World Cup Daily - Jude Again For England, Stunning Alvarez Winner for Argentina

0:00Michael Timbs:Hey, World Cup fans. If you want proper analysis, honest opinions, and plenty of laughs along the way, give The Rest is Football a listen. Gary Lineker is joined by Alan Shearer and Micah Richards throughout the tournament as they break down all the big games, the biggest moments, and everything happening on and off the pitch. They'll also be chatting with some brilliant guests along the way. Whether you've watched soccer your whole life or you're just getting into it, they'll help make sense of the drama, the tactics, the joy, and the heartbreak of the World Cup. Listen to The Rest is Football wherever you get your podcasts.

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2:00Look, this probably deserves a longer podcast, but we're going to cut it short because I need to get back to watching Rapid Vienna play SPG Hogo in a friendly. This is the World Cup Daily. My name is Elliot Smith. I'm going to look, I am down bad that there is no football today. And so I checked, and indeed Rapid Vienna are 1-0 down to SPG Hogo in their club friendly. Only 57 minutes gone though, so still time. Now, Carl Zeiss, Jenna, and Union Berlin have just kicked off. Just 0-0 in that game. We'll keep you abreast of the developments there. And the reason is there is no proper football today.

2:37It is painful. There is no proper football today. There is no proper football tomorrow, but there is a proper World Cup daily because the man you're here to listen to, a man who is a semi-finalist, or at least a member of a nation that is a semi-finalist, Michael Timbs. Hello, Timbsy. Hello, mate. How are you? Yeah, like the World Cup is one of those things, right? You take it for granted, take it for granted, take it for granted. Then you get to this stage and you're like, oh, yeah, it's almost gone.

3:05Michael Timbs:and now i was just about to say yeah it's you look back at the the group stages and most of those days you're going oh can we just be done with these group stages let's just get into the real thick of it and then he gets to this stage and you kind of miss it's like a toxic x yeah yeah i miss them and then when you actually do get the back you realize oh this is why i didn't want them you know yeah i mean obviously i have no toxic x's all of my relationships Neither do I. I totally made it. Loving, cherishing, treasured, and obviously ended with a friendly hug and some flowers and thanks for the memories.

3:41And then I met my wife and we have the perfect marriage. So I don't totally understand the reference, but otherwise I'm sure others do. The listeners will. Because our listeners, if anyone has toxic exes, it's World Cup Daily listeners.

3:56Michael Timbs:If anyone's familiar with a toxic relationship, it is Arsenal fans with their club. Fair. Yes, the toxic X is the banter era. Yeah, exactly. The toxic X. Okay, let's actually talk about football and the football that happened yesterday. I don't think the format suits us very well, the headline, stock rising, stock falling, because there's specific stuff to get into. So we'll start with England-Norway. And I guess the first thing I just want to say is congratulations. How do you feel about being in the semifinal? thank you first of all I feel very good but it's a mixed bag of emotions I feel good I feel quietly proud I also feel nervous I'm also unbelievably excited because I think the England-Norway game was almost caught between two proper world cup games if you know what i mean mexico away at the azteca it was so frantic and chaotic and the energy was off the chain and you could see that in just the way the game played out and england argentina is possibly like the most world cup game that england have had in my lifetime uh that that i can remember or or kind of as an adult because we never get in knockouts we never really get south american teams like those historic world cup teams we get france or we get spain or we get germany or we get portugal and we probably get iceland years anyway or we get iceland and go out gracefully the thing is this argentina doesn't have a legendary player like a maradona like the like the last exactly they've got no chance they have no chance but it's it is amazing uh i think um i am very excited overall like it's it's he's so it's really stressful and not enjoyable when you're watching it and then when it's over you're you're happy and that's it you kind of it's this odd feeling can i ask you a tough question because i can't put myself in in this position i have no reference point is there any world where england don't win the world cup but you come away feeling good about england's world cup or you're sort of at the point now where it's like we gotta win this thing and anything else is heartbreak absolute heartbreak oh i would have said in previous years yes but now i think everyone knows that we haven't played well and everyone knows that this isn't the best team so i don't think you can be annoyed or you can of course be disappointed, but I don't think you can be annoyed or like frustrated with this side for not winning a World Cup when you're coming up against either a France or Spain side that is better than us at football.

