Effective Communication Tools For Top Tier Leadership | Brett Crozier

24:47And most in business never have, you know, a combat type scenario. So I think you're right. You have to use the other 99 % of your time to build that trust, put that trust in the bank and stuff, as they say. So when you have to, when you have to make those life or death decisions, they're going to trust you're going to do your best to make the right decision. They're not going to question you. But it takes time. And, and, and I think you should lead, I think with all that in a perspective, you have to know how to lead in combat, but I think you should also stand. You're not, you're rarely, if ever in combat.

25:15And most, most leaders aren't in combat throughout their entire career. You know, there's definitely life or death situations. There's definitely times you're making decisions that affect how you operate and there's always a high risk environment. So it's not saying you don't make important decisions, but, you know, truly in combat, we were talking about doing calculus on whether you're going to lose sailors or how many sailors you're going to lose. That's a rare occasion for most leaders, obviously, which is good, which is what we want. We don't want to have to be making those kinds of decisions.

25:42So that's not a bad thing. Now you mentioned the leadership training you received in the academy. I'm curious to hear that moment as a leader where the training wasn't enough and you had to trust your instincts and you had to really lean into this leadership role um i know for a lot of young leaders listening there is this this gut check moment where the training the mba program didn't cover that we don't know what to do next but we have to trust our instincts and make an important decision what was that like for you uh can you paint a picture of the scenario and how you worked your way through that as a leader yeah i mean i think you go back to how do we train leaders whether it's the Naval Academy or other leadership forums.

26:25There is obviously no, it's not, it's not engineering. It's not a science, right? There, there is a science to it, but it's mostly, I would argue tends to be more art than science. So it's like, how do you teach someone how to paint? And while one, you give them, you try to give them a broad experience and a broad foundation that focuses on maybe successful traits of other leaders. I used to like to read a lot of biographies about famous leaders. You know, I love reading about Admiral Nimitz and, you know, what, how he grew up through the ranks and lessons he learned along the way. And so you're really just kind of building that base.

26:59And, and then I think it's important as a leader to understand too, what your strengths are. There are, you know, some folks that are more introverted than others and they might lead in a different style. There's others that love to be, they're great communicators and, and, uh, you put them in front of a crowd and they can get them to do anything they want. Um, there's some that are very analytical and like the science in the math and there's some that are more intuitive and they tend to rely on, you know, understanding their advisors and making those kind of, and so, you know, there's no, there's no one path or one right way to be a leader and you have to stay true to what works for you.

27:32And, and so I think as you study other leaders and you study the, the fundamentals of leadership, it, that might not work for you. It might be something different. So, uh, I think that's important as you go along, you develop as a young leader, knowing you're going to have your own style. If you approach it that way, then when something happens, you're not necessarily trying to go to your playbook and try to look up the recipe for how to solve a problem, because it's never going to be there. You're going to fall back on, okay, yeah, maybe you might think about, okay, maybe what would Nimitz have done in this situation?

28:01But more than likely, you've just kind of, you developed a way to think over the years and how you approach problems and what your core fundamentals are. And that's generally where I found that, you know, when in doubt, you know, I, I defaulted to those types of decisions. So I think in my career, I learned early on that, you know, if you focus on your sailors, you focus on the people that, that you're leading, which I think is the number one fundamental of any kind of leadership role is you're taking care of your people. Um, and if you take care of your people, then they're going to take care of everything else.

28:31Um, but I found that, you know, if you, if you focus on that and you make sure when you make decisions, it stays true to that fundamental. you can really help drive the culture and you can really, I think, you know, build a, a superior organization. And I think countless times when faced with a decision on a carrier, whether I was the XO or a squadron CO, and I always try to default to now how, you know, all right, I'm making a policy decision here that'll affect the command. How will the sailors be impacted? You know, this isn't a give everybody ice cream candy kind of thing. You know, that's not what, that's not what your folks want.

