In short
Podcast Summary: Are You Chasing a Prize You Don’t Even Want? | Bree Groff
Podcast Title
The Art of Charm Podcast Description: The Art of Charm aims to help self-motivated individuals master human dynamics, relationships, and personal development through coaching insights shared by founders Johnny and AJ. They leverage their extensive coaching experience to provide actionable advice for personal growth and understanding human behavior.
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Episode Overview Guest: Bree Groff, Transformation Expert Episode Description: Bree Groff discusses the psychological complexities behind personal and organizational change. The conversation emphasizes that resistance to change often stems from using ineffective psychological models. The episode highlights frameworks for navigating change in various contexts, from personal habits to team dynamics.
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Key Topics Discussed
Understanding Change
- Emotional vs. Logical Resistance: Change feels emotionally threatening as much as it is logically difficult.
- 3-Part Model for Diagnosing Transitions: Bree outlines a framework to identify resistance in any transition effectively.
Resistance to Change
- Hidden Resistance: How to identify deeper layers of resistance that might not be immediately obvious.
- Clinging to Familiarity: People often hold onto familiar routines even when they are not effective.
Importance of Endings
- Psychology of Endings: A deep dive into why endings matter more than beginnings in the change process.
Micro-Moves for Big Change
- Creating Momentum: Introducing "micro-moves" to facilitate change when substantial transformation feels daunting.
- Bree’s Change Curve: A visual representation to understand and create emotional momentum during transitions.
Leadership Challenges
- Mistakes Leaders Make: Common pitfalls in guiding teams through change, including failing to make change feel safe.
- Building Resilient Identities: Practical steps to foster adaptability and resilience among team members.
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Key Takeaways
- Chasing the Wrong Goals: People often pursue promotions or roles without considering if they truly want them, leading to disappointment.
- Work and Relationships: The importance of workplace culture and camaraderie to make work fulfilling.
- Value Creation Over Pain: The notion that success does not require suffering and that value creation can be enjoyable.
Bree's Guidance
- Schedule Personal Priorities: Advocates for scheduling life commitments (exercise, family time) into calendars before work tasks.
- Combatting Busyness: Recognizing that busyness can be a distraction from what truly matters, including health and relationships.
Gamifying Life
- Bree suggests re-investing the competitive spirit often reserved for work into personal life pursuits—such as reading books or spending time with family.
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Actionable Steps for Listeners
- Micro Mischief: Encourage small acts of authenticity in the workplace, like wearing fun socks or sharing personal stories.
- Make Someone’s Day: Send uplifting messages to colleagues to foster a supportive work environment.
- Triage Your Tasks: Reflect on what is genuinely important and prioritize accordingly to prevent burnout and promote well-being.
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Conclusion Bree Groff emphasizes that while work can be challenging, it doesn't have to be devoid of enjoyment. By fostering relationships and challenging the norms around work, individuals can create a more fulfilling professional life.
For more insights, visit [Bree Groff's website](http://breegroff.com) and explore her book, "Today Was Fun: A Book About Work, Seriously," available at major booksellers.
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Episode Resources
- Website: [BreeGroff.com](http://breegroff.com)
- Social Media: Follow Bree on LinkedIn and Instagram for more updates and insights.
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Note: This summary captures the essence of the episode while highlighting its key themes and actionable advice for listeners looking to navigate change and enhance their work-life experience.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
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1:50Only pay for what you need at LibertyMutual.com. Liberty, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty. Savings Ferry, underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates, excludes Massachusetts. The first thing we have to acknowledge is work is a bottomless pit. It is an invasive species. It will take over all corners of your life. At the end of the day, it's like, oh, I could empty the dishwasher or I could return these emails. And that feels like really satisfying. There will always be more work to do. The trick is in hijacking our own brains to say it's OK to pause right here. There are other things more important.
2:25If we can defend our health, our relationships, our joys, then we've got a fighting chance. We need to take that more seriously because no one else will.
2:45All right, let's kick off today's show. Today, we're talking with Brie Groff, who wrote, Today was fun, a book about work. Seriously. She consults on workplace culture and believes creativity now matters more than performative effort. Fun at work is not a luxury. Fun drives creativity. Creativity produces value. Value keeps you employed when AI replaces grunt work. And she shares why success doesn't require pain, how AI changes what employers value, the two-minute move to shift workplace culture, and why making someone's day actually improves yours. Welcome to the show, Brie. It's great to have you.
3:23Oh, thanks for having me here. Over the years, Johnny and I have talked a lot about relationships, how to develop great relationships. But one of the relationships that I feel we haven't discussed much in the show is our relationship with work. And many of us listening to the show might have a terrible relationship with our work. We might even loathe our work. And I'm really fascinated to hear your own relationship with work and then what started you on this project? I wrote a whole book about having fun at work. So it would be very off brand if I didn't like it. It took me a long time to figure this out.
3:57In many ways, I'm still figuring it out. You know, they always say you write the book you most need to read. But I think I grew up seeing parents who generally liked their work. My father was an elementary school principal. My mom was a kindergarten teacher. They definitely had their stresses like all of us. But what I remember most is my mom coming home and saying, I have the best days. And it stuck with me that, oh, this is not only possible, but it's actually, it's within my grasp to achieve. So I sort of grew up thinking that work would be like this. It was only really when I entered consulting in the world of corporate norms, when I'm like, oh, God, people aren't peeing for six hours at a time.
4:45And like, what are these back to back meetings and everyone's trying to sound fancy? Like, this is not the dream I was promised. And so it's taken me some time to really learn what's possible in terms of enjoying our work and yet not making work the sole source of fulfillment in our lives. One of the first beliefs that I think many in our audience feel is that success has to hurt and it has to be incredibly hard and not fun at all to be successful. That's not true. Like that's right. Like that's that belief sets you up for a situation where you are either happy or successful and never both. All right.
