001-2 it's Robert Perez's season isn't it until he does his ACL and then whose season does it become Freddie Jungberg's Yeah We change we change it becomes Freddie Jungberg's running at that point and yeah I think there's potentially something similar could happen there yeah over to you boys I mean how did we score the goal to go to one up at Sunderland Trossard banged one in from the edge of the box so there you go they're the players all dropped in their box yeah so this is it mate this is it yeah I mean that feels like a good place to finish and we definitely need to get something out because Elliot kept saying on the IR that there would be a pod yesterday and if my discord mentions or anything to go by people wanted a pod yesterday so apologies it's a little bit late but you've got something to keep you ticking over now until the weekend at least as always we'll have an instant reaction for you after the game on saturday which i'll be hosting as well so if you're not already signed up to the patreon for just five dollars a month you can enjoy more arsenal vision content like episodes of the countdown there'll be scouting videos there are interviews coming as well there's an excellent one on the patreon at the moment with Steve Morrow who scored in a League Cup final when Arsenal won he also broke his arm celebrating so that'll be a story you can learn more about when you listen to the interview if you sign up so you definitely get a return on that investment and of course it helps support everything we do here so otherwise all that's left for me to do is thank the guys Clive always a pleasure chatting thank you very much Tim thanks very much my pleasure as always looking forward to seeing who our Steve Morrow is this year at Wembley maybe Christian Norgard could you know we need him we need him if he wants to leave in a blaze of glory before going back to Denmark he's more than welcome to do it um I'll sign the cast um yeah my name is Phil Koster and thanks for putting up with me for this episode we've only got four games left in February which feels like a much needed change of pace after January but things are ramping up and without jinxing too much it feels like some travel plans around late May and early June might be in order so thanks as always for listening we love you and we will talk to you after Arsenal 10 Sunday the New

1:29:49Thank you.