Avoid The High Achiever’s Trap | Dr. Mary Anderson

25:46When we assume we know what other people are thinking. And really, we can't know what other people are thinking unless they tell us and they tell us the truth. And the other kind of flavor, there's two flavors of the jump to conclusions. The other one is negative fortune telling. And that's when we predict that something isn't going to go well, even though it hasn't happened yet. So patients will come in and be like, I know the project's going to be a flop. I know I'm not going to pass the exam, Dr. A. I work with lots of law students and grad students. So they're already predicting negatively.

26:17And And that doesn't help them because, you know, if they're going into something like a job interview, which I have a lot of people with job interview anxiety, and if they're thinking to themselves, like, what if I freeze up? What if I stumble over my words? If they're thinking that, how are they going to feel? So much more anxious, nervous, tense, and then behaviorally that can manifest that they're not as engaged. They're not as present and maybe not asking as many questions. So if we can help people recognize that jumping to inclusions is not going to be helpful. So for that person who's going to the job interview, if we can help that person just shift their mindset to, wow, I'm so excited I got this interview.

26:55You know, I'm so excited about the possibility of getting this job. So we're not having people tell themselves poly and unrealistic stuff like I'm sure I'll get the job because that's we have no idea if we're going to get it. But can we know that we're excited and maybe even grateful we got it? Yeah. So a balanced thought that's going to move us forward needs to be believable. Right. So that's part of the key of how to create a balanced thought. So a believable thought would be I'm so excited I got the interview. I'm grateful I got the interview. I'll, you know, try my best. And going in with that attitude, we're going to feel more motivated.

27:29maybe feeling grateful. And then behaviorally, we're going to be able to show up as our best. So that's jumping to inclusions. And then the last one is should statements, which is so ubiquitous to all, all of us at times we've showed ourselves, right? Like I hear all the time, Dr. Ray, I should be farther ahead. This should be easier for me. I shouldn't be so stressed. Look at what other people are doing and social media. I've found in social media can be wonderful if used, you know, to inspire or, you know, entertain. But often a lot of my clients are comparing themselves. So I call it the comparison trap.

28:03And even though these are very bright individuals and they can articulate verbally, Dr. A, I know social media is a curated space. It's a highlight reel of all the best photos, but still it impacts how they feel. They'll feel inadequate. They're shooting themselves that they should be different. They should be winning the awards like their friends are or meeting milestones. So this is where it's not just always professional, but Dr. Ray, all my friends are partnering up. I should be engaged by now. I should be married by now. I should have a house by now. You know, my friends are having kids. I should be doing that.

28:35And they're just shooting themselves and they don't recognize that that's not going to move them forward. Shoulds keep us stuck. They really make us feel, you know, anxious, inadequate, guilty. So should statements are a big one that I work on. So all or nothing, jump into inclusions and should statements. Those Those are the troublesome trifecta, the cognitive distortions that most often flag high achievers and really are obstacles for them to enjoying excellence. Yeah, it robs us of our happiness in the moment. And especially when we're looking at trying to unpack those, as Johnny said, but then launching the next one.

29:10So it's like, OK, well, I'm going to get fired. They're going to find out I'm an imposter. Oh, OK, I'm actually not going to get fired, but I should be farther along. I should have been right. And it just kind of goes on down the list. And you can see how when you hold on to one and then you grasp the next one with that distorted reality, it's so hard for you to find the balance that you need for the self-care that we talked about earlier, building and growing the relationships that are so helpful and sustaining to us, and then leaning in in our career. So if you're going into a job interview with the mindset of I'm prepared, I'm excited for this opportunity or the job interview thinking, oh, I'm going to make a mistake.

29:48Then the second you flub your word on the first, you're going to be like, well, I'm prepared. I'm going to keep rolling with it. This is going to be a great interview. You're going to leave the interview thinking you still did good because you thought you were prepared going in. But on the second side, if you're thinking about, oh, one mistake is going to sink me and then you make that mistake, it's going to be very hard for you to recover after that flub, after that faux pas, after that thing you didn't want to say to reset yourself, to stay confident and showcase who you are in the interview process.

