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Podcast Summary: The Art of Charm - Episode with Ethan Kross
Episode Title 3 Powerful Tools to Manage Emotions Under Pressure
Episode Description In this episode of *The Art of Charm*, hosts Johnny and AJ speak with award-winning psychologist and bestselling author Ethan Kross about the science of emotion regulation. Kross discusses insights from his latest book, *Shift: Managing Your Emotions So They Don't Manage You*, detailing how emotions influence our lives significantly and providing practical tools for emotion management.
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Key Topics Discussed
Understanding Emotions
- Definition of Emotions: Emotions are responses to meaningful experiences, either from the external world or internal thoughts.
- Unique Triggers: Each individual's emotional triggers are unique, requiring personalized strategies for emotion management.
The Role of Emotions
- Emotions serve as signals, providing information about our experiences.
- When regulated properly, even traditionally 'negative' emotions (like anger) can be beneficial in certain contexts.
Emotional Resilience
- Connection Between Lifestyle and Emotions: Factors such as sleep, diet, and environment significantly affect emotional resilience.
- Importance of designing one's environment to support emotional well-being.
Tools for Managing Emotions
- Mental Toolbox: Building a variety of strategies for emotion regulation, much like a carpenter needs diverse tools for different tasks.
- Belief in Regulation: Confidence in one's ability to manage emotions is crucial; belief can enhance the effectiveness of coping strategies.
- WOOP Framework:
- Wish: Define a personal goal.
- Outcome: Visualize the successful outcome of achieving that goal.
- Obstacles: Identify potential challenges that might hinder progress.
- Plan: Create an "if-then" plan to navigate obstacles, making emotional regulation more automatic.
Navigating Relationships and Emotions
- The importance of empathy and active listening when supporting others emotionally.
- Distinguishing between when to offer support and when to allow individuals to manage their own emotions.
Avoidance of Emotions
- Strategic Avoidance: Sometimes stepping away from negative emotions temporarily can be beneficial, allowing for a more measured response later.
- Recognizing the balance between chronic avoidance (harmful) and strategic, temporary avoidance (potentially helpful).
Automatic Emotional Regulation
- Elite performers (e.g., Navy SEALs) utilize planning frameworks similar to the WOOP method to ensure emotional regulation becomes instinctive under pressure.
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Key Takeaways
- Emotions are not irrational; they serve important functions and must be managed thoughtfully.
- Each person's emotional landscape is unique, necessitating individualized strategies for effective management.
- The WOOP framework is a structured approach to setting and achieving emotional regulation goals.
- Building emotional fitness requires both belief in one's capabilities and practical tools tailored to individual needs.
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Conclusion Ethan Kross emphasizes the significance of understanding and managing emotions in a way that enhances personal performance and interpersonal relationships. By using tools like the WOOP framework and recognizing the unique nature of emotional responses, individuals can develop a more resilient and fulfilling emotional life.
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Resources Mentioned
- [Shift: Managing Your Emotions So They Don't Manage You](https://ethancross.com)
- Ethan Kross's website: [ethancross.com](https://ethancross.com)
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Additional Notes
- The episode highlights that while emotions are a natural part of life, understanding and managing them effectively can lead to enhanced personal and professional interactions.
- The importance of self-experimentation in finding what emotional regulation strategies work best for the individual was stressed throughout the discussion.
For more insights and to explore the tools discussed, listen to the full episode of *The Art of Charm*.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
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0:45And bring your holiday spirit outdoors with unique decor like one of our Santa inflatables. Whatever your style, find the right pieces at the right prices this holiday season at the Home Depot. So often what happens is people, you know, come across content, they read about it, they hear about it. And then we don't, we don't follow up with it. Like we make this, you say, oh yeah, we're going to be more regulated. We're going to go to the gym. But 50 % of the time, that's a true statistic. We don't follow through with our intentions. And this is a big problem. And scientists have carefully studied it and come up with a framework to help people follow through with their intentions.
1:37All right, let's kick off today's show. Today we're talking with Ethan Cross, one of the world's leading experts on emotion regulation, on how to master your emotions with science. Ethan is an award-winning professor and best-selling author. He's teaching at the University of Michigan's top-ranked psychology department, and he's a return guest to our show. Today, we're discussing his new book, Shift, Managing Your Emotions So They Don't Manage You. He explains how to transform relationships by understanding others' emotional triggers, build a mental toolbox against anxiety, anger, and sadness, and learn a Navy SEAL technique for automatic emotional regulation.
2:14Welcome to the show, Ethan. So great to have you. Great to be here. Always, always a pleasure to speak with you guys. Yeah, last time we were talking about that little voice in your head, And today I want to talk about, I think, something that many of us don't even realize how much runs our lives, and that's emotions. And you write, there's a study in 2015 that showed we're experiencing one or more emotions 90 % of the time. I think that's pretty shocking for a lot of our audience members to hear, especially the really analytical ones who think they, you know, don't really get ruled by their emotions.
2:47Yeah. But we'd love to start with just defining emotions, because I think for a lot of us, that's vague, too, what it actually means. And isn't it wild that it's vague what an emotion is? Like, I kind of always think about this, like we, you know, we, we experience emotions before we're born. According to many scientists, we start experiencing these, these things, these states in the womb. We continue to experience them throughout our lives. And if yet, if you ask people, Hey, what's an emotion? Lots of people have a lot of difficulty answering that question. So without further ado, what is an emotion?