5:26So it's a bad premise to start from. And it's also just not true. Struggle does not necessarily mean greatness. Now, sometimes greatness requires struggle, but, you know, I give the example. I don't know. Like, have you ever tried making a baby? Like, it's something worth doing. And for some people, not that hard, right? So it's just a false equivalency that anything worth doing is difficult. And when it comes to our work, sometimes it feels like, oh, we get paid because work is painful and people wouldn't do it otherwise. us. But I say, no, we get paid because we create value. Like the pain is optional, right?
6:10And when there is pain, the quality of that pain matters. It should feel more like a hard workout, right? A hard workout is pain we chose. It feels in some ways good and invigorating as opposed to the pain of getting beat up, which I think a lot of people feel like, oh, that's my pain. That's the pain I feel at work. And so it's worth discussing like where what's the quality of that struggle? Did you choose that struggle? And is it even necessary in the first place? For a lot of our clients and even my own experience in academic research, you know, there's this environmental factor where everyone feels like they've had to go through it and it's just passed down.
6:50I know in consulting with consultants we work with, it's just like just part of the job. That's the grind you have to go through to become partner. And I had to do it to become partner. And now I'm going to put you through it to become partner, you know, staying up all night, checking punctuation on slides over the weekend that really don't matter. But you got to do it because I did it. And these norms just persist. And I think that's really wears us out, especially now in this always on work environment where we don't have weekends anymore. We have Slack messages and emails to get to. As an elder millennial myself, you know, I hear both of the arguments of like the stick it to the man argument and also the kids these days, they don't work like they used to work.
7:28Like, I get it. Like, I had to stay up late. And so there is that sense of we always, I think, in many ways, grasp to our experience of if I was successful, it was necessarily the path I took that made me successful. The long nights, the checking the punctuation, being the the junior consultant in the group. But actually, I think this is like really, especially now up for grabs with the advent of AI, where, I mean, in a very scary way, a lot of consultancies are not hiring junior consultants anymore because the AI is doing that grunt work. So the question is, where do senior consultants come from?
8:15Well, you know, Maybe they don't need to do the grunt work they had done in years past. Maybe instead they're just learning. I mean, not to be too on the nose, but maybe they're learning the art of charm. Maybe they're learning how to emotionally regulate. Maybe they're learning how to grow a team or think strategically in a way much younger than maybe their predecessors did. Because in their earlier days, they were checking typos. We're moving into a completely different generation. So as AJ mentioned, and you mentioned, I had to check all the grammar because that's what they did, right? That's what the people that I will soon at one point hopefully be replacing.
9:00Well, those people that you'll be replacing, they don't want shortcut fishes being into their chair. They want people who are capable and have done the work and understand the rules so that, hey, if you understand the rules, you can break the rules. But if you're a shortcut fish, you're going to be over your skis if certain things happen. And that will be a downfall of the company. But again, as you mentioned, and now we have AI where talk about shortcut fish, there's going to be a lot of retooling and refiguring about how companies operate now, because the old rules that everyone had to learn and what the people above them made sure they learned, those are now going to be obsolete.
9:56Yeah. It's a whole new game. And also I have to ask, what's a shortcut fish? I've never heard that term before. I mean, is it like a fish that takes the shortcut? This is a very efficient swimming fish. Yes. Right. Always looking. Listen, our brains are always programmed to conserve energy and look for those shortcuts. However, the shortcut that you may think is the shortcut now may get you in trouble later. That's where the fish comes in because the fish doesn't have enough thought to make five moves ahead. So he gets himself in trouble by taking those shortcuts. Yeah. Oh, those fish are not forward thinking.
10:38Yeah. I'm with you. Well, what I think is wrapped in this is there's the output, which AI is now replacing. But then there's the effort that we as humans could show each other by those long nights and by doing the grueling work and being on call. And that is disappearing. But at the same time, in the back of our minds, there are these fears with with the output being replaced. You know, I have a couple of clients worked Amazon. They got fired over a text message in the middle of the night. Oh, my God. Yeah. Where, man, I've worked. I've played by the rules. I've done everything right. And I'm still getting let go.
11:12And I don't know what the job market is now. I don't know what I have to rely on moving forward. So the thought of making work fun is absolutely terrifying with that right behind you. If we flip it on its head a bit and say the long nights, the performative effort, if that's not working anymore because your performative effort, your bosses are seeing through it. They're like, we got to do layoffs. One would think and hope that if you are producing disproportionate value for the organization, you're going to stick around. Now, this is a little bit of simplistic way to say this because I'm sure your friend and so many others are producing value.
11:56And yet, if we don't think so much about the efficiency or the effort and think more about what's the value we're creating, creating value that is creative, uncommon, interesting, that is actually really fun. that actually, I would go further, say requires fun. The most creative and successful consultants I know are the ones who are actually having a really good time because they feel confident enough to propose the crazy idea, confident enough to run with it. Like all of that, that like, ooh, we might be onto something. Let's try something that's never been done before. First of all, not only is that outrunning AI, Because AI is just pattern recognition at scale, right?
12:51Like you coming up with something inventive from your own human brain, like that's valuable and fun. That's a really tight Venn diagram there. So I would say, if anything, we need more fun at work now than we ever have before because the grunt work is not necessary. Like the boring stuff. And that's at best. At best, AI is taking away the boring stuff such that us humans can decide what do we want to do? What's the world we want to live in? That's uniquely human work. You just brought up an interesting point. So the archetypes that would get those jobs previously, those archetypes now change because you're filtering for different attributes that are going to add value to the company due to the old attributes being obsolete or just minimized.