7:04Michael Timbs:I think it'll be more understandable if it's France. I think like if we're going to lose, let it be France. They're the best team in the world. I don't think Spain is better than England for what it's worth, by the way. I categorically deny that. Really? category i think they are miles better than us the england team is a better team than the spain team at least look and i make this mistake right sometimes of saying who are the better club players and that means that's the better national team and i understand that isn't necessarily how this works because real madrid have vinnie and bapé and jude bellingham and chouamani and all these players and like they they aren't one of the top probably even four or five club teams in the world right now so i i accept that's not how it works but well so this actually leads me to two points i wanted to make timsey one is more of a question for you now that you're here and there's a chance to win it it's going to take something special obviously to get past likes of an argentina spain and france um do you have any regret or frustration with tuchel tuchel to tummy tukes that do you have do you have any frustration about selection i look at things like trent wharton yeah palmer foden like there's some players i mean look i i get that arsenal fans like nani medueke because he's one of ours and i and i think i see the things nani does well but like yeah it's frustrating he can be frustrating and like when when a sack comes on you see the golfing class obviously right back is still a concern i would say that the the midfield combinations can sometimes feel like they lack certain qualities to get the ball back to front and like he has left certain big players at home now being a manager of a team like England you have to leave some big players at home and you've made it to a semi-final and you're in a position where I think you absolutely can win the two remaining games that stand in your way even though I have you as favorites over Argentina I wouldn't have you as favorites over France I would have you as close to favorites over Spain and by the way when I say favorites I mean by the finest of margins but yeah do you have any frustration about the the selection at this point or not really not really not really because I don't think there have been I barring maybe three players so Trent Cole and Phil Foden barring those three I think the rest sort of picked themselves and I think it wasn't really Tuchel's fault that maybe the best players weren't in the best form and didn't make it easy for him to select them so do i like that konza is our starting center back absolutely not but i can understand why he's been in in a weird way even though i don't think he should start i think it should be stones and obviously i was very happy that stone started this one stones is his age is showing his legs are gone compared to how they were a few years ago and yeah I don't really know I don't think I wouldn't put that blame solely on Tuchel I think the window for having done that now is has passed we've got far enough now that I think no matter what happens in the next game or if we get to the final whatever happens in the final and if we lose I don't think you can really look back and go well it's the the team selection or it's the squad selection we didn't choose the right players it was doomed from the start like i just don't think that's the case uh because also bearing in mind in the euro final yeah carl walker started right back i don't think anyone would have questioned that he got torn to shreds he was terrible and and and then you're like oh well okay are you going to blame the team selection then maybe we shouldn't have played maybe we should have played whoever we should have brought ben white into the squad and that and that would have sold everything you just i think when it gets to that point there's no point arguing about team selections or squads or individual players i think it's just you've got this far getting the necessary results with that team and i think most importantly tutu's done it by making quite brave decisions not always the right ones but being decisive with his substitutions not waiting too long and the team has showed that they are a good side we just haven't played well and we haven't we've got this far without having to to play well which is a good thing because then suddenly against Argentina if you if you replicate the kind of Mexico's second half performance for example like half of the first half performance then you're suddenly going like okay we've we've really got a good chance here and we should go through but we just haven't been able to to to do that but i don't think again that's necessarily tutro's fault i just don't think not many people have played well argentina played well for some games france have played well for some games spain's played well in maybe one game or two games yeah well you know that that's it really in norway arguably have played well in quite a few games and then we don't really turn it on that much and we and we beat them so yeah look i mean first of all it kind of reminds me in a way of of arsenal getting the champions league final i mean it was Leverkusen, Sporting, and Atleti.

12:12No one takes that final away from us. And if we beat PSG, we're champions and I don't care what the path is. And you were in the path in a way through how you perform in the league phase. I know all that. But like, you know, England, it's DR Congo, Mexico, Norway. It's not a murderer's row per se. But I do think there's a couple of factors here. I mean, one is first of all, the World Cup is a World Cup. Everybody's pretty good and every game is hard and nobody is really easing past anybody with the exception of France in some respects. The conditions at the Azteca are difficult, and you're playing the home team in their home national stadium under incredibly difficult conditions and altitude.

12:50And then I want to ask you about this. I actually got a decent amount of angry responses on social media, which means I'm doing something right, by sort of referencing that I don't think those were good conditions for a football match. And, you know, there's some people that's saying, well, that's very Northern Hemisphere or Western-centric. It's not good condition. Well, no, hold on a minute. They don't tend to play football at the highest elite level in the hottest weather in any country where football is played. In most places where football is played, the effort is to play during the time of the season, the season of the year, when it is most conducive to elite football.

13:25and I'm sure they're out well yeah and he's well and I'm sure they're outliers to that but the fact of the matter is you know when when the wet globe bulb temperature wet bulb globe temperature whatever is pushing 44 Celsius or 117 120 Fahrenheit I mean Erling Haaland couldn't stay on the pitch through the conclusion of the game players had to be taken off the game slowed the walking pace at the time and that's not me saying boohoo I want to be entertained that's me saying trying to win in that kind of condition is difficult and i i'm just curious if you have any comment and then by the way the game has a lot to talk about so we'll get into that stuff too but do you have any comments sort of on the conditions and and you know look i'll just say it then we can leave it i think it sucks that fifa put a quarterfinal in mid you know in the middle of the day in miami in mid-july but but it is what it is that how did you feel the conditions influence to the game they obviously were they did have a big effect because it wasn't the same even even

14:32Michael Timbs:with the the altitude of the mexico game they were still running around and and they might have been struggling you know with their recovery or lack of oxygen or whatever but like the the intensity was still there for large parts of the game because i think they were playing obviously in the evening and it just wasn't anywhere near as hot whereas this one everyone did feel leggy there I think also they managed to sustain that, the way they played for longer in the game anyway, just because there was a lot less intensity to the game. But Norway, I think we spoke about it yesterday. I wasn't quite sure how the game was going to go, whether Norway were going to dominate the possession and the lion's share of the ball, like they have done in previous games, and we were going to sit back because we're scared of Haaland hitting us on the break, or we're going to dominate the ball because we are the better team.