3:25Emotions are our responses to things that are meaningful to us. I use things kind of loosely. These can be experiences we have in the world that are meaningful to us. We're transgressed. Something happens that causes us to be surprised in a positive way. Or they could be things that we imagine in our mind that are meaningful to us, right? We're thinking about important events in the future or reflecting on experiences from the past that have some significance. When we encounter those kinds of meaningful things, whether they're outside us or inside us, an emotional response is activated. So what is that emotional response?
4:07Like what does it consist of? You could think of it as a type of software program being loaded up inside your mind that is designed to help you in the situation you're in. And there are different ways that that software program can help you. So there are physiological sensations that often accompany our emotions. Our ways of thinking are often channeled in particular ways. So if you're experiencing anxiety, for example, AJ, where do you experience anxiety in your body? I feel hotness on my face, tightness in my chest. John, how about you? Yeah. Hair in the back of my neck, ears burning. Okay. No, neither of you said my favorite, which is like gastric distress.
4:59That's my telltale physiological signature. Okay. So that's our body. When we're anxious, do you zoom in and think about the thing that you're worried about really narrowly, sometimes to the exclusion of everything else in your life. Absolutely. So that's your, that's your cognition being harnessed by this emotional response. And then there's, there's our facial displays and our motor behaviors. So, um, you know, palm sweating, oftentimes you could see it on someone's face when they're anxious and that's communicating your state to other people. That's this loosely coordinated response that characterizes the experience of an emotion.
5:39I say loosely because my guess is that both of you have been in a context in which you have, for example, been really pissed off, but you've had a smile on your face. Is that fair to say? Absolutely. You've probably been in a situation where you've wanted to laugh, but you've made it maintain a poker face, right? Like maybe you're, you're doing that right now. And you're looking at me, I don't know. Um, AJ has come through, but John's maintaining his poker face very well. Yeah. So wow. He will, he won't crack. I can't crack him either. He's just not, not giving me anything. There we go. There's a little bit of your, your, your cheekbones going up.
6:18So loosely coordinated, like these different response channels tend to come work together, but sometimes they can cannot. That is an emotion. And here's the really important thing to remember about emotions. When they're triggered in the right proportions, they are helpful, even the bad ones. So anger, as an example, we often think of anger. We hear it's a toxic emotion. We experience anger when our view of what is right or wrong is challenged, right? Like this is not correct. And you can do something to fix the situation. when you encounter a situation that has those features, anger. So I see someone act ugly and disrespectful to someone else I care about.
7:03That's not how things should be. And I can fix that by intervening, right? That's anger. In the right proportions, it's helpful. Too intense, or if it lasts too long, it can become unhelpful. And what this book is all about is those situations when And our emotions are triggered out of proportion. Too intense or not intense enough. They last too long or not long enough. When that happens, what can you do to rein them in? And science offers us lots of different tools that we can use in those circumstances. What I think is so interesting for so many of us, especially in relationships, is those events that trigger different emotions in us.
7:46I'm thinking of my wife and I in L.A. traffic and I can sit there and never honk my horn, get cut off, get stopped, get run off the road. And the second anyone does anything out of sorts, my wife is blasting the horn. She's angry as a driver. And we kind of laugh at each other like when she's in the passenger seat, she'll reach for the horn for me. And I'm like, this isn't bothering me. It's fine. It's not a big deal. So we have these moments where we feel a certain emotion. We want our partner or friend or people that we're in relationships with to feel that same emotion. And we can't feel that same emotion.
8:18It's difficult for us. And then there are other situations where we're triggered with that emotional feeling and the person sitting next to us in the car isn't. And oftentimes that communication distance between us around the emotions creates conflict, difficulties in our relationships. What can we say that science says is going on there where we're like really trying to understand the other person's emotions? when we hear, oh, emotions are universal, but these triggers are so different in so many of us? Well, I think of our emotional lives as being like a fingerprint. They are utterly unique.
8:53And that's an important theme of the book. Yeah, there are lots of similar kinds of emotional responses that we are capable of experiencing, but the triggers that activate those responses can be remarkably different for us, right? Like many situations where I experience zilch, no anxiety whatsoever, where my wife might get quite distressed. For example, I will roll up to the airport when zone 15 is boarding and I will not lose. I don't even walk fast, like no concern. My wife likes to get there two hours before. She likes to take it easy. you know, get a coffee. Now there's a flip side too. When it comes to the health and well-being of kids, I'm a little bit more uptight about some of those issues than my wife is.
9:53My wife's in a healthier space in that regard. So we all have our unique triggers or these profiles of emotional responses. I think this is such an important point for people to remember because this book, Shift, is about how you manage your emotions. And I've spent my career studying that topic. What I often find happening is people often ask me, hey, Professor Cross, what is the one thing people should do to manage your emotions right now? Why would there be one thing that we can all benefit from if all of our emotional lives are so utterly unique? And what we are learning is that there are no single one-size-fits-all solutions.