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31:32Visit rexmd.com slash charm. That's rexmd.com slash charm. See full details and usage at rexmd.com. Prescription required. Results may vary. I really work a lot with people on not fearing making mistake because it's actually the fear of making a mistake and or the self-present after the mistake that derails them. Like you said, flubbing one word. I mean, we're human. Sometimes even in session, I'll, not that I'm deliberately trying to, but sometimes organically, I will flub a word and then I'll point it out to my patient who's a high achiever, who's really trying to be perfect. And I'll say, hey, did you just see what I just said?

32:15I flubbed a word. Or sometimes I'll say, what word am I thinking of? Like, which verb is the best usage here? And I'll say, wow, see how I do that? Like just to normalize, we all have moments where, you know, we're not rocking polysyllabic verbiage like eloquently and perfectly. That's just, it's not something that we have to aspire to do because it will limit us and reminding ourselves we're human. So I often encourage people strive to be your best, but just remember that you're human. So our best will differ by the day. We can't be like automatons where everything is perfect. And, And, you know, on those days that you're getting eight hours of sleep, the functioning that you might have after that versus if you travel internationally.

32:56So if I have consultants, they're traveling, you know, 15 plus hour flights and they're expecting themselves to just hop off the plane and be all chipper and be able to perform in the same exact way. That's just not realistic. So helping them understand a good night's sleep versus if you have the flu or jet lag or if people are dealing with romantic breakups or any type of loss. for them to understand that the best on those days will look different. But if they are truly doing their best, that that is them striving for excellence. That is something to give themselves credit for and to be encouraging to themselves like they would a dear friend.

33:31Self-compassion is not about weakness. Researcher Kristin Neff is phenomenal with her research around self-compassion, right? And she teaches us that it's such an important skill that we can learn and we can practice and that it actually will help improve outcomes. It improves things like resiliency and being able to bounce back after adversity. That's how we're gonna be sustainably high achieving because we all will fail at times, but the quicker we can pick ourselves back up and keep moving forward, that's how we'll have another achievement. Achievement gets harder as a high achiever. So it's often so hard for us, we're looking up the mountain at the mountaintop and it seems so far away and very rarely are we taking pause and looking at all the achievements along the way that got us there.

34:17And if you're a high achiever, well, that next achievement is going to be difficult. It is going to be hard. It's not going to come as easy as your previous achievements. And I think, unfortunately, the way school is set up, you know, you can test out of things, you get quick achievements, and you start feeling like, oh, I have all this positive momentum. And then you change to a new career. And now you're like, oh, wow, I don't have the skills that I thought. And that achievement takes longer. So we tie our self-worth to this achievement. and when it's delayed for any reason, then we really beat ourselves up.

34:47So how can we start to disentangle our self-worth from that achievement when especially people outside of us see us as high achievers, celebrate us for those achievements and internally we're really struggling because it's been a while since our last achievement because the achievements are getting harder. I work with people on understanding the value of looking at process and outcome, not just outcome. And to your point, I think so often we're celebrated only because of the outcome. I think we see people, you know, in the media who have these, you know, bestselling books or, you know, best bestselling movies or songs or whatever it is, some kind of product out there.

35:27And we think they're that overnight success. But we know, right, when you actually get to know people who've been successful, it takes years, right? Patience and perseverance. And I would say, dream big, do the work, expect miracles, but you got to do the work. And I think that's the part on social media who is posting pictures of themselves, you know, getting up in the morning, doing, you know, the training workout. They're just not, or like, you know, slogging away at, you know, editing pages of the book. I think we don't often value process as much, but I think Knowing that if you can learn to love the process and focus on the daily process, that is actually what helps you be sustainably successful.

36:11And then celebrating, celebrating the small wins, celebrating the progress wins, not just the huge outcomes. And I talk about that essential number seven, celebrate the victories. Because the thing I see, how often you guys see this, where you'll have this high achiever who's working fervently. They're ardently working towards this important goal. And then they come back and see you and you're like, how did it go? And they're like, oh yeah, I did the thing. But now I'm working on this, right? So they're onto the next book. They're onto the next case. They're onto the next project, whatever it is.