29:05They want to be, you know, led given the resources they need and held accountable. But if you're making an arbitrary policy, because, you know, example would be you have, you know, one or two sailors get in trouble for something, right? They, they get in trouble because they came in after curfew. Well, you could, you could then make a decision to say that, okay, we're going to, we're not going to let anybody go out or we're going to make curfew even earlier. And then you, you have to kind of step back and go, well, there's, I've had two sailors out of 500, 1 ,000, 5 ,000, why would I make a policy that's going to impact thousands of people because I wanted this zero defect mentality?

29:41So for me, it was, I knew a core belief for me was as a leader, you're taking care of your people. Let's think about how you're taking care of them. What would be the impact if I were to arbitrarily punish 5 ,000 or 2 ,000 or even just two people that worked for me because of the one or two that made a mistake? And that kind of helped me, I think along the way. And I think with that, I built an effective organization. I was mindful of the impact of their time. I was mindful of the impact on our mission because it all relates together. I think, again, leadership is science and art. There's a lot of art, and it's also very personal based on your own skill sets.

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33:44And ideally, if you've made a decision that is controversial and you get pushback on it, if it's a surprise you're getting pushback, then you probably didn't think long enough before that. You still might have made the same decision. It still might be the right decision. But ideally, along the way, you've had advisors or you've opened yourself up to that feedback before that moment. And so we make decisions every day, all day long from what you're going to wear to work to, you know, which, which way you're going to drive to work. And, and ideally we have feedback mechanisms in place that, you know, whether it's my wife that tells me whether I should wear what I'm wearing or not, or, you know, my app on how I get to work or at work, you know, feedback from the veteran clients who, you know, we focus on at my nonprofit job right now.

34:27And you've got to make yourself approachable and you've got to seek out, I think that feedback. You've got to build a command where feedback is expected. not just desired. And, and if you do that, I think you can really grow quickly. So as a leader, you know, not just within the organization, but also as a leader, you've got to, to ask yourself how, what are you doing to make sure you're getting feedback, who you're surrounding yourself with. And I used to, you know, one of the things I talk about in the book a little bit, we had a saying that was, it's called NKR, not quite right. And so I'd, I'd speak publicly or I'd speak in front of the large group.

34:58And at the end, I remind everybody, hey, you're all part of the same team. We're going out to do this mission. I need your feedback. You know, things are not quite right. NKR, I need you to let me know. So the point being, for those that are following along and know how to spell, you know, not quite right is NQR and NKR is not how you spell it. But you say it a couple of times and initially they're like, that's the captain of the ship. I'm not going to tell him that he's misspelling not quite right. you know maybe it's me and and that was true i mean first couple times i did that i didn't get any feedback i kind of got it come smirks but and then like the third time i did i had a sailor that stood up and said hey sir you know nkr is you know not the right way to abbreviate not quite right it's nqr and i'm like you're absolutely right i use the moment obviously to compliment him and say yep that's exactly what i want you know you guys all have a valuable role on this team i need your feedback um so that if i'm going the wrong direction you gotta let me know And you have to, when you get that feedback, even if it's wrong, even if someone tells you you're doing something wrong or you're going the wrong direction, but you know, you know, you're right.

36:04You can't discourage it. You can't bite their head off. That feedback is so valuable. It almost trumps whether what they're telling you is right or wrong, because you want that environment where you're going to get that kind of feedback to allow you kind of sharpen, give you that self-awareness and really ultimately allow you to achieve your mission more effectively. way. I know as a leader, part of my understanding of that feedback, especially in those moments where you had to make the decision, you believe the decision's right, that feedback gives you an opportunity to understand where your team's coming from and where their gaps might be, or where there was a miscommunication.

36:38Maybe you weren't clear in what your description of that goal or the mission was. So even if that feedback is wrong in terms of what you should have done, it's still valuable to understand where that team member is coming from, where their head is, and how in the future you can lead more effectively that one team member or the group. Yeah, it's just that it's that whole communication, you know, going both ways thing. And, and you're absolutely right. I mean, you can't assume that everyone's gonna understand you. Clearly, you can't assume you understand everything going on. It's impossible. You know, a large ship, large squadron, large organization with hundreds or thousands of people.