10:33There are lots of different tools that exist. And I think the key to getting better at managing our emotions is to understand what those different tools are and then start self-experimenting to figure out what are the tools that work best for me. Like a carpenter doesn't show up to a work site with just a hammer and assume they can accomplish every job they have with that one tool. That would not be a very successful carpenter. They show up with a massive toolbox. Same is true for all of us. And so it speaks to this idea that both our emotions and the way we manage them are really quite unique.
11:13And with that range of managing emotions, are some of us more malleable than others? Is there a temperament component? Because, you know, we definitely have friends and family members who might be way more hotheaded and default to an angry state and really feel like they struggle to manage emotions and then others just seems like it comes more effortlessly. Well, there's certainly individual differences in how effective people are at managing their emotions. And that's likely a product of both biology genes, as well as learned experiences, education, the culture from which you came from, like where you taught how to manage your emotions, where you exposed to any of these tools.
11:55And sometimes even our experiences in the world can impact how our genes are expressed. So biology and experience often mix in interesting ways that we're still trying to figure out. So that was a long-winded way of saying, yes, there's absolutely individual differences, but here is what I love. What we have learned is that your biology, your early childhood experiences are not your destiny when it comes to this topic. We can all learn how to manage our emotions more effectively. I think that's a really important message to share with folks because otherwise, you know, we might as well just kind of pack it in.
12:37We all have different physiological predispositions to gaining or losing weight, to building muscle, but we can all benefit from going to the gym, right? And exercising. Now, some of us are going to have to exercise more than others. Certain kinds of fitness routines are going to really kind of mesh with certain individuals more than other people. But there's a path for all of us to become more physically fit. We are learning that the same is true when it comes to the concept of mental fitness. So there are things you can do to get better. Certainly, how we are using our body is going to affect that.
13:21what we eat is going to have an effect on those emotions. Our sleep is going to have an effect on those emotions just as much as the gym is going to have an effect on those emotions. And certainly if we're not eating properly, I mean, I certainly know I can get hangry like anybody else certainly can. And the emotions I feel are quite intense when I haven't eaten. Oh, the hangriness John has come across very clear. Stay away from John when breakfast is skipped. Well, I don't eat breakfast, but yeah. When we're getting close to lunch, you better be careful. Yeah. Well, let me ask you because it's 3.15 where we are right now.
14:07Have you eaten yet? Of course. Okay, good, good. So I just need to know what I have in store for the rest of the conversation. So, yes, all of these experiences have a potential to impact us. You know, food's an interesting in particular example of an experience that has implications for emotion. I actually talk about food as a tool that you can use to shift your emotions in the book. It's a type of sensory shifter. So our senses are how we make sense of the world, how we kind of take in information from the world around us. And we have lots of different senses, sight, sound, touch, smell, taste.
14:52And part of the way that sensation works is through our emotions, right? So when we're taking in information from the world, we want to know, are we navigating to places that are good or bad for us? Are we putting food in our body, things in our body that are good or bad for us? and um and so you can use that to your benefit so like one of my go-to what i call shifters for moving my emotions around is music do you guys listen to music yes absolutely why do you do it exactly that to shift my emotions yeah 100 of people close to 100 of people in research when asked why do you listen to music they say they like the way it makes them feel but if you then look at what people do when they're struggling with anger, anxiety, sadness.
15:41Only between 10 and 30 % of people report strategically going to their phone and turning on a specific song to push them in a particular direction. I mean, have you guys ever experienced a situation where you're not feeling great, you're angry, you're anxious, you're sad, and then a specific kind of song, like, I guess we don't have really, we don't really listen to radios that much anymore, but A song comes across somewhere and it just pushes you in an altogether different emotional space. Have you had that experience? Absolutely. But that goes for all of everything around us has an effect on our emotions and the output.
16:23We consume everything around us. So architecture, paintings, how we keep our house. I mean, I certainly can't work in a cluttered workspace. Yeah. I mean, John, you're speaking. So this is correct, right? There are tools that exist all around us for pushing our emotions around. And I think many of us navigate the world in a way in which we stumble on certain kinds of experiences that push us maybe in a desired or undesired direction. But one of my real hopes with this book is pointing a spotlight on what these different external stimuli are, right? Things around us. What are the things that can push you in this direction versus that?
17:21Because once you understand what those tools are, then you can become a lot more strategic and deliberate. So I'll break that down and be really, really tactical here. Because I know how sensation works, there are certain playlists I have that I go to push me in one direction or another, depending on how I'm feeling. I also know that touch can be a very powerful regulatory tool. Not just do I benefit from affectionate but not creepy touch. You know what I mean, right? Like it has to be in the right context. But it's a way of regulating other people. So if my wife or kids are struggling, like putting an affectionate embrace, a hug or, you know, a rubbing of the back, whatever, like this helps me regulate them.
18:09Art and certain kinds of visual inputs I know can also shift how I feel very powerfully. So I've decorated my home with particular kinds of inputs. I'm designing my space here to provide me with resources, pictures for God's sake. We did this research where we asked people to think about painful experiences from their past. And then in one condition, people saw a picture of a loved one. In another condition, they saw a picture of someone else's loved one. And the whole point here was to say, does just glancing at a photo of someone you are securely attached to, someone who is a source of resilience in your life, does that speed up the pace at which you recover from negative experiences?