15:20Michael Timbs:And it was obviously the latter. so within the first five ten minutes it was immediately clear all right okay we're gonna dominate the ball we didn't really have much at all uh and then post hydration break obviously that changed a lot of things and norway came back into the game i thought odegraud was was amazing um but going back to the weather i think it obviously did have an effect just because no one really seemed to be super buzzy or you know have a sustained level of energy throughout the game really apart from Odegaard but he just he's like that all the time I mean Declan Rice I know he was struggling with a bug apparently that week so he was actually ill as well as possibly you know still I think it's food poisoning actually but yeah food poisoning sorry and uh he was obviously struggling because even during the hydration break obviously I think like a lot of Arsenal fans all I'm looking for in any of the like secondary or third like views of things is just what did the arsenal players do and so hydration breaks i'm trying to look for odegaard saka deklin nonny and watching deck there was he was just behind where tutra was but towards like a cooler and he just had his head in the cooler the whole time well not maybe not the whole time but for for a long time i was just yeah if it was in the whole time he would have drowned yeah yes yeah yeah or i mean to be fair i think by the size of his lungs and his capacity to run I wouldn't be surprised if he could hold his breath for three minutes, but he had his head in a cooler.

16:51Michael Timbs:I think maybe a towel was just cooling himself off for a long time, whereas people were still just the rest of the team were walking about, taking drinks, listening to Thomas Houtel. So he was obviously struggling and then came off at halftime. I think he obviously we are a better side when he is on the pitch. But for someone like him to have to be dragged at halftime and it not be an injury, it has to be something really severe where playing when you're ill is really hard anyway. But playing in that heat when you're ill is almost impossible. So the fact that he lasted that long is obviously impressive.

17:26Michael Timbs:But it definitely did have an effect. you can kind of you can you can tell it wasn't the main thing i did my last kind of thing on this in in terms of like the weather or the the the variables that you can control by delaying a kickoff or bringing certain things forward or whatever it is is that ultimately what everyone wants for the most part unless you're like an underdog what everyone wants is two teams to be at their best playing each other in equal conditions and that you just want to see the best game possible between these two sides playing at their best ability whoever wins wins great the most fair the most equitable fine and i think with in conditions like those when you can almost it is it's it becomes a game of how well can you deal with the the heat and it might actually change your strategy or tactics going into the game because it's like we're not going to waste our energy we're going to sit back and you know maybe catch them in the second half like it just the the The game obviously changes the way that you play the game.

18:24Michael Timbs:And then you just don't get the best representation of like, how good are these two teams? Yeah, and like football throws that up sometimes, right? Like, so be it. We'll get into the game. But like I said, I mean, I'm where you are, which is there's a part of me with, you know, my rooting interest there was for England, but not to the extent it is for you. So for me, I want to see these two teams go at it where the conditions don't prevent the game from being what it can be. And that just wasn't the case. But FIFA going to FIFA. Yeah. Okay. So into the game. And by the way, like I think if you want a testament to England's immense quality and talent, if you ask me going into this world cup, who the four most important England players are, or any of the last couple of years, I'd say it's Kane, Jude, Saka, Rice.

19:13Those are the four best England players. Those are the four most important England players. And England are in a semi-final of the world cup with a half, half fit at best rice and half not available in the quarterfinal and not even half fit and mostly unavailable Saka and they've still managed their way to a semi-final despite that so I mean I think that is a huge testament to their massive talent you know yeah yeah and I would agree and I think

19:39Michael Timbs:maybe that's what has has helped us I don't think that makes us a better so so my argument from earlier saying that I think France and Spain are better football better football sides than us better football teams than us is not that we don't have the talent i think arguably say man for man at our best we have a better team sure maybe not than france but the other two i think for sure sure but then in terms of actually being a football side is what is dragging us through is individual quality yeah whereas what's dragging them through is being a better footballing side because they they just they they have a system they have a way of playing they if they if they change players they can adapt their system accordingly and it doesn't change too much their kind of i guess philosophy and all that sort of thing i would i would say that's where it's rescue sorry is it that's where our individual quality obviously but particularly kane and bellingham has has saved us a bit really because everyone knows we haven't played well and we haven't really bar maybe half an hour 45 minutes against mexico looked like playing well either Yeah I was going to say in Jude What you have that Spain has is you have a I think you have a poor man Mikel Marino In Jude Bellingham like a poor man's Mikel Marino I know we love Arsenal But I don't know if I can make that joke Because now I feel so bad on Jude I know you say it in jest But even then leave it to me And I love Mikel Marino And we've sung his praises rightly so He is the best thing ever You don't think he's better than Jude Bellingham maybe But he might not be he might not be okay well that that's gonna take us you know what let's do this let's throw this in here now yes the nord vpn mvp of the day the nord vpn mvp of the day nord is your security app it is your watch what you want where you want app it is an app you put on your phone your tablet your pc your mac your ipad it doesn't matter put it on and it does a couple of things first of all protects you right it protects you from threats on the internet and as football supporters by the way sometimes we're watching streams and sometimes those streams are on websites and sometimes those websites, put things on your computer or your device.