13:43They probably still need to have that analytical brain working, but now we want to be bringing in new ideas outside the box thinking. So much about what will be valuable in the future is the demonstration of human care by companies at large, but also on a personal scale. So there's some website out there where you can type in a thank you note or love note for that matter. And a human somewhere or maybe a fancy AI pen will write it and send it for you. Which at the one hand, I'm like, oh, how efficient. On the other hand, I'm like, that's awful. Oh, my God. If I had ever gotten like an AI or like an outsourced handwritten love note, like we're not married anymore.
14:32You know, I hope Brad is listening to this. But I guess my point is in a world where things are becoming so automated and so scaled, the demonstration of human caring and human ingenuity, that is the differentiator now. And so it's the companies that are willing to show their human care, that are willing to be creative and inventive. And you know what? You can tell the AI-generated ads from a bunch of marketing ad people in a room having themselves a really good time. And I think that's actually, if we lean into our humanity, that's our competitive advantage. advantage.
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17:30sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. At Capella University, learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu. Where we really sync up is that fun also creates relationships and connection.
18:13And in a world where we're spending more and more time talking to robots and computers, I know, you know, the bigwigs in Silicon Valley might disagree, but most of us as humans don't want to be talking to robots. We crave connection, just like you crave that team that's having fun. versus the team that's grueling it out on the weekends, if we can bring fun, we create more connection in our career that actually makes us better suited for this ever-changing world of a need for innovation and a need for human intellect to really shine through. Because now you're building the relationships that could bring those disparate parts and ideas together and collaborate that have been so lacking in other areas.
18:53And I think when we're actually able to recognize that, You know, and I have a friend right now who's just really suffering at work. And I shared with him just my perspective of experiencing that day in and day out and him discussing it is how much it's sapped as fun, but also it's his charisma. He's a shell of himself right now, even socially, even when we go out because work has sapped so much from him. And if we can bring that fun to work, we actually create more of an opportunity to connect with others and build the network we need to be durable in this economy. frankly what's durable about a career is if people just like working with you like no one would really put it on a performance review or sometimes they do and especially for women but all of that bias aside right when people like working with you because you're fun, interesting, caring, you're interested in other people, that's a person that people want to keep around, right?
20:00And so especially when we are up against like, hi, I'm Brie, your colleague, versus AI, your colleague, like, please let me be the human in that situation. And, you know, as we maybe get more and more AI agents as our colleagues, those human relationships, you're right, are even more important, not only for the business and the connections, but if we zoom out and think about our lives, like my grandfather, who was, you know, retired for many years by the time, you know, I was around. he would always have his friends Lloyd and Vera over to their house. They're very close friends. Lloyd was a friend of his from Ace Hardware, where he was a buyer for his whole career.
20:49And I think about, like, how magical that that friendship lasted, you know, 40 years at work and then another 30 years after that. Like, what are we going to do in our retirement? Like, here's my AI agent buddy from back. Like, you know, like we forget that friendships at work are good for more than business. They're actually they're good for our lives and our longevity and in our happiness, really. Right. Like the the long term studies of human happiness say there's one predictor of happiness over the long term, and that's relationships. And so let's not forget about them where we spend most of our time.
21:27When you have a friendship for that long. And of course, AJ and I've been working closely together for 18 years. There you go. which is you're going to bitch about your friend I bet your grandfather could be like oh that guy I'll tell you what Lloyd yeah and just run off a list of things that he's pissed at Lloyd about however right it's the relationship is bigger than these differences and squabbles and of course in AJ and I's place it's the vision of the company was always bigger than whatever squabbles we have. And we, we, you know, that's just part of complex human relationships. And my fear, and we're already seeing it, if we continue to play out how everything's going, which is when things get tough with people's friends, they just dump them now and find a new group of friends, or now it's going to be, well, I don't need anybody at work.
22:30It's just me and Claude and we're going to do our work and we're going to get this over with. And as somebody who works closely with Claude, Claude's really nice to me. Claude thinks you're really smart actually. It builds me up. Tells you how smart I am. Such a good idea.
22:50It's the junk food of friendship, right? It's easy. It's consumable. yeah you do like the real hair flip like i know that was a good idea i'm so glad you you saw that saw it that way too uh but also you know does what junk food does to our brains over time which is you know it's there's in terms of relationships right there's not a lot of nutritional value there like and certainly ai is good for lots of things right like i feel like that's not debatable. It's incredibly powerful, but it's still not a human. It will never give hugs. Never. Right. And like, in what's a world where we exist as brains only to interact with computer brains like it?
23:38I don't know. It's I'm not a fan of return to the office policies either, But like sometimes once in a while, you just have to be next to another human and feel like I'm living in the real world. You know, we're not in the matrix yet. Looking at that survival instinct that we're all feeling right now with this massive change in the economy and layoffs happening, as I said, and looking around at peers who seem to be busier than us and having to grind it out. You know, one of the things you talk about in the book is how often it is that we set aside the things that we really need our health outside of work, doing things that actually light us up.
24:17And we get so consumed with work that we set aside relationships. And that's one thing that Johnny and I work on with our clients is like, oh, man, I thought the way to success was going to be very isolating. And going the lone wolf actually leads you astray of what you actually want in life. So for those listening who are feeling that, you know, how can we start to shift our mindset to even be open to bringing fun into our work? In terms of work versus the rest of our lives, the first thing we have to acknowledge is work is a bottomless pit. It is an invasive species. It will take over all corners of your life.
24:51And we know this, right? Like at the end of the day, it's like, oh, I could empty the dishwasher or I could return these emails. And that feels like really satisfying. Got to get to the bottom, you know, inbox zero. There will always be more work to do. The trick is in hijacking our own brains to say, it's okay to pause right here. There are other things more important. One way that I do this quite tactically is because Google Calendar is the boss of me, and I know this, I go wherever Google Calendar tells me to go. I just schedule my life in first. I put my exercise in first. I put my daughter's softball games in, date nights.
