Combating Loneliness Through Community Spaces | Aaron Greiner

0:00When it comes to what your family eats and drinks, you know your choices matter. You're the expert because you know what fits your life. And getting it right starts with good information. That's why America's beverage companies are sharing more information about our ingredients at goodtoknowfacts.org. No spin, no judgments, just the facts straight from the experts for more than 140 beverage ingredients. Visit goodtoknowfacts.org. If we could actually create more of these spaces, and even if they're temporary, even if they're pop-ups, which again is a much quicker, cheaper way to do it, that we could start to get people to see and experience the value of them, and that would in turn affect really long-term change.

0:55Welcome to the Art of Charm podcast, where we break down the science of powerful communication and winning mindsets so you have the cheat code to succeed with people. Every episode is jam-packed with actionable steps to unlock the hidden superpowers inside of you. Level up with us each week by listening to interviews with the best in business, psychology, and relationships. We distill thousands of hours of research in the most effective tools and the latest science so you can start winning today. Let's face it, in order to be seen and heard, your communication needs to cut through the noise. And we're going to show you how.

1:27I'm AJ, successfully recovered introvert, entrepreneur, and self-development junkie. And I'm Johnny Zubak, former touring musician, promoter, rock and roller, and co-founder here at The Art of Charm. And for the last 15 years, we've trained thousands of top performers and teams from every background. We have dedicated our lives to teaching men and women all they need to know about communication, networking, and relationships. You shouldn't have to settle for anything less than extraordinary. All right, let's kick off today's show. Today we're talking with Aaron Grenier, and we discuss the power of a third place.

2:02Aaron is an urban designer who is passionate about creating sustainable, livable, and equitable cities. He's also the executive director at Culture House, an organization that's made its mission to improve the life quality of local communities through a very interesting approach. They transform underutilized spaces into social infrastructure. You'll often hear us talk about the importance of a third place in our lives, and Aaron and his team are building exactly that in communities in the U.S. So welcome to the show, Aaron. And I know this was probably an odd request for you to come on, and I'm going to give you a little bit of a backstory of why I reached out.

2:38So for our audience, they have heard AJ and I talk about third place, which is not your work and not your home. It's outside of both of those as a place of gathering community and meeting people. And there was an incredible book written about third places called The Great Good Place by Ray Oldenburg. And I had read that book quite a long time ago. And in my youth, and I'll probably include AJ in this as well, you know, when we were younger, we really enjoyed the dive bar scene. And certainly I've made several dive bars my third place as well. And it wasn't about the drinking, it was about the community and the camaraderie and just being social.

3:24And that was the atmosphere that I enjoyed. And the thing that makes a great third place is that if there's parlor games there, they're set up in order for people to communicate and to meet each other and to socialize. And there is no rankings of tables and stages that separates you from everybody else. It's everybody is in there and everyone is equal. Everything's arranged for everyone to easily socialize and be seen and heard. And because everyone is equal, if I have an opinion that AJ or you don't like, you're free to tell me to shut up and I'm free to tell you to shut up. But the reality is for all of our lives, that's how we gathered, that's how we socialized, and that's how we built amazing communities.

4:19And you could also say that a lot of revolutions were forged from third places. Now, if revolutions were forged in third places and they don't make the city the money that they want them to make, well, Ray Oldenburg draws a line in the book about just why we're not seeing our cafes in France anymore, the pubs in Britain anymore, the dive bars in America, and the cafes in Italy. Those have been drawn out due to not being able to make the money that they need to survive. And our social lives are obviously not on the government's list of priorities. So it is up to us to do that. And that's what we're going to discuss today.

5:05So I would like to open it up and just share the floor with you of telling us a little bit about your work and why you got into it and a bit of your backstory. Absolutely. We appreciate you having me here. And I am always excited about a chance to talk about third spaces, public spaces, and why they're so important. So yeah, I am the executive director of Culture House for an urban design nonprofit based in Boston, and really focusing on what we like to refer to as social infrastructure. And that is another word for a third space, But we really, you know, think about it as the places that we build and form community connections.

