3 Viral Mental Health Myths Debunked | Joe Nucci

26:13Or is that just living life? being a human. Something I write about in the book is, I think it's so important we talk about how we talk about these things and why it's so great to be talking to you too and having these conversations with so many people because I think that if we want to move mental health culture in a healthy direction, I think it would be great if the typical person understood that emotional regulation during a trauma response is just as valid as an insulin shot for diabetes. but what seems to be happening is that people invoke it as a way to not have hard conversations to not change and grow to avoid responsibility and i think that it's really really tough because no one wants to be the asshole that's kind of like no like this is like a trauma response like you have to fix like when someone's in pain we're empathetic creatures like we want to like you know like validate that and i'm not even saying that we shouldn't do that but it's it's so much if we're going to, we're going to de-stigmatize mental health and, um, kind of bring the whole public into this, these conversations that my field has been having long since before I entered it.

27:21You know, I think that we have to be, we have to be telling them all the things, not just the things that are, that are comfortable. Going along with that idea of, you know, trauma, using trauma as a way to absolve you of actually working on improving or managing the situation. It goes along with myth number nine, this, your diagnosis is your identity, where we've started to build an ethos around like just get the diagnosis and then now we can use that in every context to say, oh, I just have ADHD. That's why I'm treating you poorly. Or hey, I have ADHD. That's why I can't get my job done and not actually do the work to actually deal with the mental illness.

27:57This goes back to something we were saying at the beginning where it's like people want to more deeply understand themselves. And I think that's a very like universal human, not just desire, but a need. Like people need to understand themselves and they need language for it. When you make a diagnosis your identity, though, I think what you're missing is that as a practitioner, I use diagnosis as a framework to inform your treatment plan. So you either do not have the diagnosis anymore, or if the diagnosis is something that, quote unquote, cannot be fixed, like ADHD or autism or something like that.

28:32But how do you integrate this understanding of how your nervous system works so you can live a more adaptive life, a more functional life. That's what diagnosis is for. And what's really interesting, I think, is that so many practitioners, both on and off social media, actually shirk the idea of diagnosis altogether. And yet we're living in this moment where then people are actually clinging to these labels. So it's a really funny conversation for me to have because on one hand, I don't diagnose a ton in my practice. I don't need to. I don't accept insurance. If you accept insurance, you're getting diagnosed with something like you have an F code, you know?

29:09So there's also that conversation where it's like, this is for insurance companies and bills and, and all this like criteria. Right. But I think that for me, you know, the, the best part about getting diagnosed with ADHD, which I am diagnosed with is that I now live a life where when I told some of my colleagues that I have it before I started making videos about it, a lot of them were like, you do? And it was like, yeah, I do. And it is hard sometimes. I have to manage it. I have to have responsibility for it. But I think the evidence that the therapy worked is that it's not super quote unquote obvious.

29:43It's not completely running my life. I am running it. And so particularly young people, did you catch this trend? This was maybe over COVID or just after, but people on TikTok were pretending to have diagnoses, building massive followings, and then letting everyone know. It's like, oh, just kidding. That was completely made up. As the weather finally cools down, I'm swapping in the pieces that actually get the job done. Warm, durable, and built to last. And Quince delivers every time. Quince has all the false staples you actually want to wear on repeat, like 100 % Mongolian cashmere sweater starting at just$60, classic fit denim, and real leather and wool outerwear that looks sharp and holds up.

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33:03It's finding people that you resonate with as obscure as their viewpoint may be. The algorithm is working to get you hooked to that similarity, and it's going to continue to show you more of that. I think the deception around that and wrapping your identity in that and, again, not managing it if that's truly your diagnosis, that's the real harm being done not only to yourself but to everyone else you're in a relationship with. Well, there's a little bit more that goes along with that as well. is we certainly know that these social media and these apps encourage behavior that's not very productive or helpful.