25:39You don't have to make these public to your company. You could just put blocks on your calendar. But I do this because I know if I don't, I will just keep working. And then frankly, it's much easier to say, oh, I'm sorry, I can't take that late meeting. I have another commitment. And that's not so bad to say. What's really hard to say is I now have to decline this meeting because I want to play a board game with my kid. Like, that feels not legit. So if we can get there first, if we can defend our health, our relationships, our joys, then we've got a fighting chance. And then I would also say, too, your organization, your boss is never looking out for your cholesterol score.
26:29That's all on you. So in many ways, if we are not caring for our health, we're like the goalie who's left. We are playing out of position. And then the cholesterol scores, if you follow me on my twisted metaphor here. We are the ones. We are the ones who care. And I've seen so many people, especially executives, who feel the weight of the world on their shoulders say, oh, my responsibility is the business. They have the goal. Now I'm outing myself as a not sporty person. But they've left the goal, right? And then all of a sudden there's a health crisis. And as they say, it's like you have 19 problems.
27:11And then when you have a health problem, you have one problem because that trumps everything else. And so I think we need to take that more seriously because no one else will. Our health, our relationships, I've definitely seen marriages struggle as well because your boss does not care about your marriage. So if you are spending your nights and weekends working instead of having a relationship, then you're the one who has to defend that. Another point you bring up in the book is our addiction to busyness. And I know my wife and I laugh. We have a young daughter and we think, man, what was it like when we didn't have a daughter?
27:53Like, how do we feel so busy? Like now I feel 10 times as busy. Like I'm completely missing things on my calendar with a young daughter. I daydream back to when I had more time. But yet when I was without a kid, I was still very busy. If you had talked to me then three years ago, I would say, oh, I'm incredibly busy. Yeah, let's do that thing in two weeks or three weeks. I'm so busy. and it becomes this fallacy that we just get so addicted to being busy. And then, of course, our health goes to the wayside. Our relationships go to the wayside. We skip that date night. And unfortunately, then we really suffer.
28:25So I have a 10 year old and I think the same. I'm like people without kids, they're just sleeping all day shortly. But I was the same. I was always very busy pre-kid. Yeah, but it's true. I mean, busyness, it's tricky because it's such a multifaceted problem at work. it's sometimes it's a strategy problem. You don't have a strong strategy at work either at the company level or at your team. So you're like, well, let's just try everything. Let's just do all the things and see if some of those things will help the business. It's also in many ways a status problem. Usually the boss is managing the work.
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29:04And so the boss is like, I need you at all these meetings to give all the status updates. And if you're a maker, It's like, oh, now I'm in all these meetings. When am I ever doing my work? So it's that problem as well. Sometimes it's an existential dread problem in some ways. Like busyness can be an escape from the rest of our lives. You know, when grief or relationships or other things in life feel hard, that's when slack feels really easy and nice to do. So it's just it's so multifaceted. And then it's also like, in many ways, like half a good thing where it feels good to feel needed. If I'm busy, my calendar is packed.
29:44That sort of makes me feel like, oh, everybody wants to meet with me. I'm needed in all these meetings. I'm triple booked. There's something glamorous about that. What I hope for us is that we can flip that glamour to say, it's not, oh, I'm so needed. I'm so busy. Aren't I important? It's I'm so good at my work that I can work half a day, do just as much work and then go take a nap. I'm that good. Right. Like that's what I'm interested in. It still has a little snobbery, I will admit. But but the glamour is on the right side of of history here where we want to curb this feeling of performative overwork.
30:31This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast, smart move. Being financially savvy, smart move. Another smart move, having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling, just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. A lot of it comes down to, and this is something that we do with all of our X Factor members, and it's the very first thing in their assessment and onboarding, which is let's get you connected back to the things that matter most to you as your core values, and then start looking at your weeks, days, weeks, and months from that position.
31:24Because ultimately, that's what allows you to feel like you're making the most out of the day. And that drives you to make decisions on the convenience of things. So for instance, for me, one of my core values is mindfulness because I have all this technology. I could do six things at once and think I'm doing everything well and I know that I can't. So things like washing the dishes, something that I have already gotten in an argument with my dad and my sister over because I like to wash the dishes there is purpose in washing the dishes it's a break from everything else that I did there's a mindfulness issue about washing the dishes and of course they're looking at me like I'm insane um no and I think I was laughing when you mentioned about being needed because like well I'm washing the dishes because the dishes need to be clean they need me to wash them these dishes are like please look at me i'm so yeah um but i think that's amazing you know it's the same sort of principle as taking a shower in terms of the like i'm doing one thing it's useful it's physical like i'm doing it with my hands like right right like i think we do a disservice sometimes yes we absolutely do right like being so busy and trying to, we always get the message like outsource anything that's not your zone of brilliance.
32:56Well, I don't know. Dishes and shower, you're not my zone of brilliance, but they're really important for my brain. There's so little time in our day when our brains are free to just roam, that they're not needed for anything. Because normally all day we're inputting, outputting, right? I'm listening, I'm talking, I'm reading an email, I'm sending an email. And just to have space to wander. I mean, this is the reason in our shower, we have a waterproof notepad because all, you know, I'm such a cliche, right? But like all my best ideas come in the shower and I'm always like reaching out of the shower, trying to get my phone and like, it's getting wet.
33:33I'm like, this is ridiculous. So now we have a waterproof notepad. I highly recommend them because ultimately we need, we need to work for our brains, right? Our brains don't work for us. We need to provide our brains the conditions to breathe and be healthy and serve us in our work. As we talked about busyness, it really seemed to me like there's three problems that you were articulating. And I'd love to tackle the first one because I think a lot of us don't realize we have a triage problem with our busyness. So we chase every idea, whatever comes in our inbox immediately. We tackle it. We want to get to inbox zero.