37:14You know, the reason you have that many people is because it takes that many people to get stuff done. And as a leader, you can't do it all. You can't only do one person's worth of that. So you better understand where they're coming from, understand their challenges and understand you might not know what their challenges are. And so you better have that feedback mechanism and your leadership style that allows for that. And I found that to be true all the time. I was always amazed. I'd put something out over our speaker system on the ship as an example. And I generally repeat myself like every day.

37:44So I'm, Hey, we're going to talk about our schedule. I tell the sailors what ship, you know, what port we're going to go into, you know, Hey, we're going to pull into Guam. And I tell them again the next day. And then I'd walk around the ship and, you know, in my mind, I've done a good job of communicating. You know, I took the time to come on the speaker system that, that was in every space on the ship. So all 5 ,000 people heard it, whether they wanted to or not. And then you walk around the deck plate or, you know, in the cafeteria, the galleys, we call it in the Navy. And you talk to a sailor and you're like, Hey, you excited about pulling into Guam?

38:14and they look at you like, oh, I didn't know we were pulling in, sir. I'm like, I just like in your mind, like, I just told you that twice, didn't I? You know, but it's a good reminder that, you know, you, you really can't over communicate, I think. And, um, and it's not mean you have to say the same thing the same way every time, but there's less risk in over communicating and there is an under communicating and to be effective, you communicate, you get feedback, you communicate again, and you kind of build that message. And, and with that, you build the culture I think that you're after. But yeah, I was always trying to be open and getting that feedback and making sure no matter how much I did or didn't want it, you took it with a smile on your face and you welcomed it and recognized it.

38:54The win really was that it gave you the feedback. When we think about the military and its hierarchy and discipline being such a core tenant of it, that NQR almost flies in the face of what we think of the military, which is take the orders, listen to the command. It's not your time to question, just to enact accordingly. So how are you able to preach that with military training or doctrine that sometimes run counter that, especially when you think about being in a situation on a boat together where you don't want to be speaking up in the wrong and then letting down 5 ,000 people on this city that's floating around the world?

39:30Obviously, as a leader, you're setting the example for the crew and you're building the culture. And I think particularly the military, a leader can have more influence on the culture and successful mission than any other position. And that's true certainly on the outside as well in the non-military roles. You have to accept, I think, and be confident enough to know you're not always going to be right as a leader. I think you also have to be comfortable and confident enough to demonstrate that. So I had my sons, one is already out of the military as he's in the Navy better and the other son is in the military.

39:59It's sometimes interesting to see their perspective and hear them come home and talk about what they had to do for the day and the idea of what did you do today? And he's like, well, I, you know, we swept, we swept the, the courtyard all day in the rain. I'm like, why did you sweep in the rain? Well, I don't know. They wouldn't tell us. We just, that's what we were told to do. Did you tell anybody? Oh yeah, we told them. They just said we had to do it. Quit asking, quit asking, you know, this is your order. So I know it exists. And I know that I can't expect that everybody, uh, every leader out there is going to have the time or patience, um, you know, to explain it or, or communicate in a way that's, you know, that might instill a little more trust, I guess, and confidence.

40:38But as a leader, as you get your, as you become more senior, it's incumbent upon you to demonstrate and exemplify what you expect from your other leaders beneath you. You know, I knew as a CEO, if I was short-tempered and I yelled at people in public, man, I just gave permission to like 5 ,000 other people to do exactly that. So again, err on the side of kindness, err on the side of being patient, err on the side of accepting criticism publicly. Ideally, that's going to translate down the ranks as it were. There's the trickle down effect. Um, but I knew it wasn't perfect. I knew that, you know, you have, you have to be patient to knowing you have leaders that are learning beneath you.

41:12You know, you might be a division officer and have a chief working for you. So you're the officer in an organization. You have a chief petty officer, a senior enlisted that works for you. That's given some of the day-to-day orders and they might be a little more short tempered in their style and delivery. Um, it doesn't mean you allow them to be toxic or yell people, but you have to use the opportunity as well to mentor and develop your leaders. So it's, you know, whether that's set an example, if you're in a high enough position or sometimes it's just the mentoring day to day and, and pulling people aside and saying, Hey, you know what?