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22:47It's a lot here, but it would be silly not to just talk about Jude Bellingham's greatness for a minute. Tim Z, I don't know what a Jude Bellingham is because I watch a game and I find myself being like, is he involved in the game? How does England use him? how does he get involved you know how he gets involved in the game he just wins you the game he does the thing the second goal is pure mikhail marino opportunism being first to it to the ball the first goal is jude fuck it i'll do it myself bellingham just saying you know what screw this i'm gonna score us a goal and i don't know how you quantify his role or his skill set other than

23:22Michael Timbs:he just wins you football matches yeah that is a large large part of why he is he is so impressive and has been so impressive this world cup because to be able to be the key man as technically a midfielder and to get this far in the tournament with whilst scoring six goals and it is ridiculously impressive and yeah it is kind of hard to understand why i would say he he offers the same uh kind of equation and like jumble of attributes in the same way that like marino does he he is a i will admit he is a better footballer than mico marino fine however um it's the same it's the same uh conundrum and it's the same in the way that we said when we were talking about marino and i said he was like a he was a joker in in the pack that that spain have that not a lot of others do i think he jude is our version of that um in the i think he's almost he almost does himself a disservice and that people maybe underrate him for his like for quite a lot of his attributes and his abilities because he's very good at everything you know he's his athleticism is is is incredible whether that's you know like his his running ability with the ball and his dribbling or it's his recovery or it's his engine or it's his top speed it's all just great like he's a freak athlete and has been since he was 16 he's got an eye for goal and he's got that knack of being in the right place at the right time so he obviously knows how and when to time his runs where to be in the box he said which means he understands the the passages of play and where his role is so he's obviously very disciplined but then he's also got unbelievable technique and he's just he's just like an eight and a half out of ten at everything and but then when he obviously doesn't have a good game it's like what does this guy even do and obviously when you do look at those games just like that yeah he did when when he doesn't do anything it's just like it's hard to figure out like what does this guy even do well and then you have the run that he's had in this world cup and you go well i mean he's he he he runs people into the ground really well he's he scores really well with his head his his feet both right and left he dribbles past people he uh bodies people in the middle of the park he he can dribble past like he can pull off unbelievable skills and get out of tight spaces like a a diminutive you know number 10 and then you're like what what can't he do so he's just a very he's a he is a freak in in many ways in uh but in a good way um he's yeah he's incredible and i also think one of his he is so mature and has obviously such a solid head on him that he isn't phased by anything he's so almost above it all in a really way i don't know if that's the right way of kind of explaining it but he's just turned 23 also it's ridiculous yeah he's yeah you go ahead go ahead sorry no i was like it just it seems like he's so in the same way that marino is unfazed by this and it's because maybe his freedom comes from i'm not a number nine but i know that if i get in these positions like i can finish and so it's almost like pressure off i'm not a number nine jude i think his comes from i know how good i am and i understand this game very well because he he plays like a 80 year old football expert and and just like he did and but then he's confident in the fact that i have a man's body i had like and just but i have the the quick-mindedness of the best player and i have and so he can just he exudes this just like it's not a big deal for him to play in whatever stage and it's like no i'll turn up and he's just the self-assuredness and confidence and belief and ability just all combines to it doesn't matter what stage it is or what stage of the tournament it is he'll just score and he'll just win you a game and part part uh so many people thought when he scored the overhead kick in the euros and he said ah who else uh he got so much criticism for that even though we were obviously reeling and we were happy people thought oh who is this guy to see who else couldn't say who else no one else apart from harry kane can say who else because jude does just turn up all the time he never ever shies away for better or worse he never shies away ever it's it's so weird timsey like there's a part of me my sort of stat guy brain that thinks clutch is the kind of thing we like to talk about that doesn't really exist that is just that is just this made-up concept we have and then you see athletes who prove that wrong and you just give the middle finger to that nonsense like no clutch exists and like i don't know what jude bellingham is but he's clutch like if you look at his data in the world cup like he's 50 something percentile for touches and 50 something percentile for passes like you do wind up with these players in football too by the way morgan rogers might be kind of one of them kai havertz michael marino these players who you know they're good and you know they do things that are important but they don't neatly fit into a position where you can just say that like Declan Rice is so easy to play you know exactly where you can put him and exactly what he can do right but Kaio Sackhoff the right there's certain players and of course I'm picking Arsenal players because I'm an Arsenal guy but you can think of these players throughout world football and then there are players like a Jude or or like I said a Rodgers a Kaia Marino where it's impossible to deny the importance they can bring to a team that they're in but it's harder to quantify exactly where they fit on the pitch.

29:03And Clive laughed at me in our WhatsApp. I was like, what position does Jude even play? And he's like, Elliot, you and your positions, LOL. But it's like, when I look at a midfield and I look at Rice, Anderson, and Jude, there is a part of me that says that fundamentally doesn't feel like it works. But Jude still wins you football matches. So what does works even mean? What are you trying to get to work? Because to your point, Timzy, about Spain being a better team, right? Like Spain's midfield will keep the ball and pass you to death. and totally understands how to interact with each other. It's a fluid and complete, perfect symbiosis of qualities together and technical levels.

29:39Anderson Rice and Jude are not that, but Jude just goes and wins you games. It is really hard to tactically identify what it is he's doing.