34:09We create to do's that we know we're going to do anyways just to feel like we're accomplishing stuff. But ultimately, we're not triaging what's really important. And for us and our clients, number one is looking at core values. And then it's also looking at like, is this a great idea that needs to be pursued right this second? Or can I just jot it down, capture it to chew on later or think about it in the shower tomorrow and act on it next week? And I think once you make that recognition that, okay, I need to triage a lot of these things that I feel like I have to do and bucket them and like I actually have to do them and hey, this would be nice and you know what, let's think about this next quarter.
34:46I think that helps quite a bit with our busyness, especially if you have the ability in a leadership role to even pass it on to your team. So you're not being that second problem, which is just anything in go straight out and I need you to handle it right when I say I need it handled. And I think some of us find ourselves in that position at work and we don't know what to do with that boss who has a triage problem. But now we're underneath them and we have to deal with the downsides. Those anti-triage bosses are the worst for sure. It's definitely a problem of, as they say in tech or scrum, holding the backlog.
35:26In a perfect world, you have the tasks that fit within the time you have. and the backlog is all the is your wish list of things to do the trick is in holding that backlog and not bringing up every new idea to test it out what i find at the leadership level what happens a lot i've done so many executive offsites where we've tried to do prioritization and what often it's sort of like okay follow me on this metaphor it's like having a really messy closet and asking executives, is there anything you want to get rid of? And they'll put their red dot on like one sock, right? Or like maybe there's a book in the court.
36:07Like, sure, we can get rid of these. And not even a red dot. They call it sun setting, right? You can't even say, let's just stop it. This project sucks. You know, you can't say that. You have to say sun setting. Like it's, I don't know, some euphemism for business death. But the problem is doing it the way of like, I'm looking at everything and removing because humans are very loss-averse. There's so much research on this. You mourn losses 50 % more than you value gains. The better way to do it is to do it the Marie Kondo method. If you remember that book, what's the name? Okay, I will explain it and then someone will put in the show notes the name of the book.
36:51Yeah, I don't remember. So Marie Kondo has this method of essentially like decluttering. But instead of just taking a few things out, her method is take out everything in the closet, one by one, hold up an item and say, does this spark joy? And if it does, it goes in the closet. And if it doesn't, it gets trashed or donated or something like that. But that's a much different mindset to say, what are all the things that we have going on? And one by one, is this sparking value to the business? Great, it can go back. Similar to the way Shopify deleted all meetings over, I don't know, nine people or something in the new year a few years back.
37:37with the philosophy that if you needed that meeting, put it back. That's great. But any of those inertia projects or like inertia tasks, let's just get rid of those first and then be really thoughtful about what hypotheses do we hold that are driving our business. And frankly, this is a confidence problem too. There are so many leaders that are not confident enough to say, here's my hypothesis these three projects three three lines of business these whatever it is these products our hypothesis is they are producing disproportionate value for our business we are going to focus here leaders are generally bad at this they want to sort of hedge their bets and so when i'm working with leaders my goal is to say like call it like you see it i don't think that's just leaders i think that's humans in general well that's true the leaders are the ones making the mess.
38:33I agree. They're the ones that are supposed to have it straightened out, but they're not. Yeah, no, that's true. And anybody will feel that way because the truth is we're all sort of making it up at work. Like that's just like we don't know. Everybody's, you know, even in working and figuring out book marketing, everyone's like, no one knows what sells books. Try a few appearances, a few podcasts, give a talk, you know, so we're all making it up. So it's natural to want to try a bunch of different things. It's just not human is the problem. And it's ultimately not joyful. We also need to get better at asking ourselves, what do I want to do?
39:12Because a lot of times we think humans are lazy. If I ask what I want to do, I want to sit on the couch. I find that to be not true. What we want to do is work that's enlivening, that's interesting. And so that's, I think, a really important question when you're narrowing your focus to the best of your ability, despite your deprioritized or unprioritizing boss. What's the work that lights you up? Like, can we focus there? Because that's the work that you are going to give your best to. That third problem, the existential problem with busyness, you know, again, goes to an earlier point. as a knowledge worker, a high performer, oftentimes we will set aside our health, our relationships, and it's a blind spot that we have that we don't even realize.
39:58And over time, that wears us out to a place of that existential dread where we've lost touch with our friends and the thought of reconnecting with them after you missed a birthday and you hadn't reached out in three months because you've been busy becomes overwhelming. And the thought of putting your shoes on and actually going to the gym just to something you're going to push off to tomorrow But if you're feeling that with your busyness and it's not triage, it's not your boss, I think it really is going back to the basics and recognizing that to perform at a high level, we have to be eating right.
40:29We have to be resting well and we have to be moving our body to get the most out of it. So if you're sitting in that now, you've recognized, OK, I'm busy. Look at do I have a personal triage? Am I just taking everything as it comes? Okay, do I have a cultural issue with my boss that maybe I can work through? And if not, maybe I need to change cultures? Or is it existential? I've just been choosing busy for so long that I've pushed everything else aside health wise, and now I'm suffering because of it. you know, not only is rest good for performance, but rest is good for being a human on the planet.
41:02And, you know, we forget that our bodies are the only reasons we get to stay here. Like that it's they're worth taking care of. And from a family perspective, there was one time when my daughter was maybe four years old and I was reading her bedtime story. I could like feel slack, like burning a hole in my pocket. I knew there were things I needed to get back to do. And so I'm like, you know what I'm going to do? I just started turning two pages at a time of the book. I'm like, she's not following the plot. It's fine. Like the rabbit. Oh, where'd the rabbit go? Nobody knows. Right. And I'm just trying to get through the bedtime story quickly so I can go back to work.