33:41And with TikTok, it's incredibly easy to build an audience when you're getting sympathy likes and follows. And that is rampant. In fact, it's encouraged. There is many videos talking about how to build an audience and it is exploit whatever weakness you have for sympathy. And of course, if that's how people know you and you build a following and people like, what is it an identity now becomes an identity because that's how millions of people might see you when your friends are like, oh, that's just Jeff. He's normal. But I have a million people who think I'm, you know, name the, this week's ailment.

34:23I agree with everything you're saying, but I do want to add, there's the, we're talking about this from like the individual level and we can, you know, maybe have sympathy for the teenager that's like experimenting with identities and trying to figure themselves out. And we can criticize the person that is, you know, maybe intentionally kind of brand building off of like a flaw or an imperfection and then normalizing it and glorifying it. But I think my, the mental health field also has some responsibility here because before self-help became trendy on social media, we started expanding definitions around mental illness.

34:55So So for example, I think it was when the DSM-3 became four, I want to say, they completely reorganized all the criteria for autism spectrum disorder. And now this word is a term, like I saw Bill Gates gave an interview where he was like, well, I would probably be diagnosed with that. And Elon Musk is on the spectrum. So it fits these two incredibly, regardless of what you think of them, incredibly smart and powerful and successful people. But then it also is a word that applies to people that actually need disability accommodations to keep a job. Is that inclusivity? Or is this complete incoherence disguised as psychobabble?

35:38It sounds very convincing, but it's not. My understanding is the reason it got expanded is that people at the APA wanted to be able to cover more people because maybe someone like a Bill Gates or Elon Musk could actually benefit from a little bit of therapy and learning about their nervous system. And I think that's absolutely great. But then when you let it bleed into the cultural conversation, now this one word means so many things. And so I think that's something that's important for us to keep in mind. I think it's easy to just blame individuals when we're talking about psychobabble for just the misuse or they're just trying to do an appeal to authority, but also the way psychologists and mental health professionals have used terms like depression or anxiety.

36:18I don't know if you're familiar with them. Nick Haslam, I think he's a researcher based out of Australia. He's found that it's not just that we use these words interchangeably, depression and anxiety with nervousness and sadness. It's actually like, well, that's actually how we've expanded the definition in some of the literature. And it's important to call out because the more the psychobabble gets into the scientific literature and it's already there, to be clear, it's just going to become more incoherent and actually not helpful. And that's not good. I mean, once you throw out any scientific validity the field has, I think most people will agree that that's not a good thing.

36:54your myth 14 awkward has now become neurodivergent is this exact expansion that we're talking about where yeah there are moments where i might appear awkward and i my social anxiety might get the best of me but that doesn't then make me autistic and we've started to borrow this label and bring it into just normal occurrences of just being human where hey it was overwhelming to be in such a large room of people you didn't know, you felt awkward. And now, oh, well, my friend is neurodivergent because that's the new term that's become popularized. That sounds a lot better than autistic. It's also a diagnosis that is more readily attached to identity because if you are correctly diagnosed with something on the autism spectrum, it does tell you a little bit more about who you are and how you work.

37:44It's a neurodevelopmental condition. And I use the word condition because even though it's classified as like a disorder in the dsm i'm not necessarily sure that's true if it's not leading to disordered function or actually like impacting you in in your life and i think that regardless of if it's if it's something like anxiety that can be cured or something like autism i don't think the way to support your friend is socially awkward is to then say like um oh that's okay like don't speak up like don't go talk to that person that you like Like, like, don't do that. Like be comfortable. It's actually, I think the way forward is like, well, how can you do this?

38:20Not just in spite of your anxiety or your neurodivergency, but how do you integrate it? How do you actually invite that part of you up in like the front seat of your car? And it's kind of like, well, this is something I'm going to, I'm going to lead with. If someone is flirting with me that likes me and they own that they're awkward or they're like, frankly, like I am on the spectrum. And so like, I can't tell whether you like me back, please tell me. There's actually something great about just owning it and pushing forward anyways as best you can versus not engaging in life or just staying comfortable and staying in the background.