29:48Michael Timbs:And I think in games where we have been the favorite, we haven't, in every single game that we've played this World Cup, we've been the favorite, and he's just helped to deliver a result that we felt is satisfactory we haven't played well enough to to truly earn these wins apart from maybe croatia and mexico like we've kind of you could argue either side oh we deserve to win we didn't really do enough to win but hey jude's gonna do his thing the best way i think of putting it is if we play against france and france or spain in the final and we get past argentina if we play against france or spain the likelihood is they will beat us the one thing that we have that they don't is a jude and i know they have okay they've got marino and he but it's like we both france and spain can almost rely on the fact that they will play well or know how to play well i still don't think we know how to play well in our team at the moment we still haven't figured it out of how we want to attack where we want to uh where we where we want to play and position ourselves in the final third and that we're kind of replicating mini bits of phases of play that people have taken from their respective clubs in the premier league or whatever it is and so i think the biggest chance that we have of winning in a final if we get there is either Kane or Jude turning up and just being that person that we've needed the whole tournament long which is just I don't know how it's gonna work but you're gonna be in the right place and you're gonna pull something out of the bag because I that's just what you do um and it is hard to quantify like it's yeah it's it's bizarre but I mean he's he's just so he's so big time and he's such a big game player uh and yeah he's just incredible he is yeah I mean he's the nice thing for a national team right is you don't have to have the best tactics because you don't play 38 games and need to accrue three points every week and win a title you know what you need to do you need to make it through the grueling uh gauntlet that is the World Cup and any way you get there works and one way you can get there is you're gonna have the absolute best tactics another way you can get there is just have good players who win you shit and Jude Bellingham is very much in that camp Harry Kane is as well and I'd say Rice and Saka are too and England are doing it essentially without those players really um you know I thought Saka's cameo was excellent obviously like whatever you think of Nani Madweke the golfing class between Saka and Nani was very clear in this game and by the way that's normal nani is a player saka is a global superstar player and he's supposed to be better but the the the i would say the sophistication in his game you know the the obvious excellent intelligence decision making control very much on display there's a couple of things we do have to parse here though so let's get through those quickly well since we talked about jude let's start with this do you have any comments about jude and tuchel kind of being stitched up so so let me just set it up for people that don't know what happened so tuchel said i'm not happy with the performance jude was then told tuchel thinks it was a bad performance it's kind of i think it's it's a little bit of trying to poke the bear and get a response and jude basically is like screw him we played great it was tough conditions he said whatever whatever he i watched it after i stayed in the pub i watched it in the pub by the way bear and bear your mind any everyone who's listening i don't know if we've uh said yet england won two one and we're through to the semi-final um i stayed in the pub and tried to listen to the um post-match uh interviews on the pitch and managed to catch most of jude's and it was just hilarious how it was so obvious it was coming he's like wow i just spoke to jude uh just spoke to to thomas and and he said he wasn't very happy with the performance and the you know mentality fine great but we need to play so much better So that was not good.

34:00Michael Timbs:We got away with one. We were lucky today. And then just the fact that Jude, as he was listening to it, you could see his face contort a little bit with confusion. This is how amazing he is, is that there's no PR training here. He's the most PR trained, media trained guy in the world because he's been doing this since he was 15. But also he's intelligent enough to, and self-assured enough to know that I'm just going to say how I feel because I know what I'm talking about. so then he just goes um yeah whatever he wasn't out there playing like he doesn't you know we realize how tough a game that was Norway are one of the best teams in the world and you go yeah you're also absolutely right I agree with both of you I think it wasn't good enough on a on a I guess technical or tactical basis like we didn't we didn't we didn't play well but equally games at this point it almost is by the by it doesn't matter how well you play what matters the most is do you get through to the next round of the knockouts and obviously we did that yeah so let me read you what he said yeah well whatever it's difficult out there it's a tough shift all the players have to put in a tough shift so my thoughts and appreciation go to the players who are out there and put in a great shift yet again maybe he doesn't know what it's like to play in those kinds of conditions against blah blah blah it's not easy to play again so I think we've tried to create a positive environment You're not going to win every game, popping the ball and making a thousand passes.

35:28Sometimes you have to win dirty. And we've done that tonight. Asked whether he agreed with Tuchel's assessment that England were lucky. He replied, no comment.

35:38Like, this is the problem for England. This is why England don't win things. The Guardian's headline after making a semifinal is, quote, Jude Bellingham unimpressed after Tuchel criticizes lucky England's performance. Like, the English media does not want England to win a World Cup. they they find a way to do this i am sure took and jude hugged it out afterwards cleared the air i'm sure there's nothing there but it's like there's it i i do think it's kind of just funny the way the media are looking to create a rift that doesn't need to be there but this is this

36:09Michael Timbs:is i mean like i think all mad footballing nations are their media can be quite scathing and and negative but it's been the case for for decades man like it's just what english media like we kind of ruthlessly just want to sell want to sell papers what's going to sell more papers if we win the final we lose the final is if we lose the final because then people are going to be pissed off the next day want to want to read the paper let out their anger just soak it all in um and then expel it whereas if we won it no one would go to work for a week no one's reading a newspaper for two weeks like they'll like it's going to be like euphoria and that doesn't sell so yeah it's unsurprising of course to to see that but the players won't care it's the funny thing to think of is those comments from Jude that you read and and I do agree with him in essence of course he's right of course he's right but Tuchel's right too like the manager has the right to say it wasn't a great performance we were lucky but I'm sure there's also parts of what Tuchel said are like I'm so proud of the lads they put in a great shift but they're not going to bring that to jude but the funny thing is like if you read those those exact same words and that came from like a nonny or it came from i i don't know uh uh who would i say even uh stones or stones or yeah anthony gordon yeah you see you you hear that and you're going oh he's just he's young he's been a bit petulant he's he should be happy and then you read that it comes from jude and you go, he doesn't know what he's talking about though.