41:40And she called me. She says, you're not doing your best. And I thought, oh, my God, I'm not doing my best. You know what? Like my daughter's getting works leftovers. hours this she's getting the scraps and it was just a you know we all have these moments from time to time that are like oh my priorities have been really off right like what's more what's a more special moment in my life than cuddling up with my four-year-old daughter reading her a bedtime story you know something that I dreamed of my whole life one day having a kid and here I am throwing that away so I can respond about some project plans.
42:22So yeah, those moments are worth defending. And I think also, you know, work is really good at gamifying the career ladder, right? There's promotions, there's performance reviews with your exceeds expectations, ratings. It's super easy to get locked in like you are playing that game. Well, to that I say, like, gamify your life in a rebuttal to that. So, for example, I've got this, you know, my sleep tracker. I want to get a good sleep score. You know, I'm focused on being an exceeds expectation sleeper now. I think that's awesome. I want to be a gold star parent or a senior hobbyist. Now, I know this all sounds like I've just applied hustle culture to my personal life, and that's kind of sad.
43:14But what I'm trying to do is reroute the energy that I have for achievement into other parts of my life where I can then have a bit more of, I don't know, well-rounded existence. When you walk into a Burlington, you're walking into amazing prices and great gifts. That's main character energy. Because at Burlington, the holiday savings aren't the only things turning heads. Discover quality finds and perfect presents for everyone on your list, even those who are hard to shop for. Toys and jewelry to new beauty brands and styles, these gifts go seamlessly from our stores to under your tree. Seriously, with these savings, Why shop anywhere else?
44:04close your eyes exhale feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today well I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class I got them delivered free from 1-800-CONTACTS oh my gosh they're so fast and breathe oh sorry I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order oh sorry namaste visit 1-800-CONTACTS.COM today to save on your first order. 1-800-CONTACTS. If it works for you, and I know for many in our audience, they love ticking those boxes of achievement and climbing that ladder and changing what the ladder is.
44:44You know, for me and my wife, it's numbers of books read with our daughter. Like that is achievable. That's a number that's quantifiable. And now every time we go out, travel to a new place, we're looking for little books so we can add to the list. For some of my clients, it's miles run in a month or a week. but we can bring other aspects time spent with friends outings per year days traveled we have another client who's days skied right days snowboarded you can gamify these other areas of your life so we recognize work does a great job of this and that's how they capture our attention and keep us playing the game how can we bring the game to other parts of our life that we know we need to be fun to achieve fun in ourselves and with others and at work there's a concept in the book that I'd love to unpack for our audience because I think when you kind of recognize it, it's easier to see in others, but it's tougher to see in ourselves.
45:36And that's the costume that we wear at work and how it actually hurts us. It feels good to be in costume, but it actually hurts us from achieving the fun that we're all looking for. Our business costumes, they are literal and figurative. The literal costumes are we put on our fancy wool suits or your heels or the tie or whatever it is that is fancy for your gender expression. And I get it. It feels like I'm demonstrating professionalism. I'm going to fit in. I'm going to look fancier. And don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with fashion, even though I'm not that fashionable. I respect that it's self-expression for some people.
46:25The problem is when people don't feel complete in their business costume without their business mask on. And what this ends up looking like is this sort of professional, palatable presentation where I'm saying the right words, I'm laughing at the right times. I'm using jargon. I'm, you know, I'm working. I'm actually performing competence in order to fit in within a business culture. And there's, there is a culture, right? Like there's a reason why we make fun of business jargon. That's like, oh, I'll circle back about those strategic priorities by EOD. You know, the problem is one, it's a problem for the business because people aren't really bringing their best, most expressive, interesting ideas to the table.
47:18They're trying to show up as nice. But worse, it's hard for us. Do you ever have this feeling where at the end of a meeting, like sometimes I'll close out of a meeting and my face will go from like very presentable to like, oh my God, like finally I can drop the facade. Or sometimes when I've been on a meeting where I really disagree with whatever someone's saying. And I'm like, fix your face free, make it nice. Like, turn up the sides of your lips so that you don't look, you can't give the eye roll. Just do it in your head. You know, it's not good for us as humans because it's very hard to enjoy ourselves if we don't feel like ourselves.
48:04If we don't feel like my authentic expression and reactions and thoughts and feelings are not welcome. This is, I know there's lots of backlash around, don't bring your full self to work. But, you know, I just, it's like, sure, you don't have to like tell all your secrets at work. But I don't know, I would like to show up and say what I think when I think it. if I think it's going to be helpful for the team or for the business. And so this whole notion of performative professionalism, it really strips away a lot of fun. Like no one's having fun when they have their top button buttoned and they're sitting with perfect posture.
48:49This is not fun. Right. And it's also just not necessary. Right. One of the chapters in the book is called your brain works, whether you're wearing a suit or stretchy pants, because it literally does. It literally works just the same. That's what was so funny around the pandemic was all those little moments on Zoom where the camera would pan away and they'd be in their athletic shorts under their suit or, you know, they'd have the blazer on, but they'd be wearing flip-flops and you kind of realize like, okay, we are performing in the little frame that is Zoom for our audience. But outside of that, we want to be in our stretchy pants.
49:23We want to be comfortable to be ourselves. I think the challenge for many of us is also recognizing that culture where our true selves will be seen, heard, accepted and really flourish. And so oftentimes we feel the need, whether it's outside pressure of what our family deems as successful or the narratives we've told ourselves, like, I have to be that consultant. This is what I said I wanted to do when I got my first job or my first internship. So I have to follow through on that being a partner at the law firm. And we don't recognize that, hey, maybe that actually doesn't really fit who we are right now.