38:54It feels better in the moment to seek the certainty of the diagnosis than to actually just deal with the awkwardness that you might be feeling in passing. So the uncertainty tied to it will often lead us to seek out the diagnosis, even if it's not there, because it allows us to feel better knowing, okay, well, I'm just neurodivergent. That's why I feel awkward in these situations. Not that I'm actually doing anything about it to live the life that I want. Listen, if your diagnosis is accurate, that is usually a great comfort to people in therapy because it lets them name it. It lets them embark on what is hopefully a successful treatment plan.

39:31and it lets them be able to kind of explain to themselves and others like, you know, why they feel like they've been messing up or why they haven't been able to accomplish the goals that they value. And so I think that like a lot of therapists are anti-diagnosis. Like I said, I'm not. I think diagnosis can be really great if it's accurate, but it's the start of the journey. It's not the destination. What has inflamed a lot of this when it comes to personal relationships and what we do around helping those in their life have a more vibrant social life and develop better relationship in their life, unfortunately, is we've increased the number in psychobabble of calling people sociopaths or calling people narcissists.

40:13And there's this new app, T, where we can go and label men as having these characteristics as never date them and write them off. Wait, I'm sorry. What is this? I missed this one. So there's a new app called Tea where women can anonymously write about these exact things that we're talking about, that this person's neurodivergent or this person's a sociopath or this person's a narcissist. And other women can use the app as they're going around online dating profiles and say, okay, well, if enough women said this man's a narcissist, then I will avoid dating him. So it's a way for women to protect themselves.

40:48And I think at its core, it has a great desire to be beneficial in this dating marketplace. But unfortunately, with the rise of psychobabble, everyone's ex is a narcissist now. And everyone who's wronged you is a sociopath. And once we start throwing these labels around, we're actually doing real harm to people having great relationships in their life, having success romantically, having success in their social life. And I have no doubt that in certain instances, you probably did encounter a narcissist or you probably did encounter a sociopath or a psychopath. But the myth that everyone who's wronged you is this or everyone who's shown that behavior in that situation is that is really detrimental to building healthy relationships in your life.

41:30That's very interesting that this has become an app. In a perfect world, the app would just be used to warn people of the very real narcissists and psychopaths that are out there on the dating market for people to avoid. however it is my understanding and both personal and clinical experience with these populations that if they catch wind that they're on this app that would actually be very scary i'm thinking of the narcissistic and psychopathic like people i've encountered in my life i wouldn't personally i just wouldn't want to have my name associated with some sort of like a posting or a story in which they could identify me.

42:14Because if we're talking about the personality disorder, they can be vicious. They can be super, super scary. So my first thought is, are these women okay? I want to talk about how maybe they're misusing it in a second, but my first thought is, oh my God, that's not even the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario for me is like, oh, this is an accurate assessment of who this person is. And they catch wind and they want revenge. I mean, particularly someone who's narcissistic is going to be fairly reputation conscious. And so that's number one. Number two is, look, I mean, we all learned it when we watched Mean Girls, right?

42:57Men do this too, but women will use reputational harm as a way to advance their own personal agendas. It's just something that happens for better or for worse. And so with the term being so watered down, the thing what I write about in the book, and then what I hope to kind of normalize about the narcissism conversation is that a lot of psychologists, a lot of therapists, a lot of writers on this subject actually believe that it's a spectrum and that it is actually okay, even healthy to have some narcissistic traits, people in media, in our profession, like admiration, like to feel like we're associated with important people?

43:37Is that narcissistic? It's in the symptom cluster, depending on how loosely you want to define it. A lot of people who are surgeons tend to be more narcissistic, but you know what? If you're going to be cutting into my brain because I have a tumor, I want you to have a little bit of a God complex. I want you to have a little something to prove our leaders. I don't think it's necessarily a net negative trait. There's a difference between liking admiration and then being drawn to maybe like a career that will give that to you. And like when you don't have it, like you're so fragile that like you go into a complete meltdown.