41:43I know you think that's effective, but I got to tell you, I don't, I don't think you're going to, that's not an effective style. In fact, we'll, you know, lose people. And now that I'm in a non-military position, I see that even in the, in the outside. And I think it surprised me a little bit at first when I see very senior people in the nonprofit world that tend to be short-tempered and yell at people more than I ever, maybe I ever saw in the military. And then I kind of take a step back and go, the rallies, they just haven't had the benefit of a lot of leadership training that I had throughout my career.

42:14They haven't had any good maybe mentorship or feedback along the way. But it's absolutely something I have to address because otherwise in this line of work, people can quit and leave. In the military, you can't take for granted just because people can't just quit and walk off the ship that you can take advantage of that. I think it's more incumbent to treat them with respect and communicate that way. I found even in the nonprofit world, there's leadership challenges and development requirements to be effective. I address some of that stuff more than I thought I would have to, but it's good. In the book, you write about, I think, your ultimate NKR moment, a very pivotal moment in your career with COVID striking and you and your role in command of the USS Theodore Roosevelt.

43:00Can you walk us through that moment, your decision-making process and how you dealt with the NKR? Yeah. And that's kind of, you know, it ends up being towards the end of my career, maybe the culmination of all these things I learned through almost three decades of service. and you know, we were in a spot like the rest of the world trying to figure out what COVID was all about. Um, what was the risk? What is it, you know, what's the impact? And so I found myself, I was the CEO of the Roosevelt. Like you said, it was March of 2020, um, through maybe a port call or through other means we were exposed to COVID to where I had some sailors that came down with it.

43:38And remember, this is before vaccines is before we even had adequate testing available. Um, the military was doing a good job of trying to react, but like the rest of the world, we were still trying to figure out what was going on. And we were watching the stuff kind of starting to ravage parts of the world with some pretty high fatality rates for, for at-risk populations. Obviously on a ship, um, the things we know of now is terms like social distancing and quarantining are pretty hard to do. Uh, if you ever spent time on a, on a Navy ship, But there's, there's, in some cases you have 200 people in a single birthing compartment.

44:12So, and they're, you know, everyone's an arms distance away. So there is no such thing as six feet of separation. It's impossible. So when we had COVID and we were, and, you know, we had already reported it and we were, we pulled into Guam on the ship. So we'd stopped our operations. We pulled into Guam and it became, you know, obviously our number one priority, our ship's number one priority was, okay, how do we deal with this before the spreads? And we'd watched other ships, other cruise ships, other cities across the country that were dealing with this in Washington spread very rapidly. And we were running our own analysis.

44:45You know, and I care you have an entire medical department. You've got doctors, you have lawyers, you have. We actually had a epidemiology team on board to help us analyze it at the time that happened to be on board because of what was going on in the world. So we were, we were being very deliberate about our planning, certainly concerned enough as we watched it spread, trying to get sailors off the ship if they were positive, trying to quarantine those that were close contact. It's almost a fool's errand in that, you know, within like a couple of days, we had all been within close contact. There's no other way about it.

45:18And we were just running into resistance due to, I think, what we call sometimes the fog of war. Um, you know, the theory being that what happens on the front line, by the time that information gets all the way to senior decision makers back in DC as an example, um, it's slow, it's cumbersome and the information they have might not be accurate. We were faced with a little bit of that. We were seeing firsthand the impact. I was seeing the sailors that had it. We were tracking the numbers and we were getting resistance, I think, for a variety of reasons. Some of it foreign policy, some of it was trying to negotiate with Guam to get our sailors off into proper quarters.

45:52We knew, as we know now, the only thing we can do to really stop it is to quarantine folks and stop the spread. And we knew by stopping the spread of COVID that we could minimize the impact and the fatality rate. And we didn't know what it was. I mean, sailors are generally pretty healthy, but even 1 % of 1 ,000 is 10 more than I was willing to sacrifice. And we knew our numbers were going to be close to 2 ,000 or so positive cases if we weren't careful. And that's about where we got. Um, and we, you know, eventually we do unfortunately lose one, uh, a chief as a, you know, chief hacker, who was one of our chiefs who succumbed to the COVID.