49:57And there are chapters to our life and certainly to our career that we should be more willing to be flexible around and recognize the fullness of our career as a book and not just one thing that we have to do and have to become. I'd like to ask the question of myself and I offer it to others. When you're considering a new role, a promotion, your career, you have to ask yourself, do I want that prize? or I liken it to, you know, if you've ever been to a carnival and sunk 50 bucks into balloon darts and you're like, here's another 20. I'm so close. You know, here I go. You're working so hard because you just want to win.
50:38And it feels like, oh, it's it's within my grasp. And then you do it. And then they're like, here is your five foot teddy bear. No, we can't take it back. Yes, you have to carry it around for the rest of the day at the carnival. And you're like, oh, that was the prize. Huh. Didn't really think that far ahead as to what I was going to win. Bringing it back to our careers, I've known so many people who have taken the promotion and were like, yes, until they were like, oh, wait, you want me to like now be on 24 seven and you want me to lay off these people and you want me to cut budget and you want me to increased performance.
51:16Like I did. Ooh, was that the prize? All right. Similarly, I can't count the number of friends who have unused law degrees. Can't count them. So many. And, you know, I get it. Like being a lawyer, it just feels like it's safe. I don't know. Maybe it was fun for them at some point. But I say bravo, bravo to them for later being like, this is not fun. I don't want this anymore. And I think there's such a, there's such a dominant culture of move up. You want more money, more prestige, more scope. It feels like that's what culture wants you to want. Many times it's what our families want us to want or our partners want us to want.
51:56But none of those, you know, society is not carrying around that five foot teddy bear for you. You carry around that five foot teddy bear. You are living that life day in and day out. And so I love it when people take sort of unconventional career paths when they don't gun for the promotion, especially as you said, in different times of life. Like right now, my father has Alzheimer's. I'm an only child. And so I'm his like main caregiver and I do all of his finances and care and all that kind of thing. Like, I have no business taking a full-time job right now, but that's fine. Like, I'm just, I'm cool with it, but it's very hard once you're locked in to this sort of like next level, next scope.
52:47It feels very hard to pull out of that. And yet I think it's just so important that we ultimately ask, what is it that we want? Do we want that prize? Sometimes, and Johnny and I have had these moments in our business over 18 years where you just have to shovel shit. And it's not necessarily fun. It's not tasks or things we want to be doing, but it's a part of moving forward, whether it's dealing with lawsuits or trying to figure out how to pivot the company completely or start a new initiative. And you're starting from scratch and you got to roll up your sleeves. But it becomes a lot more fun when you're doing it with a partner like Johnny or doing it with people you actually enjoy doing it with.
53:26And I think so often we don't recognize that. If you like your co-shovelers, life is fine. And the perfect example of this is the show, The Office, which, you know, they're selling paper in Scranton. Like there's no bigger purpose. They are shoveling shit through and through. But the point of the show is not to show that that you need purpose or meaning in your life to have fun at work. The point of the show is to demonstrate that even without purpose or meaning, even when you are doing the grunt work, work can still be fun. And that's because of the people. That's because if you can have a good time with the people who are next to you, your co-shovelers, if you will, then you can still don't have great days.
54:19Like I've always thought I could do almost any job if I liked the people around me, you know, make, make me, I don't know, a snow shoveler or, you know, like, well, I hurt my back. Sure. But if there's like someone that I kind of dig also shoveling snow next to me, then it's not, it's not so bad. And simply when it comes down to it, I just think we should like the people we spend our days with. Like that's really it at its essence. And I think so often, I think there's been such a backlash from do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life to like, oh, I'm just here to work. I don't need to be friends with these people.
54:59I'm just going to show up and do my job. Well, I think that leaves a lot on the table when you're spending 40, 50, 60 hours a week at work, more time with those people than you spend with your family or friends. It just seems real simple to me. Like, I don't know, you should probably like them. You should, I don't know, you should probably like be able to laugh with them. I think that it's probably the cheapest, easiest solve to any rough business patch. Team building is going to be one of the areas that I don't think AI is going to be able to replace, or at least not now, because AI is looking at these people should work very well on paper.
55:39yeah but that's the human element is taken out of anyone can write their resume out and make it look good for anybody else the temperament and humor and communication that goes along with that is a huge piece to that and if you want a productive company you need teams that gel who have their unique quirkiness that allows everything to work and and that's not anything about qualifications as it is chemistry the nature of consulting teams is that they sort of pop up and so i've launched dozens of different combinations of teams and i mean i'd like to think i do it well but like some some are like fine and then some are like magic like oh it's incredible yeah and there's nothing i mean ai is going to try they're going to try and create some archetypes.
56:34But there is something so special when a team, there's just a little bit of magic where you just like each other and gel that, yes, I think we've got a long way before AI is up in that business. Well, as a creative, I mean, and music especially is important to me. And of course, now there's all these AI bands and AI music. And I've been following it peripherally and looking at it and even messing with it a bit. And it's very intriguing. However, yet I still haven't seen what it can create when a band has a certain chemistry that makes them extraordinary. Sure, can it write crap pop songs all day long?
57:22Absolutely, just like anybody else. But can it go that one step up where something is so outside the box, but yet feels so incredibly good. I haven't come across that yet. Sales say differently, but I think the mass marketing and the herd is in a very good gauge of something like that. Yeah, and I think the point of making music and producing music, the point is not making the tune. The point is the self-expression. And what's so compelling about an artist is, or a band, Who are they? Where did they come from? Like, what were their influences? Like, what kind of life do they live? Who are they dating?
58:07Right. Like this, this makes the interest in the music as much as like that was a nice chord combination. And yeah, so AI. It's got it. Yeah, it's not it's not messing with that either. Well, as we wrap, I'd love to learn what are some small moves that we can make to maybe not like Johnny unbutton all your buttons or me like a deep V-neck, but unbutton the top button at work and like allow some of this fun to shine through. If we're in a culture where that hasn't happened or we've been really feeling like, man, work just isn't fun. What can we do from the seat that we're in? I'll offer two things.