5:49And my journey to this work, actually, like many people's journey to this work, very few people really kind of set out to study this. Most people discover it. And it's things that I love about working in kind of the world of social infrastructure. But my journey really came from experiences that I had. I was working on questions and topics of art redesign and of engineering and international development. And I had a chance to visit and study in Copenhagen, where they have a lot of these kind of third spaces. And I started to notice that I could be in a space and I maybe could buy a coffee, but I didn't have to.

6:30Maybe I could get a drink, but I didn't have to. I could meet a friend. I could listen to music. And it became this really freeing and welcoming space for me. And when I kind of returned back to the U.S., returned back to Boston, I started noticing that there is a real lack of truly accessible public third spaces. spaces and you know whether that meant that there is a significant financial barrier to entry or that meant that you know we were kind of thinking about parks as our only third spaces which if anyone you know listening it lives in the northeast or any part of the u.s where it's not beautiful weather year-round you'll know that you know parks aren't always going to be a place you can gather in the dead of the winter and at the same time though started to notice that we had also tons of underutilized spaces.

7:17Especially in a lot of our urban areas, we are so constrained on space, and yet you still see vacant storefronts. And so we kind of asked this question of, what if we turned one of those vacant storefronts into a temporary public space? And because we know, like, okay, if we want to build a new public space, that's going to take years. So he said, what if instead of kind of planning for a huge long-term project, we tried to open something up in a matter of months, not a matter of years. And so we really kind of took that charge. We tried it out. We did a month-long pop-up community space in a previously underutilized storefront area.

8:00And we kind of said, if no one likes it, if everyone says, hey, what are you doing here? I don't need this. Then great. We did our work, we can back up and go home. But that's not what happened. People really connected. And the response that most got me is that people would come by the space. It was open for 30 days. We had over those three days, like over 50 events, everything from like a dog show to we were watching the World Cup together. And people would come in and they would say, I've been looking for a place like this, I just didn't know it could exist. And that's what really made us understand that we had hit on something interesting.

8:42Because people were craving these kinds of community spaces, but because they haven't had exposure to them, they actually didn't even know they were possible. And so we thought if we could actually create more of these spaces, and even if they're temporary, even if they're pop-ups, which again is a much quicker, cheaper way to do it, that we could start to get people to see and experience the value of them, and that would in turn affect really long-term change. So that was almost seven years ago now, and we've been lucky to continue on this journey and do projects with many communities and have really expanded our work into now really helping communities to pilot these kinds of spaces to address needs that they're really seeing in their local community and then use that to also affect long-term change.

9:30So Aaron, it seems to me that more than ever, people are craving connection. And I think a lot of that is due to being locked up for two years with COVID. People were very, there was a lot of folks who were afraid of coming out after that due to that. When we look at what has taken over, what our third places are, they're chat rooms, right? We're all on the internet now and we're all meeting people that way. However, there's many facets to why that is problematic. But one just being that with this so-called culture war going on, regardless of that, the connections and networking that you're going to do on the internet isn't very deep.

10:12It's superficial. We even have looked at the science of just doing a Zoom like this doesn't reach everything that it needs to for us to be satisfied with that connection. And part of that is due to not being face-to-face in real life, we're unable to see the micro expressions that we mirror that allow us to connect. There's a lot of that going on. You mentioned that you had been doing this for seven years. Had you noticed a shift or difference before the pandemic and after the pandemic of how it was received and how people saw it? The answer is, like most things that the pandemic did, it exacerbated an existing issue.

10:58And so we saw that before. I think we saw even more urgency, even more need for that. What we also saw to the pandemic is that a lot of the space we relied on as our third spaces were not actually able to sustain that function in the midst of COVID. And I think a lot of them have come back to that. The kind of examples that I could give are, I really believe that we need a strong network of public spaces, of social infrastructure, of third spaces. And those will include businesses. Those will include parks. Those will include libraries. Those will include places like Culture House pop-ups. But the issue is that we have relied for a long time very heavily on commercial spaces to provide our third spaces.