44:14Right. There's a really, really big difference there.

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45:03With OfferWatch. Wanna have CarMax pick it up from your driveway? Get it done to it. You wanna do it? So, wanna drive? CarMax. Pickup not available everywhere. Restrictions and fee may apply. In processing breakups, in processing things that you perceived as someone wronging you, emotions are high. And it's very easy for you to default to your perspective on that. and with the negative emotions that you're feeling towards that other person to reach for, again, that certainty of this person was the sociopath and this person was the narcissist and what they did to me. When maybe the other person is nowhere near that, but in that particular situation and the way that things unfolded, it may have appeared that way.

45:49But you labeling that with no actual medical background, no understanding of what an actual narcissist is, we've watered this down as a label to write people out of our lives, whether that's on an online dating app called T where it's write these men out of our lives, whether it's to explain away those first dates that were awkward or weren't fun or comfortable or what we were looking for. And unfortunately, it does carry reputational harm. And it also keeps you from having healthy relationships when you're constantly looking out for the narcissists and the sociopaths, when the numbers are there that they're not as apparent as we like to believe based on social media.

46:29There's just not that many psychopaths and narcissists walking around damaging people. Are you too familiar with the distinction of vulnerable narcissist? No, I'm not. It's the idea that the classic manifestation of narcissism is someone who's very grandiose, kind of like hoity-toity, like I'm better than you, I'm superior. But there's another way to play that superiority game. And one way is to do that through essentially victimhood. And so it's kind of like everyone else is so horrible and awful, like poor me. And I do wonder, and it is a question that a lot of people have, whether or not they are therapists or work in the field, all these people that can't stop talking about it, that can't stop talking about narcissism that have dated like two dozen of them, like at a certain point, there is a common denominator.

47:24How I work with patients, if the topic comes up that maybe they're dating someone narcissistic, I do a few things. I say like, yeah, maybe they actually do have sprinkles of narcissism in their personality, but is it like the main flavor of the soup, right? Or is it a sprinkle? And if it's a sprinkle, is it helpful to think about it in terms of narcissism? Or can we say they are immature, selfish, avoidant. When they're relationally stressed, do they get grandiose? So this is something else I talk about in the book. Some people get very insecure when they're relationally stressed. Some people kind of like the narrative is like, let's say you and I are dating and then things are going a little south.

48:05My mind might go to, oh, I'm never going to find love. I'm not lovable. I can't do anything right. What's wrong with me? It's a very normal reaction. Then there's this other side of the coin, which is just kind of like, well, AJ's a jerk. You know what I mean? I'm basically the best thing that could have ever happened to him. Does he not know how lucky he is to have dated someone like me? And that sounds very narcissistic, but come on, I think most people have had moments like that, right? When they're stressed and they're in the heat of the moment and they're just trying to sort it. And maybe they communicated that in the fight because in fights, we often say things to hurt the other person or to win the argument.

48:42I'm not endorsing that. I'm just saying it's something people do. And I don't think that's indicative of having a narcissistic personality at all. That was my point exactly, that a lot of these situations around a breakup are things not going the way you would like in a romantic context. To then turn that into labeling, diagnosing that person as behaving that way in every scenario in their life, and therefore writing them off as someone that should be dateable causes real relationship harm to you to be constantly looking for that and to the other person who's now labeled as that. And if it's on an app, it's even worse that they're now labeled and potential other partners who might be a better fit for them, see them as that diagnosis and avoid them completely.

49:26So in the watering down, this label being thrown has actually, I think, made romantic relationships harder for all of us when we're all just trying to find that partner. And it's an unfortunate rise through social media that everyone now is using these labels of my ex is a narcissist or that person's a psychopath. It also brings me back to what I mentioned earlier. One of my kind of concerns that I've been thinking about lately is this, are we trying to standardize what a healthy relationship looks like in a very unhelpful way? I'm thinking about, I remember talking to a friend at a friend at a party based in the Bay Area and her whole vibe was like, I only, you know, am going to date like the hotshot CEO.