46:29So through all of this, we were really pushing hard to get the sailors off the ship. We were trying to communicate that up the chain of command. I think everybody, and I say this in all honesty, I think everybody wanted what was best for the sailors on the ship. Um, but I knew that no one wanted as much as I did. Like no one spent every day, you know, side by side, building that trust, that confidence with these sailors. So I knew that, you know, that not only am I the ship and ultimately accountable for everything that happens on that ship. I knew that, you know, my number one job, like it had been throughout my career, was take care of your people, take care of your sailors.

47:04So for me, that was my focus. And in the end, we weren't getting the response we wanted. We were watching the numbers increase. We were watching the risk therefore increase. And I ended up just sending a very pointed email after we had exact point exhausted all our other options, um, to my, to the leadership. And it was the people within my chain of command, like, Hey, you know, I'll, I'll take full accountability for this. But at this point, all I care about is we have to remove these barriers. I have to get these sailors off the ship. I have to get them off the base and I have to get them in proper quarters.

47:35And so I knew as well, I was rocking the boat a little bit because I was, that was my NKR moment that, you know, things were just not going right. and what we had had in place at the time, our normal decision-making process seemed a little bit slow and cumbersome. And some of that I own. I mean, part of me is how well I communicate up the chain as well as down the chain to my sailor. So I own some of that, but I knew that, you know, I needed a method and a way that I could quickly communicate to the powers that be. So I wrote the email to a very small number of folks in my chain of command and asked for the help, which sometimes as hard as a leader to ask for help because you're, you're, you're trained to be a type A warrior to get stuff done.

48:13Um, but I knew I, at that point I needed help. I couldn't remove the strategic barriers. I couldn't work the foreign policy aspect with Guam. And I sent the email, my NKR moment or red flare signal for help. And, and I got the help. Um, I lost my job in the end result because I think I, as I rocked the boat, people were frustrated with how I handled it. Um, but at the end we got the help we needed or accelerated the help we were getting, I think is the other way to look at it. We got the sailors off the ship. We put them in hotels, we quarantined them. And then about six weeks later, they got back to sea, but they got back to sea without me because at that point I'd been fired by the acting secretary of the Navy, who was the one I think who was probably dealing with pressures that I can only imagine from the administration at the time.

48:57And I'm often asked like, would you do it again? And I say, yeah, I mean, knowing what I knew at the time, um, yeah, I'd like to think I'd do it again because it was fundamental to me. It goes back to what you had asked earlier. There's no textbook for this. There's no script on how you handle a world pandemic or what you do when you feel like you're not getting the help you need. But I knew then I fell back on my core beliefs as a leader. It's about taking care of people. And I figure if I do that, I keep my head high and I'll do all I can. Even if I get fired as a result, so be it. I'll get them the help they In the chain of command, if everyone has a lot of anxiety going on or everyone is worried or everyone wants a certain thing and you move to allow that to happen in order to fix something or to alleviate the pain or anxiety that everyone's feeling, only doing what you think is best in the moment with the information that you have.

49:52And then the possibility of learning after that, that that decision was wrong or has caused more difficulty and anxiety than was induced. And then backtracking on that, that turn.

50:19What? We're pulling in the Guam? Yeah. I mean, and I, you know, I fully recognize that it was chaotic, not just obviously, you know, off the ship, but around the world. And we were all trying to figure out how we handle it. I, you know, I, I made it not just for my sailors. Obviously, I thought, you know, in some regards to, you know, the, the blowback on the Navy, if we had lost 10 sailors to COVID would have been detrimental. Um, and so in some ways I was looking at the organization, but, but in the day as a leader, you know, you're going to make the best decision you can ideally for the right reasons.