11:44And there's a couple issues with that. One is, of course, while a lot of spaces are very, you know, you don't have to buy something if you're there. A lot of spaces, some spaces now are, especially started in COVID, it's continuing now, are enforcing time limits. I've seen coffee shops that say you have a time limit for how long you can be here. So there can often be a real like that financial barrier to entry. But also during when the pandemic really started, most businesses had to, because of their model, had to focus on making money. They had to focus on sales to make sure that they could be open.

12:15And so that meant we're moving a lot of the public access and focusing on other coffee shops and anywhere that just like they're like, we're just going to do a takeout window. Like we don't have the ability to actually manage even having outdoor seating. And so I think what it just did show is that we need to have this broad network because it makes us more resilient during a time of crisis to be able to still provide as a central service. And I want to also just back up quickly and highlight a couple of things that you just mentioned because I think they're really important. I want to mention, you know, we think about why is it important to have these kinds of spaces?

12:45And there are two very interesting researchers that I want to bring into this that literally have shown that it's actually a matter of life and death. So there's a sociologist, Eric Kleinenberg, who did a bunch of research work around social infrastructure. He's actually one of the ones really popularized that term. He did a particular study where he looked at the 1990s Chicago heat wave. And he found that once you accounted for all other factors, race, socioeconomic status, everything else, communities that had fewer public spaces saw higher rates of mortality. And the reason was that people didn't know their neighbors because they didn't have a chance to meet them.

13:28And so when the heat wave hit, the communities with good infrastructure, you know, you knew that your neighbor down the block was older or didn't have an air conditioner and you helped them out. And so a lot of people that died during that crisis died alone in their apartments. And so there's research that shows that there was a similar effect with the pandemic, that communities with worse infrastructure saw worse outcomes from it because there was not those networks. There's another fantastic researcher named Robert Putnam who has done a lot of work on this. And recently they released a kind of documentary about a lot of his work called Join or Die.

14:03And it is actually really focusing on the decline of clubs and social organizations. And traces a similar path to say that a lot of the division that we see is really a result of this declining membership. And I think there's a lot that comes from, but ultimately I think we have to focus on what are the reasons why it's still so important. You also are bringing up this kind of question and this notion of why it's so important to gather together and not just in digital spaces. And one of those is certainly about having a proximity to your community, a physical proximity and the support that brings.

14:39Another piece you mentioned about facial expressions from the urban design world is a really fascinating study that actually shows that at about 40 to 45 feet away from someone, we stop being able to recognize their facial expressions. And so if you live on a really wide street, you're less likely to know your neighbors across the street. And if you live on a narrow street, you may not know their name, you may not know much about them, but you've maybe waved hello to them. and if you need something, whether it's like as simple as, you know, the proverbial cup of sugar or it's something really serious, you're more likely to trust them.

15:17And so I think that really translates also into why it's so important to have those close connections to build social trust. Well, at the end of the day, we are herd animals and in order to feel safe, we need to be within the herd. And part of that is familiarity. So if we don't have that, we're going to have anxiety. We're at a core level. We're not going to feel very safe. I'm curious, looking at this problem historically, so you mentioned a visit to Denmark and how it's different in Europe than it is here. What are some of the historical causes that are behind this decline in the U.S. in particular?

15:57Yeah, it's a good question. And there is a lot of kind of conjecture about exactly where it's coming from. I think we can draw a couple of threads. For the most part, people actually haven't found that living in a more digital world has been the largest negative effect on this, that actually a lot of it is just that the way, there's a connection to that, of course, but it's maybe a little bit more indirect, that the way that we gather has changed. I mean, take for instance about even where we're living or the kind of the ways that we shop. If you're going to the store in your neighborhood to get, whether it's some groceries or it's to get a piece of paper, whatever it is, that you're spending time in your community.