37:48Michael Timbs:So he has a right to say whatever hell he wants. But yeah, and he's bought himself that fit because he holds himself so well and he's obviously so well-spoken. He's intelligent. He thinks about things. I think there's another angle to this too. And I think this winds up being really good for Jude in this respect because the other narrative the media has wanted to paint about Jude is he's out for himself. He, you know, that, what was it? The Adidas ad before the last Euros or whatever that's just about Jude. he breaks up the team ethic he's not part of the group and for him to be able to be the one who fronts up to the media after Tuchel has said England are lucky and says I'm proud of the boys we all put in a shift look what we did and like brings it back to the players it could wind up being a great thing for the camaraderie in the team to have Jude out there putting his arms around the group and celebrating them so kudos to him 100 % and also I'm under no illusion that everyone gets along in the England squad like of course there are going to be no Jed Spence is there factions he actually and also he had a we're going to talk about he was fantastic yeah he was amazing so i obviously don't think that they all get along perfectly well like they they all it's all about bearing with each other as much as you can in order to play as well as you can to get as far as you can every tournament that's all it is like you put up with each other's crap and put your differences aside and just go it's fine we're all under the same uh under the same coach here we just got to get it done so of course like it's not to say that everyone's going to love Jude like I I I think he's a great person other people might not and who knows behind the scenes if if people disagree with him about some stuff but I think when you you don't even like self-proclaim yourself you don't proclaim yourself as a as a leader or you don't want to create this whole you know of personality behind like who who you are as a player i think for him he just turns up he wins you a game he celebrates with a bit of confidence and a bit of swagger and that's it and then he lets the rest just happen and the rest the rest happening is england fans now after chanting wonder war which is almost now the official england anthem after the game they then sing hey jude they 40 000 fans the 40 000 basically grown men singing hey jude at a child after he won us a game in the world cup and it's not like him creating this campaign of oh well i want to be the next guy like that someone from maybe portugal that plays up front would do but he just lets it happen because he's like i'm just going to do my stuff on the pitch and then whatever happens happens He just wins your games.

40:27Yeah. Like that's a good way to get people to love you. Look, I think he's extraordinary. I thought it was funny. I love him and Tuchu. I love them both. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. All right, rapid fire in a couple of moments, and we can talk a little bit more about some things in the game. And I should mention, by the way, to the extent that Jude had to win this game, before extra time, because England actually created some very big chances in extra time. Yeah. But if you look at the first half, England four shots 0.18 xg second half three shots 0.09 xg and and not much more from from Norway by the way but a couple of moments so one do you think the ball hit the sky cam wire the spider cam wire leading up to England's first goal I think yeah I think so I like saw the replay

41:15Michael Timbs:and it seemed to kind of looks like it yeah looks like it equally we don't know that snickometer said it wasn't who knows if they're lying or telling the truth who knows if it works i don't i don't know um but it looks like it changes trajectory if everybody's then they're saying no but all of this stuff and again you know i told you in this very show at the beginning of the tour i don't like spider cam i don't know i i like spider cam after the game you get down in there and you kind of have cool swoopy camera angles it's ruined penalties for me so i i would gladly cut those cables and never have spider cam ever again um but i think maybe if it if it did happen and you don't like the behind the shooter view no over the shoulder it's ruined it's ruined penalties for me i thought i told uh i think no i didn't tell you this lewis was on your way gee thanks all right so now i can now i can tell you please tell me glad you glad you glad you yeah i told i told lewis on one of my stocks falling after one of the penalty shootouts that uh i don't like spider cam and i think it should be outlawed for penalties at least because it's ruined it becomes too fifa gamified you know where where the ball is at all times whereas you you lose the context of you you bear in mind you watch the whole game from the broadcast camera angle pretty much you're 80 of the game so we are used to decades of that camera angle has been ingrained in your viewer like your viewership so to then change it for arguably the most important 10 kicks of the game to where you're just behind them the whole time i'm like well that's now it's totally taken the i don't know the illusion out of it it's taken the the you lose some atmosphere you definitely lose some atmosphere like the the you you like the mise en place is gone like you're you're in the shooter's world to some extent but you lose the sense of being at the occasion i will say this i i love the angle in that it's much easier to understand whether it was a good or bad kick what the shooter was trying the the effectiveness of the keeper that's what the replays are for yeah so that's what i've so i if they just have instead of the spider cam with all the cables getting involved in potential goal kicks and stuff right snap those cables off get a guy at the other end of the pitch with an incredibly long lens and just focus on that boom then you have your replays ready to go but let's watch the first initial live kick broadcast footage a bit more zoomed in so then you get you get a more concentrated version of the football game view because you still get the fans in behind you get the reaction and i just prefer it but i'm now becoming an old fart so what about cameras in the penalty takers boots uh yeah okay yeah um so so fine it hit the spider cam like i guess that means it should have been a drop kick or whatever drop ball guessing and it wouldn't have been a goal for england and england aren't in the semi-final and and congratulations to norway let's go to the next incident Holland pushing Elliot Anderson and the goal being disallowed this for me is shambolic this is not a foul this is Elliot Anderson buying a foul um before the corner is taken and I realize that the IFAB rules are changed and you are supposed to retake the court like the law the letter of the law the law was applied correctly for me it is not a foul he's just clever it's not Holland is gently putting two hands on his chest to hold him off and Anderson goes to ground because of it and it's so clever by anderson absolutely but we've seen gabrielle by the way try this yeah i think it was against voltemann or something yeah yeah yeah and not get the call i don't think it's about the call he got the call did he oh he did get he did get the call this is the thing right this is the so i i know i agree with you like it's really when it comes down to it and football being football that isn't a foul it's just not like it's so soft it happens all the time and it's exactly it's games and ship and all of these things but again literally letter of the law it is a foul so in a way when i saw that as well i thought he wasn't gonna uh turn turn it over and i thought he was gonna stick with the decision because i think it wasn't a foul however if you are going to do that you have to sell it and anderson sells the hell out of it like he does he he he knows as soon as you can he can feel that second bigger push contact coming in and as soon as there's a little bit of contact on the fabric of his shirt he's gone and so he doesn't crumple down crumpling down is where it looks like you yeah you bought it he goes back over yes yes yes to the dive it's well so much like brie lumbolo if you're gonna do it and we'll get on to that if you're gonna do it do it like brie lumbolo just don't make it terribly obvious that you haven't so okay so we both agree it's harsh but i get it letter of the law fine let's get to the yep okay as a final as a final note on this all of this is is a microcosm of a lot larger picture of the second half is that we were lucky in the second half because they were much better than us and they deserved to i think on the base of it all they deserved to go through more than we did a draw was probably fair i mean football doesn't work that way but i yeah i agree with you on the on the balance of it in second half i think on the balance of it we got lucky we got far luckier than they did in the whole game and i think the second half we rode a lot a lot and we're lucky to go in at full-time 1-1 let's just say it that as an introduction didn't really work i don't think he had a particularly good game and it wasn't anything wrong he just didn't yeah he did a few decent bits but yeah nothing spectacular i just think we lost we lost it reminded me a lot of arsenal they just struggled to find him between the lines and he he struggled to get involved he got moved out to the left for rogers yeah um which i thought was interesting because i almost feel like why not put rogers on the left and leave as between lines But anyway, it worked out because Roger's shot gets obviously spilled by the keeper for Jude to have that goal.