36:41And they haven't paused to say, wow, I did this thing. You know, I had a thought of what I wanted. I put in the hard work and I made it happen. So I think celebrating the victories, big and small, is what's going to fuel us as we are on our journey climbing the next big mountain that we're endeavoring to climb. We're pretty strict with our clients on understanding what those processes look like and finding enjoyment through that. Certainly tying your core values to those processes will certainly help. But also, I mean, because we're online so much, having an understanding of what marketing looks and sounds like.

37:25So you don't start buying into it in your regular life. That$100 ,000 million trillion funnel is a marketing campaign. The instant success, the 12 weeks to this, the one funnel away from freedom. All of these things are marketing ploys. whether or not you find it that they are scrupulous or not, it's aside the point, but we're inundated with it so much. So it's hard to keep those things at bay and allow them to seep into our brain and then start wondering and getting upset that we're not where we need to be. But we have to go back to what those processes look like and find enjoyment there. And we love your concept of victory awards.

38:21We work with all of our clients in our group setting around small victories. It used to be Small Victory Monday. Now it's Small Victory Tuesday because we shuffle the schedule. But either way, what was so interesting is when you ask people in a group setting, what are your wins or what are your victories? It's crickets. They look around because they feel in comparison to others like, well, that victory is not worth celebrating. That talking to a stranger on the bus or having a great job interview, that's not worth celebrating. Someone else got promoted last week, so I can't speak up. But the second we gave them permission around small victory, small victory Monday, let us know what was that win from last week that you personally are proud of.

38:57It doesn't matter what the rest of the group is doing. That permission led to so much more celebration in the group and getting excited to show up. And people are participating just to say their small victory. Hey, I just wanted to bounce in today to say my small victory, and I'm busy with work. I got to jump off, but I want to hear everyone else's small victories. It's so hard as a high achiever to pause for those smaller moments, give yourself the pat on the back, give yourself the, hey, I'm still climbing the mountain. I'm processing and the book's going to get published, but I finished the outline or I finished chapter one.

39:28And that's off to the editor. And I'm excited about that. But so much of life is the small victory. Like, that's what we're celebrating. We can't wait for the big victories because if you are a high achiever, they're meant to be few and far between. That's why we're achieving. And I think sometimes high achievers kind of conflate pausing with paralysis. And that's not so they think that if they're going to pause to celebrate, that means like, oh, I'm stopping and I'm not continuing to work towards the bigger thing. And what I try to help people kind of reframe for themselves is that we're not paralyzed.

40:06We're not stopping. We're just pausing to like take in the air and have a snack on the way to the summit of the mountain, because actually that's what's going to fuel you forward to the summit. And so helping them understand how, again, those thoughts, feelings, behaviors all really relate. And that by taking a moment and say, wow, I did just, you know, submit that, you know, first draft to an editor or I sat down and I started I opened a document. Sometimes when people are in what I call perfectionism fueled procrastination, where they're so terrified about not having the project or essay or whatever it is turn out perfect, they won't even start because they're so afraid they're not going to get it right.

40:47that even just opening like a Word document on their computer and starting some bullet points or even just pen in hand, write them out, you know, on a pad of paper, that deserves a moment of celebration, which sounds so small. But what you just did by starting, you overcame inertia, which is a very real and powerful force in the world. So I love getting people together and celebrating the small stuff. I think that there's just such an awesome energy. And it made me think, so my book came out in September and I had a book launch in a bookstore. And I said, I'm so grateful to everyone for coming here to celebrate this victory.

41:27I thought of this book in 2012, the happy high achiever was just a thought back then. You're all here celebrating. And I said, I wanna make sure that all of you feel as good when you leave as I feel right now. So what I did is I had them pair up because sometimes people, you know, the large group, like you said, can feel intimidating. So I had them pair up and tell each other and listen to what a victory was. And I said, just like you did that idea of the small victory, which really is a powerfully important victory, but to them, it might feel small. So it was September. So I said, you know, if you got your kids back into the school routine, that's a victory.