50:10Like I'm a beautiful, smart woman. And like, this is who I want to date. But then as she was talking about, you know, the different dating relationships she was having, they were always canceling on her because they're entrepreneurs. They're like, their startup is their girlfriend for lack of a better metaphor. And, you know, understandably she, she's hurt by that and like wants to be prioritized by her partner. And this is something that every therapist is guilty of. And I felt bad because I really wasn't trying to trigger insight. But I remember, it's like over drinks or something, and I'm talking to her and I go, well, you can't blame them for being exactly what you wanted them to be.

50:47You want them to be the hotshot CEO. They're going to be working all the time. That's going to be their whole thing. And I remember watching the glass shatter where she was like, oh, I have to like, is this actually what I want? And I think a lot of people find traits that we associate with narcissism, both malignant, bad, pathological narcissism, and also just like the healthy kind of sprinkles of it is very attractive. Like a little arrogance is incredibly attractive. Success and ambition, having lots of friends who they feel like are also successful, that's very, very attractive. And so if that's something that's going to be important to you in your partnership choice, like own that.

51:29Okay. And when they're stressed, maybe they get a little bit grandiose. And is it, is that dynamic within the parameters of something that you can deal with? Are they self-aware enough to also kind of keep it in check? Like, can you talk about it? You know, I think that that's the, that's the much better route forward than saying, well, anyone who's even a little bit narcissistic or selfish, assuming you're even using the word correctly, is just a no-go. I think people are being honest with themselves that narcissists wouldn't nearly be getting all the men and women that they seem to be getting on the dating market.

52:02That brings me to one of the other myths that I wanted to discuss because I've seen this rise in this term gaslighting across social media. And now it's just the perfect encapsulation of psychobabble in my mind that anytime we're in disagreement, someone is gaslighting you. I want you both to listen to this and anyone who's listening or watching this to remember this, that they don't remember anything else about gaslighting. It's not something that can happen in a single conversation. Even like Dr. Ramani or all these other creators who have very prolific platforms that I would say don't necessarily agree with me on my philosophy on how to understand narcissism and stuff, even they will agree that gaslighting is a grooming process.

52:45It happens over time. And so whenever somebody is in an argument and somebody is disagreeing with them or remembers something differently, while that may be difficult in the moment, it's not gaslighting. And if someone remembers something different from you, well, the memory researchers can only agree on one thing, and that's that memory is super unreliable. Even being on podcasts, I'll go back and listen to the episode. I was remember saying that. That's great. We really don't remember. And so it's my favorite definition of psychobabble because if you actually go to Merriam-Webster Dictionary, it was their word of the year in 2022.

53:27But what's fascinating is they actually have two entries for it. I write about this in the book. They have the more correct definition where it's like this is a process of psychological abuse and coercive control where you over time get the person, the victim, the survivor of it to doubt their own perceptions. And then there's this other definition, which basically amounts to disagreeing. And I don't think that Mariam is trying to make all this psychobabble confusing. I think they're just reporting on how words are being used in the vernacular. And so for me, it is proof actually that this concept creep of these terms has has gone quite far.

54:08Because those are two very different meanings, and people are kind of playing bait and switch with which one they're using, depending on what kind of argument they're having. It keeps you from any resolution. Because if you're now blaming someone as gaslighting you, you're espousing that they have malintent in the way that they're arguing with you. Has anybody ever accused you, either of you, of gaslighting when you're just disagreeing or misremembering? It hadn't happened for many years in my life until recently. How do you two handle it? I have ideas on how to. I'm just curious how you've navigated it this far.

54:44It actually allows me clarity that we're not going to be working towards a resolution. So continuing the argument with you, when you're throwing that accusation around, means that you're not actually bringing empathy to the conversation. You're not trying to see my perspective, you're dismissing it as a tool for you to win the argument. So in my mind, it's like, great, I know who I'm arguing with, I'll back off. And unfortunately, when someone is saying you are gaslighting me, it doesn't leave much room for resolution. I think that is a perfectly appropriate and even strategic approach in a lot of cases.