47:22And by the way, like...

47:22Michael Timbs:Did that save thing, that weird... The keepers have been terrible in this World Cup. Terrible. It makes Emi Martinez look like, well, literally a world beater. Because it's like, well, he's solid and just punches what he needs to punch. Emi is the most bang average keeper. He's just good at pens. And he looks like a hero in international football. Exactly. exactly he did the uh casper michael explained to uh i think it was on fox fox's coverage saying oh that was the danish uh saving uh technique where you actually so instead of just like a normal human being right you just let it come into your chest and just gather it right at the same time and you just use your use your hand eye and use your timing and you just catch it like a normal person the the danish technique or maybe the scandinavian technique i don't know maybe the norwegians borrowed it from from denmark i used that last night the scandinavian technique oh no just keep going just keep going okay yeah what would that no no keep keep going and but it's the one and i've seen kassel schweigel do it a lot actually is that he you you the the distance you you bring your arms out a little bit more than you should so then it kind of brushes either side and almost traps it.

48:35Michael Timbs:They're loose enough where the ball can get through to take the speed off of it. It takes the speed off and then after it bounces off your chest, it doesn't have enough to get out of that gate. That sounds way harder to execute. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, it's a perfect example of why you shouldn't do that because that was some of the worst bit of goalkeeping I've seen this whole World Cup and there have been some calamitous examples of goalkeeping. Yeah, I mean, it was the Lamins won almost exactly the same, right? Sort of similar. Well, look, yeah, bad goalkeeping goal that sends England through.

49:05But like, there's one more incident. I, look. Penalty. I am not allowing any disagreement here. We can't even have an inch between us. This has to be a dive. This is a dive for me. I know Phil Costa, by the way, says that Spence has the right to get his body in front of the defender, and the defender has to be a defender. I agree you can position your body in front of the defender. What Spence does, you know what it reminds me of? You know the thing that attackers will do, where the defender's arm is by their waist. So they pin the arm to their waist with their arm and then go down. But the defender can't even take his arm away.

49:40Spence wraps his leg around Bob and then goes down the minute his leg is wrapped around Bob. He creates 100 % of the contact that causes it.