42:03Just getting here tonight was a victory. you know, really giving them permission, like you said, to to allow themselves to pause and appreciate what they've done for themselves, that it doesn't have to be that they published a book or they ran the marathon or did anything huge. Because like, again, like you said, those major peak moments are few and far between. That's not where we live most of our lives. We the training days, on the plateau of the terrain, not the peak, not the very summit. So I think the more we normalize that and teach people really, you know, how to embrace celebrating the small victories, that's what's going to fuel them to be sustainably happy and high achieving.

42:50And something to take into consideration, if they can't celebrate their win without diminishing the work that they put in or the win itself or themselves in doing that, that's another habit that needs to be corrected because they're they're they're putting up hurdles in front of themselves to get the to actually receive that victory yeah it's it's funny how often they will try to use softening of language or change what the small victory is instead of just state the small victory they'll say but anyways that doesn't really matter they'll rush to the next thing, they don't want to actually elevate what in their mind is small because they feel diminished by doing it.

43:36And something else that brings up shame that you just touched on that I'd love to unpack further is the procrastination. Because so many high achievers, again, because of the way the world perceives them and the feedback that we've received outside from other people, well, then they expect us to achieve. They celebrate us for our achievement. And then when we know that we're procrastinating and we're not achieving and we're not opening that Word document or we're avoiding opening that book or avoiding that thing through procrastination, there's a lot of shame that comes along with that procrastination that can be really hard for high achievers to deal with.

44:10So if we find ourselves procrastinating as high achievers, what can we start to do to open that Word doc mentally to get us moving in the right direction again?

44:26that thoughts, feelings, behaviors, I always go back to it. So if you notice a behavior that you're doing, that you're, that you're wishing was different. So in this case, procrastination, you're like, this is not helping me move forward. So if you're ever stuck behaviorally, I always encourage people work backwards, right? Because they all directly impact each other. You can work backwards, reverse engineering. And you can ask yourself, what am I telling myself right now? Because it's very likely that you're telling yourself something likely a cognitive distortion that is fueling that inaction, right?

44:56Because again, those cognitive distortions almost always keep us stuck. They don't help us perform at our best. So in that moment of procrastination, to ask yourself, which thought am I focusing on right now? And again, I wanna normalize, we're gonna have thousands of thoughts a day, but what matters is which thought we focus our attention on. And I call it, where are you shining your flashlight? So if my patient comes in and they're stressed out and they're overwhelmed, they're procrastinating, I'll say, where are you shining your flashlight right now? And so just like a flashlight, you can shine to the left or the right, up or down, and that's what we'll see.

45:28And the rest stays in the background. That's just like where we choose to focus our attention in terms of which thought we're focusing our attention on. And so I'll say to people, where are you shining your flashlight? And often when people are procrastinating, their thought process is very all or nothing. Dr. A, this is going to be so hard. It's going to be like so much work. And like, I know that my colleagues could be doing this better. So then they might even do some mind reading. Be like, I know people aren't going to like what I come up with. It's not going to be good enough. So they are just really not helping their cause with their self-talk.

46:05They are just really self-critical. And in that moment, sometimes I'll ask them this very simple question, but it's a really handy litmus test for oneself, which is, would I say this to a friend? And so when they're like, well, you know, so in that moment of self-doubt, I'll say, would you ever say to a friend who's embarking upon, you know, creating a major presentation or starting to write a book or anything major, would you say, you know, it's really not going to go well. People are going to see right through you. They are going to now know that you are not as smart and talented as they once thought that you don't even deserve to be here.

46:43What are you doing? You're so incompetent. Would you ever say that to a friend? And obviously they're like, no. Why? And I say, why not? And they're like, because that's mean and not helpful. And I'm like, but you're saying it to yourself. So that's a quick and easy litmus test for oneself is, would you say this to a friend? So a quick way to come up with a balanced or more helpful thought is, what would I say to a friend right now? Right? You would say to a friend, just get started. You know, it's probably not going to be that harder. You've done hard things before, right? Those encouraging, compassionate words you would say to a friend, work on trying that for yourself.