18:56And we found that that was true, even when it's a micro glance, like super, super quick. So based on that data, I went out and I bought a ton of picture frames and printed out lots of photos and I decorated my home. So there are resources that exist all around us. I call these external shifters. And, you know, they're just waiting for people to use to push their emotions around. So you're absolutely right.
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23:00we used to run our boot camps in vegas during the pandemic when things started to reopen and vegas is one of those areas where you walk into a casino and you just see how much detail goes in to evoking those emotions and every casino has their own scent their own colors sounds lights all of that to evoke an emotional experience in you and and i happen to enjoy the wind the most so I found that they were selling the scent and I could actually bring the scent to my home. And it evokes that positive emotion. We had an interesting conversation with Gretchen Rubin about my desire for happier, more uplifting music and Johnny's desire for more melancholy and darker music.
23:44So I think so much of our lives, we are looking at reacting to emotions. And if we can shift to being proactive and designing our life for the emotions we want in them, then I think we'll be much more fulfilled. That's a really interesting example you just gave. And that's like, I think, an aha that we might be able to give people. So I want to point something out. So a lot of people, when they're feeling sad, they don't put on music to make them feel better. They reflexively go deeper. Like they find music to kind of push them deeper into that state. Now, I said earlier, I think I said, all emotions are functional, right?
24:23In the right proportions. Sadness, there's a functionality to it. So you experience sadness when you encounter some loss that you can't replace, right? So I'm rejected, I lose somewhere I love, nothing I can do to fix that situation. So you experience sadness, and what that motivates us to do is to turn inward and now try to do the hard cognitive work of like, okay, now that this thing is no longer in my life, let me change the way I think about my circumstances so I can move on. If that's working for you and there's a functionality to that, listen to a doubt. Go deeper into the sadness, right?
25:01But if you've had enough and you don't want to feel more sad, resist the temptation to listen to the more sad music and go in the opposite direction, right? Go for the happy music. There is this thing called the emotional congruency effect where we tend to seek out experiences that match our current emotional state. And sometimes it works for us, but it can also get us into trouble. The other thing that I've noticed with the music aspect and diving into certain emotions, I mean, I know what emotions that I want before I go to select the music. I mean, it's very rare that I'll just hit play and see what happens.
25:46There's usually something that I want to invoke in myself. for an outside observer might feel that it is incredibly sad where I myself I'm finding incredible joy in the midst of it and and will do anything I can to dive further into that and to find some sort of solace it's almost as the music is caressing me you know allowing me to feel good. Certainly, sad country songs will certainly do that. A lot of the heavier, moodier stuff that I listen to certainly does that. And it's an experience that I'm having solo. Well, AJ mentioned that he knows what I listen to. It can be highly emotive and sometimes forcing you to feel things that maybe you're not ready to feel in that moment.
26:45Now for myself, I certainly like to see some people's faces when I do that, but I would not make them suffer through it too long. Well, I mean, you seem to possess a pretty good self-awareness about your emotional experience and what works for you. And the invitation I like to give everyone is, you got to learn about the tools that work best for you. And that requires some self-experimentation, which of course we've all done to some extent in our lives, but I think being more deliberate about it is really helpful. The other aspect of that is I'm, I'm also a musician that my, I grew up in a musician oriented household.
27:30So there's also an aspect of being able to drive and control emotions by creating music as well. And certainly, I mean, there doesn't get anything better than being able to perform that to a crowd that is very eager to have that experience. And that gets to also, I mean, this phenomenon that I find so fascinating of emotional contagion, how emotions can spread. When you are performing, you have the opportunity to, It's not just your instrument that you're playing, right? You're playing the emotions of other people. And that's a powerful experience, as you know, being in front of the crowd, right?
28:16Like I do it in a very different context when I'm publicly speaking, but I'm trying to invoke emotion in different ways with different stories that I'm telling or terrible jokes and so forth. but you can feel how you harness the emotions of a group. And that's a powerful, powerful experience to have. Well, the same thing goes with public speaking. There's always the people in the room who may or may be investigating, but they're not fully on board with the experience that's about to happen, but who inevitably get swept up in that emotional contagion and go on for that ride unexpectedly or didn't.
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29:03They may have been skeptical, but then have let go in order to feel everything. And that's when you win those people over. It's huge. It's huge because basically you're forcing the issue. And it's like, this is what we're going to play and you're going to like it. And if you're in this room, you have no choice but like it. And you may be standing there right now with your arms crossed looking at me skeptically, but by a quarter way into the set, we're going to move you. Except you're not saying any of that. You're actually doing it, right? And this is the power of social forces, which I also talk about in the book, right?
29:48Like emotional. It's not just the environment around us physically or the tools we're using on our own, of our own accord. it's also our relationships with other people. When I used to teach social psychology, this is a long time ago, to demonstrate the power of other people for emotions, I would play a funny sitcom clip in two different conditions. In one condition, I would play it normally. In the other condition, I would strip away the last track that accompanies it. And it's wild. Like you watch a, I mean, I'm going to date myself here, but like an episode of Friends, for example, without the last track, it's not, you know, the funny factor goes way down.