49:52Michael Timbs:It is a dive, isn't it? it's so I think it's yeah it's uh again I think it's a very similar case to the Norway example where all in all weirdly all in all it's not a penalty but by the letter of the law I think it might actually be a penalty obviously I was screaming my head off and all of me and my mates were going oh that's a penalty of course it's a penalty ridiculous um but I think when actually thinking about it is that that is a technique that it's the right technique of doing it in that you get your everyone's talk you get your body in front of the ball so then if they try and get the ball they're gonna have to go through you you take the contact you don't initiate the contact but you take the contact and then go down it's a penalty he i think didn't do it quite well enough where he got his foot across great but then you can't you need to keep it's almost like he needed to keep going and just wait for the hit in instead of getting your foot and pushing back a little bit into the defender he needed to almost wait to get hit and then push forward also there wasn't that much of a concerted effort from was it oscar bob um to to to actually go for the ball he was just running so you know it's again it's i think another example of it it wasn't a penalty but it was in a weird way yeah so yeah i mean look i get i think because also there are a lot of intelligent people i respect like yourself like felcasta who can make the argument for why it could be a penalty this is this is one of those things where you see something a certain way it's like the red dress gold dress green dress thing or whatever blue dress gold dress like i see jed spend is take his leg unnaturally wrap it around bob to put it into a position where he can go down but then like but then i think that's fine but see i think that's fine as in you can do what you want with your body and if there's someone there i would die for my right to for that to be the case yes you're actually an escape artist so it's i i think there's nothing wrong with that you can choose to manipulate your body and put it in the right place in order to get a foul i think that's not a problem and i think that happens all the time that's a very just a very standard football thing i just don't think he does it well enough and i don't think he he i don't think he invites he doesn't invite the contact as much as initiates the contact and i think him initiating the contact is the problem versus he gets his foot in the right position and i think as long as he gets his body across and then waits for the contact then he can go down i think that's more sellable as a i've got i've won us a penalty i just don't think he did that well enough i'm gonna borrow a comment from nfl nfl is something called a football move like i think if you are executing oh a foot a football move yeah i think if you're executing a natural football move meaning you are running where you should you would naturally run or you're running in a natural way like if your body winds up in front of the defender because that's where you need to run or you choose to run like fine if i superman dive in front of the defender and the defender runs into my flying body that's not a penalty you know why it's not a penalty because there's no fucking reason you should be superman diving across the defender like the the way i would adjudicate it is very simple did the defender come in contact with you doing something that is a natural move or did the defender come in contact with you moving your body to intentionally try to generate that contact like if the ball's over here and you're over there and i go over there to get in front of the defender yeah but then for example so so i don't i don't so having looked at it back now it's not a penalty it might i think technically it is a penalty but i would i don't think it's a penalty that's all that yeah because because bob doesn't even go for the ball he just runs right so he just runs he gets his foot ahead and then uses it to launch himself off and be like oh i got hit whereas i think he should have maybe not launched himself off as much i also think i don't know it's a weird one however i do think we see that all the time even for example when it comes to um an easy example to get your head around it is not your head but just generally our head around a collective head is for example the standard thing you see with a center back or a right back or a left back passing the ball into midfield and an opposition player is coming to intercept it and all you do is step across that person so you almost like it like you take it on a half turn like you would normally and open out and drive or let it run past you but because there is the danger of an opposition player getting in the way and intercepting you just put your leg and body in his path to protect the ball while still being able to take that touch on the half turn and drive through and i think that is always a foul like always a foul in the premier league and and in any league for that for that matter because you you've done you even though they're not trying to they're trying to win the ball or they're trying to run and then you get in the way of where they're running it's still it is a foul because you've just used your body cleverly it's not like you you haven't you i guess technically have initiated the contract contact because if it wasn't for you moving there you wouldn't have got hit however you've almost it's like the setting a pick in basketball it's you as long as it's a legal pick if your feet are planted so you can right up to the last minute be moving your feet but then as soon as there's about to be contact your feet have to be planted and if they're not and if you're still moving at that point then it's an illegal pick and and it's the opposite opposition foul so i think it's almost that it's like as long as you get in the way and they the what they are the ones who are initiating and following through with that contact i think it is your foul and i think that's what jed missed if that makes sense it does i i think that there's a thing that sometimes football just doesn't do well which is what's equitable like what's the equitable yeah exactly you know what i mean again i totally agree yeah i don't like here's it's it sounds so simple and so obvious like do you want that to be a penalty do you want that to be a 0.8 chance at a goal and for me yeah no i don't and i think the problem is if you reward that kind of thing with a penalty you know you get more of more of that unless a player's trying to stay up through contact ride contact try to continue to play like like how many times have we even said oh a player was too uh player was too honest there the phrase too honest shouldn't exist but we all know what it means it means if you go to ground you get the penalty i think actually more penalties should be given where a player rides a clear foul in the box but doesn't go down and fewer penalties should be given where they choose to go down and could have stayed on their feet you know what i mean like reward reward the equitable outcome not the the law outcome if you see what i'm saying like if i'm a player and i've been clearly fouled in the box but i try to ride the challenge and i can't get a shot away or something then give me the penalty if i just look for contact when i should just try to maintain the play yeah i don't but this is but then something comes to is it the the kind of deeper topic of football above all sports and which is why it's so popular is because it's and because it's so free-flowing is that it is a constant matter of gray area ambiguity there is there is very rarely just black and white they're like of it breeland bolo is quite obviously like okay fine it's it's a dive and it should be a yellow card but well we'll come to that for the most part there are so many decisions and so much stuff that happens in the game because it's so fast and there's so many things going on that it's a constant different just a constant scale every incident is on a on a scale of just gray and it's either darker gray or lighter gray and the this is where the intervention of var generally speaking even though i think var has been has had some good with correct decisions and when referees do make mistakes, I think intervening in a thing that has to come to a decision and we're going to slow it down and if it has to come to a pixel, it comes to a pixel, means that you're still trying to decipher what is ultimately up for debate and it's just a matter of how you see things.

58:13Michael Timbs:So that's the problem with VAR in a sport which is as up for interpretation as football is. it's not like i don't know golf or whatever where it's just like it's on pure numbers thing and after that it's that's what the result is this is like up until the result nothing is definitive nothing is certain and nothing is yes no black like binary it's all just half as you say half chance here half chance there and that sort of thing it's all out for interpretation okay uh another thing can can we agree i nothing made me more mad during this game than the fox commentators because they want you to pretend you've just seen one of the goals of the tournament pretending that shelter up meant that as a goal that is a cross oh yeah no that didn't it is the mudrick against arsenal cross come goal cross come shot whatever you want to call it yeah it's not a shot it is a cross can we just agree on that and and what do you make of is pickford does it be pickford because he has no idea that that's gonna happen yeah pickford's not the one i so so uh one i would say that um i didn't hear the fox commentary obviously because i was watching itv however if i did want to watch the fox commentary and footage i would use nordvpn and then really smart really smart yeah it was a cross I think anyone who thinks it wasn't a cross is just a bit silly and stupid like of course it's a cross that he got lucky I rate that he just celebrated it anyway who wouldn't it's a quarterfinal of a world cup scoring against England and what was the last question?