55:20What I might do if you feel like it's, if you feel like it would make sense in a given context is I would actually in a weird way go in and validate it, not to give them power in the argument, not even to admit that, oh, you're right, I was gaslighting. That's not what I mean by validate, but just go in and just communicate your understanding that it's like, oh my gosh, and you felt X when I said Y because it's not how you remember like z happening like like i'm so sorry like like you tell me like how you remember it like just like get go into that other mode because for me in in my life when the word has gotten brought up i do that and one of two things happen right it kind of snaps them out of it and they realize they're just they just mean disagree and then you can talk about the disagreement or they double down and if they're doubling down then you i think you actually have extra proof.

56:19You can be extra sure that this is actually a conversation or a working relationship that you need to consider exiting, or at least until they're able to talk about it like adults. And I think that the idea that it's inherently harmful to influence each other with language, and that's gaslighting, it's like, well, then we all might as well just stop talking altogether. You know what I mean? It's like, that's how it works. I don't think that a parent trying to keep parameters on their rambunctious teenager? Does that count? Does that count as gaslighting? I don't think it does. I think it's better for that one to be pretty specific in how we're defining it.

56:59And also honoring... I've treated survivors of gaslighting. It's brutal. It is brutal what people go through and then getting them out of it is very patient work. It takes a really long time. And so I think that if people... you know, took the time to maybe like hear about some survivors of gaslighting and what they went through. I don't think they would be using it as a joke at a party or using it to describe like a figure in the media so flippantly because they would, I think they would feel badly. The end result of the actual definition of gaslighting is you losing insight into your own perception of reality where you no longer trust yourself, whether it's with this person or then it branches out into all other relationships.

57:44And digging out of that outcome is tragic. It's an awful situation to be in where you're doubting your own eyes and ears and how you're perceiving reality because this person has not only in that interaction, but multiple interactions and oftentimes with other people in your life created this false sense of reality around you to coerce you and manipulate you. And that's why when I hear it charged towards me, you know i i realized well there might not be a resolution to this disagreement and you have a pretty strong stake in your viewpoint so i'm not going to continue to fight my viewpoint we can accept yours and move on i agree with what you're saying and that being able to do that in itself is a a psychological skill of like in dbt they call it both and right like how can you hold multiple perspectives at once, even paradoxical perspectives as true.

58:38And it's easy to understand it's, it's, it's hard to do, but I believe that anybody can get there with practice, maybe even with little therapy, right. Or, or just, you know, with just like support that, I mean, growing up, my, my dad had this saying that was like, it's like, what are you going to do? Are you going to live on an Island by yourself? It's like, you live in a society with people who are different from you, you know, and they're going to remember things differently and prioritize different things. And so figuring that out is, um, I don't know, I think it's part of growing up and it's, uh, it's, uh, it's tough, man, because man, people are different, aren't they?

59:15Well, we appreciate you dispelling some myths for us in our audience. Yeah, of course. Where can they find out more about the book and, and your work? They go to joenuccitherapy.com for those who are listening. That's like Gucci with an N as and Nancy, N-U-C-C-I, Joe Nucci Therapy. That's also my handles on social. I'm most active on Instagram. And my book where I talk about a lot of these myths we discussed today, 40 of them in total, Psychobabble, Viral Mental Health Myths and the Truths that Will Set You Free is out starting September 23rd, 2025. Thank you for joining us, Joe.

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1:00:37My only regret is not taking the program sooner. If you are serious about showing up as the best version of yourself, I urge you to sign up for the X-Factor Accelerator. You will be so glad you did. Thank you, Ron. It was a pleasure working with you too. And good luck to you and all your future endeavors. if you've gotten value out of this or any of our podcasts head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review this show it would mean the world to me and aj and it helps others find the show till next week go out there and make it amazing

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