30:34So we're constantly referencing other people to understand how we should feel about ourselves as particularly true. And we're in situations where it's not exactly clear how we should feel or if we're in the presence of people who we respect and admire. We're referencing them all the time. And knowing that is also, I think, a really important principle to be aware of if you have any plans to navigate the world as a human being, right? Because like we're a social species. Yeah. And with that, I know many members in our audience have started families, They're in management roles. They care deeply about their friends and recognizing that those around us are struggling with emotions or having emotional reactions to things that we would love to support them.
31:25And how can we become better emotional advisors and support those around us, recognizing the importance of relationships and managing emotions? There are two sides to this question. So number one is recognizing that productive emotional conversations, there are two phases to them. First, you want to listen and acknowledge and empathize with the person who's coming to you with a problem, right? That helps them recognize they're not alone. They feel connected to you, provides them with a sense of comfort and support that is useful, strengthens the bonds between you. So once you do that, in technical terms, we call that satisfying another person's social and emotional needs, then, all right, now we've got to start working on the problem.
32:19So now you start working with the person to help broaden their perspective to ultimately help them think through this problem so they can move on with their lives. Now, depending on the person you're talking to and the issue they're struggling with, some people are going to need more time in that part one zone of just you listening and being a good year for them to just get it out to. Sometimes people stay in that zone for several days, right? Or if it's a really big problem, more than that. But you always eventually want to get to the working through that problem. And this often breaks down in two ways.
32:57Some people think that their goal, their role as an advisor is just to listen and let the other person vent. There's been a lot of research on this. And what we've learned is that venting is good for relationship bonds. But if that is all you do, you tend not to get through the problem. In fact, you just keep the problem active. So that doesn't work. The other thing that doesn't work is someone comes to you with a problem and you immediately jump into advice giving mode. AJ, really? You're okay. hey, so you're having some trouble with your wife and your newborn. Here's what you do. ABC, I have a book on the topic.
33:30You'll be right as rain tomorrow. We call people like that jerks, a-holes, like use your favor. It's dismissive. It's condescending. So you want to do both of those things in that sequence. So that's one important nugget to be aware of when you think about how to be good advisors to someone else. The other thing that's really important about being a good advisor is, is someone coming to you and asking to talk about a problem? Or do you see someone struggling and do you volunteer to help them with the issue? There's been a lot of research on this. And what we have learned is that if you see someone struggling and they don't ask you for help, volunteering that support can blow up in your face because what it does is it communicates to the person that they're not capable of handling their own affairs.
34:30And we're all motivated to think that we can manage our own, our own circumstances. So you see this happening a lot between parents and kids. And this is true across the lifespan, by the way, like kids get defensive when they're, when they're little, when like I have younger children, they really don't like me offering advice to them when they're, if they haven't asked me for it, but it can also be true later on. So you've got, um, you've got a newborn, you said, AJ, um, my guess is that maybe parental figures in your life have volunteered some advice about how to deal with the baby sometimes and loads.
35:05This can be sometimes, you know, it's sad because you know, they need well, But it can be annoying sometimes, right? Yeah. Especially now with all the latest science and a lot of those things we just don't do anymore because they've been shown to be dangerous for newborns. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So you really want to tread carefully here. The good news is that there's a way of getting people support in these circumstances when they don't ask for support. It's called being an invisible supporter. So what does invisible support mean? It means getting people resources they can benefit from, but without shining a spotlight on the fact that you're doing it.
35:46There are many forms this can take. I'll use you as an example, AJ. Maybe it's hard being a new parent, right? You've got your day job. Now you've got your 24-hour job. Lots of things going on. I don't know. Send you diapers for three or four weeks to buy. I just have them show up or have dinner delivered, right? Like just one less thing that you need to worry about, give someone what we call this instrumental support. So if I know my team is struggling with a deadline, I'll sometimes just have the pizza show up for them. They don't have to worry about going to dinner, right? One less thing that takes the volume down on their distress.
36:29Let's say someone is struggling with a skill that is really important on my team, like public speaking. it's plainly obvious that they're not excelling in this regard. They haven't asked me for help. What I will do before I directly intervene and, hey, I have some ideas how we can get better. I've noticed, you know, you could be a little bit more succinct. We'll have a team meeting and it'll be focused on how to be better communicators. And we'll go around the table and we'll share out one or two best practices that we implement in our own lives to improve. What I'm doing there is I'm getting the person the tools they can benefit from, but I'm not targeting it.
37:08I do this with my kids. If I know my kids are getting worked up about a sports event or something at school, I might at the dinner table just talk about these new findings, as dorky as that sounds, but I'll bring up a conversation like, I just found out about this. Did you have any idea? it's putting the information on their radar, but it's not singling them out. And then of course, there's the affectionate but not creepy embrace, which is another way of helping someone. So those are the two pieces I think that you really want to be aware of when you think about how to help other people, right?
37:48There's a formula for how to give them support when they ask for it, first listen, then advise. And then if they don't ask for support and they're struggling, help them invisibly. You know that sinking feeling when your brilliant idea gets ignored in a meeting only to be repeated by someone else minutes later, and then you receive slack seeking more of their input? Or when you see less qualified team members building effortless relationships with leadership while you feel invisible? The problem isn't your intelligence or technical skills. Harvard Research confirms what we've seen with over 11 ,000 professionals.