50:49It might not be perfect. Um, and you might face heat for it, but if you're making it for the right reasons, you're making it for something you believe in, then I think you can stand by it. And at the end of the day, I mean, I lost a job that I love cause I could, again, any job where you can fly helicopters, fly fighters, drive the ship, uh, be well taken care of is it's a, it's a tough job to leave no matter whether you had it six months or six years. But at the end of the day, I mean, what's more important is that you stand up for what you believe in and you stand up for the core beliefs you had as a leader along the way.

51:19Otherwise, it's all for naught. If you suddenly turn your back on your beliefs to that point, well, then they weren't really beliefs to begin with. You're just kind of bouncing around like a ping pong ball. So there was no clear guidance. You're only making decisions without any sort of any fundamentals to stand on and then losing that job. It's like how many other different ways it could have been done, how you would have done it, how you would change things. If you stand on your principles.

51:52Due to my training and if I had the same decision to make again, it's going to go down the same way. And I can feel good about that. Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. And and, you know, nothing's black and white. Right. I think is the more you find yourself in leadership positions, it's it's shades of gray at best. Um, so there was no easy answer. I mean, I, I did at the time what I could, I got counsel from my peers and, uh, medical folks and everybody else. So I knew I wasn't just, you know, writing an email in a dark corner somewhere. I mean, I had people around me when I wrote and sent it.

52:24Um, but again, I knew I could live with it. And, you know, I think it's unfortunate that it went down and the Navy got some blowback for the decisions they made. And I think it's, I want to follow up too, because I think it's important for those that didn't follow the story after we're, you know, we moved on to other stuff. So in the end, the Navy took pretty good care of me. I didn't get back in command. I didn't get the ship that I loved and was part of. But, you know, they gave me a good job. I kept flying fighters and helicopters. I lived in San Diego. And so I felt, you know, I think that was kind of the epilogue of the story, so to speak, is that I, you know, they didn't fire me.

52:57I mean, they fired me from that, they removed from the ship and the command, and that was unfortunate. And certainly that created a lot of the drama. But at the end of the day, I think, you know, they understood why I made the decision. and they might have, some might have disagreed with it. That's okay. That's how it works. But I had a great job. I had a lot of responsibility. I had a big team I was working with and kept flying fighters and helicopters. And, you know, retired two years after that. And with, you know, my boss and admirals and friends and family there and, and the Navy for us, you know, like I said earlier, my sons were in the Navy and one still is, it's still like a family business for us.

53:31So, you know, I'm proud of the time on there. And, And I look back at this as a teaching moment for me, but also a lot of other people too on, on leadership and particularly when you're at that kind of crucible of a decision. Did you ever imagine that it could end in that fashion that, that they would fire you from command? I think me, I think I knew I was rocking the boat. I mean, I, to the point of when I hit send one of those moments, if you write the email, I'm like, wow, this is, this will be interesting to see how this plays out. Um, I, I don't know that I, in all honesty, I didn't think I was going to be fired at the moment.

54:01I knew that I probably wasn't going to continue in my career trajectory and go on and make Admiral. I knew I would rock the boat enough that, um, that would probably mean the end. I would peak at that job and I'd retire after. So, um, it def, if I underestimated anything, it was probably the political reaction. Um, cause ultimately I was fired not by the Navy. I was fired by the acting secretary of the Navy. Um, and again, who's that's, that's how the military works too. We have civilians in charge for a reason. And he was, he was empowered to do that if that's what he thought was a requirement.

54:32And I don't, you know, I might disagree with his decision, but I also understand that he's making his decision based on the influences at the time. Yeah. I think it's important perspective to have in mind because in that moment, you know, this is something that you've preached to young leaders as a principle you live by, but then you're actually confronted with this exact moment in your career that has the potential to end in a way that could wipe that away from you. I think a lot of times it's easier said than done. It's easy to talk about these principles. It's hard to live these principles.

55:05I think that example really crystallized it for me in the book, just how important it is even understanding the stakes. Yeah. I'm not going to say it's just a job. It's a career. It's a profession. I dedicate my life to it. At the end of the day, you're there to take care of people. You're there to be a leader. The question becomes, is that what's more important? There was a path I could to follow to minimize the rest of my career. And that was just to kind of follow along and go with this, what I thought was a pretty slow bureaucratic process. To what end though? Then I'd be, maybe I'd make Admiral or maybe I'd be a senior offseat, but maybe at that point fundamentally would have gone against everything I'd believed up to that moment.