47:19And we know from so much research that it's just so much more helpful in both our mood and our productivity when we're helping ourselves think in a more helpful, happiness-promoting way. And one of my favorite quotes actually is, there's this quote by William James, who is considered the father of American psychology. And he said, the greatest weapon against stress is our ability to choose one thought over another. And I love it because again, it highlights, we're going to have lots of different thoughts. We can't stop our thoughts from happening. But the greatest weapon against stress is our ability to choose one thought over another.

47:53So if the thought that you're telling yourself is really not helping yourself, to just even shift yourself to a more balanced thought, a more helpful thought that moves you forward, that's going to help decrease your stress, decrease that feeling of overwhelm and anxiety or panic and dread. And that's what's going to behaviorally move you forward. So people can start talking to themselves in more helpful ways. It'll move them forward. Despite being able to focus on different thoughts, there's going to be thoughts that are more comfortable than others. And if those comfortable thoughts are not beneficial, if they're detrimental to our well-being and happiness and production, then we're going to have to get comfortable choosing new thoughts that are beneficial towards us.

48:42the reason that the old thoughts or the ones that you've chosen are comfortable is because those are the ones that you've always have chosen. And if they're not helping you, they're hurting you and you'll have to make that change. Yeah. Oftentimes it can feel difficult in shifting that thought because it's a well-worn pattern. If it's cognitive distortion, we've relied on quite a bit, it can feel like a challenge. Well, how do I think of something else or how do I view this in a different way? I've never had to do that before. or there's discomfort tied to it. But the other side of that discomfort is actually you unlocking a better way forward, a better way of treating yourself and talking to yourself.

49:21Absolutely. I tell my patients all the time, thank goodness for neuroplasticity, right? Our brain's awesome ability to adapt and change. And that's the good news. The more that we practice these more helpful, balanced thoughts, even if initially it feels uncomfortable, which it makes sense if it would, but the more we practice, the less frequent those unhelpful thoughts will become. So we might still have those. I like to normalize that. It doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong if you're having cognitive distortions. But again, the good news is the more you practice the more balanced, helpful thought, that's going to be what decreases the frequency of those less helpful types of thoughts.

49:56So that's the motivator of trying to practice the more balanced type of thinking. And again, keep it believable. I really encourage people. I'm very much an optimist, but we can't do Pollyanna thinking, you know, so I have people many times come in and say, you know, I have to do this presentation in front of my colleagues. I can't do it. I hate public speaking. You know, what am I going to do, doctor? I can't do it. I can't do it. They're going to, you know, they're going to see how nervous I am. And so am I going to tell that patient, well, just tell yourself, you, you love public speaking. You'll do it fantastically.

50:30No, that's not going to be a helpful balance. That's not a balance. It's again, our thoughts impact our feelings because we believe them. So if we're trying to force ourselves to accept a thought that is totally unrealistic to us, it won't move the needle in terms of decreasing our stress and anxiety. So a believable thought for that person. So I've helped many, many a client with the public speaking anxiety. What we try to get them is to just shift from, I can't do it, which is, is actually quite all or nothing, right? Being like, I can't do it. Usually what we get them to ship to is, I don't like public speaking or I wish I didn't have to do it, but I've done hard things before, but I have given presentations before and I can practice and do my best.

51:16So you see how much more balanced that is. And we really use the evidence from their background, from the facts of the situation to create that balanced thought that's believable and moves them forward. So it's got to be believable. There's one last exercise that I'd love to share with our audience. And Johnny and I are huge fans of a gratitude practice. We talk to our clients about that, but oftentimes they might push back and say it feels hokey or, oh, do I have to be grateful for the same things over and over again? So we get a lot of questions around a great gratitude practice. And you have a wonderful one in the book.