16:39If everything's getting delivered to your door, that's removing a chance that you have to connect to your community. And that kind of changing commerce pattern, while it's not, there can be lots of advantages to that, it means that we need to reflect and say, how are we filling the gap that that once took? there is larger connections to the further division that we experienced there I think there's a kind of chicken and egg thing there right like as a push and pull that more division has created as opportunities to meet others and it kind of is a self-perpetuating cycle and so I do think there's also an important need to to actively work against that cycle and we can eventually turn that into a positive feedback loop but it takes a lot of intention and effort to make that actually successful.

17:26Yeah, I think about the rise of secularity and the decline of institutions. So religion being a third place for many people centuries ago and institutions. So you mentioned social clubs, gatherings. A lot of these institutions provided those spaces that weren't commercialized, that would allow you to spend time without having to make money off of that. And those are in decline. And then COVID really pushed them further into decline. And one One thing that I've recognized about Europe and urban design is that they don't have suburbs like we have here that are just large, sprawling areas and massive superstores.

18:04It's happening. It's starting to happen in the cities I visited in Italy and France, but it's not nearly as massive of a movement outside of cities and into suburban spaces like there is in the U.S. And, you know, if you're spending time in Paris, you're walking to the market, you're walking past your neighbors, you're in that proximity as an urban design specialist, you know that creates that familiarity. Now we're in our cars, even if we aren't getting Amazon delivery. And that car then takes us to a massive superstore where we're spread out or maybe encountering one or two other people in an aisle on a trip.

18:35And then we head back home and we really are devoid of those proximity places that create that urge or at least the need for small talk to engage the community and to feel connected. Yeah, there's no question about it. You know, personal vehicles. And this disconnection from place is a huge factor. And I mean, that is why it is all connected here. But I mean, just as an amp, like I mean, I live in an extraordinarily walkable neighborhood and I regularly, you know, I have a luckily very short walk to work, but I'm walking to work. If I'm walking to the grocery store, I regularly see, you know, three, four, five people that I recognize.

19:15And there is really no substitute for the connections that you create during those just those very informal moments. And it's not something you have to plan for. It makes it part of your daily life. So it is certainly very tied to land use, very tied to the, you know, the actions of the U.S. government to prioritize really, I mean, every, of course, the suburbanization, but this also ties into the way that the U.S. government used redlining to physically segregate neighborhoods and push poor Blacker communities out of certain neighborhoods and, you know, using building highways to those neighborhoods as well, that there has been a lot of active destruction of those places that we used to use to form community.

20:02One very interesting example, you mentioned also the way that religion and declining religion has also, and those used to kind of serve as a lot of those gathering spaces. Actually in Denmark, there has also been a big decline in membership in religious organizations. And the government has actually taking a pretty deliberate effort to actually turn some of those old churches into now public community spaces to serve a similar role, but kind of using a different format. It's interesting because I see a lot of polls and data pointing that people since COVID are coming back to the church, but what they're not coming back to is those institutions and the church itself.

20:46And again, it goes to show how this technology tends to separate us as well. The other thing that I'm seeing online is more misanthropic sort of tones coming from people. And when you're not around people in a third place, when you're not conscious of that, when you're not working with people, well, it's easy to be misanthropic. If you're just on the internet all day, all you're going to see is all the worst parts of people. But when, let's say a disaster happens, such as the folks in Asheville, well, in order to fix that, the government was interfering with a lot of those folks. And the only way that they were able to get anything done and to move forward to clean this up was to get together as a community to do it themselves.

21:40And thinking about that, now I lived in North Carolina and I know the folks up there and it's a very, those are close-knit communities. But to have a catastrophe happen to that degree in some of these more urban communities, that scares me because while the communities are incredibly segregated, people we're not spending time together, or there is no connection between you and your neighbor. So we're seeing the effects of all of that go in one direction. And it's going to continue to move in that direction and get worse unless things are done. We can't wait for the government to go, oh, you know what?