55:47And that might have been, I would argue that's much harder to live with in ways than it is just to take a stand when you think it's important for the right reason and then and then deal with it and reading the book uh upon flying jets and helicopters and uh the carrier i was like you got to play on all the best toys and uh that that we have yeah it was it was a fun it was a fun career i mean obviously ended with that one moment but when i look back in total um i mean i it's i would i have no regrets it was a phenomenal feel lucky to have served and do what I did with the people I did it with. One thing I'd like to touch on, obviously talking about jets, helicopters, and captaining a ship, the complexity of what we're talking about here, right?

56:32These are complex decisions impacting up to 5 ,000 sailors. There's a lot that goes into it and it's easy to overanalyze, overthink, and there's a cost to that overanalysis and overthinking. So how did you approach these really complex decisions and situations in a way where you could act on these principles that you have and not find yourself indecision, anxiety, and not being able to work your way through when necessary. Yeah. And they, you know, they say the enemy of good is great. And that if you're always trying to get the perfect decision and solution, then you'll, you'll miss all these other opportunities and probably spend the wrong amount of time trying to analyze.

57:13I mean, I think data is important. I think you need to have some foundation by which you make those decisions. As you get more experience though, now you're relying on that experience and that, and this, you know, your intuition that you've developed over time as well. And I think that's why you don't take a, a young supercharged, you know, Lieutenant and put them in charge an aircraft carrier. They just don't have the same experience and arguably you'd set them up for failure because they don't even have that analytical ability. Um, over time, over, you know, when you learn how to think as a leader, as you spend that time along the way, I think you have to, the data is important.

57:48I think you want to make most of your decisions with some kind of data or information that still allows you to be founded. But you also have to trust your instincts. You have to trust your intuition. I think to be honest, maybe as a pilot, as a helicopter or a fighter pilot and combat missions, I think maybe that gives you a sense of confidence and an ability to know that you face things that are many times much more risky and you've just had to rely on intuition and then training. Um, and that I think sometimes gives you the ability to then, you know, when you're in those decisions, those bigger decisions that affect a large organization, make the right call.

58:21I mean, I find it even now, like I'm, we're faced with decisions as an organization and, and we're just totally overanalyzing it. In my mind, I'm thinking, you know, no one's going to die from this if we get this wrong, or no one's going to care if we pick the wrong menu item for Sunday brunches or something. Um, so in those cases, you know, It's like I don't want to spend my time making these kind of decisions. I want to think about the big decisions. And I feel comfortable enough to be intuitive about what the right things are to do. But when you get to those, that's where I think the TR decision with COVID was, it was a decision that was going to impact 5 ,000 people or more.

58:58There was a lot of data, but it wasn't the perfect amount of data. I definitely had to rely on a little bit of intuition and the advice of all the team I built around me, the docs and the analysts. and then you make your best call you can, and you just kind of have to, if there's a chance to make the decision and then adjust fire, if it's a decision that's reversible, then you can make a decision and you can always go back. And so that was a big one. I think in general though, I mean, oftentimes in society and even in military, we tend to want to make decisions as if they're all irreversible. And there's a whole theory on type one versus type two decisions.

59:33Not all decisions are irreversible. Now, if you're in combat dropping a bomb, that becomes pretty irreversible. Once you push, you know, you pickle and you drop the bomb off your airplane in most cases. So in general, though, when you're making decisions and staff or you're making decisions on where the ship's going to go, they're not irreversible. You have the ability to get a lot of advice, but you also don't need to spend 100 % of your time to get that perfect, great solution. It's probably 80 % is probably good enough because you want to spend your time on those other irreversible decisions when they come up.