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41:34No spin, no judgments, just the facts straight from the experts for more than 140 beverage ingredients. Visit goodtoknowfacts.org. Looking at the external forces, I think we did a great job exploring them. I know for a lot of our listeners, they want those internal tools. They don't have that emotional advisor. Their environment might be out of their control. but there are certainly things we can do internally to start to manage our emotions in ways that are more impactful in our lives. And there's one great example that you give in the book of the snake experiment and the importance of beliefs on those emotions.
42:11And I'd love for you to unpack that for our audience. So beliefs, just recognizing that you can control your emotions is so unbelievably important. You know, I like to think of the ability to manage your emotions well as having two components, belief and ability. Let's use the example of getting physically fit. If I don't think there's anything I can do to get physically fit, I can know about all the different exercise routines and nutritional regimens in the world. I'm not going to avail myself of those because I don't think they're going to make any difference. The flip side is, let's say I believe that I can get physically fit, but I don't know how any of the machines in the gym work.
43:05I don't know the difference between protein and carbohydrates, processed foods, or organic. I'm not going to be very effective and I might even hurt myself. So you want to have both the motivation, the belief that you can do something that energizes us. And then you also want to know about these different tools. So we've talked about some of these tools already, sensation, music, other people, the world around us. There's also a boatload of other things like managing your attention or perspective. But belief is where it all starts. And I was really shocked earlier in my career when I came across a statistic that documented what percentage of adolescents in one study did not think it was possible to manage their emotions.
43:58It was 40 % of the sample. That floored me. But consider the fact that I'm a guy who has in his email signature, a title that says director of the emotion and self-control laboratory. Like I've devoted my life to understanding how people can manage their emotions. And yet here almost half of the sample says they don't think it's possible. So I've spent a lot of time thinking, how can that be? And here's how I've made sense of it. There are many facets of our emotional lives that we cannot, in fact, control. Dark thoughts pop into our heads all the time. We don't know why we're thinking these things.
44:45They just kind of pop up and lead us to feel a certain way. Have either of you ever experienced a dark thought that just spontaneously pops up in your head. Absolutely. Right. This is a universal. It's not just thoughts that spontaneously pop up in our other encounters we have in the world around us that automatically trigger emotional responses. My favorite example of this is, you know, brushing up against someone who doesn't smell very good. Like that activates a very potent emotional response within the flip side is also true. I walk by someone who smells great, like, wow, positivity. I mean, you described the Wynn hotel doing this, right?
45:23Like lots of hotels capitalize on this feature of how we work. We have no control over so much of what is automatically activated. But once the emotion is activated, then we enter into our playground for pushing our emotions around. And that's where all the different tools I talk about really have their value. So I love this explanation because I think it honors the fact that it makes sense why some people think you can't manage your emotions. If you think about whether we can control what's automatically triggered, no, we can't always control that. But once it is triggered, we can get in there.
46:07The other important take home from that explanation that I love to leave people with is I think that should be liberating for people because when I experience like a thought that I am ashamed of or wouldn't want to share with someone else, like I don't get down on myself for having that thought. I don't think to myself, oh my God, what is wrong with you? You are such a worthless human being. As many people are apt to do when they find that ugly thought coming into their head. I realize this is just how the brain works. like we all experience that kind of inner experience at times. And as long as I don't act on that thought, all good.
46:49If I act on it, different situation. So that's the role that beliefs play in our emotional lives. I mean, just hearing that statistic alone, it makes me want to inquire with a lot of questions to get to the answer of why does 40 % feel that way. The other thing that I want to bring up, because I mean, there's so many variables there. The other thing I want to bring up is, you know, we may have these dark thoughts, but, you know, sometimes it can be due to, I mean, if we're influenced by everything around us, It's hard to say what triggered those thoughts. And we have millions of years of evolution and experiences through our ancestral path.
47:47I mean, who knows what gets triggered or why we have some of those thoughts? For myself, I mean, again, I love diving into those and exploring those. And what can I get to that may have triggered that or at least got me thinking in those terms? Yeah. Well, I think that's like, I mean, that can be a profitable inner exploration. You're absolutely right. There are so many different factors that can automatically trigger a certain kind of thought or emotional response. And the point of this is to say that we don't control all those experiences. You actually wouldn't want to be, from an evolutionary point of view, you want to be able to automatically experience emotional responses really fast and in response to certain kinds of experiences in the world.
48:42That gives us a survival of advantage in many cases, not all cases, right? But what's cool about the human mind and brain is we evolve this capacity not only to experience these automatically triggered emotions that can often serve us well, we also co-evolve this elaborate apparatus that allows us to rein in those responses when they become too big. So that's also evolution working here. I'll give you one example that I've interrogated profitably. I tell this anecdote in the book. I think I tell them the book. I've certainly spoken about it. I will often have the experience when I'm working out in the gym of imagining like when I'm carrying a dumbbell from one side of the room to the other, it's like the weight wrap of dropping the dumbbell on someone's face.