22:22We have a loneliness crisis. We better start building some third places. That's not on the list. And it was a breath of fresh air when one of our clients had sent me the article that you were in. I was like, right on. So it's like, I want to get this guy on so other folks can hear what they can do about that as well. Let me provide a little bit of hope here, which is that I think we are finally seeing some movement towards identifying this as a need and also then giving it the funding and the focus that it deserves. And I will say that communities have always found places to gather. It is, I think, an inherent part of who we are is we gather.

23:03And so I really see a lot of the role of my job is to make that easier for people. Ultimately, a top-down approach to telling people how to gather is not going to be effective. What you have to do is to invest. You can't force it. I always say that people never do what you want them to do. You design a space, they'll use it how they want to, not how you want them to. And so I really view it as, you know, in my role, I really view my job as creating a foundation, creating the conditions that make it easy for people to gather and form those communities. And I think that the kind of hope here is that we are starting to see it's a big task to do that.

23:42It takes resources, time and money. It happens at a very grassroots scale, but it's always made easier when there is larger support for it. And, you know, in May of 2020, 2023, the Surgeon General did release a report declaring loneliness an epidemic. And that was a huge step in actually finally naming what's been occurring for many years now. Also, what's been interesting is we have seen with the COVID response money, the bipartisan infrastructure bill, the American Rescue Plan, that there has been a lot of funding into health. And in that, we actually saw finally that they're actually, when they put out the parties for that health, that they understood that investing in communities and creating a strong community and creating community gathering places actually had positive health outcomes.

24:31And it was one of the, really the, the kind of first that I've seen on such a large scale, that identification within funding. And so we're actually now at this point though, where a lot of that initial funding and that, that funding funded a lot of our work. I've seen so much work funded by the COVID response money that has gone to incredible community-based places for gathering. And I think the challenge now is as that money starts to kind of reach the end of its cycle, and we kind of move from a COVID recovery to going back to the way things were, is we need to learn from that lesson. The fact that we identified that after a pandemic means that we need to continue doing it because it us more resilient for future crises.

25:13So there's like a very big hope there that it happened, but I think also a call to say that we need to continue keeping this at the forefront of our minds. You've mastered the technical side, the numbers, the strategy, the execution, but there's a variable you can't quite solve for. The X factor that some people just seem to have, And in truth, it's not magic. It's methodology. For 18 years, the Art of Charms X-Factor Accelerator has decoded the science of influence and persuasion for analytical minds like yours. Not with personality types or cheap psychology tricks, but with proven systems that deliver results fast.

25:53In just 12 weeks, you'll develop elite-level rapport-building skills, natural charisma that draws people in, and advanced networking abilities that create opportunities before others even see them. Special Forces operators use it. Fortune 500 executives swear by it. Because for nearly two decades, it works. Implementation sessions, group coaching, and a money-back guarantee that puts our reputation on the line. The X-Factor Accelerator, because soft skills shouldn't be your toughest challenge. Head over to unlockyourxfactor.com to apply to join today. Accelerate relationship building to make an impact at unlockyourxfactor.com.

26:34So I'd love to time travel a bit back to that first pop-up, because one of the things that we chat about with our clients in hopes of finding a third place or creating one themselves by hosting their community members, neighbors, etc., is feeling really intimidated and overwhelmed with the idea of trying to pull something like this off. And you pulled off a successful pop-up. So as this was forming as an idea, what were your thoughts around organizing, setting up, and how did that process play out? It's a great question. And at times it wasn't easy. but we did it step by step. So actually one of the very first things that we did once we had this idea and we kind of thought this would be really interesting and cool.

27:13We, we want to talk to people. So we want to know like, okay, were you just imagining this? It's just kind of a couple of our brains or, um, you know, is this a larger thing that other people are also experiencing? And so we actually took a, about, I want to say 17 degree day in December. We went to Cambridge, Massachusetts. We brought a couch. We brought a rug, a coffee table, and some hot chocolate, and a giant chalkboard. And we sat, we set it up in a park, in a public plaza. And we invited people to come sit down. And on the chalkboard, we just wrote, I wish I had a place too, and let people fill it in.