1:00:05And that is a tough, again, I go back to what we said at the beginning. I mean, we're, we're overwhelmed with information these days. We have so many analytical tools and, and database managers and stuff. And, and it becomes hard. If you're trying to always make that perfect decision, you might never make a decision. Uh, or when you finally do, you've ignored three or four other things that needed your attention. Um, and as a leader, we vote with our time and I think you have to know how to prioritize. So when you're, you know, use the data that's available, use the intuition you have, seek advice and counsel.

1:00:35Um, but again, this is where, I mean, the decision-making as a leader is one of the most important things you do. You know, you make decisions and how you do that relies on all the things we've talked about today. Trust, relationships, feedback, data, you know, your core moral principles. Um, and ideally, you know, you get it right. You won't always get it right. But, you know, I think if you understand how to prioritize and you understand what it takes to make a decision, you'll, you'll do okay. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and your NKR moment with us. We love asking every guest what their X factor is.

1:01:08What do you think makes you unique and extraordinary? I've learned at an early age just, you know, that, that no one's better than anybody else. I think that I approach every relationship like I've got something to learn more than I have something to give. And I think, um, that allows me to approach relationships, whether it's espresso in Italy or, or, you know, sailors on the ship or even veteran clients that I have in the, in the shelter I work with now where they're coming off the street. You know, it's very easy to look at somebody who's been living on the street for months on end and get them in a shelter and, and think that they have nothing to teach you.

1:01:43But, um, I think, I think you'd be surprised. There's a lot to learn from everybody. So I try to approach every relationship as if I got something to learn. Um, I hope I can give something back, but in the end, I, I, I think everybody has something to share and there's, uh, that's, that's kind of in my strategy. I don't think it's unique. I think probably there's others that do that as well. But, um, so that, and I'm a very mediocre surfer. So that's, you know, I've got a lot to learn there too, despite the title of the book. Well, hopefully you have more time to surf now. Yes. I'd, some days I wish I had more, but it's, uh, I surf when I can and make the most of it.

1:02:16Well, thank you for sharing these lessons and learnings with us and our audience. Where can they find out more about the book and the work that you do with your veteran charity? Yeah. If you go to a surf when you can.com, you can, um, the book's released June 13th. You can buy it from the website or you can go to Barnes & Noble on Amazon. And if you go to that website, I've got a link to nonprofit causes that are important to me, whether it's Veterans Village of San Diego, where I work now, or others, I think, that are a way to give back to those in need. So, yeah, I encourage you to check it out and find what motivates you.

1:02:47And if you like the book, let me know. But hopefully you guys enjoy it. We did. Thank you so much, Brad. This is awesome. All right, guys. Thanks a lot.

1:03:03This week's shout out goes to Stuart. Stuart writes in to tell us about his experience with the X-Factor Accelerator program. He writes, Our team was working on a project, and we had one person who was making everything much more difficult than it needed to be. They were constantly causing delays and issues, and it was becoming a huge problem for us. That's when I decided to turn to the Art of Charm for help. The tools and skills that I learned in the program were invaluable, and I was able to galvanize my team and get everyone on the same page. We were able to isolate the problem, document the issues, and constructively work together to find a solution.

1:03:39I've also learned how to approach difficult situations with a level head and positive attitude. Thanks to the Art of Charm X Factor Accelerator program, we were able to overcome this obstacle and complete our project successfully. I cannot recommend this program enough to anyone who is looking to become a more effective leader and work towards achieving their professional goals. If you listen this far, my guess is that's because you want more out of life and finally succeed at work loving life. The X Factor Accelerator is where high-achieving, like-minded people meet, strategize to unlock your hidden X Factor to make sure that you get the most out of life's opportunities and unlock those doors keeping you from success.

1:04:19Imagine what you can accomplish with coaching and mentorship with the art of charm. What are you waiting for? Join us today at unlockyourxfactor.com. All right, before we head out, a huge thank you to our producers, Michael Harrold and Eric Montgomery. Until next week, go out there and have an epic week.

1:04:50And you sold the world You sold the tragedy Cause you had your taste Of black on the yesterday Yeah, but I remember you Oh yeah, I remember you It was a bad, bad, bad I remember you