49:33And this is like, this is not a pleasant thought. It's very vivid. It's, you know, on the surface, you might think, what is wrong with this guy? He's imagining doing significant harm to someone else. My interpretation of why I experienced that automatic thought is I really don't want to harm someone else. I can be a little klutzy at times. My hands are sweaty. So actually like, and I'm carrying a potential like murder weapon around with me in the gym. So maybe I should switch hands, push the dumbbell to the far side and squeeze it a little tighter or take the far route around to the dumbbell rack.
50:13That explanation works for me. And I think you can often come up with those stories to explain why we have certain emotions. We are a storytelling species, right? And if you come up with a good story, great.
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51:33I know for myself, when I'm feeling a lot of difficult emotions, I like to grab my PS4 headset, walk away from my wife, flip it on and try to play a game of FC to get away from whatever that trigger was, whatever that environmental factor or thing at work. But so often we hear avoidance of emotions is a bad thing. Is there a balance there and can avoidance actually be a good thing around managing difficult emotions? Yeah. So this is one of the big myths I try to bust in the book. Um, you know, we have a tendency in our culture to throw the baby out with the bathwater. So, you know, the pendulum just swings so wildly.
52:12We learned about something that's good or not good. And we just, we just, you know, go in the other direction. Um, chronically avoiding things, not good. What do I mean by chronically avoiding? You have this decision where whenever I experience anything problematic, I'm not going to address it. I'm going to look the other way. I'm going to engage in risky avoidant behaviors that are going to make me feel good in the moment, but take my mind off it. Alcohol, drugs, sex, all the risky sex, that kind of stuff. Lots of data linking chronic avoidance, right? Doing that over and over and over rigidly with bad outcomes.
52:55That is indisputable. We go from that finding, though, to often saying you should never avoid your feelings. This is not true, right? And we can easily come up with counterexamples. What we have learned is that sometimes the ability to strategically avoid, to take a break from things and maybe come back to them later on can be unbelievably helpful, right? So if I get into an argument with my wife, I have learned that although I would like to resolve the issue immediately right away, because I was socialized to the moment a problem flares up, you address it. Not always so helpful, right? Sometimes taking a few hours away, diving into my work, and then coming back to it later.
53:39I come back to the problem. We're able to have a much more thoughtful discussion. Sometimes I come back and both of us are like, what, who cares? What happened? It's not even a big deal. So there's research which shows that this capacity to be flexible with our attention can be really, really useful. And I think reminding folks of that can be helpful too, because I can't tell you how many people like they hear, oh, you're distracting and I think you're doing something wrong. Nothing wrong if it's working for you. Right. Like that's something to remember. There's nothing wrong if you are benefiting from it and not experiencing some negative consequence.
54:21Well, so much of what we covered today involves some effort on our part, being thoughtful, organizing our environment, looking at internal tools. And yet so often in pop culture and sports, we look up to those people who in the highest amount of pressure seem to not face any of those emotions, not be dealing with that internal turmoil. Is there anything we can do to actually make it more automatic in these moments? Yeah. So this is, this is something that I, I end the book talking about and, um, I feel pretty strongly about the importance of spending some time really thinking about how to do this because so often what happens is people, you know, come across content, they read about it, they hear about it.
55:07And then we don't, we don't follow up with it. Like we make this, you say, oh yeah, we're going to be more regulated. We're going to go to the gym, but 50 % of the time, that's a true statistic. We don't follow through with our intentions. And this is a big problem. And scientists have carefully studied it and come up with a framework to help people follow through with their intentions. There are frameworks that allow us to take our knowledge and automatically apply it in our lives. So you learn about these tools, how do you make it so you can apply them automatically? And one of the best frameworks I'm aware of is called WHOOP for short.
55:44It's an acronym, W-O-O-P. And here's how it works. You sit down and you just write out a few things. W, what's your wish? What's the goal you have? What are you hoping to accomplish? Right. I want to be more regulated for my kids. Annoy me. That sounds insensitive, but any parent, you know what I mean? All right. That's the goal. Got it. Let's go to the next to the O, the first O. Outcome. What if you are successful? What's going to happen? Well, we're going to have a happier home. I'm going to be more connected with my kids. I'm going to be less stressed out. So you were trying to do next is really kind of motivate yourself to pursue this goal, like really energizing you to convey that this is important stuff.
56:29Got it. I'm committed. Now, let's go to the second O. Obstacles. What are the things that are going to get in the way of you achieving this goal and the outcomes you hope for? Well, when my kids talk disrespectfully to one another, to me, it's just like I feel the artery in my neck beginning to pulse and I become flustered and red and I just respond very intensely. Okay, now I know what to watch out for, which brings us to the final P, the plan. It's not any plan. It's what we call an if-then plan. if my kids act disrespectfully and I feel like my neck is going to explode, then I'm going to go to PS4 and talk to and call my wife.
57:16So you plug in the strategies that you're going to use there. What that final thing does, it establishes a mental link between a situation and an action, a behavior. And you rehearse that a few times so that when you find yourself in that situation, you're flustered. It's not like, oh, what am I supposed to do? You know exactly what you're supposed to because you've practiced it a few times. So what's interesting is scientists have spent decades doing experiments to flesh out how this works and showing it helps people in all these different contexts. The Navy SEALs, one of the most successful organizations in the world, do something remarkably similar.