58:47One is make a little micro mischief. I say micro mischief. I'm not trying to get anyone fired here. Look, don't show up in your stretchy pants if that's going to get you fired. This is my disclaimer. Don't come sue me. You got to read the room, right? Likewise, I'm not showing up to someone's wedding in a tracksuit, okay? And yet, there are always ways to push the boundaries a little bit. I don't know. Wear a fun sock. Maybe you do literally unbutton that top button. Maybe you wear a bright print. Now, I'm giving fashion examples, but they're also, it's sort of this behavioral adjustment where can you show up 3 % more yourself than you did yesterday?
59:33Sometimes for me, that means crossing my legs in a meeting instead of sitting with them on the floor because I find that comfortable. It could be making a joke where you might not have made the joke. It could be divulging something about yourself. Like, oh, I woke up and I like, I slept on my neck a little weird last night. All of these acts of micro-humanity endear people to you. Like, oh, yeah, I had a neck problem, too, like last night. Or you see someone sitting cross-legged in a meeting. That's a cue that, oh, that person feels safe enough to subvert a norm. And therefore, maybe I can, too.
1:00:13So it's all about can we ratchet up the humanity at work step by step? But the other small thing that you can do, speaking of friendship and co-shit shovelers, is think about how can you make someone else's day? Sometimes that's the fastest way to make our day better is to make someone else's day better. Can you send a little two-line DM that's like, oh, you were so good in that meeting. I don't know how you get everyone on the same page, but it was awesome. It takes you two seconds. You have a good thought. You send a good thought. And now that person is thinking about that for the rest of the day.
1:00:50And how good would it feel if you got a little like, hey, that, you know, summary you did was totally on point. It just sort of jumpstarts this culture of I see you. I know you. I think you're awesome. Which is really like the bedrock of liking each other, which then is the bedrock of like we can have some fun at work together. The ripple effect of that is profound in ways that we don't realize. So we all kind of follow the norm, but one person in a micro mischievous way, breaking it, and then trying something a little different next month. And over time, everyone unbuttoning that top button creates the space and the environment for us to start to bring fun back into something that we are doing, whether we like it or not.
1:01:40Unfortunately, not very many of our audience members are independently wealthy. So we are tapped into the economy and we are working. And if we can bring fun into it, then it makes the 8, 10, 12 hours, whatever we're working on a daily basis, just that much better. The pain is optional. You're there to create value, build some relationships, and hopefully one day you'll be like my grandpa and Lloyd, you know, sitting back over a beer thinking about the good old days at the office. Or bitching about each other, as Johnny says. Lloyd. Yeah, that's right. Where can an audience find out more about the book?
1:02:15You can get it wherever books are sold. Today was fun. A book about work, seriously. And our direct route is you can find me at my website, briegroff.com. B-R-E-E-G-R-O-F-F.com. From there, you can find my sub stack, my book, you know, come say hey on LinkedIn and Instagram and all that. Well, today was fun, Brie. Pun intended. Yay, that's the goal. It was. I had a great time. Thank you for having me. Thank you for joining us.
1:02:50And that concludes another episode of the Art of Charm podcast. And now comes a part of the show where we showcase one of our X Factor Accelerator members. Take it away, Preston. Hey, everyone. This is Preston from Mesa, Arizona. I joined the Art of Charm because after transitioning out of the military, I noticed I was struggling with building connections and relationships with people on a personal scale. And it didn't help on the business side of things either. I tried a lot of different coaching programs, YouTube, personal growth videos, the works. And the great thing about Art of Charm is it's not a pill that you can just take to quickly fix everything.
1:03:21They have a system and a structure so that you can build what you need to to to see the matrix in yourself and actually get the results that you're looking for in the end. the awesome thing, AJ, Johnny, Michael, they work with you one-on-one as well as they put a lot of time and effort to set up continual meetings there during the week and groups. Again, I would highly recommend this. You're going to see the matrix. You're going to see things that'll help you connect and build great relationships. Thank you, Preston. And it was a pleasure working with you too. And good luck to you and your future endeavors.
1:03:53If you've gotten value out of this or any of our podcasts, head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review this show and mean the world to us and it helps others find the show until next week go out there and be charming
1:04:30I'll be back on the yesterday Yeah, but I remember you Oh, yeah, I remember you Yeah, but I remember you Yeah, but I remember you
From the publisher
What if the reason change feels so hard is because you're using the wrong psychological model to navigate it? In this episode, AJ and Johnny sit down with transformation expert Bree Groff to break down the hidden mechanics of personal and organizational change. Bree reveals why people resist transitions, how to diagnose the real source of friction, and the counterintuitive moves that make change stick—whether you're shifting a habit, a relationship dynamic, or an entire team culture. You’ll learn simple, science-backed frameworks to reduce overwhelm, increase adaptability, and guide yourself (and others) through uncertainty with clarity and confidence.
[00:00:00] Why change feels emotionally threatening—not just logically difficult[00:01:12] The 3-part model Bree uses to diagnose any transition[00:03:05] How to spot the “real” resistance hidden beneath stated objections[00:04:47] Why people cling to the familiar—even when it no longer works[00:06:10] The psychology of endings and why they matter more than beginnings[00:07:52] The power of micro-moves when big change feels impossible[00:09:18] How to create momentum using Bree’s “change curve”[00:10:41] What leaders get wrong when guiding people through transitions[00:12:33] How to make change feel safe instead of overwhelming[00:14:02] Bree’s practical steps to build a resilient, adaptable identity
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Today Was Fun
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