51:50Thank you, Maui, as an exercise I'd love to share with our audience. I think there's this myth out there that like, first we have to be successful and then we'll be happy. And then when we're happy, then we'll be grateful. But that's completely backwards. What research shows? We know that when people are grateful, what does that mean? That means they're focusing their thoughts, their attention on what is good and meaningful and valuable in their lives, right? That's shining your flashlight very strategically on something that will actually empower you to notice what is going well. Doesn't mean denying what's hard or challenging in your life.

52:22It's not about denial. It's never about pasting, you know, a fake smile on your face. But gratitude really is empowering us to notice what's going well or what's meaningful or valuable. And that then promotes happiness. And then again, from abundant research, we know when people are happier, they're much more productive, efficient, resilient, creative. They collaborate better with others. So we know that happiness fuels success. So I love always highlighting the importance of gratitude and start with gratitude. I always say that's a great starting point. So Thank You Maui is this cool mashup that I came up with where I was teaching people guided imagery, which is great for relaxation, where you're going to, you know, close your eyes and visualize a place that feels peaceful and relaxing to you.

53:09And then I realized, what if I just encourage them to practice visualizing a place that they're really grateful, that they're really grateful that they were able to visit somewhere special to them. And so we're adding this component of gratitude kind of infused within a science-based relaxation strategy that, you know, most any clinician doing CBT, especially for relaxation, is going to probably teach guided imagery, visualization to help people relax. And for busy high achievers, knowing that they can take five, 10 minutes out of the day, even if it's five minutes, three, if that's all they have, you know, just whatever you can take.

53:49and when you can just sit quietly, you close your eyes, you visualize somewhere. For me, it was Maui, one of the most beautiful places I've ever been. And to just be grateful that you've been there and to use your five senses, you know, so what are you seeing when you visualize it? What is, what does it smell like? What does it feel? What's the taste, the, the salt of, you know, the ocean and the air that you almost taste a little bit of. Um, when you do that, what we know it can help calm the nervous system. And that's awesome because as high achievers, we're chronically in the stress response.

54:23We have all that cortisol and adrenaline kind of pumping through us. And we need to strategically make moments in the day to decrease that cortisol, to relax our nervous system. And that's really what's going to help us feel better and perform at our best. So Thank You, Mali, is again, a mashup of a guided imagery where you're practicing thinking about one of your favorite places that's peaceful, promoting, and then adding that gratitude to it of really acknowledging how grateful you are that you appreciate that you were able to visit that place. And sometimes thinking about what would life be like if you had never visited that place?

55:03Sometimes that's another way to access gratitude is to think about what if I didn't have that. And, you know, that not everyone has that special place. You know, like I've been able to be fortunate to go to Maui. Not everyone's been able to do that and to really to access gratitude in that way that it's really a special privilege to be able to have a place that is peace promoting for us. So I love that you guys are embracing gratitude and helping promote it, you know, for other people as well. And we're grateful that you joined us today. This has been a great episode. And I love all the concepts that are in the book.

55:37So where can our audience find out more about the work you do, Dr. A and the book? My website, MaryAndersonPhD.com. So www.maryandersonphd.com. I'm on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, so they can look me up there as well. And my book, The Happy High Achiever is now on Amazon, all major booksellers. And we found out it's going to be translated into five languages thus far. So I'm super excited. So I really hope that it just helps as many people as possible. That's my major goal in life is help as many people as possible. So I'm just, I'm so grateful that I've been able to have this opportunity to put a book in the world and to be able to be here talking with you guys today.

56:21This has been so much fun. It's been awesome. I really appreciate you guys. Thank you for joining us.

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57:45It was a pleasure working with you too, and good luck to all your future endeavors. If you've gotten value out of this or any of our podcasts, head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show. It means the world to us, and it helps others find the show. all right before we head out a huge thank you to our producers Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery till next week go out there and crush it yeah I remember you you were the bad boy you threw your love away like you were just a toy and you sold the world you're a song of a tragedy Cause you had your taste Of black only yesterday Yeah, but I remember you Oh yeah, I remember you

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