57:58Before a mission, they sit around in a room, they identify what is our goal, the W. What do we hope to accomplish? Then they go through all of the different ways things might go wrong. What are the different obstacles we might encounter? A landmine, operatives here that we didn't expect to be here, hostages. And for every one of those obstacles, every one of those if, if this happens, they come up with a plan. If this happens, then I'm going to do this. If this happens, then I'm going to do that. And then they go around and they like Socratic style call on one another to make sure everyone's on the same page.
58:36This is how you make regulation automatic. Now, this is effortful, what we've just described. You can't do this for every single emotional context in your life, but you can do it for the important ones. And I think we've all experienced really important situations in which we've hoped to be better regulators. And if that's true of you, you know, sit down with this whoop exercise, write it out, takes a couple minutes and see what it does for you. Yeah, it's so remarkable. We've been doing this with our X Factor Accelerator members on our monthly goal setting exercise. And that not thinking about the potential obstacles or having a plan is like such an aha of like, oh, OK, in the past, when I've tried this goal, lose weight, go to the gym more, watch Netflix less.
59:23I never really thought about the potential obstacles, but now I can look at the past and all the times that I've struggled, identify, okay, well, this got in the way and, oh, I didn't have the right shoes or I didn't do laundry the day before. And now I have a plan. Always make sure that all my gym clothes are clean on Sunday, so I don't have to worry about it during the week. And it makes accomplishing that goal so much easier. But we often just neglect thinking about those obstacles because we get so excited about this new shiny goal that we have for ourselves that's in line with our core values and who we want to be.
59:54Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I find that science compelling. And like some, a lot of people don't think about the obstacles. You also have some people who just think about, who just think about the obstacles without thinking about the outcomes, right? So then they're getting depressed because, oh my God, there's so many things that stand in the way and they're not juicing themselves up with, but if I achieve this, what can I, you know, how will it be? So you got to do both of those things. And that's where Whoop is so cool, right? it, it guides you to work through that whole process. Well, thank you for stopping by and sharing your latest book with us.
1:00:32Where can our audience find out more about the book and the work that you do, Ethan? Well, thanks again for having me. Always a pleasure. It is, they can go to my website, www.ethancross.com and they can find links to the book there and wherever books are sold. Great. Thank you again for joining us. Hey, thanks for having me.
1:01:01And now we'd like to showcase one of our X Factor Accelerator members. Take it away, Chris. Hey, everyone. My name is Chris Raftery. I'm a financial advisor, and I joined X Factor to build better relationships with my friends at work and also with my family. X Factor really helped me not just with the course material, but also in helping me implement all of these different teachings, giving me an outlet and a network to practice these things, to troubleshoot in a way a lot of situations I was going through and really provide some real world applications and have fun along the way too. And the thing I'm looking forward to the most is continuing to develop.
1:01:45They say iron sharpens iron and being able to work with the other guys in the group has really proved that. And I'm looking forward to continuing to build better relationships with the existing folks that I hold near and dear to me, but also meeting new people out there. Looking forward to hopefully meeting you guys in the future as you join the X Factor. It's worth it. Thank you for the kind words. And it was an honor and a pleasure working with you two. and good luck to you and all of your future endeavors. If you've gotten value out of this or any of our podcasts, please head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show.
1:02:21It means the world to us and it helps others find the show. Before we head out, a huge thank you to our producers, Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery. Until next week, go out and make it epic.
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From the publisher
This week on The Art of Charm, we're joined by award-winning psychologist and bestselling author Ethan Kross to explore the fascinating science of emotion regulation. In his newest book Shift: Managing Your Emotions So They Don't Manage You, Ethan reveals how emotions secretly drive 90% of our lives—and how mastering them can unlock performance, connection, and fulfillment.
We dig into why your emotions feel so overwhelming, why trying harder isn’t the solution, and how building your own mental "toolbox" is the real path to emotional fitness. Whether you're leading teams, raising a family, or striving for personal excellence, this conversation will give you the tactical edge you didn't even realize you needed.
[00:00:00] What exactly are emotions — and why are they so hard to define?
[00:06:35] How emotions are helpful — until they aren't
[00:08:33] Why emotional triggers are unique to each person (and why empathy matters)
[00:12:14] The surprising connection between sleep, food, and your emotional resilience
[00:16:31] How to design your environment for automatic emotional shifts
[00:28:20] The secret to becoming a better emotional advisor for friends, family, and teams
[00:37:05] Why belief in your ability to regulate emotions is just as important as skill
[00:45:51] When emotional avoidance is actually healthy
[00:48:39] How elite performers make emotional regulation automatic (WOOP framework explained)
Emotions aren't irrational noise — they're signals. But they must be managed with tools, not brute force.
Your triggers, emotional responses, and coping strategies are as unique as your fingerprint. Stop copying other people's solutions.
Mastering emotions is like mastering fitness: belief, awareness, and deliberate practice matter more than natural talent.
The environment you live and work in can either sabotage or support your emotional state — design it thoughtfully.
Emotional support isn’t just about listening; it’s about knowing when (and how) to move from empathy to problem-solving.
You can't think your way through every emotional challenge — but you can train yourself to act automatically under pressure.
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Shift: Managing Your Emotions--So They Don't Manage You
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